The Daily - The Walz-Vance Debate: Civility and Then a Clash

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

Just three weeks after Kamala Harris and Donald J. Trump engaged in a fiery and often hostile presidential debate, their running mates, Tim Walz and JD Vance, met for their own face-off — and struck a very different chord.Reid J. Epstein, a politics reporter for The Times, explains why this debate was so different and what it could mean for the race.Guest: Reid J. Epstein, a politics reporter for The New York Times.Background reading: Read coverage of the debate.Analysis: Mr. Vance strained to sell a softer image of Mr. Trump.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Soon, you’ll need a subscription to keep full access to this show, and to other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts.

From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily. Just three weeks after presidential candidates Donald Trump and Kamala Harris engaged in a fiery and often hostile debate, their running mates, JD Vance and Tim Walz, met for their own debate and struck a very different chord. Today, my colleague, political correspondent Reed Epstein, on why this debate was so different and what it could mean for the race. It's Wednesday, October 2nd. Okay.

By the way, Reed Epstein has the largest barrel of M&Ms that I've ever seen. You should have seen the bag of Sour Patch Kids that I bought. To get through debate night. To get through the VP debate night, you need some Sour Patch Kids. Yeah. Okay. Let's make a show. Let's make a show. Read up, Steve. Sabrina. So, it is now 1217 a.m. We are sitting in the studio. You have brought me some M&Ms, which I'm very happy about. And, you know, there's a sort of conventional wisdom in presidential elections that vice presidential debates are

not that important. Usually, by this point in the campaign, you know, voters have had a lot of time to get to know both the top and the bottom of the tickets. They're pretty well decided about how they feel about the candidates. But this year is different. We had one candidate drop out, Joe Biden. Kamala Harris, the current VP, moved to the top of the Democratic ticket and very quickly chose her running mate, Tim Walz. And on the Republican side, Donald Trump announced

a new running mate in JD Vance. All of this, of course, happened very quickly in the course of two months. So going into the debate, what did we know about these two VP candidates and what they were bringing to their tickets? Well, let's describe a little bit about who these people are. The first to be named to the ticket was JD Vance, the Ohio senator who was first elected just two years ago.

Vance wrote a bestselling book in 2016. Hillbillyology. Hillbillyology. And he ran for the Senate in 2022. He's relatively new to national politics. He has a relatively undistinguished Senate career as most new senators do. Relatively short. And he's only 40 years old, which is young to be on a national ticket. How would you describe him? He brooks no quarter. He is a very smooth articulator of the Trump agenda and seems to always be fighting in

a way that clearly pleases the former president. And what about Walls? You know, Walls had a long career in Minnesota politics and a long career as a public school teacher before that. Former high school football coach. He grew up in Nebraska. He was named to the ticket in part because he was good on television articulating the Democratic agenda and fighting back against some of the ideas that animate Trump and JD Vance. And he, of course, coined the idea that they were weird and that their ideas were weird at a time when that idea spread across sort of the entire

democratic universe. Okay, so both candidates were picked in part because they're good communicators for their side. So in tonight's debate, what was their primary mission? What was their job? Well, their first goal was to not make any mistakes that can be weaponized against them. The second goal was to make a case against the top of the opposing ticket. Okay.

And the third thing they needed to do was to make themselves appear as plausible and credible presidents of the United States and commanders-in-chief. And that was especially acute for JD Vance since his running mate is 78 years old. So how did they begin? We're going to begin tonight with the Middle East. Margaret, thank you, Nora. So the first question was about the conflict in the Middle East between Israel and Iran. Governor Walz, if you were the final voice in the situation room, would you support or

oppose a preemptive strike by Israel on Iran? You have two minutes. Well, thank you. And thank you for those joining home tonight. And Tim Walz did not sound at all sure of himself in his answer. Israel's ability to be able to defend itself is absolutely fundamental. He seemed to confuse Israel and Iran in describing their actions. Now the person closest to them, to Donald Trump, said he's unfit for the highest office. That was Senator Vance.

He was sort of slow in his manner of speech. He's paused a couple times. ...the defend itself is absolutely fundamental. He used the word fundamental four times in that opening answer. I noticed that. Fundamental, fundamental. But what's fundamental here is...

It did not look great for him at the start. And as the vice president said today is, we will protect our forces and our allied forces and there will be consequences Governor your time is up senator Vance the same question and Vance Seemed very polished. I want to answer the question But I want to actually give an introduction to myself a little bit because I recognize a lot of Americans Don't know who either one of us are He opened with his biography my mother required food assistance for periods of her life.

My grandmother required social security help to raise me. He sounded more folksy. And he answered the question in a way that Walls didn't. It is up to Israel what they think they need to do to keep their country safe. By saying that Israel is our ally and will stand by whatever decision they make. I think that's the right approach to take with the Israel question. Where Walls sort of talked and talked and didn't really respond to the question. Yeah, he didn't land an answer, whereas Vance did.

