The Daily - White, Evangelical and Worried About Trump

Episode Date: November 5, 2018

Two of the key groups that helped elect Donald J. Trump in 2016 were white women and evangelicals. Now, in the midterm elections, white women are turning away from the president and his party, while evangelicals are sticking with him. We look at what happens when you’re both. Guests: Annie Brown, a producer for “The Daily,” speaks with Tess Clarke, who tells us how evangelical Christianity informs her vote, and with Elizabeth Dias, who covers faith and politics for The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, two key demographics helped elect President Trump in 2016. White women and evangelicals. Now, in the midterms, white women are turning away from the president and his party, while evangelicals are sticking with it. What happens when you're both? It's Monday, November 5th. Tess Clark grew up in a small town in Texas called Lumberton.

And where in Texas is that? Outside of Houston. And her dad worked as an operator for ExxonMobil, and her mom worked at the Baptist Church where they went. I was maybe five or six when I asked Jesus into my heart. I remember what I was wearing. I was wearing this purple dress that had an ice cream cone on it, and my hair was in pigtails, and I remember feeling so nervous. I was at our church in the little nursery or elementary school class, and it was like a little tikes table, you know, that was yellow, and I was sitting there, and it was just like this moment where I thought, okay, I have to do this. I'm ready.

A few weeks ago, my colleague Elizabeth Dias went to Texas to report on evangelicals in the midterms. While she was there, she met Tess Clark. They both spoke to the Daily's Annie Brown for this episode. And did you have favorite songs at church? Oh, so many favorite songs.

I think a song that I really loved then and maybe have some issues with now is called I'm in the Lord's Army. I don't know how familiar people are with it. I may never march in the infantry, ride in the cavalry, shoot the artillery. I may never fly over the enemy, but I'm in the Lord's army. Yes, sir. And you march around and it's, I'm in the Lord's army. Yes, sir. You know, you're part of God's military, whatever that might mean. I loved that song. I'm in the Lord's army. Yes, sir. And then you start over.

Her parents didn't make a lot of money, but they did send her to a private Christian school because it was really important for them that she get a Christian education. You're learning about math, but you're also being told about, you know, how God ordered numbers and different things about Jesus's character. Wow. So even in math class, you would talk about Jesus? Yes, depending on who your teacher was, but kind of throughout everything you're doing, those things are being reinforced.

And in Tessa's family, religion and politics were really linked. I remember in fourth grade learning the Presidents of the United States song, right, in order. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Adams. And we'd get all the way down and we would say Carter, Reagan, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Adams, and we'd get all the way down and we would say Carter, Reagan, Bush, and my fourth grade teacher would make a fart noise for Clinton's name. So, you know, this is my education here, but I mean, Clinton was bad because he was a Democrat. And when Democrats were in office, this was bad for Christians. And when Democrats were in office, this was bad for Christians. I'm sick and tired of hearing about all of the radicals and the perverts and the liberals and the leftists and the communists coming out of the closet.

It's time for God's people to come out of the closet, out of the churches and change America. America is beginning to turn around, beginning to turn to the right and up, and they're synonymous. The generation of Tess's parents, that generation of evangelicals really wed themselves to the Republican Party. I call that the moral majority. Through the founding of what's called the moral majority. Where not as many people want to destroy human life. Republicans are the ones who are going to protect the unborn children. Our little children cannot pray in their classrooms in this country. Until that is a reality, we haven't come back. They'll protect marriages only between one man and one woman.

And then, my friends, we will truly see a moral majority in America. May God bless you. a moral majority in America. May God bless you. I remember my dad talking about people on welfare, talking about immigration in some ways, kind of this idea that they were taking advantage of our tax dollars and they could pull themselves up by their bootstraps if they really tried hard enough. And did you internalize those beliefs? Were those part of your belief system as well? Yeah.

