The Daily - What Happened to Lindsey Graham?

Episode Date: March 5, 2019

Two years ago, Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina called Donald Trump a “kook,” a “bigot,” “crazy” and “unfit for office.” Now he lavishes praise on the president at every turn. What’s going on? Guest: Mark Leibovich, who interviewed the senator for The New York Times Magazine. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, two years ago, he called Donald Trump a kook, a bigot, crazy, and unfit for office. Now, he lavishes praise on the president at every turn. What happened to Lindsey Graham? It's Tuesday, March 5th. I mean, you don't even know which way the wind is blowing with the sky.

Just sessions. Well, I'm talking actually about Lindsey Graham. Oh, yeah. And who is he? I don't know what happened to the Lindsey Graham that I knew because he hasn't been showing up lately. He seems to be adrift morally, politically. I think it's mystifying to a lot of people.

It's certainly mystifying to me. What happened to Lindsey Graham, do you think? What's happened to Lindsey Graham? What happened to Lindsey Graham? What happened to Lindsey Graham? The thing about Lindsey Graham is he's one of these figures in Washington that comes with kind of a nonverbal reaction at this point. Mark Leibovich wrote about Graham for the New York Times Magazine.

You mention his name any time over the last six months to 12 months, and you get this combination grimace, shrug, follow-up question, yeah, what's going on? And in all the sort of Trump era Republican mysteries, when we ask ourselves, what happened to this person? Why is this person changing his or her mind so much now about Donald Trump? Lindsey Graham kind of is the signature mystery of the Trump era as far as what these conversions look like. Lindsey Graham grew up in a very small town in South Carolina, the town of Central South Carolina. And his parents owned a bar there called the Sanitary Cafe. And not only did they own it, but they lived in an apartment right behind the bar.

They shared a restroom with the patrons of the bar. And he went from there. He was the first member of his family to go to college. His parents died when he was in his early 20s. He joined the military. He eventually got into politics and then was elected to Congress and eventually was elected to the Senate, where over the years he's become known as kind of a reliable conservative, pretty partisan Republican. I'm Lindsey Graham, and I approve this message.

Through the Bush years. Opposed Obamacare from day one. Voting against it. Through the Obama years. He led the fight on Benghazi. He was known as someone who was a truth teller within his caucus. He's been a champion for our military, our veterans, and a fighter for South Carolina jobs. He was seen, much like McCain was, as someone who you could have a conversation with, who you could deal with. All eyes on Lindsey Graham and another Democratic member trying

to come up with some sort of bipartisan compromise. And really won a lot of bipartisan respect, a lot of respect across the aisles, took on some pretty unpopular issues within his caucus. 80% of the people would like to see these kids have a better life. 80% of the people like to begin to fix a broken immigration system. Immigration. We won't be debating about the science. We'll be debating about the solutions. Climate change. I mean, he was a big dealmaker. He, to this day, is remembered and remembered as sort of a key word because it's very past tense as someone who could speak some truth to power and someone who was seen as a reasonable, independent conservative. Let me tell you about Senator McCain.

And he also was like a sidekick, kind of the Gilligan to John McCain's skipper. He would die for this country. I love him to death. He was always at his side. The two of them had sort of similar senses of humor. The reason why Lindsey is not married is because he can't find anyone that loves him as much as he does. And was always, again, very derivative of the energy that John McCain brought to everything that John McCain did. So, 2015. I'm Lindsey Graham, and I'm running for president of the United States. Lindsey Graham decides he's going to run for president.

You know, he lost. So I never liked him as much after that, because I don't like losers. And right out of the gates, Donald Trump insults John McCain. He's not a war hero. He's a war hero. Five and a half years. He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured, okay? I hate to tell you.

He was asked, you know, is John McCain a hero? And Donald Trump said, no, he's not. I like people who weren't captured. I don't need a poll to tell Donald Trump. It's not good to say that John McCain's a loser because he was captured in a time of war. Lindsey Graham, as John McCain's best friend, was extremely, you know, took great umbrage at this. I don't care if he drops out. Stay in the race. Just stop being a jackass. Called Trump. I think it was a jackass. Today I got called a jackass by this guy. Then I said to myself, hey, didn't this guy call me like four years ago? Yes.

