The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - Hour 1: Let It Fly with Kyle Boller (feat. Pablo Torre)

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

Pablo Torre joins us to discuss the new details surrounding the NFL collusion story that he initially broke. More importantly, it's time to play the game that is sweeping the nation: Real Podcast or Fake? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. This is The Don LeVittor Show with the StuGuts Podcast. Listen up, time to think fast. Is this a real or fake podcast? It's a game that is quite literally sweeping the nation. I have not had such good feedback on something that we've created like this maybe since the musical. And we are gonna play real or fake podcast

with Andrew Hawkins and the host of Pablo Torre finds out Pablo Torre. Pablo, let's begin with you. Let's see if you can find out if this is a real or fake podcast Talk that talk with Jerome Williams Junkyard dog the junkyard dog JYP talk that talk I'm gonna go fake because you would have to work in the junkyard dog into the title if it was a real podcast

Hmm. I should have thought about that. It is indeed a fake podcast But talk that talk is a good name. That's a great name. Yeah, we kick it over to Hawk false start with Eugene Monroe Okay, I'm gonna go fake That is fake. Okay Is that the Eugene Monroe who's also an advocate for weed? Yes Full start, but I also think he led the league in false start Yeah, that's like a pain point for players

You don't get that level of leanin'. We kick it over to Pablo. Deuces Wild with Eric Burns and Will Clark. Oh my god. Deuces Wild with Eric Burns and Will Clark. Talking about beer league legend Eric Burns. Uh... Deuces Wild?

Um, I... Will Clark, the guy who owed like millions of dollars while playing, um, anyway that's a separate part. Different eras, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, different eras, right. Uh, I'm gonna go...that's a fake podcast. That is a real podcast! Toast is wild! With Eric

Burns and Will Clark, I could not believe it! Okay! I have to find out about that actually. I would love to get the platform as well. You gotta add that to it. Give me the platform as well, because that will be able to mirror up the name to the platform.

Like yeah, that's definitely something that company would call a podcast. One of the fake ones that we had was just available on Apple with Michael Beasley. It was very believable. Wherever you get your podcast. I'm saving that one in the ulcer. Let it Fly with Kyle Bowler Kyle bowler Hawk is that a real

podcast let it fly with Kyle bowler he did throw it over a goal post and Bill Oakes said that that's the reason that they were gonna keep winning Super Bowls because Kyle bowler could throw it through the goalpost from his knees Imagine from the 50 yard line. That feels believable because players like think everyone like oh everyone knows I let it fly So we're gonna name it name it that I'm gonna go with fake though That is indeed fake. Okay. I haven't seen a cowboy. Last final round here Pablo hammered to left with Lance Berkman. Hammered to left with Lance Berkman.

Houston Astro great, Lance Berkman. So specific. Hammered to left could be Johnny Manziel's podcast too. Be a good one. I don't wanna tell you that I was also workshopping before. I'm gonna go that that is real. It's fake, I just admitted to like workshopping a previous one that would have been insensitive. Berkman was a lefty. And finally, Hawk Journeyman with Andrew Hawkins. Oh no that's a tough one. Oh, no. Terribly named podcast, number one. Oh, no. Not as bad as Paul Starkey.

Before I give my answer, I will also say, yesterday had a lot more Ebonics, because I did see the clip. Say it with your chest, with John Henderson and Albert Hayes. I could pick the fake every time, because I felt like you were on Rap Genius picking out podcasts. I said what I said with Rod Strickland in a minute. Yeah.

I said what I said. Don't start nothing won't be nothing. Yeah. Two days ago, I think it was Horace Grant. I'm like, OK, these are. Hey, wait just a minute. And Chris is like, yo, that's such a good one. That is what they would call it.

Watch out there now. This is a real podcast. What we would call it. It's a real podcast. Season two coming. We'll get back to that. Thank you for playing. Is that a real podcast?

