The Dan Bongino Show - Interview with FBI Whistleblower Kyle Seraphin, Part. 2 (Ep 1858)

Episode Date: September 23, 2022

In this episode, I continue my talk with FBI Whistleblower Kyle Seraphin, who describes in disturbing detail the corruption inside the bureau. Copyright Bongino Inc All Rights Reserved Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get ready to hear the truth about America on a show that's not immune to the facts with your host, Dan Bongino. Folks, welcome to part two of this exclusive interview with FBI whistleblower Kyle Serafin. Part one was certainly an eye-opener. Part two is not going to let you down either. Today's show brought to you by ExpressVPN. Protect your online privacy with a VPN today. Don't wait. Go to expressvpn.com slash Bongino. I really appreciate your patience. We have sponsors who want to be here and talk to you. We're going to read two, and then we're going to get back to the interview. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for your time. These are good companies. Getrefunds.com. If you own a business that's been a bumpy ride from pandemic to inflation, I'm sure you could use a break. If your business has five or more employees and managed to survive COVID,

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And they're made in America where they won't be made at all. Remember to order their free catalog and decals at henryusa.com. That's henryusa.com and click on the free catalog button in the top right corner. You're going to love this company. Now back to part two of my interview with FBI whistleblower Kyle Serafin. Part two of my interview with FBI agent Kyle Serafin, whistleblower, American patriot. Really appreciate you being here. Part one of this was eye-opening for me. I did not know a lot of that. We did a little bit of a pre-interview call, but that was fascinating. We had ended off on January 6th. You said January 6th was kind of this seismic earthquake movement in the FBI where things

changed. They bought into the hype that this was a Pearl Harbor, like 9-11 moment. Correct. What changed? Who was running that investigation? And who could be scooped up in this? So the way that it went down, it's so bizarre to so many people. I have friends that retired over this.

You know, they just said, I'm done. I was going to do more time, but I won't. They took supervisors who had done national security work and they moved them over and they moved them into a specific building. It's an offsite near the main field office. And they opened up, I think it was three squads is what my recollection, I could be off. But that's three supervisors, you know, half dozen agents or more on each one of them. They started sending TDYs, you know, temporary duties. And they're backfilling these. So bringing people in from around the country. From every part of the

country. Every field office was on the hook to give X number of bodies to show up to do this work. Okay. And then the second thing is they pulled all of our operational surveillance details off and they sent us into the office and we had to go through these leads. So in the FBI, a lead comes in through this electronic means. It's a couple of ways it could come in. It could come in from another agent. He's doing some work or she's doing some work. And they say, Hey, we go interview this person in your area. It's relevant to my case. This is what I want known, you know, go size them up, whatever it is. Hey, would you go serve this subpoena at a bank and go get these financial records? It has to be done in person. Whatever the thing is, right? There's a lot of different

leads that they'll send you on. The other way it can come in is through our national call center, which got staffed up big time after Parkland. And it just takes in calls. And my numbers are going to be sort of hyperbolic, but let's say 99% of those are just crazies calling in and telling you about the implant that the CIA put in their nose. And I used to get those in the ER and I know you saw them when you were a patrol cop. It's just what happens. So I'm in, this is a secret service. Yeah. Just love it. Everybody wanted to kill the president. That's right. Everybody wants to go and get involved in the, you know, they're going to stake out law enforcement and we're watching your, your, you know,

so we'd have a booklet of these threats that come in all the time. January 6th was a totally different animal. There was a queue of tens of thousands of leads that had to be processed and they all had to be looked at because any one of those things could be the thing that breaks the case, whatever this case is, you know? And so, thing that breaks the case, whatever this case is, you know? And so, so they're shipping bodies in from all over the country. You have TDY or a temporary duty assignment, just like the military. And they're just plussing up this squad. So they fill it full of people. Everybody's on the hook. It's in Washington, near the Washington field office. Correct. Yeah. It's an offsite just nearby. And so they're staffing it up. They're bringing people

in from all over the place. And these are usually voluntold positions. I don't think a lot of people are thrilled about it. Voluntold. You know, one of the guys out of my office, it was his first year in. He was like, oh, let me see DC. I said, all it's going to teach you is that you don't want to go to DC. But yeah, that's useful knowledge when you're a younger guy. Like go to DC and realize that it's not good.

So, you know, he went and then he complained to me every single day in text messages. Hey, this is not a good spot. Like what's going on here? It's like, but he saw a lot of things. Good for him. Here's the deal. We had a queue of these leads and the leads are these operational requests, right? Whether you go pick up a subpoena, you're going to go get stuff from a bank. You're going to go interview somebody in a different area. So we don't have to fly an

agent in. We got an agent right there. They'll just go do the questions. So you send your questionnaires. Here's what it is. Sometimes we get them for clearing like federal judges and stuff like that. So we'll go do that. But this is a totally different animal, these leads. They're coming in out of the national call center and they're coming in, you know, most of that call center and hyperbolically speaking, we say there's, you know, 99% crazies. It's the guy, you know, the CIA put a bug in my ear and the FBI is trying to kill me or, you know, I got to go do this thing. All the crazies. These are a different animal altogether. It was America, like just going crazy. So, and some of them, you only, you have to just quote them because they're so wild. It's

like, I got one that says something like, you know, Hey, I knew Dan, you know, back in high school, he was a real a-hole and I'm pretty sure he loved Reagan. You know, he probably loved Trump directly. These are, these are all over the place. There were dozens of these things, if not more, that I saw. And I only saw, you know, maybe 1,000 or 2,000. But we're just trolling through these things. And it's saying like, you know, I don't know if he was at January 6th, but he probably would have been. Calling the FBI to do that.