Vance did. And Vance also sounded like he knew more about the situation in that moment than Walls did, just by the nature of his presentation. Well, to that point... The economy is a top concern for voters. One of the first issues that really popped for me was this issue of the economy. And Vance kind of comes out of the gate and really just does this thing that Trump failed to do in the debate with Harris, which is, you know, put his finger on this idea that the working class had been shafted by the political class in the United States.

Right. Now, Donald Trump's economic plan is not just a plan, but it's also a record. A lot of those same economists... So Vance lays out a fairly compelling case about how all the experts that the government had relied on over the years were wrong about international trade. But those same experts for 40 years said that if we shipped our manufacturing base off to China, we'd get cheaper goods. They lied about that. They said if we shipped our industrial base off to other countries, to Mexico and elsewhere,

it would make the middle class stronger. They were wrong about that. And about manufacturing and about engaging with Mexico and China. And Vance talked about how that hurt the middle class in small towns like where he grew up. Donald Trump had the wisdom and the courage to say to that bipartisan consensus, we're not doing it anymore.

We're bringing American manufacturing back. We're unleashing American energy. We're going to make more of our own stuff. And Vance probably had his strongest moment of the debate in this discussion. And he did a compelling job of explaining Trump's vision in a way that really sanded the hard edges off of Trumpism in general. This has to stop. And we're not going to stop it by listening to experts.

We're going to stop it by listening to common sense wisdom, which is what Donald Trump governed on. Senator, your time is up. Governor Walz, can you address that? And how did Walz respond to that? If you're listening tonight and you want billionaires to get tax cuts, you heard what the numbers were. Look, I'm a union guy on this. I know he gave the standard response to Trump's economic plan from the Democrats

Give they said that he would give tax cuts to billionaires Donald Trump was the guy who created the largest trade deficit in American history with China, and he talked about Trump just trade deficit in American history with China. And he talked about Trump losing a trade war with China when he was president. I'm not a guy who wanted to ship things overseas, but I understand. He didn't really engage that much in Vance's argument that the experts let us down this path, but he tried to make an argument against Trump's economic policies in general. And he kind of was struggling. I mean, he doesn't have a great case to make because inflation is high and housing prices

have risen and, you know, the economy is generally a weak point for Democrats. It's a weak point, but it's one that where they're getting better, but walls did not make a crisp case on their behalf here. So Vance really looked on stage like he just was kind of breezing along and, you know, he was delivering these arguments that were really the Republicans' best issues. He was doing them well. And you know, just generally, he was owning the stage.

Walls wasn't really breaking through at all. Until you got to the issue of abortion, which you and I were watching this together, Reid. It was about at the 44-minute mark. 44 minutes, almost exactly midway through was when the first question about abortion came up. But look, this issue is what's on everyone's mind. This is an issue that the Harris campaign wants injected into the bloodstream of every conversation. Donald Trump put this all into motion.

He brags about how great it was that he put the judges in and overturned Roe vs. Wade. 52 years of personal autonomy. And Walls did quite well here. The fact of the matter is how can we as a nation say that your life and your rights, as basic as the right to control your own body, is determined on geography. He talked about how the Trump argument that this is an issue left for the states

means that human rights are different depending on what state you live in. There's a young woman named Amber Thurman. She happened to be in Georgia, a restrictive state. Because of that, she had to travel a long distance to North Carolina to try and get her care. Amber Thurman died. He talked about women who have died or become gravely ill because they didn't have access

to health care that had been available before the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. And he made this case that health care decisions are best left to women and the doctors that treat them. And what about Vance? What about his response? Senator? It may respond to that. First of all, Governor, I agree with you. Amber Thurman should still be alive, and there are a lot of people who should still be alive, and I certainly wish that she was. Vance gave what was probably the most effective response

available to him, given his and Trump's positions on abortion. That's why Donald Trump and I are committed to pursuing pro-family policies, making childcare more accessible, making fertility treatments more accessible. He talked about giving women options to continue pregnancies and ways to help the Republicans be pro-family. I want us to make it easier for moms to afford to have babies.

I want to make it easier for young families to afford a home so they can afford a place to raise that family. And I think there's so much that we can do. Which has not exactly been their strong suit. And Reed, what did you make of Vance's response though? I mean, it felt like a bit of a sleight of hand that he was doing, kind of like he was performing a magic trick.