Wow. Pablo Torre finds out is a real podcast that does real journalism. Don Vannada is not someone that sports leagues want sniffing around their stuff. And Don Vann nada has now uh... done some more reporting on pablo torres report and the espn headline today is sources uh... nfl p a nfl agreed to keep collusion findings

secret uh... pablo your initial story wali big story did not resonate the way that i wanted to and Mike Florio's accusation is that the media is partnered with the NFL and either downplayed the story or ignored the story. This now makes it so that I believe this story's about to get a lot a lot larger at least in part because now you've got the attention of the players saying my

union did what so explain to me what you saw in this reporting and what it means yes so uh... don van etta is obviously one of the great investigative journalists who's ever lives you know and uh... kaelin collar who worked with him on this story is also an excellent reporter. And so it has been interesting and amusing to see the floodgates open on delay. In order of the things you reference, right, like Floreo having that theory, I have a bit more of an Occam's razor theory, which is simply that people aren't exactly eager to co-sign

investigative independent journalism, but it also jeopardizes the places they get their sourcing from, their information, the way they eat. Maybe that's a separate, but very similar way to the way that Florio put it. But the fact that Don has entered the fray has been incredibly, incredibly, I would say, both predictable because the story is real and also welcome because this is what I was hoping

would happen when you lay out a roadmap in a 50 minute episode around a 61 page document that had never been released before. And so when Don says, by the way, there are a couple of amazing details in this, by the way, that just make this something that obviously is enormous. One of those details is that they discovered what I had alluded to, which is that there was an actual confidentiality agreement signed between leaders of the NFL and the NFLPA to

suppress the document that I published. So there's an actual binding legal document that my episode essentially sort of like broke open because now everyone, according to this reporting, and I wanna quote Don here because I just don't wanna smell my own farts, quote, the confidentiality agreement kept the details of Dronie's finding, that's the arbiter, his finding from the players

until the Poblatory Finds Out podcast published the full of his report on june twenty fourth and then it goes on to discuss that this created a stir among the players into me the next step in all of this dan is like what are the players that what are they going to do about it what should they think what should they think well another detail that was reported by

Don that happened literally this week, I think, puts to rest any ambiguity because the NFLPA under Lloyd Howell, the executive director, who's at the center of the story we reported, has decided six months after he got the ruling to appeal the ruling. So just keep in mind everything that's happening here. So they suppress the ruling. I report the ruling. There's radio silence. Don Van Anna starts calling around and the NFLPA says actually we're going to appeal the ruling. There's very important things in here. It is as possible a clear indication that they messed this up that you could get. They are appealing the ruling that they tried to bury because they realize how bad a look it is that they never did anything with it.

Well, I've got follow-up questions here, but does this tie into the NFL now wanting $12 million in lawyer damages and fees because they're appealing a ruling that they agreed to keep confidential and not appeal yes so the nfl had an agreement again a confidential agreement that we're not going to anything with this in the suppressed the nflpa suddenly now because of this public pressure is saying actually we got to do something about this sorry guys and the nfl is saying in response well then you owe us legal fees $12 million because our whole deal has been shattered now Of course, there is fine legal print that Florio has been reporting on pro football talk about whether that's actually plausible that they would get

The twelve million dollars, but now we're in the realm of a more familiar landscape of NFL versus NFL PA saber rattling frankly this reporting has pushed the NFLPA to behave finally like a union again. And that is as indicting as anything you could argue that we reported at all. That's what I was saying, that I would be, if I was a member of this union, I would be unbelievably mad and asking all sorts of questions. So answer this for me Pablo, what was the NFLPA's incentive in agreeing to keep all of that private? So in the episode we posit a number of theories

that are validated and reported and one of them is that JC Treder, who was the former president of the NFLPA as a player, who became the the chief strategy officer who handpicked Lloyd Howell to be the executive director was caught in those documents in the discovery the expedited discovery the text the emails the transcripts to be trashing Russell Wilson and to be blaming him for not getting the full guaranteed contract that the NFLPA wanted and instead what happened was oh it was revealed that the owners were found to have been in communication with each other and with the NFL around an attempt

to prevent full guarantees from being given out. But what J.C. Treder said was used against the NFLPA in that arbitration proceeding. And so what does that mean? It means that J.C. Treder, who has designs, we also report to be the head of the union. And Dan, this is a job that's only been held by a handful of people, literally. It's like Gene Upshaw and D. Smith and Lloyd Howell, right? There's a short list of guys, a

couple other names on there. It's a long term forever job that J.C. Treder wanted. He wanted to suppress this whole thing because that made him look bad. That's one part of it. The other part, this whole thing started because of the Demora Smith regime, which was way more adversarial with the league. Lloyd Howell was the go along to get along guy, a corporate executive who was meant to be friendly, sort of restart relations with the NFL. So this was a win in our view, in my view, in Florio's view, for the previous regime of the union, not the current one, which came in

with a whole different strategy. So it wasn't a win for them. And then I think third and most generously, they thought that if we keep this quiet and do this thing with the NFL confidentiality agreement, of course now known, then this is gonna pay off for the union long-term. The problem of course is that that third most generous theory is also now repudiated by the fact that they just appealed the bleeping ruling. So already

