The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - DLS Classic: South Beach Sessions with Greg Cote

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

Join us as we relive some of our best hours from 2023. Only Dan and Greg Cote's hilarious, heartfelt and storied friendship could lead to a conversation for the ages... this episode will forever lovingly be known as "Sob Beach Sessions". Greg and Dan share how they managed to avoid forging a fierce rivalry, reveal why Chris Cote's dismissal (*cough* firing) from ESPN was the truest test of loyalty, and listeners will be stunned to find out the never-before-heard decision regarding Stugotz. Even if you know their relationship, this is unlike anything you've ever heard between the two... Originally published April 11, 2023. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Your listening to Giraffe King's Network. Welcome to another edition of South Beach Sessions. The new producers of South Beach Sessions have been encouraging me to go into the discomfort to be more vulnerable with these things, to share most or more of myself. I don't want to do that, but if I'm going to do that in the name of growth, in the name of challenging myself, I'm going to want to do it at the beginning with some of my closest friends, Greg Cody of the Miami Herald, who has been my friend. We have been friends for what? I don't know.

You're one of my longest standing friends. I don't have a lot of friends from this time in my life when I was, I guess, 17 years old. So we've been friends for how long? I think you were still in UM, weren't you? I was. I was still at the University of Miami and I just remembered distinctly and I've told you this story and others this story before that you were the first sports writer who was kind to me. I looked up to you and the writers

at the Harold. You kind of were dream-jobbing it to me. I didn't think that it was possible to do that for a living, do something fun, and I remember wanting to be you when you were in the University of Miami press box, covering University of Miami baseball. And when I was scared, I was scared at the Harold. I was in turning. These people were legends to me. I was reading them. And the first thing you said to me, you put your hand around me at a cafeteria table where I was sitting off to the side. And you said whisper to me, you know what, Dan? No matter time nor place, parents just don't understand. That's right. It was a Will Smith popular lyric from the time.

It was. And it was you trying to make an awkward connection in your way. You don't have many friends, correct? You have acquaintances, but you are a lone wolf. I am. I'm at that age where unfortunately, some of my best friends have passed on.

I lost another one a year or so ago and that happens when you're getting to be your late 60s, unfortunately, but yeah, I don't have a lot of friends at all and you've been one of mine for a long time and I remember quoting Will Smith to you in the cafeteria and I haven't quoted Will Smith since. In any manner whatsoever. You have described yourself to me as a bad friend. Yeah. You've said I'm a bad friend. I haven't quoted Will Smith since in any manner whatsoever. You have described yourself to me as a bad friend. Yeah. You've said I'm a bad friend. I don't call my friends. I don't talk to them. I don't go out of my way to spend time with them. I'm a bad friend. I do not find you a bad friend.

You have shown yourself again and again. Okay. You kid me all the time that I am a bad friend, but that's what makes you a good friend. Your bad about making that's not what makes me a good friend. What makes me a good friend is that I employ your kid after he has been fired. All right. That's fair. That too. That too. But no, we're the yin and yang of friendships because I am a bad friend. I'm an inattentive friend. Uh, I don't call it text.

You know, I just I rely on the other, the better friend to do that to sustain whatever friendship. And you do that. And, um, you know, one of the first things I always marveled about you is that you're very introspective and that some of the times you and I have been on the phone talking for 20 minutes, even 30 minutes. At the end of the conversation, I feel like I'm on a Naga Hyde couch because I can't afford real leather. So I'm on a dog-eyed couch and you're trying to extract from me emotional stuff, you know, things where I don't

necessarily want to go and you know if I'm going through tough times and my personal life or whatever reason, you know, you want to talk about that and that's a good thing and I don't do that, I don't do that naturally, you know. Feelings. Yeah, that's another good thing and I don't do that naturally. Feelings. That's another way you've been feeling is something you don't do naturally.