Well, when I graduated from high school, George Bush was running for president. And it was the first time I was going to get to vote. And I remember being so excited because I was going to get to do what was good. I was going to get to do what was good. I was going to get to exercise my civic responsibility and really what I felt like was my Christian responsibility to vote a Republican into office. And it felt righteous. And what kind of work did you do after college? I was a teacher in a public school. At the same time, she's also encountering things that really contradicted her narrative. Almost all of my students were immigrants to the United States, mostly from different

parts of Central America and Mexico. She got a job teaching English to immigrant children. And some of their parents were undocumented. She falls in love with this man who is an evangelical, too. undocumented. She falls in love with this man who is an evangelical too. So much about him that drew me in was the way that he loved people that I would have been afraid to love. But his Jesus was different. He was much more of a revolutionary and focused on social justice. I started to see that Jesus, when he came to earth, the people he spent time with were the people that my religion considered the sinners. And I think I never understood that. I never saw that Jesus growing up.

And so when they get married, then they moved to a refugee community in Dallas. My husband and I started a nonprofit. So suddenly she's surrounded by people that she'd spent most of her life being afraid of. But even as I'm at this point living in the refugee community, my political views, I don't feel like they wavered. There was still this core belief in me that the Republican Party was the only party a Christian would ever vote for. So I stuck to that. I mean, I remember when Obama was running, I didn't consider voting for

him because there was all this speculation around him being the Antichrist. I remember this, that fear was still gripping me. And so I was still thinking, this is the only way. If I'm going to protect myself and my future children, we need a Republican in office. Evangelicals are a house divided over Donald Trump. In recent days, that division has only widened with revelations of an 11-year-old... So when Donald Trump comes on the scene, many people thought there's no way that evangelical voters who have for decades prized character and sexual morality.

He also describes activities that have been called sexual assault. There's no way that they're going to support President Trump. But in fact... Shannon, I know a lot of people are still perplexed. Why are Christians so supportive of Donald Trump? Evangelicals still supported him in the primaries. He is the most pro-life, pro-religious liberty, pro-conservative judiciary in history. And that includes either Bush or Ronald Reagan.

And that's because of abortion. Yes, abortion is the issue for them. Because of abortion. Yes, abortion is the issue for them. I mean, I'm going, this man does not represent the values that I represent as a Christian and that I thought the Republican Party represented. But I'm going to vote Republican. Didn't consider anything else. She and her husband both decided to support Marco Rubio in the primary. And then Trump got the nomination. And then I felt like, what am I going to do now? We want another option,

but we don't really have one. And so what did you decide to do? I decided not to vote. Pastor Jeffress? Yes. Prayer? Let's pray together Pastor Jeffress? Yes. Prayer? Let's pray together, may we? Yes. Father, I thank you that we have a president, President Donald Trump,

who believes in the power of prayer. We want America to be great again. And we know that America can only be great if America is good. And we have a president who wants to make America good. Is there a moment where in the months or the year after Trump is elected, your views kind of solidify because of something that he does or something that happens? Yeah.

So my husband and I were going, I think we were going on a date. I remember because we were both dressed nice and my mom was in town watching our kids and we were kind of excited to get out of the house for the day. And we get a call from a local news station. My husband's involved in some advocacy work and they say, are you going to the airport? Have you heard about the travel ban? And we're like, what? I remember us like slamming on the brakes and exiting and looping around and going straight to DFW Airport and being some of kind of the first people to arrive. We're sitting with some of the families that are outside waiting for their family members to come in. And this is all kind of happening. It feels like in slow motion because we worked with refugees and immigrants, because we

were in that community. We know people from these places. These are people that we love and we know. So that felt like such a threat to freedom. Tess really had an awakening that night. She starts reading more. She starts getting more vocal. And then just about a year later. Persons who violate the law of our nation are subject to prosecution.

The family separation policy breaks. If you violate the law, you subject yourself to prosecution. And I would cite the Apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13 to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained the government for his purposes. To kind of defend why they were separating families at the border, He used Scripture. I remember watching that and yelling at the TV because in some ways it was earth-shattering. Like, don't do that. Be racist. Be whatever you're being, but don't use Scripture to back it up and defend it.