Yeah, or they'd send it in online. A lot of those would come in online. So we'd get the IP and it would tell you where it was coming from. And so they'd go, you know, whatever it is, they would just tell you this crazy story. It's like, I didn't like him a long time ago. I haven't seen him in 10 years, but he kind of looks like picture number 75. Cause there was a whole lineup of hundreds of people that were, you know, pictured breaching the Capitol or whatever it was. And it's like, yeah, he looks like number 75. So it's probably him. Go get him, you know? So if you sent that to me, I would throw that in

the trash. That's garbage. That's not a lead. That's a crazy person to me. That's a potentially someone alleging a first amendment protective activity that they attended a rally. Okay. But that's not what happened. And like I'm saying, there were tens of thousands of these things and there were hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of people looking at them. So somebody would go do the background research. Some of these would come in half baked with a package and they'd be like, yeah, we looked up Dan and, uh, you know, he lives in Wichita, Kansas and, uh, you know, here's his address and we need someone to go talk to him. And so what happened in so many of these things is that somebody would go out and talk to you,

which I would have absolutely either walked up and just said something to the effect of, it's like, hey, I'm from the FBI. You want to talk to me today? You know, you want to have this conversation? Because you 100% are within your rights to say no. Oh, you don't want to talk to me. Well, it's really nice meeting you.

Have a nice day. I'm out. You know, that's the end of that. But so many people, because of the letters of it, and because the people associate the FBI with being this law enforcement agency when it acts like an intelligence agency, they came out and they would talk. And it turns out you weren't at January 6th.

You didn't show up at the Capitol. You were going to go, you said it on Facebook, but you actually didn't. But your buddy did. Well, what's your buddy's name? And then you tell me. All right, well, then we go talk to him. Hey, were you in the Capitol?

Yeah. Did you take any pictures? Can we see your phone? Oh, okay. Cool. Trespassing charges. Trespassing. Well, whatever it was, you know, trespassing, or you went behind the lines, or you interfered

with the congressional, whatever the charges are. So many of them are misdemeanors. And I say it in that way, because again, you associate the FBI with, you know, major international conspiracies. Taking down the mob. Taking down the mob. You know, the Rudy Giuliani era. I mean, I had worked with George Gabriel, who was involved with the John Gotti case when he was running Lyra in Long Island.

Trespassing, as my buddy Pete Hegseth said on Fox once, reminds me of the Allen Iverson quote, practice? You know, we're talking about practicing. You know, I get it. I would have not preferred January 6th turned out different as well. I think any sane person would have been. But to take six-figure FBI earners with a set of skills and to let them just run out all across America taking tips about a guy you met in potentially eighth grade showing

up on January 6th sounds a little Orwellian. It seems insane. And it happened. And it probably will continue. The first thing they teach you in the academy when they're going through the basic law, we don't learn any federal statutes, which is a little bit weird. And that's probably a surprise to people who went to things like FLEO or people who've been through other law enforcement academies. We don't cover federal statutes. We cover constitutional law. So that's good. Yeah, but how do you investigate the federal statutes if you're not learning them in Quantico? You got to go learn them at your field squad. And you pretty much only learn what you're working. Wow, that's interesting. So it's not like I'm walking through the street and I have a broad palette of federal cases that

I have in my mind. And it's like, when I see the problem, it's like, oh, I know that's a violation of, you know, fill in the blank, 18 U.S.C. this or 21. That's not how it works. We have two major, you know, coverages, Title 18 and Title 21. And then you just go learn them as you apply them. And they're not taught. So, but they do teach you that we don't do misdemeanors. The FBI doesn't mess around with misdemeanors, at least in 2016, they told us that. That's the message I walked around with. And The FBI doesn't mess around with misdemeanors, at least in 2016, they told us that. That's the message I walked around with. And we don't really mess around with low-level felonies that, you know, things like, you know, lying to the FBI, the famous 18 USC 1001 charge. It's the only one that I ever remember being discussed by all the instructors there. And it's always really

funny because I actually got called back to the academy three months after I started working in the field office because I've been a paramedic for a long time and I was a free instructor to do emergency medical stuff. So I'd sit down with all these new, almost ready to be badge and gun FBI agents. And I would just mess with them a little bit because that's the kind of guy that I am. We're sitting down there and some of the people who see this will remember me doing it. But I say, OK, so everyone here is about to be a federal law enforcement officer, a federal law enforcement agent. What are some federal laws that we know? And then it's just like just silence and crickets. And that blank look would fall over their face like, we don't know any laws. We don't know any laws or what the elements of the crimes are that would constitute a violation of that law. They're just not covered, which probably is insane to a lot of people,

but that's the way that it comes out. So you're very, very malleable when you come out. So you've got a potential new guy just off probation, gets TDY, temporary duty to DC to investigate the January 6th folks, who doesn't have a wide kind of breadth of what he should be looking for in terms of serious federal crimes,

because he never learned it. He learned constitutional law, the overview, and basically 1001. So you're out in the field kind of just susceptible to what the next guy who's more senior to you

told you to do. So if he just doesn't like a few people he's going out to investigate and decides he's going to focus on grandma and her six friends, they're in real trouble. I imagine so, yeah,

because you're going to take the senior guy's word for it because he's been doing it for longer. And you haven't been trained on what the elements of the other crimes are. No. And that's what's really interesting of these January 6 filings. They're so long. You can always tell the difference between a national security filing and most criminal filings, unless it's a really complicated white collar case. And I've read a couple of them. But essentially, when you look at these, you know, most most criminal complaints are very short. It's a couple of pages for a reason. Yeah, because they did one thing and they did that thing. And then here's what the elements are. And here's the probable cause to establish it. We'll get the rest

