The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - Hour 1: The Big One (feat. Jeff Pearlman)

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

"I know you like the journalism." Jeff Pearlman has appeared 9 times on the New York Times Bestseller List, and he's here to share some incredible Dallas Cowboys details from his reporting, but he's not Ron Perlman, and that's left Tony WILDLY disappointed. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great. great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. This is the Dan Levatore show with the Stugats podcast. Mark your calendars. Monday, August 25th, the Suey Awards return, presented by Miller Light. It's the only award show where bad takes win big, and the winners make no sense whatsoever. I was howling with laughter, listening.

to our voice. Have we announced who the voice of this year's suey's is? I mean, it's the same host as last few years. Okay. You sound really excited about that. No, I am. I'm just like. Completely total indifference. You made it, you almost built it up like it's some big announcement. It's my dad. That's a big announcement, and you should be excited about this year's sueyes. We've had an assortment of very famous voices, and it's a nice distinction that has been given over to your father that you should honor with more respect than you presently show.

Chris, is this because he ranks last among the fame of the voices? Well, I think Dan's thinking of the looks like, who we've had a lot of voices do. The sueyes have just been poppy and my dad. Yeah. I also think, though, that your disrespect for your father is profound, and you don't appreciate what I was appreciating yesterday. It was funny. Which is he kept messing things up. He'd get mad at himself.

And he reminded me of a number of wonderful memories that I'd forgotten about over the last year because consistently the sueyes are among the best things that we do. And Greg's voice, he was tired yesterday. He was doing a lot of, that's a big lift, but he's honored to be a part of it. There was an opening number. Like, I don't want to give to me any spoilers away, but on Monday you want to tune in. So he's doing like a Billy Crystal kind of deal? There's the, I don't want to give any spoilers, but just tune in Monday at the start of the sueyes.

There's going to be an opening number, someone would say. Just to close a loop here on a couple of things we've been talking about both locally. and nationally, Taylor Twelman says that when contacted by the athletic, a league cup spokesperson, has confirmed what it is that Zazlo already reported.

The inner Miami head coach was located in a space designated according to tournament regulations. Cell phone communications are not prohibited per league cup regulations in this instance. It's so stupid. I mean, think about this. All right. The referee can

throw the manager out. But no, he's not really throwing the manager out. The referee is telling the manager, you now have to sit in the front row with a cell phone. That's literally what the red card means. Well, the story's been confirmed. It was broken originally here by Zaslo. And congratulations, Zaslo.

Taylor Twelman is chasing you on this story. The athletic is chasing you on this story. Show some integrity. Mention me when you put your report in there. As heard first by Zaslo. Yes, please. Let's go. Let's give credit in the proper places.

also, Mike Ryan, do we know if Cameron Ward has changed his name for commercial purposes because there's also a Carolina hurricane named Cam Ward and he doesn't want any confusion there. There is. In fact, that Cam Ward who played for a Hurricanes team put out a funny video when Cameron Ward got drafted. So I do think that some of that is at play, yeah. But it's actually very, very much so the cliche. His mama called him Cameron. His mama made the request.

Zaslow has vetoed his mama's request. I'm not comfortable. It's a Broncos week one, and then he's going to call him Cameron. I'm no longer comfortable quoting Eddie Murphy as one of the guys in the barbershop in coming to America. That doesn't seem to be a – I gave you too much liberty there, and I think I need to take that back. Sounds like you're trying to file some kind of appeal, and I'm not going to hear it. Well, you're deciding over Cameron Ward's mama. Yeah.

She's not here in this court. Look, the Cam Ward that played for the Hurricanes, legend. Stanley Cup winner. No one's confusing the two. But the change is being made just because an adult has wanted to change his name or back to what it was originally or because it's a marketing opportunity and you need to separate these two people because the Google searches have to produce just one of them. So the initial request that came from the family for award season was because it was important to the family. But I think you'd have to be naive to not highlight the Cam Newton and Cam Ward stuff.

Enough of the changing names. When I was mentioning the Rich Eisen thing to you guys before and nostalgia in general that is being partaking in in this Cowboys documentary that we're going to talk about with Jeff Perlman here in a little bit because the Cowboys documentary on Netflix has a whole lot. Oh, we're talking to Jeff Perlman. Gotcha. I thought it was Ron Perlman. I was like, dude, I want to talk to you about the UFC voiceovers. Sons of anarchy. Come on.

