The Daily - Trump 2.0: He’s Never Sounded Like This Before

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

In a special series leading up to Election Day, “The Daily” will explore what a second Trump presidency would look like, and what it could mean for American democracy.Since he began his latest campaign, former President Donald J. Trump’s message has changed, becoming darker, angrier and more focused on those out to get him than it ever was before.Charles Homans, who covers national politics for The Times, has been studying the evolution of Mr. Trump’s message, and what exactly it means to his supporters and for the country.Guest: Charles Homans, who covers national politics for The New York Times.Background reading: No major American presidential candidate has talked as Mr. Trump now does at his rallies — not Richard Nixon, not George Wallace, not even Mr. Trump himself.The first night of the Republican National Convention sought to strike a new note. But some of the lyrics were familiar.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

Previously on The Daily. We didn't want this to be some fan fiction, sitting around, you know, smoking a pipe, trying to imagine what a second term of Trump would look like. We want it to be rooted in real reporting. Back in April, we introduced a series focused on what a second Trump presidency would look like and what it would mean for American democracy. It's too much to say it's the end of democracy per se. It's American-style democracy.

And American-style democracy is not... In part one, my colleagues Jonathan Swan, Charlie Savage, and Maggie Haberman explained how in his first term, Trump encountered government systems and personnel that had blocked the most extreme parts of his agenda and left Trump determined to remove those obstacles if re-elected. We focused very intently on things that Donald Trump himself cares about. And at the heart of that is power. In order to do that, they found,

Trump plans to systematically weed out federal workers at all levels who would stand in his way, take control of agencies that have long operated independently, and use the Department of Justice to punish his enemies. The result would be a presidency with few constraints on its power. Today, part two of our series, Trump's Message. Charlie, we are here at the Republican National Convention on the eve of the speech in which Donald Trump is going to formally accept his party's nomination. And you and I had been working on an episode about Trump's campaign message for this series that The Daily's been doing about what a second Trump term would be like. And candidly, we thought we were done with the episode. And then while Trump was out on the campaign trail delivering his message,

he was shot at by a would-be assassin. How do you think about that moment in the context of the conversation that you and I had been having? I mean, it was this obviously just shocking and horrible moment. And it feels in that moment like the whole campaign, the whole world has transformed in this instant. But also the thing that became very clear very quickly was that in a way, this wasn't a new story. It felt like a kind of a continuation of the story that we've been talking about, you know, working on this episode. There's this view among Trump supporters that he's just,

you know, been this target of persecution since the moment he entered politics. And this is sort of the latest chapter in that. You know, at this moment, we know very little about the gunman and what his motives were, what his politics even were. But very quickly, you see this sort of narrative among Trump supporters and among people you see this sort of narrative among Trump supporters and among people close to Trump sort of percolating online that this wasn't just a tragedy. It was an inevitability. I do believe that Joe Biden is responsible for the shooting to date. Everyone who has called him a fascist, everyone who has called him a threat to democracy. This was the result of Democrats and the media saying over and over again,

Trump's a threat to democracy. Senator J.D. Vance commenting on X saying the rhetoric led directly to President Trump's attempted assassination. And that this was the inevitable product of this kind of reckless language, and it almost cost Donald Trump his life. Georgia Congressman Mike Collins suggesting Biden ordered the shooting. And some went even further than that. Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene saying that, quote, the Democrat Party is flat out evil. And yesterday they tried to murder President Trump. Saying

that Biden and the Democrats were responsible for the shooting, even though we know very little about the politics or the motive of the gunman at this point. But in their mind, no matter what the shooter's motive was, the assassination attempt was the climax and the confirmation, really,

of the story that Trump had been telling for years. Right. And that is the story that we are going to be talking about today, the story that Trump has been telling about the forces out to get him. Exactly. First, they tried to ruin his reputation, And he's more popular now than ever. And then they tried to bankrupt him. And then they tried to put him in prison.

And he's freer and has made other people free with him. And then last weekend, they tried to kill him. And there he is over there, alive and well. From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is a special episode of The Daily. Since he began his latest campaign for president, Donald Trump's message has changed, becoming darker, angrier, and more focused on those out to get him than ever before.