out upon discovery later on. I don't want to give you all my goodies. Right. But more importantly, like I just have to meet the elements of probable cause. So here it is. When you go through and read national security filings, whether it's counterterrorism or these January 6th misdemeanors and so on, they're really long. Someone was telling me that they're running affidavits. So the affidavit is the piece of the search warrant or the arrest warrant that says what your case is, right? Just what you're swearing out to the magistrate judge. Dozens of pages, all kinds of backstories, Trump's tweets. Why do you think that is? dozens of pages, all kinds of backstories, Trump's tweets, news stories, because that's how they build information. They're building an informational story. That's my belief. Do you think they realize the press are getting, I get that, but the press is going to get so they

want to tell the story and stick as much indictable material in the public eye in that as possible? There's some court of public opinion win there, I'm sure. The other piece of it is probably the, if you don't have the goods, you baffle them with BS kind of deal. There's a lot of information in there. The other thing is this, the FBI has a lot of credibility with magistrate judges, in my experience, which is admittedly fairly limited. But everybody tells me this, if you bring it out there, you swear to it. It's not like the judge is going to question you on a bunch of the elements of it. If it looks good, sounds pretty good, it's written in English, you know, the punctuation's where it belongs, you didn't make any obvious formatting

errors, it's good to go. It goes forward. You know, we have these templates that you'll go use. There's a different name internally. It's called ponies, but they'll, you got a pony, it looks good, you fill in the place, this is my name, you know, this is my training, this is the specialized training I have. They call them go-bys. Yep, same idea. I don in the place. This is my name. You know, this is my training. This is the specialized training I have. They call them go-bys. Yep, same idea. I don't know why we have our own name for it. Everyone else calls them a go-by, by the way.

Everybody else, if I ever ask for it, I can't. Go-by this. Yeah, you have a pony. No, I don't have a pony. You don't know what that is. No, I have a horse. So we do this thing. And as long as it looks right, you're good to go.

I mean, I've read counterterrorism affidavits and somebody, and I've reported this to Congress, so I'll just leave it at that. But I've read some that had outright lies in them. They were factually inaccurate and everybody should know it. Trying to tell somebody that, and the person who wrote it should probably have what we call giggleo material, which is to say they shouldn't be able to testify. You lied under oath. You had to raise your hand and swear and affirm that what you said was true. And it's false. That's terrifying. Like you shouldn't be able to put false information into a warrant and take somebody down for that. Once you're gigliot as a fed, you're done. That's it. Yeah. At the end of the day. Yeah. I mean, you can never work again. You

can never testify because it's brought up every single case in the future. You have to disclose it. It's required disclosure as part of discovery. You got to tell them that, yeah, I've been found to have lied under oath. Let's do a contrast for a moment. So you required disclosure as part of the discovery. You got to tell them that, yeah, I've been found to have lied under oath. Let's do a contrast for a moment. So you're in the FBI while the Antifa BLM riots are going on. We've got this massive outbreak of violence across American cities going on. Was there a similar effort within the FBI as you saw after January 6th, which by your description is a clear full court press here.

They got everyone involved and everyone even secondarily involved. Did you see anything similar when all these riots were breaking out with the Antifa and these BLM groups? So I wasn't in an investigative role. I was in a surveillance role at that time. And we were with the uniform division of Secret Service the day after they burned St. George Church. I was there when there were stacks of bricks on the ground that were lined up and they were covered in granola bars, which was bizarre. You know, friends of mine had been getting in fights all night long. They had put different SWAT teams on the line, but federal SWAT teams are not designed for crowd control. They don't have that training. They don't have that equipment. They brought in a bureau of prisons to try to

hold these lines. But did we investigate those people? Did we, you know, haul them down by the dozens and throw them into the DC, you know, haul them down by the dozens and throw them into the D.C., you know, the D.C. jail system? Absolutely not. But that's what happened in January 6th. Of course. Yeah. I mean, the contrast was obvious. I actually did a two week stint where I was out in Portland and the courthouse. Well, we were on we were on. They'd moved on from the courthouse by that time. So they had already they were somewhere in the middle of 100 days, but it was towards the tail end of it. And,

you know, I saw like, like street battles and parks between Portland police Bureau and these goons that were just running around there. They look like they were like LARPing nights. I just was cracking up about it. Like it was one of the funniest things. If it wasn't so sad and so bizarre that it was going on, it was hilarious to watch.

Like I hear guys yell retreat at the top of their lungs and they all run off into a neighborhood and Right. And you look and you're like, what in the world? We got night vision, you know, they're watching what's going on.

They've seen too many movies. They have. And then they come running back in with their shields and they try to hit the, you know, the police. You got to give

the Portland Police Bureau credit. The guys they put on the line were monsters. They were absolutely just jacked studs. And so you just watch them just like 12 of them would just repeal,

you know, they would just break the phalanx of 60 of these goofballs coming running up in cartoon costumes. I guess when you're 120 pounds soaking wet and you've been eating hot pockets all day. Yeah, it takes three of you. It takes three of you to try to disrupt like a grown man that looks like he's going to do it. No, I get it. Face planting them and stuff. We saw wild stuff, but we didn't have any intervention. And we had federal targets. And there was no effort to go and kind of do surveillance on this network to see who was

organizing where these bricks with their granola bars were coming from? There's two pieces of that that are really troubling to me. Number one, I watched a federal target get wrapped up in a state arrest, got interviewed and let go that night. Interviewed by us, not by my squad, but by agents in that field office. And it's like, how did we just let that happen? We know that there was a state charge. Can we ask them to

hold them? There was no appetite to do that and we couldn't push it federal. And then the second piece of it is I sat in a car and I'm pretty sure I got yelled at for this, but I sat in a car because I wanted to watch. That was my job. My job is to see what's going on there. So it's my second to last night there. I know if they burn the vehicle, that's to say they see the plates and they know what it is and they put it out of the radio. It doesn't really matter for our operational work because I'm going to turn that car into the rental agency and some other poor sap's going to be driving it. Hopefully he doesn't get beat up and doesn't look anything like me. I had a pretty heavy beard at the time and I'm wearing a dark Carhartt hoodie, you know,

and I've got my body armor on the whole deal. And I'm sitting in this vehicle, pickup truck, and I'm five miles away, three miles away or something from this rioty protest where they're burning things in the middle of the parking lot. They're screaming about something. Some guy who robbed a liquor store and then got shot because he pointed his gun at the cops, something like that. And I remember going like, well, that's what happens. Bad choice. So I get a heads up. Hey, there may be a security element moving to your position.