You know, they're meant to be hidden. I don't know what it is, but I think that's the way it is. Repression is what I would call it. General male human repression. Don't talk about your feelings. Don't look at them. Don't express them. Don't tell your friends that you Love them, but you have shown me in any number of ways and times over the years

That you are someone who loves me my father who does not do much of this You are golden with my father. I don't think I've I told you the story why you're forever golden with my father. I don't think I, have I told you the story? Why you're forever golden with my father? I don't think so, no. And my father does not extend himself to others this way, but there was one time, it was one of the first times ever that I'd gotten into one of these national storms where everyone's talking about you poorly. We did these rival stupid columns, New York against Miami before a Nick series, and I wrote some stuff in the contrivance of starting a war with New York that made me fear for my life when I was flying into New York and made me feel like I didn't have a whole lot

of friends in the world. And my father noticed that you walked everywhere with me in Madison Square Garden. My parents were also afraid for me, just in general, because of how hostile New York had gotten. And you were golden forever with my father from that just because you made sure to stay at my side wherever it is that I was going. You know, I consider loyalty to be one of your greatest attributes. You're an extremely loyal person. It's one of the reasons why my son still has a job,

and it's one of the things I've admired about you. And I think through you, I've sort of learned loyalty. I haven't learned how to be a good friend, but I have learned loyalty. You know, to a fault, I'm loyal to the Miami Herald, as it crumbles around me and I'm extremely loyal to you. I'd do anything for you because I've seen what you've done for other people. And I think that's one of the reasons why your transition from ESPN into starting up metal arc is such, it's anxiety for you. It's a lot of pressure and because you take it all on, because you are loyal. You don't look at this just as a company.

You look at it as dozens of people are relying on me to make this work, to make this a big success. And you take on all that, and that's an attribute. It's tough for you, I'm sure, but it's an attribute. One of the reasons they're encouraging me to do this is because when we did this recently with Dominique Foxworth, when it was over, out of the view of people, I broke down sobbing in his arms,

broke down sobbing in his arms in a way I had not before in a way that was uncomfortable because of the strain of the responsibility because this thing growing doesn't necessarily mean that I get to do less. I kind of thought it would. I kind of in my head somewhere, I thought it would that you leave ESPN, but it's been so difficult to build the scaffolding around a promise that I don't think people understand the core of because I think a lot of people

in our audience ride with us with uncommon loyalty because the entertainment dollar is stretched. People have more options than they've ever had. The idea that people listen to three and four hours of this a day is an enormous commitment. But I think the intimacy of it ties us to them from the place where they kind of know that when your son gets let go by ESPN, that it's not going to fly with us, not me, us, that that's not going to work. I told your son not to choose this as a career, because I think it's a shitty career. I've seen how bad it is to people, how cruel it is, how they can be discarded or not valued.

And I didn't think there was a career in it, but he followed it because there was laughter in it because he didn't have much of anything that he was doing professionally that gave him joy, correct? Yeah, that is correct. You know, he was a high school baseball coach. He was always looking for a career in sports somehow. And what he found in your orbit with you and your show was something that gave him great joy that made him proud to go to work, proud of where he worked, and loving his job. And apart from salary,

apart from salary and money, loving his job. And that's a rarity. And he found that. And he feels like he found a piece of gold. And when he was fired by ESPN without your knowledge, which was a slap in the face to you, and you reacted like you did to save him in his career, I didn't need that to happen to for my appreciation of you and everything you've meant to me and my family, but that just sealed it for me. I mean, you saved his career, you know, and what brought him such joy. And now, you know, you, I don't know if you feel that kind of appreciation from everybody around you But you certainly have it from Christopher and I and hopefully you do feel that from the people that you're spending so much

Energy and so much anxiety on to build this You say I did something for him, but really and it's nice It's a very nice thing to hear and it's a very noble thing to think of myself but I would say that in following love he gave us permission to do a thing. I might not have done otherwise. I might not have been able to bring myself to do otherwise because I wasn't sure that I wanted more responsibility for others. I've always enjoyed having being responsible for myself. That's the great safety net of having an employer, right? So many of the tensions that we had at ESPN were

because Mike Ryan was running interference on me, trying to protect this thing from corporate everything, from Disney everything, and trying to make sure that my people were, our people were treated with care when corporations, and this isn't true of just Disney corporations can be uncaring. It's one, he gave me permission to try and dream about the idea that we can build a different corporation than that, that we can try to aspire to, but it has been really hard and people

should know because I've noticed this, you and I haven't talked at all about what happened there. You and I have never discussed what happened there. So through your prism, I don't know what happened to Chris. I don't know how he got that news. I don't know if he calls you and tells you, I don't know how the details of that unspooled in front of you or how long your son was scared because I don't imagine that he would he thought we would do what we were gonna do for him No, but I think you told him you you let it be known pretty quickly And I think there was always a faith that dance not gonna let this happen, you know listen When I had major surgery in

2018 might have been 2017 in 2018 might have been 2017. I had a large tumor right in the middle of my chest. And you and your father, other than my direct family, you and your father were the ones who came to visit me there. And, you know, that will never not mean a lot to me. You know, that will never not mean a lot to me. And then years later, ESPN fires my son, and because of that, you blow up your entire career.

