The Daily - ‘Who Replaces Me?’: An Update

Episode Date: December 30, 2020

This week, The Daily is revisiting some of our favorite episodes of the year and checking in on what has happened in the time since they first ran.Scott Watson — a Black police officer in his hometown, Flint, Mich. — has worked to become a pillar of the community. And he always believed his identity put him in a unique position to discharge his duties.After watching the video of the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis police custody in May, his job became a source of self-consciousness instead of pride.Today, we call up Scott once again and ask how he’s been doing and how things have been in his police department.Guest: Scott Watson, a police officer in Flint, Mich.For an exclusive look at how the biggest stories on our show come together, subscribe to our newsletter. You can read the latest edition here.Background reading:Lynsea Garrison wrote about interviewing Scott in an edition of The Daily newsletter.Many Black and Hispanic officers in New York City have found themselves caught between competing loyalties in the wake of the killing of George Floyd.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily

Hey, it's Michael. This week, The Daily is revisiting our favorite episodes of the year, listening back and hearing what's happened in the time since they first ran. Today, a police officer looks back at his career. It's Wednesday, December 30th. have you ever have you ever looked at like the state police graduating classes okay do me a favor go back and look at their classes they're graduating classes see how many black people you see We need our police departments to mirror the communities that we're serving And we need those officers to come from within those communities That'll make the change When people start seeing we really and truly care for our hearts

People will see police in a different way. From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. So, of course, it is disturbing the number of African Americans that are killed by police. And this is raising a conversation and a number of questions about what are the issues that need to be tackled within police departments? And one of the things that comes up has to do with hiring practices and diversity.

There's a growing consensus that to change American policing, police departments must look more like the communities they serve. I think to many looking in from the outside, it's hard to understand how the police force could be majority white and the community majority African American. Why can there, how can there be such a disconnect or a discrepancy between the two? Today.

We're hiring. We're hiring. We're hiring. Get off that protest line and put an application in. And we'll put you in your neighborhood, and we will help you resolve some of the problems you're protesting about. The Daily's Lindsey Garrison spoke with one officer in Flint, Michigan, about his experience serving the community he grew up in. It's Monday, August 31st. Okay, so press that button.

And then try talking. Do you see little waves? So I called up Scott Watson. Okay, I'm talking into the actual phone now. He was on duty the night we talked, so he left his police scanner on just in case he got a call. I'm ready as I'm ever going to be. So my name is Scott Watson. I'm from, born and raised in Flint, Michigan.

53-year-old black male. And I've been a city of Flint police officer for the past 23 years. And Scott's story begins in 1966. So my mom had me when she was 16. So you can imagine, you know, having a child at 16 back then wasn't, you know, it wasn't easy coming from a single parent household. Honestly, I mean, we struggled. Scott and his mom, they move into the lower level of her brother's house.

It's in this neighborhood called St. John's, which is just on the edge of the Buick car plant. It was still segregated for the most part. And Scott's mom had a job at Sears. You know, I was a loner child and my mom never had to like get me up for school and get me dressed. From tot lot on, you know, I could get myself up and get myself together. I didn't require much. You know, I could get myself up and get myself together. I didn't require much.

You know, my mom was very nice. You know, she did the best she could, but she was in love. She was in love with basically a bad boy. You know, high school, he was one of the stuff football players, but he liked the streets. And you know, so he ended up going to prison. And he says as a child he didn't think much about his dad. My first real memory of him was

going to Jackson Prison and visiting him. It was just we went somewhere to visit a man that I really didn't know who going to Jackson Prison and visiting him. It was just, we went somewhere to visit a man that I really didn't know who, you know, come to find out was my dad. But he, at some point within the next couple years, you know, he got out of prison, and that's where really my experiences, learning, I guess, learning more about me began. When his dad comes home from prison, it totally changes Scott's life.

changes Scott's life. You know, he sold drugs, and I would... I didn't have a bedroom, so I slept on the couch in the living room. You know, it was nothing for me to see. It was strange people in the house all the time, people knocking on the door, the wee hours of the morning to buy drugs. You know, I walked in the bathroom,

I would see people shooting up heroin. That's when my dad was addicted to heroin. I could open up a bathroom drawer, I would see pieces of rubber that they used to tie it off, needles, you know, needles with blood on them. At a very young age, I knew the difference between boy was heroin and girl was cocaine. And, you know, we kept it in the basement, in the washing machine and in the dryer.