Donald Trump then at a campaign event decided. I wrote the number down. I don't know if it's the right number. Let's try it. 202. You know, yell out Lindsey Graham's cell phone number, which, to my memory, has never been done before in American politics. Predictably, the crank calls, the threats, commenced immediately on Lindsey Graham's cell phone. I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy. I think he's unfit for office. So the phone thing happens. Their relationship did not improve over the course of the campaign.

He's a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot. To say the least. And then even when Donald Trump was elected, even when he became president, Lindsey Graham and John McCain were still none too happy with the fact that Donald Trump was president. They kind of held their powder for a while. They weren't terribly vocal, but there were certain occasions where Lindsey Graham was actually quite vocal and really wasn't trying to hide his feelings at all. After the Charlottesville demonstration and ultimately murder. If I were president of the United States and these people showed sympathy

toward me and my agenda, it would bother me. And I would urge the president to dissuade them of the fact that he's sympathetic to their cause. Lindsey Graham was extremely outspoken about how the president should not have spoken out seemingly in favor of the white nationalists. Because their cause is hate. It is un-American. They are domestic terrorists. And we need more from our president on this issue. And also about a summer later, when Donald Trump and President Putin had that joint press conference in Helsinki, and the president seemed to side with President Putin

over the conclusion of his own intelligence that Russia meddled with the election of 2016. He's misjudging Putin. I don't think he was prepared as well as he should have been. Lindsey Graham was not shy at all about speaking out. This was a missed opportunity. We reinforced a narrative that's bad for us as a nation. It came across weak. But then something weird happened. I am like the happiest dude in America right now. We've got a president and a national security team that I've been dreaming of for eight years. I like the president.

I want to help him. I hope he's successful. He's been a friend to me. President Trump has the smarts and the moral courage to listen to his generals. I am all in. Keep it up, Donald. I'm sure you're watching.

President Trump deserves the Nobel Peace Prize and then some. If you don't like me working with President Trump to make the world a better place, I don't you're watching. President Trump deserves the Nobel Peace Prize and then some. If you don't like me working with President Trump to make the world a better place, I don't give a shit. So that's why people are asking what happened to Lindsey Graham. And I was asking it myself. I mean, I don't think there was a sharper pivot from vehemently anti-Trump to, you know, enthusiastically pro-Trump more so than Lindsey Graham within the Republican Party. So I decided that I would spend some time with Lindsey Graham and see if I could ask him enough questions that maybe he could shed some light on this for me. Senator.

Hey, man. Good to see you. Pull up the chair. So, Mark, where did you start your conversation with Graham? So, just figure I'd start with this. I mean, since... I asked Lindsey Graham how he was getting along without John McCain. I miss John.

I miss him a lot. I mean, I hadn't seen him since John McCain had passed away, which would have been in August. I still, on occasion, want to pick up the phone and call him. Mm-hmm. in August. I still, on occasion, want to pick up the phone and call. So it was a relationship that was like a political marriage. And he said he was doing okay. He misses him. He thinks about him all the time. You know, he loved the contest. He loved being relevant. He kept himself relevant. But from there, he jumped immediately to how John McCain made him feel, loved being relevant. He kept himself relevant. But from there, he jumped immediately to how John McCain made him feel, which was relevant. Yeah. And I like being relevant.

And the way you stay relevant is you stay engaged. There's a lot of space here to take on tough issues because most people shy away from them. So Lindsey Graham said, like, John and I were relevant together. I mean, it was like we're sharing a meal together. We're sharing a value system together. And that value system was relevance. And I was confused by the word. I said, what do you mean by that? And he said, relevant is like in the middle of everything. Relevant is you're making a difference.

It means that during the time in which you possess political influence and power, use it. John McCain was always surrounded by an entourage. He was always surrounded by cameras. He was always surrounded by a sense that because John McCain was there, something momentous was happening. And Lindsey Graham, by virtue of residency in that orbit, was able to reap that also. And so how does Graham explain to you how his relationship with Trump develops and how this evolution kind of lands with him having a relationship with Trump. I was calling Trump a race-betting, religious, xenophobic.

