The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - CINEPHILE - A "Killers of the Flower Moon" Extravaganza

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

Adnan recaps his private screening of Killers of the Flower Moon and gives his review. We're talking to production designer Jack Fisk and casting Director Ellen Lewis and hear from the legend himself, Marty Scorsese talking about the film. Also, Adnan swears he has never called in sick… in America. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I Supposedly performed descent into a nightmarish chapter in the history of American capitalism on a pommatropa of film companion. That's right folks, it's Killers the Flower Moon. I'm positively giddy today. I don't even know how I'm going to do this review, but we're going to get it done. Somehow some way I got into the critics screening of Killers the Flower Moon last Thursday in New York City, and that we have an exclusive review.

Cody, this is the way a true film critic operates. You and I know this. You're supposed to see the movie to critics screening and then the movie opens Friday and you write your review back the day, maybe Miami-Herald, you'd have like a movie review Friday morning, blah, blah. The way we could do it, because I'm not like a real critic, the movie opens Friday. I see it Friday, Saturday, Sunday. We tape it Monday, release it Tuesday, but this time I actually feel like a critic. So this is interesting for me, first and foremost, because I have written my review as if I was a critic, and I keep thinking to myself, I want everyone to listen to this podcast, Cody's gonna work some magic at this in the main feed, but I don't want to ruin it for anybody. So I've written

my review, which we're gonna do in a second, and I've followed the tie-bar model. First third, you can discuss the plot. Second third, last third, you can't tell anything. So at any point, if you feel like I'm saying too much, Thornous Poiler alert. Now before we get into the review, I need you to paint the picture because you were super, super eager to get in, get some access here. How did you get the news? Was there a fist bump? Did I have you yelping? What was the literal reaction to finding out you're whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo And he's like, I don't care. Right, he has no idea. I could not care less. He's like, shoot. Have you seen this Nathan Evoldy tape? I'm like, yeah, what do you say, buddy? I love Nathan Evoldy.

You see, has a role in this movie? So I find it in, and I think I emailed them last Friday and then Tuesday late night, they're like, here's the screenings. And it was like a Monday night. And I was like, no, I have to work. I'm like, what I call and say, I'm like, no, I couldn't in good conscience. It's playoffs, right?

And I've never called in sick under false pretenses. Not in America. I did once in Canada, I couldn't in good conscience. It's playoffs right now. I've never called in sick under false pretenses. Not in America. I did once in Canada, which was when I first sent my ESPN audition. I was, it was literally, we were doing, like rehearsals for a new show. And I'd asked them, it was Canadian Thanksgiving, which just passed.

And I said, can I just have the Monday off? And they're like, no, and I go, okay, it's the only time I've ever called in sick under false pretenses, because ESPN had given me just like an informal meeting And so I was like, I'm sorry to tell you to go if you ever want to call and stick under false pretenses Say you threw your back out. So I threw my back out. Mm-hmm. Drove nine hours to Bristol Met lower your land. Oh, and now we're on our right now ones. Yeah, yeah

The throw your back up. Every one of you want to get Dan to they all have no idea and then I drove back Anyways, this time I was like, oh, I can't call it like I could never do that. It will be network Um, let's work out another time. So Thursday go 10 a.m. or 5 p.m. and go, my God, okay. I think I can do the 5 p.m. I was like, I thought, I thought 10 a.m. I go, get the kids' school, but as you know, no car right now.

I did check the bus schedules. This is where the situation got very delicate. 5 p.m. movie, which is in Broadway Times Square. 1515 Broadway to be specific, Paramount Screening Room. Four boys, as you know, eldest guys got cross country till five, my other son for 15. So my little guy gets one of the bus 305. I got to pick up my other boy's shares 305. So I tell my wife, my car. You stay home, you got mods on the bus, I'll pick up shares, pick him up 304, come

home, five minutes, 309. Game of hug and a kiss. I'm like, I gotta go. He's like, what I gotta go, I gotta go and see a movie. The walk to the bus stop is 12 minutes. So if I leave at 310, I'm not gonna make a bus. The bus was at 317, which I, 319, excuse me, 319. Literally minutes here. And you know, it's like, you're hugging your dog. You don't wanna say goodbye. It's like, good dad, I understand.

I'm like, can I tell you my day? I'm like, we had five minutes. We're gonna have a lot more time tomorrow. I gotta run. I love you buddy. So I'm wearing my Martin Sc day, look, we had five minutes, we're gonna have a lot more time tomorrow. I gotta run. I love you buddy. So I'm wearing my Martin Scrooze as a Marvel sweatshirt, perspiring a little bit, get the jog on, slightly strained hamstring from tennis.

So we're not really running all the way. So we're like, yeah, this could be a little embarrassing. It's a little bit seizing right now. It's fighting through. Yeah, it's that a lame leg dad named working to a bus stop. But I got there 317, bus at 319. Girl soon they're all so many times, oh, you made it, my God,

yeah, I just don't tell anybody how much I'm perspiring. Bus comes 321, so two minutes late, made it with four minutes of spare. Thought then hit while I'm on the bus, you can imagine if there's an accident, like imagine Lincoln tunnel shut down, like imagine I'm on a bus as this happens. Thankfully, Christ is averted, 43 minute bus ride.

Most important thing is what? Use the bathroom. Empty your bladder at Port Authority, take care of business 430. Check the phone, 10 minute walk, bam. 440 walk up security guard, love your sweatshirt, thank you. I go see one of the guys who was on the thread, Jeremy's,

and you made it, I'm like, buddy, you're interesting. I might hug you, I don't even know you. Thank you so much for the screening. Before I walk in, I go, can you see your bathroom? Is it, yeah, I just go on to the bathroom. I'm like, it's me and half-hour, I'm like, I go back to you see your bathroom? Is it? Yeah, I just gone to the bathroom. I'm like, it's me and half-hour, but I go back to the bathroom. This is 4.45. I go in and I'm like, this is like, and then I'm like, I'm about to like,

like, hearts is pounding. I'm like, this is like such an incredible experience. Four years I'm awaiting for Scorsese movie. And he's 80 years old. Like, how many more of these am I going to get? Cody, like this? This is it. You have to bottle this emotion right out. I thought you had to use the restroom and that's why you were having these things. Just know you're just excited for the movie. Okay. You love this aspect though. It's now 455 and I go, maybe one more bathroom break.

It's just in case. Yeah. And even the guy's telling me, like he looks even, I'm like, I just, he more more. He's like, okay, like three and a half, I don't want to have any sort of year in my bladder. I want to just be completely focused.

He's like, yep, couple dribbles later we go back. Guy sits down, just like he's in it out. Yeah, guy looks me, he goes, I know, I'm like, yeah, how you doing? He's like, yeah, a couple dribbles later we go back. Guy sits down, and he's like, yeah, guy looks me and goes, I knew him. I'm like, yeah, how you doing? He's like, good, good. He's like, oh, I'm a huge fan of him. Thanks, Eric from Bro Bible.