I mean, you know, there were guns in every corner of the house. I had opportunity to see it all. Things that, you know, kids should know. But I was never one of those kids who would touch any of that stuff. And Scott's dad, he barely acknowledges Scott. He kind of treats Scott like he's not even there. I mean, it's kind of bad to say, but you know, he would take me to the drug houses and he would leave me there and he would leave with his friends or they would talk about drug activity right in front of me. And his friends would kind of look like, you know, should we be doing this? And he would just tell them, I mean, you don't have to worry. He ain't gonna say nothing. And he was

right. I would never, you know, I would never say anything about his business. You know, you have to remember back in those days, kids stayed in a kid's place. So, you know, that was all adult stuff. But I took it all in. The only time his dad really does pay attention to Scott is when he brings him into the business. So back then, you know, a lot of people were on assistance. You had first of the month people would get their checks. And him and his friends, they would go in people's mailbox and take their checks, male or female. And, you know, I can remember my dad dressing up like a lady and taking me with him to the bank to cash the check.

And it looked good, you know, having a little kid with you. But it's like, it's like, wow. It's like, wow. And it seemed like I'm talking more about my dad because most of the negativity kind of, the negativity and the positivity actually kind of comes from him because I wanted to be everything that he wasn't. That drive, Scott says,

it motivates him in his quiet way. He keeps on with school and his homework. He makes himself something to eat, sometimes just ketchup sandwiches for lunch or dinner. And every free moment he has, he pours himself into his escape, basketball. Ride the glide, Austin, and now we're going to see little Jimmy Blacklock.

It was the escape for me. I mean, day and night, if there was something basketball-related on TV, I watched it. The Harlem Globetrotters used to have a variety show back then, so I started learning how to do little tricks and drills and stuff and just got good at it. You know, little tricks and drills and stuff, and just got good at it. He takes his basketball literally everywhere with him. He even sleeps with it. Like some kids have teddy bears and stuff.

I didn't have any of that. I had a basketball. Basketball was my best friend. It was my girlfriend. It was my girlfriend. It was my woman. It's like nothing else, you know, really nothing else mattered to me other than to be the best. So it took me away from all the negative things that, you know, were happening around me. And while Scott is outside spending these hours on the street and, you know, just in his everyday life going to school, he sees police officers everywhere. They're doing community policing in his neighborhood then.

They're doing foot patrol while he's growing up. Actually, a friend of mine, his sister, she was on the police department. He knows several of his friends whose family are police officers. So they were pretty much positive role models when I was coming up. Even the times when police officers were called into his house for various domestic disputes between his father and his mother, even then he didn't have a negative perception of the police. He didn't really fault the police in those moments. I mean, they weren't nasty or abusive, speaking of the police.

At the time, they just tried to get the problem solved. So I didn't think anything bad about them. Like I say, it was more a reflection on my mom and dad. So those were mostly good experiences. But then Scott turns 13. Then this would be a negative experience. A friend of mine, his name was Billy. He was like 15. He was not a bad kid. He was just kind of mischievous, you know, Kind of mischievous, you know, just kind of a mischievous kid. But him and some more guys broke into a house and the police showed up. And Billy took off running out the back door and went to jump a fence.

And a white police officer shot him in the back of the head with his shotgun, killed him. the back of the head with his shotgun, killed him. And that touched off some real tensions. You know, people were starting to riot and, you know, so that was kind of my first bout with kind of like some perceived racism, you know, white police officer, black kid, you know, you shot a young black boy in the head who was running away from a property crime, you know, and you killed him. And now I'm angry, but at the same time, you know, it's like, man, Billy was wrong. You know, he broke in somebody's house or whatever. So, you know, he definitely didn't deserve that. But, you know, he was wrong. He broke in somebody's house or whatever. So he definitely didn't deserve that. But he was wrong. Over the next couple of years, Scott kind of starts to drift off. His grandmother dies,

which hits him really hard. And he stops playing basketball. He starts skipping school. Even if he attends class, he doesn't really engage. He just sits there quietly. And his GPA ends up falling to a 0.6. And then two things happen. So a guy that I was hanging out with, we were skipping school one day, and he had a car. And we were going down the highway highway and we were doing over 100 miles an hour and a semi truck was in the lane next to us and got over in front of us.

