The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - DLS Classic: Only Children

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

Join us as we relive some of our best hours of 2023 -- Do the NFL or NBA combines actually measure your in-game athleticism? We discuss small QBs and "The Mina Test" before Amin describes how his front office used its combine scouting to its advantage. Then, Evan Drellich wrote the definitive book on the Houston Astros cheating scandal, "Winning Fixes Everything: How Baseball's Brightest Minds Created Sports' Biggest Mess," and he joins us to discuss how the Astros organization went from innovative masterminds to cheaters. Originally published March, 1, 2023. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to Giraffe King's Network. This is the Dunluba Tarshou with the Stugat's Podcast. It's very rare, Roy, that the entire room clearly and obviously turns on you in a way that's howling and accusatory and that you're being punished by this, and you're also smiling through it, which is the part that I'm not used to you smiling in any form around here. That's the part that I tend to follow. If there's a giant smile on Roy's face, it's like the rare light that people search for in religion to go find. Wait a minute, the light has even reached Roy. No, no, no,

it's a smile of why is this happening? Why are you people doing this to me? It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, I mean, what is Dan being you? Maybe you are. What they accuse you of being, I hate people. Well, this is not making things any better. All people. This is not discriminatory. That's right. It's equality.

All of humanity, you just like animals. Yeah, I hate people equally. I have no Roy for a long time now, and I can verify and I will back him up. He hates people. I think the only person he likes is Bill Lawrence to be honest with you He's a good man. I enjoy that man. I mean once a week Royce like can we get Bill Lawrence on it's like I don't want to tell us about again. Jesus Trinking new season coming out of Ted last year. Hey, hey, a lot of theories about the trailer. Who's very excited?

Fat Albert what just happened there with hey A lot of theories about the trailer who's very excited about Albert. What just happened there with hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey great at meetings, I would say. And you guys were howling and I would say distracted from whatever it is that was being talked about because something was happening on Stugots' phone that both of you were shouting about to each other interrupting whatever it is that we were meeting about. What was happening on Stugots' phone? Well, so we were in a meeting before the show just you know shooting the shit as they say and we're kind of talking about what we're gonna do today and then Lewis notice something on stugots his phone and then you like elbowed me and he's like why does he have that on his phone and I looked at it I was like that's odd and then just

side and then we were kind of talking about like stugots had a contact open on his phone and he was talking and and participating somewhat in the meeting and also just talking to Whiti whoever was next to him and he's just kind of swinging his his phone around lackadaisically with his fingers there to a point where it's like he's going to accidentally hit one of these buttons on his phone buttons on his phone and then what ended up happening is he facetime taut mcshay. I looked at his phone and I saw myself looking back and I'm like, is do gots taking a face of selfie and then I was like, oh no, he's facetimeing Todd McShay in our meeting.

Not by accident. It was by accident. You didn't intend to facetime the time. He's at the combine. I check in with him every morning. I get hand size. I want to see how Bryce Young looks. Todd usually answers.

He was busy this morning. I mean, I only knew a thing we've been doing it for years. I only knew it was combined week because I went on Instagram the other night and was looking through the stories. And there are like five in a row of shrimp cocktail from that stupid steakhouse in any of them. I was like, yes, it's the only place. Most predictable media core in the world just going to get shrimp cocktail the white why isn't there a second restaurant in Indianapolis it's saying how Moses it's it's it's host to the combine they must have such a giant week this week and it's to measure that oh no Bryce Young is 5 10 and a half what are we gonna do mean a really screwed him like really screwed him the

picture that they put up next to each other, that everyone's like, oh, Meena's either a giant, or he's not that tall. Should we draft him? And then she had to go, did you guys not see this? Yes. You had to go on like an apology to her, like, no, I was wearing heels that were like really high

that day. That was a strange one. Bryce Jung is at the epicenter, and I mean, can speak to this stuff, because he certainly used to the idea of measuring... Looking small next to a giant person. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha at least 500 degrees coming out. Get started your day now, huh? I mean, it's just, I'm trying to eat bacon over here, man. Don't do this to me. Okay, well, he did it.

I didn't do it. I wish he hadn't. Still gots go sit outside. Why not? Go sit outside. Get out. I just go sit outside. My teammates, I mean, you didn't care about your teammate.

Don't file, really, still gots, you check in on the bowel movements of a mean regularly because you care about your teammate. How was the poop is something you were trying to contribute is can't get out. Just get out. It's a regular thing. Just get out. Just like me and McShay.

Yeah, just like you and Meshay, get out. Thank you. How was the poop? Is not helpful around here. I wanted to bring in a mean in his expertise on measuring talent and you, how was the poop? I will report that from what I hear, it was a two-fire emoji. Bryce, you go sit with him.

You go sit with him. Are you wanting to anyway? You've been wanting to since you got here. Go make a God bless football while you're out there. I think they have like a whole thing and they talk to each other, they send emojis. Five, 10 and a half is what Bryce Young is measured at. And quarterback

size is now changing, right? It's been changing for a couple of years. And when I hear my quarterback is five 10 and a half, I get scared. Well, so there was the trend that you had the number one picks of Baker Mayfield and of Kyler Murray. And that was the NFL signaling. We're no longer doing the like, you got to be six foot six in a good pocket pass or we're going to do this differently. But then Russell Wilson's career went off a cliff. Kyler Murray basically had the yips in a playoff game and it turned out the Baker Mayfield was bad.

