The Daily - Who Is Believed and Who Is Blamed?

Episode Date: October 10, 2018

Across the country, the confirmation of Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh has set off a highly personal debate among women about credibility and culpability. We sit in on two of those conversations. Guests: A group of teenagers in Brooklyn, who shared with us their reactions to the accusations against Justice Kavanaugh; and the reporters Susan Chira and Ellen Ann Fentress, who spoke to Lovetta Green and Crystal Walls, two friends in Mississippi with very different political views. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, across the country, the confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh has set off a highly personal debate among women about who is believed and who is blamed. We sit in on two of those conversations. It's Wednesday, October 10th.

Is somebody else in here? Am I too close to you? No? No, you can be in the circle. We're both here. There's like three more. Hi! Hi! Earlier this week, I sat down with a group of teenage girls in Brooklyn to discuss their reaction to Kavanaugh's confirmation.

So I just wanted to start by asking you all what your understanding is of what happened over the past few weeks. What your sense of it is. We could start anywhere. what your sense of it is. We could start anywhere. It's my understanding that this man is being allegedly accused of doing something awful to a girl in high school at a party, I believe. I was at a party because I heard like 20 million different things. Like my dad said one thing, and then my friends be like, oh, I heard in the news this happened. And then Twitter said this. So it's like, it's all messed up. Once I heard that the news this happened and then Twitter said this. So it's like it's all messed up. Once I heard that he was at school and he went into the bathroom with her or it was like at a party and he shoved her into like the bathroom in the party. So it's the second one.

Well, he shoved her into, I think it was a bedroom, right? It wasn't on the bed. He took her upstairs from a high school party. So they didn't go to school together at the time. They were in high school. And I think he was like a high school party. So they didn't go to school together at the time they were in high school. And I think he was like a grade above her. What else did you guys hear about it, if at all? Marcia and Alicia and I, we actually were shown the hearings at school.

And it was more of a discussion. But you guys also go to a private school. Right. And a lot of my other friends that go to different schools were not given any sort of outlet to talk about it. I hadn't really talked to any adults about the whole Kavanaugh situation until yesterday when my dad had said something about how... He had made an angry comment about it and then I said something about how it's not fair on, like, the victim, that people are going to treat her bad or whatever. And then he was talking about how, like, he was mad because people were trying to ruin his life. And it made me, like, really angry because I was like, he's got that job for life now.

Like, that's his job now. The allegations did nothing to prevent that. So, like, it just made me really angry hearing like that. And what did you think in particular of her testimony and the way she described the events? She seemed so upset. And you're not going to sit here and ruin your own life for something that's not true because people were coming to her house for this, weren't they? Like you are not going to sit here and lie about something that's going to affect you forever just to keep somebody out of office that's that's true i agree with that yeah especially when it's

someone of that like with that much power because when you like accuse somebody of that much power of something like this like people automatically are going to attack you and invalidate you and make you feel like you're just being stupid. And yeah. I want to bring this back to you and your lives. At the center of the Kavanaugh allegation is a high school party. High school students drinking beer on a summer afternoon inside a house. And I wonder how familiar that scene is to you all. It depends on like who you're partying with. Like, yeah, I don't know. I'm Hispanic. So like my parents, like they don't really like know you like that. They ain't gonna let you out. So I used to go to parties that were like really Hispanic, but like I knew them, like I knew who

they were. But I have been to parties where like one time I went to some college party where I was like, oh, my God, I don't even want to be here. Like, Leslie, boys just come up to you like they have no behavior. Like they really like these boys just they just be like grabbing you, like literally grabbing you. And I'm like, oh, my God. Like like and I experienced this myself. Like some boy was like, come here. And I was like, I was like. Like, and I experienced this myself. Like some boy was like, come here.