I don't know if you would probably do this like me. He goes, Eric Brobile, like, give us a, like, you know what it is, kind of thing. And I'm like, yeah, I don't like, no, I do. I'm like, yeah, Bro Bible, this is something I'd follow. I'm like, I read all your stuff. And he's like, oh, you're here for work? And I'm like, yeah, I do a podcast called Sunafaz.

No, I know, I'm like, but if you know who I was, I'm gonna do a Sunafaz, like maybe, I was a little bit confused. And when I'm like, hey, I'm reviewing the movies. Yeah. So we chat a few minutes, he's from Hoboken, nice to come, I'm like, all right, let's do this. And I love the fact he has a notebook.

How did he get in? Good, great question. Yeah. And I look at my guy, I look like even notebook. And I'm looking around, I go, most critics, and I feel like we just watch it. And you remember whatever you can't say, because he made a funny joke, he's like,, I look like even notebook. And I'm looking around and I go, most critics, and I feel like we just watch it. And you remember whatever you can't say, because he made a funny joke.

He's like, I had a brand new notebook. He came three and a half hours. I need all these pages of it. Yeah. So it was funny. The only thing that never took me out of the movie. The dark theater, it's like, right. Yeah, exactly.

I've done it before. Trust me. I nerded out when I was your age. Like, 35, 30, it's going to be a real film critic. I'm going to take a notebook. And I'm like, direct the unit notes you're writing. You're just really nonsense. You can't, like, after you say, oh, man, I looked really important, but I don't know what the hell I'm gonna take a notebook. I'm like, direct the unit motor writing. You're just scribbling nonsense. You can't, like after a go, man.

I looked really important, but I don't know what the hell I wrote. So a few times I would notice, like I would laugh at something. I'm like, oh, he's scribbling that one down. I'm like, oh, I'm interested when I get to this joke. Anyway, this movie began as a go. I wish I wish I could bottle this emotion. Like granted, I don't do drugs, but I'm like, this must be like, if you're a real drug addict,

it's must be like what heroin's like. This is like, like, once, once phone goes off, dim the lights. Oh, paramount once phone goes off, dim the lights, paramount pictures of like, is it goosebumps when the lights go down? Absolutely, goosebumps. So I'm like, and I'm telling myself,

is never forget this feeling, like this is it, like this is, this is what it's like. Lights fade off, paramount pictures. And away we go. I'm now gonna read my review, because I,

I'm just too emotional. This is where I'll lay out, go ahead. Yeah, thanks. Go ahead. Come make some notes. Well, go ahead. Make notes while that guy was. I'll turn all the lights off in here and take notes on your review. Here we go. Martin Scorsese killers. The flower moon opens the ritual of the Osage. So many of Scorsese movies are ritualistic. Think of Charlie putting his hand above the Flamene mean streets. Travis Martin lonely as driving his cab and frequent adult movie theaters. Jake Lamada and repeated cycle of training

and eating and battering everything in its way. And in the rituals in his religious films, like Jesus in Last Mutation of Christ, the monks of Condoone and the priests of silence. Here, a shot Marty loves employing and also used in silence, an eyeball peaking through observing what's happening, like Raylion's childhood character in goodfills observing the wise guys of the street.

The ritual ends the members of the Osage go outside only to see a geyser erupt and the music from longtime Scorsese collaborator the late Robbie Robertson swells. Yerika they've struck gold. Then the story begins an old school newsreel as if Marty's paying a mass to titles from a Charlie Chaplin or Buster Keaton movie. The Osage became the richest people in America per capita, thanks the ocean of oil underneath their feet to quote Daniel Plandium, PT Anderson's masterpiece, Theroy Blood. That tells us apropos here as well, because all these rich Osage will not be able to enjoy

their riches forever. So how exactly will it be plundered from them? The owner of the Caprius Ernest arrives by train. Scorsese grew up a devotee of Westerns. John Ford's the searchers, for example, directly informs the ending of taxi driver and let's go home, Jenny. You can feel his enthusiasm watching the opening of the picture

in those great wide expansive shots as the director seems as wide as the potential of his first Western as Ernest is at seeing the potential exploration of this new phone territory. He goes to meet his uncle who he calls King played by the endomitable Robert De Niro. This marks De Caprio's sixth collaboration with Scorsese and Bob's 10th collaboration with Marty and second back-to-back after an extended absence. Marty's long-time editor, Thelma Scudemaker, who's cut all of Scorsese's films since 1980s Raging Bull, has called this, Dineros finest performance, and perhaps Bob is due for a late career Oscar. As King, the actor finds a different approach yet again. Silver hair,

sweat back, and preyed piece, circular glasses that give him an avuncular look. This uncle is truly avuncular, as he asked Ernest, what kind of women you lack? What ones? What about red ones? The Osage had a lot of money with them. And Ernest makes it clear with his sideways grin and grimy visage. And I do love that money. Soon he's driving Molly Burkard, played by Lily Gladstone, who's nothing short of a revelation. Their relationship forms the Crocs the movie. And a moment which was ad libbed, she mutters something in Osage and without missing a beat, Leo responds, that must be in handsome and engine. Staying in character, she laughs and they continue on the ride. Later in her home when she tells him to stay

quiet during a rainstorm, she makes it plain to him. She knows he wants to be with her for her money. And he isn't bad in eyes and he sure does love that money. Later, she's with her sister, and she also tells him bluntly, Ernest is is money hungry and Lily doesn't dissuade the notion and says he sure is handsome. Later earnus seeks the advice of King if he should marry Lily and once Uncle gives his blessing the plan has been hatched. In Scorsese's world there isn't one mastermind complicit but entire community and after showcasing love and rituals of the Osage as they start to be murdered our emotional investment rises considerably. Who isn't responsible is King Amanda Balevelins, a crafty benevolent or incarnation of evil, is earnest to love or not a fighter and to ignorant to understand

what's happening or see that worst kind of person, a wolf in sheep's clothing. David Arillac, the critic of Indywire, has called this the best performance of Leonardo DiCaprio's career. It's easy to see why. As you can see, all of de Caprio has tortured us ever. And there's the ever expressive Gladstone, who Spike Lee says she would an Academy Award, suffering through diabetes and seeing the slow, painful dissolution of her society. The capable supporting cast features two long-time actors working with Scorsese for the first time.

Academy Award winner Brendan Frazier for the whale and John Lithgaul playing opposing lawyers and there's also Sally Bugs from the Irishman showing up in a memorable cameo. Scorsese's directoral style is less busy and frenetic than the days of Michael Ballhouse ever present roaming camera in goodfellas. Here rather than elaborate tracking shots, Marty's content have extended takes over the shoulder shots, which means when he wants to ante up the dazzle with a Dante's inferno sequence, as David Grand mentioned, or breaking of the fourth wall, or an extraordinary bit of acting from de Caprio, which exists of an uninterrupted medium shot. The effect is overwhelming. The aforementioned score drum beats with dread, Jack Fisk nails the period production detail.

Rodrigo Prieto's peerless cinematography and Elinus's casting is a face to so many Osage actors who haven't been seen before. Scorsese and co-screener Eric Ross spent two years completely rewriting the script when Leo expressed interest in playing earnest rather than the straight arrow FBI agent played by Jesse Plemons. As Marty said, he was worried about telling yet another white savior tale. Instead, with the cooperation and investment of the Osage community, it's a story of withering betrayal and cataclysmic sadness.

