The Daily - 'The Run-Up': The Grass Roots, Part 1

Episode Date: October 29, 2022

This moment in politics will be defined by shifts at the grass-roots level. Today, we talk to conservative voters about the forces animating the midterm elections for them — and what Washington can learn from the people. What do you think of “The Run-Up” so far? Please take our listener survey at nytimes.com/therunupsurvey. “The Run-Up” is a new politics podcast from The New York Times. Leading up to the 2022 midterms, we’ll be sharing the latest episode here every Saturday. If you want to hear episodes when they first drop on Thursdays, follow “The Run-Up” wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple, Spotify, Google, Stitcher and Amazon Music.

Hi, everyone. It's Astead. Every week, you listen to us. Now we want to hear from you. We're asking you to fill out a listener survey about The Run-Up at nytimes.com slash therunupsurvey. Whether you've listened to all of our episodes or this is the first one you're hearing, we want to hear your feedback.

Again, that's nytimes.com slash therunupsurvey. nytimes.com slash therupserva. nytimes.com slash therunupserva. Thanks. Hey, it's Michael. Today, The Run-Up, our show about the midterm elections and how we got to this fraught moment in American politics. Last week, we told the story of how the Republican establishment has methodically taken control of systems of power, systems that are now being taken over by a hardened Republican base, increasingly pushing the party toward extremes.

Today, in Episode 8, we hear from the base itself. Take a listen. Hi, this is Ted Herndon from the New York Times. We'll try to call you back later. Hey, you there? Oh, hey, I thought it was the voicemail. Are you there? It was. I was outside. Okay. Hey, is this Belinda?

How are you? Yes, I'm good. I'm good. Thank you. I want to thank you for picking up again, even though it was a surprise. Do you mind if we record this for our show? And tell me, and what's your first name? Is it Stefan, you said?

No, no, it's Estead. A-S-T-E-A-D. first name is it stefan you said no no it's a stead a-s-t-e-a-d so yeah it's the we talked over the summer um right after you took that times polling right okay and we're going back to talk to the some of the voters and you have all um do you get a response from conservatives and liberals and everybody yeah i mean we try to talk mean, we try to talk to everybody. We try to talk to everybody. Anybody who'll talk to me, I'll talk back. Okay, all right. Okay, let's go. I appreciate it. I mean, we're kind of asking similar types of questions as we did last time. But one of the things I remember from our previous call was that, you know, like this time, you were pretty skeptical

of participating or talking to media. I'm curious, I want to start there. Like, how do you consume your politics news? How do you consume? You mean, where do I get the information? Yeah. Where do you get your news from? Where do you, who do you trust?

No one. I don't trust anyone. I don't believe any of, totally of what I hear. I really don't accept, and my husband's the same way, we don't accept anything anymore. We question everything. Was it always like this, or has that changed? No. I used to watch, when we got married 40 years ago, I watched the NBC News Today show every morning with Tom Brokaw and the cute little blonde. I can't think of her name.

Every morning. That's who I watch. They were not so liberal or maybe I was not so conservative. I think both. I think we've both changed. I think they've both totally gone to the left. And now I've gone to the right. And now I've gone to the right.

Is it just media where you have that skepticism? Or has that skepticism grown in a lot of areas? No, it's in the whole country. I find, I think, the behavior of most of... Usually in the lead up to a midterm election, the people you want to hear most from are swing voters. They're the ones most likely to decide an election and which party holds control of Congress. But the thing about the midterms this year,

the thing that makes them historically important, is that they're about much more than which party wins. They're about how the parties are changing, what they're becoming, and who they feel most accountable to. And while that can include swing voters, it's largely the base, the grassroots. Today, in part one, grassroots conservatives in their own words. From the New York Times, I'm Astead Herndon. This is The Run-Up.

How would you describe yourself, just generally, to someone who's never met you? Very conservative, very Catholic. Let's see, how else would... Motherhood was my greatest joy in life. Let's see, a wife, joy in life. Let's see, a wife, a daughter, a sister, very family-oriented. So I guess I'm going to be your typical profession lady. I don't know. I've only had one marriage, been married for 43 years. I mean, I believe in family values. I believe in what comes from the gospel. So I try to live a straight forward at a Christian life. What would you say are the things that matter most to you? When I pray my rosary, and I don't know if you're familiar, there are five decades to the rosary. Do you know what I pray for the first decade? My country. That's how worried the second decade is for my family. But this country, the way that the country is changing is really, really scary.

