The Daily - When #MeToo Went on Trial

Episode Date: October 4, 2019

The investigation of Harvey Weinstein that helped give rise to the #MeToo movement had seemed, for a moment, to unite the country in redefining the rules around sex and power. But as a backlash emerged, the Supreme Court confirmation of Judge Brett M. Kavanaugh became a kind of national trial of the movement.On the one-year anniversary of Judge Kavanaugh’s confirmation, we look at new reporting on the story of the woman at the center of it — Dr. Christine Blasey Ford — and the journey that led to her searing testimony in Washington. Guests: Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey, investigative reporters for The New York Times and the authors of “She Said: Breaking the Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement.”For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Background coverage: Last month, several Democratic presidential candidates called for the impeachment of Justice Kavanaugh after The Times published new information about allegations of sexual misconduct against him.

Megan, Jodi, take us back to this moment a year ago. Where is the country? Let's actually go back a little earlier than that. Let's go back to the summer of 2018. Bill Cosby, comedian, actor, the man once dubbed America's dad. Tonight, the 80-year-old is convicted on three counts of aggravated indecent assault. Kevin Spacey is being investigated by Scotland Yard for three new cases of sexual assault. Kevin Spacey is being investigated by Scotland Yard

for three new cases of sexual assault. With that new trouble for disgraced celebrity chef Mario Battaglia. Obviously these allegations of sexual harassment, sexual assault, a lot of things are in motion here. It's been months and months since the Weinstein story broke

and Me Too has become this global phenomenon. Listen, this is somebody, this happened to Me Too has become this global phenomenon. This is somebody, this happened to Me Too. Me Too has been the phrase that has been used consistently about this case. It happened to them too. But there's also a lot of controversy and a kind of sense of mounting unfairness. A real backlash is accumulating. Actress Catherine Deneuve denounced the movement because she believes people who did not deserve to be condemned

are facing the same consequences as sex offenders. Because if you try and make a pass at someone, if you try and indicate that you're interested, put maybe a hand on a knee, you could be accused of sexual harassment, lose your job. Saying that the whole thing has gone way too far. And I wanted, I wanted more evidence. And we're seeing that tension play out in the news every single day.

Now to new developments in those bombshell allegations against the head of CBS. Ronan Farrow reports a very powerful story about Les Moonves. That includes allegations from six women, ranging from unwanted touching to what several of the sources termed sexual assault. As Leslie Moonves spoke about the company's quarterly earnings, there was no mention of the accusations against him. His lawyers apparently advised him not to discuss the issue, and to some people's surprise,

analysts didn't ask. But Moonves refuses to step down. The premiere of Louis C.K.'s new film was just canceled. Because of the accusations against Louis C.K., he's basically lost his platform as a comedian. This past weekend, after nine months out of the spotlight, the comedian took the stage at New York's Comedy Cellar. But then all of a sudden that summer, he begins to come back. In response, social media erupted. One tweet, it seems I missed the part when Louis C.K. served time. I just remember him living quietly as a millionaire for less than a year.

He shows up in comedy clubs and begins to make appearances. It might be the most controversial moment of the Me Too movement yet. Accusations against actor Aziz Ansari. So there's an accumulating series of questions about what to do with these men. And then there are cases like the one involving Aziz Ansari that it just feels like nobody knows quite what to do with. Much of the media world seems to agree the story told by the woman who calls herself Grace about her date with comedian Aziz Ansari

certainly does not rise to the level of Harvey Weinstein-type misconduct. The question of whether or how much he really did wrong is very, very much in dispute. As feminists, aren't we empowered to say no? Yes, of course we're always empowered to say no. I don't get why we expect him to be a mind reader. I don't think he was asked to be a mind reader. How wasn't he?

So there's this web of complicated, unanswered questions, and this scientific researcher in California is about to walk right into them. Last month on The Daily. Megan Toohey and Jodi Kantor told the story of their investigation into Harvey Weinstein, a story that seemed to unite the country in redefining the rules around sex and power. But one year after the Weinstein story broke, a Supreme Court confirmation process came to be seen as a kind of national trial of the Me Too movement.

