The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - Hour 1: The Evolution of the Take

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

Dan, Mike, GoJo, and Brad keep things rolling out in L.A. and kick off Hour 1 by getting into the Jim Harbaugh Michigan Cheating Scandal and what advantages can be found from this type of cheating in football. Then, the crew breaks down the evolution of "the take" in sports media before discussing Caleb Williams and Lincoln Riley's futures at USC. Plus, David Samson and Adnan Virk join the show with horrible zoom backgrounds to give us their first thoughts on Killers of the Flower Moon and deliver their Top 5 John Lithgow Movies. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to Giraffe King's Network. This is the Dunlabel Tarshall with the StugatSpotCas. After this many years in sports, I feel like in baseball, if you're cheating, I know what advantages are being gained. If you're doping in cycling, I know the advantage is being gained. Football confounds me in the cheating department because I still don't know what advantage if any. And I read about physics while I was studying this investigation.

The Patriots got from deflating footballs. But now Jim Harbaugh is in a bit of a mess already sat out season, a sat out the beginning part of the season. A season where it looks like his team is one of the best teams there are in college football. And now comes this story that they were what sounded to me like advanced scouting and stealing signals and i assumed everybody was trying to steal signals so i'll ask you my goalich help me understand what kind of advantage i haven't read anything good about this all i read is scandal scandal

scandal but i don't have anyone telling me in a way that I can understand. Okay. How successful were they at it because a hardball has turned that program around? Yeah. That's the hard part. And that's what his detractors are so happy about right now is because football is such an interconnected sport. I've heard Dominique talk about why tanking is so difficult in the sport for that reason

because there's so many variables on the field in a violent game with a weird shape ball that there's only so much. Anyone thing can do to influence the outcome. But now everyone's going to look at Harbaugh's record post a certain point in the last couple of years. And the fact that it is these two most recent seasons where we have all these reports coming in. And it's just going to cloud it for most people because I think in the initial reaction to this, you saw a lot of people that have been around the sport, covered the

sport, played the sport, kind of roll their eyes to a certain point before we found out it was videotaping signs. Like there's always that line in the sand because Dan to your point, everyone's trying to steal signals. It's why even back when I was playing, so 2008 to 2012, we would have three guys on the sideline and each of those guys would be sending signals in. Two of them would be dummy signals and one would be the real ones because you knew people, someone, someone's job on that sideline was to look over and see because it's not a down and a down out thing like steroids or something like that word to this massive advantage

overall. But in my mind, science dealing is all about our aid in high leverage situations, especially, can we give ourself a slightly better chance of what we've been trying to do all week, which was no tendencies enough to be able to predict where we think the staff is going to go.

And so, quite literally, we can look over there and see what they're signaling with the communication then from the sideline for us in a big third down or in the red zone or in one of these areas in football, where the game is most influence, we can have a better idea of what's coming our way and respond accordingly to that. That to me is where the advantage lies in this, but it's also why it's extremely difficult

to find it in this because teams change their signs. They have so many elaborate ways of trying to withhold that from other teams that even if you know, it would still be pretty hard to actually believe that you've got it nailed down in the body of a giving. So let's see at what prompted this because an investigation has already turned up that tickets were bought for a specific staffer and they found up to 30. If there was, I bet on this game, so I was watching it. Greg Siono's Rutgers Michigan. And Greg Siono gives

a halftime interview, which is like scattered and weird. And it's a pretty close game at halftime considering the size of the spread. And I was feeling pretty good about Rutgers. And Greg Siono is like, there's some stuff going on here. I don't want to get into it, but we're dealing with a lot of stuff that's not good. It was a very odd halftime interview, but also Greg Sionno's kind of odd. So I didn't really think much of it. And then this news comes out, and sure enough, social media rediscovered that clip. And you mentioned how you have dummy signals because there's a bit of gamesmanship to this, but filming, yeah, filming kind of crosses that threshold and said this is beyond gamesmanship,

that's poor sportsmanship, is that cheating. And you mentioned deflate gate. Remember the original Patriots' candle was that actually filming practices, trying to get an edge over there. There was stuff with the Cleveland Browns and Ray Farmer getting text messages and pretty punitive measures from the NFL on this because they actually deem it to be a serious offensive one that you

get an advantage over. I have something for you that you probably haven't heard anywhere else and this could be circumstantial. You take it for what it's worth, take it with a grain of salt. I know a staffer that was on Western Illinois in the early 2000, while he was in college and he's older now. And he was telling me like, oh, so I was the staffer. And we found someone on the Western Kentucky staff, they had an extra person in the press box, and they were filming opposing sidelines. The Western Kentucky head coach at the time, Jack Harboff. So this is the Harboff family heirloom a tradition passed down to generations.