Have you always been a conservative? No. I was raised a Democrat. When did that change? So let's see. I probably changed in my 20s, which would have been in the maybe in the 80s, I guess. By the time Ronald Reagan was there, and he would say things that really, really, really made sense. He said, I used to be a Democrat, but the Democrat Party left me. And I thought, well, I wonder what he meant by that.

And then I started paying attention. And then what really, really got me was when Obama was in the White House and the whole health care thing. So that made me start. We started going to meetings. Oh, you said, but I thought you were interested in Republicans around the Reagan era. But then you mentioned Obama. Were you voting for Republicans around the Reagan era, but then you mentioned Obama. Were you voting for Republicans all through that time, or were you still voting

for Democrats? Yes, pretty much, and I never voted for party. I even voted for Clinton the first time because I really wasn't paying attention to... I was just really ignorant. I was not tuned in. Is that the last Democrat you voted for for president? Oh, it's got to be. Yeah. Yeah. And that was just one time. Yes. But that skepticism built more when Obama was in office. You're calling it skepticism. It's not skepticism. I'm always looking for the truth. I search for somebody who's going to tell me the truth. There's a deep, deep, deep unrest in this country, at least in my state, in my area.

People are very, very suspicious of what the government's going to do. The things that the government is doing with the Justice Department is just making no sense. So please, it's too light to call it skepticism. Please don't do that. Okay, I guess I understand that. I'm asking really, where did, and I don't want slowly in different areas, I began to distrust at least 30 years ago. But it started to culminate in your vote in politics when? I can say for sure under Obama. I can say for sure. You know, my father's actually a Christian pastor. I've done a lot of gospel reading myself. Okay. Well, didn't it move you to see how things could be? No, it's interesting because I do think about how religion shapes people's political views. I mean, I'm thinking about how it's informed your conservative viewpoint.

I grew up in churches, you know, of black churches. Right. That would also be praying for the country. Okay. Yeah. And so I can see, you know, I understand how religion affects faith and the way people view politics. I guess I'm asking you for you, is there a specific time when you felt like your religion compelled you to act politically? Or even in this moment, how is your religion

shaping how you view the midterms? Let me just ask you one thing when you brought up the black thing. Do I come across as racist? when you brought up the black thing. Do I come across as racist? Oh, I wouldn't say that. But I'm curious, do you think you come off as racist? I hope I don't. You talk about black churches. Some of our best friends have been black around here, and they don't understand. They don't understand. And I'm in the deep, deep south, okay? They don't understand why the rest of the country is acting like race is a big problem because they don't think, they don't think here that they have an issue.

Do you think race is a big problem in the country? Oh, yes. Oh, now I do. Absolutely. Oh, sure, sure. But it's been manufactured. So, okay, so how does religion affect me? I guess abortion is the main thing that's coming from my religion like that. But then again, it's the truth issue.

Jesus, he was always searching for the truth. And I know prayer works. I know that it helps. And that helps me to feel like I'm doing something for this country when I can pray for our country. And when we go, there are certain of us that go, I mean, many people in my church go to daily mass. I just try to go to one a week. Let me tell you, we voice our intentions. And when they literally say what's on their mind, it's for honesty is what they're asking for. It's for people to actually, for the Democrat or the left side or whoever, whatever you want to call it, the left side to

say, I want them to actually experience an abortion. I want them to be there and watch it on the screen and see what happens to that child, especially when it's a late term abortion. what happens to that child, especially when it's a late-term abortion. That's what I would like to see. I would like for them to see. And then they probably wouldn't give me an honest answer, like it didn't matter to them or something like that. And that's fine. But just on their conscience, I would like for them to think about it and see what they think. Can you tell me a little more about your midterms vote in November, though? Like, is there any candidate you're deeply hoping pulls it out? No, no, there's nobody. No,

no, there's no. Oh, deeply hoping. I would say Arizona, Carrie Lake. I would say, oh, who's the, oh, in Georgia, the Herschel Walker. I hope those two really do. How do you square what you just told me about abortion with your enthusiasm for Herschel Walker? Now, you see, you picked that one instance right. You see, that's why you- I'm just curious because I've just been reading a lot of stories about what he has allegedly done. That's why I usually don't talk to people on the left because that is what... No, no, no, no, no. I'm just asking you a further... Okay, I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you.