You know, that's the tipping point. Obviously that's not all that made it happen, but that's the tipping point. And I just, I can never have enough gratitude for that. You know, I don't know how else to put it. And Christopher, he felt devastated when ESPN fired him. But then when you stepped up, I thought there, I think there was always a feeling, I think I even said to Christopher at the time, Dan's not gonna sit still for this.

I just had a feeling you were going to do something. I didn't think you were gonna let him just drift off. You know, part of it because you, and I have that relationship, but part of it because you thought it was so unfair that he was the one let go. You didn't have a chance. You didn't want anybody to be let go. But you didn't have a chance to have a say in that. It was an insult to you. I think you felt like that. But we always felt safe with you, I think, my family.

You know, dance. I think this is going to be okay. And then soon everything happened that happened and Chris, but still working for you and loving every minute of it. People should know because Greg has not said this in a way that hasn't been playful. But since we left the SPN, I don't believe Greg Cody has gotten a dollar from Metal Arc. He may have gotten some from some sponsors, but Greg has been working for free since we left and because I didn't like that you were working for free, I wrote you a check, a personal check that I have noticed and I have not told you this has not yet been cashed I have noticed, and I have not told you this,

has not yet been cashed. You like money, I've been making fun of you all your life about how much you like money. You tend to cash checks I've written to you previously very quickly. They get cashed very quickly. Where are they going to bounce? This is a large one because I didn't like that the company had not yet paid you once we were getting up and running, but you haven't cashed that check. Right.

No, and I don't know that I will. It's not about money with you and I, and you're kind enough to, you know, let me shamelessly plug my own podcast every once in a while in exchange for me not asking any money for for being on your show because I love doing the show and and I hope this goes without saying, but my affiliation with you has made my late career just a joy and and the success that I never thought it would be. Right? Print journalism is fading, fading, fading. But all of a sudden, print journalism is not my identity anymore.

My identity is my podcast, it's being on your show, and it's the success of my podcast largely because of being on your show. And I appreciate that so much that my landing spot for my career is so much better than I ever thought it would be. When Christopher and I were in Houston for the final four, dozens of people at the game were taking selfies with us and recognizing us. And I think one guy mentioned that it was because of my writing and the heraldies from Miami. But for the most part, any you all is like

referred to with as crappy celebrity. Any crappy celebrity I have is because of you. And I recognize that. And I appreciate it so much. I just do. It fails to mention some things, though, that probably should be mentioned. Starting with, I get to the Miami Herald and you're in line for the major columnists'

jobs. You are ahead of me. You are older than me. You are very good at doing this. The business is filled with ego, with vanity. You were never threatened by me. Yeah, and you're right about that. And I've thought a lot about that. And part of it is more than part of it. It's so rare though, Greg. Greg, it's so rare. It is so rare. It's a small space. being a newspaper columnist mattered.

I sort of passed you there and you allowed it with great grace. It never revealed itself as anything other than support for me. I know it well and these were the days when the newspaper was still sort of the king in the market, right? Like, if you were a Miami-Herald, a Harold columnist in the late 80s, into the early 90s, it was still a really big deal. And Edwin Pope, the legend on our market, was still there. It's totally respect for you that enabled me to handle it like I did because it should

have ruined our friendship. It should have come between us, right? If I had, if I was petty, if I was jealous, if I had an ego a little bit too big, we wouldn't be friends. You've got a pretty good ego though Greg, this is the thing, like it's not like you don't have an ego. It's not like it wasn't put down for me in a way that felt loving. It felt supportive. I didn't feel a hostility toward me at the Miami Herald, at least in part, because you wouldn't allow it. Well, I think part of that was self-confidence. I'm good