Did you mean that when you said that stuff about Trump? Yeah, I didn't vote for him. I thought his campaign was... You didn't vote for him in general? No. Who'd you vote for? I vote for Evan, whatever the guy's name is, what knows who walked in the door. That dude.

But I lost. I mean, the people have spoken. So, okay. Let's see how we can help this guy be a good president. I think he knew intuitively that he needed to build a relationship fairly quickly, in part because of political realities in South Carolina and the fact of his reelection coming up in 2020. But I didn't call him.

So he called me about six weeks after he said, let's talk. Donald Trump sort of short circuited the process by calling him first. He says, I don't have your phone number. And I said, there's a reason for that. Because I had to throw it out because you ruined it. And yes. And then he took me to the place right off the oval office and we had lunch and we talked for an hour.

He really seemed to care what I think, what I thought. Yeah. And he said, you know, I know we've had our differences, but I'd like you to help me. I said,

I'll be glad to help you. I want you to be successful. Do you like him on a superficial, like we golf together, we have a little rapport level? No, let me tell you this. That's what's changed. So you feel like genuine? Well, so, I don't want to be Zygmunt Freud. He's got a tough job.

Sure. I mean, he doesn't have a whole group of old friends. Right. The guy is president of the United States. Right. This stuff is coming at him at Mach 2 and 3. Mm-hmm. He feels completely under siege, you know, from the Mueller stuff.

Yeah. And he is trying to navigate all the things that come with being Donald Trump. But there's a side to him that I'm pulling for him now. Does that make sense? Were you before? No. Like, give me a time frame. A couple weeks ago? I think it's been the last year.

Really? Okay. Yeah. So what actually happens in the past year between Lindsey Graham and President Trump that explains this? They're spending a lot of time together. I've never been called this much by a president in my life. What's that like? It's weird and it's flattering.

Is that what's that like? It's weird and it's flattering. And the time they're spending together, the votes Lindsey Graham is casting for the Trump agenda. The judges have been good. The tax cuts, deregulation, all this work. He's rebuilt the military. They're on tax reform, whether on repealing the Affordable Care Act that was both in 2017, but into 2018 on foreign policy. I'm hoping through him that we can do some things in North Korea that maybe we couldn't have done otherwise.

Lindsey Graham has certainly ascended to the role of, you know, one of Donald Trump's two or three closest advisors on the Hill. The backdrop to this, though, is that Lindsey Graham's best friend, John McCain, is going through a very, though, is that Lindsey Graham's best friend, John McCain, is going through a very, very public, difficult illness. And Donald Trump basically didn't let up at all. He was still criticizing John McCain for his vote against the Affordable Care Act repeal of 2017. But also John McCain, through his office, even through his illness, was not shy about criticizing Donald Trump for things like Helsinki, Charlottesville, and Donald Trump was not one to let this lie and was going to bash John McCain right back. So you had this situation where Lindsey Graham and the president were becoming very close and public friends, whereas John McCain was dying a very, very slow and tragic

and public death. So I think people began to ask this question, what was going on with Lindsey Graham, in maybe a more personal framework, because John McCain and he were known to be so close, and John McCain obviously was very sick. And I wonder, did you ask Graham about how McCain felt about this developing relationship between Graham and Trump,

considering their past and McCain's place in it? Yeah, I did. Here's what I told John. He's president, and I've seen you, once the election's over, embrace people. Sure. And that's what I admired the most about you. Right.

And, you know, if you could go to Vietnam and forgive him, anybody could. Sure. If you could work with Obama, anybody could. And I want to stay in this guy's orbit. So, in a way, you're reminding John McCain of his own example, but also appealing to the ego that John McCain obviously had in very, very high measure. And do you know if McCain essentially blessed this or said, I understand, Lindsay? I don't think he blessed it.