You have picked that one, and I don't know how much of that is true. I like what he says when he talks about being a patriot. I like what he says when he talks about what he wants to do for the country. I like that he is plain spoken, that he doesn't do a lot of fancy talking. I just like the way, I believe his heart. Let me say that. I believe his heart. And I think that's what the left gets wrong about the right. Those people who go out and protest at abortion, which I've never done at clinics, but I pray, I do pray that they close. I do, because I do think abortions are wrong, but that doesn't mean that I think everybody

who's had an abortion is wrong. People can make mistakes. My gosh, I've made many, wrong. People can make mistakes. My gosh, I've made many, many mistakes in my life, but I can ask for forgiveness. So don't, please don't put me, you know, why don't I hate Herschel Walker because of this stuff that's coming out for him? I think right now, and obviously out of the two, who would I vote for? Come on. That's all you vote for is the best person, right? I guess as my last question, I actually wasn't even, I mean, that's one piece of it. But I'm also thinking about how much you talked about truth. And at minimum, Walker is a candidate that has not been honest about a sort of events from his life. of events from his life. And I'm wondering how you square that view about the need for politicians and truth with the reality of a candidate that has not provided it.

So what are the options? Don't vote? What are the options? Vote for Warnock? I have talked to people who are thinking about voting for Warnock and Kemp. Those voters are true in Georgia. There's people who sit out the race entirely and vote by sitting out. I guess I was asking you about all of those options. I mean, you're saying you would still make that affirmative choice for Walker.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, yes, absolutely. He talks like Trump in that he talks about his love of the country. I don't know if the left understands that about us. That's what we love about Trump. And let's see who else talks like that. Oh, Jim Jordan, the representative. They truly, I feel like they truly, truly love this country. John McCain, his big thing was, and I reluctantly voted for him,

his big thing was, I know how to work across the aisle. I don't want you to work across the aisle if it's not right. I don't want you to compromise if it's not the right thing to do. So, I don't know what else to say. Hello, my name is Ested Herndon. I'm a reporter with the New York Times. I was looking for Michael Sprang. Speaking. Thank you so much for picking up. I write about politics and I host our politics podcast here at the Times called The Run-Up. We are calling some Americans who participated in Time's political polling in the hopes that they have five, 10 minutes to talk with us about how they're viewing politics right now. Do you have that time?

Do you think we could chat? Yeah, let me move from where I'm at, but sure, go ahead. Yeah, I really appreciate that. I just want to start kind of easy, learning more about you. What do you do for a living? And tell me just about yourself and kind of what drives your interest in politics, if you have it.

Yeah, so I'm a senior engineering technician. I am a Navy veteran, a father of four, uh, just your typical average guy, I guess. And I live in Jackson, Michigan. I do typically have a party that you have associated yourself with or typically voted for. Uh, no, I, I voted for Barack Obama and I also voted for Donald Trump. So, you know, I just I tend to go after or go for who I feel can do the job best. And is that Trump in 2016? Or do you mind if I ask about 2020? How did you vote now?

I voted for Trump both times. I'm not a Trump fan, per se. I think he's a narcissist. I'm not a Trump fan, per se. I think he's a narcissist. But as compared to, you know, the disaster we find ourselves with now, I am definitely not a Biden fan. I wasn't when he was a vice president, and I'm sure as heck not enjoying what he's been doing since he's been a president.

You know, in political journalism, you represent a type of voter that we know is super important. Someone who voted for Barack Obama, but then went over to Donald Trump in 2016 and 2020, particularly in states like Michigan. I'm curious, before I ask about now, what led you to make that transition from Obama to Trump? I really liked Obama. I really liked some of his policies and some of the things he... I mean, even the DREAM Act. The DREAM Act was, okay, we're going to give you some time here. We'll see if things work out and maybe, you know, it'll lead to a path to citizenship rather than just saying, oh, well, hey, just everybody come on in and do whatever you want. I was a little bit more,

you know, his handling of some of the racial issues, I think he missed the prime opportunity to try to help bring more togetherness between the races. I mean, he's half white. His mother was white. And I think if he had stressed that more and tried to bring the sides together more, rather than saying things like, that guy could have been my son, and it's like, well like, well, that drives a little bit of wedge. I really think that was a missed opportunity there. And I wish I wish he had filled that gap a little more. Was were those moments of like racial division during the Obama era? You're saying those are some of the reasons why you think some division spread through the country? I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're saying about that.