I thought it was Ron Perlman. I got a picture with that. guy at a Radio Row. Hell yet. I love Sons of Annery. That's the guy with the face, right? Yeah. Hellboy.

It's not a face. It's a square head, right? It's not, it's not. No, it's a face. It's chiseled. The face is chiseled. Beauty and the Beast, right? Beauty and the Beast.

There's two guys you say that about. It's that guy and the guy from Sumb 41. Jeff's cool to. So not Ron. Okay, got you. God, that would have been awesome if you just asked them. But Bill Henry, that was back on February 25th, 2015. If you're remembering back the Henry Walker game, it was two threes and

the final 22 seconds in his fifth day of a 10-day contract to tie the game at 84 to go to overtime. Make me calm, Bill. With Alfred Peyton's magic. Make me calm, Bill. Can you, Tony, can you just do the same prep that you did? For Jeff? Yeah. Can you just ask Jeff the questions you're going to ask Ron? Yeah, for sure. Okay. Dan, is that a cool? Yes. I don't want, I know you're, you're like the, the journalism and he writes a lot of books here. It'll be a funny game. I'm looking at, I'm looking at his thing. I appreciate you articulate. He's written 17 books and, okay, great, cool. Does he do UFC voiceovers, though? I don't know.

17 books. What do you have to say? Tony, I will, yeah, I will say that Jeff Perlman is exciting to me. Ron Perlman would be much more exciting to the audience. His face is unlike. Does he look like a cat? It's unlike any face in the history of Hollywood, I would say. There's a square footage in the face. It's not the just...

Small forehead, though. But look, the distinct. look of Hellboy. I think that people think that Hellboy's face, I don't know how much time he spent in makeup. It must have been a great deal. But when you see Hellboy, you see that man's face and it's because you see his character in his face because he's got an unusual head and face. It's an unbelievable amount of surface area

and there's no one else like it in Hollywood, right? I think Batista's head has a little bit of this. But he's bald though, so he doesn't have the hair, right? I think Ron Perlman's hair also like makes it squid. Yeah, Batista's head's pretty round these days. I know but just, yes, but such, so distinctive, I'm saying that it's unlike any other person. It's not even a movie star

face anymore you're talking about it. It's a movie star head. How much makeup do you think that required? Very little. You can I only see him. Like, I don't see Hellboy. Looks like it's just a little sunburn. If you're a hand, you do the Randy Scott, right? Like, you just go to bed like that

and then you wake up the next day. Like, just do some touch-ups. Like, we're not doing 14 hours of Make a full shower. I saw Colin Farrell, like, did 14 hours a day for the penguin. You're a movie star. Who wants to do that for 14 hours a day to totally distort the way that you look? I got a nap like this. Like, I'll come back tomorrow.

We just touch up what we can and we'll start from there. We're not doing this every day, eight hours of makeup. That's insane. The Dan Levitart Show with Stugats is sponsored by Liquid Ivy. All right. So I'm trying to soak up the last little bits of summer while raising a six-month-old baby. Let me tell you, being a dad to a baby that loves waking up around 3 o'clock in the morning, every single day is exhausting. And I find myself in the middle of the night, parched.

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21 and over, age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction, Void in Ontario. Bonus bets expires seven days after issuance. Four additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng.com slash audio. Don Lebertard. Go ahead, Billy. Ask him your question.

Is gymnastics possibly good? Oh, wow. Stugats. I got some fleb in my mouth, yeah. It's okay. Yeah. Is gymnastics possibly corrupt? This is the Don Lebatar show with a Stugat.

You mentioned Colin. I'm doing a rewatch of 2006 as Miami Vice. Wow. Now, articles have been written about how this set was plagued by Michael Man just being Michael Man. It was plagued by its director. Jamie Fox at one point, I have to remind my mind. constantly while watching the movie. Jamie Fox is in this, right? That's because the headliner is Colin Farrell. Sub-headliner is Colin Farrell's hair. His hair is so good in

this movie, and this is p-coked out Colin Farrell. It just oozes off. Oh, the best. Well, wait a minute, but hold on a second. You can't do. You can't do that. Seems reckless. Time to throw away all journalistic credibility and get reckless. Here is something we like to call reckless speculation. You guys think it's a reckless accusation to accuse Colin Farrell of cocaine in the mid-2000s? Yeah. All right. Sure.