And I get maybe a half dozen hey, there may be a security element moving to your position. And I get maybe a half dozen of these Antifa types. They're wearing tactical looking vests, but I don't think they had any body armor in it. They just looked good. It was cosplay, right? They had a patch on there with a fist and this kind of deal. And it was a gal who was kind of tall. She looked like an 80s villain. She had like, you know, bleach blonde hair, real short.

She's wearing a black miniskirt with these like, yeah had like, you know, bleach blonde hair, real short. She's wearing a black mini skirt with these like, yeah, just, you know, she's dressed up in her part. She's got fishnets on and high boots. And she's there

with a couple of guys that look like they were beefier than the other guys. They look like normal, you know, meat-eating type human beings. And they're surrounding this vehicle that I'm in.

And I just thought like, now what? Oops. Like now I'm sitting here and they all came out from behind the buildings. I saw them behind me. I can run and burn the fact that I was doing what I was doing, or I can sit there and eat beef jerky and just kind of talk to them for a little bit. So, you know, they came up to the window, which I had rolled down just so I could kind of

get some air in the car. Cause we're not running the engine. You don't want to call attention yourself. So I'm sitting there. It's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm eating beef jerky. What are you doing? It's like, you look real sketchy. It's like, you look sketchy. Like, where'd you get those fishnets? Like, they still make those? Is Hot Topic still open? You know, like, I'm just, I'm just zinging her with it. And she's telling her buddies, they're trying to take their cameras and take pictures of me and kind of just block. It's like, hey, man, do you want me to drive off and take you with me? Or do you want to ride? Do you need to go somewhere? What's going on? And they outed themselves. One of the guys tells me,

he ends up that he was, you know, I saw you the other day, you know, and he's like, I saw you. Were you at the park on Sunday? It's like, dude, I don't even know what day it is today. Like, well, how would I know? And he goes, he goes, yeah, I was in the blue and white Yamaha. And I was like, no kidding. I never saw your face. Snap, got you.

Okay, good. Now there's one more down. So I'm taking pictures of them every once in a while too. And we floated it all up. Had to write up a long brief because I was off duty theoretically. We're never really off duty, right? We're always on duty, but I was away from my squad kind of sitting by myself. So I write it all up, nothing. It's like they came out pretty overt threat. They heard that they were calling out my plates over their radio system. They were using FRS radios,

which we were able to record. So we had all of their interactions. And that was the third, I was probably the third or fourth agent that was outed during that three or four days where it was pretty tight. One of my guys drove off and we were told to bug out for a little bit. He goes driving off and he was chased by, you can't make it up. He was chased by five people on bicycles. He was driving a Nissan Armada. He's an agent 25 years in, former Marine, capable, salty hair, salt and pepper, but very capable individual as far as that goes. He's getting followed by bicycles and they're doing this bicycle convoy and he's running red lights to just get away from them. They're running the red lights too, just following him, just chasing him off the X. And it's like- But nothing happened.

But nothing happened. Yeah. There's no, oh, hey, were you engaged in a... We could have rolled any of those people up and had a conversation when they were far away. It's like, what do you think you're doing? It sounds like that was more of a political decision than it was a law enforcement one. I mean, they legitimately tried to burn down that courthouse. That's right. And you have to remember, President Trump, I know a lot of Secret Service agents who

were there that night who spoke to me specifically the night they tried to get into the White House. Those guys got hurt. A lot of agents got hurt. The guys I worked with that day were hurt. Down to the bunker. And the media thought that was hilarious. I wanted to get to a few other things with you.

This recent whistleblower revelation about the push to classify cases around the country as domestic violent extremist cases to pitch this narrative that there's a big domestic terror problem. We're going to get to that in a second. Let me just take a quick break and we'll be right back. Folks, thank you for your patience during this brief break. We really appreciate it. We'll be right back with our interview with FBI whistleblower Kyle Serafin in just a moment.

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BrickHouseNutrition.com slash Dan. BrickHouseNutrition.com slash Dan. Use promo code Dan. The search for truth never ends. Introducing June's Journey, a hidden object mobile game with a captivating story. Connect with friends, explore the roaring 20s, and enjoy thrilling activities and challenges while supporting environmental causes. After seven years, the adventure continues with our immersive travels feature.

Explore distant cultures and engage in exciting experiences. There's always something new to discover. Are you ready? Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Now back to our interview with Kyle Servin. All right, welcome back. We're talking to FBI agent Kyle Cerf. Kyle, there was a story out recently that they're looking to bump up and juice the numbers

on domestic violent extremism in the FBI pursuant to a push from the DOJ and the White House. One of the allegations was that they're opening up cases around the country that may have originated exclusively in D.C. with January 6th. Can you tell us about that, how that works and how that would juice the stats to fit a narrative? So if you had, I guess there's two ways to open a case, right? You can open an umbrella case and you can open a bunch of sub files underneath it. It's like, here's all the targets under this particular larger event that happened.