Today, on the anniversary of that confirmation, new reporting from Megan and Jodi's book, she said, on the untold story of the woman at the center of that confirmation process and the journey that led to her testimony in Washington. process and the journey that led to her testimony in Washington. It's Friday, October 4th. So what do we need to know about Christine Blasey Ford?

So this series of events is set in motion in June of 2018. And we will begin our search for a new justice of the United States Supreme Court that will begin immediately. President Trump comes out with his list of potential nominees for this newly opened seat on the Supreme Court. We have a very excellent list of great talented, highly educated, highly intelligent, hopefully tremendous people. I think the list is very outstanding. And back in California, Christine Blasey Ford is sitting on a story about one of those potential nominees. So it will be somebody from that list. So we have now boiled it down to about 25 people. And Ford emails a friend, one of several people that she's told her account to over the years. And she says, quote, The favorite for SCOTUS is the jerk who assaulted me in high school. He's my age, so he'll be on the court the rest of my life.

And the friend writes back, he says, I remember you telling me about him, but I don't remember his name. Do you mind telling me so that I can read about him? And the friend writes back, he says, And she replies, So in this moment, in this sort of private moment, the clock starts ticking. The clock starts ticking. There were all of these deadlines and turning points and external forces that were going to bring very difficult decisions for Christine Blasey Ford. And the first one came on July 9th. President Trump now says he plans to announce his nominee for the U.S. Supreme Court on July 9th, one week from Monday.

I think you'll be very impressed. These are very talented people, brilliant people, and I think you're going to really love it. So in the days beforehand, Christine Blasey Ford has a real difficult dilemma because she felt that she had critical information to provide about a nominee, but she doesn't know what to do with it. She didn't know who to trust or who she could tell or really how to go to somebody in charge. She knew that President Trump was going to appoint a conservative judge, but she thought that perhaps there was one who did not have this

kind of liability. Sources tell CBS News the president is focused on four finalists. The top contenders are said to be federal judges Amy Coney Barrett of Indiana, Brett Kavanaugh of Maryland, and Raymond Keflige of Michigan. So on July 6th, she makes a phone call. The person she's calling is Representative Anna Eshoo. This is her congressional representative, a Democrat. And a young

woman picks up the phone and immediately Ford blurts out what she has to say. She says, someone on the Supreme Court shortlist sexually assaulted me in high school. I need to talk to someone in the office. It's urgent. Trump is about to make his selection. She's told that somebody will call her back soon. So then she picks up her phone again, and she contacts the Washington Post. She clicks on their tip line, and she writes, Potential Supreme Court nominee with assistance from his friend assaulted me in mid-1980s in Maryland. Have therapy records talking about it.

Feel like I shouldn't be quiet, but not willing to put family in D.C. and C.A. through a lot of stress. Now, she thinks her phone is going to ring immediately, either from the Washington Post or from her congressperson's office. But in fact, nobody gets back to her. And sure enough, on July 9th. Tonight, it is my honor and privilege to announce that I will nominate... President Trump announces his nominee... Judge Brett Kavanaugh to the United States Supreme Court.

So, Brett Kavanaugh is now the president's nominee for the Supreme Court. What happens next? Well, to begin with, the people that Ford had been trying to contact to avoid Kavanaugh becoming the nomination, they're now available to talk to her. And she has a new decision on her hands. Does she want to move forward with reporting this allegation? She doesn't want to do so in a very public way. Her hope, her belief is that she can share this information with the people who are making the decision. So she moves forward. She meets with

her congresswoman. July 18th, they meet. She spells out what had happened. And Eshoo's office says, OK, if you're going to go this kind of civic route of reporting this, then you need to stop talking to The Washington Post. In fact, stop telling other people. But by this point, word had started to trickle out through her group of friends and into the broader Palo Alto community, including to some of the Me Too activists. And so she's getting messages passed along from those people. A friend of hers actually sends a text message saying, this is a crucial time in history. Wow.

Encouraging her to come forward. This account was starting to become much bigger than her alone. And meanwhile, while all of this is playing out behind the scenes, Kavanaugh's nomination is moving forward in public. But for the president talking to the folks at the White House, they seem to be confident that their pick, Judge Kavanaugh, will sail through. Judge Brett Kavanaugh is quite simply the most qualified and the most deserving nominee to the Supreme Court of the United States. A lot of the focus is on his support for women and girls. I have tried to create bonds with my daughters like my dad created with me.

