The Daily - Trump Ends His Child Separation Practice

Episode Date: June 21, 2018

President Trump signed an executive order to keep parents and children together at the border. What does it mean for his immigration policy — and for the families who have already been split apart? Guest: Caitlin Dickerson, a national immigration reporter for The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, the Trump administration has signed an executive order ending the separation of parents and children. So is everything just going back to the way it was? It's Thursday, June 21st. If I might, I just wanted to make a brief statement on immigration and what's happening.

And I'll say it very honestly, and I'll say it very straight. So from the very beginning of this controversy over separating parents and children at the border, President Trump has placed the blame on Democrats. Immigration is the fault in all of the problems that we're having, because we cannot get them to sign legislation. We cannot get them even sign legislation. We cannot get them even to the negotiating table. And I say it's very strongly the Democrats' fault.

They're obstruction. They're really obstructionist, and they are obstructing. And why is that? I mean, the notion that Democrats would be responsible for a practice that seems like pretty much a Democratic nightmare when it comes to immigration policy. It doesn't at all seem intuitive. Is there a case to be made here? What's the basis on which the president is saying that the Democrats caused this? There really isn't a case to be made here, and it's pretty disingenuous on its face because the law the president was invoking in order to force these separations is the most basic one on the books. It's that you can't enter the country without permission.

Everybody agrees on that. And that law doesn't exist because of the Democrats. Kaitlin Dickerson covers immigration for The Times. But it is true that a lot of Republicans and the president believe that larger issues with the immigration system are the fault of the Democrats. He believes he came into office with an immigration system that was totally in disrepair. People requesting asylum in droves, even though the vast number who do aren't eligible for it, a massive undocumented population that wasn't getting any smaller, the courts are backlogged, detention centers are full, borders are overwhelmed. So you could make the argument,

and I think the president sort of is in a very general way, that he came into a system that was totally broken, that that was the Democrats' fault. And so he had to do something really extreme. And that extreme move becomes his zero tolerance policy in which everybody who crosses the border is prosecuted. And that means everybody who comes with kids is separated from them. So the president is saying that Democrats caused this by allowing the immigration system to get so bad in the first place. That's right. And he's also blaming Democrats for the fact that legislative change hasn't coming under his administration.

He's pinning that on Democrats as well. Ultimately, Congress has got to change the laws. They got to change the laws. But at the same time, Mr. President, people say, look, you ripped these families apart. Even though it is the law, it's heartless. But that's the law, and that's what the Democrats gave us. And we're willing to change it today if they want to get in and negotiate. But they just don't want to negotiate.

They're afraid of security for our country. They're afraid of a wall. And is he right in making that argument? for our country. They're afraid of a wall. And is he right in making that argument? Was it the action or the inaction of Democrats that led the Trump administration to implement this family separation practice? I don't

think that you can argue it is. I mean, when it comes to the legislative frustration and the lack of action under this administration, both sides have really held that debate hostage with various sort of extreme policies that they've been unwilling to yield on that are deal breakers for the other side. It was a week filled with

possibility. The U.S. Senate debating a fix for young immigrants brought to the U.S. illegally as children by their parents and taking up immigration reform. We have a chance this week to get it right. In the end, the Senate rejected both a bipartisan plan and one proposed by the president. I thought our friends across the aisle would jump at this opportunity to fulfill what they say is their top priority. But they just couldn't take yes for an answer. When it comes to this bigger question about family separations and whether Trump had to resort to those as a result of Democratic action or inaction. I think what's true is that for several administrations past, you know, this question of how to lower the number of border crossers has been unanswerable. Nobody's been able to figure

it out, including President Obama. And so this action that Trump takes to start separating families, it's the most extreme move that we've seen yet. And it's to try to answer a question that, true, President Obama couldn't figure out how to answer, but no previous administration was able to before it. The dilemma is that if you're weak, if you're weak, which some people would like you to be, if you're really, really pathetically weak, the country is going to be overrun with millions of people. And if you're strong, then you don't have any heart. That's a tough dilemma. Perhaps I'd rather be strong.

And in the beginning of the Trump administration, the border numbers kind of dropped on their own really dramatically. Republicans thought that this problem would solve itself just from the president's tough talk. But sure enough, they came back to pre-election levels. And so the Trump platform and rhetoric. And the difference is that none of these previous administrations have been willing to resort to this particular practice. That's right. So has the Trump administration been trying to blame Democrats for this practice from the moment that the practice began? They have. And they actually, they went a step further in the very beginning and for months actually denied that they were separating families at all until we got access to data that showed they were. And so that kind of gives you an indication, Michael, of the level of smoke and mirrors that we've seen from the beginning, sort of semantics and obfuscation in this conversation about family separation.