And they could do that with January 6th. But as I understand it, each person's being individually open. That was the gist of what I took away from what that person said. And I actually don't know that person, which is, it kind of warms my heart. There's people out there that I don't know that are putting disclosures and everything about that. Like I said, I got three, 400 people that are upset and they don't want the things going on that are going on. And there's allegations come out. We go, hey, does anyone know this guy? And it's like, reach out to us, please. Like, reach out to me.

I just created a true social account. I despise the idea of having social media, but it's a necessary evil. It's Kyle Serafin. It's at Kyle Serafin on Truth. Spell it out for them so they can follow you. It's K-Y-L-E-S-E-R-A-P-H-I-N. On Truth Social. On Truth.

So reach out to me. Like, let's all get us, like the more nodes. We figured there's probably four or five nodes of FBI whistleblowers, and they're all probably feeding each other information because people are fed up. I mean, the agency did not, a lot of people didn't sign up for this. I don't think the majority of the FBI per se is willing to go along with this, but so many people have gone along with all the COVID pieces and all the different compliance mechanisms. It's just one more step.

People don't know what to do, but some of these are a step too far. Thank God for a couple of them. You think they may be opening up these cases as sub files? Again, I know you're not that specific whistleblower, but he seemed to be insinuating that these cases were being opened up Opened up to kind of fit a case quota more than to fit an investigative, right? So my friends who were counterterrorism I painted out there. I was like, hey, is this a thing? Are we doing what they call racially motivated violent extremism cases? Are there numbers that we're having to hit? It's like we're constantly getting told that our numbers are too low

You know, i'm personally being told that by told that our numbers are too low. I'm personally being told that by people that I know are being honest with me. So I have every reason to believe that the congressman who said it is out there saying the right thing. Congressman Jordan's people are receiving the information. Word travels fast. There's a funny little piece that Christopher Walken does in a movie called Suicide Kings. He talks about word on the street. It's like one of those classic New York things. He's like, cops know, cops lie, politicians lie, but the thing you can trust word on the street. The word on the street is getting around inside the FBI. I think that there's a path. There are people that if you give it to them, they will expose that. And I think that it has to be done. Like we have no other

option at this point. So it's kind of a de facto quota for these racially motivated kind of white supremacy cases that they're looking for. But doesn't that create, again, a bizarre set of incentives where if you're a field agent looking for promotion, you're being told by your supervisor, you know, hey, it'd be kind of a shame if you didn't find a white supremacist threat today. I mean, like I said before, when you're looking in the Salem witch trials for a witch, you're going to find one. Right. Then you find people under investigation for, you know, white supremacy.

Listen, if you've been involved in that kind of stuff, then by all means, that's what we do. But the incentives are all wrong. So it's not nearly as overt as any of that, as you can imagine. I mean, that's the hyperbolic version of it, right? How does it go down? Someone's got to come and tell you, every FBI office has field health metrics. It's going to be X number

of cases opened up under whatever types of cases. How many diversity events we attended as a squad is one of those metrics. It's like a bunch of other, just like there's administrative, there's case, there's operational, there's outcomes and so on. And they need to hit X number of them, as I understand it, to get the bonuses. A lot of people don't understand that once you reach the GS-15 level, for us, that's the ASAC, the Assistant Special Agent in Charge level. The next guy up is making bonuses on performance. It's more than the normal government PACE app. So a lot of Secret Service guys cap out, it's $174,000 and change. They're doing a lot of overtime to earn that. They're busting their

butts. There's no doubt about it. You can get above that cap once you move into the ESES, you've moved off the GS scale. And so those people are working on a totally different incentive structure. And those incentive structures are kind of a negotiation as I understand it. They covered it in the academy, I don't know why, it didn't really matter to me then and it started getting more interesting to me now when I start looking at it. And it's a negotiation I understand from headquarters and the field saying, hey, we think these are your threats and this is the things you should be performing on. And they push back and they kind of negotiate out, like, this is how I'm going to be rated for the year. And so they pick up what's the top threat in that area. There's a national threat indexing. There's a banding level where we talk about what

the big things are that we're looking at. And then you kind of go, well, you know, I'm in, take your pick. Yeah, I'm in Alaska. We don't have any abortion clinics up here or wherever that is. I don't know if there's any in there, but there's not very many people. So we don't actually have any of that. So we can't, or Mississippi, let's say. You're in Mississippi. There's not any abortion clinics. So we don't have anyone protesting outside of abortion clinics.

So that's not a threat of bombing an abortion clinic. So we can't have that high up on our list. It may be higher nationally than it is locally. So they'll, but they'll come at you and they'll just say, hey, you know, I got transferred to a national security squad when I came back to work. And they said, we need to get some business. We need to get you some cases. It's like, okay, well, what are you working on? You move me onto a squad theoretically because there's a need.

But that's not really how it works. They moved me onto a squad because there was a spot on the squad and we need to have people doing national security investigations on that squad. So go find some national security problems. Go drive out in the desert, go look around at the border. And then, you know, when I come back with something like a cartel case, because I got some border patrol guys, I had a great meeting with some of those guys down there. You know, they go, hey, I think we've got this long-term smuggling operation. You guys ever going to be interested in it or what's going on? And I said, yeah, maybe I think so. That sounds good. And then what's the thing that comes back? It's like, well, that could be a counterintelligence

investigation, right? We could open up a parallel because we don't know that they're not smuggling in spies, right? They're probably just moving in migrant workers and drugs and whatever other weapons. Why the push though to move it in the intel space? Because we got to have some national security investigations to justify the job that you have in this place where they put you. You're there. It must be work for you because we assigned you to it. So let's create some work for it. And so that's the same reason why I showed up at Washington Field and end up with, I'm on a squad where there wasn't enough work for me. I used to tell my supervisor, I was like a sump pump with no off switch. If you don't put any