And this humongous semi moved suddenly right in front of their car And Scott's friend in the driver's seat has to just quickly slam on the brakes. The car skids. And we almost, I mean, we were right, right up this bumper, about to hit it right in the back. And I just seen my life flash before my eyes. And I'm like, whew. I mean, it scared me to death. So that happened. So after that, about a week later, the friend that I was with, he was killed. And he was killed by some of my other friends. They got into it over a gold chain or something. And, you know, they did a drive-by and they killed him.

You know, so he's dead. And some of my friends, they ended up going to prison. And then Scott, he just has this realization like, if I don't make some changes here, the same kind of

future is waiting for me. And it's like, after that happened, it's like, alright, this is it's like, all right, this is God's way of telling me you got to get your life together because there's nothing good is going to come out of that. And so he does. I just start going to school every day and start doing my work. He starts playing basketball again and going to school. And eventually he gets spotted by this basketball coach at a junior college in Flint who's looking for undiscovered players. He took me in like I was his son,

and I brought a couple other guys along that was kind of... And while he's playing there, he's noticed again by Northern Colorado University, and they offer him a scholarship. Northern Colorado University, and they offer him a scholarship. I got a full-ride scholarship. So Scott moves from Flint, Michigan to Greeley, Colorado, and he has to pick a major. I knew it from the other side first by all the criminal activity and stuff I'd seen as a little kid. And, I mean, I knew, you know, I knew about the drug game and time you could get for committing certain crimes and, you know, unknowingly being a part of crime sometime, you know, as a little kid. It just, criminal justice was, it just came easy for me. It was natural for me.

And when he graduates, his career choice seems like a natural one, too. In my mind, everything my dad was, I wanted to be the total opposite. So once I was honest with myself and evaluated who I am and my, you know, knowing what I'm capable of. It was easy. It was easy. And so he returns home to Flint and enrolls in the police academy there. You know, it just kind of went from there. We'll be right back. So Scott moves back home to Flint and he enrolls in the Flint Police Academy.

And he says that when he enrolls at this time in the mid-90s. There's this huge push for police officers of color. The current police chief at the time is Black, and he's really trying to increase the number of Black police officers in that department. And Scott really wants to be a part of that. Now, my mom was just like, a police officer? You don't look like a police officer. So I'm explaining to her, I just like, a police officer? You don't look like a police officer. So I'm explaining to her, I'm like, so what does a police officer look like? And she really didn't have a, she just knew it didn't look like me. So, you know, I'm like, wow, okay.

But I know me. And who better to protect my community than me? So my first day on the road, we hit the ground running. I think my first night on the road. We ran like 50 radio calls. So Scott says they're responding to these calls, him and these two supervisors he's with. And it's like every call they respond to, Scott knows everyone. And these white officers are like, Man, every car we go on, you know. I think I impressed my training officers because every car that we went on,

the people knew me. You know, and I'm just like, hey, you know, I grew up here, I played sports here. So yeah, I know a lot of people. And for Scott, it was like this call to duty is being validated on his very first day of the job. I don't think there's anybody better to do that job than myself. But then in his first year... I was out of training, I was working by myself, And an officer got in a chase trying to stop a vehicle.

Scott is called in to help pursue a Black suspect who fled during a traffic stop. So the suspect got out of his vehicle and he took off running through the yards. Now, this is wintertime. When I say winter, I mean it is freezing outside, freezing cold. And it had been snowing a lot. So, you know, here in Michigan, we don't shovel our backyards or whatever. So the snow is high. So anyway, this guy, he jumps out his vehicle and he takes off running. And he runs through these people's yard.

And he tries to jump a wooden fence. And the fence breaks. He doesn't have a coat on or anything, and he lands, you know, he lands in all this heavy snow. And Scott gets out of his car, and he's walking up to this scene. And all these white officers all showed up, All these white officers all showed up, and they all kicked snow on him, kicked snow on his face, on his head. And it made my heart drop. So I just, I walked, I stepped right in between all of them, picked him up, brushed the snow off of him, handcuffed him, put him in the backseat of my car, and I cut the heat on, and I transport him to the station. And it's funny because he wasn't, the suspect wasn't mad.

You just kind of got the feeling from him that, you know, this is just business. Like this is how it's supposed to be. And I never experienced that until then. And I'm like, this is not how it's supposed to be. I think I was more hurt than he was. I mean, he was glad that I was there to, you know, pick him up. And, you know, he was so appreciative of, you know, I hate to say it like this, but that seeing that black face that it's like, you know, OK, I'm safe. You know, I'm safe. You know, I'm safe. You know, he took care of me.