at what I do. I can say that. I'm a good writer. I don't know that I'm a good reporter, but I'm a good writer. I know what to do with words. You're better. And I recognize that. And you got nothing. Somebody said to me once at the herald, when you were surpassing me, and it was obvious to everybody at the herald that, oh, they just need a Cuban guy they just need the Cuban voice and and if I believe that that too might have filled me with with so much vitriol and acid that that it would have come between us I saw your talent I was right near it I saw it talent. I was right near it. I saw it. I lived it and I'm like, I can say, I'm really good. Levitards better. You know, and that is why we're friends today. You know, that's why I respect you so much. Your loyal as hell. It's why you still have me on your show, even

though I'm old, and I'm probably not as nearly as good as I should be talking into a mic. But you're loyal to me. I'm very loyal to you. And that, though, what you say, we shouldn't be friends today because under any other circumstance, I would have been so angry that you're a leapfrog me because I paid my dues. I paid my dues. I waited for Bob Rubin to leave. I was in line behind Pope. No, it was yours. It was the lead columnist in town. It was your position to have at the H Harold through seniority, through talent, through packing order, there that could have been poisonous. But when you say that you are very loyal to me, I'm not sure how much

you've thought about this. Because I don't know if the audience knows this. The original choice to be Stugats was you. I wanted to do this show with you. I went to you and asked you to do this show and they were going to pay you a good amount of money to do this show and you were going to be Stugats before Stugats. You were choice number one. More than Boob Chombie, more than anyone I wanted to do the show with you. And you, who likes his fame, has his ego, loves his following. You said I cannot do it. It would not allow me to be at Christopher's high school baseball games.

It would keep me from being around my son during some high school years that I think are important. Yeah, the timing was just wrong. When I look back at it, I'm like, wow, I made a bad choice. I should be thinking that, but I'm not. I'm not. In some way I did make a bad choice professionally,

but being here and making all that money and having Stugatsu's fame versus being in a little press box as big as this studio broadcasting my kids high school games. Seeing like a good idea at the time, but I don't regret that. I just don't because, you know because the kids grew up so fast. It's the number one cliche of parenting, but Christopher, the day before yesterday was six years old doing cartwheels on a T-ball diamond.

And then broadcasting his high school games. And now he's in his mid-30s. I mean, it just flies. You know, your parents think the same thing about you. You know, that you were just in grade school. They were just watching you in high school and now look at you. And your parents are aging.

And Christopher looks at me right now the same way you're looking at your father. You know, it's just, it's a whole mortality thing. It flies by so fast that I just wanted to be a part of that. You know, I'm a bad friend. I'm Erlin would tell you I'm probably not a great husband all the time, but I do think I'm a pretty great father. And that's very important to me.

And a present father, because you wanted to do, I do think I'm a pretty great father. And that's very important to me. And a present father, because you wanted to do, you wanted to be on the dugout for his high school game introducing the hitters, correct? I did. That's the choice you made. You chose instead of international fame and glory. The microphone that would serve you for 20 years.

Right. Instagats is role with me doing none of the ad reads so he could get all the money. Yes. All of that could have been yours. And instead you chose a microphone over a dugout to for a seven and nine plantation team. Yeah, they weren't even a great team.

They weren't even a great team. What was I doing? But I enjoyed it. And I wanted to be give a professional sounding broadcast to a high school game. And if I wasn't doing it, it would have been some freshman 13-year-old who didn't know how to do anything. And I tried to, I gave the kids a nice introduction and now batting number 16 shortstop Bobby Riffle

You know that's that thing and then Christopher enjoyed it. I kept all those stats in a big book and everything but believe me your father Feels the exact same way about you. I don't know if he always tells you all know but here's the thing the right I'm sure he does feel that way. But I remember my father, God almighty, this one's interesting. Greg, me and my brother, this is, this is how remedial it was with my father. I don't know if it's just sort of old Cuban tropes or male tropes. Me and my brother with a great deal of practice, not once or twice, dozens

and dozens of times had to teach my father. Dad, when we volunteer, I love you. You say I love you too. That's the way it's supposed to work. The thing that I remember of my greatest achievement trying to please a man who didn't do pleasure, right? I'm wrought with whatever the scarring is of that, right? Just whatever it is, a child trying to please a man who doesn't do pleasure, you're going to personalize some of that. I still remember the orange ink on the baseball when I threw a no-hitter in first grade, when no one could

hit everybody through no-hitters, because it said just on the ball, he wrote it, I'm proud of you. You have had a great gift as someone who doesn't talk about his feelings that much, who doesn't rummage around in these spaces very much to be able to share this with Christopher in a way that he appreciates. Like, I see the love between you. It's charming. It reminds me of the relationship with me and my father where he gets super frustrated with you, but he will have no doubt that his father loved him. Right.