It's a rhetorical shift that many Americans have overlooked, but one that, if Trump is elected, could profoundly shape his second term. My colleague, Charles Homans, has been studying the evolution of that message, and what exactly it means to his supporters, and for the country. It's Thursday, July 18th. Charlie, thank you for being here in the studio. Thanks for having me. We first spoke to Charlie before the attempt on Trump's life. So I've been attending Trump rallies on and off since late 2016, shortly before he won the presidential election that year. And what was unusual was that even after he won, Trump kept doing these rallies.

He kept going out and talking to people after he was inaugurated throughout his first term in office. The man likes a rally. He loves a rally. Fantastic! He loves being around these crowds. Thank you, everybody. What a great welcome. Sit down, relax. We'll be here for a while.

And then he kept doing them even after he was president, doing these sort of roadshow appearances almost or on behalf of candidates in the 22 elections. And then he really hits the gas in the spring of last year

as he's ramping up his presidential campaign. Right. In a sense, he never really stopped talking since 2015, 2016. He never stopped talking. And I think that quite a long time ago, a lot of people who like him and a lot of people who don't like him, you know, both those groups kind of started to tune him out.

So it can be a little tough to really follow the ways in which what he's said has changed. But it has changed in ways that I think are really important to pay attention to and to understand. Because Donald Trump in 2024 is a very different Donald Trump than we saw in 2016. And understanding that evolution in his messaging is helpful to understand how he's selling and justifying a second term that would really be unlike anything we've seen potentially in modern U.S. history. So let's talk about that. How, in your mind, has Trump's message changed? And I think for context, we should go back to the beginning to 2016. Well, first, let me just acknowledge what

we all know, which is that when Donald Trump came on the scene, so much of the language he used was really unprecedented in modern politics. Is she crooked or what? Okay, give me a break. Is she crooked? He insulted people. He used a lot of dog whistles when he talked about immigrants. So with immigration, you better be smart and you better be tough. And they're taking your jobs and you better be careful. You better be careful.

And I think that's what most people remember about his message at that time. But I think what we might forget or what people might have missed is that he also spent a lot of time during that campaign focused on creating the sense of a political movement. Because this is indeed a movement, folks. When you look at this room and you look at thousands of people outside, this is not just a normal situation. This is a movement. And he spoke in this sort of upbeat and optimistic way and really tried to conjure this sense of community around this us that he was talking about in his speeches. We're asking Bernie Sanders voters to join our movement so together we can fix the system for all Americans so important.

And he talked a lot in his speeches about us. The media and the political elite don't know the pain and the suffering these people are living under. But I figured it out a long time ago, and that's why I'm here. I'm with you. Rather than where I was, I was on the other side. He didn't define it really specifically. It was a sort of open invitation for anyone who was disaffected with the status quo of American politics and the establishment. When one part of America hurts, we all hurt. And when one American suffers an injustice, all of America suffers together. We're all together.

Like you said, Charlie, it's very easy. I mean, I'm guilty of it as much as anyone of forgetting that there really was a prominent unifying aspect to some of what Donald Trump was saying in 2016 and even into the early months of his presidency. I think that's right. I mean, however divisive his rhetoric was and however conspiratorial it could be and however xenophobic it could be, the flip side of this was he was speaking of this new country that he was aspiring to kind of lead that was really united under his leadership. January 20th, 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again. And all that was required for membership in that America was support of Donald Trump, no matter who you were. I love you. Look at this guy. He keeps shouting, he loves. I think that's right.

You love me, right? Okay. Hey, you know what? He's a guy, but I love him, okay? He's a guy, but I love him. And so what happened to the us, this relatively broad us, if you support Trump, once Trump actually becomes president. So once he settles into his presidency, when he's going out there and speaking to people, he's still talking about this us. But the tone and the focus really starts to change. What happens is he starts running into these roadblocks to his presidency, and the roadblocks take several different forms.

We're going to fight this terrible ruling. We're going to take our case as far as it needs to go, including all the way up to the Supreme Court. Early on, the courts are blocking some of the executive orders he's issued on the border wall, immigration, the ban on citizens from Muslim-majority countries from entering the U.S., and the Russia investigation begins. All we hear about is this phony Russia witch hunt. That's all we hear about. But it is really unfair because it's like a witch hunt.