He not going to let anything, you know, else happen to me. But Scott can't really get over what he saw. At that moment, that made me question what's really going on here. It made me like, is this something I really want to be a part of? He keeps thinking about that. In that moment, it made me rethink it, but actually, that had to make my resolve greater because it showed me it's like we need more like me and less like that. In the big picture, I need to stay. Scott continues to work in patrol for a number of years, and then he moves on to this special squad

where he's investigating drugs and gangs on the streets of Flint. And as he gets further and further into his career on the force, he kind of grows to believe that he can be a force for good in all of these smaller ways. They have block clubs and stuff on the north end of Flint. I would go to the block club meetings.

I wasn't getting paid. I wasn't on a police dime. Take kids to the prom for free. So they'll have a nice prom experience. You know, I'll see somebody who hungry. You know, I go in my pocket and, you know, give them money so they can get something to eat. People, they can always reach me by my cell phone or, you know, go get the food for them because I don't buy cigarettes or alcohol for them.

You know, they have my number. They can pick up the phone and call me and I can take care of the problems. I'm always trying to help people out with their issues. me and I can take care of the problems. I'm always trying to help people out with their issues. In 2006, after Scott is in the department for nearly a decade, something happens in Flint. The Black pastors complained that there wasn't enough minorities in the upper administrative positions in the police department. It didn't reflect our community. So the Black pastors wanted, it was a white mayor, they wanted him to do something about it. And, you know, it's an interesting time in the police

department because it's almost equal parts white officers and equal parts Black officers. Scott said that basically the Black officers that were recruited by the Black police chief in the 90s, back when Scott joined, a lot of those officers were still around. But what the pastors were complaining about was that hardly any of those Black officers were in positions of command. The captains, the lieutenants, the sergeants, all the way up to the chief, those positions were overwhelmingly white. So the black pastors wanted, it was a white mayor, they wanted him to do something about it. So he came up with the idea of having a group of officers outside of the regular ranks, be above everybody in the regular ranks. And they were called a citizen service bureau. And then he promotes four Black officers into that group. But there was no rhyme

or reason how he chose these people. There was no testing. There was no, there was no nothing. Just, this is just who he wanted. So. Almost immediately, the police unions respond. So almost immediately, the police unions respond. The white officers in the department got together with the union and filed a lawsuit. And it was a reverse discrimination lawsuit. More than 40 officers file a reverse discrimination lawsuit complaining that the mayor had no basis for those promotions. He didn't follow any procedure and he overlooked qualified white officers in those promotions. Well, the black officer is like, well, hold up here.

You know, this is unfair to us. If there is no testing procedure, you know, it affects us also. And it's like, wow. So long story short, all the white officers, the lowest amount of money they got was like $25,000. The white officers actually win the case. The city loses millions of dollars, and Scott is feeling totally blindsided. It felt like, honestly, us against them at that point. You know, when you see all the white officers band together and basically we were, you know, the black officers were kept out. And it's like, we're not one. I mean, so yeah, there's

you guys over here and us over here. And that's pretty much how Scott comes to think about the department as two departments. So, you know, for us Blacks, like, wow, you know, y'all walk around here preaching, you know, thin blue line and we're all brothers. But I think people, they had a thin blue line kind of wrong. Within that thin blue line is a racial divide also. And that's the part that I don't think people see. We smile in each other's faces, but you know in the back of your mind

when the chips are down, there's a division. And, you know, you can tell when they're in their circles, when it's just them, it's a lot different than when they're around us. This all comes into greater focus for Scott with the killing of George Floyd. So initially, someone was telling me about it, but I hadn't seen the video. So maybe a day or two after it happened, I seen the video, and it hurt me to my core, to my core.

Suddenly, his identity as a Black officer, rather than feeling like a source of pride, it turns into a source of self-consciousness. Right after this, after I seen the video, I came to work. Oh my gosh. I was embarrassed to put a uniform on. I was embarrassed to get out of my cruiser. I stopped at one of the guys who barbecue on the street,

you know, and I stopped to get something to eat. And I just felt, I really felt like I didn't belong. The embarrassment that I felt and people looking at me like, there go one of them right there. That's what I felt. And I just want to stay out the way. I don't want to make no traffic stops. I don't want to... That night, after the stuff happened,

it's about 2 o'clock in the morning, and I'm in a semi-marred car, and I'm riding down the main street, but it's pretty much empty. And this car fly, they fly by me. And so I pull them over. I got lights and sirens me. And so I pull them over. I got license sirens and stuff, so I pull them over. And I walk up to the car, and I'm just as polite.