I think we've made it abundantly clear that the daylight exists between Democrats and Congress and their ability to change this law. The president himself said that he doesn't, he hates these images, he hates this process, and that's why he's asked for it to be fixed. You know, once the administration was essentially busted and the country figured out they were separating families. Then came this argument that this is the Democrats' fault because they weren't willing to change existing immigration law. And so this administration had no choice but to enforce it. I feel like we keep ignoring the fact that the president isn't the one that creates the law, but it's Congress's job to create the law. And the president's already laid out and gladly stated a number of times publicly that he would sign legislation that fixes these loopholes and fixes our immigration system.

And that's where this argument totally falls apart, because Congress doesn't have anything to do with the decision to separate parents and children. Congress didn't play any role in the decision to separate families and then the decision on Wednesday to change that practice. I think that people should be begging and banging down the doors of Congress and asking them to join with the president instead of fighting him, instead of constantly criticizing, why aren't they offering solutions? You have people like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer who come out and complain and attack it's because they have no message. They have no solutions. We've laid out a solution and we'd like to see them work with us to put it in place. And how is Congress responding to the president's attempts to blame it for the separation policy? So both Republicans and Democrats in Congress

have said just stop separating parents and children, that it falls squarely within the abilities of the White House to stop doing it. And they really called the White House out on a kind of sneaky move that it's been trying to make in the last few weeks, where both the president and the Homeland Security Secretary have insisted publicly and really loudly that there is no family separation policy. Are you intending for this to play out as it is playing out? Are you intending for parents to be separated from their children? Are you intending to send a message? I find that offensive. No, because why would I ever create a policy that purposely does that? Perhaps it's a deterrence.

No. They kept repeating that line. There's a lot of misinformation about what DHS is and is not doing as it relates to families at the border. And I want to correct the record. Here are the facts. First, this administration did not create a policy of separating families at the border. It doesn't matter if there's a family separation policy or not, because parents and children were being separated. And I think both the public and Congress kind of called the White House out and said, look, we see what you're trying to do. But at the end of the day, you're still separating people from one another.

I support and all of the members of the Republican conference support the plan that keeps families together while their immigration status is determined. Congress said, you know, just stop it. Let's go back to the arguments that we were having before. families together while their immigration status is determined. Congress said, you know, just stop it. Let's go back to the arguments that we were having before. Let's go back to trying to come up with legislative fixes. But in the meantime, let's keep parents and kids together. Mr. President, you alone can fix it. In fact, the president alone can fix it with this flick of a pen by signing a presidential order to end the agonizing screams of small children who've been separated from their parents. Mr. President, I'll lend you my pen.

Any pen. You can fix it yourself. We're signing an executive order. I consider it to be a very important executive order. It's about keeping families together, while at the same time being sure that we have a very powerful, very strong border, and border security will be equal, if not greater than previously. And it seems like Congress has prevailed in that argument on Wednesday. It does, because President Trump announced an executive order in which parents and kids are going to be kept together.

So we're going to have strong, very strong borders, but we're going to keep the families together. I didn't like the sight or the feeling of families being separated. And in doing so, did Congress show that the president's arguments were pretty hollow? Because it was in fact the president, using his executive authority, who acted to end this, and Congress did nothing.

I think you could say that. I think, yes, ultimately, the president had to act to change it. And that puts this policy squarely back on him right from the beginning. Right. Congress was right in saying, you can fix this on your own. Your argument that this is a legislative matter clearly is wrong because you just fixed it. Exactly. So after days of insisting that he can't fix it, that it's really up to Congress, why do you think that Trump caved on this and acted on his own? I think the administration has faced in the last couple of weeks a level of pressure and criticism from the media,

from its supporters, from Republicans, from Democrats, from Congress, that is really, I think, unmatched under this administration. I mean, it's as if the entire country was looking at the White House and saying, why are you doing this? You know, the entire country is looking at photos and videos and hearing audio of children being separated from their parents. And it was just a red line for so many people that I think the president really felt like he had no choice. Shut it down! Shut it down! Shut it down! Shut it down! Shut it down! So how exactly does he end this thing? So he introduces an executive order that says we're still going to prosecute

everybody with zero tolerance, but we're going to make sure that parents and children are kept together. So that means we're going to sort of reinvigorate the family detention facilities that already exist. And we're also going to call on the military to try to very quickly construct more and any other federal agency that can help to contribute to make sure there's enough room to hold people in custody while also keeping them together. But was that even the issue? Isn't the entire premise of zero tolerance that everyone crossing the border will face criminal prosecution? And because of that, children have to be separated from their parents because minors can't be included in that process. So how is it possible to simultaneously maintain zero tolerance but keep families together? That was the argument. And a lot of this comes

down to looking at policies on the books and then realizing that administrations have incredible power in terms of how they want to interpret them. So in the past, when somebody was prosecuted criminally, they were automatically separated from their child because you don't send a kid to jail. But under President Obama, very, very few people were prosecuted. Okay. And now that we're in a position where far more people are going to be prosecuted, we come up against this court settlement from 1997. It's called the Flores Settlement. And that has limited the ability of administrations to hold children in custody for more than 20 days. So in the past, when you would see parents and children held in custody together, they could only stay in for 20 days and then they would have to be released. Well, that's not going to work for President Trump because we know he