I just don't see any ground for this regime to stand on, even hypothetically, which is also kind of mind-blowing. Hey everybody it's Mike down here in South Florida as the audience well knows we've been celebrating a proper championship time Like most of the fun memories I've had as an adult, Miller Lite has been right there by my side, supplementing every experience. And now that I'm about to travel during the summer, you can rest assured I'm going to be having plenty of Miller Lite along the way, because that's what summer is all about. And since 1975, Miller Lite has been right there in all those memories for you listening right now.

It's the 50th anniversary of Miller Lite. That's 50 years of great taste, great friends, great moments. Miller Lite, great taste, 96 calories. Go to MillerLite.com slash Dan to find delivery options near you, or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. Cheers to 50 years of Miller time. Celebrate responsibly Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee,, Wisconsin 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. Alright everybody, this is a wild one.

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to get 150 bucks in bonus bets instantly when you bet just five bucks only on DraftKings. The crown is yours. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler in New York call 877 8 open wire text open wire 4 6 7 3 6 9 in Connecticut help is available for problem gambling call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resorting Kansas 21 and over agent eligibility varies by jurisdiction void in Ontario Bonus bets expire seven days after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources see DKNG.co slash audio. Don LeBattard. I win in the margins I'm like I'm like your money ball of sex I'm basically Scott Hattaberg. A lot of walks but I'm on

base when it comes to sex a lot of other other, they can be Giambi. You know your role. You play. I know my role. This is the Dine LeBattar show with the StuGuard. So take me through how average football players supposed to feel if your original theory is right, which is this was kept confidential because one of the people Representing the players didn't want to look bad to the players or to anybody So he ceases to represent the players and is now just representing himself It is a breach of frankly fiduciary duty You are a union your job in a legal, professional,

ethical sense is to represent your constituents, your players. And here you have one example, a concrete example, among others of self-interest personally overriding collective self-interest. Right? And so this is unfortunately something that unions in America and particularly this one in the NFL have been battling for decades But in this case you have it so crystal clear 4k quality Documented that I think if you're a player Frankly, if you're a player who signed a new deal in 2021 when all this stuff was happening

It's about the offseason of 2021 where guys getting guarantees. The answer turns out was no, full guarantees. No, no one got them. They should be contemplating what is our legal recourse? I've talked to lawyers now who are wondering when is the next shoe to drop going to be a lawsuit? When will, I mean, I don't want to get ahead of myself here because we're still reporting the story. Justin Herbert could sue the league, could sue the union, could he not?

Justin Herbert, who is named in the text exchange between Michael Bidwell and Dean Spanos, Dean Spanos the owner of the Chargers, Bidwell the Cardinals owner, in which they are basically celebrating how they didn't give Kyler Murray full guarantees, which then helps Dean Spanos and the Chargers to not give Justin Herbert the full guarantees. Yeah, I would I would imagine that guy logically would have a bone to pick, especially Dan, the extra layer of crazy on all of this is that those players that we've been naming and this is Lamar Jackson, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray and Justin Herbert, the four big

stars named in this thing. They were never told or shown what was in the document that was about their livelihoods until I published it. They had never heard it. The Union had never told them. They had never shown them. And so there is actively, I think, a would-be grievance if they choose to pursue it. But also, also clearly the union is behind the scenes on fire right now in every figurative sense and I think everyone's running around trying to cover their own ass. It would make sense. I pointed out yesterday that Peyton Manning's original contract had zero guaranteed dollars

in it. Brock Purdy's has 70% guaranteed dollars in it and because of this, I've never seen Andrew Hawkins take more notes, and I don't think he's taking notes because he has any questions for Pablo Torre. I think it's because he's got questions for his friends and colleagues and union representatives. I see him taking a lot of notes here,

but I don't think he wants to ask any questions here. I think he might have questions for others, though. I welcome Andrew's thoughtful silences. Hawke's thoughtful note taking silently is meaningful just because all I actually want then is for players to hear this, to see the reporting, to make a judgment for themselves. Again, I am not here to say, trust me, I got this period.