And it was a male and a female, and the male was driving, black couple. And I'm like, you know, license, registration, proof of insurance, whatever. And I asked him if he knew why I stopped him. Oh, I mean, he was so disrespectful to me. And just talking about how we don't do nothing but kill people. And I mean, he was cussing at me. And I still, you know, I just kept my composure. I'm like, OK, he mad. They're mad. I get it. I understand. What they don't understand is I'm like, OK, he mad. They're mad. I get it. I understand. What they don't understand is I'm mad also.

So, you know, I ran his name and everything, you know, had a good driver's license. Didn't write him a ticket or anything. And I just walked back up to his car and I gave him his stuff back. And I told him, you know, y'all have a good night. And it's like, after I said that, he couldn't respond. It's almost like he couldn't believe, like, man, he didn't cuss me out or anything. But I was hurt, but I kind of had to just hide it. Honestly, it's just been feeling like everybody is against you. I mean, you know, your own people are, you know, calling Uncle Tom sellout. And then, you know, you got your white counterparts who, you know. Again, Scott is having this feeling that there are these conversations going on in the office that he's not really a part of.

He says in the conversations that he's hearing, everyone is flatly condemning what happened to George Floyd. But then he goes on Facebook. You know, there's been some things, social media posts by officers, white officers, that were less than, it made officers feel some type of way, made specifically our black officers.

I don't even know if it's... I don't even know how to really approach the subject, but we had some officers, some young white officers, who made some statements on social media. This is what Scott said he saw. He reads one post from a white colleague

that said George Floyd was a piece of shit and a criminal. He was a criminal. And then he reads another comment from a white supervisor who writes that there must have been a big fight before that happened. It really rubbed me the wrong way, but I was... Another white colleague reposted a picture that said, only in America can an ethnic group have Black Awareness Month, a Black holiday, Black-only colleges, Black-only dating sites, Black-only bars and clubs, and turn around and call everyone else racists. But these are colleagues that you probably see every day.

Yes. So it's difficult when you know people feel like that in their heart. It's tough. So even now, you know, I still speak to them and I still treat them the same because I was their supervisor. But did it make me feel some type of way? Yes. And did it make other black officers feel some type of way? Absolutely. Can you truly protect and serve the people where you work, if that's how you truly feel. Do you think, Scott, you've been able to make a difference in policing?

Do you think, Scott, you've been able to make a difference in policing? It probably depends on which day you talk to me. Because some days, you know, I try to help people every day. And I help a lot of people. And I help a lot of people. You know, I get calls from jails and prisons all the time and attorneys and prosecutors and victims. And, you know, so, you know, I look at individual things, you know, where I've been able to help people in one way or another, and I take those as wins. But when I look at the overall career and

where we were at when I came on the department and where we're at now, it doesn't feel like a win. What's that feel like? Crap. It makes you feel like crap. I don't want to say it's been wasted,

but if we as black officers haven't changed the minds and hearts of our white officers, you know, it just don't feel, it just don't feel like a win. So, where do we go from here? Where do I go from here? I go from here, I'm trying to get my mojo back, but I keep seeing the same stuff. I haven't seen real change yet, but I'm going to retire and I'm going to go off into the sunset I hate to retire in a sense because who replaces me will it be someone not from our community

so the real answer is I don't know. I guess I'm still wondering, and I don't mean to belabor this point, but you hear so much about recruiting more Black officers as one of the solutions for reform. And I feel like this kind of call for diversity happens each time. I mean, when Michael Brown was shot, a big criticism was that the Ferguson Police Department didn't go home at night to Ferguson. They went to their suburbs far away from Ferguson. They didn't actually live in the community they policed. And after the Dallas shootings, the five officers in

Dallas were shot. I remember that Dallas police chief said, like, if you want to change, like, we're hiring. Get off the protest line and come into the police department. Yeah, yeah. And that's true. And is that true, though? Is that the thing that will change? Or would you get a flood of Black police officers who are, I don't know, divided from the white officers? And you have these two departments instead of this one department. And that would limit the change that those Black officers could bring.