And I was like, I was like, who do you think you are? And I was like, I was like, you really got to get away from me. Like, this is not okay. And I was like, oh my God. Like people really go through this. And people sometimes are like, they're like stuck. Like my friend was like, yo, one time I had this experience where some girl was like, the kid came up to her and she was like in awe awe like she couldn't move she was like scared to move

like that's just me but i think that's so crazy because it's like that you're saying that this is so common this sort of thing happens all the time and it's so normalized just like let's say cat calling that's so normal yeah it's so normal. I've literally been cat. I think the youngest I've been catcalled was probably when I was like 10, 12, 13. And it's just so common. And not one of us who is catcalled makes quote unquote a big deal about it because we know that it will continue to happen no matter how much we speak up about it. we know that it will continue to happen no matter how much we speak up about it. How many of you have either experienced something along the lines of what Christine Bozzi Ford testified to, or have a friend who told you something happened

that made them very uncomfortable? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. one two three four five six seven eight i i've had friends who who have been sexually assaulted or have been raped and they still like even if they don't remember the whole scenario there's always like one significant thing that they remember that even to this day like it makes their skin call like it affects them mentally so much like what she said that the one thing that like always affected her was the laugh was them laughing at her you know I have friends that have had something like this happen to them or worse and they have only gone to me and a select group of people about it

because of the fear that nobody's going to believe them, that their parents are going to be angry at them for whatever reason. Did any of you find that you wanted to talk about any of these encounters and you found that people around you weren't believing them or they had questions that made you wonder if they believed you or you just felt unheard? I've always wanted to talk about it and I have like I've gone to my mother and talked about what has happened to me but when I told her she said you shouldn't have been like out that late or you should have came straight home. And so I kind of stopped telling people who I wanted to tell, like my other family and close friends of mine,

because I felt as if my feelings and what has happened to me was invalidated in that. Are you comfortable saying anything more about what happened to you? You don't have to. I was walking home from an evening out with my friends. It was around like maybe 9, 30, 10. And I was walking and a man who I didn't know, he was a really old man. And he approached me. And at first I thought it was like super funny, all fun and games because he approached me. He said, oh, you look like a sexy britain i'm like i don't know what that means like ha ha ha but then he like pulled me into like it wasn't like his house but like the driveway next to his house and he pulled me there and i started to get scared i tried to fight back but i was not as strong as him and he was a very like um he was very built and he then like started to like

try to kiss on my neck and he tried to like touch my boobs and i got so uncomfortable but i was capable of getting out of that situation because of a stranger that was walking past and i started screaming for help but till the to this, I kind of, I'm still impacted by it because when people even go near me, I'm still like, I don't want you there. I get, I'm very uncomfortable. And you just, you chose to tell your parents and people around you about it. about it and and I told my mother as soon as I got home because after the incident I kind of like ran home because I I had guessed it was adrenaline I usually don't run but there was adrenaline and I was running and as soon as I got home my mom started like why are you home so late and I'm like this is what happened to me and she said you shouldn't have been out too late and after that I kind of just stopped talking about it.

So I want to shift focus here to a pretty sensitive question, especially given what we just heard. One of the conversations surrounding these accusations against Brett Kavanaugh is that this was high school. So how much weight should it carry given that context? And I'm curious what you think as high schoolers, should what you do now, should what anyone in high school does now now follow you around for the rest of your life? Yeah. Because I feel like, like, obviously high school is like a rite of passage and you've got to make mistakes and learn your way through it. But there are certain things that it's just like, like saying hateful things to certain minority groups and things like sexual misconduct,

that kind of stuff follows the victims forever. And if it follows the victims forever, well, then you got to deal with it too, since it's your fault. You know what I mean? When you're 16, 17, 18, you're in high school, you have a moral compass that will tell you what is right and what is wrong. So if you're already in the state of mind where you know what's right and what's wrong, that means you are consciously making a decision to do something wrong or you are consciously making a decision to do something right, which is the same thing you're going to be doing the rest of your life.