The fact that he has coached his daughter's girls basketball team. For the past seven years, I have coached my daughter's basketball teams. And the fact that he has hired a lot of female clerks. Like everything from his mother's record in teaching and then putting herself through law school, his relationship with his girls. I might be just drinking Kool-Aid. I don't know. But I sat there. I was like, this guy seems so amazing. So Ford is agonizing over what to do now that Kavanaugh has been nominated.

And she's hearing all of these glowing accounts of his record with women. And she wants her account to be considered, too. And so at the end of July, Congresswoman Eshoo's office instructs her to write a letter to the committee, to the ranking members of the committee that's going to be voting on Kavanaugh's nomination. But Ford chooses to only send that letter to the ranking Democrat, Senator Dianne Feinstein of California. It's her understanding that as a constituent of Feinstein's, she's going to be guaranteed confidentiality. And she has told us that in that moment of submitting the letter to Feinstein's office, that it dawned on her for the first time, oh my God, I need a lawyer. And she ends up working with Debbie Katz and Lisa Banks, two of the more prominent feminist attorneys in the country who are based in Washington, in this story that's

starting to unfold. So that's when I get a call from one of those lawyers, Debbie Katz. It's Saturday, August 11th. She's just met Ford a couple of days before, she's already sounding very, very worried. She doesn't tell us Ford's name, but what she says is that this client is completely credible, that she's a scientist, that she's very precise, that she tells her story very consistently, that Katz really, really believes her. But what she also said is that she doesn't quite know what she's gotten herself into. She says, my new client is naive about how big this could become. Katz doesn't really have a point of view at this point about whether she should come forward or not, but she wants me to quietly pass along the story to the paper to ask the editors to further investigate Kavanaugh's

treatment of women because she wants to know if there's a pattern here or if her client is alone. And by the way, she had asked Weinstein's office the same thing. This was what she was trying to find out. And the paper does start to look more closely at Kavanaugh's record with women. But Ford's story itself, her allegations, aren't published in the Times.

Right. And we now know that that's because at this moment in time, she has decided to go the congressional route. And in deciding to go the congressional route, she's now facing a new deadline. President Trump's pick to be the next Supreme Court justice will get his Senate confirmation hearing next month. The Senate judiciary hearings on Kavanaugh's nomination are set to begin right after Labor Day. Hearings for Brett Kavanaugh will begin on September 4th. It's a process the Trump administration has said it wants wrapped up before November's midterm elections. So she has to make a decision before then.

But remember, it's a confusing situation because she doesn't even know these new lawyers. She's in California. They're in D.C. They're having these intense phone calls. These lawyers, Debbie Katz and Lisa Banks, are trying not to impose a point of view on her. They really feel that the decision has to be hers. But on the other hand, she's sitting there in California saying, what do these lawyers want me to do? Do they have a point of view on this? And into this mix comes Ricky Seidman. And Ricky Seidman was a veteran of Supreme Court confirmation battles and a longtime Democratic operative. She had a lot of experience in Supreme Court confirmation battles. battles. In fact, she had been working on the committee that had first learned of Anita Hill's allegations against Clarence Thomas, and she had encouraged Hill to speak further to the committee,

a great personal toll to Hill. And so she enters the picture, and she brings with her all this concern that that exact same thing could happen to Ford if she came forward. And so Katz and Banks, the lawyers, are trying their best to be neutral and weigh out the potential pros and cons. But Seidman is pretty adamant. In fact, at one point, she flies to California and meets with Ford in person and spells out all the reasons she thinks she should not come forward. So Ford at that point has not made a decision, and her team feels that she really needs to because the nomination is moving forward in Washington. It's very heated. It's very partisan. But it looks like things are ultimately going to go pretty smoothly for Kavanaugh.