division spread through the country. I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're saying about them. I think, I think, yes, I think that that was kind of the beginning a little bit of, and of course it got worse under Trump. And then, you know, now with, with Biden basically saying, you know, anybody who doesn't agree with me is, I can't remember how he put it, you know, threat to democracy, I think is what he said. You know, it's just, if you take the Obama years, that was kind of, I think, the beginning of the breakdown to where the divisions started getting really deep, not only along racial lines, but also along political lines. And then the beginning of the Trump presidency, you know, when all of a sudden you had half the Democratic caucus saying, oh, well, not my president. And they started these endless, ridiculous

impeachment proceedings. And I think it's just gotten worse. One of the big discussions for this midterms has been how Republicans have nominated candidates who, like Donald Trump, have denied the results of the last election. What have you thought about that? I don't, I really want to believe that the election was not stolen. I don't think that the fraud could have been widespread enough to overturn it. That having been said, I am a firm believer that we do need to secure our elections, because whether or not there was enough fraud to overturn the election, any fraud is unacceptable. So the Republicans who have been nominated, some in Michigan, who have denied the results of the

last election or even defended the actions of January 6th, what have you thought about those statements? Okay, so the election denial part, it has no impact to me. I mean, they're allowed their opinion. I don't give that much weight. You know, Tudor Dixon has said at times that, you know, she didn't think it was a free and fair election, which I can agree with that statement. I don't think it was a free and fair election. I just don't think there was enough interference or enough fraud to return it. I get what you're saying. You're making a distinction between what we have heard from some Republicans about there being enough fraud for the election to be stolen. You're not sure

about that. You kind of seem to say that that's probably not true. But because you think that there has been fraud or you want the elections to be, quote unquote, secure, them saying those statements doesn't turn you away from voting for them. No, because regardless of why they want to do it, if they secure the elections, I'm fine with that. Regardless of their motivation, I'm fine with their goal. I guess I should put it that way. What about the January 6th part? I think it's largely overblown. I mean, yes, it was a terrible thing that happened. But when you weigh it against the riots of the summer and all of the violence and stuff there. I don't think it was any serious attempt to overturn the government or, you know, they didn't go capture any congressmen or anything

like that. I mean, yeah, it was a riot that got out of hand. Do I think it was, you know, treason? No, not really. Just thinking about Republicans, I'm just curious of how you, I mean, you describe Trump as a narcissist, but Donald Trump is also very much the leader of the Republican Party. I'm curious as to you, who believes both those things, how you wrestle with that. I have this dream. And my dream is that Trump is playing the Democrats and that at the last minute he's going to say, oh, no, I'm not actually running. I'm just going to throw my weight behind this guy, which would just be awesome because, like I said, I am not a Trump fan.

I think there are other people, like I do like DeSantis. I do like some of the things DeSantis is doing. Governor Abbott is another one. I've got, you know, he's heading in the right direction. Really, I would just like to see Trump back off. I mean, like I said, I do not like the guy. And the only way I would vote for him in 24 is if it's him and Biden. If it's him and Biden again, you would vote for him again?

I have no choice. I think Biden is completely running the country in the wrong direction. And if they ran somebody like Manchin, I really liked Manchin. You know, he stuck to his guns. You know, he kind of waffled a little bit there at the end. But that's the kind of politician I'm looking for. You know, But that's the kind of politician I'm looking for. Someone who is willing to go against their party if they believe that it's not serving the interests of the country. Yes. Who do you track that anxiety back to? Whose fault is that? And then, in that same way, what do you expect going forward?

What's your look ahead? Well, I think there's plenty of blame to go around. I don't think either side is blameless. But if I had to put the weight more solidly on one over the other, I would probably weigh it against the Democrats. Why? Only because, well, because they just, they seem to think that money grows on trees.

I mean, we can't keep spending a trillion dollars here and a trillion dollars there and send $2 trillion to Ukraine or, you know, invest in gender studies and all that. I mean, we need to get our house in order. But, you know, Donald Trump raised the deficit. Is it cultural? How do you balance those economic concerns with some of those cultural concerns? I think...