I think that's he blessed it. I think that's probably too strong. But I think John McCain, as well as anyone, understands politics. Also, look, he had other things to worry about. He was dying. He was sort of getting his legacy and his affairs in order. He was not at his best in the last year of his life when he was battling brain cancer and so forth. So what I've done for Trump is, I don't think inconsistent with what I've done with others, but here's the difference. It's more important and he's receptive. So John McCain passes away in August and then just a few weeks later, you had the crescendo of the Brett Kavanaugh hearings. I mean, we all remember, you know, a very, very powerful day where there was a sense for about, you know, maybe two-thirds of the day that Justice Kavanaugh was in real trouble, that Dr. Ford's story was extremely compelling. Then all of a sudden, Republicans on the committee were speaking, and Lindsey Graham gave this real show-stopping speech. This is the most unethical sham since I've been in politics. And if you really wanted to know the

truth, you sure as hell wouldn't have done what you've done to this guy. That at the moment, you know, people thought, you know, might have really changed the momentum of this thing. Boy, y'all want power. God, I hope you never get it. Right. In which he essentially assails the Democratic members of the committee for basically being power-hungry and soulless. Power-hungry and smearing and ruining

Brett Kavanaugh's life. Did you feel like in any way you had an audience in the White House? I mean, were you thinking there was not an audience? I was pissed at everybody on the other side. Genuinely? It was just like, okay, I voted for your guys. What's going on here? I was pissed at everybody on the other side. Genuinely. It was just like, okay, I voted for your guys. What's going on here? I was furious with the way the guy was treated.

I've had a very fixed view about the law. I mean, that's been my lane. And I just think, you know, I don't want to ruin the judiciary because we can't get along up here. It was a very pitched and partisan setting, obviously. I think the collateral damage there is what it did to his reputation across the aisle, which has not been repaired yet. But in a sense, that sort of played to some very, very strong suits that Lindsey Graham had, beginning with being something that was delightful to the president of the United States and his base. The thing I like about the president is that he has allowed me in that space. And after Kavanaugh, it's even been more. I can imagine.

He likes a fighter. After the Kavanaugh hearings, I think the question that everybody has on some low level about what happened to Graham is now the question we're all openly asking. What happened to Lindsey Graham? So did you actually pose that question?

Yes, I did. You seem a little sick and tired of the what's happening to Lindsey Graham question. Yeah, well, it's just like, yeah, like, okay. Nothing, from my point of view. If you know anything about me, it'd be odd for me not to do this. Now, what is this? To work with him or try to be relevant? In a sense, he uses the notion

of relevance as a catch-all. But to what end? I mean, because you're into the answer to the objectives that I want. Look, the uncharitable way of describing this would be opportunism. that I want. Look, the uncharitable way of describing this would be opportunism. The charitable way of saying this would be influence. And the fact is,

one of the central dynamics of Washington circa 2019, circa the Trump administration, is that never has the decision point been so wrapped up in the mercurialness of one single person as it is right now

in Donald Trump's orbit. And Lindsey Graham has made himself a part of that orbit. Now, it might not last beyond next week. It might not last beyond his reelection. Who knows where this is going to end? Lindsey Graham posed that question himself to me. But for now, he seems to think it's very, very advantageous for him politically. But I want to linger on that word opportunism, because if you look at the chronology, one view, and perhaps it's the most cynical view, is that Lindsey Graham, in the name of relevance, attached himself to the biggest star in Republican politics

for a very long time, and that was Senator John McCain. And then when Senator John McCain declines and ultimately dies, Lindsey Graham looks for the next biggest star to attach himself to, and that happens to be Donald Trump. And so despite the fact that these two men disdain each other and represent very different sides of the Republican Party, the constant is Lindsey Graham seeking out the star.

It is. And at one point, I just sort of like blurted out, do you trust him? Meaning the president. And it took him a while to answer. He seemed taken aback by that. And what he said was, I trust him to want to be successful, which, you know, it's kind of a non-answer. I mean, what president doesn't want to be successful, right? I mean, I think if I were

to ask him, do you trust John McCain? He would say, I trust John McCain to love America and to always do what is right for America and to always work for a cause greater than himself. I remember asking him at one point, do you think Donald Trump believes in a cause greater than himself? And he said something to the effect that, well, Donald Trump's a showman. He's a larger than life figure. He wants to be successful. Look, there are a lot of people who say, you know, Lindsay, you know better. How can you live with yourself? What are you doing? And he couches it in the virtue of, look, I believe very strongly in certain things around Syria, around Afghanistan, around judges. That it is about outcomes. That I've got an opportunity up here,