like things are ultimately going to go pretty smoothly for Kavanaugh. And so what they decide to do in order to facilitate a decision on Ford's part is they set an artificial deadline. They say by August 29th, which is a few days before the hearings are going to begin, we're going to choose one of three letters that we're writing. And they actually draft these three letters. And it's like each letter could lead to a different outcome, not only for Ford, but for the country. They're all variations on the choices she could make. So Ford and her team are looking at these letters, and Ford still can't make a decision, and their deadline passes. And then it's Thursday, which is the day after the deadline. And at this point, the hearings are really about to begin, and she is just unable to choose. Kat says to her, this is a life-defining decision,

and it's yours. But Ford can't make a decision, and that, in effect, becomes the decision. That night, she sends one of her sons to sleep with her husband, and she climbs into his IKEA bed, and she says to herself, look, on some level, I deserved the chance to try this. And sitting there in her child's bed, she sobs. And so on September 4th, the Kavanaugh hearings begin. And sure, there's some controversy, but for the most part, it's looking like smooth sailing. The Kavanaugh will, in fact, be easily confirmed.

But the following week, on Monday, Ford, back in California, shows up for her first day of teaching. Ward, back in California, shows up for her first day of teaching. And it's clear that word of her allegation is continuing to seep out. At the end of class, she's approached by a reporter from BuzzFeed who says, I know about the letter. She orders the reporter to leave the classroom, to leave the building. But there are reporters who are showing up at her home. They are calling her colleagues.

And on September 12th... Tonight, the mysterious new twist about Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh... There is a bombshell report involving Brett Kavanaugh. The Intercept, an online publication, actually publishes an article... It is quite a doozy. We don't know too many details about these allegations. About the fact that the Democrats are aware that Feinstein has received a letter about Kavanaugh and something that happened with a woman in high school and that they're trying to obtain it. So let me give you her exact quote on this. She says, I have received information from an individual concerning the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court. That individual strongly requested

confidentiality, declined to come forward or press the matter further. And I have honored that decision. After all of that deliberation that ended with Ford not coming forward, there are now all of these other external forces coming into play again that are basically starting to take her story out of her own hands. And in this moment, she realizes, okay, it looks like my best course of action is to actually tell my story to The Washington Post. We'll be right back.

So that afternoon, my phone rings, and it's Debbie Katz, and she's calling me in the middle of this whole thing. And she says to me, my client can't testify. And why is she saying that to you? Because at this point, it's basically taken everything Ford has had to do this Washington Post piece. She's already gone further than she had anticipated going. The idea of flying to Washington and giving testimony, that's not something she's ever really even contemplated. Deborah Katz is the attorney representing Christine Blasey Ford. Good morning. So the next morning, Debbie Katz is on a whole bunch of morning TV shows. And the hosts ask her the obvious question, which is, will your client testify?

Ms. Katz, is your client willing to testify before the Judiciary Committee? And Katz says, The answer is yes. The answer is yes. Didn't she just tell you that she wouldn't testify? Well, it's true that for Ford, the prospect of going to Washington at that point seemed unthinkable. But the lawyers and advisors essentially have two reasons. One, they feel they need to buy her time.

They tell her that they need to keep her options open and that she can always back out later. Second, things have changed at this point. can always back out later. Second, things have changed at this point, and they now feel that to kind of preserve the integrity of her story, she needs to tell it live. They've seen already privately that they think she's going to be a very powerful, very credible witness, and they want her to tell that story unfiltered and unmediated to the American public. So essentially, they're bluffing to preserve that option. So at that point, two different things are happening in public and in private. In public, Ford's lawyers issued their latest salvo, telling the Senate Judiciary Committee that she wishes to testify,

provided that we can agree on terms that are fair and which ensure her safety. The lawyers are beginning to negotiate with the Republicans for Ford to appear. And it seems like Ford is in some sense preparing to come to Washington. We're going to hear from them hopefully on Monday. I'm so glad it's a public hearing because I do think the public needs to hear from both sides. But in private, she's sending her advisors notes like this.

I'm feeling way too much pressure at the moment. And Katz says, believe me, I don't want to be another pressure. I'm just cognizant of the time constraints. We need to get an email out to Grassley and Feinstein soon. Ford writes back, I can't go there. She inserts a sad emoji to DC. And Katz says, that's okay. We can always pull out on the basis that they wouldn't come up with fair rules. This is the right next step. But the attorney really wants to make sure that she has the green light from her client to proceed with the negotiations. So she says, to clarify,

you're okay with us sending the email, which we need to do soon, but you want us to be clear that if they don't agree to fair terms, you won't go forward. And Ford writes back, I want you to know as you are writing that I can't guarantee I'll go to D.C. And she inserts an emoji with a bead of sweat. Can I see final version? And then she adds, I'm so scared I can't breathe. We've seen Republicans, congressional Republicans, really lining up behind this idea that she needs to testify on Monday. You have Senator Jeff Flake saying that she needs to testify on Monday. You have Senator Collins saying that she needs to testify on Monday.