Whatever you say, pal. He's cop to it. This hair is unbelievable. It makes up for a movie that makes no sense. Why would Michael Mann want to make Miami Vice look like crap and not have any Cubans in it? In fact, the only time that they're Cubans in it is when Sonny says, I'm a fiend for most of. Pitos. And the Chinese lady's like, I know where we can get one. And it's Havana, Cuba. Wow. He didn't bring a change of clothes. He's just in his suit. They go, they bang. Weird

sex scenes in the director's cut. It's not even passionate. Music, it's early 2000s alt rock, you know, that dip. After new metal, where do we go? Let's just bring on non-point. It doesn't make any sense. It's not even a Miami Vice movie. They just slapped on Miami Vice because this is a movie that Michael Mann wanted to make. All right, Mike. What the hair? I don't know if you ever got to Eddington, and I don't know if Mike's movie reviews.

Like, you wanted to do heat. I don't know why it is that all of a sudden we're doing 2006 Michael Mann, Miami Vice movie reviews. Have you watched Edding yet? It's available for digital renting now. Nah, I got to wait until it's free streaming. I pay too much, man. I saw Eddington for the second time. We all covered.

I don't know if you were here, Dan. I thought someone was going to shoot me in my movie theater when I saw Eddington the first. This, Mike had a very scary movie theater experience. Yeah, a dude walked in with a suitcase and he was making noises the entire. He walked in in the middle of the screening. And you stayed? Got up, no, the entire theater was just paralyzed by fear. There's not a lot of exits, right?

No, no, he was blocking the exit. And then when he left, he also left in the middle of it. He did like a full circle around his seat, which was a standalone seat, and he grabbed his suitcase and the wheels were squeaking. I miss the entire Austin Butler monologue, which I caught on second viewing. Eddington, great film, film of the year so far. Did it end up just being someone, though, who came straight from the airport to the movie theater, and they just had a suitcase? I don't think people do that. He had overalls, like, and a fisherman cap. It looked like, is this a marketing stunt? What is happening right now? And you were able to tell everyone in the theater was worried.

He was coughing the entire time, and it's a movie about COVID, so I thought, like, this This was a marketing stunt to terrify me. Anyways, second viewing, though, at Joaquin Phoenix can act. He is pretty good, and he's also terrible in every appearance being interviewed that I've ever seen of him. He's one of the strangest actors we've ever had, and that's keeping company with Daniel Day Lewis. You're not going to believe this. Pedro Pascal's in it. A real stunner. is he's uh Pedro Pascal is having the giant summer of uh I guess it's longer than a summer

now right it's in terms of a star turn he's got what he's gotten over the last 18 months where I'm seeing him on the movie poster for Gladiator with Denzel I'm like okay this is a climb this is a climb this is a climb to a place that I was not expecting movie stars to be able to do this I didn't I thought we'd stop doing that with movie stars audiences love Addies and he is a bona fide daddy you guys mentioned andrew luck earlier and i wanted to ask you guys a question to see if it's one of the things that's happening with arch manning a reminder that jeff perlman not ron perlman will be on with us a bit uh stephen a smith will be on with us as well uh later in the show you guys are delighted that the idea you could be listening to this no but tell me what

happened because the the delight that you guys had in tony discovering two hours into our show that he thought we were going to be talking to Ron Perlman. And instead we were talking to Jeff Perlman. It was just an honest like, what? Oh, man. Were you preparing questions for? Yeah, yeah. When the UFC reaches out to you, like, do you read the script?

Do you have any notes for the script? Like, you voice him so well. Do you have any input? It's a better interview. Thank you. You wait until we do. Jeff could be fine. Yeah, we're going to crush him.

No, for sure. I just thought it was wrong. Jeff could be fine. He's been out a couple times. We'll go after Ron. You guys all want to talk about Ron, though. The makeup, does he take it off? Does he not? That'll be my first question to Jeff.