Oh, God, how to put it? I think the cultural concerns are largely overblown. I'm not saying that racism and sexism and homophobia and stuff like that don't exist, but I don't think it's as bad as people are trying to make it. We have made, just in my lifetime, we have made massive strides in, you know, cultural equity, acceptance for, you know, the LGBTQY+, I think. I can't keep up. You know, the acceptance there is a lot better now. And so I think we've made massive strides. But like I said, if we don't get our financial house in order first, everyone's going to suffer.

I'm going to ask my last couple of questions about Michigan. In that race between Dixon and Whitmer, have you decided? Yes. I don't like Whitmer at all. And I think she's been ineffective in the state. But really, what was my, and this is so silly, but what was my deciding factor is she is running some of the most dishonest political ads that I've ever seen. What do you mean? So she has one ad where she talks about, oh, I got Michigan's kids back to school. Technically true, but she's the one who took them out of school in the first place. You know, and that was an absolute disaster for my kids.

Michigan also has an important abortion referendum on the ballot this year, right? I'm curious of how you thought about the Supreme Court's decision and then separately, do you have a plan on how you're going to vote in that referendum? So the Supreme Court, I think what they did was absolutely correct. It was a ruling based on law and it didn't really change anything. You know, people say, oh, that took away women's right. No, it didn't. All it did was it put the discussion back in the states where it should have been in

the first place. You know, it puts the power back in our hands. I am pro-life, but I'm not, you know, I'm not militant about it. I might have considered voting for Proposition 3, but there are a lot of things, I think it goes way too far. You know, it could be construed as to allow abortion all the way up to birth, you know, and things like that. I'm like, it needs to be better defined. I think the bill is too broad in its reach and I will probably vote against it. But if they were to clean it up and put forward a better bill, you know bill, I understand abortion sometimes is necessary. I mean, in cases of where the mother's life is a threat and things like that.

But I just think Proposition 3 goes too far. So to clarify, it seems like you're voting for Dixon and against Proposition 3 is that right yeah I think that'll probably be the way I come down I wish we had better candidates We'll be right back. I'm talking to William Robertson, right? Correct. Awesome. So the first thing I would ask is just where do you live and what do you do for a living?

I live in Georgia, Atworth, Georgia. You live in Atworth, Georgia. Uh-huh. How many political ads are pummeling your television as we speak? Oh, man. I'm sick of them. No matter which channel you're on. I mean, it's insane. Are you someone who considers himself a Democrat or a Republican? What's your relationship to politics? Republican.

Proud. Proud black Republican. A proud black Republican. For how long? Since the Reagan years. Oh, wow. So you're an OG. I'm curious as to how your relationships to politics has changed, if any, over the last couple years.

How would you describe the difference in politics from that Reagan era to now? To now? Oh, my God. Now, it's... The political landscape itself has changed. You know, there was a time that, I don't know, in my mind, I guess it was kind of like, there were the people and then there was the government.

And now it's like, it's just the government. The people don't matter anymore. And it's just over the top. It really is. It's over the top. How would you describe, like, when? I mean, do you trace that back to any point? When did the people, in your words, kind of lose that voice?

I think that the people lost their voice in the Obama terms. Yes. What do you mean? Why would you say that? It was, this is how we're going to do it. We're the government. Just shut up and do as we say. And that's it. I mean, it's just like, you know, that's it.

I mean, doing, I remember all of the discussions that I would have with friends doing Obamacare. And I would just simply make one statement and people would go ballistic. And I would just simply go, who pays for it? I don't know if y'all don't realize this or not, but the government is not a money making machine. They make money one way and that's from taxes. So who pays for it? And at that point, I think a lot, quite a few of my friends thought that I had, uh, I had a few that would say, well, it's obvious you've forgotten where you come from because of the fact that I

just didn't go along with it. And, and then I used to, sometimes I would ask them, okay, so give me this then. Where is it written? Where is the law that says if I'm black, I have to vote Democrat? Because apparently I missed that law. And now I feel that a lot of the, especially the black candidates that run on the Democrat side, they feel like it's an automatic, that if I'm Black and I'm a Democrat, then the Blacks are going to vote for me. And that's not the case at all. And it's just like, you know, I was talking to one friend the other day about, you know, Stacey Abrams. I was just like, you know, it's not an issue of her being Black or woman. I just don't like her message. Why not?