I'm saying, look at the document I published. Look at the interviews we did. Look at the reporting. Now look at Don Van Nette, look at Kaylin Keller, look at ESPN wading into the waters. Why is this happening? Just ask yourself, why is this happening? And consider what it costs.

And by the way, as I believe Hawk is aware, there is a CBA renegotiation coming up in 2030. And those things start years before, right? The setting of the table, the gaining of leverage, the angling in the public for what to do and how to win what the NFL owners are very loathe to give, which is a percentage point of power, right? That process, if time keeps on wearing on here the players are actively losing money by not dealing with this because it feels inevitable that they're gonna have to what do you believe will be the end point on this and in your wildest dreams the most seismic of scenarios that results from your reporting is blank. I think

inevitably there'll be a change in leadership at the NFLPA. I just think that the smoke is too obvious. Wow, so you think that Lloyd Howell will his job will be affected by your reporting? You're going for that Peabody huh? By the way this is a pretty like warm to like kind of lukewarm take. I think that's obvious at this point. The Peabody? All of it. All of it. No look, Lloyd Howell man, separately and we haven't even gotten into this part, there's a separate investigation into this whole other business that the NFLPA is embroiled in, which is called the One Team sort of enterprise.

This is the Tony Clark thing with the MLBPA and all that stuff. Lloyd Howell is under FBI investigation right now for a thing that I believe is actually less interesting than what we're talking about right now. That's how this sort of was set up was that was preceding my reporting. So I think Lloyd Howell inevitably cannot sustainably be doing this job. I think that J.C. Treder, who would have been the successor, by the way, in a very

interesting sequence of events, right? Lloyd Howell has to be ousted. Who is the interim executive director? The logical successor might be the guy who installed Lloyd Howell has to be ousted. Who is the interim executive director? The logical successor might be the guy who installed Lloyd Howell with the title that had never before existed in the union of chief strategy officer, who's kind of the guy who's been sliding in the background, but we named it in our reporting. J.C. Tredder, former Cleveland Brown Center, right?

That guy, the question is, would the players install him if they see everything that we have reported? And if it's not him, then the question is who then next? And simultaneous to all of that is the fact that this 61 page document has the NFL owner's nightmare, right? Eight owners, discovery, texts, emails, transcript, Roger Goodell caught on emails with his chief, by the way, his chief lawyer. Then I will say this without too much of a spiking of the football here, who then later, if you look at the timeline, resigned from his job. This is Jeff Pash, the general counsel,

the famous general counsel of the NFL stepped down, resigned after internally, we know this arbitration ruling proceeding was happening in which he was caught on email with roger gaddell effectively doing the thing that gave the union the ammo should they choose to use it to get leverage against the nfl um dan this is i mean when i say that this goes all the way to the top, I mean the NFL itself. When I kind of tongue-in-cheekly observed when I was with you last time, the NFL is monitoring the coverage of the story, what I say about this stuff.

That is not abstract. I can tell you without being too smelling my own farts about this, the stuff I've reported has been consumed by senior vice presidents in the league office Dozens upon dozens of times talking about refreshes. I'm talking about links being sent. I'm talking about conversations behind the scenes This is something that is at the highest levels of the most important popular sport in America And now we're seeing it on delay 15 days later

All of it is leaking out did you answer my question about what the most seismic of the scenarios are because you're saying it's pretty uh... you're saying and just their leadership being blown out at the union you're assuming that that's going to be so so in the wildest of circumstances where this story catches fire and all league partners are forced to report on it what is the most seismic of hypothetical results here i will phrase it more journalistically responsibly but if i was running the union and i got this ruling in which roger goodell was caught saying this stuff

in that coordination with the owners the eight owners who were named in this and others one might presume uh... i would be called for roger gandell's job in coordination with the owners, the eight owners who were named in this and others, one might presume. I would be calling for Roger Goodell's job. Now, will that happen in real time? I doubt that, but that is actively what the leverage that the union might have had here is. They could have gone to Capitol Hill,

they could have called for hearings, they could have made an enormous public display of look at what we're dealing with heading into our next CBA is that the leadership of the NFL itself is doing this stuff. And so I'm not predicting, I'm merely saying that this is actually, concretely, in the document part of the conversation. Wow. Pablo, first of all, you speak English beautifully. Where'd you learn that? I got people in this room that can't speak English as well as you can.