And so we might be back to square one and some teams might want someone like Will Levis who has a more traditional quarterback body as opposed to Bryce Young who's five, ten and a half. So this is one of my favorite things in the 2003 NBA draft, right? One with LeBron, Carmelo Anthony, Duane Wade, Arco. Darko, Chris Bosch. Do you know who tested as either the best or second best athlete in their draft? Luke Jackson. You guys remember Luke Jackson?

I do. Luke Jackson played for Oregon. He played with Luke Riddnauer. He's the two Luke two livens or whatever, two Luke crew or whatever they call him, right? And Luke Jackson, when you put him in a combine scenario, all the things that they tested for, he was an incredible athlete. There was one simple problem. When you put a basketball in his hands and put them on the court, he wasn't a good athlete. So the combine does not test how athletic you are in a game. It tests how athletic you are in a combine setting. In the same way that standardized tests, don't test how smart you are.

They test how good you are at taking standardized tests. So that's the big issue, is you look at a guy, and you can have all of these desirable measurements, and then you put him in a game and it doesn't matter. Or the opposite, you look at a guy, and his measurements aren't that great, but you put him in a game and he's incredible. Tom Brady, I mean, we've

seen the pictures of him at the Combine. That does not seem too much. It's enough. I'm just a little chubby at the combine. But think about that, Woody. Like, think about the message. The message is this was this dude trying to be in the best shape of his life, right? When the Combine, whatever shape you always show up at the Combine, that's not who you really are. That's you've been working out for eight weeks or whatever, with a trainer, with a dietitian, and all this stuff. And then you show up and you look like that.

What do you look like six weeks earlier? It was my question. Cause this was him getting into shape for it. Like physical condition in Tom Brady. But I mean, isn't all this stuff that we're talking about, like the short quarterback was in and now it's back out and we're back to Josh Allen, so we're freak out. Like we don't know what we're talking about, like the short quarterback was in, and now it's back out, and we're back to Josh Allen time.

So we're freak out. Like, we don't know what we're doing. And so it's just, they're trends, and then they go, and then they come, and then they go, and then they come, and then in basketball, it's the same thing. It's just sometimes we pick great athletes, and sometimes we're going off the stats

of what you did in college. Because the reality is it has nothing, there's not a, we want to heuristic, right? We want like a stencil that we can look through, and like, oh yeah he's good. Oh, no, that guy's kind of obscured. He's not good. And the reality is the only constant is, is he a great player? That's the constant, right? What is what is Josh Allen and Russell Wilson and Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes and and arrives all having common? They're great quarterbacks. Yeah, but none of them are five ten and a half. What they also have in common though is that none of them are five ten and a half.

What they also have is these short but not five ten and a half like five like short Short standing next to Meena who is slight. I do think that five ten and a half the official measurement because they went out of their way to make it he's a six footer. That should be a new combine measurement. How tall do you look next to me? I like that. Right. Right. When they take the picture, it's like me and I can you stand right to the left of

them right there. No, no, you're not good enough kid. Get out of here. Go ahead join the exeple. But Dan, if he can play, he can play. Right. Understood. But five ten and a half is something that when they're eating those shrimp cocktail at the scouting combine, they're all worried about five, ten and a half at my quarterback, presenting elbows, right? Isn't that the name of the cast?

Yeah, also, uh, uh, uh, Russell Wilson came in at five, eleven, five, five, five, two, five, five, eleven at the combine for Russell Wilson. So Wilson. So, so it's not far away. Right. So, so and by the way, it's like, even we look at Kyler Murray. Is Kyler Murray, was he disappointing this year because he was too small? If it was 6-3, he would be like, oh, he would have been killing. No, it's stuff that has nothing to do with his side. I mean, like, there are baddened passes. There are issues with the size. I also think that there's a longevity question now because like like Russell Wilson just fell off a cliff at 31. Sure.

And you're going, I mean, a lot of most franchise quarterbacks go to 37 38. How tall was Dubriz? Dubriz, you six feet or six, but he was also, but he also fell in the draft because he was too short. So he was too short. And the conversation that I wanted to have around this, because it's actually something that's happening in circles as the information guy say, no, the bears aren't going to trade the pick.

Justin Fields, I worry about his durability at the position because of how he plays. I can't because of how he plays. They have the worst offensive line in football. But one of the worst. But that forces him to run. That's what Dan said. It doesn't just force him to. That doesn't mean that it's because he how he plays.

The reason I worry is that he has to play a certain. Right. But he's playing more physical. Hold on. You're best to keep advantage of his skill set by running him 16 times a game. He is playing the most physical style of football, like a running back and his lower body weighs about what all of Bryce young ways.

Bryce young is slight compared to Justin Fields. I'm not even talking about Justin's. He's a scouting measurement. I'm talking about what that. Jaylen Hertz has one of the best squats in the league because all of a sudden one of the things they're valuing is quarterbacks who have sturdy, sturdy lower bodies because they can take more of a beating. Justin Fields is very strong. He's a great shape. Billionized that next to him at the

Super Bowl. Surprisingly big. But I think a means point. It's a good one. It's a fair one. That great quarterbacks come in all different shapes and sizes. If you could play, you can play like the fact that we're still doing five, 10 and a half for the hand size Cody Pickett was fine. The time he was Kenny, that's a fine. Oh, I'm sorry. Kenny Pickett. play like the fact that we're still doing five ten and a half for the hand size Cody Pickett was fine. The time he was. Kenny, that's a fine. Oh, I'm sorry.

