The Daily - Voices of the Unvaccinated

Episode Date: August 6, 2021

Don, a 38-year-old single father from Pittsburgh, doesn’t want to be lumped into the “crazy anti-vax crowd.”Jeannie, a middle school teacher, has never vaccinated her teenage son and says she won’t start now.Lyndsey, from Florida, regrets having not had her late grandmother vaccinated against Covid-19.With the Delta variant of the coronavirus raging, we hear from some Americans who have decided not to get vaccinated. Guest: Jan Hoffman, a reporter covering behavioral health and health law for The New York Time; and Sophie Kasakove, a reporting fellow for The Times’s National Desk. Sign up here to get The Daily in your inbox each morning. And for an exclusive look at how the biggest stories on our show come together, subscribe to our newsletter. Background reading: Who are the unvaccinated in America? There’s no single answer.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. 

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. As the Delta variant rages across the U.S., the focus has turned to the estimated 90 million people who are eligible for the vaccine, but have chosen not to get it. Today, my colleagues spoke to some of those people. It's Friday, August 6th.

Can you hear me? Because I've been told all day long that my voice is fading in and out. No, I got you. Okay. Thank you very much. Let me tell you what kind of trouble we're trying to get into here. So we are, we meaning like a fleet of reporters at the New York Times, are interviewing a lot of people across America to really understand the complexity of their reasons for not being vaccinated at this point. the complexity of their reasons for not being vaccinated at this point. So we're trying to really look at what's thinking, you know, what are the social pressures on people at this point?

Yeah, I am not a crazy person. You know, when it comes to that, it's so hard to say I'm not vaccinated. And you're automatically lumped into this crazy anti-vax crowd. Mm-hmm. My colleague Jan Hoffman spoke with Don Driscoll, a 38-year-old single dad living in suburban Pittsburgh. living in suburban Pittsburgh. So tell me, before we sort of take a deep dive into vaccines, tell me a little bit about yourself, DJ. What's your full name, or do you go by DJ?

I'm DJ or Don. My full name's Donald. Okay, and what sort of work do you do? I'm an accessibility writer, mostly education, like textbooks, making everything accessible to non-sighted students. Do you live on your own? Me and my daughter. I have a seven-year-old that I have primary custody of. Okay. What is your view of other vaccines, particularly vis-a-vis your daughter? Yeah, I've got them. She's got everything

you're supposed to have. So no, I'm all for science and medicine and vaccines. I got them. Do you get the flu vaccine? I do not because I've never gotten the flu. And it's just, I'm at such a low risk of complications that it's kind of when I feel like I need to start getting it or I'll be at risk or something, I will. The only time that I got it was when my daughter was born. It was like they said they wouldn't let me in the delivery room if I didn't have the flu shot. Okay. So tell me, you know, your evolving thoughts about this vaccine. So tell me, you know, your evolving thoughts about this vaccine.

I am personally, I'm not afraid of it. I'm not one of those. I don't think there's a conspiracy. I don't think Bill Gates is shooting microchip into my veins. I don't think the Democrats want to kill half the population. I am just not an early adopter of anything, really. You know, I want a new Xbox. I haven't got one yet because I want to make sure these ones aren't blowing up or that it's not going to get an upgrade and there's going to be a better Xbox in three months. Kind of my thing. I'm not against getting this. I just don't feel the need to get it right yet because everything we're

hearing every day is changing, every day it's different. And I get it, it's because as we get new information, we're working that into our understanding. So I'm kind of just sitting back seeing how things shake out, you know, until, I don't want to say last minute, you know, but it's like when I feel I need it, like if I had to travel out of the country or something. You know, at some point I'm going to probably have no choice. You know, it's interesting. And then I would do it. It almost sounds, you know, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong.

It's almost as if the sensibility is I don't want to jump, but I'm willing to be pushed. Yeah. Yeah. But I want to be pushed and feel okay about it. I don't like these emotional arguments. People lash out saying, you're not vaccinated. You're killing everybody's grandparents. Well, the whole thing is I don't leave my house.

Like, you're not going to get me with that. I don't like people being vilified for not wanting it. I think some people have stupid reasons for not wanting it. But just like, you know, as a whole group, everybody being vilified, that's frustrating. And I could see, not me, but there's going to be people that are going to dig their heels in oh you push them the more resistant they're going to be so in your view like you say you just want to hang back and wait so do you have any sort of benchmarks in your head well if they say this then I do it or you know I guess basically the question is, what would it take aside from you have to get it to travel?

