The Daily - 'What Kind of Message Is That?': How Republicans See the Attack on the Capitol

Episode Date: January 19, 2021

Polling in the days since the storming of the Capitol paints a complex picture. While most Americans do not support the riot, a majority of Republicans do not believe that President Trump bears responsibility. And over 70 percent of them say they believe that there was widespread fraud in the election.Before President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration, we called Trump supporters to hear their views about what happened at the Capitol and to gauge the level of dissatisfaction the new president will inherit.Guest:Jennifer Medina, a national politics reporter for The New York Times.For an exclusive look at how the biggest stories on our show come together, subscribe to our newsletter. You can read the latest edition here.Background reading: A Pennsylvania woman accused of taking Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s laptop during the attack on the Capitol turned herself in to the police.Mr. Trump has prepared a wave of pardons for his final hours in office. Among those under consideration: the former New York Assembly speaker Sheldon Silver and the rapper Lil Wayne.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily 

How do you think most of the people listening to this podcast think of the events on January 6th? For them, I think it's the most abhorrent behavior they've seen. It's pure violence. Trump has incited all his people to go completely crazy and try and take over the government. And it's pure anarchy. And is that how you see it? No. From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro.

This is The Daily. We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved. Stop the steal! Stop the steal! In the days since the storming of the Capitol, This is wrong. It is absolutely wrong.

This is Banana Republic crap. U.S. government officials have denounced the actions of those who participated. This mob was not without a leader. And Democrats. On that day, the president told them to walk to this Capitol, 16 blocks from where he stood. Led a vote to impeach the president for his role in inciting supporters to act on his behalf. He is proven to be unfit and dangerous. But polling shows a complex portrait of the Republican Party in the riot's aftermath.

I'm not going to sit there and throw out blaming accusations towards our president. While the overwhelming majority of Americans do not support the riot, the majority of Republicans do not believe that the president bears responsibility for it. Those who chose to act in unlawful manners should be held responsible.

And more than 70% continue to believe that there was widespread fraud in the election. We have dead people voting. It all just seems very, very shady to me. Despite court rulings and recounts proving conclusively that there was not. Today. As the country prepares to inaugurate a new president, my colleagues spoke with some of the outgoing president's supporters about how they see what happened at the Capitol

and the world of misinformation that Joe Biden will inherit. It's Tuesday, January 19th. I'm a producer for The Daily, and I called Kim Vandenbush in Wisconsin. She's 57 years old, and she's a full-time student in graphic design. How would you characterize what happened on Wednesday, January 6th? I've got mixed emotions. I don't believe in violence at all. But I believe that there was a reason for this. Information is being suppressed by the media. It's where our voices are being controlled and what we can say, what we can hear. I think a lot of people are getting really sick of it. That's not how the constitution rolls. So your sense was there had to be a reason.

Could you say more about that? Like, do you have a sense of like, who's behind this? Or do you know anybody who wanted to go to DC or has been involved? Oh, I did. I did. I would have loved to. My mother, my family, my boyfriend. Yeah, we would have loved to have gone. And why didn't you? Because I'm in school. Oh, got it. Okay, got it. So what do you think that that crowd set out to accomplish? People are fed up. I know all my friends and all my relatives, we're all fed up. If Biden got elected fair and square, I'd be fine with it.

But there's too much out there that's saying that that didn't happen. It's blatantly clear to me. I have my eyes wide open. I looked at both sides and I see what I see. What do you think of the fact that a number of courts have struck down cases about election fraud and many, many lawmakers have said that it's time to move on to the next president. That doesn't affect your feeling that there has been fraud? Absolutely not. They didn't have time to listen to all the evidence. What would convince you that Biden did win the election? Show me the proof that there is not proof.

What kind of proof do you think would be enough? A lot. There's so much out there that the dead people voting the animals that were voting that telling everybody to go home and then there's nobody there to watch

these votes tallied there's just way too much parlor parlor has been shut down now YouTube anything that's talking against Biden or for Trump is being shut down. Our voices aren't going to be heard, but this is where I was getting all my information from. From Parler?