I wanted to take you back to the conversation that we were having about sports media members who have a relationship with their audiences and what I was saying about Rich Eisen. And you saw what CBS is doing in week three. We're always making fun around here about how CBS does not know how to keep up with the young people. It's always murder she wrote. and it's always some sort of program for 60 and 70-year-olds. CSI, number one show in America. I've never met a person who said, hey, do you see his week's CSI? No, Stan Van Gundy and my dad love it.

My parents give me updates every Saturday and Sunday. They're watching Colombo. This is absolutely a demo that works, but as CBS tries to get younger, because they've always had the oldest of the pregame shows, have you seen their week three idea, which is a good one? Has anyone heard what their week three ideas, idea is on how CBS is going to compete with the other morning shows. I don't know how Fox is going to be impacted by Jimmy Johnson no longer being there, but these television entities have been

together for a long time bringing you football. They're the same people that are bringing you football largely every week with a few rotating cast members, but CBS has tried. They've gone through Shannon Sharp. They've gone through Dan Marino. They've gone through Tony Gonzalez. They're trying to get younger over there. So how are they doing it in week three? Brent Musburger, they are bringing back the original show that they did a million years ago. And the way to do it is add Jimmy the Greek. Now you got me. If you add Jimmy the Greek, now I really want to watch.

I don't know if Jimmy the Greek is still with us, though. Diet on April 21st, 1996. I'm going to say there's no way, right? Are you guys interested in a recreation? Tony, do you even know what we're talking about? Just ignore it. We got three minutes to go. Yeah, I remember seeing some sort of 30 for 30, and Jimmy the Greek was like one of their, you know, one of the main things.

I don't remember exactly which one it was. So what do you know about Jimmy the Greek? He was, was he Greek? I don't know if he was even Greek, right? He's the Greek. Thank you for asking Tony this. No, but he was like a basically like a handicapper. The reason that I bring it up.

The first one on TV ever, right? Yes, that is correct. But do you know anything else about Jimmy the Greek? That kind of thing. Okay, good. So the history alludes you. Jimmy the Greek got fired because he made some sort of comments that mentioned why the black athlete was better than the white athlete. And he brought up the points of slavery and some other things.

Again, I just disgraced. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. He also changed his name. He was born Demetrios, Georgios Sinodinos, and chased it to James George Snyder Sr. You're going to call him James? This is how we roll around here, baby. Jeremy Tashay's pitch clock toward the end of the show, Stephen A. Smith is going to be with us before that.

Ron Perlman. Ron Perlman is not going to be on with us. We're efforting. Tony, is there someone else you wish Stephen A. Smith were? No, Stephen A. Smith? No. Absolutely not. The goat. Mike, I want you to sit back there, and I want you to control everything that's happening here. And I want you to just get us as quickly as you can to Jeff Perlman, who is not Ron Perlman. Can you get us there as we crawl on our knees toward the end of this segment? You know what? Let's go now. Jeff's ready.

Billy, do you have anything? You seem to be delighted. Did you trip a wire? Well, no, because what's going on here is they're investigating this one. We didn't get this is a false. This might be the big one, guys. Okay, so this is the big one. This might be it. They said we're investigating this one. You know what? Let's go to break. There is. Okay, they're talking in English and Spanish. We have not heard that before. No, this is new. What are they investigating? Let's find out offline. Let's find out off air, shall we? Don Lebertard.

I always trip out when guys are, man, you know, Officer Tackle, man, the hardest player. I said, please, man, your job, you a fat 300 pounder. All you have to do is stay in front of another fat 300 pounder for three seconds. For three seconds. For three seconds. One fat 300, other fat 300, stand in front of a three seconds. Mean.

Me. Stugats. I got to go out here. I got a fighter dude to come off the line of script. just to get into my route, go run a route, fake another dude out, go turn, catch a ball that's being projected down the field fast, flying somewhere between heaven and earth, snatch it out to out, mid-ow, come down, put my foot on the ground, all while somebody trying to take my head off, and I don't get a cheer till I get in the end zone.