And that would limit the change that those black officers could bring. I mean, that is very, that's a very tough question. I don't know. I don't have a definitive answer for that. But I will say this. I just went to the park not too long ago, and I had a basketball, a brand new basketball that was sitting around my house that I bought for my son. And I went to this one park, and I'm like, you know what? I'm going to just go out there and just get me some shots up and just kick it with the people that I know, you know. And when I'm done, I'm going to let them keep this basketball

so when they have good games going on or whatever, you know, they'll have a really good basketball to use, you know, be the park basketball. But it's little things like that. the park basketball. But it's little things like that. But that's just me. You know, that's just me. In a statement to the Times, the city of Flint acknowledged that the police department had received complaints about Facebook posts made by police officers and said that each of the complaints was investigated and quote, appropriately handled.

They also noted that the department has recently launched a special recruitment effort to hire more officers who are from Flint. The city has also hired a new chief of police, Terrence Green, who was himself born and raised in Flint. Green has said that addressing the morale of officers is among his first priorities coming into office. We'll be right back. A few months after this episode aired,

I called Scott back to check in on how he's been doing and how things have been within his police department. Good morning. Hi, Scott. It's Lindsay. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I am good. Awesome. I guess we wanted to talk a little bit about what's happened since that piece first published.

And I know the last time I talked with you, you were feeling, you know, pretty disheartened about what you said was this divide in your precinct. And I'm just wondering what happened since that piece was published? what happened since that piece was published? So I got a lot of positive feedback and a lot of the people that reached out to me, a lot of them have encouraged their children to listen to the podcast and I've had kids write me letters. So it's been overwhelmingly positive. But by the same token, like within our police department, you know, there's also a downside. It's kind of hard for me to just really put my finger on it. just really put my finger on it. All I can tell you is this, the whispers of some of the white officers are, yeah, he did a podcast and he went all racial. I was just like, I went all racial. It's like I went all racial.

So I've heard things like my statements actually caused a divide within the department. And I'm like, those divides, they've already been there. But as a police community, it's like we don't want to air our dirty laundry. So there has been some, you know, kind of backlash, so to speak. And what about Black officers in your department? Any reaction from them? Overwhelming. I mean, from the Black community in general, who've heard the things that went on,

they just, they couldn't believe it. And a lot of the black officers said this to me that podcast was wonderful it's like you told the absolute truth you were brave enough to speak on how we all feel that you had the courage to speak out and say it. We all feel like that. When they listen to the podcast, it was like I was talking about them and their journey. Wow. So it's kind of crazy. You know, you're saying something that they felt their entire life.

You know, you're saying something that they felt their entire life. And kind of like they've always been afraid to just say it out loud. One of the notes we left on is you were thinking a lot about your retirement. I think you have two more years left. Do I remember that right? Yes, ma'am. Two more years. And you were feeling a little deflated about the next generation of police officers and your exact words where you were worried about who was going to

replace you. And I'm just wondering, are you still concerned about that? So since the podcast, we've hired some good young people that have come along. And so I'm hopeful they're doing a very good job and they want to make a difference. They want to make a difference in their community. So they just have to be molded. So I'll have a hand in being able to, you know, train, you know, impart the knowledge and stuff that I've gained, you know, through my experiences. I guess a final question is, are you just counting down the days to your retirement or are you seeing the next two years with a sense of this renewed mission to make sure maybe younger people in the department

understand, connect with these communities and police more effectively and with more trust. So there was a point where I was like, I'm counting down, but now I'm not, down but now i'm not i'm not counting i'm like okay really my mission is to teach our guys the ones that you know i work intimately with to be you know better versions of myself and represent what the community needs and what the community wants so um so I'm not in a rush because I want to be thorough. And when I leave, I want to know that, you know, I left my department in some good young hands that'll be around for a long time because I'm not only teaching them, I'm teaching them to teach others. And, you know, hopefully it carries on and it sticks with them. So you're hopeful? Yeah, I am.

I mean, I have to be. I'm an eternal optimist. At the end of the day, I mean, you know, I looked at every situation as an opportunity to learn something. So, yeah, I'm hopeful. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you speaking with me and sharing your story. All right. Well, you have a Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas to you. And good luck with your day, Scott. Thank you. All right. Bye-bye. Today's episode was produced by Lindsay Garrison with help from Sydney Harper. It was edited by Lisa Tobin and Mike Benoit, and engineered by Chris Wood and Marion Lozano. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow. you