Secondly, I'm kind of disgusted at our recent text exchanges, which is just us bartering. You asked me for contacts to help you find stuff out, and I'm just constantly pitching you stuff to find out. So I'm curious, a lot of your friendships have devolved into people just treating you like Chat GPT, right? And say, hey, find out about this, right? Yeah, I mean, I've been, here's the thing.

I did an episode, the episode I loved, by the way, that we just did on Tuesday was about competitive bird watching, and I think it's one of our greatest episodes you ever done and Nobody gives a shit and so I am Not make me care about birdwatching it has blowjobs jizz Banging it has a chase for ten thousand birds with the guy holding a will chamberlain like sign It says ten000 on it

in a jungle. It has- And that's all just the text message exchange between Pablo and Mike. Yeah, yeah. We didn't even get into the bird watching yet. It's so good in a real way, but no one cares. And so I've been on Twitter bartering to Mike's point,

and I'm like saying, everyone's saying, can you investigate Jeffrey Epstein? And I'm like, everyone's saying can you investigate Jeffrey Epstein and I'm like what about these birds though and And so I've said if everybody watches the bird watching episode on YouTube I will investigate Jeffrey Epstein if that's what it takes What does everybody mean Earth if everyone on Earth watches it? 7.6 billion listens later. It could be someone else's beat find out about the Chris Paul linker's trade No basketball reasons. Yeah, I've been looking into that one. I've been sniffing around that one

But the birds we're talking about a scandal man. We don't in birds as a hawk. I'm interested We don't want to talk about your bird watching episode Pablo Turing finds out though if you want more information about all of his curiosities. It is exceptionally popular. Thank you Pablo. Good seeing you. Good talking to you. Take care.

Thank you guys. And Mike, I'll text you later. This episode is brought to you by Adidas. When the frustration grows and the doubts start to creep in, we all need someone who has our back to tell us we'll be okay. To remind us of our ability to believe. Because their belief in us transfers to self-belief and reminds us of all that we're capable of. We all need someone to make us believe. Hashtag, you got this. Breaking news, McDonald's international menu items are vanishing. McPizza bites missing

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Don LeBattard. Woody, we have a photo right here. If you can see in this photo with my daughter there, I'm pointing exactly to the point on the Stanley Cup where it says, You suck ass. Stugats! Right there. They engraved it. Really? They got that engraved? Yeah, they got it engraved. Right there it says, Chris Whittingham sucks ass. This is the Don Lebatard Show with the Stugats. What do you guys think about Deon Sanders saying that college football needs a salary cap? I mean it is kind of heading that way. Curious like I'm a little worried about

Deon to be honest he stepped away for a little bit this offseason for health reasons and I saw Big 12 media day and he was like drenched in sweat while no one else on the dais was so I was like I was watching that I was a little concerned for Deon he's had some health issues that he's kept pretty private.

We know about the near foot amputation, but there's a lot of stuff going on in the NCAA, and this is an organization that flatly does not win in court. Does not win, which is why they've pivoted to Supreme Court senators, just give us full autonomy, because we're not gonna win, and even now it's being challenged.

I know Cassianos has challenged something. The NCAA doesn't know how to read a room. That's never been their strength. This week the expectation is this week or next that they're going to come down with an announcement in all likelihood to expand March Madness to 70 plus teams. No one wants this. No one wants this. The only people that want this are the power conferences so they can make more money. At what point do you continue alienating your audience? No one even likes the expanded field right now. First four, not something that is hugely interesting.

It's one of the few things that they got right in terms of like the perfect number. I'm really curious to see when they do get granted this because in hiring Charlie Baker they knew exactly what they were going to do. They were going to back channel and politic their way to a win and it's not even like they're doing the work. In fact their most recent plan is we'll let the big conferences self-govern. most recent plan is we'll let the big conferences self govern. Huh? You're gonna let the big ten in SEC make the rules for the big ten in the SEC while you just collect the money because you organize all the non-revenue sports?

Yes is the answer to your question. Greed is gonna win at every turn. There is no amount of dilution that will get in the way of the greed. They will continue to be greedy at every turn, grab as much as they can, and it will be several times beyond where the complaints are on all the dilution before they stop being people who just chase the money and the greed. They are not going to show moderation. They are not going to cut any of these things back.