Uh-huh. Rumble, O-A-N-N. Their news is both ways. They're not all against Trump or all against Biden. Their news is fair. So what do you think should happen next? I'm just waiting to see. Something's going to happen. This isn't the end of it. A lot of people are talking civil war. Do you expect there to be more violence? Oh, yeah. And how do you feel about that?

I feel terrible, but something's got to be done. So you think that violence is like a necessary... I'm against it. I'm against it. But if this country is going to turn communist, I am all for it. China is behind so much. They have troops ready to come over to make sure that Biden gets in peacefully. Once they are here, they are here, they are here. Hi, Chris. Hi. Hi, Jenny. How are you doing?

Good. How are you doing? I'm okay. Can you hear me okay? I can hear you okay. Perfect. This is Jennifer Medina, a national politics reporter for The Times. I first met Cruz de Pela in the run-up to the November election. I'd gone to Arizona to interview Latino voters, and I ran into him outside the small Latinos for Trump office.

So I decided to call him back up. Last Wednesday, when the rioters stormed the Capitol, did you watch that as it happened? You know, it's funny. Well, not funny, ha,

but it's strange that I wasn't watching TV. I haven't been for a while. But I happened to be walking by a TV, and I see that. I see these people. And I literally

probably, I mean, I felt like the blood drained from my body. I thought that, why? Because I thought it was on. I thought this was Civil War. This is done. You know, everybody, the conspiracy theorists were right.

You know, it's over. The first thing that came to my mind was, where's my mom and where are my guns? Where's my mom and where are my guns? Because I literally looked at the TV and I was terrified. It was happening. Like it's happened in other countries. Like it's happened here before, Lincoln. I mean, I was just...

I literally thought I could take a breath. I didn't even turn the volume on. And then I walked away. Because I don't want to see it. Do you hold the president responsible for what happened at the Capitol at all? Absolutely not. I can hold dozens of people

and years of events that led up to the Capitol. And that's bipartisan. Everybody that bitched, moaned, didn't do something to help somebody else out, you know, couldn't have a bipartisan conversation.

Everybody that, every Trump supporter that wanted to talk to a Biden supporter and said, hey, what do you think about, they told him to F off, versus the vice, we're all to blame. The president last week, he got up in front of the crowd before the storming of the Capitol and said, and I'm quoting, we will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn't happen.

You don't concede when there's theft involved. And we fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. I agree. You agree? Agree. Agree with the statement. And you don't think that's revving people up to what happened? Those people were already revved up.

And those people were waiting for somebody to say something. Now, I took it as an overall fight, like Trump 2024. I mean, I didn't see it. It just made me want to storm the Capitol building. It made me go, damn right, it ain't over. We'll get him next year. You know, yeah, yeah. A really bad choice of words and timing and all that other stuff. It just made me want to storm the Capitol building. It made me go, damn right, it ain't over. We'll get him next year. You know, yeah, yeah.

Really bad choice of words and timing and all that other stuff. Well, it's Trump. He's done that a lot. So I want to go to the impeachment. The House just voted to impeach the president. So I'm curious what you're feeling right now. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I can almost tell you what's going to happen.

I'd love to be wrong. The worst thing you can do to an injured animal is corner it. I mean, this is stuff your grandfather tells you when you're a kid. Never corner an injured animal. You know, don't spit in the wind. Don't put fuel on a fire. Let it sleep in my life. All the most simple things I've ever heard that I live by

right out the window here. Hi, is this Chris? Can I ask who you're calling? Yeah, my name's Sydney. We spoke on Wednesday outside of the rally down in D.C. How are you? I'm doing just fine. How about you? I'm good. I'm good.

I'm Sydney Harper, a producer at The Daily. I met Chris Wilkerson at the Trump rally on January 6th. He's 34 years old and he works in auto repair in South Carolina. Can you tell me a little about what you were feeling that day and what people around you were feeling? I was feeling very patriotic that day. I'm going to be honest with you. I've never been a part of something that big. You had a bunch of hardworking, blue-blooded Americans who were all there to voice their complaint about the fact that we've all been taken advantage of

and the government's telling us to sit back and like it. You have to understand that even though Joe Biden is fixing to be our president, you still have 75 million people who are not going away. There's 75 million people who are utterly disgusted with the way that our government is being operated right now. And something has to be done about that. I'm curious, what was going through your mind as you were hearing the president's speech and he was calling for going to the Capitol?