working with the president to get some outcomes that could be really good for the country. And I think from my point of view, good for the world. Being relevant to Donald Trump, being in his orbit helps me influence the things that I think are good for our country. And then and good for your reelection, I cynically said, and also good for Lindsey Graham's reelection. Yeah. I mean, if you don't want to get reelected, you're in the wrong business. He sort of glibly said, well, if you don't want to get reelected, you're in the wrong business. He sort of glibly said, well, if you don't want to be reelected, you're in the wrong business. I mean, this question of what is going on with Lindsey Graham is so present around him. It's come to define him so much that he felt completely at home even raising the question rhetorically on the stump in South Carolina. There was a dollar and you got to do a small program.

There was a Republican lunch we went to in Greenville where he was saying, What happened to me? And he said it twice. And he said, What's happened to Lindsey Graham? Not a damn thing? Not a damn thing. And people kind of like nodded knowingly. And what he was doing was sort of owning the question. He was sort of taking it as a part of his political identity. But at the same

time, he was being defiant about it, too. And he kept talking about how like, look, all the smart people in Washington, they hate us. The people in the media, they hate us. You know, they hate him, him being Donald Trump. You know, essentially, it's sort of an old populist refrain, which is they don't, they look down on our way of life. Literally the next day in his office in Washington, he was talking about how you showcase your issues. This is what you do when you're running for reelection. He was, he was being, he was becoming one of the smart people. He was talking to me, wise guy to wise guy. And he was essentially giving away the game as if, you know, his Senate office in Washington and a luncheon hall in Greenville, South Carolina were completely different worlds that have nothing

to do with each other. And it sounds like at the end of the day, he is being honest in the sense that nothing did happen to him. He is the same guy. Yeah. Here's the thing. I was pretty struck by how honest, how candid he was in talking about what his game was, what he was doing. Him explicitly saying, you showcase your issues, meaning you say certain things when you're running for reelection, essentially. To certain audiences. it in 2010, John McCain turned himself into the most conservative senator in the Senate when he was running for re-election in 2010. That was the re-election when John McCain sort of tried to disassociate himself with the term maverick when, in fact, two years earlier, he had based his entire presidential campaign about being a maverick. People at that point were asking, what's going on with John McCain? So I think, in a sense, he was pointing out the synergy between his hero eight years ago and what he was going through today. But again, that's a pretty, you know,

transparent way of looking at and describing what is happening to someone when they are essentially doing political contortions. Lindsey Graham is, one, a good politician, two, someone who is fully aware of what the political reality is for him as a conservative or someone who wants to be reelected in a very conservative state, in a very conservative party, and is someone who knows

very much how Washington works. That he's upfront about what this is and what it isn't and the degree to which this is an opportunistic, transactional relationship. Yeah, he would call it politics. Mark, thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. Great to be with you.

Thank you very, very much. Wow. Wow, I came to the right place. Over the weekend, Lindsey Graham spoke at the annual gathering of the Conservative Political Action Conference, where he once again praised President Trump and boasted about their close relationship. And I couldn't be more proud of the fact that he talks to me

and he asks my opinion. And we've got a lot in common now. I like him and he likes him. And, uh, we'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Monday, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jerry Nadler, requested records from more than 80 individuals and organizations connected to President Trump as the committee launches a sweeping investigation into whether the president abused power and obstructed justice.

The requests were delivered to Trump's business partners, White House staff, and family members, including the president's two sons, Eric and Donald Jr. And they touch on everything from the president's payments of hush money to women to his financial dealings with Russia. Are you going to cooperate with Mr. Nadler? At the White House on Monday, Trump was asked about the new investigation. I cooperate all the time with everybody. And you know the beautiful thing?

No collusions. It's all a hoax. And the Times reports that Huawei, the Chinese company developing 5G cellular networks around the world, is planning to sue the U.S. government for banning federal agencies from using the company's technology. The ban is based on the Trump administration's fear that Huawei is a national security threat whose products could allow the Chinese government to spy on and disrupt American communications networks.

In the lawsuit, Huawei will argue that the 2018 legislation that bars its technology within federal agencies violates the Constitution by singling out one organization for punishment without a trial. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.