The Daily - Why Hong Kong Is Still Protesting

Episode Date: June 17, 2019

In Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands remain in the streets, even after city officials said they would suspend the contentious extradition bill that prompted the demonstrations in the first place. We look at why the protesters still don’t trust their government. Guest: Austin Ramzy, who covers Hong Kong for The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Background reading: If the shelving of the extradition bill and an apology from Hong Kong’s leader were aimed at mollifying the protesters, the measures seem to have had the opposite effect.The bill’s suspension is China’s biggest concession to public pressure in President Xi Jinping’s nearly seven years as leader of the country.Here are photographs of the protests, which are some of the largest in the history of Hong Kong.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. In Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands of protesters remain in the streets. Even after city officials said they would suspend the controversial law that prompted the protests in the first place. Why they still don't trust their government. It's Monday, June 17th.

Austin, where does all of this begin? The story begins a year ago in February of 2018. Austin Ramsey covers Hong Kong for The Times. A young couple from Hong Kong, they went from Hong Kong to Taiwan for a trip over Valentine's Day. And after this trip, he returns and she doesn't. Her family is incredibly worried and they contact Hong Kong police. Hong Kong police contact Taiwan police. The police in Taiwan begin looking into it. They find the hotel where the couple stayed. They find footage of him coming out with a large suitcase. And the Hong Kong police interview him again, and he admits to killing her. And the Taiwan police find her body near a train station, hidden in some weeds.

There's not a lot of homicide in Hong Kong or Taiwan, and so it's of interest in the local press. But it's not a huge incident beyond sort of the local crime pages. But it emerges quickly that there's a problem in prosecuting him. The murder itself, under Hong Kong law, can't be prosecuted here because it took place in Taiwan. So the family of the deceased woman, they send letters to the Hong Kong government. They plead with the chief executive, the top

official here in Hong Kong, to do something to work this out. And what do they want? They want him to face justice. They want him to face trial for the murder of their daughter. It can't happen in Hong Kong. It has to happen in Taiwan. But under the existing system, there's no way for him to be sent there. Hong Kong does not have an extradition agreement with Taiwan. So basically, Hong Kong has to rewrite its law. And how does the government in Hong Kong respond to this request from the parents? By proposing changes to its extradition law, a very broad series of changes that deal with not just Taiwan, but every single place that it does not currently have an extradition agreement with, including mainland China. And why is that significant? Hong Kong

is part of China, but it is at the same time separate. part of China, but it is at the same time separate. Hong Kong is a former British colony that returned to Chinese control in 1997 under an agreement called One Country, Two Systems. Welcome to the handover ceremony for Hong Kong, held jointly by the government of the United Kingdom and the government of the People's Republic of China. So it is part of the People's Republic of China, but still operates its own semi-autonomous system. It has its own local government, has its own local courts, control of its own economy.

I should like on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen to express our thanks and good wishes to all the people of Hong Kong who have been such staunch and special friends over so many generations. And this law appears to threaten that in some way. That's right. People in Hong Kong are very worried that this agreement would allow mainland Chinese prosecutors to reach into Hong Kong and go after criminal suspects in a way that they could never do before. And Austin, how warranted is this fear in Hong Kong? It's quite warranted.

In the past few years, particularly under the leadership of Xi Jinping, who's expanded his control over China's authoritarian government, there are cases, there are specific incidents where the mainland authorities have reached across the border and grabbed people. In 2015, there was a case

that's known as the Causeway Bay booksellers. Sandwiched between a pharmacy and a nail salon and up a cramped stairwell is Causeway Bay Books, which was closed today. This bookshop and the publisher that ran it did this great business of selling these gossipy tales of the Chinese leadership, things that would not be allowed in mainland China, but also things that people from mainland China were quite interested in. And so they would come to Hong Kong and buy these books filled with gossip about Chinese leaders. This book talks about Madam Peng Liyuan's private life. She's China's first lady. This title predicts the downfall of China's president, Xi Jinping. And the mainland authorities decided that they did not like this.