Honestly, probably something like that or if they announce tomorrow, hey guys, we actually got the new approved vaccine. Now you don't have to worry about anything with the spike protein, no variants. We'll inoculate you against everything. Right now, it's just like, all right, we'll go get it, against everything. So you...

Right now it's just like, all right, we'll go get it, but you can still get sick. Get it, but you can still give it to other people. So just every day the information's changing. So I'm kind of just sitting waiting, like, okay, when do I feel like this is going to be the most beneficial

or the most necessary? I've been doing the mask thing and distancing and whatnot for over a year, and I haven't gotten sick. So if that's been working, I can keep doing that without going to get a shot. Yeah, probably would just keep doing that. Do you identify with any particular political party in how you vote? Yeah, I'm definitely definitely fiscally conservative,

socially liberal. I guess you would say I kind of skew libertarian, but it's not really a way to vote. But I mean, I guess I lean more conservative, sure. Did you vote for Trump in the last

election? Yeah. Okay. This is like not a political decision whatsoever with me because that is ignorant. No, no, it's an Xbox decision. I totally get it. It's maybe not the greatest metaphors. I want to read the reviews a little bit on this vaccine and everything else. Like I said, because it's just constantly changing. to read the reviews a little bit on this vaccine and everything else, like I said, because it's just constantly changing. So I feel any decision I make could be negated in two days, or I might

need to make a different decision. So if I can just wait and make all the decisions at once, I don't know. I don't know what I'm waiting for. I feel like I'll know when it's time. I had the flu shots when I was younger, and that was the worst. I was sick, like, really bad. Fever for a few days, vomiting, like, four days straight. So that right there just kind of, you know, had me a little scared. So, yeah, I got older, and I'm like, I'm not getting my vaccine. Angelique White is a 28-year-old hairstylist living outside Detroit, Michigan.

My boyfriend, he had got the vaccine and he's like trying to push it on me. Like, he's just going to get the vaccine. You work around people and stuff like that. And I'm like, I don't care. Wear my mask and, you know, just sanitize my hands and do it like that. I think I'll be fine. Even today, you know, if you're ordered to be vaccinated, you still have to wear a mask. And then even if you're getting a vaccine, you still can get sick from it. So me personally, I'm not getting it, nor my kids are.

I'm not getting in on my CSR. So tell me, Jeannie, where have I reached you? Just tell me what part of the country are we? I'm in Colorado, 20 miles south of Denver. Oh, yeah. I've been there. Sure. Okay.

So tell me a little bit. How old are you? You know, the whole drill. Sure. So I'm 39 and I have a 14 year old son who's almost 15 in a couple months and he's going to be starting high school. Oh, wow. Yep. And then it's my husband who's 40. And then I also live with my mom who's 64. Okay and do you work outside the home or are you full-time homekeeper? Yeah I'm a teacher so I'm home right now but part-time like since COVID started basically. So what do you teach? How old are the kids?

Middle school math. Oh, God bless you. So is anyone in your household vaccinated? No. Okay. I'm anti-vaccine period. So I'm a very healthy person. I'm vegan. I eat really well.

I work out. I take really good care of myself. I was vaccinated when I was younger I originally am from Russia so I came to the United States when I was seven. When I came here at seven I was vaccinated I think to come from Russia to here we needed to be vaccinated

I got pretty sick and since then I have not been vaccinated my son has never been vaccinated so I'm an anti-vaccinated. So tell me something if I heard you correctly I think you said that your son has never been vaccinated is it with anything? Nope nothing. And so what was that like for you getting in into the school system? You know they're now they are making it harder now um but when it was at first um it wasn't you know you just have to say for reasons

like I just signed papers and we've never had a problem with it ever um and he's like I said he's going into high school and never had a problem with it so did And he's, like I said, he's going into high school and never had a problem with it. So did you have to... I imagine it's going to be harder now. It's going to be more of a problem now. So is any of your reasoning also faith-based?