Kenny Pickett. That is a fine. You know, he was fine in the times that he that he had opportunities. He was a small head. Lamar, pretty good. He was just okay. He was fine. I know, but then it's not to say that I don't can't be good because he's five ten and

a half. It's absurd. Well Lamar Jackson also was another one. People thought was too slight and to he's six one. I know he's a, he got stronger in the front. He did, but it's not like as a rookie. He was like, Oh, he's so overwhelmed by the size of everybody. He's like, look, greatness is so hard to pin the, Roy, you're a hockey guy, right? So Wayne Greski, does he have the profile of great one? Does he have the profile physically of great hockey player? For that sport, yeah, especially back then in the 80s. Yeah, definitely. The whole thing was you small, like he's a tiny guy and he's not like Lemieux and other

guys were more classically chiseled. Well, it's a different role. Mary Lamuse, more of a power for it than Wink Grisky was. Grisky was a playmaker. What about Sid the Kid? I'm on time. I'm here for a new weekly segment. A meme learns the basics about another sport. Hey, man. I mean, a meme goes grasping for another sport.

I'm not, look, it's, hey, here's the reality. Everyone here is a fucking sport. So I mean, I'm an expert in every sport. There is the impersonation, but it's not an impersonation. It's not impersonation. I'm impersonation. It's a voice. Thank you Thank you, thank you, and impersonation. Okay, and all right now you go to the penalty box What is the point about Justin Fields? We are trying to make well, I mean I mean, I mean, you're saying that like, well, the key to fighting good athletes

is figuring out if they're good athletes. No. I'm not saying I'm saying. What they're trying to do with combine measurements and all this stuff is, well, when it is the formula for finding a good quarterback, and it seems pretty clear that the answer is that there isn't one.

And so we're all just kind of guessing. No, but my point is this, right? The two things that seem to be the biggest, right, is the talent, right? Just being able to throw and all that stuff, right? And then the mentality, right? Is this person focused? Is there a good leader that it out, right? The things we're measuring for don't measure for 80% or 90% of that. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to find it's like people who you can't measure someone's heart. Yeah, that's

one way to put us to guys but it's not even we can't measure someone's heart. What's happening is people say, well, if I can measure all these other things, that'll be enough. And it's not, right? It's, oh, his hand size, his height, his weight, how much he squats, all that. None of that stuff is actually relevant, right? The relevance is in the way you play and also how serious you take it. And so we look through all the quarterbacks and that's pretty much the common thread.

It's not a specific size, it's not a specific hand size, it's not a vertical leap. It's none of those things. It's, can he play any serious about this shit? The other thing too that the comment doesn't do or quarterbacks don't do in the comments throw, right? They throw at pro days, they don't throw at the comment. So the one thing I want to do is see if my quarterback can throw a 35-year-old out-round. That's the one thing that those pro days are

designed to showcase correct players skills. Like they also throw the combat and those guys. Like there's a reason why they don't throw the comp because the whole the whole thing they cut off very abrupt. There's that's part of that's part of the game I have back here. So it's all good. Wait till we get to the new studio, right? That's I feel like that's it's a fake carat. They dangle in front of us. What's the new studio? Everything will be great. 2026. Exactly. But so but your point Tony, like watch a guy throw an

out route on pro day, but there's no pressure, right? There's no kind of actual stakes there, right? So you say, well, but he did it in college, but he did it against a certain level competition, get to the NFL. The competition is tougher. It's faster, it's quicker, it's smarter, right? That's where that other intangible stuff about like, does he learn, right? Does he retain information? Does he adapt? And all of those things become even more important. But again, none of those things are getting measured at the combine. But having gone through scouting processes and brought players in for workouts and stuff like that when you were with Phoenix, what's the attempt to even try to figure

out those things? Do you feel like there was ever a moment where you guys hit on that where it's like, oh, we noticed this about a player and it turned out that player was good. So all right. So when we brought guys in and it's different now because now the the move is everyone just goes to these Central combine and do all the all the training all the measurements and stuff But for instance the NBA combine they used to measure bench press right and that was the famous thing was Oh, Durand couldn't even bench press once But we were like at what point in an NBA game? Are you ever doing this motion? You're never doing this right? So our

and then be a game, or you ever doing this motion, you're never doing this, right? So our measure of kind of like upper body strength and stuff was all kind of weird, calisthenic things. So you had your hand spread across two lines and then you have to touch each hand, go like this, a certain number of times in a certain amount of time, right? We had all of these things

and then all that did was tell us how far you were from actualizing your maximum capacity, right? We had all of these things. And then all that did was tell us how far you were from actualizing your maximum capacity, right? So it wasn't, if you scored bad in these things, it doesn't mean like, oh, you're undraftable. It meant more like, oh, wow, there's room for improvement. As opposed to where other parts would come in and did everything so well, it's like, there's nothing we can do physically to help him. He's as physically peaked as he's ever gonna get, right? But in terms of our drills, our drills were all made to mimic kind of decision-making things.

So we're playing three on three, we're gonna go pick and roll, and this is what we're doing. We're sagging on every picking roll. Doesn't matter what happens. I wanna see you run it like that. Then we're saying problem solved the sac. Exactly.

Now we're blitzing. Now you're telling them what to do and then seeing if they can execute it. So it's a lot of stuff to see like, how hard is it for you or how easy is it for you to adapt to different instructions and be able to execute? Those are the things that we looked at.

But ultimately at the end of the day, what you did in the combine combine what you did in a workout Was such a smaller portion of the thing because it didn't you had a resume whether you are one and done or you played three years Whatever we had a resume of you playing from whenever you first came on scene in high school All the way through your whatever your collegiate exploits were we knew what you did We knew how you did. We knew how you did against blitzes, how you did against sags, how you did against hedges and all that stuff.