I'm like, please, come on, man, let's be real. show with the Stucats. So Pablo Tori is the 50 cent of journalism. Pablo, anything you need for me, baby. We're all here for you. We got your back. You reach out. So here's the

thing. Are you smarter than an NFL QB? What do you know about the world of birdwatching Colognes and perfumes by celebrities or Bill Belichicks Airbnb girl? You might as well tell me now. As Bobo Tori finds out, no doubt, you can't hide the truth from me.

Girl, you might as well tell me now, as Bobo Tori finds out, no doubt, you can't hide the truth from me. Is Yonis missing free throws for free chicken? Is our next president an alien and Russell Wilson? Why does the FBI director play so much hockey? Was Malik Beasley gambling before Milwaukee? Want to hear about the NFLPA or salaries in the WNBA. The Knicks failed LeBron recruitment tape. Did you know that TRL was fake, girl, you might as well tell me now.

As Bob Mottori finds out, no doubt, you can't hide the truth from me, girl, you might as well tell me now. Jeff Perlman is not Ron Perlman much to Tony's chagrin and disappointment. but Jeff Perlman is a 17-time author. All his books are great, exhaustively reported. And, Tony, I may be able to get you interested here. His next one's on Tupac. So when he writes about stuff, he digs in really deep, talks to a whole bunch of people. And I wanted to get him on because I saw episode two last night of the Cowboys dock,

and I felt some of the NFL video influence on this a little bit. and it was a little softer than I thought we were headed. I'm sure the bad stuff is up ahead, but I have not seen the entirety of the documentary. I have read the entirety of Jeff Perlman's book on the Cowboys, which I assume is the starting point on how it is that they're doing this documentary. So, Jeff, thank you for joining us. Always enjoy your work.

Also enjoy his YouTube stuff where he's a master storyteller, so he's doing some good and fun and creative stuff on YouTube as well. But what was your take here, Jeff, is the – have you seen the entire documentary? Does it ring authentic on some of the stuff you were reporting about? I mean, it definitely rings authentic if you believe Jerry Jones is the greatest thing to ever happen to football, and nothing better has ever happened to football than Jerry Jones, who's the greatest thing to ever happen to football? So if that is your stance, 100% yes.

All right. So what's flawed about what's being, seems like, universally celebrated, but I would have guessed probably pales in comparison to your book? You know, I guess it's a couple of things. I'm not saying it's not entertaining or good TV. I think early on they way undersell Jimmy Johnson's impact. In particular, the Herschel Walker trade, which is skimmed over, but which is the trade that completely and totally remade the franchise.

And number one, you would think it was Jerry Jones's idea and you would think it was Jerry Jones's implementation when 99.9% of everything that happened with that trade was Jimmy Johnson and then Mike Lynn, the Vikings general manager, screwing up. And also number two, and a small thing that they skipped over completely that I was surprised, is they talk about Trey Aikman's arrival in Dallas.

And they leave out completely that that same year, there was a supplemental draft where the Dallas Cowboys took Steve Walsh, Jimmy Johnson's quarterback out of Miami, and they had this challenge, his head-to-head challenge, that Walsh was winning, and that Jimmy Johnson really wanted Trey Akeman to feel uncomfortable and feel challenged by Steve Walsh. And then they turned, they flipped Steve Walsh to the Saints

for all these more picks. Another thing that Jimmy Johnson did completely and totally left out of the whole thing. And since I'm on a little rant, I will say lastly, I didn't need a dollar for this. I didn't need attention. I didn't need to be in it. But I do feel like we live in an age where intellectual property is being completely ignored and nobody really seems to care that there's a source material for stuff and it's never for AI is doing this all the time with books now where just gobb was up books, spits out the

information you don't even know where it came from. And I do feel like there is a lot of stuff in this series that. originated with my reporting. All right, so that I may offer some of this to the audience because all of his books are excellent, but one of the things that he did in his Cowboys book that floored me, because when I was reading it, I'm like, wait a minute, what happened here with the Cowboys and how does no one know about this? Michael Irvin basically should have been charged with attempted murder on a teammate because he went after an offensive line with a pair of scissors and just got him near the jugular, like arguing over seniority and haircuts.

should have been charged with murder from the reporting of Jeff Perlman. How do they attack this story on Netflix? Because like I said, I have not gotten to the other six parts of this story. But the content dilution of Hollywood makes this stuff. So in exchange for access, you get diluted versions of the story. This story, I only read in your book. I didn't know how you got anybody to talk about this. Yeah.