No. I mean, it's based on the fact that I just think that vaccines are toxic things that don't need to go into your body. Let me ask you this. If any kind of mandates come

down, I'm making this up because I have no idea. Let's just say your school said you can't come to work without being vaccinated. I need to find another job okay i'm just trying to figure out what i'm 100 serious yeah i'm not going to have anybody tell me i need to get vaccinated they have no idea what my history is

what my medical reasoning is or um it's really none of anybody's business. My body's strong. I mean, gosh, if I'm meant to die from it, then you know, I'm going to die. But I really don't believe that. So I actually cold-heartedly believe that I have more of a shot of getting sick

or something happening to me by taking the vaccine. The thing that I worry about is really my kid, because when they go back to school, those kids who are vaccinated don't have to wear a mask, and the kids that are not vaccinated, you know, are going to have to wear a mask. Everybody's going to have to know.

And I do worry about that. I'll be honest. I had a talk with him, and I said, ultimately, it's your decision because I get it. I hope he doesn't do it because I've worked so hard on keeping him where he's at and not having that and being as healthy as he can possibly be in my eyes. So I hope he makes that decision, but I'm not going to make it difficult for him if he, you know, is struggling with a mask or he thinks that's what he needs to do. And so just so I understand with your son,

did you tell him he had a choice about whether to wear a mask or whether he to get vaccinated? Well, the school's not going to give him a choice to wear a mask or not. If he's not vaccinated, he's going to have to wear a mask. So yes, I told him that let's see how the school year starts. If it's really bad, if it's really bothering you, we can make a decision what you want to do. But like I said, he knows the reasoning behind. You know, he's never fought me on it before. But, you know, when your choices are taken away, when you're going to have a harder time in school because of it, then, you know, he's in there all day. So that's why I want to make sure that I'm still giving him the option. I'm not going to be like, you know, thinking he's like horrible or anything like that. Like I'm not going to judge him based on that.

But I'm definitely praying that he's not going to make that decision. All right, Jeannie, thank you very much. You have a good one, all right? Okay, sounds great. Thank you. Stay safe. You too. Bye.

Bye. We'll be right back. Yeah, I'm wondering sort of like where you're hearing things about this vaccine and vaccines in general. I mean, would you say that like most people you know have gotten it or haven't? Haven't. I know two people that have gotten it and that's it. And they had COVID, but they have underlying issues. So they were scared and they had a pretty bad, they were hospitalized. Got it. And how do other people around you sort of,

what are the hesitations that people have? It's not passed by the FDA. That's the first thing that all my family members say, that it's experimental and they don't trust it. There's not enough study done to see what the lingering effects are down the road. I don't trust our government at all. I don't know what they're putting in our bodies, and that's always been my biggest thing. My colleague Sophie Kasikov spoke with Lindsay Kiley, a mom in Port St. Lucie, Florida, who says she's had COVID twice.

Yeah, okay, so could you tell me about the two different times and what happened? The first time was Valentine's Day of 2020 before it hit the media. I got extremely sick. I lost my sense of smell, taste. I had a little bit of fever and a horrible cough. I had to quit smoking for about a month. I was terrified to put a cigarette in my mouth. I had to go to the hospital. They said I had pneumonia in both of my lungs. Nothing helped me. I just stayed in bed and I got better over time. And then as fast as it hit me, it went away. I did not wear a mask all year. We went on vacation. We lived our life. My kids went to school. We changed nothing about our lifestyle.

We still went to work. My husband and I, we didn't lose our jobs. Like everything was normal. And then my daughter graduated and we went to her graduation, and I had a small get-together at my house with about 15 people. My cousin came over and passed it to eight of us. We all tested positive within five days. When was that? That was May 27th this year, yeah. The second time was what was worse for me. I had it the worst out of all of us.

104.7 fever for about eight days off and on. I had, I couldn't even lift my arms and I slept about 14 hours a day. Wow. Did you, I mean, I imagine by then you would have, you had an opportunity to take the vaccine before that, if you wanted to, like, did getting sick make you think at all? Like, oh, I wish I had taken the vaccine. No, no, not at all. Why not? Because I knew my body would be fine. I figure let my immune system do its job because I do not get sick. I don't take any antibiotics usually unless I absolutely need them. So I knew my immune system was great.