Yeah. I think your dad is of a generation that just didn't share their feelings as much. A couple of times over the years, at a heat game, I remember the conversation, because Poppy was at heat games in the press room for some reason. You know, he's complaining about Mickey Eris and not having enough chips in his free potato chips.

Exactly right. Chasing down the owner of the heat personally to tell them they're not enough chips in here. Right. And it came up once how great you were doing and you must be so proud of Dan and I teed him up and I just got a bunch of bluster. Oh, of course.

Yeah, of course I am. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, my dad was the same way, you know, World War II generation. Not an I love you guy, my dad either. I found out after he died. Wow That he had been keeping a scrapbook of all my glippings

that it had been keeping a scrapbook of all my glippings, which I never knew. He never mentioned it. But so, you know, love isn't always conveyed in words. You know, and you have that from your parents. But you're great with words and your son knows because there's no private scrapbook. You probably didn't say all the things you wanted to say. There's still time to say them.

Right. No, I'm much more, I'm an I love you guy. Like, my parents weren't, and I learned from that. You know, and I think that's one of the reasons that I think I'm a pretty good parent is that I learned from what I didn't get from my parent. And they were great parents, but they just weren't demonstrative. And I'll tell Christopher and Michael, my other son, how proud I am and encourage them and

hug. So my brother and I never hugged at all until the time we were seeing my father dying and we left telling him we'd see him tomorrow knowing we wouldn't. And when we left that hospital, my brother and I hugged for the first time and we've hugged ever since. You know, saying goodbye to a parent does a lot of shit to you, you know. It's big. And if you don't mind me mentioning it, I know you think about that a lot with your agent parents. Well, I've been the hell and back over the last couple of years with an assortment

of things that it's not just the business stuff that we've been handling. But it's all coincided though. Yeah, well because, because their mortality is something that is, yeah, it's very difficult to navigate, but one of the things that I've learned later in life and it's been brought by my wife and a deeper feeling of love is an awareness of my blind spots that allows me to navigate past the sand paper People who came before me sand paper emotions not just my dad

I'm talking about all have his parents and all of their brothers. There's a whole clan of generational, lebitar, Latin men who either never married or never knew love or didn't raise kids. Like there's a lot of them. They were a famous orchestra in Cuba. Like they were a band that was womanizing, but not doing. At the end, they all died alone. All of them died totally alone because of sandpaper emotions that were passed down to my father.

And I've been able to avoid very late in life. But what have gone to the grave without even realizing I was succumbing to my patterns? If not, for marrying someone who I wanted to please so much, that I was no longer defensive or offended by her very gently showing me the mirror on where my blind spots were with my family and my patterns. And your mother never thought anybody was good enough for you, right? And that's not a criticism of your mother. That's how much she loved you. Nobody was good enough for her, Danny. So when Valerie finally came along, I think, and I don't know if it was reluctantly, I don't know if it was eagerly, but Valerie got into your family in a way that you had long-term relationships, you know, and that- No, my family never, this was the exile experience. It was so distrustful that I didn't realize this until I legitimately didn't realize this

until I was 50 years old. Imagine what kind of blindness you have, blindness you have to have to not realize what I'm about to tell you in a half century of what I think is some learning about life. I'm curious. I like to learn. I didn't even realize until I looked back from 50 years after my wedding day, holy shit. I mean, my brother have never really welcomed another family, another family of anybody

to be with his relationship and my relationship. Like the exile experience was such that it was us and just us, we were the only ones who could trust trust each other and then the old people start dying right and left And then it's just the four of us and we're all we got it's the four of us and nobody else is allowed in because that's been the exile Experience if you don't let anybody in you don't get hurt And if you don't trust you never have the trust broken right and everybody else is closed off It's a it's a closed society Five year and six year girlfriends not allowed in right not allowed in none of them were allowed to be

To soak into the fabric of what was family was always We've got our family and you are over there Imagine how stupid I had to be none of you told me I thought that was so weird I've gone back to some of my friends and been like how did none of you tell me how weird it was that I was always bringing my dad with me Everywhere to like even put him on a TV show. How is it the none of you told me how strange it was that in my 40s I'm still hanging around with my mother right, you know that that's a good question and My wife early and I have had those conversations, but That's a good question. And my wife, early in the night, have had those conversations.