Killers of the Flower Moon is an everlasting elegy and another Marty masterpiece in the world's greatest living director. A month shy of turning 81, he proves he's capable of giving us nothing short of the best picture of the year and a timeless tale that will result in double digit Oscar nominations. There's moments of triumph and humor, but ultimately this is a bleak American tragedy shattering in its depiction of evil and the corrosive nature of the human heart. Goose bumps. Give me something negative. Tell me one negative sentence about it. But the question really is like, what would have it had to take for me to not. Seriously me one negative sentence about it. But yeah, the question releases like what would have

It had to take for me to not Seriously, that's what I would But seriously you have nothing like is there anything any critiques? I tell you man I as soon as it's over. It's it's three and a half like it's three and a half hours on the dot I turn my phone on I see like 12 messages. It's like how about that tray turn around like no I don't care right now. I, that's really not my focus. And I kind of, I catch my breath. I kind of want to talk to buddy there from the bro,

but he, he dipped right away. He gets up, I guess, I kind of want to have a conversation with him, but, but it's such a show. You just want to be like, Hey, can we just go and talk about this? Like me and you, you're taking the train? I got to take the bus back home. Trust me, I had a $21 bus ride. I'll walk with you.

But as I went, thank for the bathroom right away. I looked at the guy next, thank you not the urinal. And I was just like, man, that's, that's heavy. He's like, yeah. And then we discussed a couple of scenes. I'm like, that's, uh, I just feel so great. I feel like I have to see it. He's like, yeah, I feel the same way. And then I walk out and you go back into society. Many would argue the worst of society, which is Times Square and everyone hustling and busting. I'm like, I can't do this right now. I don't, I don't want to go to a bus. I don't want to be surrounded by people dressed as Iron Man. I'm going to go to sports bar. I'm, I don't want to go to a bus. I don't want to be surrounded by people dressed as Iron Man.

I'm going to go to a sports bar. I'm my first got a veggie cheese slice. It was like $6.33. Let me just, you know, for me, throw all these text messages, think about the movie, watch the movie, the Phillies game, took the bus home, but I was just like, oh my god, man, I,

I can't wait to see it again. Like, you know, when you see it, great film. I was like, okay, that's one down. Now I can't wait to see it again. And like, as you're watching it the first time, you're just watching the story under full, what's gonna happen? Now I wanna watch the second time

I watch my critical eye looking for certain scenes, but I can't wait to see it. And are you still gonna bring your wife? Also excellent question. So I went back and I said you're this week, I'm like, hey, Thursday night shower, I rescheduled the kids swimming. She has her cousin coming Friday in a town for a couple days.

So I'm like, did you still want me to get the sitter? And she was like, no, I just canceled the sitter. I'm like, are you sure? She's not sure. She's not rescheduled. The kids swimming. She has her cousin coming Friday in a town for a couple days. So I'm like, did you still want me to get the sitar? And she's like, no, I just cancel the sitar. I'm like, are you sure she's the count? I'm like, okay, like don't ask me twice because I'm like that guy. So now I'm going to do this. Basically, she's saying, you know, she's prioritizing the factor of cousins coming. She's totally fine. She wants to get the house ready. But now I'm like Friday, once I get the kids to school, I'm going to go see a 90 on the screen. Knock that out for three and a half hours. And then shoot, I'll be on the road to the world series, could be Rangers Phillies and like, man, if I get a,

I don't know, I wouldn't have a day off to be traveling, but my show is, me and Harold are doing the pre-game. So, if I get a 10-A-M showing in Philadelphia, I'd be cracking out, I'd kill as the fireman screaming. What is this price harper? What's the most you've ever seen one movie in a theater? It'd be the Irishman, which I saw three times in the theaters. That was New York film, predict screening, which of the most you've ever seen one movie in a theater? It'd be the Irishman which I saw three times in the theater

So that was New York film critics screening which was you know, it's Chris as you deniro Pacino Pesci and then I took my wife and the next year Maybe it was the day after and then my one of my buddies close friends from Kingston was Listening like a month later. He's a guy. I've seen the Irishman. I go. Let's go do it So three is the most I've ever done and you'll do this one three we think yeah, I think so It's gotta be I mean it's it's it's minimum two It's just it just wouldn't be me if it wasn't three. Well, you do one is the better question. I want to see it. I mean, I missed I wanted to review it on here, but you got it ahead of time, but I do. I am

going to go see it. All right. We have as well a couple of members of the team, which is fantastic. So again, I, I can't thank Mason and Jeremy and the rest of the crew here from 42 West. These guys were awesome because I mean, they did see when I walked in with a sweatshirt that I go, listen, I'm locked in. So afterwards, I said, it's the best movie of the year. What can we do here? I'm going to give a kidney for five minutes of Marty. They're not going to get to Scorsese, unfortunately. Did Time Magazine, it's not going to do cinephile.

But I did get the invite to the webinar. So 30 minutes of Marty talking to all of us on the global stage, and they're kind of sent along some clips of that. So take a listen, here's Martin Scorsese, talking about Killersers the Flower Moon. Welcome to the Global Press Conference for Killers of the Flower Moon. And we are extraordinary lucky and honest to have with us here today a man who really does not need presentation. As is one of the greatest filmmakers of all time who has co-written, directed, and produced what, in my opinion, is a masterpiece.

Personally, it blew me away. I was not that familiar with the story, and now I can't stop thinking about it, and the movie. Congratulations once more. Thank you so much. The first question is, you formed a 20-year partnership with Luricapia, and a 50-year partnership with Robert D'Niro. Why have you returned to them both so often over the years? And what has stood out to you most about the work on pillars of the flower moon? Well, in the case of Robert D'Niro, we were teenagers together and he's the only one who really knows where it comes from. People I know,

that sort of thing, some of them still alive, he knows them. I know his friends, his old friends. And we had a real testing ground in the 70s, where we tried everything and we found that, you know, we trusted each other. It was all about trust and love, right? It's what it is. And that's a big deal, because very often often if an actor has a lot of power and he had a lot of power at that time, an actor could take over your picture. Studio gets angry

with you. The actor comes in and takes it over. With him, I never felt that. I never felt that. There was a freedom. There was experimenting and also not afraid of anything. It wasn't afraid to do something. I just did it and years later He told me he worked with this kid Leo DiCaprio and little boy and in this boy's life And he said you should work with this kid some time, but he didn't it was just casual But with him aligned something like that a recommendation at that time. I think in the early 90s um It's not casual.

He says it casually, but he rarely said that. You know, really tell me, he really gave recommendations. And so years go by and I'm presented with Leo with gangs in New York, and we work together in gangs. He made gangs possible, actually. He loved other pictures I've made. And he wanted to explore the same territory. And so we developed more of a relationship when we did the aviator.