water in, you just burn the pump out. I was getting bored. I started looking around, seeing who's screwing up in the office. And that's what would happen. It was just like, I sit there for hours and hours and hours. And it's only so many hours you can read the same FISA material, or you can read the same, you know, emails back and forth between something or read the old case files. If there's nothing that you can do on it. And there's sometimes nothing you can do on it. And if they won't let you go interview your subject, close it. Because that's what has to happen. You got to get approval to go interview that guy. Then you're just sitting there. And it's like, okay, so you might as well open some cases. I've had friends tell me they got no problems,

friends, acquaintances, whatever it may be, they got no problem opening cases on these, you know, neo-Nazis or whatever it is, even though the things they're doing are 100% First Amendment protected. And that's really, this is where I get really hot about it because I'm a, I'm a civil rights activist, I guess, at heart. When it comes down to it, everyone should have the same ability to be a jerk. But you're allowed to be a moron. You, that's part of the American right. You can't break the law, but you're allowed to be a jerk. You're allowed to be a moron. It's part of the American right. You can't break the law, but you're allowed to be an idiot. As long as you're not threatening people or trying to execute some sort of violence on them, you know, having terrible ideas is kind of an American

right. It's sort of a thing that this found, like we're a revolutionary nation in that way. And moreover, the only type of speech, and I've heard Ben Shapiro say something similar to this, it's like the only type of inflammatory or the only type of speech that needs protection is inflammatory speech. Like ho-hum, mellow, our conversation back and forth does not need protection. Nobody cares. Right. It's when you start saying wild things, you go out there and you make claims against racial groups or you start saying you hate certain people for certain reasons that are wrong. Okay, fine. Like let's expose that. But the idea, every single one of these bureau caveats, they'll always put a caveat on there. They're like, you know, the FBI doesn't

initiate an investigation just because of First Amendment protective activities. But don't worry about that because we're going to tell you a whole bunch of stuff we need you to go look into. So that's not how it actually works. Well, I've never seen anybody have that stop them. And the ones that do, if you push back, I mean, you close the case. That's kind of weird. Like the Bill of Rights doesn't actually stop anyone. It's kind of like antithetical to a constitutional republic, wouldn't you say? Yeah, it definitely is. Like the whole idea of the Bill of Rights is to stop over-intrusive government. Correct. And you're telling me there's loopholes around it. Well, think about why.

Criminal investigation, there has to be an allegation or the information that you have committed a crime or that a crime is committed and then somebody did it. We'll go find out, right? So we got the crime. We can go find the bad guy. We got the bad guy who did some crime, we can go find more crimes. That's criminal. That has nothing to do with intelligence. Does this go back to the beginning of the first episode here

when you had told me how this is why the FBI has fallen in love with being an intelligence organization rather than, because they can almost do whatever they want. Yep. It doesn't, they don't have the same type of standards because the goals are not the same as what people would anticipate. It's why it's incongruous in so many people's mind. And here's the real problem. FBI agents are a specific federal category of employment. They're 1811, right? 1-8-1-1. You can look up what the job criteria is online. It's out there. It's on OPM's website. And it's criminal investigator. There's no such thing as a special agent. A special agent is a

title that's given to you by your agency. But your job is that you're a criminal investigator. That's right. So if you're a criminal investigator and you're not looking for crimes, why are you doing that? Why don't we just have intel people looking for intel stuff? And if they see something that looks criminal, they throw it over to the guy that's doing that. In a lot of ways, and I've had many people tell me this, and it goes deep and wide, FBI wide. And I think that you were citing a piece the other day on your show about it, but it's like, I think director Mueller did the one thing. He didn't know it, but it's a fatal wound.

I like to describe people. When I was first working in a skiff, I told people, I said, fatal wound. I like to describe people, when I was first working in a skiff, I told people, I said, the FBI is a, it's a hammer with a screwdriver welded on top of it, right? And one of those is law enforcement and one of those is intelligence. And they're both really unwieldy. Like nobody wants to swing a hammer that's got some counterweight that doesn't make any sense. You can't get there. Can't get close enough to the wall to hit certain things, whatever. And that screwdriver is super awkward to try to turn and get in there and move something because it's got this heavy you know dongle of a of a hammer on it when you have this sort of two things that are antithetical to each other welded together you're gonna the mission doesn't work like one of them's gonna win it's that's a biblical piece if you think about it right like

no man can serve two masters and you can't be an intelligence agency that does law enforcement or in a law enforcement agency that does intelligence. I don't think they can exist. They have to, I think that mission has to be separated. We always debate, you know, is the, is the bureau model good? Or is it, you know, the MI5, MI6 model good? And I've met some folks from over there. We did some, you know, operations with them.

I think they figured it out better. I don't know. You don't want to give the Brits any credit when they don't need it. But the same beef with, I mean, I wrote a book about this. I think the secret services main flaw is doing investigations of protection. They like to claim one benefits the other, but in reality, it doesn't. They're different missions. Yeah.

I mean, you've got to do a protection assignment post-standing. AUSA needs you to testify. It can't be in two places at once. Right. AUSA gets pissed off, doesn't want to work cases with the Secret Service. This is real. Let me ask your opinion on a couple other things. That Wall Street Journal piece you'd mentioned, Tom Baker wrote. It's a good piece. He said that Mueller, after 9-11, shows up at Camp

David. He's with George Tenet from the CIA. George W. Bush, this is just a week after 9-11, is asking questions. And Tenet has this whole body of information ready to go. Mueller, who is running at that time, but was still a relatively law enforcement-centric organization, doesn't have that kind of information. Right. George W. looks at him and says, you need to be more like George Tenet here. The piece indicates that from that point, Mueller decided to centralize everything in headquarters and became an intelligence organization from that point on. But that's kind of led to all these problems we're talking about that kind of come full

circle to the beginning. I think so. Where guys like yourself who are field guys, who wear wear boots literally in this case and have done investigative work, military background, they hired you for a reason. You're subordinated to a headquarters guy, two, three years in the job, has never done anything, is hoping for a political promotion next. You're just a piece in their puzzle at that point. You're not really an asset anymore, other than if you don't fit their political narrative, I guess is where I'm going. There's two things that I remember.

