The Daily - The War Inside the Catholic Church

Episode Date: August 28, 2018

An archbishop has accused Pope Francis of being part of the effort to cover up a sex abuse scandal. What does it mean that the accusation is coming from inside the Roman Catholic Church? Guest: Jason Horowitz, the Rome bureau chief of The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, an archbishop in the Catholic Church is accusing Pope Francis himself of being part of the effort to cover up the latest sex abuse scandal. What it means that that accusation is coming from inside the church. It's Tuesday, August 28th.

So Pope Francis went on a trip to Ireland that was highly anticipated because in May, Ireland took their first steps to legalize abortion. And so that was seen as a huge sign that the Catholic Church in Ireland was no more in a certain sense. He was going to have to try and convince the Irish to come back to a church that had treated them not very well. Ireland had suffered one of the worst sexual abuse crises in all of Europe. So the Pope had a tough trip ahead of him no matter what. Jason Horowitz is the Rome bureau chief. And then we all wake up on Sunday morning and there's this letter.

So this letter is a more than 7,000 word, essentially screed, against Pope Francis and his allies in the American church, in the Vatican. And it's a sort of nuclear bomb that immediately becomes the focus of Francis' trip to Ireland. I just want to begin by asking you about a story that's been emerging overnight, allegations being leveled against the Pope. Tell us about that. Three things immediately stood out. The first was the accusation by Archbishop Viganò that Pope Francis had actually personally covered up the abuse of Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of the United States.

Who, of course, resigned just a month ago as a cardinal in Washington, D.C. The allegations surrounded the abuse of some seminary students. McCarrick had been abusing seminarians and that Francis had this knowledge as far back as 2013. The other accusation is that Francis's predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, actually sanctioned McCarrick, that his abuse was so known inside the church that the predecessor to Francis sanctioned him. And then the third thing is kind of linked to both of them, which is because this sex abuse scandal is so damaging to the church, there's only one thing to be done,

and that is that Pope Francis and his allies who facilitated him, they all need to resign. So that doesn't happen every day. No. So, Jason, is this archbishop who wrote this letter the only figure behind it? Or is this representing something larger? Well, the archbishop signed the letter himself,

but he is, in a way, speaking for a faction inside the Vatican that very much thinks that the Pope is taking the church in a terrible direction that could ultimately even eventually lead to schism. Hmm. And how does the Pope respond to this bombshell set of accusations in this letter? You know, obviously the reporters who are following Pope Francis around Ireland are talking about nothing else but this letter. And typically, on the flight back to Rome, Pope Francis gives a press conference in which he talks about the trip and then answers questions. Usually, there's a lot of disagreement about what needs to be asked.

This time, there was no disagreement. Clearly, the question was, are the allegations in this letter true? Right. And surprisingly, the Pope dodges. to make conclusions. And he says what essentially comes down to, I won't dignify that question with a response. I will not say a single word on this.

Hmm. Jason, how does something like this happen? Because we think of Pope Francis as beloved around the world, and beyond that, as kind of a figure inside the Catholic Church beyond reproach. So what's the backstory? Well, I think it's worth remembering that when Francis was elected in 2013, he immediately won the adoration of Catholics and really much of the world just for being so different. First pope ever from South America.

You know, he speaks with this very kind of soft and lilting Argentine accent, comes out on the balcony. Buona sera. And even I think his first words were, you know, buona sera, good evening. And that just seems so colloquial and normal. And immediately he affects this sort of humbleness and this aura of normality. He was the guy who took the bus, right?

When he was in Buenos Aires, instead of kind of being limoed around, he took the guy who took the bus, right? When he was in Buenos Aires, instead of kind of being limoed around, he took the bus everywhere. So he had this very much man of the people vibe. There's so much new about this. It's a Latin American for the first time. It's a Jesuit for the first time. He's taken the name of St. Francis for the first time,

which is clearly a signal that he wants to show a different face of the church, face of the poor. So right off the bat, his popularity is through the roof. People are talking about a Francis effect, that by the pure force of his personality, people are going to start pouring into the churches again, the pews will be packed. But even in the very beginning, there is a group of prelates, cardinals, bishops, priests, also just some conservatives around Rome who are a little bit wary of this guy. And then he comes back from Brazil, which was his first foreign trip as pope in July 2013.