As long as the television dollars keep increasing, they will continue to dilute product long past the complaints about diluted product. So you salary cap conceivably, you salary cap, does that cap a player's ability to make income on their name, image and likeness outside of the cap? You can have an endorsement deal. I know that Jeremiah Smith just signed

an endorsement deal with Adidas. Does that count for the cap? I know that the school's signed an endorsement deal with Adidas. Does that count for the cap? I know that the school's gonna have the rev share, but as we've even seen with executive orders, these things are gonna get challenged. Even their autonomy is going to get challenged. And if I may, this is a bipartisan issue. Hate for the NCAA reaches across the aisle.

There are plenty of conservative judges that have ruled against the NCAA, more so even than the progressive ones. So I don't really know how this is going to work for the NCAA, but what confounds me, Dan, is the supreme confidence and assertion that we're just headed here. It's going to be rev share, there's going to be some sort of cap, we'll figure out what we do with the non-revenue sports, there'll be kickbacks along the way, there's going to be some sort of cap. We'll figure out what we do with the non-revenue sports. There'll be kickbacks along the way.

There's going to be an NIL clearinghouse. The conferences are going to govern themselves. This machine keeps moving. And if there's ever been a time for the sport, for college athletics to be paused, for everybody to figure this bleep out, it's right now. The tough part is, it seems like the silent fight is that

you're trying to keep the players from being employees. And that is pretty much the thing that is gonna continue to expand all the things that Deion and everyone's complaints are about. They have too much power, there's too much money, it just keeps going up, we need a cap. It's because they're gonna do everything in their power not to call them employees.

Right now they're essentially 1099s, contractors, year to year basis, which should prevent multi-year contracts, which should prevent them telling you quote unquote, how to do the services you're being paid for, and they're trying to dance around that because what comes with that, like you know, is a CBA. What comes with that is restriction.

What comes with that is probably a lot of lawsuits from players and former players that now put you on the hook for injuries that have typically gone to the NFL and or nobody cared about because no one goes back and sues the university because my back is messed up for forever for those four years or my ankles ankles are messed up, or my joints, or concussions. And they're trying in every sense of their power to make it to where the public is going to yell, the players have too much power. Because in that version of it,

it makes it a little bit easier of a process to say, hey, it's not us, it's them, they want it. We just want them to be able to do what they want. We're finally getting it right. That's not what the actual sentiment is. Let me rewind some of this though. The messenger on this is Dion. It is not surprising that Dion would want limits

on the power of others. Dion is about Dion at every turn, and Colorado cannot compete with Texas and Ohio State when it comes to money. So Dion wants a cap. More interesting to me is the idea of a cap in general. Fans love a cap. Athletes would have no reason to love a cap. The baseball salaries are what they are, at least in part because there's not a cap because the owners

can't control themselves and they need a salary cap to control themselves because you see what happens when they collude and can't control themselves. Deshaun Watson gets guaranteed money because someone's desperate for a quarterback and then all of a sudden you get everything we've been talking about today. I don't think there should be salary caps. I understand why there are salary caps. The reason?

The owners cannot control themselves. If Jerry Jones needs a quarterback, he's gonna outspend everyone else for a quarterback if you don't have a salary cap. And that's the reason it exists. It's not for fairness. It's not for any other reason other than the owners want fixed costs.

Like you don't understand the government advantages that these leagues have with their monopolies when they can sit there and limit capitalism. They can limit that these people who are more valuable than the average person can have fixed costs in a draft and not have choices about where they work when they have more choices than the average employee anywhere in employment under normal circumstances that don't have limits. But so that you understand why the salary cap exists, it's twofold. One, the owners can't control themselves and

two, the owners know how to always beat the players when it comes to collectively bargained partnerships because they can do things like what we've been talking about for two hours here, where you get the confidentiality agreement from the head of the players union instead of the players union getting all of the information that they need.

All too often, it's not just sports. It's capitalism for me, but not necessarily for the labor force, which I find curious. Danny White, who I think is one of the information that they need. All too often it's not just sports. It's capitalism for me, but not necessarily for the labor force, which I find curious. Danny White, who I think is one of the more bright administrators in the sport, did a great job with UCF, is now at Tennessee. He spoke to Yahoo Sports, and he's really one of the first administrators to invoke CBAs,

Collective Bargaining Agreement, which many schools may think opens up a can of worms. But this is what he told Yahoo Sports. In his model, college athletics would in fact not be employees of their schools, but a structure that calls for the creation of a national employment organization that partners with a players association,

perhaps one already formed in the professional leagues. That's interesting, especially since the main revenue generator is football, and the NFL and its PA has a free minor league system. Do they actually contribute something to the pot? That's something interesting. Modernize an improved ecosystem for football and men's basketball players, the two main revenue sports. Collective bargaining and employment status shouldn't be seen as negative terms. That's something he's going to run up against a lot of opposition from fellow administrators.