The entire thing has been a witch hunt. It becomes this interminable thing that just becomes the backdrop to his whole presidency. And they just wanted to take all of us. They wanted to put us in trouble. And it's not working too well, I'll tell you. Eventually, his conversations with the Ukrainian president lead to his impeachment in Congress. There is no basis whatsoever for impeachment.

None. And it should never happen. It should never be allowed to happen to another president again. And nobody should have to go through that. I'm leading in the polls. They have no idea how they stop me. The only way they can try is through impeachment. And so you hear him growing more and more frustrated and defensive in these speeches throughout his time in office. Our enemies are desperate to stop us because they know that we are the only ones who can stop them. They know that.

And the focus of his message starts to become less about the us that he was talking about before and more about these dark forces that are getting in his way. You know, the them. forces that are getting in his way. You know, the them. Today's Democrat Party is held hostage by left-wing haters, angry mobs, deep state radicals, establishment cronies, and their fake news allies. It's the deep state. It's the Democrats. It's the Republicans who still don't like Trump. It's the media. They're all trying to undermine his presidency. And by extension, they're trying to undermine the will of his millions of supporters. And this reaches a real fever pitch, this narrative, when we get to his 2020 election loss. This election was rigged. Everybody knows it.

I don't mind if I lose an election, but I want to lose an election fair and square. What I don't want to do is have it stolen from the American people. You know, at this point, the enemy that he's talking about, this them, isn't just trying to stymie him and hamstring his presidency. They've taken things to a whole new level. For five straight years, it has been a con job, years, it has been a con job one after another, one con job after another, a nonstop parade of fake whistleblowers, phony investigations, twisted conspiracy theories, and very, very perverted lies. So the us by this point is very much receded. It's in the background. And I think that brings us more or less up to now and his 2024 campaign. And how is Trump defining the them right now in this campaign?

Let me answer that by first describing how Trump launched his 2024 campaign. first describing how Trump launched his 2024 campaign. He holds his first rally last March. Well, thank you very much, everybody. And right before this rally, it's reported that he's about to be indicted in the New York hush money case, the first of several indictments he's going to face over the course of the year.

He decides to hold this rally right after this news has come out in Waco, Texas, which is a town that's infamous for a deadly showdown in the 90s between this religious sect that was amassing weapons illegally and the federal government. It was this big fiasco. A lot of people were killed. It becomes this very prominent symbol on the far right and for militia groups of violent federal government overreach. So by launching his campaign here, Trump's message is not subtle.

The Biden regime's weaponization of law enforcement against their political opponent is something straight out of the Stalinist Russian horror show. There's really only one reason that you hold a rally in Waco, and that is to draw a clear line between your own experience at the hands of the federal government and what happened in Waco in the 90s. And the weaponization of law enforcement, banana republic, that's what we have become. And as the campaign goes on, the language that he's using to describe his enemies is far more extreme, really way off the map of even how Trump has talked before. We pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country that lie and steal and cheat on elections and will do anything

possible. They'll do anything, whether legally or illegally, to destroy America and to destroy the American dream. At this point, they're not just his enemies. He's comparing them to vermin. He's using really the ugliest possible language, words he's really never used before. This is the language of kind of dehumanization. Yes.

And his message now in 2024 is not only are these people coming after him, they're trying to corrupt the entire country and to destroy America from within. And what is Trump saying about how this dehumanized enemy from within is now trying to destroy the country in 2024? The message at the rallies is really that these forces have continued to wage this battle on a couple of different fronts. One of them is immigration. And in 2016, he talked about immigrants as an external threat. In 2024... Biden's conduct on our border

is by any definition a conspiracy to overthrow the United States of America. For the first time, he's really claiming that this isn't just an invasion, as he calls it. It's a deliberate plot by Joe Biden, by the Democratic Party, to import people to form a permanent Democratic voting class who will keep them in power for the foreseeable future. Biden and his accomplices want to collapse the American system, nullify the will of the actual American voters, and establish