But by Friday, September 21st, the Republicans are losing patience. They announced that they're going to go ahead and hold a vote the following Monday if a deal has not been reached for Ford to come. You've watched the fight. You've watched the tactics. But here's what I want to tell you. In the very near future, Judge Kavanaugh will be on the United States Supreme Court. And so finally over the weekend, a deal does materialize.

By Sunday, Ford has committed to coming to Washington, D.C. And then within hours, the whole landscape changes again. So after all these weeks of wondering whether other accounts are going to surface about Kavanaugh to do at almost the same time. We have a second allegation of sexual misconduct against Judge Brett Kavanaugh this morning. The first is the story of Deborah Ramirez, which is published in The New Yorker. One of his Yale classmates tells The New Yorker magazine that Kavanaugh exposed himself to her at a party about 35 years ago. It's about a drunken incident at a party at Yale many years ago. It's about Kavanaugh allegedly thrusting his penis in her face, even to the point where she had to touch it as she was pushing him away.

At the same time, Michael Avenatti, the lawyer who's become a very familiar public face because he's represented Stormy Daniels, tweets out what sound like very serious allegations against Kavanaugh. Accusing Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh of explosive instances of sexual misconduct. He says, We are aware of significant evidence of multiple house parties in the Washington, D.C. area during the early 1980s, during which Brett Kavanaugh would participate in the targeting of women with alcohol, drugs to allow a, quote, train of men to subsequently

gang rape them. Later on, it's going to become clear that these two allegations are very different. But in that moment, they sort of seemed like a pair because they came into public view at the same time. So what people had assumed would happen, that additional allegations of sexual misconduct against Kavanaugh would strengthen Ford's accusation and be evidence of a pattern, did not happen. In fact, it was by many measures the opposite. This new allegation is ridiculous. I mean, to accuse somebody of premeditated gang rape, which is what this Michael Avenatti client has done, it just doesn't add up.

Where Ford's accusation against Kavanaugh had pushed on some of those unanswered, confusing questions swirling around Me Too, these new allegations pushed on those questions even harder. And so Republicans and other critics immediately pounce. 36 years ago, nobody ever knew about it, nobody ever heard about it. And now a new charge comes up. And she said, well, it might not be him.

And there were gaps. And she said she was totally inebriated. Now they're coming out and they're lumping all of these allegations together and saying it's all part of a political hit job by the Democrats to take Kavanaugh down. Take him down. Take him down at whatever cost. It is pure and simple. Raw politics at whatever cost. So it's Thursday, September 27th.

It's the day of the testimony. This morning, we continue our hearing on the nomination of Judge Brent Kavanaugh to serve as Associate Justice on our Supreme Court. Christine Blasey Ford has, in fact, shown up. Thanks, of course, to Dr. Ford and Judge Kavanaugh for accepting our committee's invitation to testify. And there's this mood across the country that something really important is going to be decided that day. And I think that was even truer inside the room. It felt like a tribunal. It was a much smaller space than the way it looked on TV,

and the lights were so incredibly bright, like everybody was under a lot of scrutiny. And the two sides were just bumping up against each other. Tarana Burke was there, the founder of the Me Too movement. Just a few feet away stood Ashley Kavanaugh, the judge's wife, and she had this look of horror on her face. And even the way the testimony unfolded added to the impression that one side was going to win and one side was going to lose. I am here today not because I want to be. I am terrified.