The unusually frank press conference on the flight home from Brazil covered a lot of ground over 80 minutes. He's asked a question by a reporter about the gay lobby, the so-called gay lobby. And he says this remarkable thing. All lobbies are not good, he told reporters. But if a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge him? And of course, who am I to judge immediately becomes this emblem of this pope, right? And immediately, people in the secular world, especially in the West, they fall in love with this.

This is something new. Word of the Pope's words traveled around the world quickly. Local Catholics say the remarks could represent a shift in tone within the church. And if you're preaching love, you're not going to say, like, oh, love except, you know, homosexuals. You know, it's love everybody. And just like what he said, who is he to judge? It is the now familiar change of style of this pope that has made him such an international headline getter. But back in the Vatican, there's that group of conservatives who are not delighted at all by this. And they see this as a huge warning that, oh, maybe we got

something more than we bargained for here. So in this single comment huge warning that, uh-oh, maybe we got something more than we bargained for here. So in this single comment, progressives inside and outside the church see the pope that they had hoped for, and these traditionalists start to see the pope that they had feared. I think that that's right. So then what happens? So the pope continues to essentially ride high as popularity is high, and he keeps on doing things that make him a huge crowd pleaser, especially for liberals and people who are thirsting for a change in the church. But he also does things that make these conservatives think that he's starting to erode the church that they love, and they start speaking out.

And primarily, the person who speaks out the most is an American cardinal who's based in the Vatican. His name is Cardinal Raymond Burke. There can't be just some kind of an amorphous, this is all just one great family, come on in, doesn't matter who you are, what you do, and so forth, you're part of it. And he is the one who you are, what you do, and so forth, you're part of it. No, when we turn to Christ. And he is the one who starts talking out on conservative outlets, Catholic television channels, sort of saying that, you know, this pope is saying things that aren't consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church. So it's really his approach. He's throwing the net out to gather new people,

perhaps eyes and ears that have never considered the church. So it's really his approach. He's throwing the net out to gather new people, perhaps eyes and ears that have never considered the church. But you see that then as a call for you, the other bishops, catechists, to redouble your efforts in those areas of Catholic teaching that might even be contentious. Exactly right. Because the people, even those very people are being drawn to the church because they're very much attracted by the approach of Pope Francis, are in need then to hear, well, what is the truth? And all this kind of stays below the radar. These people are not at all uncommunicated. They are not uncommunicated.

And then 2016 happens. Now to an issue the Catholic Church has grappled with for years. It appears Pope Francis may be opening a door for divorced Catholics. The Pope said divorced Catholics who remarry deserve better treatment from the church, and so do their children. The Pope releases a papal exhortation, which is essentially a big document, about the family. In the footnotes of the document, the Pope signals a possible path for divorced Catholics to receive Holy Communion,

writing, the Eucharist is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak. And that might sound like no big deal if you're not inside the church. But for this group of really orthodox conservatives, this is an earthquake. This is a disaster. We're talking about fundamentally a situation of someone who's living in a state contradictory to one of the most fundamental teachings of the faith. Because this is the crack in the doctrine, the way they see it, that could split the whole thing up. That if you start messing around with things that are supposed to be sacred, including the sanctity of marriage,

then what's next? And so this is the thing around which conservatives begin to rally. Hmm. And how did Pope Francis respond to this kind of growing sense of outrage among these traditional folks in the Vatican? So Pope Francis responded by enraging them even further by not responding. He essentially ignored them.

And they're not used to being ignored. And so that engenders huge animosity. This fall, more than a dozen cardinals and bishops from around the world will publish books defending church doctrine. Nearly 500 priests in Britain are urging church leaders to issue a clear and firm proclamation against communion for divorced couples. And then this year, the sex abuse crisis flares up again. We are following breaking news this morning coming out of the Vatican.