Like, don't, in my opinion, defame God in that way. Has it felt like you need to choose between your faith and your political beliefs? I think in 2016, maybe I would have said yes to that question because I was feeling that way, which maybe is why I didn't vote. Like, I had to make a choice. But I think the more I understand who Jesus is, my faith informs my politics. This is the reason I'm voting the way I am now, is because of my faith. Well, it's been two years since Tess really struggled with what to do in 2016, since Tess really struggled with what to do in 2016. And now she's not hesitating at all.

Casting my vote for a Democrat for the very first time, I'm excited. Elizabeth, how did you end up focusing on Tess and women like her? I cover religion and politics. And so ahead of the midterms, one of the big questions for me was what are evangelical voters going to do, especially after they supported President Trump in such great numbers in 2016? So of course, the majority of white evangelicals are Republican. I mean, they've gotten what they wanted so far from President Trump in terms of policy. Right. But at the same time, Trump's approval rating among white evangelical women has been quietly dropping.

So the question is, how many tests are there? And what really is the reach of this bubbling resistance? What impact will it have on Election Day? So why focus the question on Texas? Beto O'Rourke is happening in Texas. We have this very tight Senate race that's highly watched. It's one of the most anticipated races. Okay, and you're running against Ted Cruz.

Yes. Okay, so Ted Cruz we know is very disliked. Let me read some quotes. Al Franken said, I like Ted Cruz more than most of my other colleagues like Ted Cruz, and I hate Ted Cruz. Lindsey Graham, if you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, nobody would convict you. On one side, you have Senator Ted Cruz. Religious liberty has been a foundational passion of mine for decades.

And I have a long record of standing and defending religious liberty and winning success. Who has made evangelicals the bedrock of his support in the past. He is, of course, courting them. Whether it was defending the Ten Commandments monument on the state capitol grounds or defending the Pledge of Allegiance, the words one nation under God.

But Beto O'Rourke is courting them too, and he's doing it pretty quietly, I think. For the Republicans who are here today in Richardson, who have joined us in this room, they see someone like Beto really spending time on reaching more broadly to communities that the Democratic Party might have rejected in the past. How tight is this Senate race in Texas? It is not as tight as Beto O'Rourke and Democrats would like. Our latest CNN polling showing Ted Cruz with a comfy lead over O'Rourke. So to me, I would say, look, Cruz is the favorite.

O'Rourke still has a shot of winning, but Texas is still Texas. And Cruz is most likely going to pull out the victory. still has a shot of winning, but Texas is still Texas and Cruz is most likely going to pull out the victory. So I went to Texas because I wanted to see how evangelical women were responding to this dynamic. Hey, my name is Sarah Dama. I'm Emily Mooney. My name is Sarah Bailey. And starting with George W. Bush, I voted a straight Republican ticket. At first, I voted Republican because it's what I saw my evangelical community doing. So I go and I meet with Tess, and I also met with several other young evangelical moms like her. Because I'm a Christian, honestly, it didn't even occur to me to vote in any other way. They're all very pro-life. They oppose abortion.

I think there should be increased legal restrictions around elective abortions. But they've all had these experiences in the past couple of years, especially about immigration. That Jesus commanded me to love the immigrant, to love the voiceless, and just to champion them. And so the Jesus that I see in the New Testament is deeply concerned about the dignity of all people. So this doesn't mean that I care about the unborn any less because I also care about other issues. We don't lead single-issue lives. It wasn't that they're no longer pro-life when it comes to abortion.

It's that they have these other competing ideas about what that identity, that pro-life identity means, especially when it comes to immigration and race. And how do you reconcile the issue of abortion with your newfound beliefs? I know that no candidate or no senator is going to be perfect. I know that no one is going to necessarily line up with everything I believe. I feel like being pro-life is being pro-all life. From the Syrian person who's fleeing bombs in their country, to the Honduran immigrant, to the child separated at the border, to the kid in foster care, to the baby in the mother's womb. If I am pro-life, I'm looking at all of that life.