We knew all that stuff because we watched you, watched you do it. And then on top of that, the biggest part of any scouting operation is intel. Who are you as a person? Because that's the part. Any asshole can watch it on TV and like, oh yeah, he's pretty good. Like we can all do that. But it takes someone going and digging into your past and

coming up with, for instance, a great example, Royce White. Royce White was. You want to get on planes? That was the public thing, right? Anxiety and didn't get on planes. And people focus on, well, how you is he gonna just bust from place to place I Was the guy who did the deep deep dive on on Royce White. I was like the last thing I did and I discovered Well, yeah, he doesn't like it But he pops a pill and he sleeps on like it's not an issue, right?

His anxiety does manifest itself in different ways. The problem is also, he has the behavior of an asshole. So, and he's smart. So he knows how to use his very real condition to his advantage when he doesn't wanna do something. Nobody had this. The sun's had him like 10th on their draft board. I was like, absolutely not.

My thing was like, absolutely not. He's a their draft board. I was like, absolutely not. I, my thing was like, absolutely not. He's a non-draftable because of all these issues. And it's not because of the anxiety. It's not because of his condition. It's because of who he was. And I found that out because I talked to people who weren't on the staff at Iowa State, right? I talked to people from his past and all that.

And I did the deep, the deep dive to find these things. And guess what? Got in that much of a career and it wasn't because he couldn't get on a plane. It was because all of those things coupled with I thought as a player, he was good. He wasn't this, he wasn't LeBron for us to take a chance like that. So that's what the combine and drafting is about. It's not about like all touch that who cares that that's that rarely ever Becomes the make or break on a guy being successful. Well Dion Sanders He spoke your entire penalty by the way. I mean he did talk it was great He talked he talked a lot of feeders I wanted his expertise on these things not how his shit was. It's the reason

that I originally sent you to the penalty box. But can you play the sound of Deon Sanders? This is on Rich Eisen's show. What's wrong, Jessica? I mean, you're just disgusted by all of it, right? It's unnecessary. All of it. Oh, your grossed out. Like, oh, you're stupid. So I gave him that look back. What? That was the bad one. No. No. No.

No, no, no, no. Gone too far. Play Deon Sanders talking to Rich Eisen on how you prototype, how he figures out who to draft or who to recruit at what position. Rebex. Different. We want mother, father, you know, dual parent.

We want that kid to be three, five and up because he got to be smart. Not bad decisions off the field at all because he has to be a leader of men. It's so many different attributes and what we look for. I mean, office alignment. Defense alignment totally opposite.

20 minutes. Seeing a mama, he's trying to get it. He's on free lunch. I mean, I'm talking about just trying to make it, he trying to rescue mama. Like mama barely made the flight. He's talking about hunger, how you measure hunger.

He's doing some stereotyping by position. I've often heard the offensive line in the guy that you want at offensive line is the guy who can repair the refrigerator. The guy you want on defensive line is the guy who could either destroy it or eat it. That this is something that is said through football channels, but he and Barry. But now now he is talking. Thank you, Stagots. Now he's talking about whether, what kind of patterning or upbringing a kid has. And from there, you're not far from Jeff Ireland feeling comfortable asking Des Bryant, whether his mother's a prostitute or not.

Here's my favorite part. If there was an amazing quarterback prospect who came from a single parent household, Diaz not saying, no, no, not for me. You're going to come back with mom and dad get back together. We're at a three four. Right? Like that, that's, that, that's the, that's the beauty of any sort of these heuristics, right?

Is that you can say all that until someone comes and fits all the criteria that actually matters. Can he play and is he serious about this shit? That's what matters. Single parent double parent, no, no, that matters. No, that matters. I remember one time I tried to do like a study. I like I said, every great player,

or almost all the great players in NBA history, all had siblings. Why? What does that mean? Right? LeBron is outlier than that. He's like an only child and that that doesn't happen. Great players who are only children almost never happened. You think of every, they just name players right now. Name them. Steph Curry has siblings. Kobe had siblings. Shaq has siblings. Right. Jordan had siblings. Magic had siblings. Like like bird siblings like the only child thing does not exist in our sport What does that mean? I and then I realized it doesn't matter

It's not because they had siblings is because they could play you were trying to measure it though You thought the only child might be more selfish. I don't know. I was I just it was just something I realized Wait a second. Why is it all the great players have siblings? Why we're all the great only children. Well, isn't it statistically more likely to have siblings than not in this country? Sure, but it's way, way like that number is skewed in the NBA, right? Where it's even greater.

Is LeBron the only only child in the NBA? No, I'm not saying that i'm just i mean how many i'm now i'm curious i wouldn't go down this rabbit hole with you but how many only children are there i don't i don't figure this out i don't know what i wish none of us had ever seen this rabbit and none of us had seen this hole and none of us had been dragged into it don't don't don't don't don't diminish the point the point isn't only children not only children the point is when you start looking for ridiculous tangential things to explain the actual thing that we all know, he can play and he's serious about this shit. That's all that matters.

Hand size vertical, the siblings, only child, single parent, double, all of that is meaningless. Grant Hill credits his Hall of Fame MBA career to growing up as an only child. There you go. All right, that's two. Jessica would like to know them all. Not I would, honestly, I'm very curious now. But I think the thing Dion saying is more damaging than that because it's like perpetuating stereotypes about children that come from single parent homes.

And it's weird to hear Rich Eisen's producers all laughing along with it and like thinking it's really funny because to me it's just kind of gross. Like I didn't enjoy listening to that at all. It's too simplistic and it doesn't end up mattering no matter how much Dianne thinks he knows about the psychology of football, he's getting players who can really play.