He was saying, on the one hand, I kind of feel for women on this issue, but I really support IVF. He was kind of doing this double-speak in a way. Well, and he was trying to explain Donald Trump's position more than he was his own position. He said it is a matter left for the states to decide. He said the proper way to handle this as messy as democracy sometimes is, is to let voters make these decisions, let the voters make these decisions for themselves and let the states set their own

abortion policy. We can be a big and diverse country where we respect people's freedom of conscience and make the country more pro-baby and pro-family, but please... And it was an exchange that Walls really did not let him get away with. These are women's decisions to make about their healthcare decisions and the physicians who know best when they need to do this. And Vance, for the first 45 minutes of the debate, had been in command of the event. And once this discussion shifted to abortion, it was Vance who struggled to explain the

policies of his ticket and Walls who was on offense. It marked a shift in this debate that we saw play out over the second half. We'll be right back. So Reed, you said that the tide of the debate really changed with the abortion discussion right about midway. Where did it go next? What stood out to you in that second half? Welcome back to the CBS News Vice Presidential Debate.

We want to turn now to America's gun violence epidemic. You know, the first moment of the second half was a discussion about gun control and gun violence. Governor, you have two minutes. Well, I thank all the parents watching tonight. This is just your biggest nightmare. Look, I got a 17-year-old, and he witnessed a shooting at a community center playing volleyball.

Those things don't leave you. And Walls introduced this story that he's told a couple times about his 17-year-old son witnessing a shooting while playing volleyball in a community center in Minnesota. It was a pretty raw story. It was, and as he said this, you could see Vance flinch a little bit.

For all the preparations and the practice, Vance had not prepared himself for this moment. Senator? Tim, first of all, I didn't know that your 17-year-old witnessed a shooting. I'm sorry about that. I appreciate you saying so. I hope that you're doing okay. Christ have mercy. It is awful.

He said he didn't know that Gus Walz had witnessed a shooting. And it was a moment of humanity that we don't often see in these situations. It was Vance as a father, not in the way where he talked about his own kids to make a political point, but a way you could see him having real empathy for Walz's son in a way that hadn't come across in any of the rest of the policy debates. It was a fascinating look at how Vance dealt with a real-life situation. But then— Let's turn now to the top contributor to inflation, the high cost of housing and rent.

There was a discussion about housing. There was a discussion about federal lands. There was sort of more about immigration. The discussion was much more policy-based, and it got very in the weeds and wonky. Yeah, I was really surprised at just how much policy was there. It's like I feel like I hadn't heard it in a long time. We're so used to Trump with his own kind of gravitational force, and those debates sound different.

This sounded like an old school political debate where people talked about policy and, you know, were civil to one another. It was less about the personalities of the figures on stage than it was about what they would do in office. Exactly. I mean, it struck me that Vance was very good at repackaging and repurposing Trump's message. I mean, he kind of put it through this, like, you know, civility normalization machine.

And it popped out, civility normalization machine. And it popped out and it sounded pretty good. I mean, Vance is very skilled at making Trump sound reasonable and making his ideas come across in a way that don't sound perhaps as scary or sharp-edged as Trump does when he sort of as a blunt force instrument delivers them as the only possible solution and anyone who says anything different is wrong and anti-American. Right. But he could only go so far. Let's talk about the state of democracy, the top issue for Americans after the economy

and inflation. So where did Vance hit up against the limits of being able to sell Trump's policies? In the same place that a lot of Republicans find themselves at odds with reality, and that's the 2020 election. Senator Vance, you have said you would not have certified the last presidential election. Would you again seek to challenge this year's election results? He was asked if he would seek to challenge this year's presidential election results, even if every governor in America certifies them at the state level. Look, what President Trump has said is that there were problems in 2020.

And my own belief is that we should fight about those issues, debate those issues peacefully in the public square. And Vance tried to pivot. And it's Kamala Harris saying that rather than debate and persuade her fellow Americans, she'd like to censor people who engage in misinformation. I think that is a much bigger threat to democracy than anything that we've seen in this country. He didn't really answer the question. He said censorship is a bigger threat to democracy than Donald Trump saying protesters should peacefully protest the election.

Governor? Well, I've enjoyed tonight's debate and I think there was a lot of commonality here and I'm sympathetic to misspeaking on things and I think I might have with the Senator. Me too, man. There's one though that this one is troubling to me and I say that because I think we need to tell the story. And Walls didn't buy this for a minute. There's one though that this one is troubling to me, and I say that because I think we need to tell the story. And Walls didn't buy this for a minute.

140 police officers were beaten at the Capitol that day. He talked about January 6 protesters. In Minnesota, a group gathered on the state Capitol grounds in St. Paul and said, we're marching to the governor's residence and there may be casualties. The only person there was my son and his dog who was rushed out crying by state police. Not just in Washington, but coming after his home in St. Paul, Minnesota.