One of them is one of the senior guys I worked with who's since retired told me that watching the Bureau go after the domestic intelligence mission after 9-11 was like watching a dog run down a hubcap or a car chasing the hubcaps. And when he catches it, he doesn't know what to do with it because it's a car and he's a dog. And it's like or, you know, a car chasing the hubcaps. And when he catches it, he doesn't know what to do with it because it's a car and he's a dog. And it's like, this doesn't make any sense. It's not what I'm built to do. Like, I got it. All right, now what? And that was the attitude he said he experienced very dramatically. That was number one. The second thing is there's a weird cultural thing. And the bureau culture, it's famously bad

internally, management wise. There's books written about it. Like one of the books somebody gave me my first couple of weeks, they drop on my desk. They go, here, you should read this. It's like the FBI, they eat their own. Retired agent wrote it. It's terrible. It's a terrible story, but it's accurate, right? It's just, it's absolutely carnivorous in there. Anybody that's going to climb has got to get up. And the crazy thing is, is once they get to a certain level, and it's probably over the 14, but at the 15 level above, everybody below you, they only exist to get me to the next rung. That's how it's looked at. So you talk about being a cog in somebody else's political game. It's not political necessarily, even. That's the craziest thing about it. It's really hard to grasp because it feels very, you know, the action may be

overtly political and may have political implications, but a lot of it, I think it's just selfishness. It's just, it's one guy looking down and going, everybody here, you know, I worked my butt off to get to this spot and their job is to push me up. So they step on all the heads to get to the next rung, whatever that may be, everybody else be damned. If that means, I mean, I had people legitimately tell me that the culture of the FBI promotes doing a disciplinary action against one of your subordinates within your first year of being a supervisor because it shows strength. So there's a goal. And I have friends who have been victims of this. Like I had a guy that he was ready to get off probation in my office.

I won't name him, but he was a cop. He's a good dude. And if he hears this, I still think he's a good dude. And I thought he was really brave. He figured it out right away. You know, he was a cop. He didn't have any, he didn't have the nonsense that some of us saw. He sat in a training exercise. I look over, I said, you're not carrying a gun. He goes, this job doesn't require a gun. I used to do a job that carried a gun. This one doesn't deserve me carrying. It's not worth it. Why? I just leave it in my car. Why leave it at home? I carry it when I'm on my own time, but not here. This is very safe. And he was correct. You know, he was a cop. He knew what was up. He worked in Maryland. And they fired him. He was forced to resign on his last day of probation where they can remove you for no reason at all. There's no cause required. That's that two-year

probation. And he was a cop, not a military guy. So he didn't get the shortened one. And he got removed because someone said, and it's a famous bureau email. It's gone around. Everyone's seen it. It's called Beware the Acting SSA. He got fired because this gal said, who was acting, she was the acting supervisor for the day, not for a long time, for a day. She said, I wouldn't go to court dressed like that if I were you. He was wearing a shirt and a tie and slacks and dress shoes. And he was going to an initial appearance, which you and I know the case agent might be there in freaking flip-flops. Yeah, jeans, torn up shirt, whatever he did.

He's doing an arrest. Yeah, you just pulled some guy in. You're going to drag him in front of a judge. This isn't a planned testimony. No, and he's not in, he's not preparing to be there. He's in the gallery. So no one cares. They don't even know who he is.

He's just a guy with a tie on. He looks fine. There were three guys that went over there. All three of them got disciplinary action. One of them was forced to resign. I don't know what happened to the third because he wasn't close to me, but I'm sure something terrible. And then my other good friend got two weeks on the bricks. No pay. Over an initial appearance. Over an initial appearance. Over a speculation, I wouldn't go, you know, some sort of speculative hypothetical. I wouldn't go to court like that if

I were you. When they came back, where were you? We went to court. We had to go. And you have to go to court to see certain amount of undertakings in your first year or two. You got to check the box. I saw an initial appearance. I was at initial appearance if you don't have enough arrests. When you're an intel guy, you don't have any arrests at all. You're just sitting there watching somebody else do it. What I'm getting from this is you're telling me that once you get past this GS-15 level and into the senior executive service ranks, which is government-wide, not just the FBI. Correct. 100%. The pay scale. There's an actual financial motive for you to comply with headquarters-type edicts. You can make more money for doing what they'd like you to do. So does the wink and the nod

then come from these SESs down to SACs, special agent in charges in the field, the special agents in charge in the field office, where they're saying, hey, we're looking, we've been told by the administration that this domestic violent extremism thing is a really big deal. Is it like a wink and a nod? How does it get down to you that we really need to reprioritize some of this stuff? Yeah. So it comes to the GS-15, the 15 tells the 14, the 14 says, hey, we got to bump these numbers up. We got to go open some. So you got to go open some. That's what you got to do. Even if they're not there, you got to like- Maybe you double coat it, right? It's like, yeah, maybe the guy robbed a bank, but also he's got a Confederate flag in his backyard. That seems like, I don't know. I haven't opened

anything like that. I can't do that. That's one of the things I know I'm not going to be able to do. And there are people who have gone to the mat for this and they refuse to do it. There's no question about it. So you're not the only one who said, I'm not doing this. No, absolutely not. But the pressure is real. The pressure is real. It exists. It's out there. And there's pushback. But I would say that once you get to the senior executive level, this is, you know, we have five at Washington field office. New York has five or six, whatever it is. There's X number of divisions. Los Angeles has a bunch. They have another. They have an SES two above them, an assistant director in charge on the big ones. But most field offices have one SES.