And so they went after this book company. And there were five people who were detained. Some of them were detained in mainland China. One of them was kidnapped in Thailand and brought back to China. And another one disappeared off the streets of Hong Kong and ended up in Chinese custody. Why is the case of this missing bookseller so important? Well, I think it concerns the basic security and safety of Hong Kong people. In 2017, a mainland Chinese billionaire who was living in Hong Kong was taken from a hotel

and is taken across the border and is still in custody in China and hasn't been seen since. So is still in custody in China and hasn't been seen since. So people see this as a Trojan horse and a means by which the mainland authorities can further increase control and reach out and grab people here in ways that they never could before. So basically the fear is that anybody doing anything in Hong Kong that might offend China or cross somebody in the Communist Party there could now be vulnerable to extradition to mainland China to face charges. Or not charges, but just disappear. Right. People here have fears that anything they do here could somehow lead them to get in trouble and have to face justice from mainland authorities. So what happens? So the government proposes this legislation in February,

and immediately concerns are raised about mainland China. And so resistance begins to build towards this legislation. People begin writing petitions. There are some small protests. Despite all this opposition, the Hong Kong government pushes forward and it says that it will continue pursuing this legislation for the family of the woman who was killed in Taiwan. But Taiwan comes out and says that it is no longer interested in pursuing extradition because the way Hong Kong has written the law, Taiwan feels that its sovereignty will be undermined. Hmm. So the stated reason for this law has kind of collapsed. They're not going to get justice for this woman's family.

That's right. That's right. And that really adds to suspicions in Hong Kong. People are saying, well, if the man accused of killing this woman is not going to be extradited, why is the government pushing forward on this? And it really sort of exacerbates the fears of everyone. And so resistance to this legislation builds and you see more and more protests. There's a protest by a few thousand lawyers who come out and march silently.

And on the afternoon of June 9th, people begin gathering in a park on Hong Kong Island and plan to march to the government headquarters. You can hear the roar of the protesters all around Causeway Bay, this major district, commercial district here in Hong Kong. They are firmly opposed to this bill. It's quite stunning to see how many people really show up. I caught the protest at about the midpoint as the leaders were walking through. And then followed the protest to the government offices, interviewed people and spoke with people there.

Mainland China used all sorts of ways to exercise the so-called dictatorship in Hong Kong to kidnap the people they treat as enemies. And then sort of loop back to the point where I caught the protest leaders coming through. And there's just a sea of people still pouring through. And I went by that same point another three hours later, and there was still a sea of people still pouring through. And I went by that same point another three hours later, and there was still a sea of people pouring through. In the end, the protest organizers estimate that there was more than one million people who joined the protest,

which would be almost one in every seven people in Hong Kong. That's kind of staggering. It is, it is. And it's, you know, it's summer in Hong Kong, so it's not a pleasant time to be standing on a street for hours on end. The temperatures here this day are over 30 degrees Celsius, and yet, that's hot. That has not stopped the elderly, the senior citizens, the families with young children and infants who feel so opposed to this legislation.

People want to be there. They're also very conscious of being with the march for the entire length to make sure that they're counted, to make sure that they're seen. In years past, the police would count the number of people who left the park to join protest marches. would count the number of people who left the park to join protest marches. And so people were really conscious of showing that they were with the protests for the entire distance. And what happens next? And so this protest ends. There are still hundreds of thousands of people on the street, but the protest ends Sunday evening.

And the government releases a statement and says protest is one of the freedoms that are protected in Hong Kong. But we're not backing down. We saw your protests, but we're not changing and we're going to continue to push through this legislation. It's late on a Sunday evening. The statement came out at something like 11 p.m. Many people have gone home. There is still a contingent of young protesters who are very upset about the government statement, and they try and push through to the legislature. and push through to the legislature. They begin pushing barriers,

directly confronting police around the legislature. Riot police charge at protesters. And there are clashes that continue through the night. I was out until well after 2 a.m. watching as police pushed protesters, and then protesters pushed back. And it was clear that there was quite a lot of anger over the government's response and that people were not going to back down. And the attitude of the government is embodied

in a woman named Carrie Lam, who's the chief executive, the top official in Hong Kong. This bill is not initiated by the central people's government. She has pushed for this law all along. We were doing it and we are still doing it out of our clear conscience and our commitment to Hong Kong. And this week she described herself as like the mother of Hong Kong. I have two children. like the mother of Hong Kong.

And like a mother, she can't give in to all the whims of her children. And so she must say no to the demands of the protesters to stop this bill. And that leads to greater anger towards the government, and the street protests continue. There are clashes between protesters and police, use pepper spray, and they use batons

and begin trying to drive out protesters from around the legislature, from around the government offices. And you can see very organized and savvy young protesters who come up with a variety of means of resisting. The pepper spray. They deploy umbrellas. And when police launch tear gas canisters, there are scenes of young protesters pouring water on the canister to keep the tear gas from coming out. And so, on Saturday, Carrie Lam, the chief executive, finally says, After repeated internal deliberations over the last two days,

I now announce that the government has decided to suspend the legislative amendment exercise. Restart our communication with all sectors of society. Do more explanation work and listen to different views of society. A Chi will suspend this legislation. But the Hong Kong people remain deeply suspicious of their government. Democracy now! Democracy in Hong Kong! Democracy in Hong Kong! Democracy in Hong Kong! people remain deeply suspicious of their government. We'll be right back. Austin, I guess I'm pretty confused about one key thing here.