a new base of power that gives them control for generations. So the theory Trump is evoking is that Democrats are facilitating what they hope will be a kind of self-perpetuating Democratic Party majority that will win them elections. We should say, of course, that there is no evidence that that is true. That's right. Okay. So you said that there were a couple of ways that Trump is speaking about this conspiracy, this enemy from within. What are the other ways? The other way is that Biden and the Democrats are wielding the power of this corrupt, weaponized justice system. All of this persecution is only happening

because we're leading so big in the polls. If I wasn't running right now, or if I was in fifth place, I wouldn't be under indictment. I wouldn't have any problems right now. We talked before about the indictments and how Trump is alleging that these indictments are evidence of the system's corruption.

He's now taking that a step further to say that they're planning to use this weaponized justice system not only against Trump, but against anyone that they want. If they can do this to me, they can do this to anyone. These are bad people.

These are, in many cases, I believe, sick people. He's saying, look, I was president of the United States and they still came after me. So if they can do that to me, well, they can do that to you. They want to silence me because I will never let them silence you.

And in his telling right now, he's given up this good life in Mar-a-Lago and potentially even his freedom for the people who believe in him. And that makes him a martyr for all these people who are supporting him. And in the end, they're not after me. They're after you, and I just happen to be standing in their way. believe in him. And that makes him a martyr for all these people who are supporting him. And in the end, they're not after me. They're after you. And I just happen to be standing in their way. It's my honor to do so. And what all this amounts to is Trump saying the only way to prevent what happened to me from happening to the rest of you is to reelect me. Put me back in the White House and I will make sure this weaponized justice system does not set its sights on you. That while Joe Biden and the Democrats accuse him of being this threat to democracy,

that they are the real threat to democracy. And you hear him talking about that very explicitly. You know, they have like this standard line. Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. Some advertising agency wrote that down. I'm not a threat. I'm the one that's ending the threat to democracy. Some advertising agency wrote that down. I'm not a threat. I'm the one that's ending the threat to democracy. If you extend the logic of that argument that Trump is making about Biden's approach to immigration, Biden's approach to

criminal justice, and all the prosecutions that Trump faces, it feels like what Trump is really arguing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the only way democracy endures is if he reclaims the presidency. And if he doesn't reclaim the presidency, then what we have is something short of democracy. That's right. From the beginning of his presidency, Trump has presented himself as this sort of completion of democracy. The president who really truly brought democracy to the United States and returned the country to its people. And what he's arguing now is an extension of that. That all these illegitimate forces have been trying to undermine that real American democracy from the beginning. And now they're converging on his campaign in an effort to stop him from coming back.

feels like it's not just a call to re-elect him president, but a pretty strong case for Trump doing whatever he thinks he needs to do as president that might normally perhaps be seen as undemocratic or anti-democratic. All the things that our colleagues have talked about Trump wanting to do, consolidating power, taking over agencies no president has taken over in the past, firing government bureaucrats who have never been fired before if they get in his way. And then Trump could argue, as he seems to be right now, look, I'm doing these things to safeguard democracy, even if many people look at these actions and they say, no, you're actually undermining democracy. That's right. The overall message of his campaign is that America is facing a threat so grave from its internal enemies that extraordinary measures might be necessary to stop them. And that's what the mission of this second term will be.

And a year from now, I will appoint a real special prosecutor to expose the monumental corruption of the Biden crime family once and for all. Sometimes those extraordinary measures are very specific things, the kind of things that our colleagues have talked about. One of them being appointing what he's called a real special prosecutor to go after Joe Biden. And unlike the witch hunt that I've been going through ever since we came down that beautiful escalator in Trump Tower, they will be properly prosecuted. I promise you that. But other times he'll speak in more general terms about the need for retribution and revenge and leave it for people to decide what he means by that.

In 2016, I declared, I am your voice. Today, I add, I am your warrior. I am your warrior. I am your justice. I am your justice. And I took a lot of heat for this one, but I only mean it in the proper way for those who have been wronged and betrayed, of which there are many people out there that have been wronged and betrayed, of which there are many people out there that have been wronged and betrayed. I am your retribution. I am your retribution. I am your retribution. We will take care of it. I'm not going to let this happen. We will take care of it. I'm not going to let it happen. And so the question is, how are his supporters and voters receiving that message?