I mean, it would have been attempted murder, not murder, because Everett McIver, the lineman, he stabbed in the neck with the scissors did not die. And originally in the local Dallas newspapers, it was reported as there was this mis-tap and there was this exchange and blah, blah, blah, blah, but everyone's okay. And I had, I think it was Kevin Smith, the cowboy defensive back, who said to me first, he's like, you know about the scissors, right? And I'm like, not really. He's like, oh, you need to know about the scissors.

And then I kept talking to people. And basically, Michael Irvin, Everett McIver, an offensive lineman on the team is sitting in a barber chair, in training camp and they bring in Vinnie the barber to cut hair and Michael Irvin walks in and McIver's in the seat and Michael Irvin says seniority and McIver's like, I'm in the seat. He's like, yo, seniority. And Everick McIver is not a rookie at this point. And all the other guys in the room are like, yo, Everett, don't leave the chair. Don't leave the chair.

And Irvin's like, get the half out of the chair. And he, they, Ever McIver stands up, shoves Michael Irvin. Michael Irvin shoves him back, grabs Vinnie's barber scissors, stabs Ever McIver in the neck. Every McIver falls to the floor, bleeding. out of his neck. They rush in paramedics and part of the deal, ultimately, because Michael Irvin was already on probation, is if he gets caught for this, he is going to prison. This is a clear violation of probation once you get charged. Probably. And I'm just being honest. Just being honest, I'll never hear me. Like the, I wrote a book about the 86 match. ESPN did a 30 for 30.

They interviewed me at length. It was a beautiful project. I was really happy with it. I didn't make a dime. I don't care about making a dime. But I reported the hell out of that. Like, I reported the hell out of that. I spent weeks of my life reporting on that. And when a documentary comes along and doesn't add all credit source material, just as an author and speaking for other authors, it does bother you a little bit, just be honest. It's okay. I was laughing more at the idea that Michael Irvin would have violated his probation by trying to stab a teammate in the neck with scissors in the jugular. It was a moment. It was a moment. Well, does the documentary feel sanitize to you? Or like when you say you're on a rant, do you feel like you're getting an

honest version or you're just simply getting what Jerry Jones wants us to eat as part of his marketing and propaganda arm? I feel there's a lot. They did a lot of amazing work with the footage. They did an amazing work with a lot of the guys they had come and said to Steve Berline is interviewed. I mean, that was a random and interesting poll. Charles Haley sat down. You don't see him do that many interviews. Like they did, they definitely did the work. Like to give them credit, they gave the work. They did the work. They put it in an entertaining documentary. I just think Jerry Jones, like the Cowboys have not won in 30 years. They haven't sniffed a Super Bowl in 30 years.

And this idea, here's a success story of the NFL because his franchise is worth a ton of money and Jerry Jones is worth a ton of money and he got his family involved when the number one problem with the Cowboys for the last decade at least is that Jerry Jones is making all the decisions and he's never been good in making football decisions. And that feels very, very sanitized. Just being honest. Jeff, is there anyone that you weren't able to get on the record when you wrote, boys will be boys that maybe this series is going to have? Have you seen her?

I didn't get Aikman. Trey Aikman wouldn't talk to me. So I didn't get Trey Aikman. So that was, and he's a big part of it. And he's great in the series. Again, they got a lot of really good people. They got Emmett. They got Aikman. They got Irvin. They got Haley. They got Jerry. They got Switzerland. They got Jimmy. Like they did their work. I give them much credit for that. So it's not about that, to be honest. And I don't want to discredit them there, Jeff. but when Jerry Jones signs up for the story of his life while he feels like he's overcoming cancer and says, hey, one last time, let's tell this story. Of course everyone's going to participate, just like Apple and Kraft got everyone to participate there. What did you make of the way the story is told?