And there was a kind of towards the end of it, there was a kind of something happening a maturity with him, not quite sure, but we really clicked in certain scenes. And that led to departed, and then that became much closer. You know, that was a project where Bill Monhan and me, other people were writing all the time and recreating that character that he played of Billy. And so during that time, he really found out that even though it's 30 years difference, he has similar sensibilities. He likes pretty much. You know, he'll come to me and he'll say, listen to this record.

It's Louis Jordan. Elephant's Gerald. I grew up with it. He's not bringing me anything. No, but he likes it. That's interesting. Why is he bringing you? He'll call me and say, you know, I had a call. I had a cold and I was looking at criterion films and, you know, I wanted to catch up

in some of these classics and I saw this incredible movie. It's incredible. It's a Japanese picture. It's called Tokyo Story. You ever see it? I said, this is last year. I said, yeah, I mean, it took me a few years to catch up. I couldn't even understand the Ozu style

seeing it for the first time in the early 70s, because very so awesome. Well, it's kind of like, you know, and this guy got it from watching you know, on a big screen in TV. And that's very interesting to me to be open that way to older parts of our culture, newer parts of our culture, of course,

and the curiosity that he has about other people and other cultures. And there's a trust, there's a trust. And even if we can't get it right away, we know we'll come up with something. You know, maybe other people have relationships where they come up with a faster. Well, we don't, we just work it through.

For example, the scene between Leo and Bob and the jail at the end. That scene, ultimately, was finally written. I think a few days before we shot it, working with the two of them and working with Mary Ann and everybody because we had said so much, and it could have gone so many different ways, but what does the picture really need? How much more is there for them to say to each other after all that's happened. You know, and so we went that way. It's really, you know, it's trust, particularly doing the Mulfa Wall Street, by the way. He came up with wonderful

stuff. That was outrageous. And so I pushed him, he pushed me, then I pushed him more than he pushed me. And we suddenly, everything was wild. And it's really quite something. But any had a good energy to on the set. That was also important, very important because in the mornings, I'm not really good. And again, I'm set and then I'd see him and or Jonah Hill or him in Mara, Robi or him and Lily and suddenly they were all like, hey, that's okay. let's work. I mentioned music a moment ago.

Your films have a musicality through your framing, camera movement, sound, silences, where you choose to cut shop. What informs the rhythm of your work and what music were you hearing in the making and execution of this? Well, yeah, the way I like to make pictures for the most part, I've learned, I've learned or not intentionally, but I feel it is like the pacing of music. The boxing scenes and raging bowl alike, the ballet scene and the red shoes, where everything is seen and felt from inside the ring, inside the fighter's head, the way everything is felt

and seen inside the dancer's head, more shares in red shoes. So the covering of the band singing the weight in the last wall, doing in a studio, was very much according to the music, to the different bars of music and how a camera would move, et cetera. So and sometimes I play the music back on the set, in the case of Goodfellas, number times the end of Layla, for example, was played back as we were doing the camera moves.

And so for me, ultimately, a movie is more like I'm trying to get to like a movie being a piece of music. Is that I think I've been trying to, I do think these music films at the same time. I'm trying to get to the pacing and rhythm of something that can be played. You know, for example, I don't know, you play a symphony and you live with it. How many times do I heard the Beethoven's Semit? I don't want to hear it again. No, you play it. Well, I like the third movement. I want to hear the second movement again. No, I mean, you liveo-class, let's say. And so, in a case like this, very often I leave the film as playing on TCM, let's say, I take the sound off, and I just watch, it's living with me. I look with it. And if it's a hitchcock or it's a Ford or, you know,

a newer one, whatever, I'm looking. And I can tell, there's a musical rhythm to the pacing of the camera, the edit. What I mean by the camera is the size of the pacing of the camera, the edit. What I mean by the camera is the size of the people in the frame, the editing and camera movement. You know, I could feel it. And so that's the way I, that's how I exist in a sense. So for me, it's really, really about getting the pace of music.

And that's done very, very carefully on set, but also even more carefully in the editing. That's why this picture is more like somebody point out recently, like a ballerol, where it starts slower and moves slowly and encircles and encircles, and then suddenly gets more intense and more intense and suddenly goes more and more until it explodes. That's great. And so I felt it. I didn't, I couldn't verbalize the explodes that way. And so I felt it. I couldn't verbalize the way I am now, but I felt it in the shoot and in the edit. And a lot of the music that kept pushing me was what Robbie Robinson had put together, particularly that bass note that he was playing when Ernest drops her off for the first time in her

house, Molly's house. She looks at him, she turns, and a little of a sudden you hear, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I said, I wanted something dangerous and fleshy and sexy, but dangerous. And that beat took us all the way through, all the way through. And then I added, like, he sent me some him, and I could picked up music from Harry Smith's anthology of folk music, all the sort of thing. One particular piece

called the Indian War of Woop by Hoyt Ming and his pep steppers was very, very important. Bulldoze Blues by Henry Thomas, which became going up to country by canned heat, all of this. I did, you know, dark as the night, and Blind Willie Johnson, with the flames, oh, CC, Roder, Marraini, and of course, and that, Miller singing, Love Sick Blues, which became the great Love Sick Blues by Hank Williams, later on, but this was the first. So it's in all that's in there, but the drive of the movie is what Robbie put down and we pulled it through that way. Alright, now is promised. A couple of big time guests.

We have Jack Fisk, who is the production designer of Killers the Flower Moon. He's had an amazing career which I'm going to dive into with him, particularly his work on this film, and also casting director Ellen Lewis. How cool is that? A casting director. How do you cast these kinds of movies? And by the way, she's also cast Goodfellas, Casino, the departed, Wolf of Wall Street, and the Irishman. So she's worked with Marty for years. I cannot wait for both of these interviews. I hope you enjoy them as much as I did.

As promised, Killer's The Flower Moon is the best picture of the year and what it tribute not only to Martin Scorsese and all his collaborators, one of whom a pleasure to talk to now on Sinophile. His name is Jack Fisk. He is the legendary production designer who worked on this film. Jack, it's so great to see you. Congratulations on such an achievement. Thank you.

It was nothing but fun to do. It's a challenge. So, first thing I know, I think it's really instructive for our listeners to go, okay, production designer, I get the basic essence are obviously putting together the look of the movie and granting all the materials, but you just start with the mood board, like what's in the mood board? Let's start there. Well, I don't really start with mood boards. I start with character. And in this film, the character I was concerned about

most was Molly. So I needed to figure out where she lived. And none of us knew exactly. The history books didn't have pictures of her house, and that much was written about her until David Grand Road is a beautiful book. So my first research when I came on the film was to find out how Molly and her family were living in 1920, 1919, and then to figure out how the town was set up and what the main income to the town was and what kind of people and shops were there.

So that research compiled literally for months because of COVID I had extra time to do the research. And based on that research, I started to design the film, you know, design her house based on other O's H homes at the time. And the colors, you know, when you normally put in a mood board, I was investigating real locations and finding out what color was this originally. You know, I was looking behind light switches and under moldings and feeling wallpaper back and seeing what was under that. So it became, it was purely investigative because I figured if I knew where it really was,

then we could alter it if it made the story better, but at least we had a starting point. And from there, you end up building this entire area. So did you guys literally build the sets? Was it on O Sage Land? Is it an Oklahoma? Did you have permission? I know you worked with the community.