People on that side of the street couldn't understand a word that was coming out of those speakers. The echo and the noises from the crowd and all of those people, you saw how many people there was out there. That's pretty hard to hear. Personally, the parts of it that I did hear and that I could understand, I didn't hear any calls from nobody to go rush the Capitol building and tear down doors and break windows. I never heard the man say that at all. It was about our voices being heard because no one cares. Everybody from the left says, well, you voted for Donald Trump, so you're a bad person. There's no discussing this. You're just

terrible people. And after you listen to that for years and years and years and years, you get tired of hearing it. You get absolutely tired of hearing it. You have to understand there's a breaking point. And when no one else wanted to listen, when no one else wanted to feel like Trump supporters actually mattered and Republicans actually mattered and conservatives actually mattered. Republicans and conservatives alike got together, and they went to Washington. Now, again, no one should have ever went inside of that Capitol building, ever. That never should have happened. Anybody who thinks that was okay is, again, part of the issue here. again, part of the issue here. You don't storm a building with all of our congressional and House members and our vice president and his family inside of it at once and think that you're

going to get away with it. The people who went inside that building, I could not tell you what they set out to accomplish. I can't attest for them. They're all their own individuals. But again, you can't paint everyone who was at that rally with that broad brush, which is what's happened. You've got, at this point, there's not one person, according to the left, who was at that rally for a peaceful reason. You saw how many people were there. Do you believe that? We'll be right back. This is Elise Spiegel, producer for The Daily. Elise?

Yes. Hi, let me turn you up. Okay. Amy Nobile is a suburban mom who lives in an ordered and polite world. Her family has an enormous house outside Atlanta, part of a community which, by design, feels a million miles away from the anger and lawlessness that descended on the Capitol on January 6th. Quite a happening. Yeah, quite a crazy bunch of happenings.

I'd met Amy while reporting on the recent elections in Georgia. She'd come to our interview dressed as an elf because she'd been volunteering at her son's school for the holidays. But when I caught up with her last week, the cheer of Christmas felt like a long time ago. Did you know about the Trump rally and what did you think it would be? I did know of it. I knew a lot of people going to it. I knew people that were there, not directly, but through a group that we all share information and commiserate, that kind of thing. Amy is a Trump supporter. And like millions of other Trump supporters, she believes there was a massive

fraud on November 3rd and that Donald Trump is the true president of the United States. In fact, if Amy hadn't had a conflict, she herself might have gone to the rally. I wanted to thank him. I wanted to tell him I'm on his side. Amy had been hearing about the event through this group text that she's on. It's devoted to President Trump. Started as, from what I know, a total of seven moms who wanted to show support for Trump. And so they started holding signs and intersections around, you know, Metro Atlanta where I live. But the group grew. Now Amy says it's more than 200 people. It's a group through text. I don't want to give too much information because honestly, we are being silenced by places like Parler and Twitter

and Facebook. So I honestly don't even feel safe telling you what mediums we're using. We're actually telling each other, go to this medium. They're not going to censor us. Put in this in your phone in case the emergency broadcast system takes over. One month ago, Amy would never have predicted that the texts buzzing in her pocket would concern emergency broadcast systems. She read me the texts from January 5th. What can we do?

The country is being stolen. They will pack the court. What can we possibly do? The day before Trump supporters stormed Congress, there were a few people expressing doubt. But inevitably, their doubts were overwhelmed by cries of keep the faith. Trump has a plan. Trump has not given up on us, and we will never give up on him.

We have to fight until the day we die to protect our children. You're right. Can't lose faith. I'm going to take a deep breath, finish this Vodka Tonic, pray, and focus on tomorrow. Then came the day of the storming. We are so grateful for President Donald J. Trump. He's been fighting for us for the last four years, and we're here to stand up and fight for him. I was listening to WSB radio in Atlanta. Amy says she was at her home on her computer. The radio was bubbling in the background,

and people from her group who'd gone to the rally were providing additional color by text. Tens of thousands of Trump supporters in D.C. turning the city into a sea of red, white and blue. But then around two came the tweet that got Amy's full attention. They just stormed the Capitol at 2.09 is when I see it. Amy says her first thought was that this must be Antifa. And from her text, it looks like she wasn't alone. Do you think it's us or Antifa posing as us? Absolutely Antifa.