How literally do they take his message about these threats to the country and the need for retribution? When he says all these things that we're talking about here, what are people actually hearing? We'll be right back. Hello. How are you? Found a little, the one tree to stand on. The one tree. We are here. A few weeks ago, Charlie took those questions about Trump's message directly to his supporters at a Trump rally in Philadelphia, which he attended with Daily producers Aastha Chaturvedi and Eric Krupke.

Red hats, red flags, red shirts, red umbrellas. So what did Trump's supporters tell you about what they are hearing in his message? tell you about what they are hearing in his message. It's worth saying that almost universally, the first thing that the people that we talked to at this rally brought up was not these threats to democracy that Donald Trump is talking about all the time. What issues are important to you in the election?

My issues are probably the financial issues and I feel... The economy. Yeah, the economy and... It was the issue that's sort of central to so many elections, the economy. You go to the grocery store, everything's insane. I mean, inflation is out of this world. There are crazy prices everywhere

and I think they were not created by accident. They were created in this administration. To them, inflation is out of control and it's all Joe Biden's fault. And Donald Trump is the one to fix it. And what would you want him to do for you? Help with inflation right now because middle class people like us,

it's harder for us to live. Our rent's gone up $400 in the last, what, three months. We just paid a $900 light bill, man. So anything would help because he's trying for us. The other thing they talk about constantly is immigration. The border crisis to me is a very big deal. I don't feel like we're safe at all anymore. And I really think that deportations really do need to happen,

at least of those that are, you know, here that have committed crimes. And what you notice is when you hear people talk about immigration, they're often talking about it in terms that really mirror what Trump says about it in his speeches. I think it's very obvious why they're doing this. It's very obvious. They want to get votes. It's really facilitating an invasion. And it's quite frankly treasonous. So what you're hearing is that Trump's message about threats and retribution, it may not be his

overriding appeal, which is not to say that it's not part of his appeal, though, right? I think that's right. And these things aren't really mutually exclusive. You know, when you keep talking, when you get deeper into the conversation, it's clear that these messages really are resonating and shaping their view of this election and the stakes of this election. Almost everyone echoes Trump's claims about these internal threats facing the country. One guy we talked to about this was named Tom Turner. Excuse me. My name is Eric. I'm with The New York Times. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? From Philadelphia in his early 20s. Yes. Keep your signs. Nice. And when we met him, he was buying this Trump T-shirt.

What does it say? Can you just read it out for me? Yes, sir. It says I'm voting for the convicted felon. Goddamn right I am, man. Make America great again. And he repeated Trump's claims that the justice system was being weaponized against him, all in an effort to keep him from winning in November. The easiest way to shut somebody up is to make them out to be a criminal, make them out to be crazy. So I think that persecution is, this is just another tactic at just drowning out, you know, what he has to say and taking his platform away from him. He said he did believe that the deep state was conspiring to get Trump. Now, everybody's conspiring at the top, so it's a battle between both sides.

But despite all that, Tom says he's uncomfortable with the idea of giving Trump the kind of power as president that Trump has suggested that he should have. giving Trump the kind of power as president that Trump has suggested that he should have. For example, when it comes to Trump's desire to have a special prosecutor go after people like Joe Biden, you know, Tom just doesn't think it's right. I don't know. I hope not, though. I hope not. It wouldn't be fair. Can you say more about that? Why wouldn't it be fair? I mean, it's not fair for a president to have the power to appoint an agency like the CIA or FBI to directly target, you know, like any other candidate. And we heard this from a lot of people.

Like, this isn't something that should happen in a democratic country. And I don't think that political persecution in any type of form or aiming to imprison political opponents is the American way. I think that's very representative of, you know, more communist countries. So you wouldn't want to see him do that? No. And interestingly, he's also not that concerned that Trump would even take those kinds of steps in the first place. And he points to Trump's first term as evidence of that. But I don't think that if Trump had that power and he had the, you know, ability, I'm going to put you in jail.