I am here because I believe it is my civic duty to tell you what happened to me while Brett Kavanaugh and I were in high school. Christine Blasey Ford was very polite, but she was also very firm. She was very precise, and many people found her enormously credible. Mr. Chairman. But immediately afterwards, during Judge Kavanaugh's turn. Ranking member Feinstein, membersugh's turn, he comes out swinging. And he's vehemently denying any wrongdoing, not just Ford's allegation. Gangs, illegitimate children, fights on boats in Rhode Island, all nonsense. And he's positioning himself as a kind

of voice of male grievance about the Me Too movement. This whole two-week effort has been a calculated and orchestrated political hit. So I wake up the next morning and I talk to Debbie Katz, one of Christine Blasey Ford's lawyers. And she tells me to take a cab to the Watergate Hotel in Washington. And we meet at the hotel and she takes me into this little narrow conference room. And a minute later in walks Christine Blasey Ford. And all of a sudden I'm face to face with this woman we've all watched so closely. And what was your impression?

I mean, honestly, my strongest impression of meeting her the next morning is that this is just one person. She looked so everyday. Her hair was tousled from sleep. She was wearing flip-flops, the kind of dark suit she had worn the day before was gone. She was very focused on sort of the practical questions of, okay, how do I get home to California? Her flight was about to leave. She was trying to figure out, okay, how do I resume my normal existence? So after Ford leaves, I continue to spend the morning with Debbie Katz and her law partner, Lisa Banks. And basically they're waiting, like the rest of us,

they're waiting to see what the Senate Judiciary Committee is going to do. So we go back to their office and we're in a big conference room and the TV is on and they're waiting for some sort of news development. Well, she got the opportunity to testify and have her life turned upside down. And for what? So that he could be placed on the court just like he would have been. Even though they're at the center of this thing, they're like the rest of us. They don't know what's going to happen next.

If there's a 16-year-old girl in a few months who undergoes something similar, will she be encouraged to tell somebody because of Christine instead of keeping it to herself. She probably will be encouraged, but my question remains the same. To what effect? To what end? Is it going to change anything? So these two women have worked together

on these kinds of issues for years. But as we're sitting there in the conference room, they sort of adopt different positions. Debbie Katz plays the optimist. If we're evaluating where we are today versus where we are in this committee, there's no question that a year ago, she would not have been allowed to testify

and would not have been able to give her that support and insisting she be heard. I'm not saying the movement's a failure. I'm really not. And Lisa Banks, her partner, kind of plays the pessimist. And she says, despite the power of the movement and how everybody in this country has woken up and recognized how women have been treated forever, right? Now we're awake to it. We're energized.

We're mobilized. And yet, because we have these institutions, the results seem to be the same. Maybe the message is different. Maybe the message is different. Maybe the messaging is different and they cover their ass in a different way. My problem is the result is exactly the same. And even after the backlash after

Trump's election, and even after Harvey Weinstein and the Me Too movement. The Senate hasn't changed. The White House hasn't changed. And that's what matters. And all of those entities seek to maintain the status quo in terms of white male power and privilege. And so what are, you know, the movement, we are all energized. We are all angry. We are all... I will vote to confirm Judge Kavanaugh.

And by the next week, we have a much stronger sense of where this is headed. We need to form a protest and go to the polls and protest and vote some of these people out and vote for Republicans. The display of rage that Kavanaugh had shown during his testimony had really given many Americans permission to voice their own discomfort and anger at where the MeToo movement had gone. Today is Kavanaugh. Tomorrow, it could be your brother, your husband, your father, or your son. I don't like what I just saw here. Anybody can be accused of something. And even if

they're trying to defend themselves, you still want to make a wrong and that's not right. You know, Mike Davis, who was the head Republican staffer on the Senate Judiciary Committee, later told me in interviews that, you know, Avenatti weighing in with the allegations of gang rape had been a gift, had been a gift, that this had provided, you know, Kavanaugh's defenders and people more broadly with the claims that this whole thing had gone too far and that men were being unfairly accused and targeted and victimized. And so this is really the mood that's taken hold on October 6th, the day of the final vote on Kavanaugh's nomination, when I'm in Washington, D.C., with Lisa Banks and Debbie Katz at their office.

And then we got in the car... And drove to Capitol Hill to watch the confirmation vote. And you have this, I don't know any trial lawyer who doesn't have this. If I try a three-week case, it takes me three weeks to the day to go through every single moment of what we could have done differently. And it's clear that they're trying to find ways to make sense of this. Whatever's happening in there today has been affected by what she's done. And we need to, even if the boat goes the wrong way, which it will, right?