When Mike Pence made that decision to certify that election, that's why Mike Pence isn't on this stage. He said at one point, if Mike Pence had not certified the election, he would still be Trump's running mate today. Yeah. Pence had not certified the election, he would still be Trump's running mate today. And then Walls asked the question that JD Vance is unable to answer. I would just ask that, did he lose the 2020 election? Which is, did Trump lose the 2020 election?

Tim, I'm focused on the future. Did Kamala Harris censor Americans from speaking their mind in the wake of- And Vance doesn't answer it. He says he's focused on the future and he tries to pivot back to asking, did Kamala Harris censor Americans from speaking their minds about COVID in 2020? Or he totally dodges. That is a damning non-answer. It's a damning non-answer for you to not talk about censorship. And Walls points that out to everyone watching, and he called it a damning non-answer.

And Vance tried to save himself by saying it was damning for Walls not to talk about censorship, but that wasn't what the question was about, and frankly, it is less of a threat to democracy than the question of free and fair elections. But this whole exchange really illustrated the red lines that nobody in Trump's world can cross, which are you can't say that Trump lost the election, you can't blame Trump for January 6th, you can't say that he incited the riot. And so it was a very skilled moment from Walls, who didn't look particularly skilled for much of the night, to pose that question to Vance, knowing that it was one that Vance couldn't

answer. And that was the last big moment of the debate. And thank you both for participating in the only vice presidential debate of this election cycle. And what did you make of that moment? You know, I think this is the moment that we'll remember from this debate. Vance had spent, at this point, an hour and a half

ably answering most of the questions that came across, and the ones that were trickier, he sort of talked his way through. And then he got what might have been the easiest question of the night, who won the last election, and he's not able to answer it. You know, that idea that he is not saying everything that he knows, or hiding something, or altering his remarks to please someone else is a very dangerous proposition in politics because it suggests that he's not leveling or being straight with people. And if Vance has that stripped from him at this stage, that he can't be trusted on the

basic question of democracy, it's a difficult thing for him to overcome on other issues. But does this have an effect electorally? I mean, are undecided voters actually watching a vice presidential debate? Probably not. But that moment is, as we speak, being cut into ads that the Harris campaign will be showing to people as soon as Wednesday morning. And even though the Harris campaign and Democrats have not pushed democracy to the forefront of their campaign just because voters tend to be more

motivated by issues like health care and abortion. The idea that you can't trust JD Vance to tell you the truth, I think, is going to be one that they make central to the aftermath of this debate. This strikes to his honesty and his truthfulness in a way that can be very damaging. And this debate, like the last one, likely won't produce any major shift in the polls that we see in the next couple weeks. But you have to remember, this is an election on the margins, and we're really talking about a couple hundred thousand voters in the seven battleground states moving one

way or the other that will determine who the next president is. Tens of millions of people will have watched this debate and 70 million people watched the last debate. These candidates to win the election need to talk to just a tiny slice of voters in just a few states. And those are the ones whose judgment will determine the future of the country. Reed, it's late. It's's late. It's very late.

Thank you for talking. I'm going to bed. Good night. Good night. We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today. On Tuesday, Iran fired about 180 ballistic missiles at Israel in what it called a retaliation for Israel's surprise assassination on Friday of Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, a group that is backed by Iran.

The killing of the longtime foe of Israel and the United States shocked the Middle East and was seen as a major victory for Israel. The missile attack sent millions of Israelis into bomb shelters, but appeared to inflict little damage. Above all, the airstrikes upended the assumption among Israelis that the country's increasingly brazen approach toward Iran and its allies would deter Iran from attacking Israel. Tens of thousands of unionized dock workers from Maine to Texas have gone on strike, stranding cargo at many of the country's busiest ports and

potentially disrupting the American supply chain. The dock workers, whose contract expired on Monday, are demanding a 62 percent increase in pay, a number that port operators have so far refused to meet. Finally... support operators have so far refused to meet. Finally, Mr. President, on behalf of the entire Biden family and the American people, happy 100th birthday. 19 months after entering hospice, for what many feared would be his final days, former President Jimmy Carter has turned 100 years old, becoming the first U.S. President to

reach that milestone. Jimmy, thank you for your friendship, your example, and for always finding new ways to remind us that we are all created in God's image. Happy birthday. To celebrate the occasion, You've had a heck of a life, and you're surrounded by people who love you. Several former presidents paid tribute to Carter on Tuesday. May God bless you in your final years. May you have peace of mind and peace in your heart. For his part, Carter marked the day in the

backyard of his home in Plains, Georgia, where four F-18 fighter jets flew overhead in his honor. Today's episode was produced by Stella Tan, Olivia Gnat, Will Reed, and Alex Stern with help from Muj Zayde. It was edited by Devon Taylor, contains original music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood and Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Bremberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. and Ben Lansford of Wonderland.

That's it for the Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.