Bottom line. So, huh? I'm just saying, what specifically about her message rubs you the wrong way. What specifically about her message that rubs me the wrong way? It's kind of like the message from all the other Democratic candidates is that this is our plan. This is what we want to do. And that's that. And then I always go back to who pays for it. I mean, who pays for it? We do. We're the ones that pay for it. So I'm a formal truck driver. Okay. So as a truck driver, it's, it's plain and simple. If I used to drive a truck and I was paying $2 a gallon for fuel, and now I got to pay $6 a gallon

for fuel, I can't make any pay $6 a gallon for fuel. I can't make any money. I'm not out here driving just so that I have something to do to weigh out my dream. I actually am driving to provide for my family. I got to make money. And so what happens? If the cost to move the goods go up, who pays for that?

The shipper, the guy that I'm going to go pick up your commodity from, I'm going to charge him more. So he's going to charge the receiver more. And who's the receiver going to charge? The consumer. It's plain and simple. Everything comes by truck. So how do you bring the trucking cost down?

You bring the trucking cost down by bringing down the cost of fuel. So let's look at what was going on. Biden takes office. He goes into office. Putin has got troops sitting on the border. Biden cuts the pipeline, says he's going to kill fossil fuel. So where do we buy our oil from now? Iran?

All right. I Iran? Saudi Arabia? And Russia? Got you over the barrel, dude. I can make my move. I can do whatever I want to. And there's nothing you can do about it. Because y'all gonna pay. If we're

buying Russian fuel, Russian oil, then that means we're actually paying for Putin's war. I get that point. While trying to supplement Ukraine. It don't work. No, no, no, no. I get your point about fuel. I get your point about the economy, specifically when it relates to trucking. Is that your top issue for you? Have your political decisions been economy driven?

Hey, I'm feeling it, bud. I'm feeling it. I mean, everything costs more now. Everything. Everything. I mean. How do you balance that reality of the economic choices you've been forced to make with other issues, with cultural issues, with democracy and the kind of January 6th stuff we see? How do you balance the priorities that you have to weigh in order to make a voting decision? Well, I look at when I look at Trump. From day one, it was their goal to do everything they could to hinder Trump. Look at what what could have been accomplished. If both parties would actually work with him versus working against him. Because I'll be honest with you, there were quite a few Republicans that were in Washington at the same time that was doing everything they could to battle Trump as well. And sometimes I feel that the big message that they're trying to get across to the American people that no one is talking about is, if you're an ordinary Joe, if you're not a part of the

political circle in Washington, don't you come up here, because this is what we'll do to you. We'll destroy you. But yet, you know, I'll ask my Black friends that are diehard Democrats, I go back to the old Reagan question, so are you better off today than what you were two years ago? And they go, no. And I go, well, guess what? They go, what? You voted for this. So be quiet.

Be quiet. Yeah. The Reagan question, again, though, was, if I remember correctly, was specific to the kind of economic point, right? Right. And I get that. But people could be worse off in terms of the political environment around them.

I want to ask, like, a kind of reductive question. Okay. Like, at the basic level, a lot of people violently stormed the Capitol, some of which, you know, had Confederate flags, had nooses at the Capitol, and made it their explicit intention to block the transfer of power in the United States.

Some people were crazy. Some people crazy. How do you look at that, particularly as a black man in Georgia? And it seems like you're saying that still doesn't rise to the top of your voting priorities. No, it doesn't, because I think there are more important issues that's affecting people's lives day to day.

As a black Republican, why do you think 85% of black people vote for Democrats? I wish I knew the answer to that, man, because then I could figure out how to change their minds. I really do. I don't get it, man. I don't get it. Because, I mean, I feel like sometimes the Democratic Party is the most oppressive party that there is.

I mean, they literally, I mean, and now it's to the point, but here's the thing that scares the Democratic Party now. This is what scares them, is the fact that a lot of the black vote is moving away from the Democratic Party. So now they get nervous because, let's face it, they've made a lot of empty promises to the black community. Now that part's undeniable. That part's undeniable. They've made a lot of empty promises to the black community. So eventually you get to the point that black people, we just simply ask ourselves, okay, well, you know what?

I can keep giving them my vote and expecting a different result. Or, you know what? I can try the other party and see what happens. You're in Georgia, a state that has a lot of critical races in this year's midterms. You mentioned how you feel about Stacey Abrams. How do you feel about Herschel Walker? Herschel, well, you know what? Herschel ain't my first choice.