Guys who buy any of the measurements, anybody who was coaching anybody would take all of them, no matter what they're coming from. And also sort of like to Jess's point, I just sort of like, okay, so if I'm a quarterback, I got to change position because my upbringing is the reason why I can't play this position. It's just, it's ridiculous. And honestly, out of the mouth of any other coach, you would just be, it would be met with a lot more skepticism. There's a lot.

And, and be honest about it, if it came out of the mouth of a white coach, it would be treated as racist. It would be treated as questionable beyond, beyond what it is that we're talking about. Korean only child. Three. I don't want to do this the rest of the show. What? I think it's fun. It's not a great rabbit hole.

Only children and at the end of it, we've counted only children and it doesn't mean anything according to a mean to know who the only children are. Exactly. So it's a worth of sex or size. Dia, is there, okay, not saying that it's appropriate, but is there any room for, he was kidding? I don't think he was, was he? It seemed like he had a big laugh on his smile on his face

when he said it. Like, he, I saw the video, I mean, just hear the audio. That's why I always say just kidding after I'm kidding. That's why I know. No room for interpretation. Oh, it's all chasm. If he was kidding, he should have just been like just kidding. I don't doubt that there's a kernel of truth

in that he actually believes that. But I also think him saying it and everyone laughing along is because he's said it in a very jovial, joking way and not like an as an actual or I can just be I've been given permission to laugh by somebody. I think the reason people think he's not kidding is because this is probably what older generations of head coaches and probably some current ones still believe about these types of players and their families. So that's why maybe you give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you don't though.

Like there's certainly harmful stereotypes that head coaches perpetuate constantly in the sport. I don't know if he did. If he said just kidding, I'd be like, oh, okay. No, no, I think you're right. I think he believes it, but also he said it in a very exaggerated way to make light of it. But what was your past all too?

No one suggested he's kidding other than you. No one baddened him. I didn't like to play it again. Play it again. Listen to the tone of his voice. Again, it backs. Different. We want mother, father, you know, dual parent.

We want their kid to be three, five, and up because he got to be smart. Not bad decisions off the field at all because he has to be a leader of men. It's so many different attributes and what we look for. Fizz, I mean, office of lamin, my defense of lamin's totally opposite.

Seeing a mama, he's trying to get it. He's on free lunch. I mean, like, I mean, I'm talking about, You sing a mama. Why? Trying to get it. He's on free lunch. I mean, like, I mean, I'm talking about just trying to make it. He trying to rescue mama. Like, mama barely made the flight. So first of all, you could tell the inflexion in his voice.

The defense line, hold on now. Not if we get, but if what he said about quarterbacks is a little bit like, I don't believe. That's also, but again, my point comes back to this. You think if the number one quarterback in the nation came from a single parent household and said, I'd love to play in Colorado for coach Dion. Dion's like, no, no, not for me. You think he's saying no, right? Like that's, and that's where all of these rule of thumbs fly out the window is

that we're willing to abandon all of them at the sign of the thing that actually matters. Well, you said, okay, well, you say this and you said you realized something and something that I realized that Wittingham realized because, and it wasn't hard to notice it because I've rarely seen Wittingham this enraged. There is popular culture movement now that enrages with him, not unlike the one toward a cashless society enrages me.

I am not wrong about this. You will take my cash. My cash has value everywhere in the world. You will not take that American principle from me. I will not buy your 778 coffee anymore. If you're someone that will not take cash. Take a stand down. There you go.

Winning him says that this movement, and he's going to lose, he's going to lose. This movement of everyone wants to wear sneakers all the time. No one wants to wear dress shoes. No one young wants to dress up for a wedding. A wedding that requires no sneakers. Winningham is here to argue for the day where formal wear is required. Dammit in the name of love. Dan, the dress you is going to come back.

I assure you, I'm looking at the camera right now. The dress you will come back. It will return at some point. But for the moment, we still have formal occasions. There are not many of them. The pandemic is ruined. a lot of them. You go to a business dinner, you see people wearing jeans, you see people wearing dress sneakers,

you see people wearing regular sneakers, a pair of air Jordans. Suffice is now as formal wear. It's not. It is not. When you go to a wedding and the groom says, hey, we're all wearing dress shoes and a bunch of adult men go, I don't know how to get dress shoes.

Can we wear sneakers instead? Get a pair of dress shoes. A nice pair of loafers. Go to a DSW. Doose, where do you get dress shoes? Go to a mall and get a pair of dress shoes. Lads. Like, what do we, like it. Go to a mall and get a pair of dress shoes lads. They sound like footers. What do we, like we're, we have to wear Jordans all the time.

Yes, they're uncomfortable. They're not, they're not perfect for more. They look fantastic. You look sharp. You look presentable. You look like you're ready for a formal occasion. You're ready to love love when you have a pair of dress shoes on. It's part of the wedding experience.

We're waiting him. You are losing. We're losing him. I thought on. Winning him. You were losing. I thought on Instagram recently, four members of our crew revealed to the audience that they were all wearing the same exact Jordans. That is everyone is homogenizing is like, this is what school. It's the only thing that's cool. Put on a different pair of shoes. No, no, no, no. First of all, Chris, I'd like to offer a formal apology. This is all my fault.