You're listening to Janet Neffert Live on American Family Radio. All right, I can't wait to get into this. The New York Times put out a story yesterday. Beto O'Rourke may benefit from an unlikely support group, White Evangelical Women. This is the New York Times. It's based in Dallas. We published the story and almost immediately I was shocked by the volume of response that this piece started to get. I mean, this is a quote from a woman named Tess Clark.

I care as much about babies at the border as I do about babies in the womb. We've been asleep. Now we've woke up. What's the worst reaction you've gotten? That I'm not a Christian, that I'm a baby killer. There's no way any woman with a real relationship with Jesus could ever vote for a Democrat. Maybe I should vote for Beto. Well, why would you vote for Beto? You know, this whole thing about he hits a stark moral contrast to Trump.

Give me a break. And on the other hand, you have other women coming up to Tess and her friends at church whispering in their ears saying, wow, I'm going to vote for Beto too. And I haven't told my husband and I feel like I'm going against my pastor. And how did you prepare your family for the fact that you would be featured in this article? You know, I texted my mom and dad and said, hey, just wanted you guys to know I'm going to be in an article in the New York Times, which my dad replies, fake news. And then I texted back and I was like, oh, come on, dad, it won't be fake news because it's going to be, you know, my story along with other women. And he just wrote back, go Trump, go Kavanaugh. And that was it. That was kind of the text back. And my dad to

this day has not read the article. I reached out to him a couple of days ago. I was like, do you remember the article I did for the New York Times? Well, I remember you said something about it. I was like, did you read it? No, I didn't read it. And he said, well, too bad, you're on the wrong side here. So you kind of joke with each other about it. Yeah, I kind of make it light a little bit, but there's definitely that disconnect there between us where we can't go deeper than that. What does it mean to you that he hasn't read the article? I don't know. You know, it's in those moments where you're kind of thinking,

I don't know. You know, it's in those moments where you're kind of thinking, no matter how old you get, you want to feel connected to your parents. You want your parents to be proud of you. You know, I'm 35 and my husband's 40. And we were having this conversation the other day. You never stop wanting the approval of your mom and your dad. It's interesting to me that when you think about the history of evangelicals as part of this so-called moral majority, the Tesses out there are not saying that they want to leave the Republican Party because they don't believe that abortion is a moral issue anymore. They have moral objections to the rest of the Republican platform. Yes, yes, exactly. And for many of their parents, for whom that moral majority generation defined their adulthood, that seems to be really threatening for them,

that their children and the future of the evangelical movement is questioning everything that they had established on these very moral grounds. After the break, Tess talks to her dad. We'll be right back. Hello? Hello.

Hello. Hi, Dad. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Hey. You what? Hey, what are you doing? Well, I was going to watch The Voice, but... I'm taking my call.

Yep. I haven't caught up on The Voice yet. I know. I got a couple good ones on there, but I'm starting to lose interest a little bit. Yeah. So, Dad, you know, I was in a New York Times article. I know I warned you before it came out that you might see it around or your friends might say something. So, I didn't know if you had gotten a chance to read the article.

Well, I did read it and I support your decision in whatever you do. I'm not against you in any kind of way. I mean, you have freedom of speech just like everybody else in this country. So was there anything in there you kind of felt like spoke to you? Or, I mean, I know I only had a couple of lines in the article, but, you know, I hadn't got to talk to you really that much about my trip to the border. I talked a little bit about that in the article, and I was just wondering if you had any questions kind of about that trip or what I saw. that trip or what I saw? Well, yeah, I mean, I would like to know what you personally saw because, you know, I haven't personally witnessed anything. I mean, what we know is what we see, hear, and read. So, I mean, what is your personal experience? Yeah, so when I went to the border, one of the

places we went was to Ursuline where they were actually doing the physical family separations. And then we went to ICE, and we got to meet some of the people who were there. And one of the women that I met, she was telling me how a year ago she had been deported during a raid in her community, and her daughters had witnessed her being deported. She lived in the United States since she was 14. And after she was deported a few months later, her older daughter who was about nine at the time, I believe, tried to commit suicide. So Juana said, I knew that I was risking everything by trying to cross back into the United