Because what I was saying yesterday is it seemed like Jerry Jones, in his own documentary, with good amount of control over what he was doing, decided to give Jimmy Johnson more credit than Bob Kraft was giving Bill Bell. a check in the 10-part series they did. Yeah. No, he gave Jimmy Johnson credit. I just think, I honestly God, if we're all being honest here, Jerry Jones is very wise to buy the Cowboys. It's a great investment. Interestingly, Donald Trump, when Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys, Donald Trump said he overpaid and the franchise is never going to be worth what he thought,

which I always thought was funny. He deserves a lot of credit for buying the franchise. Not at Jimmy Johnson, everything Jimmy Johnson did was masterful. Like everything. To be honest, if you want to write, if you want to do a documentary about this era, it should be called how Jimmy Johnson changed the franchise and everything he did from the rehearsal trade to the Steve Walls trade everything he did the pressure on players and Jerry Jones was a really savvy owner who put a lot of money into the franchise and has made himself an Uber

Uber billionaire but the football story itself is Jimmy Johnson wise drafts savvy trades Jeff do people understand how crazy Charles Haley was no no I mean in the way I feel bad I have actually said in the past that I feel like in a lot of ways ways, that's one part of my book that I have some regret over because he was battling severe mental illness. And I just wasn't mature enough or smart enough when I was writing that book to really delve into it. But he was a guy who during meetings was, I mean, he was pleasuring himself during meetings. He shows up and he's under a blanket listening to whoever's giving a talk, pleasuring himself. And also they touch on this a little bit,

which I thought was good. His ruthlessness toward teammates, the cruelty he used to bring toward teammates. Chad Hennings, an old defensive lineman, was a really good example. Like, he could just be ruthlessly mean and also as wildly unpredictable as you can find. Did you feel or see any sanitizing, Jeff? Did they talk about the mental illness involving pleasuring himself in meetings? Like what? Because I saw a little bit of what they did with Charles Haley and they went around the fringes of it. And they did say he urinated on an assistant coach's desk.

He tried to fight a head coach. But the Charles Haley stories were legendary well beyond that. Yeah, no. Actually, it's funny. I just thought it's my favorite Haley story. and it's kind of light humor is when the Dallas Mavericks drafted Jamal Mashburn and Jamal Mashburn comes to town and they give him a tour of the cowboy facility to meet the Cowboys, just a PR thing.

And if you remember, Jamal Mashburn used to have a gap between his teeth, like kind of a pronounced gap. And Jamal Mashburn is walking through the Cowboys locker room and all of a sudden he hears someone and it's Charles Haley scream out in front of everyone. Jamal Masson's probably 21 years old. Hey, Jamal, now that you're making that NBA money, how about getting your teeth fixed? and like, Jamal Mashburn just feels like vanishing into the carpet. They definitely went a little, they definitely went light on Haley with the Cowboys because Haley was, you know, crazy.

One of the great all-time lunatics of all time in that sport, correct? And I say that, and no, we did not cover with great grace, his mental illness, but his, he was, his talent, what he made people endure was far beyond the pale on sports was not equipped to deal with his kind of crazy. No, no. He was a very, very, very, very difficult teammate. And when you were adding him to your franchise, and he would probably acknowledge this now, when it added Charles Halley to your franchise, you were making a concession that our locker room is either mature enough or insulated enough that we can deal with this. Jeff, what were some of the best examples of Switzerland just not having control of that team? Oh, my God. I mean, I like when he showed up to the, he showed up before when they played the Steelers in the Super Bowl. I think it was Super Bowl 30.

and he's out getting wasted at these parties. You know, it was a very thing Jerry, Jimmy Johnson was like, look, we're not going to do this. He was out there dancing with the players, dancing with women, fooling around, like the whole week leading up to the game. He was on this wild, I'm just going to live my life. I love how he, I actually think Barry Switcher's one of the best characters in sports.