Oh, you're gonna alleged that you trend-set it. Well, no, it's because you were the first person who were sneakers on television. No, because in 2015 or 2016, I can't remember whenever I started doing lots of sports center and lots of TV, I said, yeah, I'm not wearing shoes anymore. I'm wearing sneakers. Billy, are you appalled by the number of times that are mean has made everything about him today, including the invention of the wearing of sneakers? I'm not with a suit. I mean, look, I'm not saying I did it for weddings because the Jordan

11s are famously called the tuxedos, the black and white ones. So people are not dress shoes though. They have patent leather. So that makes them dressy. Wow. Tiger woods, by the way. Yeah. Single. What do you do? Single child. Oh, simple. That's the job. Yeah. John John. These are not

bad. They feel Bradley. Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah. Michael Jackson. It's a list of famous only children. Yeah. Michael Jackson, the most famous only child. Michael Jackson. Is this a list of famous only children? Michael Jackson, the most famous only child. We look proud. Michael Jackson.

I believe Michael Jackson. The wide receiver, not the singer. The Dan Levitard show with Stu Gotts is sponsored by Better Help. The holiday season can store a wide range of emotions, and the specific emotions experience can vary from person to person. While many people associate the holidays with feelings of joy, warmth, and togetherness,

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Dan to get it in on the action. Billy, I think I have this right. I think that our next guest here is the authority. You hate the Astros. The Astros have not gotten enough attention for being dirty cheaters, obvious cheaters. They win in the end because they win the title and then a couple years later they win again because they're great. They've been pretty good since they were busted for cheating. And they were good. They were really bad before that. They proved the tanking works because they got rich off of tanking and cheating and

and relich his new book winning fixes everything how baseball brightest minds created sports is biggest mess uh... i've not seen this chronicle this way anywhere he's the one who wrote uh... the original stories a senior writer for the athletic broke the story of the cheating scandal, and then covered the franchise from 2013 to 2016. So I think, Billy, that this man is an American hero for you.

Yeah, I mean, the title, I mean, I'm not a writer, a bit wordy. I feel like you just called the book 30-f***ing cheaters, you know what I mean? That would have suffice. Welcome, by the way. Good morning, guys. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'll keep that in mind for the next book. I'll try to keep it a little tidal, a little more to the point there. So that title was not in consideration? No, no, I don't think Barnes and Noble would have really wanted to display that one with my guess. Well, tell the people through all of your reporting.

And thank you, Evan, for being on with us. The new ground or terrain you're covering in the book on this that people need to know about. This is an undercover story under reported, not covered at all. Very well. So you tell us what did we miss? I think there's a lot of people missed. And the book is really answering a question of how did we get here? It reveals

new details about what happened, the cheating in Houston, some of the cheating other teams were doing. But how do you arrive at this point where you have this massive scandal, you get three managers fired, Hinch Korra Beltron, you have the general manager fired, Luno. And it's not an accident. You know, the Astros in 2019, right before our story comes out, they fired their assistant general manager after he had this drunken outburst in the clubhouse. I think a lot of people remember this because it was right before the World Series, the guy got fired. And so it's not happens, Dan, that all this stuff happens in Houston. There were other scandals along the way. And I had been an Astros beat writer. I was really the first to write about their culture back nine years ago now in 2014. And you know, for a long time, people were like, oh, they're so smart and they're so progressive. How could you ever present

anything critical of them? And, you know, I think 10 years later now, um, people are starting to open their eyes. And I think the book will help them open their eyes. Evan, I don't think that people realize though that you've written the anti-money ball. You've, you're explaining in your book among other things how corporate America has consumed baseball has eaten it. Yeah. I look, I think money ball brought some smart things into the sport and it was inevitable, but this is the outgrowth of money ball. This is all the ugly stuff that came along with money ball that frankly nobody really wanted to pay attention to for a long time. If you sat there and wrote critical things or presented critical views or questions about what these smart

money ball aeratines were doing, they painted you as a luddite. You'd left behind what you don't like numbers, you're some dummy, you didn't read money ball. But the reality is when you apply this cost efficiency model, not just to your roster, but the entire even organization, there's going to be some ugly stuff that goes on. And the Astros try to do this to the extreme. When Jeff Luna takes over, Jim Crane gives him a blank piece of paper. This is your oyster. Do it the way you think it should be done.

Well, the way it should be done was good at building a winning roster, good at making money and bad at taking care of their people, bad at preventing cheating and bad at not blowing up. So being a beat writer and being there every day, I mean, from where they came from, they were not good. And then they are great. Was there kind of like a sense of this is too good to be true or was it more like, let's just enjoy this ride because this is going really well. So let's not kind of look into

why this is happening. I mean, I think this goes to the heart of the book and the title. Forget the too long subtitle there, but does winning fix everything, right? When it sports team wins, this has been true for a long time. You're going to get a glowing book about how darn smart they are, right? Because they won. What else is the goal besides holding up that trophy at the end of the season? And in the case of the Astros, the conversation actually keeps going. They won, but there's something else going on.

And in the Astros case, a lot of other stuff was going on here. Yeah, I think after Moneyball, you had a lot of writers, a lot of sports writers who just who wanted to be the next Michael Lewis. They wanted to write about and slobber over all this innovation in the sport and look how smart everybody is. Look at these disruptors. Let's put them all up on a pedestal and didn't actually consider, yeah, but what's actually going on on the ground and inside the organization. Evan did Jeff Luneau, the former Astros general manager, did he ultimately do his job too well? He got fired along with his manager and two other managers would have already left the

organization. No shot. Jeff Luneau could have, if he had paid attention to some other elements of his business, treating people well, paying people well, creating a better culture. He's a real shot to be a Hall of Fame executive, based on the skill he has in terms of constructing a roster, bringing in innovative people. Luno did a lot of smart stuff, but you don't have to do all the other stuff that went along with Luno's smart stuff, right?