States, but I had to get to my daughter for her to know that even if I got caught, I tried to get to her. And I think as a mother, you know, like, that resonated with me so much, thinking about if that was me, I would do that too. Well, I mean, you know, that's certainly an isolated case. I mean, of course, who wouldn't be sympathetic and compassionate to what you've personally experienced? But, I mean, not every case is like that. I mean, I don't feel like everybody that's crossing that border is doing it for what they're claiming. They're the ones putting themselves in this position and coming over here.

They're not all being persecuted. I mean, what would you like to see them do? You're talking about these fences and cages. I mean, this is all temporary stuff. I'm not sure what the answer is, but got to contain them to some degree. But it feels like the human piece is missing for me with the current administration and the current policies. And that's what I'm upset about. I think we have to restructure. I mean, do you honestly think that this country can just continuously let people, especially, I mean, it's not nowhere near Trump's fault.

I'm saying that people are being treated like criminals that are coming to claim asylum when that's not a criminal offense. Because it's a lie test. They're not being persecuted. We know, and you know. How do we know that they're not? How do we know? Oh, my gosh.

You really think 5,000 people, how many it is now? They were being interviewed on TV. You know, why are you coming? Why? We want a better life. I mean, it didn't say, hey, you know, I was being punished. And, you know, you're picking isolated cases. I don't know.

It just feels like, is there not a more human approach we can take? I'm trying to lean in and think about this from more of like a Christian worldview and going, okay, Jesus called us to welcome the foreigner and the stranger and treat them as if they were among your family. And then it even says you could be entertaining angels when you're doing this. And Jesus could have come to earth as anything that he wanted to, right? As any powerful person, as a king, as a prince. We all know that. But he came as a baby in a poor home that ended up having to leave their country to seek refuge somewhere else. And so as a Christian, how do we justify turning people away and not helping them?

How do we reconcile that with our faith? them? How do we reconcile that with our faith? Because God gives us wisdom, and we are supposed to obey the laws of the land. Not if the laws are not just. Jesus was killed because he wasn't obeying the law. Well, if the laws aren't just, then they need to be changed. I don't disagree with that, but we are not world saviors. This can't continue to happen. This won't be a country anymore. You know, Trump's not such the bad guy. I wish that wasn't true.

I wish that I could believe that our president wasn't a bad guy, but do you feel like our country's ever been this divided? Of course not, but it's not just because of Trump. It's because of these liberals. When he got elected, you didn't see these people just going nuts on the ground. I mean, it was crazy. I mean, he hadn't even done anything yet. I mean, it was a really dark day for me, too. Our friends who are Muslim that we love and you know felt like someone who hated them just became the president of the United States of America. Well, I would hate to think that he hated them. Well, Don, he demonized Muslims. We're going to agree on this, maybe. Do you not feel like he

painted Muslim people in a very negative light? Look, I think Muslim people painted their own self in that light. No, they're being, like a whole group of people are being associated with a few crazy radical people. This is the same thing of us going, please don't associate us with white supremacists who are shooting people in a synagogue. We don't want to be associated with that crazy person. Muslims don't want to be associated with the terrorist bomber. But they've gotten associated with it, so much so that people are scared to walk past them in a grocery store.

Well, I mean, not that it's right, but it's for a good reason because all the terrorist act that was against this country was that type of people. I don't know who's committed all these school shootings that are acts of terror. White people. I just don't see how anybody could support the Democrats. I mean, I'm even confirmed even more through this Judge Kavanaugh ordeal that there's no way I would support the Democrats. Everybody witnessed what happened. I didn't see any Christianity in what they were doing to that man, condemning him like they did. I mean, it couldn't have been more unchristian, in my opinion, than what they done.