How did that develop? We worked with the O Sage community. Some of the land that we built on, Molly's house and stuff, was privately owned by a family in OCH County. But we built some things on OCH land. We were given or allowed to shoot in about 40 buildings in Pahasca, which became the main street of our town, representing Fairfax,

and those buildings in that block were pretty bad shape. They were vacant, which was great, because we could take them over. The ones that were most solid, we ended up making sets within inside them. We filled in the gaps, we're building to the fallen down or burned or you know, been destroyed by building buildings that reflected the research we had on Fairfax. So we brought as much of Fairfax and Bajaska into those two boxes we could. One building that was was in pretty good shape was an old appliance store, and that became our pool hall. But it had a drop ceiling, and we tripped that out, had panning on the wall, we took that out, and we had the idea to put a barbershop in the pool hall.

So we, you know, tiled parts of the floor, and we opened up, when we took the ceiling out, this, you know, went up at 14 feet and there was a clear story windows above the picture windows. So it led in so much light. And it was like, when you were in there, you were at an iMac's theater watching the road. And it was great for us because we put so much energy into making the road right, you know, every building and the dirt and the cars and stuff. And you from that set, you could, it became a part of the set. So the set had just expanded to the other side of the road. And it gave you an idea that these people hanging out in the pool,

we're just kind of watching, like in a goldfish bowl, they were watching this town go by. And they would see somebody walking, they know how much money he had or what You know how much time he had to live or how you know his sister who she was or you know they they were right there Skaming the whole time and the pool hall was a perfect place to do it So that became a feature set And it's amazing to like imagine when you're getting these artifacts, for example, let's suppose you get a lamp. You say, okay, it has to be period specific, 1920s, but you mentioned everything begins with character. So do you have to look at a lamp and go, okay, is that the kind of lamp that Ernest Berkhardt and Molly would have?

Like how specific are you in those details? We are specific, you know, because you don't have so many chances to tell the viewing audience about the character. So if you are able to find a lamp that Molly would have liked, just by seeing that lamp, you know more about Molly. And if you don't put too many things in the set, you see more stuff, You know, like as you walk through a room, you might see three or four things. You won't see 20 things. Your mind can't adjust that plus watch the movie.

So I try to keep the dressing down and I put importance in, you know, and Adam Willis who was a set decorator and I worked closely together. So I second film together. You know, we chose stuff that primarily told that work for the character, and then work for the settings to make them, you know, you know, more interesting. All right. It's fun, it's fun thinking about character,

and the same thing about Colt. You know, lately with the after COVID, when the newscasters, you start seeing them in their homes, talking and you start seeing the books they were reading, you start seeing the lamps, the pictures, you learn more about them and they, it was much more interesting to me. I mean, I love studying character.

Well, I can tell like you're somebody who is just such focused on detail. I look at your career is incredible. I mean, the fact you're not only for the Academy Award best production design for two films I adore, particularly PT Anderson's that will be blood and the revenant. So you clearly, Jack, have an affinity or an expertise in period pieces and dealing with this kind of really intense subject matter. I mean, part of why I love colors the far moon is I could see the parallels, but there will be blood and it's about capitalism and greed and all of that and of course the Revenants and wonderful movie as well. So maybe speak to your ability to kind of focus on Westerns and be able to truly kind of nail those period pieces.

Yeah, and I love working outside, you know, you know, some designers their whole careers on a soundstage, you know, and they create stuff on there. But I got started early on days of heaven building that house for Terry out in the planes of Alberta, Canada. And I just loved it. I love being outside. I love dealing with the weather. I like being able to shoot the set from 360 degrees. So you can always like put the sun where you like it, that you can go in and out and you're you're in the real world And I think it's you know helpful for actors The more real you can make something it helps them with their character and it's helpful for the directors And then I work with the cinematographers trying to put bigger windows in and and oriented

Tating the set so we get you know beautiful backlight And that we have some depth in the vistas, you know that we don't We're not always having to put up blue screen or paint in the background so that they're really those wonderful backgrounds And that's what we found in Oklahoma There's one you know, it's a great American prairie and it's just not seen enough in films You know, it's a great American prairie, and it's just not seen enough in films. In Oklahoma, in Pahasca is a tall grass prairie, which is beautiful, and they've reestablished Buffalo

on that, and you will go out there and you don't know what year it is. You know, it could be 1800s, it could be 1900s, it could be today, but it's timeless. And always in films, I like to not pinpoint a year so much, but to have it timeless and it has to do with the place in the year that you might recognize this town as Fairfax, but it might be any town in the United States, you know, at the time. And it could be 19, you know, 20, but it could be 19, 15, or it could be 19, 10.

You know, the only thing that gives it away are the automobiles. They keep, they're like a flock. But I try to mix them up and put some older ones in there. I you've worked with so many great directors and I do want to ask what Terence Maliki designed all of his first eight movies. You've worked with David Lynch. directors and I do want to ask what turns Maliki designed all of his first eight movies You've worked at David Lynch. I mentioned PT Anderson Alejandro Gonzalez in e2, but To work with Scorsese. I mean, I think he's America's greatest living director. What was that experience like? It was It was really one of the highlights of my experience in working on films

Like I said when I I may I said, when I first met with Marty, it was over his zoom because of COVID was raging across the country. And then we started a communications through zoom and letters, emails and letters with photos. And I would send them my ideas, a research and stuff as we went and he was so passionate about the film about telling those stories and he was so

embraced ideas. If you presented him with a factual reasoning or logical reasoning, he, you know, he accepted that. I remember when I first told him about Molly's house, I said, it wasn't a mansion. It was a small house. Any thought for a second? He said, you mean I will never get to see her come down the staircase. And I know because Marty referenced his films all the time, was gone with the wind and a great red staircase. But it was sort of sweet. You know, he let it go and it was more important for him to get everything right. But I think a lot of

misconceptions about the Osage came from the press and urban legends and people retelling stories. But what we tried to do was shift it back to the way it most likely was in the 1920s. Like you said, it's so collaborative because you're working with Rodrigo Prieto, the cinematography, you're working with the set decorator, you're working with all these different pieces. And imagine a little bit with the actors as well. So what kind of interactions did you have with the likes of Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro and the League of Latsdom? Well, you know, I work with Leo on Revenant. So when he first came to Oklahoma, you know, I think he may have been there before,

but when he first came under my watch, I took them around to the locations and sets and I just see actors, they get information, they click it into the character. The characters being involved in their brain and they just, they just lap up any kind of information. So you want to feed them research, you want to tell them more about locations, more about other people at that time. And I think that they relied a lot on the Osage input too, you know, for customs.

You notice that, I mean, Robert De Niro, I think spoke fluent Osage by the end of the film. And Leo was rattling off lines in Osage and I think the the the the the teacher that was teaching them all the language said that Lily reminded her grandmother the way she talked. So, you know, the actors do so much on themselves and I think they appreciate once they trust you, they know what you're stuff you're putting into the set is real or is, you know, is thought about through their character. They just absorb it and it becomes a part of their performance. I mean, that's the ideal thing that I think we do

in building a world is we build a world that reflects their character and tells us more about their character. How hands on are you? Like if you see carpenters and they're like, you know, putting a table together, you know, not like that, you're gonna hand with a nail like this when you get right in there.