You can, you can be smart and not have this kind of disaster happen. And that was always the defense in Houston. It was, this is how it has to be done. If change were comfortable, it would have already been done. No, you don't have to treat people the way the asteris treated people. You don't have to have an organization that brings in McKinsey and company the consulting firm in the middle of a baseball season to evaluate manager AJ Hinch's moves. You don't have to do that, but he did it. So that's one example and the cheating scandals are fairly big one, but

you're kind of talking about, you know, like money ball as if the player of, money ball is about player evaluation. But what are the specific examples? I don't mean to ask you to give away your book. But what are the specific examples of this organization went to Rye in trying to apply this method to everything? Well, what is money ball about, right? I mean, it, not to be cheeky, it's money.

The whole thing about money ball is creating a new way, a better way for owners to evaluate players and really what does that mean to save money, to build cheap rosters to win baseball games. Well, you can take that cost efficiency mindset and apply it to your whole organization. We're going to save money at every possible corner. When the Astros, this current ownership Jim Crane gets there in 2011, they clean house, they fire everybody. Didn't really matter how good you were. Most people were just pushed out. We can get somebody $20,000 cheaper. Well, what happens when you do that? You lose

a lot of wisdom, you lose people who probably you should have worked to bring up to speed if maybe they weren't technologically savvy. And there are all sorts of examples. People who deserve title promotions didn't get them. They always wanted to keep pay, not just for players, but for their entire staff and the bottom half of the league. When Jeff Luno would go to owner's meetings, meet with other Astros owners, he would tout literally show these other owners, hey, we're at the bottom

of all these lists. Business owners love to save money. That's great. But the Astros took it so far and rubbed so many people the wrong way that they were creating this Tinder box. It was going to explode. People weren't going to protect the team. People weren't going to be loyal. There was no communication. There was distrust. It was, it was money ball on steroids. It was the way to look at it. Was AJ Hinge a fall guy because like at the time what it felt like and it could have been spin, right? It felt like Major League Baseball gave all the players immunity because they just wanted to get answers, right? And, you know, management, managers, stuff like that are collateral

damage. It doesn't matter because they're not the stars that you're going to see. And then there's reports that AJ Hinch took baseball bats to some of the equipment to quote unquote, try to stop it. But then he said he didn't vocally tell them to stop it. So I guess he admitted some guilt there. So was he just collateral damage or is that like spin? Like why did they give all the players immunity to not actually punish the people involved and then let him kind of seemingly take the fall for it? Manfred and the commissioners have screwed up a lot in this process, but as far as Hinch goes, his title is manager. And I don't mean that in just baseball manager.

He has to manage his people. He is in charge of that clubhouse. At the end of the day, that's his group. Luno is certainly there too. Jim Crane is certainly at the top of the organization. But yeah, when you allow a cheating scheme to fester and Hinch did try to make some demonstration ahead, I don't like this. But he never, in front of the whole team, said, we are stopping this today. And he regrets that deeply. He should have. So Hinch totally failed. Now, the question about why the players weren't

punished, it's an annoying technical answer. But basically, because the commissioner hadn't brought this up to the commission to the players union sooner in advance, if he tries to decide one day, you know what, I'm going to newly punish this behavior like this with x number of games. The union's going to file a grievance, they're going to get it overturned. I think it's ridiculous, the notion that the commissioner had to give immunity to get to the answers. Why? Because the original story Ken Rosenthal and I did had everything. And then video comes out after that from John Boye, you know, backing up everything in the story. We had a player on the record, Mike Fires. Rodmanford couldn't have gotten to the bottom of what happened without giving immunity. No, nonsense. He didn't want to be

in a spot where he tries to punish the players. And then he looks weak because the union gets invacated or overcharged. So I was going to ask you about fires. Does any of this happen without Mike fires? And then also does Mike fires do what he did had he not been left off of the playoff roster. So because fires was on the record, I think there's this outside perception that he calls up Ken Rose and Thalarion one day and is like, Hey, do you guys, you guys know the Astros are cheating? And I get why people make that assumption.

And maybe, you know, it's not impossible that it could have gone that way, I guess. But it's not actually what happened. The story, I started reporting on it, 13 months before it came out, comes out in November 2019. I learned what happened from inside the organization in October of 2018. So more than a year before the story comes out, I get fired in the middle of this,

sitting in my notebook, I pair up with Ken. We finally start making headway. We're days away, literally three days away from publishing. We've already got drafts. We've got all the facts. We have at that point three unnamed sources, but we're comfortable. We know what we've got, but we're reporters. We want to try to get somebody on the record. We want to try to get more information, call as many people as we can. So Ken calls Mike, tells them what we have, and I think that's important. We weren't just fishing. It was, hey, this story's coming. This is what we got, and let me read it to you.