I think by the time you get there, man, you've been doing this 20 years. You're on the program. There's nobody out there that's, I don't know if they're pushing back. God, I hope they are. I'd love for one of them to come step forward. They have the ability to come out and speak for themselves. So if the SESs were to push back, the senior executive members of the service in the FBI there, you'd have a far different agency because that's their entire management cadre, right? So they used to say that they were like little dukes of their own fiefdom or whatever it is, little principalities. They really, in theory, should be. But I think that the centralization has gotten more complete. Probably back in Mueller's day, it was not the case where the

SES had a lot of power and a lot of discretion. They still are doing their own thing when it comes to their interpretation of policy for a lot of stuff. When it comes to these metrics, when it comes to the types of investigations, as far as I can tell, and this is polling literally hundreds, you know, I'm not just pulling it for me, but it's hundreds in almost every field office that we've got. I don't know anyone that we don't have represented in this group. Everyone's on the same sheet of music that way. It's been centralized to the point where, and you got to remember that the SAC, the SAC, that's a SES1. They're at the bottom of that food chain. You know what I mean? They're at the new food chain, but they're at the bottom of it. We covered a lot of material, the EDU threat tag, domestic violent extremism push, January 6th,

January 6th, change in everything, the fascination with intelligence, your career, what happened to you, the vaccine mandate. I want to close with this. The Mar-a-Lago raid's been of particular interest to me. Of course. It's unprecedented. I mean, literally without precedent, we've never done this before. Regardless of anyone's personal politics, there have been paperwork disputes about this in the past. I'm not asking you to comment on the politics at all. But when FBI agents, specifically Christopher Wray and the management staff, that unquestionably

are briefed in a high profile case like this, do you think it even occurs to them that they're partaking in an act that's so overtly political and has a chance to change the politics of the United States moving forward for the negative? In other words, you think they're saying to Merrick Garland at DOJ, hey, maybe this isn't a good idea, or is it just we're going to be loyal little soldiers here and do what you tell us to do? I don't want to speculate on anyone else's motivation. I know what I look at, right?

I've got friends that I don't speak to after that. I assume they were part of it. It's like, I don't know what happened, but you guys forgot to throw the BS flag on that. You asked me to go raid President Obama's house. You asked me to go raid President Bush's house. It's not happening. I'm sorry. It's not happening.

I'm not doing that. And I'm going to probably be pretty vocal. That's probably going to be my last day. It's not going to happen. So we had a lot of people that said yes. And I think that so much compliance got done. We talked briefly. Here's what all kind of shares my last kind of concern. Every single FBI agent has to go to the Holocaust Museum for a full day when we're in the academy. And they have a special program. I don't know if you've ever been to it, but it's well worth your time.

If you're a law enforcement officer, you should definitely go. Go through the Holocaust Museum and see the piece they do for law enforcement specific. It's a walking tour. It's looking through the lens of how did this atrocity take place?

And the only way it takes place is minor government officials are on board and local law enforcement and state law enforcement and federal law enforcement has to say yes. Because if anybody refuses to get with the program, it doesn't happen. And the answer, I'm just following orders, the Nuremberg piece, it doesn't fly. We know better. That's the whole point of history. We're supposed to be able to see that. That's why every agent has to go to that day. We're supposed to know that if they ask you to do something that's illegal, immoral,

or unethical, following orders is not an excuse. It's not an excuse for me. You can't tell me to go get a vaccine that I'm not going to go get. It goes against my moral principles. I'm not doing it. You can do whatever comes next. You can ask me to do a search warrant. That's not right.

I'm not going to go do it because it fundamentally changes the fabric of this country. It changes the game. It puts people in play in the political arena that shouldn't be. Law enforcement shouldn't be in the political arena, number one. I think we can all agree on that. I think most Americans would stand behind that of all political inklings. And the second piece is, is we don't go after our former leaders and we don't go after the opposition leader.

That's banana republic stuff. Everyone's said it. I know you've said it too. It gets me heated to a level that I can't stand. And it's one of the reasons why when you made your appeal on your radio show, or you might have done on your podcast, it's like America is in jeopardy. I agree. And I don't want my children to grow up in a world where that's the barrel they're looking

down. I don't want my daughter to have to show up and take a pregnancy test every month because it's really disruptive. But we've already taken the COVID test every week. So why wouldn't it be a pregnancy test every month because it's really disruptive, but we've already taken the COVID test every week. So why wouldn't it be a pregnancy test? I don't want my son to have to take STD tests because he was out with a weekend and sometimes guys meet girls. I don't think that's reasonable. I won't go down that line because I can see a straight path to it. And I think everybody that's honest that goes through that museum and looks at all the shoes that still

smell like the people that were wearing them, and there's thousands of them in there. It changes your perspective on the entire world, on how law enforcement has an absolute responsibility to refuse things that are wrong. And we can't do it. We can't do it and have America survive the way that we grew up. And I don't want to be part of it. No, you're right. I mean, I said today on the show, and I guess we can leave it here, that even the president of the United States doesn't have the power to take your life or take your freedom. GS-1811, FBI agents, Secret Service agents, DEA, they do. It's a massive power.

And I have to tell you, it's really refreshing to see guys like yourself speak out. It's been an honor to talk to you, Kyle. Thanks a lot for your time. I know the audience appreciates it. Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks, folks, for tuning in. I really appreciate it. I don't have a lot to add to that. I've just been kind of a little bit overwhelmed. Thanks for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed that interview. I deeply appreciate you taking the time to highlight this extremely critical and important issue in our constitutional republic, politicizing law enforcement. we can't have it no representative democracy will function that way thanks for your time hope you enjoyed the

show see you on monday you just heard the dan bongino show