I do, I do get in there. When I was in Oklahoma, oh, this is one of the bigger films I've worked on. I had a car full of battery operated tools. And I can't help it. One day I went to, they were putting up the footings for Hale's house, and it was just going to slow. I got in there and just worked with him, and it's exhilarating, because I kind of approach building these worlds like sculpture, and you don't want to just sit back and watch, you want to become a part of it. It comes over the old days of, let's put on a show with Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland. You know, you, you, you want to get it there and, and, and build something. The,

I remember in the first film I did with Terence Malik, Badlands, Martin Sheen was picking up cable and carrying it to the next set, you know, my favorite way to work is in everybody meets and they're making a film and there's no division of you can do this and you can do that. So I'm continually getting in trouble for, you know, crossing the line. But I speak a lot so much that I don't care. No, I love it. I can work with Daniel Loupé on the master. And we were going to shoot in Hawaii. And I remember I was going to a plane he called me,

said, look, I've hired somebody in every department so you can do whatever you want. You know, because that's when the unions get upset is if you're doing something and putting someone out of work, but he said, I've ranged it. You can do it. You want. All right.

Time for last one again, legend, Derek, all those movies with Ty. No, they just told me one more. I said, I can go for a jack of their hour. Badlands, days ahead in the thin red line, the tree of life. But I do have to ask, because you mentioned the master and there will be blood. I've just got to ask, can you give me your best Daniel DeLua story? Because I just, I need something of him as Daniel planned you, whatever you got or PT Anderson something on that set because I just adore that movie. Just the John Houston accent. Whatever you got. Oh my goodness. Well, you know, Daniel DeLewis,

he important for him is the clothing, you know, finding the hat for playing view and all this. And he asked us if we could build he, they rented a little house where he said, can you build a room in the backyard with all the furnishings from the period? I mean, nothing that's, so he could go in that room and get lost in the period. Wow. And he said that when he was working on gangs in New York, it was so alarming to him because he would be shooting in the back lot in Rome at Chinatisha and he would go outside and be in Rome You know, but he was he wanted to be in New York in 1900 New York and and it blew his mind so

he takes what I love to Extreme he wants to he wants to get lost in that period And and you. And every little piece of clothing, every notch on his belt, everything informs his character. And that's why he's so great. Yeah, in talking to you,

I just keep thinking of the expression, the devils and the details. And it's in those details, that you get greatness and masterpieces that you've worked on, like Norway Blood and this latest one one killers of the flower moon. Jack Fist production designer Jack I can't think enough this is a real honor. I love talking to you and I'm glad you like the film.

But we talked to Jack Fist the production designer now it's a bringing the casting director Ellen Lewis of killersers of the Flower Moon. It's nothing short of the best picture of the year. And Ellen is somebody who is so critical to Martin Scorsese's success. If you look at her resume, good fellows, Casino, the Departed of Wolf of Wall Street, the Irishman, and addition to many other great films along the years, you can imagine the impact she has had on his movies and what a pleasure bringing Ellen right now. Ellen, congrats.

Great to see you. What a wonderful achievement. Thank you so much. I'm so pleased to be here. Thank you, Ed. Thank you. So this film took a while. Ellen Marty is right in the script of their growth.

And of course, Leo is going to play the FBI agent. They go, now you know, we don't want to tell them the white savior. Tell us reshape this. Leo calls David Graham. Who I just had on the podcast, David goes, because anything but planet Ernest, okay, sounds good. Let's reshape the entire thing. I like I just had on the podcast David goes because anything about planet earnest. Okay, sounds good. Let's reshape the entire thing. And I like it thinking of imagine L.O. Lewis going all right, we're going to start

shooting here. Let's start casting here. No wait, actually, we're going to scrap this for two years and we've got COVID. So take me through it. When did you start casting the picture? I started casting. I started working on it in 2018. I contacted Renee Haines, who I had met

on Godless, Netflix, Limited Series. I had done that Scott Frank directed and she had done the indigenous casting in that. So I knew I had already read David Grant's book, thought it was amazing. So I knew that I needed good support in that part of the casting. Renee started getting me films made by Indigenous filmmakers or starring Indigenous actors that I had never seen before. And we then, so that's as early as 2018, but in 2019,

So that's as early as 2018, but in 2019, with already our production had developed a strong relationship with the OZH Nation, Renee, as well as our production, set up an open call, meaning that we put out flyers and then anybody's interested can attend. And we did this prior to Thanksgiving 2019. We did three days in Cahasca, two days in Oklahoma City, and two days in Tulsa. There was a total of 2,500 Indigenous actors or humans, actually, not necessarily actors who came. And from that, Renee was walking the crowd and looking at faces and looking at people and anyone that she thought could be right for us.

She sent to another room and they were given a small scene and then I was in another room with my associate Kate Sprance and her associate Elise and we read people and we read people all throughout those days. It was very wonderful to be in the community. The turnout was so incredible. And people were so enthusiastic and patient because it was a lot of people to consider and be seen. And from that, most of those faces you see up on the screen. And Lily Gladstone is such a revelation in the movie.

I imagine, you know, Bob and Leo and, you know, principal actors obviously they're going to be cast and Marty's taking care of that. But someone like Lily Gladstone, I believe you discover how did you do it? I didn't discover. I think Lily's been acting Renee again was giving me films to look at with different actresses and she brought up Lily and I had seen a certain woman the Kelly Wryker film and I knew that Marty was a big Kelly Wryker fan and when I had seen the film and I watched it again, and you know, you don't wanna feel too confident, but because we were right in the beginning

of seeing people, but I felt confident enough that late 2019, Marty said, you know, Molly, we really have to, and I said, you know, I think we're going to be okay. And we were. And so obviously we went through a process with that. And then we zoom red with Marty, with Lily, and then we zoom red with Leah, with Lily. And yeah, there we have, I mean, a magnificent actress. We zoom red with Leah with Lily and yeah