We have learned that former D.C. Archbishop Cardinal Theodore McCarrick has resigned and the Pope has accepted his resignation. McCarrick is facing several sex abuse allegations. Church bells ring out marking the first Sunday mass since a new report alleging widespread child sex abuse by Pennsylvania clergy. A report from a Pennsylvania grand jury released last week claims more than 300 priests sexually abused thousands of children. A report out of Pennsylvania detailing child sex abuse in the Catholic Church has some worshipers now questioning their faith. After saying nothing

about this in his sermon in Rome yesterday, today Pope Francis released a letter saying in part, quote, no effort must be spared to create a culture able to prevent such situations from happening. He went on to say, quote, we showed no care for the little ones. We abandoned them. The Pope did not call for any specific actions against predator priests or those who helped cover up their crimes, nor. He seems to be grappling with how to respond to this thing, and he doesn't seem to be sure-footed. And all of a sudden, the Pope that everybody, you know, loved, who could do no wrong, seems sort of vulnerable. And it's in that context that he goes to Ireland. And it's in that context that all of a sudden this letter appears,

expressing the viewpoint of these people, like Archbishop Vigano, who wrote it, like Cardinal Burke, who's been leading the charge, that these people have been waiting a very long time for their message to break through. If you are a critic of Francis, and if you are someone who thinks that he has been detrimental to the church rather than a source for good, the timing of this letter is a beautiful thing because all of the world's

attention is already on him. And now you are wrapping him up in the very thing that people have doubts about, which is his commitment to solving the sex abuse problem in the church. Church. So this letter contains very specific allegations that Pope Francis knew about an archbishop's behavior, his sexual abuse in the United States, and didn't do anything about it. That he had a specific knowledge and that he ignored it. So I guess the obvious question is, regardless of whether or not this letter is politically convenient as an accusation on behalf of the traditionalists, is that accusation, Jason, true? Is there evidence that the Pope gave a non-answer when asked point blank about it, you know, that has added fuel to this. And there are lots of reasons to believe that there are flaws in these accusations. But until we have all of the facts, you know, those investigations are going to keep going on. And that's why the Pope's decision not to answer, I wonder if strategically, tactically, that was the right thing to do. I think that's the question that a lot of people are asking. I have to say, it seems sort of counterintuitive that this more traditional conservative wing of the Catholic Church is accusing this more progressive pope of being the one to cover up the church sex abuse scandal.

How do they, these traditionalists, talk about were responsible for sex abuse in the church by any stretch of the imagination. But their critique of why there is a sex abuse crisis in the Catholic Church is full of this. And it's a good portion of the letter is essentially calling for a purge of homosexuals from the Vatican and the priesthood. Because in the worldview of Archbishop Vigano and a lot of other conservatives in the Vatican, there is a direct correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. They think that the reason you have all of these horrible cases happening is because you have homosexuals within the priesthood. And this is exactly the sort of thing Pope Francis does not want to be talking about. This is what he wanted to move on from. This is not the fight that he wants to be fighting. So in addition to alleging that Francis helped cover up this sex abuse scandal, it sounds like these conservatives view his open-mindedness and his generosity towards gay people as perhaps making this sexual abuse scandal worse since they see the presence of gay people in the church and in the Vatican as contributing to the original sex abuse problem.

Yeah, I think that's right. Whereas Francis' view is that this horrible sex abuse crisis is more than anything a symptom of a culture of secrecy. Priests thinking that they have more authority than the people that they're supposed to be preaching to. The way Francis talks about it is that if instead of being in service of the people, you feel like you have authority and power over them, you're going to start abusing them. And that's what is destructive in the church. Jason, is this a genuine disagreement between these two groups over what causes sex abuse in the church? Or is this argument from these traditionalists somehow, at the end of the day, a convenient argument to serve their greater purpose, which we'll be talking to you about, which might be to unseat Pope Francis as this letter demands? be to unseat Pope Francis, as this letter demands. In other words, is this a true religious disagreement, or is this a regular old power struggle? You know, in this case, I think it is

both. This group of conservatives and traditionalists that we're talking about, I think that they are sincere in their belief that homosexuality causes lots of problems, including sex abuse. But it also happens to be, for them, an extremely powerful weapon against Pope Francis. If not to unseat him, then to distract him, slow him down, damage his influence and his popularity, and keep him from doing the sorts of reforms that they don't want. If he's mired in this fight and he sort of loses some juice over this,

that's a good result for them. So there is clearly, I think, a political element to this. Jason, what happens if this growing division between the traditionalists and the people who support Pope Francis, if it's not resolved? Well, first of all, I don't think it will be resolved. I don't see Francis all of a sudden saying, you guys are right. There's too many gays in the priesthood. Let's get rid of them. I don't see some conservatives here, the ones we've been talking about. I don't see them suddenly saying, you know, you're right.