He really was. I mean, Calvin King was my man. But that dog didn't hunt. But that's okay so now i gotta stand i gotta get behind herschel because one on nah nah run out he's fake i mean here's a man that claims to be a pastor but yet you're a man of god and you said that abortion god's okay with abortion well you, you know what, I'm a Southern Baptist, born and raised, cornbread fed, brother. Where do you find that in the Bible? Because I

ain't found it yet, you know? And usually, I can see how you can make that argument with a typical Republican on the other side. I can see how you will vote for that Republican. But in this race, we have evidence that Walker has helped pay for an abortion. How do you wrestle with those facts as someone of faith who seems to be voting for a candidate who has shown a hypocritical stance on that issue? Well, but you see, it's kind of like, I believe in redemption. It's kind of like, I believe in redemption. If at that point in your life, at that stage in your life, that was a decision that you made. And now you realize that if I had to make that decision again today, it would be different.

I can give you that. I can give you that. And if you're okay with the high gas prices, if you're okay with the high crime rates, and if you're okay that right now the Democrat Party thinks that it's more important for us to try to indoctrinate your child at three years old, I mean, in kindergarten or third grade, that they can decide whether or not they can be a boy or girl. If you're OK with all of that, then you vote for Warnock. You're not OK with that, then you're going to have to vote for Walker. Because the only way that Washington is going to understand is that the people in power have to be taken out of power. That's the only thing that wakes them up. Anything other than that, then it's like a referendum to them.

Hey, the people are okay with this, and now we're just going to push the envelope even further. If the Democrats win, I don't see the Democrats pulling back. I don't. They've gone too far. Too far. And to me, and this is the thing,

and this is how I look at it. Here's a basic question for you. How do you change the course of a nation? You tell me. How do you change the course of a nation? Because you got to remember that. When you're trying to change a nation, that's a long

man's game. That's a long man's game. That's a long man's game. It ain't going to happen overnight. Old dogs like us, you know the old saying, can't teach an old dog new tricks. So how do you change the course of a nation? You influence the mind of a child. That's how you change the course of a nation. I think you're implying something here that I would rather just use. Like if that's what you're saying, and I want to know what you're saying.

Are you saying Democrats are changing the country through children? That's correct. So, yeah, so we got to change. I mean, I'm hoping for change. I'm hoping even if the,

and this is the part, like I said, it scares me the most. Even if the Democrats remain in power, and if they do, it's just going to be by a razor's edge. I don't think they're going to change course. I think their take at it is, see, they are behind us, and they're just going to keep pushing further down the road. And they're just going to keep pushing further down the road. And I'm afraid that the way that they're pushing the division with race and the LBT, they're just looking to drive us further and further and further apart.

And the people then, they get more and more frustrated with each other because they feel like there is no answer. It's like we're so far apart, as far apart as night and day is. And that ain't America. Well, thank you, William. I appreciate your time, you know. Thank you. Even an honest, searing critique can be illuminating,

and I appreciate that. I still like you. I still like you. Feel free to call me anytime. Ah, great, great, great. Good to hear. Thank you so much. Hello. Hi, my name is Ested Herndon. I'm a reporter for the New York Times. I was looking for Alan. This is Alan. I host our politics podcast here at the Times, and I have been calling people who participated in Times polling to see if they have five, ten minutes to talk about why they answered the way they did and hopefully record it for our political podcast. Can we talk right now? Sure, why not?

Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, I first would love to start with just some basic information about just where you live and what you do for a living. I'm in Phoenix, Arizona, and I'm a computer systems engineer. Awesome. You all have a computer systems engineer. Awesome. You all have a lot of deeply important races out in Arizona that I'll get to in a second. But just before that, I'm curious as to just how do you view politics right now and kind

of what your sense is of the mood when you think about the political landscape? Well, it's hostile. It is a battle between two completely different ideologies. I'm conservative, so you know where that puts me. There appears to be attacks on all fronts, but for the most part, the economy has really been, you might say, destroyed by the policies, by the administration. So it's really put us behind the eight ball. And that's just the beginning. That is the biggest problem as far as recession goes and the economy goes.