There we have I mean a magnificent actress who adds Such depth and hard and soul and stillness and Love to this very tragic story Yeah, I've been telling people I said you knew you walk out of there and in de caprio's argument, I've never been better. And I hope De Niro gets a late career Oscar because he's deserving. But I'm really glad someone feels like a revelation. Like she's just so expressive in the role and she really is like the heart and soul of the movie. Like those eyes and that pain that anguish it's it's remarkable. And it goes to your point just about the authenticity. Like how many rules did you have to end up casting? In the film overall, you know, at a certain point, I stopped counting because I've done,

as you said, I've done a lot of movies for Marty and a lot of them have a lot of roles. You know, the Irishman was a huge cast too, but I think that what's interesting about this, I think Renee Haynes, because she did account. She had, I think there are 42 Indigenous roles in the film, and only 14 of the actors who are in the film had ever acted before. So, you know, we did, we, all the, that open call was vital and had that not happened before the pandemic. I mean, it's so fortuitous that that happened before the pandemic, because we would not have been able to see the community in that way. And I always wonder, you know, I have friends who are actors and it's funny, they try to

befriend the casting director. I can just imagine that a people you've seen, Ellen, please, I'll do anything for Scorsese, you know, my hero, whatever I can do. What is it like when you're casting? Do you ever develop a, I want to say, I have soft spot for an actor, but go, you know what, I really think they're right for this. And then maybe audition doesn't go well. Would you ever go to Marty and go, listen, give him or her another audition or go look at

this work that they've done, bring them back another time or would you not get that involved? You know, I think that first of all, every film that I do, no matter who the director is, it's another world that you're creating. And obviously, in this, this, this world was very specific, we were given fantastic, historical, film to look at, we had footage from the rotary club and we had home movies of the O-Sage. So what you're trying to do obviously is it's so vital who the actors are, who the faces are. And we are the first people really on a film, maybe locations in some, but casting is

so vital. And you, I start just to try to see the world through his eyes. And it's very difficult to be an actor. It's a career that is filled with rejection. And you know, only one person is going to get the role. So I just tried to make that audition process as kind of warm and welcoming as possible. If I really believe in someone and I feel that they didn't do the right reading, I'll read them again. But Marty also, when we do read with people together, I'm very sensitive to the actor. And you know, he really understands actors probably better than anybody.

And it's just a joy to bring somebody damn. And of course, people are going to be nervous, but I've talked to them and I've explained to them what the process will be and how great he is. And I try to make it as comfortable as I can for the actors. I can tell you have a nice instinct to you that you can tell someone's hyperventilating. You go, it's okay, take a deep breath.

He's just another guy, he's just Marty, it's okay. And I'm excited too, I let them know. It's like, I'm excited every time too. And a little nervous. So, you know, I mean, you're more nervous, but you should just know, I'm really excited. And he's really excited to be here. So. How does he punctuate things when he's really excited about them? You know, we just know. He just knows when it's right.

He's extremely decisive. I have gone through, you know, my project is to open the door very wide and then I really narrowed down the choices, which is how I was taught. The casting has from Julia Taylor for Mary and Dowerty to Julia Taylor, that that is how we do our job. I try not to overwhelm the director. And yet, obviously it is about what is their vision? And overall, we've done pretty well over these many years. Yeah, I did more than pretty well. The batting averages high.

Are you on set, Ellen, during the filming of the movie? Never. I never go over the set. I don't like going into the set. I like for, that doesn't mean that always, sometimes when these cans are very large. I might have to see Marty a little bit through production, but generally outpace time or zoom with him. But for the most part, I feel that it's very important that casting be finished by the time he is shooting so that this is not something he needs to be thinking about. His cast is taking care of and then he is very aware of the fact that I am paying attention through all of the shooting. I'm in constant touch with our AD department and our producer because dates can shift.

And so I'm just really keeping up on things so that the cast is flowing smoothly. But I don't really like the set. So I really love what I do in my pre-production one-on-one time with the actors and then with the director. We're talking about Alan Lewis, legendary cast and director. Killers of the Flower. When you ball go to go see it, it's my favorite movie the year so far.

Alan, how well do other cast and directors know each other? Do you ever say to someone, I'm trying to cast this and you get, you know what? I've got the perfect actor for a call this guy. You know, as I said, my first thought on reading killers of the plower moon was to call Renee Hayes, who specializes in indigenous casting. This is what she has done throughout her career. And then she and I are collaborating. So many of my closest friends are casting directors, Jeannie McCarthy, Vicki Thomas, Ellen Cheney with Juliette, or my mentor, still one of my dearest friends, Laura Rose and Paul. And I think one of the reasons is because

I think the casting actually, I think people don't really understand what our job is. people don't really understand what our job is. And I think many times people think, oh, I can think of actors. And so they think that kind of that's what the job is. But we all obviously know that we do know what the job is and how challenging it can be. And so we're a very supportive community. I feel really proud to be part of the casting community. It really is an extraordinary community, as you said. The one question I always have is, how is there no Oscar for casting directors? It's such a vital process.

Marty himself has said you know this. He said, 90% of movies is the casting. How can I get an Oscar for casting? Anna, I don't know what to tell you. I mean, to say that it's wrong is an understatement. Our craft is equally as important as every craft that gets nominated. I understand, you know, the writer, the cinnamon dog refer,

the editor, I just don't understand, you know, make-up hair, cob stows, sound. It's a terrible oversight, I feel, and hopefully they will correct that at some point. I mean, we have so many different categories, and there's so many worthy of recognition. It's honestly astonishing to me that a casting director can't also be mentioned. I mean, yeah, all those crafts deserve deserve an Oscar, but absolutely casting deserves an Oscar. There's one actor I wanted to focus on just because I rewatched the Irishman for the fourth time. I saw three times in theaters. I saw the New York Film Festival when Marty was there, De Niro, Paschipuccino, and then I watched it the next day I took

my wife and then I started getting in theaters. And then I had to rewatch it a couple weeks ago. And I said, the guy got to ask you about once you were able to kindly come through and give us a few minutes because I saw him in close the fire when I said, oh my god, I love this guy. And it's the guy who plays Sally Bugs. Lewis can sell me. It's Lewis. Yeah. Totally about Lewis. This guy is great. I know. You know, I had not been as familiar with Lewis's work prior to when he came in and auditioned for the Irishman. And the minute that he read, I remember that I had to rush out to an appointment and I am like, you are amazing.

I am so, so happy to meet you and to hear this reading and you know I know we will be crossing paths again soon and that I think that Lewis is a brilliant brilliant actor and I'd think to show how he goes from the Irishman fluidly into killers of the Flower Moon and this period, I think he is chilling, he gives chilling performances actually in both films. I mean they are, he's the warmest guy in the world. So, but he does seem to play a kind of renegade kind of fellow in both of the films. That whole scene in the Irishman where he's talking about the fish prior to Jimmy being exited is incredibly well done. It is and it's so funny and horrible as they're going to shoot Jimmy Hoffa that this is the conversation that's going on in the car

and how funny it is. But, you know, I'm also so proud that Jesse Plemons as Tom White is in the film. You know, I think he is an actor. He is as a pure an actor as I can imagine. I don't think he hits a false note. There's nothing that he does or says ever that I don't believe. And so I'm so proud that also the Jesse is in the film. But I'm glad that you're bringing up Lewis. Cause I thought about it last night at the LA premiere. It's just like Lewis is so brilliant. He's so funny and horrifying and horrible all of a sudden and like he's perfect that's the perfect kind of actor for Marty which is a very dangerous but funny actor. Yeah I was like I I've been out that that face is so unique and just a sensibility and you're right I was like I could see him in any role and I but she's the fact of telling such a warm guy is so funny to me,

I'm like, I could totally see that. I want to go back to Goodfell as if I may, because the other day somebody had this terrible hair and someone goes, I look like Mori, and of course, you're the reference, Mori's Wigs never come off, which is actor Chuck Lo. Got a clue. Of that entire cast, like again, it's remarkable,

the Stenero and the now late Raleota and Joe Pesci, etc.. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Robert De Niro, or Al Pacino, or in. They know a lot of people. And so it's always kind of fascinating who they want you to meet and who those people are and what they do. I'm both tied to the law. You never quite know where they're coming from. Did they train at the actor studio very possibly? Were they

landlord and down in Tribeca very possibly? So they actually got close. You mentioned, DeDero. Of course, you worked with them. Good fellow is Casino, the Irishman, and now this one, I saw there was a great piece in CBS this morning and with deCaprio is discussing, he says, you know, Marty's going to be a short-hame with Bob, right? He goes, you kind of just kind of look to them, kind of crinkles his nose, coming to the Zika. And then they ask Marty, what's your relationship with Leo?