But the process has been affected and impacted. She did that. And she deserves to see that. As a reminder to our guests in the galleries, expressions of approval or disapproval are not permitted in the Senate galleries. So we walk into the Senate gallery. You know, there are sort of big wooden doors. You walk down these white marble stairs,

and soon we're all seated in this almost majestic Senate gallery. And Don McGahn, Trump's White House counsel, is sitting across from me watching the proceedings with a smile on his face. A good man, a good man with sterling academic credentials. And one by one, the Republicans are getting up and... But imagine what this has been like for Judge Kavanaugh's parents. Talking about... For his wife. How Kavanaugh is such a victim.

For his children. You know, Democrats are doing the exact opposite. The fact that this touched a nerve to so many Americans, and particularly to women who have gone through this experience, should put this whole debate in context. We ought to understand the gravity of this debate in light of the cultural change we are now facing in America. And then in the end, the vote is taken. And on this vote, the ayes are 50, the nays are 48. It lines up almost to a T, you know, Republicans in favor, It lines up almost to a T. You know, Republicans in favor, Democrats against.

The nomination of Brett M. Kavanaugh of Maryland to be an associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States is confirmed. Kavanaugh is confirmed. So, Jody and Megan, it's been a year since this day. We started this conversation by talking about where the country was in this moment, when Christine Blasey Ford learned that the man she said had sexually assaulted her in high school was being considered for the Supreme Court. You said that there were so many unanswered questions about the Me Too movement when she learned that. In Kavanaugh's confirmation and in the months since,

have we answered any of those questions? No. It's like we took all of these hard questions that were so heated to begin with and we just poured political gasoline on them, which is not a recipe for resolving anything. Look, I do think that there was some serious reassessment, especially on a private level, of long-ago behavior. But did we move forward on solving any of these fundamental questions about Me Too? I don't think so. It's like instead of causing progress,

the whole thing caused us to pull apart even farther. Why do you think that that is? It feels like when we look at the stories that have played out in the realms of entertainment and corporate life, it feels like on those we're capable of having a more nuanced, forward-looking discussion. In politics, these stories just become imbued with the heat and poison of American political life, and so it's just very hard to come to any kind of resolution about them. And these two individuals,

Brett Kavanaugh and Christine Blasey Ford, were turned into symbols by both sides, and yet they're still symbols. Brett Kavanaugh is now on the Supreme Court. He was always going to be this visible conservative vote on the court, but now he's going to be trailed by this cultural identity, a representation of male grievance. And Christine Blasey Ford, who went back to California with hopes of being able to return to a normal life, is far from it. It's not certain if and when that will ever happen.

I mean, she is now seen as an icon by many women. She has been flooded with tens of thousands of letters from victims of sexual assault and sexual harassment and abuse who have poured their hearts out to her. But she's also receiving death threats and is often scared to go out in public. And so she is the symbol that she never wanted to be, and so is he. Megan and Jodi, thank you again. Thank you. Thanks for having us. We'll be right back.

Here's what else you need to know today. Likewise, China should start an investigation into the Biden. Because what happened to China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine. On Thursday, President Trump called on China to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his family over work that Biden's son did there. The remarks echoed Trump's request to the president of Ukraine, already the subject of an impeachment inquiry, and could strengthen the Democrats' case against the president. President of the United States encouraging a foreign nation to interfere again to help his campaign by investigating Iran is a fundamental breach of the president's office. arrival is a fundamental breach of the president's office.

Speaking to reporters, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, one of the leaders of the impeachment inquiry, expressed outrage. It endangers our elections. It endangers our national security. It ought to be condemned by every member of this body, Democrats and McCarthy? There is no evidence that Biden's son did anything improper in China. Tomorrow on The Daily, you can hear the next episode from the 1619 series

with Nicole Hannah-Jones. We're also releasing 1619 as a standalone series with a new episode publishing later today. You can subscribe to the series by searching for 1619 wherever you listen. The Daily is made by Theo Balcom, Andy Mills, Lisa Tobin, Rachel Quester, Lindsay Garrison, Annie Brown, The Daily is made by... Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.

Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Michaela Bouchard, Stella Tan, and Julia Simon. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.