And Mike at that point was willing to confirm it and willing to go on the record. And I don't say any of this to minimize Mike Fires. Having the courage to put your name behind it and tell people what your baseball team had done, that's not easy, that's the action of a whistleblower and whistleblower is a rare in any industry. But yeah, the idea that this story only happens because Mike Fires decides to talk,

it's just not actually what happened. It's not the way this came together. Like you tried to set fires to the organization. Also classic Rosenthol. I mean Jesus. Yeah, Rosenthol really swooped in and started. No, I wanted Kenny to do. Look, Kenny, is the biggest name in baseball reporting, right? I mean, you know, if we got a chance to get, we got one chance to get a guy in the phone. Do I want Evan Drelik making that call or I want Ken doing it? So I was happy to work with it. I just wanted to story out, right? It had burning a hole in my notebook. I had the thing for more than a year. It was, you know, it's eating at you. So I'm, I love Ken. I'm glad. I mean, it just sounds like you did the work and he came

in and got a finer show. It's what it sounds like. It does, it's out. And you're okay with it. Yeah, but you're good with it. Just, in fact, you said in the middle of it that you'd been fired, right? So what is the backstory there and what is the journey and the danger, because you wanted to do this and wanna do this for a career? And my guess is a book about the team

that you're covering cheating isn't the way that you imagined it going. No, look, I was at a, when I find out about the, the Astros cheating, I was working for a regional sports network in Boston. So the whole operation there was geared toward Celtics basketball games and reacting to sports talk radio, which, you know, that's finding great, but it is not

the type of place that values or knows how to do investigative reporting. It, it's just not. And I didn't expect to be fired, but it was one of the reasons why the story didn't come out sooner was, and still needed to do more reporting, but be, I didn't trust the place to back me up. If it did come out and the Astros would attack me, and by the way, they absolutely would have. We saw a year later how they tried to attack Stephanie Appstein, a sports illustrate, called her a liar. I mean, you know, so I made the right call. And then in the end, getting fired is, is this total

great thing. Because it allows me to go to the athletic, allows me to pair up with Ken who did not steal my reporting. And he made the right call. Oh, absolutely. He took advantage of a guy down on his luck. Yeah. Yeah, you need me to make the call. Whatever. on his luck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would just make it one for you. Evan, why is baseball so good at cheating between this, the hacking with the Cardinals, hack the Astros, the different types of PEDs you'd never heard of.

Why is baseball at the cutting edge, but is it going back to 1919? Is it good, is it good at cheating? Or is it that it's always evolving and they're looking for the margins where victory can reside and they don't apply anything in the way of morals? Because I don't think they're good at cheating. They all get busted.

They all get caught cheating because they don't have morals about doing it by the rules because they're competition of hauling. But is that exclusive to baseball? Why does it happen in basketball soccer? It's exclusive to corporate America, which is what it is that Evan is saying here. The smart people got to sports and realize, wait a minute, people aren't doing things dirty enough.

The smart people got to sports are like, we can cut all sorts of corners and make money through cheating because they're following some fictitious rules about their romantic game and we can bang on garbage cans and win the world series. Yeah, I mean, all these points are pretty much right. The, you know, the asterisk hole like essence was about figuring out ways to get an advantage, right? So when it trickles down to the club house and you've got bad relationships between the front house, front office and the clubhouse. You've got a strange relationship between Hinch and his bench coach, Alex Korra. Where is that line between innovation and cheating?

This was clearly cheating. It's not as though the asteris were unaware that they were going too far. They looked around, saw the Red Sox Yankees, some other teams using their video room. They're like, well, we can do this better than them. But yeah, it is corporate America. It's in baseball, the carrot, and all sports, the carrot, the incentive to cheat is always going to be there. Money, fame, success, books written about you, a claim, or really money at the end of the day is a big one. There will be another great scandal in sports, or at least there will be another great cheating scheme, whether we find out about it, you know, maybe they'll get smart, maybe they will wear a buzzer under their jersey. And nobody knows about it. But

if people are always going to try to bend the rules, baseball, football doesn't matter, any of the sports. Luneau seems like a bad person in general, just the way that you're describing him. Does he get fired without the cheating scandal scandal or is he still there today? One of the things that's almost uncomfortable for me and it goes back to the title of the book is that if you take away the cheating scheme, all this other crap was going on and you used to, and yet the team was very successful. And I think that's really hard for people, sports fans to reconcile.

Well, wait, they're winning. How could they be bad? How could there be all this other crap going on? Does the means justify the end? And I hope that's a question people read in the book really do ask themselves, is do you care how you get there? Even if it's not that's most extreme example of a cheating scheme.

And Luno, this is a shade's a gray situation. The guy is smart. The guy brought good stuff in a baseball, smart techniques. But he got a lot of screwed up stuff. Treated a lot of people really poorly. I think one way or another, whether the cheating scheme happens or not, you did have that incident with the assistant general manager getting fired

because he's drunk screaming in the clubhouse at reporters. It was gonna blow up. It was a matter of time before something went awry, and in the end, you have multiple things going on. The new book, Winning Fixes Everything, How Dirty F**king Cheaters Always End Up Winning. It has more reporting on this than you have seen anywhere else.

Before we let you go, we got to get out. There's more information on this and I'm telling you you should take a look at it. If you want to know how the underbelly of greed and business work to contaminate and corrupt everything. But before you get out of here, Evan, what are people getting most wrong about this scandal? What in your book is something that is vastly different from the tangential knowledge that people have of, ah, the Astros are cheaters and they won and they kept winning after they stopped cheating because cheating worked. People have no idea how different the public narrative around the Astros and probably

around a lot of teams is from what actually goes on on the inside. My reaction when reporting out a lot of this was just, whoa, this is wild. People think, oh, this guy's so smart, this guy's so great. And then you get under the hood and they're all fighting with each other. They have no idea what to do. And it's creating chaos. It was a quote in the book from somebody with the Reconology League investigation. Everybody thought it was this well-oiled machine. But when you looked inside, it was a disorganized mess. And I'm very proud that the book is truly

a look inside. Evan, thank you for being on with us. I will tell the audience again. Winning fixes everything, how baseball's brightest minds created sports, biggest mess. It is really kind of like the anti-money ball or the evolution and revolution of money ball. Thank you, sir. Thanks, guys. money ball or the uh... evolution and revolution of money ball thank you sir thanks guys