And I'm not saying he was a good NFL coach, but I just think he put it all out there and lived that way. And he was just, he was 58 years. old drinking like his players, partying like his players, falling around like his players, just living the life leading up to the Super Bowl. With this real mentality, I'm probably never going to get here again, so I'm damn well going to enjoy it. Is there anything new to, uh, to uncover from this period of time in, in this documentary, Jeff, like you, you've already told the story. So are you saying, you've seen the whole thing? You're saying it's a, it's a pale reflection of

the real story as you described it exhaustively in your book. Yeah. I mean, it's a, I don't want a dog, it's a very entertaining documentary because that story is entertaining and they got amazing footage and they did the interviews. I don't want to, I don't want to suggest it's not worth watching. It's a very good and enjoyable documentary, but is there a new revealing, holy cow, I didn't know that. I didn't really get much of that. But others might. I want to talk to you about your Tupac book in a second, but I was wondering, you are a very good ombudsman on bad behavior in the media and where it is. media can be compromised, you're old school in a number of different ways. I've been trying to find somebody who can discuss with me intelligently the idea that

ESPN has just sold 10% stake to the NFL and the NFL network. You received that news and thought what? I thought it checks with everything that's going on with modern media right now. I mean, it's the same. If you think about it, it's the same thing with the documentaries we're getting now, even the last dance and this new one, where there's always someone with control of the message. And it used to be, I mean, you know, Dan, you and I've been in the business a long time. Like it used to be, you were the final word, right? ESPN, we're going to cover you,

but we're going to write honestly about you. And it really, perception is just as strong as reality, if not stronger. So if ESPN is now not writing, not doing much about CTE as an example, is that because of this cross ties with the NFL? Has the NFL put pressure on them? Is the NFL saying, look, we'll give you this, but we want you to lay off of head injuries in sports. The, the look of it is terrible. Just absolutely. terrible and it just suggests that there's very little if any independent media anymore okay so what do you imagine is the truth around spike lee's documentary on colin capernick getting spiked and the timing of all of that when it comes to simply um what's happening here ends up getting uh truth uh diluted by powerful

entities and jeff i don't think people care that's the worst part of it i actually it's interesting I used to work for a Bleacher Report. This is where, to me, my birth, for me personally, I used to work for Bleacher Report, and you would write these 8,000, 9,000, it's a key card, BR MAG, and you would write these long, long pieces. And it was great, and it was awesome, and it felt like old SI, old ESPN. It was only like five years ago. And then I think at some point they realized, wait,

why are we spending money on quality journalists doing quality journalism when we could just put up an interview with an NBA player where we ask them softball questions? And I just think that's where we are. Colin Kaepernick, it's not worth the heat. It's not worth the heat they're going to probably get from someone with the White House. It's not worth the heat. They're probably going to get from the NFL.

It's just not worth it for them. The bang for the buck, as they view it, it's just not there. And the thing is, I remember when I was a young writer at Sports Illustrated, and ESI would do stuff just because it was the right story to do. Like, this is an important story. We're going to throw everything at it. We're going to put Ken Kamenetti on the cover of the magazine talking about steroids and baseball. Even though Major League Baseball is going to be pissed off about this.

we're going to do it because it's a right decision to make. And now there's so much overlapping between corporate and editorial that stuff like that almost never happens. Only God can judge me. The many lives of Tupac Shakur is available for pre-order now. I don't know why you would tackle this degree of difficulty on your reporting on something. This is a trough that so many people have been at. How did you do it better and differently than the other?

First, I want to say the song you played at the beginning of this segment. It was very Tupac. I think Tupac would have 100% approved and probably jumped in for a verse on that. So that was really good. Pablo Tore finds out, yeah, I suspect not, probably. Unless they're probably not near the crossword puzzles of Pablo Tore finds out. I just always thought there was a definitive, definitive book of the, I love Tupac as an artist. And what I did differently, I interviewed 650 people.

I traveled to everywhere he lived. I knocked on doors of everyone he knew. I sat down with his sister I sat down with his godmother I just I just lived it for three years because I really really wanted to tell not in a state sanitized story not a story that's you know been

regurgitated I just really wanted to get into his life and understand him and that was my for three years that was my obsession Dan I think that was Fitty it was Fitty just saying very nice wasn't Lil Yadi from

Loll Yolly Jeff thank you for being on with us. We appreciate the time. I am sure that book is going to be good. 650 has to be a record for you. Come on. 650 is absurd. That's 200 more than are necessary. No? That's a record for you. Is it not? No, I did. I always keep track. I did 720 for Bo Jackson, I think. Okay. There's something wrong with you. I have no life. Yeah. Thank you. Good seeing you. I will tell the audience one more time. His YouTube storytelling is magnificent if you want to, if you want just some old-timey truths. I appreciate the work you do, sir. Always have.

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