So like if we wanna believe this, and I have no reason to not believe this, this is a learned behavior, and it makes me think, wait, are the pleated pants? Yeah. And the milk and the exentrities that is Jim Harbaugh and the Harbaugh family, is that all just a sophisticated cover for one of the

genius cheaters of our time? Yes, he's like, well, I can't videotape. I'm got khakis and glasses and I look like I look like your father I got I got to put my Spectacles on just a master be like I like I have no idea what I'm doing. How would I video tape sidelines? I love that and it's I just go. It's our no hard-bought cheats at Halloween right he told us that his kids He dresses them he makes them sprints around the neighborhood and then puts them in another costume and then makes them Go again so they can get more candy. I'm Jimott, the Harbott family, right? The Thanksgiving prayer is if you're not cheating, you're not trying, correct?

Well, they're looking for, they start every morning with, let's attack the day with the intensity of 10,000 sons, right? They're looking to win their competition in the hallex. So all this kind of tracks and it's unraveling fairly quickly. Like this is from what I'm understanding and how it's looking, like the Greg Ciano halftime interview maybe prompted something that was a pretty open secret. And I'm sure if you ask, serve and Meyer, if you ask, Ryan Day, they probably have a lot of circumstantial evidence

that makes a lot more sense now. Well, I would also, and this is always the interesting part because generally when we see impropriety like this in college sports, all of our assumption is everyone else is doing some version of this, which is why most people don't say anything. You very rarely get people betraying other people inside of this. In honor amongst these. Yes, exactly.

Mostly because they know too, if people start going and looking in other houses, you might find some broken glass in there. And so it does speak to apparently the views on hard bond. I know a lot of Michigan fans have the sensitivity that this is an elaborate ruse to try and forget about affecting this season because I don't know what's going to get done in how quickly now, right? And they're having a day and good season. I think I'm very easily winning a national championship this year.

That's real and vacated wins all that stuff. Doesn't really matter if you've got the hardware at the end of it. You can do that, but you can't remove the feeling and what we all know and saw. But it would be, would this be a punishment enough on the back end that gets hardbought to think about the NFL is this gateway, the Pete Carroll method of all this. And now if you're Michigan, you're sitting there going, yeah, we got this thing, but we were on track to be this for a long time. And now could this subvert it, but it's all just interesting to me.

Again, Harba draws this much iron to make normally a place where it'd be pretty tight lift amongst people that we are imagining doing some version of the same thing. All this happening from a guy who is obsessed with Judge Judy. And then he breaks the rules. This is to me. But I'm in college football court. Have Judge Judy rain down fire upon him. Oh, he would be the, well, we make a judge duty.

Who would be the judge in college football court? I mean, I mean, it's got, it's got to be legal. So I go with, I go with Gene Katie. Yeah. Gene Katie. That's a reference jet black, jet black hair. Come over. Just gives like a judge of my cousin Vinnie, Fred Monster vibes. So are you totally sure he's still with us? No, both.

Gene Katie or Fred Monster. Gene Katie, both. I'm not exactly sure. I'm not sure. You've just, I think you've just appointed a dead judge, which is stuff we do in Florida. But hey, I understood the assignment. I said a name and it was a good name. Gene Taylor is a good name.

And it's because he's got the call over. It is. It is a good name. But I actually think that this is the NCAA seized this opportunity. And this is now repeat offender stuff within one season because Jim Harbohel. I think all of us like lying over a cheeseburger. Come on guys. And in the age of NIL, this is whack.