How do you balance your economic concerns with more cultural concerns? Are they equally important? Is one more important than the other? Well, I don't know if we can exist without either in a balance. If we destroy our economy, everything else is going to fall eventually as well. We have to be strong. We have to have our priorities in order. And in some ways, we definitely need to get back to letting parents raise their children, not pretending like the school teachers can be the parents to and make decisions for them.

That's really gotten out of control. The fact that sexuality is hyper-focused now and why we need to be so concerned about people in their deviations is just silly. Why do we need to teach a five-year-old about homosexuality? Why do we need to ask them if they feel like a boy or a girl and then give them an option to change what they feel like as opposed to letting them be who they are until they become an adult and then they can make decisions on their own. So everything is just going down a path, in my mind, that is wrong.

year, many of whom have taken up Donald Trump's grievances about the last election and the validity of last election. I'm curious how you thought about both that last election and about the slate of Republicans, Kerry Lake, Blake Masters, who are on the ticket now. Yeah, I have to say that they at least have the right ideas as far as what we need to do to clean things up and get things moving forward again. Do you think the 2020 election was fair? No, I don't. And the fact that Biden got more votes than Obama, Biden, he had no popularity. There was no excitement about him. It just makes absolutely no sense. Trump won the key states that would normally

guarantee a win. This is the first time that I believe you could win the states he won and lose. One of the things we reported on about Arizona was that candidates like Lake and some of the down-ballot candidates were kind of explicitly taking aim at the concept of democracy, saying that that wasn't important for the vision of America, that, you know, we're a republic and not a democracy. And so that word shouldn't be in the lexicon. What do you think about that? Well, of course, we're a republic. You can't just you can't just go mob rules. Right.

Is that how you view that concept of kind of 50 plus one democracy? Well, yeah, you just can't say that. That would just be like you have 51 people that, you know, believe one way and 50 that don't in the 51 win every time. Isn't, I mean... And when you get a large populations in cities which are basically democrat they're gonna win they're they're the numbers it's just the way it is that's why they've opened the borders to the south because they've done this in california california used to be a red state now it's blue hispanics have become the larger population. And that's what they're trying to do with the rest of the country. The have-nots are going to be

the majority. When you hear as Democrats, and a lot of media say right now, that democracy is on the ballot, what's your reaction? Nonsense. If they think that voting for them is going to save our democracy, from what is what I want to know. Republicans aren't a threat to democracy in no way, shape, or form. They are, if anything. I mean, I think Democrats would use stuff like the 6th. I mean, media and jurors. I mean mean, the sixth was a big action that struck at the transfer of power at the seat of government. Not really. It wasn't an insurrection. There was not an attempt to take over the government. That's just as silly as it gets.

And there's just more and more evidence that if people are paying attention to what's going on, that there was absolutely nothing behind that. If we can take back power, then it's going to lead back to prosperity and we can stop a lot of what's going on with Biden's executive. on with Biden's executive. We can investigate a lot of the stuff that's been going on with the FBI and the persecution of parents who are trying to stop CRT and all the other things that are going on in schools. It sounds like you're saying that the midterms are your first step of really striking back, you know, if we think of 2020 as a loss of Republican power. leak of 2020 as a loss of Republican power. Yeah. And from there, we just have to focus on the presidency. And if these elections aren't fair, if there's some way that they are, again, compromised, then we really have a problem because then you don't have a free country anymore. a free country anymore.

What I hear from Alan and other grassroots conservatives is a clear articulation of grievances that began long before Donald Trump entered American politics. They talk about defending the country

from a threat that goes far beyond economic concerns, that traces back decades, and especially to the Obama years. This came up over and over in our conversations, sometimes in language we won't repeat. But the deeply held nature of these grievances only makes them more politically important. They shape this year's Republican candidates and will power its incoming class. And they add up to a belief that voters themselves articulate, that defending the country is the highest priority, even if democracy itself stands in the way.

Next week, we hear from voters on the other side. The Run-Up is reported by me, Astead Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez and Caitlin O'Keefe. It's edited by Franny Carr-Toth, Larissa Anderson, and Lisa Tobin, with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and Alisha Ba'i Tu. It was mixed by Corey Schreppel and fact-checked by Caitlin Love. Special thanks to Paula Schumann,

Sam Dolnick, David Halfinger, Julia Simon, Mahima Chablani, Shannon Busta, Nell Gologley, Jeffrey Miranda, and Maddie Masiella. Catch you next week. To hear more, go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for The Run-Up, and hit subscribe.