They said they were going to infiltrate the patriots. Someone else said, I think so too. But that feeling slowly crumbled. As it went on and I saw more people involved and I heard crazy right wing people supposedly on their cell phones from the Capitol. We need to be heard. I said, that woman doesn't represent me. That woman's not part of my group. That woman's like no one I know that's supporting Donald Trump. And I don't want anything to do with her, nor does the president.

She read messages from others in her group, people who were having a very different response. This is what I call standing up against corruption. Then around 3.30 came news that truly horrified Amy. Confirmed one person has been shot in all caps. horrified, Amy. Confirmed one person has been shot in all caps. Everybody was devastated, upset, not happy. I was so sad. I thought, if it is our people, what kind of message is that? It doesn't help anything. It's counterproductive. It's dangerous. It's disgusting. That's It's counterproductive. It's dangerous. It's disgusting.

That's not how our country works. That's not what a peaceful protest is. Still, Amy says she was really surprised when mainstream news outlets started broadcasting that President Trump was to blame. I don't blame Trump at all for this violence. I know people think he wanted it and he was probably rejoicing from it, but no. Did you hear that Trump resisted calling on the National Guard? I did hear that. I don't believe that he did that. His words are, I immediately called out the National Guard. And at this point, if I'm going to listen to the media or Trump, I'm going Trump. Or Trump? I'm going Trump.

But even though she doesn't blame Trump, Amy says for days after the storming, she and the other Trump supporters she knows felt absolutely terrible. Everybody was just so depressed. They just kept calling, I'm so down. I don't want to go out. I don't want to see people. And we were depressed that a few bad apples either spoiled the bunch or that the message was being contorted. But then, Amy says, her feelings started to shift. I think what happened at the Capitol was disgusting. It was abhorrent. It was horrible. But on the same side, I think what happened in New York City, Atlanta, Chicago, name a city. I've watched cities burn. I've watched

police precincts burned. I've watched lawless zones where a part of the city has been taken over. And I've heard governors and mayors say, give them room. Amy says that she and the other Trump supporters she knows also feel like they're supporting a just cause. They've been told by their president and many, many Republican leaders that an election in the United States has been brazenly stolen. election in the United States has been brazenly stolen. If you believed that to be true, wouldn't you also protest and maybe feel less shaken by any violence that resulted? I didn't think this was any different than all the violence I've been watching that I hated all along. And now all of a sudden, because they're wearing Trump hats, I should think that it's an outrage against humanity. I think both sides are a lot more alike than people realize.

And I think they don't get to know that. But the thing that really inflamed Amy and hit close to home was the deplatforming of Trump and not just Trump. Amy says in the aftermath of the riot, she and the members of her group have been scrambling to communicate. And that is, to me, the thing that takes me from sad, maybe not, yeah, I guess angry, because amendment number one in the Constitution, everybody knows it, is freedom of speech. She says she's not the only one who's absolutely furious about the deplatforming.

You've got people so angry about this and so scared, terrified in a way they've never been terrified. Feels like, like, honestly, I am sure that there are going to be people who hear you talking about Twitter suspending the president and what a threat this is. And they will feel like, well, here is a really bad thing that happened that you're avoiding confronting. Do you know what I mean? It's a distraction. Sure. I think that's a fair point. And I think people will see what they want to see.

But I don't think I'm in denial. The violence was horrible. I was depressed from it. I was disgusted by it. I think people want to hear us say Trump did this. People finally want to hear that his supporters have turned their back on him. But that, Amy believes, will never happen. I think people are desperate not to see this go forward. Desperate not to see Biden go forward? Oh, absolutely. And she says

many still aren't ready to give up, even people in her local suburban group that was started by seven sign-holding moms. Stock your house with water, get cash out of the bank. I mean, I've heard it all. That's how bad it is. I think there are a certain number of people that think we're heading towards a civil war. I don't have a taste for that. I'll leave the country before I'll be involved in a civil war. I have heard some people say that they think maybe a state like Texas, Alabama, Louisiana. And again, I'm just speaking from hearsay. I'm not speaking from a news perspective or anything of that nature. But I've heard people say some of the states will secede.