But this is whack. But this is one opportunity that the NCAA has to actually seize on something and kind of reestablish itself as an authority because this doesn't have to do with a wild west of name, image, likeness, and recruiting because if you come after one, you come after all, and that mutually assured destruction, right? If the NCAA decides that you're doing NIL the wrong way, you're doing recruiting the wrong way in this day and age, they run the risk of everybody saying, I'm not gonna let you punish me.

I'm breaking off, we don't need you whatsoever. But when it comes to actually cheating, cheating the game potentially, if you're filming sideline, that's something that you can rally everyone against. And that's already codified too. Like you point about the NIL stuff is we're waiting through this. Everything that we know about that, the NCAA is kind of written in pencil and the courts are breathing down there next. So they're afraid. This has been on the books. We know, Hey, you're not allowed

to advance scout. That's a 94. That's a budget thing and just coaches. I don't think wanted to be bothered, but videotaping signlines, it's in there. There's a rule against it. So they can point and say, Yeah, we've already gotten this here. This is easy for them. This is a layup. You say that, but I look at everything on the macro of what it is that's happening around here. And I don't know how it is that you get someone

as competitive as Jim Harbaugh, who is looking everywhere where he can skim advantages and tell him to start making someone built like that to start making these moral choices where he's not rationalizing away whatever the penalty would be with rule breaking because even if it's against the rules, my guess is that he believes somewhere that if this is happening the way we think it is and if he thinks he could get at the advantage from it, that the reward is worth the risk, that the risk isn't actually that strong where you're asking football coaches to be moral men about things just because there are rules somewhere that say they should

be. See, now I'm wondering is harbob videotaping other things because like when he said it's not offense, it's not defense, it's not we fence. Was that something that he videotaped some comics at the comedy store? Like a few nights ago? How do you think Jim Harbog, like Jim Harbog, given his general aesthetic and approach to things. I imagine he thinks he could get away with this with an old school like VHS recorder. He just just rolling up there with the solo news, the way they took the photographs in the 1920s where the photographer would put himself underneath a curtain and There's a chubb of aluminum slope coming off of it and the bridge got caught. Yeah, let's go on over there.

Where they're spoke, they're inspired. It's an actual photographer's light bulb. Hey, I'm your advanced guy. You're gonna have to send me two weeks though because of the time it will take for these photos to develop. What's the penalty going to be? I hope that look as a sports fan, I understand what the story of the story arc was for Jim Harball. It got off to a pretty bad start. And so me reading these stories, I'm like, Oh, so that's how they got good. They were cheating.

And that's where most minds go because college football, it's unique in that if it ain't your team, you're predisposed to hate them. Punishment is that he has to go back and coach the Bears. Don Lebatard. Did you guys see Gilbert Arenas' assessment of Zion Williamson? Agent zero. Stugats. Did you answer my question there or no?

No. Okay, very good. This is the Don Lebatars show with this two guts. One of the things that I enjoyed as we continue this conversation with Brad Williams, Michael, or Junior, and Mike Ryan about the evolution of our industry is the evolution of the take. How it is that in the modern age with everyone at this trough giving opinions, how you go about evolving the way you're giving your opinions. We have arrived at the Stephen A Smith Watch Your Mouth portion of the take that he directed

at Tyree Kell. That's not something I've seen much from journalists, but somebody here who has arrived at the take game and really is interested in being at things first. A manual Acho has started the conversation about whether a college player should sit earlier than I've

ever heard it started about Caleb Williams. As soon as he lost to Utah last weekend, Ocho's like, you're not playing for a national championship. You're not going to play in the bowl game. Start sitting right now. And I think his take would have held up fine. If not for this whole pesky idea that this is a paid professional athlete now who's expected to play college football for money. Where my mind went first. I'm like, okay, Immanuel, are you, you're not writing the checks? When, when, in Caleb, it's been well reported what he gets in NIL.

They're not paying that with the expectation that he's just got to opt out and say, forget it before November. I know it's become commonplace now for, for people to opt out of the bull games. And my whole attitude is someone that does contribute to NIL programs is, I'm paying for us to win the Sun Bowl. I'm like, I want to win the Sun Bowl. What a depressing sentence that is. It's you two or four year plan.