I wonder what you think the message was when Brett Kavanaugh was confirmed. Many of you have talked about experiences that have happened to you or to people you know that were assault and given the fact that he was accused of that and he was put onto the nation's highest court what's the message to you for all we know it could have never happened but the fact the sole fact that he was accused shows that anybody can get away with anything as long as they have enough power. On top of that, people that are watching him might think, oh, if he got away with it, I can too. Because if he did it, maybe I'm not going to get caught. Maybe even if they bring me to a trial, I'm going to be good

because look who is now our Supreme Court justice. He got away with it. So why not me too? Anybody else? It kind of just feels like a big old, I don't really care about your situation type of thing from like the higher ups and the government and stuff. It felt like we don't care if you like it or not. You have to take it.

And like, it feels like they don't care about our opinion, our safety, and the fact that we're even here, even though we make up a big percentage of people. And it feels like they're kind of just like, well, sucks. Well, I really want to thank you all. This has been really remarkable and candid and enlightening, and I appreciate it. We all do. Thank you.

Thank you. We'll be right back. Hello, Mississippi. Hello. Beautiful. Last week, when the president broke from his previously measured comments about Dr. Blasey Ford, it was at a rally in South Haven, Mississippi, where he was trying to energize his base ahead of the midterms. I had one beer. Right? I had one beer. Well, do you think it was? Nope,

it was one beer. Oh, good. How did you get home? I don't remember. How'd you get there? I don't remember. Where is the place? I don't remember. How many years ago was it? I don't know. My colleagues, Susan Chira and Ellen Ann Fentress, visited the town a few days later to see how women in more rural areas of the country were responding to the president's comments and to the accusations against Judge Kavanaugh. Is it New York Post? New York Times?

I would have turned out to be a really qualified lady. You're a really talented lady. Crystal Walls and Levita Green work alongside each other at Dale's Restaurant in South Haven. And he opened this in 55, I think I saw. 66. Oh, yeah.

Because I started in 72. Okay. Carol, one year before I was born. Crystal is a Republican, and LaVita is a Democrat. I love me some Vita. I love me some Vita. I love me some Crystal. But how many years have y'all known each other?

I've been here 23 years. So 23 years? Yeah, 23. Do you think y'all's relationship has changed over the years? Are y'all more forthcoming now? We're more forthcoming. We're more forthcoming. You know, of y'all's conversation every day, what percent of it do you think is like the back

and forth about politics? About 10 or 15 percent. Because she'll come in. It depends on what's going on at the time. Yes. I have been talking to lots and lots of people because the president came to the rally and some people went to the rally and thought it was great and then some people said, oh well, but he was making fun of that woman there,

and that wasn't so great. So there was a lot of disagreement, and there's all this stuff going on right now with the Kavanaugh confirmation. Yeah, he just passed the vote. So we just wanted to get, like, your sense of it. Now, you were working. You weren't at the rally? Yeah.

Or did you go? You went to the rally. Oh, you went? Okay. Yeah, but I picked my grandson up from school because he really wanted to go. How old was your grandson? He is 16. Uh-huh.

And what did you think when you saw the present? I thought it was pretty awesome. My grandson, when we left, he said, Grandma, that was really cool. I mean, you don't get to see a present every day. Yeah. It was pretty good. I thought he was funny, actually. Tell me about it.

What was funny? Some of his comments. I thought he was funny, actually. Tell me about it. What was funny? Some of his comments. I don't remember exactly. You know, he shouldn't have said that about her just because he's a president. But I didn't hear one boo. They sure did cheer him on big time. And what he said, I have to agree, is very true. Tell me more.

Bet, Phillips. Not right. Okay. Like I said, I wasn't there, but on the news I saw where he mocked her. Yeah. When he was down there at the center. He mocked her. And just because you're the president of the United States,

you ought to have more oomph about what comes out of your doggone mouth. Just because you're the president of the United States, you ought to have more oof about what comes out of your doggone mouth. You just, just because you're the president of the United States. Yeah, just like I totally agreed with what he said the other night. I just, because he was the president, he should have done it more quiet. But it was funny. And that just doesn't sit well with me. That means, as the president, you shouldn't have mocked her, period. Even though Kavanaugh is, you know, going up for judge against that judge.