But it would feel like meddling. If I'm telling you, and you still make fun of me to this day, when you and your dad started that TV show that I wrote in the paper, that the questioning whether it would work or not. Just like, I did because that was unheard of at the time. You know, you don't put your dad on TV.

What's he doing? And parenthetically, it was funny. It was just fine. If you don't respect television, look, what's the maximum disrespect you can show television? Get somebody who doesn't speak proper English with the first language and put them in the center of your show.

That's a good fuck you for television, isn't it? I'm telling you, and I question whether or not it would work. And you always got a kick out of that because parenthetically it did work pretty damn well for a pretty long time. But yeah, it's, I just always felt like I would ask you now looking back on it, did you ever, were you ever concerned that why doesn't my mother seem to like

all my girlfriends? Like, was that ever on your radar? It's not that she didn't like them, it's that there wasn't an absorption in a way that allowed me to share my life with all of the entities because the Cuban family has to stay together. Okay. You flee to find freedom. You must protect it together. And so I don't think she thought she was being selfish. I don't think she thought she was keeping me to herself.

It's just that I saw all around me. To me, it wasn't strange. When I say to you, why didn't any of you tell me this? It's because all of my 30 and 40-year-old Cuban friends, their family is still involved in their life. So, still part of the fabric, like the normal thing is see if you can get grandma to live out back until she dies. See if we can get a guest house out back or have her in another room in the house because it's just a small existence. But have you ever had these kind of talks with your mother? Yes.

I went to therapy. I've done a lot of therapy. I've probably done, I don't know, 15 years worth of therapy trying to navigate some of these issues. And again, I tell you, 15 years of therapy, still this one didn't dawn on me until I was 50, long into the therapy. And almost every time and every way, what I would find at some point is a blockade until I made my own choices about it again that every woman I've ever been with has tried to be like navigate the labyrinth of how do I get him away from his mother without telling him I'm getting him away from his mother right without him without him without him noticing because it was always subtle or it was never just spoken hey this is moronic you're a weirdo what's the matter with you snap out of it be an adult and it wouldn't have worked If any woman had come at me that way I had to see it for myself. It had to be something That was

Noticeed by me or I wouldn't do it. I would have been defensive or reluctant about it And how did that epiphany happen? I mean, I just met her That's how it happened and then it was easy easy. The hardest thing was somehow easy. The blind spots evaporated. The feeling was too good to not pursue it. And then furthermore, to protect it, to make sure that nothing could get near it. Because I'm transitioning from one kind of way of thinking. And I'm just turning upside down things that I had conviction about. Principles that I had conviction about. that I had conviction about this is a a submission and a surrender that came to me as the most natural thing in the world just because it felt right like it felt like well wait a minute if this is what it can be if this

is what life can be is this is what love can be is it if this is what light can be then I must put it in a treasure chest and keep it to myself and protect it from the world. But you also had to make that revelation work within your family. And I'm wondering, was there much heavy lifting for Valerie and your mother to become close? Have they become close? They have become close. And I have to be the one navigating boundaries there. Bowery's not going to do anything wrong here. Right. Wherever it is that I have to put my foot down

in order to create the boundary, I will do it. But you have to understand that what I grew up seeing, when I talked to you about patterns, my father and only son, again, from a lot of people who didn't have kids or weren't married or I did not see, I did not have a lot of examples grew up seeing when I talked to you about patterns. My father and only son, again, from a lot of people who didn't have kids or weren't married or I did not see. I did not have a lot of examples

of what multiple relationships are supposed to look like. Grow up around one of them when my grandmother comes here and she lives with us in our house when I am in my very earliest formative years. My grandmother, because there was no other place for her to live. She had to come live with us. And my parents weren't sure they would ever see her again. They left their families thinking, getting on planes as teenagers,

thinking that they would see them again soon. And then 10 years go by and their adults when they see them soon. And now grandma lives with my parents and whatever invasiveness that is to have an a married couple's life and my grandmother was always being very careful to keep a distance from my father while giving him the space and walking around if his feet were on a coffee table but if my if his feet were on a coffee table, but if my mom's feet were on a coffee table, she would just come over and knock them off of the table. She was very respectful. When in their home, she was very respectful of not infringing upon that relationship.