Why would the Hong Kong government do anything that threatens its own citizens? If the people of the city are calling this law a Trojan horse, why would the Trojan horse come from within Hong Kong rather than from China? The Hong Kong government is a very unique creature. And Carrie Lam, the chief executive, she often says that she has two masters, people of Hong Kong and China's central government. And she's not directly elected by the people of Hong Kong. She's essentially selected by the government in Beijing. And she answers to them. They're her boss. And so many people in Hong Kong feel in cases like this, the government is not representing them.

It's representing the interests of mainland China. So one view of this would be that the Hong Kong government knowingly passed a law that would allow its citizens to be more easily extradited to China. And it used this murder and Taiwan as an excuse to do so. That's right. That's a fear among many protesters here. The government said on Saturday that it would suspend the extradition law, but people turned out again on Sunday and organizers said Sunday evening that there were nearly 2 million people who turned out to the protest. So almost double the number that came out to protest one week ago. And I spoke with several of them today. So if you could tell us about

when you first learned about the bill and what... One, Amos Ip, an 18-year-old about to graduate from high school next week, said to me that what they want is not just the legislation suspended, but they want it permanently withdrawn. It's not enough. We need to stop this because she would continue to force the passing of this bill very soon if she doesn't stop this. That's why you came out today? Yep. Ultimately, they don't trust the government and they feel that it could reintroduce this law, ask the legislature to vote on it at any point during the next year. And so they only feel safe if the law is completely off the table. Political wave that we are facing is not only about this bill. It's the Hong Kong people

rising up against the government because the government has been not listening to us for a very, very long period of time. And this, after the Umbrella Movement, this is... And Austin, where does that leave us in your mind? What do these protests and the fact that they seem to be having some influence on the Hong Kong government, and by extension, it would seem, on China, what does that tell us about the status of Hong Kong have been able to slow or temporarily block this legislation. But in the era of Xi Jinping, we know and greater control over all of China, that Hong Kong and Hong Kong's government is aiding an effort to slowly erode Hong Kong's uniqueness so that the difference between the city and the rest of China will be non-existent. the city and the rest of China will be non-existent. And so people in Hong Kong know that they may have slowed this bit of legislation, but they will have to continue turning up in huge numbers for years to come if they want to protect Hong Kong's unique identity.

Right, if they have any hope of actually protecting that unique identity. That's right. There is this fear that in the current climate with Xi Jinping in Beijing, that the people of Hong Kong are fighting a losing battle. But they're not ready to surrender just yet. but they're not ready to surrender just yet. Austin, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you, Michael.

On Sunday afternoon, Hong Kong's chief executive, Carrie Lam, apologized for letting down the city's residents, but said nothing about withdrawing the extradition law. A statement issued by her office said that Lamb, quote, promises that she will take on criticisms in the most sincere and humble way, striving to improve and serve the general public. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Two questions. How certain are you that Iran was responsible for these attacks? And do you have more evidence that you can share with us?

Well, Chris, it's unmistakable what happened here. On Sunday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said there is more evidence that proves the Trump administration's claim that Iran was responsible for last week's attacks on oil tankers in the Gulf of Oman. These were attacks by the Islamic Republic of Iran on commercial shipping, on the freedom of navigation, with a clear intent to deny transit through the strait. The accusations and the possibility that they could trigger military retaliation from the U.S.

have prompted demands for specific evidence from the Trump administration. So far, the White House has cited a single video apparently showing Iranians in a patrol boat removing an unexploded mine from one of the tankers. There's no doubt the intelligence community has lots of data, lots of evidence. The world will come to see much of it. But during an interview with Fox News Sunday, Pompeo declined to specify the additional evidence. But the American people should rest assured we have high confidence with respect to who conducted these attacks,

as well as a half a dozen other attacks throughout the world over the past 40 days. And a widespread power outage left all of mainland Argentina and Uruguay without electricity, a blackout that officials there described as unprecedented. The blackout shut down trains, subways, and ports, affecting nearly 50 million people. So far, the cause of the outage is unknown. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.