Even though what he said was true. Shut up, Kristen. Don't do that. See, this is how it gets done. Well, it was. But no, I did say he should not say it. He shouldn't. Just because he's president. I just, you know, she don't seem to remember too dang much.

I sit there and I watched her interview. I watched it like a hawk. And I had an open mind about it and I had an open mind about it I had an open mind she is a very intelligent woman she's read a lot of articles she's read a book she's got all kinds of stuff out there

but as far as common sense I don't think she has that much I don't know 15 years old 17 years old, really? That's just ridiculous. To me, it's just ridiculous. I thought she was probably trying to use psychology

on America, but it wasn't working. Since she's a professor of psychology. But PTSD, come on, get real. For real, maybe she needs to talk to some servicemen that really have PTSD. And it's not because I don't understand rape. I understand rape big time. She actually wasn't raped. She was just assaulted. I mean, seriously, my daughter, she was assaulted, raped, found in a motel, beaten. I mean, I understand it big time. You go to counseling for a year, two, whatever you need to do, but PTSD, nah,

I can't see that. That's just too much. My daughter's gone on just fine with life. You forgive, you forget. You don't carry that with you your whole stupid life. I mean, and I can think of many times men did things to me, grown men when I was little that should have never happened. I always took off running. And shouldn't she take a little responsibility for her own actions? What was she doing in a house drinking with just guys in the first place? I thought her whole testimony was just ridiculous.

Okay. Ridiculous. And so what did you, did you believe Dr. Ford? What did you think? It shouldn't take you 30 years to tell you somebody touched you in front of you. Now it's coming out how many people

been touched. It started with Bill Cosby. Like we said, after Bill Cosby happened to Bill Cosby, everybody just crystal-cold to work.

Do you believe how many more of them came out? Do you believe in Abby Larson? It's crazy. That's my thing with it. Why it take so long?

Why is it take so long? Why is it taking so long to come out and mess with these men about this? That goes for Kavanaugh. That goes for Bill Cosby. That goes for everybody. Goes for the preachers that are messing with the little boys now. It goes for everybody. It's just this.

I think this Me Too thing has just gone too far. I mean, any woman can say anything. And a lot of times, you know, as far as I think they bring it on themselves to destroy somebody that maybe they don't care for. I think it's gone too far. Actually, I think that should be something that's kept personal. When you need help, you need to get help. Sure, there's a lot of bad guys in this world who do a lot of bad things they shouldn't be doing.

I can think of so many instances in my own life. I mean, oh, maybe I ain't a wimp. Oh, no. So maybe I can't comprehend that. Some women are scared, and I don't know why. I am a conservative. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Mainly because, maybe because I'm older, and I think a lot of things in this country are just getting too liberal. Like on what? Just totally. Whether it be like what's going on now or whatever, you know. Here's what else you need to know today. It was a blessing to go into the U.N. with body armor every day and defend America. And I'll always do that. I'll never truly step aside from fighting for our country.

But I will tell you that I think it's time. On Tuesday, President Trump's ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, said she would resign at the end of the year, after just two years in the job, in the latest high-level departure from the administration. But I'm most excited. Look at the two years. Look at what has happened in two years with the United States on foreign policy. Now the United States is respected. Countries may not like what we do, but they respect what we do.

Haley, who repeatedly criticized Trump as a presidential candidate, and who clashed with his White House over foreign policy, nevertheless emerged as a fierce defender of his agenda at the UN. You've been fantastic, you're my friend. And I just, on behalf of the country, I want to thank you for a great job. Thank you, Nikki. Thank you. Thank you. And President Trump expressed suspicion of a landmark report

released on Monday by international climate scientists, which predicted faster and more severe consequences of global warming than previously thought. Asked about the report on the White House lawn on Tuesday, the president said, quote, it was given to me and I want to look at who drew it. You know, which group drew it. I can give you reports that are fabulous. And I can give you reports that aren't so good. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.