Almost like when he said he's going to put Hillary in jail. Didn't happen. You know, it didn't happen. So do I think he would do it? I don't. If he did it, I don't think it would in jail. Almost like when he said he was going to put Hillary in jail. Didn't happen. You know, it didn't happen. So do I think he would do it? I don't. If he did it, I don't think it would be fair. I don't. Why do you think he said that he would put Hillary in jail?

I think the people wanted to hear it. I can't say whether or not that he actually, you know, intended to do that. Tom is basically saying that because Trump didn't prosecute Hillary Clinton in his first term, Trump didn't prosecute Hillary Clinton in his first term, even though he said he wanted to, that that's evidence that he was just bloviating. He was exaggerating when he talks now about prosecuting his enemies. But what we know is that Trump did, in fact, try to prosecute Clinton in his first term, but people stood in his way and told him, no, you can't do that. But a second term, based on our colleagues' reporting,

will ensure that those kinds of people will not be around to hold him back. Right, and this is something you hear at rallies a lot. I mean, often people will take the fact that Trump didn't succeed at doing something in his first term as sort of evidence that he's not going to try it in the second term, even if it's something that he did try to do in the first term and was talked out of or wasn't able to do for one reason or another. A kind of magical thinking is going on here a little bit, that he's not going to do the things he said he did just because he didn't succeed the

first time. Right. And to Tom and to a lot of others I've met at Trump rallies, all the stuff Trump says is just political theater. How do you differentiate between, you know, when Trump is saying something just to play to the crowd or when he's being serious? Like, is there a way you can tell? I mean, so I suppose like in order to differentiate, it's kind of hard because when people come here, I don't think that they're looking to differentiate. I don't really think that they're looking to separate what's true and what's not. I think the whole idea of the rally is just to fire people up. And I think that's a big thing. Got it.

How often do you encounter supporters who take Trump quite literally on this subject? Those people are definitely there. They're not in the majority, I would say, of the people that I've met, but they're certainly there. They see the country as facing very dire threats, and they think Trump should do whatever it takes to deal with those threats.

Let's do it fast. I'm not going to miss the boss. Do you know when there's... Well, he's supposed to come on at 7, right? Yes. For example, there's Ed Young from Brick, New Jersey. He's heavily involved in the local Republican Party. He's a member of his county Republican Party committee.

And he said he's been to a lot of Trump rallies. Today is my 78th Trump rally. 78th. That's right. And he really wants Trump to seek retribution. He's talked about this a lot with us. He has a really clear vision of what that would look like. When he gets reelected, I hope to God it's no more Mr. Nice Guy.

I hope we have a reckoning, a reckoning. What would that look like? Well, you know, this is my fantasy. What this country really needs. I mean, this won't happen. My fantasy. We need a Nuremberg-style trial for our country. And pretty much every elected Democrat should be put on trial for treason.

And if they're convicted, punished, just like the Nazis at Nuremberg. I hope to God finally we're going to see some criminal, evil, treasonous Democrats arrested and sentenced. So here's a voter saying to you, and I guess to Trump, you have my permission to deliver on this message. Yeah, and he's going further than Trump has even in describing sort of what retribution might look like. But, you know, we met other people at the rally who were less brash than Ed, but were just as surprising about what steps Trump should take. And give me an example of that. One was this guy that we met a little bit after the rally had ended. His name was Tom Tobelman.

Was this your first Trump rally? This was my first Trump rally. What did you think? He's also in his early 20s from Downington, Pennsylvania. I really think that the government needs to realize how out of touch they are with what the people really want. And I think Trump's pretty in touch. I think that the people really want, you know. And I think Trump's pretty in touch.

I think that's why people like him so much. You think he's kind of a necessary shock to the system? Yeah, I think so. So we asked him about the changes that Trump wants to make, some of the things that my colleagues have reported on here, you know, plans to fire civil servants and replace them with Trump loyalists. You know, I surprised if there was like a totalitarian aspect to the plan where it's like, yeah, obviously, you know, if you're going to drain the swamp and then you're going to put new people in, you're going to put in people that agree with you, though.