And I would move there in a heartbeat. I would go. Amy says thoughts of the election are now infecting every part of her life. And I'm becoming someone that literally looks at every person I walk down the street and go, are they one of ours or one of theirs? I don't.

I literally look for signs. I'm profiling people not by the color of their skin or the nature of their character, by what I think they're thinking about the election. She says at night, she think they're thinking about the election. She says at night, she sometimes finds herself thinking about plans people in her group have floated, far-fetched theories of how Trump might take back the presidency. I don't know, I lay awake at night and wonder,

oh gosh, if only, I hope that happens. And then part of me goes, gosh, I hope that doesn't happen. What will it do to the country? What would happen? What kind of rioting would there be? What kind of unrest would there be? Hello? Hey, is this Gary?

Yeah. I'm producer Daniel Guimet. This is really weird because I've never had like anybody call me from like about anything

like this before well first time for everything and I recently called up Gary Jocks a 36 year old man from Arizona

I live near Phoenix I work in Odessa, Texas I'm a lead mechanic in the fracking world okay I live near Phoenix. I work in Odessa, Texas. I'm a lead mechanic in the fracking world. Okay. I know a lot of people have their own opinions on that.

I've been here for nine years in the same company. Are you outside right now? Out at the fields right now? No, I'm just now coming back to the man camp to end my shift right now. Being out here, we're in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, what does it look like around you right now? I'm just actually curious. Flat. All flat. As far as you can see, nothing. And then

can I ask you, who did you vote for this election? Donald Trump. I mean, just for the oil field wise, that's my job. So I kind of had to go towards the right. How would you characterize what you saw happen on Wednesday, January 6th? I mean, I don't appreciate what they did. A lot of people are going a little too far in thinking that their rights are getting taken away.

How important in your mind was Donald Trump's speech earlier that day before the people stormed and got into the Capitol building? How important do you think that speech was in motivating the occupation? Oh, it was very big. I mean, it seemed like to me like he made it worse. Like he didn't condemn it at all. He was okay with what happened. I just wish he came out and said that, you know, this, this isn't what we're about. You know, we're better than this. These people shouldn't have died over our views.

So he should have came out and just said, this was wrong. These people should go to jail. You know, we have all their pictures. You know, this is what caused this person to die. These people are what caused this police officer to die. You know, these people need to go to jail. This was not right. You know, it should have just been straightforward like that. How does that make you feel about the fact that you voted for him? about the fact that you voted for him? I wouldn't say angry, just disappointed. Yeah. I'm disappointed in him.

Do you accept Biden as the president at this point then? Yeah. I mean, he's my, he's going to be my president. I mean, that's, I voted for who I voted for, for my job, and it didn't go the way I hoped it did. But, I mean, you just got to accept it. I mean, that's, like I always was taught at work, you always got to accept, you always got to respect the position. You really never have to respect the person in the position. But, I mean, if they say, you know, he's president 2020, you know, he's our 46th president. I mean, I have to respect that. Thank you so much, man. And have a, yeah, all the best, man.

Thank you so much. Yes, yes. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. Tomorrow on Inauguration Day, we hear from supporters of incoming President Joe Biden about their hopes and fears heading into the new administration. We'll be right back.

Here's what else you need to know today. Over the weekend, the Justice Department charged suspected members of two militia groups, the Three Percenters and the Oath Keepers, for their role in the riot at the Capitol. The Times reports that federal agents are investigating whether extremist groups, including militias, conspired to attack the Capitol. Several of the arrested militia members are former veterans and law enforcement officials, raising the possibility that they employed specialized skills and tactics during the attack. And on Monday night, a little more than a month after the United States surpassed 300,000 deaths from the coronavirus, the country was on the verge of 400,000 deaths.

Cases are surging in almost all regions of the country, from Rhode Island to California. In Los Angeles County, hospital intensive care units are full, and a coronavirus death is now recorded every seven minutes. Today's episode was produced by Elise Spiegel, Luke Vanderplug, Stella Tan, Sydney Harper, and Daniel Guimet, with reporting by Jennifer Medina. It was edited by Lisa Chow and engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.