Wow. And these are the things that I saw. These are the imprintings that you don't realize that you have on you that are part of what form you. I loved the South Beach lessons you did with Dominique because one thing in it that I really related to was you two talking about your wives and about the women in your life

and how that just mattered so profoundly because I have that With my wife who does everything in our house. You're a giant toddler. I I can't I'm almost literally telling you I cannot turn on our TV You're I'm not being sarcastic when I say you're a giant top of a giant toddler. She is raising You are the least evolved of her three sons and she only has two sons. That's right. That's probably right. I'm a 195 pound toddler and I give myself a little, I've been doing some drinking and blah blah blah. So, but I want to ask you that you, Valerie has made you happier than I've ever seen you. But the past couple of years and the anxiety of starting a new business have made you probably more anxiety-ridden than I've ever seen.

Yeah, I'm less confident than I've ever been and I'm less fearless than I've ever been because I'm not just responsible for myself. And it's hard for me to treat failing as learning. I'm not an entrepreneur, I am not a, I'm not someone who knows how to build a startup company. I don't want to be managing people. I want to let people be. I want them to govern themselves and get the maximum freedom, authenticity and voice from

there that you can get. Right. What does it feel like to have everyone believing in you so much and counting on you so much? You're running a business, you have people staring at you, counting on you to do the right thing doing it. I've been doing it since I was eight years old. I've been doing it since my mother married a man who had his emotional limits and then in ways unseen, marries me and makes me

responsible for the family. She would not like that appraisal. My mother's a hugely loving woman. She kept a family together under very hard circumstances, lacking fear and just drowning us in love and faith. But I've been doing it in some form since I was eight years old. And now, as you talk about the happiness with my wife, my marriage is really good and I want to spend as much time in it as I possibly can, but building a business doesn't allow. It's consuming. It's just so consumptive and I'd like it to be less consumptive and I'm working toward that while trying to achieve a balance. Well, like, how do you do that? Because a great marriage is insulation in a lot of ways. It protects you from so much But you're having to juxtapose that with everything you're going through on the business side of it and people who just listen fans of the show

Just get to see the the you on the air, but you off the air dealing with the business end of it is Something to see it. It's a revelation to me to look at it. And I'm wondering when you got into this enterprise with John Skipper, how is it different than you imagine because you can't be surprised exactly that it's been this much of a burden? I am entirely surprised because I thought I'd be doing this part of it, which I've gotten good at and is pretty easy for me.

And I wouldn't have to concern myself at all with the other part of it, that other people would handle the other part of it. It's the greatest mistake I made. It was naive to think. It's why I thought it would be easy. I'll just come in and keep doing the same job. I will just keep coming in and I won't worry about anybody's health insurance. I won't have to worry about whether we have enough cameraman. I won't have to worry about whether the video department works. I won't have to worry about the infrastructure for me as a piano. I won't have to worry about whether the video department works. I won't have to worry about the infrastructure for me as a piano. I won't have to worry about moving studios. I won't have to worry about whether somebody thinks that somebody doesn't have enough money

out of our tens of millions of dollars. I thought I was handing that over to a group of executives who would handle 100% of it. Let me ask you a naive question from someone who's never owned a business. Isn't there a way to delegate? Can't you go to John Skipper and say, I need five other people. That's why we have 55 employees and I'm still in charge of these things. Wow. Okay. Maybe you need 65 employees. Well, that's the solution to everything. It used to be 45 employees. Higher, more people. Yes, it used to just keep hiring more people. How about higher people who are gonna make my job easier?

Maybe that should be a specific. What would you do differently, though? Like how could it have changed for you to, because I've seen you the last two years, man, and you take on everything, and I hear you talking between segments on the air, and I see how much this is weighed on you. What's the question?