I think there's a lot of people who think the same way that I do. We can go another three or five or even 10 years of this difficult environment or we can accept the reality and fix it right now. 10 years, I think we're all going private equity firms and super league anyways, Hawk. I mean, it's going to have to separate because that's the other part of the cap where the other reason is teams and markets and franchises who might not have the same access to funds have to compete against each other and it's just naturally harder,

even in the open market outside of sports. Think about any industry, the media industry. If said media company has way more money to pay talent, they'll always get the highest paid and the guys and girls that bring in The most amount of money versus a smaller media company because we don't have the amount of money to pay the salaries That the big guys have right are we competing against each other? I guess indirectly but they're in these leagues There's a literal competition against each other

And so there has to be a separation between the people who have and the people that don't. Mike, do you have any information whatsoever on why it is that Wisconsin is suing the University of Miami over Xavier Lucas? So Wisconsin, number one, needs to get their own house in order because they have recruiting violations that they need to worry about.

And big 10 has already sent out a press release whilst doing nothing. I think this is more about tone setting and trying it just in, in a private world, in a civil suit. I don't see a scenario ever in which Xavier Lucas leaves the university of Miami. I do know that for all their barking, and they've done a lot of barking, which is also hypocritical because how'd you get one of your better volleyball players from the University of Miami, Wisconsin?

Are you covering your mouth right now? What happened? You didn't want people to hear that? Well, it's just he happened to know there, but he wanted to show. Nobody would know who it is. There was an awesome volleyball player that... Did you happen to know? I know that we had an awesome volleyball player that found its way to that found their way to Wisconsin on a second

Oh My god, he knows Come everyone come and listen He happens to know well informed Obviously you don't want to be sued ever, but I feel pretty good already with the precedent just with this Xavier Lucas case, and you can Google it for yourself,

that this one's kind of been done and dusted. I think this is more about trying to establish a precedent because it- What happened? What happened is, the argument is Wisconsin argues that they had a contract with the player that out of the other side of their mouth says we don't have contracts with our players because they're not employees. It's weird because you're trying to enforce language that goes against your greater argument.

He happens to know. They want these things to be totally binding. Which I guess you can understand. There was another AD, I forget the name, oh it was the Ohio State Athletic Director that said we want a real market in the transfer market. Basically we want to know what everybody is offering so we can't be negotiated with without seeing the number.

You can understand that, it's fair, this person's telling seeing the number. Right. You can understand that. It is fair. This person's telling me a number. That's advantageous for the university for sure. Right. So are we going to do this with the ADs and the coaches? Have some sort of portal where we see exactly what the offer is from another school? Or are we going to ruin what is a negotiation tactic across America? Do you mind pausing just so that Roy has enough room to do that? Oh my god, he knows Just can you just leave occasional pauses around the happens to know so that Roy can keep hearing something that appears to be Tickling Tony like every time Tony God, he knows the thing the thing that I'm noticing every time is that Chris did that in his kitchen

While not trying to not be heard by his wife. It's embarrassing. He didn't eat it. The raw cut of that file, I should grab that. The thing that I, the reason I'm laughing every time is that Roy plays it and I'm imagining Chris bent over like behind the door under the sink trying to hide the echoing of his voice from his wife.

So wise. Basically what Wisconsin is trying to argue is if you have some kind of NIL deal, which also blows up their pay for play rules because they're not technically supposed to have these things, if you have a deal with us, you shouldn't be allowed to change your mind and say, not for me, I wanna go elsewhere.

You can't break this. But they're also not employees. They're trying to enforce employee rules for people that aren't actually employees. For a few products, got a 1099 contract. Exactly. Yeah. Come everyone, come and listen.

He was in his kitchen on his hands and knees. He could smell the dish rack hiding from his wife! He happens to know? Great Scott, he happens to know! He happens to know. Gather everyone! Get the children! He happens to know! So wise.