I guess I wonder, you know, a lot of people are saying the reason to take it is even if you're healthy and you know that you can get through it, you know, for someone else, their body might less be able to do that, you know, getting the vaccine helps them. What do you say to that argument for it? That whatever people do, it's not my business. And I know that I've stayed away from people. So the whole social distancing thing worked for me. Yeah. What do you do for work? I was taking care of my grandmother until she passed.

She had dementia. Okay. And she passed. She had COVID. She went into our local hospital here. She recovered, but her body was so weak because she also had COPD beforehand, but they did put on the death certificate COPD and aspiration because it did not have anything to do with COVID. So do you think that the fact that it weakened her body?

so but do you think that the fact that it weakened her body i think yeah it definitely weakened her body yes yeah it got in her chest yeah and did she did she get it did she get at the same time as yes all of us she was at the graduation party up she was one of them out of the eight of us she would have been 89 um in august, my gosh. I'm so sorry. Yeah, she's my grandma. She was my best friend. Oh. For three years, I was with her five days a week for three years in a row. Wow.

But I made memories, so that's a plus. Yeah. I made lots of memories. And she was a great therapist because having dementia, I could tell her something and she'd forget the next day so I didn't get in trouble. That's really sweet. What was her name? Mary Lou Potter. We do regret not giving her the vaccine.

That is one thing that we did talk about as a family because of her being elderly. Yeah. Yeah, we do kind of regret it. But she was another one. She had reactions to the flu shots a couple years because she did get her being elderly. Yeah. Yeah. We do kind of regret it, but she was another one. She had reactions to the flu shots a couple of years because she did get her flu shot every year. So we were just scared. We're like, well, she gets reactions from them. You know, how is she going to deal with this? And my family and I just decided that it was because of it being experimental and it not being passed by the FDA. We just didn't trust it. We were like, we were scared to give it to her.

Yeah. Right. I'm sorry to even, it's like a really hard question, but I just, you know, the, the fact of your family member, you know, being the one that gave her COVID, like even if she wasn't vaccinated, like if that person had been vaccinated. Well, she was not vaccinated today. Yeah. She's one of her and my aunt are the only two family members that got vaccinated my aunt's got Crohn's disease and my cousin's got severe asthma and

she's the one that spread it to everyone and she feels bad um but she works in a bar so one of her customers gave it to her um so yeah they went and got vaccinated this morning they went and got vaccinated this morning. They went and got their first shot this morning. Got it. Yeah. I mean, I guess I just wonder what it feels like to know that, like, if that cousin had been vaccinated before, you know, it might not have happened. She did say she regrets it. She said that she should have working in a bar, she should have been the first one to get vaccinated. Mm-hmm. She felt the same way I did, that it wasn't approved, and she was scared. Mm-hmm. Right. I see people talking about their reactions, and then other people saying how they've had no problems at all and they've gotten it and it's been mild.

It's really, it's 50-50. You see all of it. And how do you feel when you, when you like see people who say that they didn't have any reaction and it was totally fine? Like, how do you feel like? I'm happy for them. I'm like, good. Like your body handled it great. Like, good for you. But again, let me know in 10 years if anything happens. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. It wasn't dissent. It wasn know today. It wasn't dissent.

It wasn't debate. It wasn't democracy. It was insurrection. On Thursday, President Biden signed legislation awarding the Congressional Gold Medal, Congress's highest expression of national appreciation, to police who defended the U.S. Capitol during the January 6th insurrection. And he used the occasion to rebut the growing Republican narrative that the rioters were patriots. My fellow Americans, the tragedy of that day deserves the truth above all else. truth above all else. We cannot allow history to be rewritten. We cannot allow the heroism of these officers to be forgotten. The awards come amid reports of the suicides of two more

police officers who had been at the Capitol on January 6th. So far, at least four officers have taken their own lives since the attack. And on Thursday night, the Senate was preparing to cast a closely watched vote on President Biden's $1 trillion infrastructure plan, which has been endorsed by a bipartisan group of Senate Democrats and Republicans. The bill is expected to pass, despite a new report from the Congressional Budget Office that it would add more than $250 billion to the federal deficit over the next decade. Today's episode was produced by Annie Brown and Nina Pontock.

It was edited by Lisa Chow and M.J. Davis-Lynn, engineered by Chris Wood, and contains original music by Dan Powell. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bilboro. See you on Monday.