So I don't understand what they expect him to do if he's going to drain the swamp, right? If he's going to drain all people out, what he's going to do, put in people that he disagrees with? Like, that makes no sense. And not only is he into that idea, he takes it to his logical conclusion that, you know, maybe we do need some form of authoritarianism or dictatorship. And if everybody agrees in the government, things get done. And then it just comes down to whether or not the people who are getting things done care about the people or not, right? And I mean, that's also the whole thing with, like, monarchies and things like that, dictatorships. Like, you can

have, like, a wise and just king king or you can have a corrupt and foolish king. And if you have a wise and just king, to be honest, it'll probably run better than any other government because you can get things done fast. But then if you have a corrupt king, you have the worst government on the planet and overstepped reach and no rights and things like that.

And Trump is a wise and just king in your eyes? I think he's somewhere in the middle and I think we have checks and balances in America. So I don't think that he can take full totalitarian control. But I'm not totally sold on whether or not, you know, he is 100 percent for the people or anything like that. I think he's the best chance we got. I am reminded of what we said in the first half of our conversation about how a way to safeguard democracy to some Trump supporters is to allow him to challenge slash undermine our traditional norms of democracy. Because that would allow Trump over time to preserve American democracy, which is kind of heady and it doesn't necessarily add up.

I mean, this goes back to this idea that Trump has been saying all along, which is that he himself is this sort of perfect realization of American democracy. And maybe it's necessary for him to act outside of that democracy in order to save it. Mm-hmm. And this is where the movement that Trump has been building comes in, this us. Something that I've really noticed going to a lot of these rallies is that whether or not they're taking him seriously, and many of them are and some of them aren't,

Trump supporters have this real bond with him. You know, they love him and they trust him and they trust that he's not going to abuse this power. Well, Charlie, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. This dude's got so much just love for the country. I've never seen somebody that willing to the stuff that he's going through.

You know what I mean? He could just kick his heels up and, you know. It's hard to make a billionaire president into a victim. But it's happening. I mean, it really is. So it's really nice to just feel like, you know, the things that my grandfather and my grandparents loved so much about this country are going to be saved. Donald Trump's our first rock star superhero president. He is the real Tony Stark.

He's President Iron Man. He really is. He's a superhero. Shannon, good morning to you. The Trump campaign says they are full steam ahead with the RNC here in Milwaukee. They're going to be beefing up their security at all their campaign offices with 24-7 armed officers. A lot of people who are pro-Trump have been saying that this is the playbook of the day, whether it's a deep state or, you know, some shadowy interest in the government.

First, they try to cancel you. The second thing that they try to do is they try to convict you of something. And then the third thing that they try to do is they try to kill you. And that's just what happened with Trump. And he's fighting on, literally pumping his fist and saying, fight, fight on. There's something deeper here. This is a spiritual battle we're locked in right now here in the United States. And he's at the tip of the spear of it. We'll be right back.

Here's what else you need to know today. The Democratic rebellion against President Biden intensified on Wednesday. Biden intensified on Wednesday. Party leaders successfully pushed to delay his nomination by a week in order to prolong the debate over his viability. And the highest-profile Democrat to date called on Biden to step aside. That Democrat, Representative Adam Schiff of California, said that he doubted that Biden could defeat Donald Trump in November. said that he doubted that Biden could defeat Donald Trump in November.

Schiff becomes the 23rd congressional Democrat to ask Biden to end his campaign. And FBI officials have told members of Congress that the gunman who tried to kill Trump used his cell phone to search for images of both Trump and Biden, and to search for the dates of Trump appearances and the Democratic National Convention. Most politically motivated assassins leave a discernible trail of views, but so far, there is no evidence that the shooter in this case had strong partisan feelings. that the shooter in this case had strong partisan feelings. Today's episode was produced by Asta Chaturvedi and Eric Krupke.

It was edited by Michael Benoit and Rachel Quester, with help from Lindsay Garrison. Was researched with help from Susan Lee. Contains original music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell, Diane Wong, Rowan Emisto, and Pat McCusker, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley with help from Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Nick Pittman and Michael Bender. That's it for The Daily.

I'm Michael Bavaro. See you tomorrow.