He goes, long-hand. And he gives that great Marty laugh. And then Leo's like, oh, long conversations, long things, long things. Give me a straight first of a dinear. Does he also have that short-hame with you? Kind of gives you, like, Ellen, I like this actor. I don't like him. Does he do the same thing?

You know, the way that I'm working for the most part is skilled very directly with Marty. Right. So I am of course what I mean I think Bob's performance I mean I think Bob obviously is one of the greatest living actors throughout the history of film. I think that killers of the flower moon is one of his greatest performances ever. But I'm really, my dialogue is with Marty. So, you know, I respect every single thing about Robert De Niro and I'm always happy to meet anyone that he wants me to meet. But

and I'm always happy to meet anyone that he wants me to meet. But I have to say that the long hand in the short hand comment really made me laugh too. Because you could totally see it, right? Like like it's like when someone said, oh, uh, Dineros who recommended to Captain Marty, they go, what do you say? Marty goes, well, Bob doesn't talk much. He just, he just said, Leo's pretty good. You should work with him one day. That's it. No, I mean, I have to say that I have a shorthand with Barney too. So it just, you know, it resonated the state and resonated with me. And I just think that anyone who is able to work in any capacity

with Martin Scorsese is truly blessed because he's, you know, he's so inspiring, he's so enthusiastic, so from casting good fellas to casting killers of the flower mood, his enthusiasm about every project, it's as if we're doing this for the first time. And it was how I approached my job is if I'm doing this for the first time. We might have some familiar faces, of course, there are people that I know that Marty really responds to and wants to work with the Venetian Thrilling to get to meet new people. And something else I want to say because I'm just trucked by it so much. You read a script, you know I work on the movie in the beginning of the film but there's no way that I can ever imagine what it is that he is going to create in the cinematic language that he alone speaks. And I find it overwhelming and moving every day. A couple more here that I'll know some of the later go. I always think just the cast again, so-called minor characters, there's no minor characters, but good fellows,

like that great sequence, you know, Jimmy two times, gonna go get the papers, you know, how do you cast that guy? Who is the guy in casino in the know, Jimmy, two times, gonna go get the papers. You know, how do you cast that guy? Who is the guy in Casino and the vice? Like, I mean, there's, there must be so many different roles that these people are so critical to saying. Like even, think about a guy in a vice, but when Joe Peksi's put me,

he got Charlie T, because of Charlie, that actor's gonna be critical. That's a memorable scene. Yeah, I actually have to say, and it's good to have more for my training when I worked for Juliet Taylor for eight and a half years You know she would be kind of more concentrated on the leads. I love casting the day players

I love casting the smallest roles. I think that this is what gives I think that this is what gives texture and depth to a movie. Are those faces? Are the believability of those small roles? You know, I love it in the beginning of killers, the man who's selling the car, the man who's making the photographs. I mean, I love casting those roles. And then, you know, what you have to be careful of are the faces.

So you want to make sure that, you know, the faces have a kind of a different feeling and that people are going to be able to differentiate. But I love that you're bringing up. I mean, I do love. I was in Las Vegas for about three months, casting casino, and you know, kind of word went out that we were there and people were just filing through. The man who throws up the chip when Sharon Stone and the opening up.

The must-tash in the glasses, yeah. Man worked in a mall hall. I mean, and he, those were his clothes and his glasses. I remember saying to wardrobe, I don't think you're going to have to do anything with this guy. I think he's ready to go. All right. One more for you. The guy absolutely loved, and I had him on this podcast. I was with a friend of mine who's a terrific actor. We're watching. I go, you know, I love the scene in the Irishman with Pacino and Stephen Graham and Danero and Stephen Graham's late.

They get into it. I go, you know, the guy I love is that guy, Patrick Gallo. I go, that guy's fantastic. My buddy goes, I'm going to go, I'm DB and I go, it's Galen, talk to you information, you're going to be on the podcast. So, sure enough, hit him up, hit him on, Ellen, he was so amazing. I said, I just want to, like, you're with Pacino and Danero and Stephen Graham. And I'm with you. I find it fast thing. Who's the fourth guy? Like, how is he failing the role? And he was like, you don't understand. I'm with you, like I find it fast thing, who's the fourth guy? Like how is he failing the role? And he was like, you don't understand. Like I'm pinching myself and Bob and I both

couldn't be more gracious. We do take after take, Marty So generous, Marty treats me the same way he treats them. I swear to God, if I have an idea, if I have the thought, let's go for it. If I have an ad libous grade, he goes, that's the kindest compliment I can make is that they really treat this an equal,

which is extraordinary to me. Right, now I think that the collaboration is, you know, on everybody's part. And it does, it sounds like Emma said, I know Marty talks to his actors, listens to his actors, and look, I think that there can be times where it can be intimidating. I have this happen a couple of times on a film. And it is intimidating and an actor can freeze. But I think that Marty's the kind of guy and I think if you're to have seen with Bob DeNiro,

he wants you to be comfortable. And all of those actors, with Bob DeNiro, he wants you to be comfortable. And you know, all of those actors, Al's an actor's actor, Stephen Graham is a brilliant actor that we can't engage in New York and obviously then can't support what campfire and in the Irishman. So, you know, and he's just like the warmest, greatest guy who can play a pretty scary character. But it's interesting. I mean, I love that you pay attention to those false roles because that is what I really

love doing. This was such an education. Ellen Lewis, the outstanding casting director, Goodfell's casino, know, the department will for Wall Street Irishman, many, many more. I just wanted to focus obviously on these Scorsese movies and killers of the flower moon, which is coming out. You got to go see it. It's amazing. Ellen, this was, I like it said, such an education, such a pleasure. And I'll give a kidney just to do a read through in a Scorsese movie, whatever you need. I'm not looking. I might want to try it at some point.

So, you know, you never know. You could get that call. You're the best. Thanks so much, Ellen Thanks, bye. All right. Take care All right, kill us the flower moon. I hope you guys enjoyed it. I hope you all go see the movie I hope it's a roaring success for apple and all those kind people. I'm so lucky I got to be able to watch the film. I'm lucky to have Son of a File, lucky to have Chris Coney with me and the entire team here at Son of a File.

Again, go to Apple Podcast, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks once again to Jack Fisk, the production designer, and Alan Lewis, the casting director, Killers of Fire, Moon. I'll take a deep breath. I hope you all see it once. I'm gonna go see it a second time, and I'll see you all at once. I'm going to go see it a second time, and I'll see you at the movies.