To me, that's the most fascinating thing about everything happening right now, is that how different we saw that entire thing playing out. Like, I was feeling similarly about what was happening to Dr. Ford. It just felt like the way that she was demonized wasn't necessary either. You saw Trump made fun of her even after all of this. I mean, that's just not necessary. I don't disagree with some of that stuff. I don't support Trump in every aspect. I don't like that either, but I do believe that God put him in that place. then he liberated his people from him. So I think this is going to be a stain on American history that we'll never be able to erase. How you choose to look at it, you're not really seeing the good that he's doing, and it's not getting any credit. I just think at the root of our faith, it feels like you have the Christianity of empire, and you have the Christianity of the vulnerable.

And it feels like that's where everyone is so split, is that some, like, people who are both professing faith, who are both reading the same Bible, who both say, I'm a follower of Jesus, are coming out on the other side of this in completely different camps, with completely different thoughts. And both people are saying, both sides are saying, I'm listening and I'm hearing from God. And I feel like that's not God. I feel like somebody's missing Him along the way. And maybe no one's going to say it's them, right? But to me, it seems like we're following two different gods. I mean, I know that everybody's an individual. I mean, we're all God's children.

But, I mean, we would be foolish to think that everyone is going to be saved. Some people are going to have to suffer. I mean, there's going to be saved. Some people are going to have to suffer. I mean, there's going to be a lot of suffering coming on before the end of times. I mean, the end times are coming when Jesus is going to rule and reign on this earth again. I mean, it's not going to get any better the closer it gets to the end. I mean, it tells you in the Bible that the closer you get to the Lord, the more you're going to be persecuted. Well, maybe that migrant caravan, they're really close to the Lord. They're knocking and praying all the way here. I feel like they probably have a lot to teach us

about faith. They're followers of Jesus, too. How are they not? You know what I mean? Like, God doesn't love any of us any different. Well, that for me is why I've changed the way that I'm voting in the midterms. You really think that you're voting in that direction for Democrats that are in leadership wanting to lead this country in such a wrong direction? I mean, to me— So you're telling me you're voting for Cruz. Oh, yeah. You're not going to change my mind about Cruz. O'Rourke is just not on my... And I hate that because, I mean, he may be a better candidate,

but there is no way I can support that Democratic Party. Yeah. We're leaning in different places. We share the same faith and we still both want good things for the country and for people and there are a lot of people who aren't even willing to sit down

for the conversation. So I'm just glad that you did that with me and that I got to hear more about kind of how you're feeling and what you're thinking. I mean, I do feel very proud of you. I'm very proud of you. I'll throw you parenting.

Don't always agree on how to handle them children, but I'm still proud of you. Thank you, Dad. Thanks for talking with me today. It means a lot. Well, anytime. All right. Love you. I love you. Bye. Bye-bye. Here's what else you need to know today. I want to bring your attention to something that you might not know about because I think it just came out. The Georgia Secretary of State's office, that's your opponent, Brian Kemp, they've just announced they've opened an investigation into the Democratic Party of Georgia for possible alleged cyber crimes. On Sunday, just two days before the election, Georgia's Secretary of State Brian Kemp, who is also the Republican nominee for governor, said he was investigating the state's Democratic Party for allegedly trying to hack into the voter registration system. Have you heard anything about this? Do you have any reaction?

I've heard nothing about it and my reaction would be that... Kemp, who faces Democrat Stacey Abrams tomorrow in a tight race, and who has been accused of repeatedly trying to suppress Democratic votes in his role as Secretary of State, offered no evidence to back up the allegation. On Sunday, Abrams was asked about the claim by CNN's Jake Tapper. He is desperate to turn the conversation away from his failures, from his refusal to honor his commitments, and from the fact that he is part of a nationwide system of voter suppression that will not work in this election.

That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.