Who are we to judge? You know, that's just not going to happen. In a way, there is an expiration date here. And the question is, what does Francis achieve before that happens? But from the other side, what can they prevent Francis from doing? You have a giant bureaucracy here in the Curia, which is the Vatican bureaucracy that's run the church for centuries. The Curia is, you know, if you want to talk about a deep state, it's the deepest state. They have the ability to slow the gears of the church down, the machine down. So that's where the opposition to Francis can really manifest itself. If these church leaders, especially the traditionalists, the conservative ones, are worried about the future of the church, wouldn't a huge divide like this one inside the church, the one that was exposed by this letter, and an attempt to bring down a sitting pope, wouldn't that be the absolute worst thing for the future of the church? So the traditionalists would say better a small,

pure church than one that lets in everybody who wants to do everything because then the church loses its sense. You know, I went all around to Ireland before getting on the plane to go with Francis to Dublin. And one thing I heard from Catholics all across the country was this real sense of betrayal that the church that they had loved had, in a very literal way, abused them. For those who haven't given up hope on the church, what they don't particularly care about is a power struggle in Rome.

What they want is to rebuild a church on the ground that actually listens to them, that walks with them. And that is very much what Francis says needs to happen. same time, if he's not going to take steps to remedy the crisis that caused the falling away of so many Catholics, it's going to be tough to rebuild something there. And so that's again why this attack is so powerful on him. It's because it's the very thing that has really punched Catholics in the gut all around the world. And to say that Francis is not just not doing enough to solve the problem, but that he is the problem, that he's part of the problem. I think it's something that a lot of Catholics would want the Pope to respond to directly and to assure them that it is not true. directly and to assure them that it is not true. I mean, his popularity is still strong, but he needs to make sure that the Catholics who are going to be responsible for rebuilding his church don't lose faith in him.

Jason, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. This has to do, they used to call it NAFTA. We're going to call it the United States-Mexico Trade Agreement. And we'll get rid of the name NAFTA. It has a bad connotation because the United States was hurt very badly by NAFTA for many years.

And now it's a really good deal for both countries. President Trump held a briefing at the White House on Tuesday to announce that the U.S. and Mexico had reached their own bilateral trade deal that could replace the North American Free Trade Agreement, a trilateral agreement that also includes Canada. The president is on the phone. Enrique. You can hook him up. Tell me when.

It's a big thing. A lot of people waiting. After some technical difficulties, the president was joined on speakerphone by the president of Mexico, Enrique Peña Nieto. President Trump, how are you? Good morning. Thank you, Enrique, and congratulations. That's really a fantastic thing. We've all worked very hard. Your brilliant representatives are sitting right in front of me, and I thought we would congratulate each other before it got out.

The preliminary announcement at the White House, ahead of any actual deal being signed, was seen as a signal by President Trump that he was ready to move forward with or without the Canadians. But Mexican officials said they wanted Canada back in the discussion and hoped to reach a trilateral agreement by the end of the week. The new deal would include significant changes to the rules governing automobile manufacturing in an effort to bring more car production back to the U.S. from Mexico. And, My fellow Americans, whom I have gratefully served for 60 years, and especially my fellow Arizonians,

thank you for the privilege of serving you and for the rewarding life that service in uniform and in public office has allowed me to lead. I've tried to serve our country honorably. I've made mistakes, but I hope my love for America will be weighed favorably against them. On Monday, John McCain's former campaign manager, Rick Davis, read a brief farewell statement on behalf of the late senator. We are citizens of the world's greatest republic, a nation of ideals, not blood and soil. We weaken our greatness when we confuse our patriotism with tribal rivalries that have sown resentment and hatred and violence in all the corners of the globe. In it, McCain seemed to deliver a final rebuke of the president, who came under intense criticism on Monday for quickly returning the White House flag to full staff, while the rest of Washington continued to keep flags at half-staff in McCain's honor.

Do not despair of our present difficulties. We believe always in the promise and greatness of America, because nothing is inevitable here. Americans never quit. We never surrender. We never hide from history. We make history. Farewell, fellow Americans.

God bless you, and God bless America. Later in the day Monday, the White House flag was lowered again to half-staff. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.