The question is, what could you have done differently? Because it's not fair to you. I know, but here's the thing, it doesn't have to be done differently. On the other side of pain, there is growth. I don't know a lot of people who willingly choose pain in the name of running toward pain and fear on the other side of that saying growth. I don't know how much of this I would actually change. I followed my heart and in doing so I then make the scaffolding around the following of a

heart that has been opened and I don't know that I would do it differently. I think we're going to come across great success. I think we're already succeeding in ways that are enormous profound and moving but it doesn't mean that any of that is easy. The trick is to find the joy in the challenge. I've got, I've learned so much from some people who I consider more evolved than me, who consistently choose the hardest thing because it's the fucking hardest thing. They somehow know that if they can solve that puzzle, there will be great growth and fulfillment in it, but it requires you to invite change. And you know, as you've gotten older specifically, how little change you invite, because you're comfortable in the familiar. This is a product. This conversation is a product of new

producers handling South Beach sessions and demanding something uncomfortable from me in the name of growth, to have these conversations with you and others, hopefully one day with celebrities where they're not quite so one side or where I get to hide behind the questions because there I don't have to show anybody anything. I could just keep hiding. I could do that all day, just deflect from anyone actually seeing me by asking a thousand good questions, but then there's no real vulnerability in it, and I'm just doing the same dry show that doesn't probably have any of you on my tears in it either.

Right. Do you come to work every day eager and happy to be going to the studio? It fluctuates, but never because the doing of the show is the problem. Like the doing of the show is always a joy. It's all the other stuff around it that is less joyous. show is the problem. Like the doing of the show is always a joy. It's all the other stuff around it that is less joyous. It's the mechanics, it's the details. It's some of the stuff I've never been good at and my brain doesn't really, not, doesn't enjoy it, isn't good at it.

And so then I just fumble around and fail and I'm also not interested in some of the details. I prefer, but the doing of the show, I think everybody here would say that, that the doing of the show is a joy joy that that doesn't feel like a suffering and that's why I believe our show is such a Faberier egg in this entire industry that it exists as somebody as something that has a breathing living heartbeat where the people are clearly enjoying themselves. When is that not contagious? Watching others enjoy themselves. When is that not contagious?

Watching others enjoy themselves. I suppose you could be jealous of it as well, but I'm guessing that most people listening to this would love to do this for a living. Oh, sure. And you've always used that as a barometer. Are we laughing much in the studio? Did you laugh today? That's your barometer of a good show for the most part.

Once in a while, you get serious, of course, but laughter and the idea of friends laughing together is the starting point for you and it always has been. But, you know, I'm older than you. And in my marriage, one of the taboo subjects is, what are we going to be doing in five years? When are you going to retire? what are we going to be doing in five years? When are you going to retire? When are you going to retire? It's just an unavorted subject. In your case, if you don't want my asking, you and Valerie have to be plotting it out,

right? What are you going to be doing in five years? I hope to be curating over a company that we've built that cares. Like Dominique did ask me this the other day. He asked me and I did the deflecting thing and I danced around it, but he was basically asking me how do you want to be remembered. And my short answer would have been he cared. And my longer answer would be that he cared what he built. that he cared what he built.

Not just that he cared. Like it's one thing to care and love people and spread love and have friendship, but that what he built had care in it. I want this company to be something that lives at the soul of where our friendship resides and where your son's career resides and where your son's joy resides. I have hired people like you at the top of our company who are also dream building at the end of their careers. Whether it be John Skipper, one of my mentors, Gary Honeig, one of my mentors, or Gary Honeig, one of my mentor,

these, uh, to Gary Honeig is approaching 80 years old and has the job of his lifetime enjoying in our documentary division because I wanted to make sure that I was surrounded by people who care about me, that I could care about, who can then extend that care to others. So that's a, that's the longer answer, but that's why I'm still doing it. That's why I haven't already run off with my wife to a plot of land in Hawaii to just look at the sea so that I don't have to deal with your complaints that you haven't been paid by our invoice department

for some ad you did for a whiskey. Yeah, right, exactly. Well, they're complaints made with love. Whenever I complain to you about not a whiskey. Yeah, right. Exactly. Well, they're complaints made with love. Whenever I complain to you about not being paid, they should pay you. I just don't want to worry about it. I don't want to be worried about the invoicing. Well, you know, I may cash that check yet. You know, that big check of yours that I have yet to cash mainly because I've completely forgotten where I put it. I don't know. Theques expire. I mean, it's probably expired by now. I don't know.

I love you, buddy. I love you, too.