hates this idea of catch and release and so do his supporters. So he's figured out a way to keep parents and children together, but to make sure they stay in custody until their cases are adjudicated and, you know, as he hopes, until most of them are deported. By eliminating this 1997 rule that said children can't be held for longer than 20 days. That's what he's trying to do. By trying to supersede that ruling with coming up with an executive order that really contradicts what it says. So the ruling says you can't keep people in custody for more than 20 days, but the executive order says you can keep people in custody indefinitely. And why didn't President Obama just do the same thing then, try to supersede this 1997 ruling? Well, because you can't just supersede court rulings,

and that's why this is very likely going to result in a very big legal battle, because Flores has been caught up in the court since 1997, and we're still seeing appeals and decisions come down on that case today. So to sort of come out of nowhere and introduce an executive order that contradicts it is an approach. That's what the Trump administration is trying to do. But you can expect that lawyers are going to challenge it. So this executive order, eliminating the separation practice but maintaining zero tolerance, is unlikely to hold up in court. You could very easily see a scenario where the policy falls apart in court and where we end up exactly where we were before family separation,

which is parents and children who cross the border together are detained for 20 days and then they're released until their cases are adjudicated. So this is exactly why other administrations have found themselves in the impossible situation that the Trump administration finds itself in. Exactly. I mean, it's incredibly difficult to come up with a policy that effectively discourages people from coming to the U.S., that lowers in a meaningful way the number of people who are coming here, but that doesn't violate their rights. And that's why, you know, administration after administration continues to throw spaghetti against the wall

and nothing sticks. So in that sense, is the president in effect right that only Congress can really solve the immigration problems? You could look at it that way. I mean, you could, again, say that you have to really step back and you have to really start over from the very beginning to come up with a change. You know, it's really hard to speculate about what's going to change the numbers of people crossing the border in a meaningful way. But you could argue that, yeah, administrations have tried just about everything at this point, and now it should fall on Congress. So in the meantime, in all likelihood, are we going right back to where we started before the Trump administration began separating children from their parents at the border a few months ago? Yes and no. I mean, we are going back to where we were earlier in the sense that parents and children are going to be held together in

custody. The difference is that until this executive order is challenged, they'll be held in custody indefinitely. And on top of that, we still have thousands of children in custody right now who've been separated from their parents and have to figure out what we're going to do with them. I mean, as we've reported, these agencies have really struggled to bring people back together. And that's a result of the fact that this separation started happening so quickly and also that it wasn't announced or referred to as a policy. And that means that a lot of the planning and groundwork that comes with a legitimate policy change didn't happen here. So we've seen both the Department of Homeland Security that's holding onto the parents and then the Health and Human Services Department that's holding onto the children really fumble

to try to connect the two with one another. And so we still have these 2,000 at least kids in custody just from recent months who've been separated from parents and we have to figure out how to reunite them. So it's true that this wasn't really a policy, and the impact of that on these children is a very real one. That's right. I mean, sort of regardless of whether a document was ever signed by the president that said the United States is, from now on, going to separate parents and children, the reality is that it happened to a lot of people

and that it's going to continue to affect these kids for a very long time. There's a problem that's gone on for many years, as you know, for many administrations, and we're working very hard on immigration. It's been just left out in the cold. Caitlin, I was struck that even in announcing this executive order on Wednesday, the president's decision to deal with this on his own, President Trump still blames the Democrats. It seems as if he's trying to frame this, even now,

as Democrats caused this terrible problem and I'm just fixing it. Exactly. Even in finally conceding on Wednesday, the president is still placing the blame for this practice and for these broader issues with the immigration system right on the Democrats. People haven't dealt with it, and we are dealing with it. So step by step, just like we dealt with North Korea,

we dealt with Iran, we dealt with an economy that was heading in the wrong direction. We dealt with a lot of different problems. This is one that has been gone on for many decades. So we're keeping families together and this will solve that problem. At the same time, we are keeping a very powerful border and it continues to be a zero tolerance.

We have zero tolerance for people that enter our country illegally. With that, I'd ask Mike Pence, Vice President. Caitlin, thank you very much. Thanks, Michael. Michael. President Trump's executive order is titled, quote, affording Congress an opportunity to address family separation, suggesting that it is still up to Congress to end the practice of separating children from their parents.

It is unfortunate, the order says, that Congress's failure to act and court orders have put the administration in the position of separating alien families to effectively enforce the law. The House is expected to vote on a bill that would end family separations later today. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Wednesday, three major U.S. airlines, United, American, and Frontier, said they would refuse to fly immigrant children separated from their parents

on behalf of the federal government. All three airlines said they objected to the Trump administration's practice. In a statement, Americans said, we have no desire to be associated with separating families, or worse, to profit from it. We bring families together, not apart.

In response, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security accused the airlines of, quote, buckling to a false media narrative. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.