Fight God. Yeah. Yeah, fight on. Hey, I'll see you there. Yeah. Listen, my God, it is so interesting though that point because that's always been it the forefront of the argument that those of us who and God, all of this is like a weird conversation about who's presenting these ideas in good faith or not, who is coming to it with the

best interest of the players in mind or who just wants to contribute from the national level with something that feels accessible under the conversation. I don't know what any of those look like for Ocho. This isn't about him specifically, but with that, it was always well with players devastated to hear that. Yeah. With with players sitting out games like the sunbowl and stuff, it was well, if you want them there, pay them. And so now we've gotten to that point where there is money on the table for that. And in Caleb's case, like, they're not out of the peck 12 race yet. It feels like that. But they've only got one of those losses in conference.

The Notre Dame loss doesn't hit the same way. And so this whole conversation about what actually matters in college football also kind of works its way into that. And there's still real stakes on the table for them. Yeah. And the whole thing is Caleb might actually come back or he's threatened to come back to USC and say, like, oh, if I'm going to go to a team that I don't like, then I'm just going to stay at USC and still make more money than a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL. So he doesn't have the threat. So it's like, yeah, no, he can't just stay at USC. I'm saying

this as a UFC fan and I love I would like you to stay at USC. Yeah, well, keep going. You're highlighting exactly why this is the one dude that shouldn't do that because it's such a big deal and his options are so great in that if he doesn't like the profit, he can just say, no, I'll stay at USC. Well, part of that is,

hang is playing for your pay. And if you're gonna opt out on a season that can still be very good as Lincoln Riley is trying to build a program. And I do think legacy does matter in Caleb Williams is case because that's a great school with a lot of great quarterbacks.

He's got a shot considering how much he's played at some all-time records. And also the last two games, not the greatest film, to the point that the national discussion is, oh, Drake May is in this conversation again There's there's considerably a lot to play for including money the money that you paint like these deals or season long deals And sometimes there's a handshake agreement. Okay. We're a three-law's team

I know we made it to a New Year's Bowl game, but we can all understand you're the getting picket You're the best on this team you've been here for a while while. You've given a lot, you can take this one off. But we're having this conversation in October because the quarterback in particular had a three-interception game two weeks ago and was again to Utah, like his direct performance has a say

on whether or not he finishes the year. But I guess the thing is, if we wanted to take this as the ultimate like high-level thought version of this of, does Caleb Williams need any more college football to prove anything to anyone in the NFL? The answer is no. He does not need college football. He put that standard.

He could have not played this season. He just needed to play. He would have been the number one player. Like he could have sat out the entire season. If you're going to stop him playing now, you, you might as well have stopped him playing before. You wouldn't have heard his value, value any less anymore. No, we learned that during the pandemic season, when you had going to stop him playing now, you, you might as well have stopped him playing before. You wouldn't have heard his value, value any less anymore. No, we learned that during the pandemic season, when you had players like Jamar Chase and

I believe Penet Suule also didn't play that fall and we're still top draft picks. They were still first round draft picks because at a certain point, you know, and we already know with Caleb Williams, you can have, and we will. And I thought it was going to take longer to get to the Drake May thing, but we're here now because of that performance. But even still, it's not that he needs college football anymore to accomplish those things, but it's all those other things. That's what I try and explain to people all the time is these aren't easily made decisions by these players to stop playing with their teammates. To set out even a bowl game that seems meaningless. Like the insinuation that bothers me most is that these guys are somehow lesser competitors because they've opted out of playing in the gator bowl or something like that

no but they've had to for so long way the economic disparity between college and NFL part of that conversation has changed now and because of that i think you might see some different decisions made but it's still for a lot of guys too. The destination for everyone is not just college football. For me, it was. Like that was the more I think about it in retrospect, I grew up wanting to play it Notre-Dame. But for a lot of guys, it's they want to play on Sundays. And so some of it's the economics, but it's also just like, hey, I'm this close to my dream. I'm this close to the thing I've wanted.

And I've seen what happened to guys who got really close and then got hurt. And how much it can throw that off. Lincoln Riley, where are we with him? He comes in immediately creates a gust of expectations, immediately creates offense. They win a bunch of games. Their last season ended right toward the end when they looked like they were going to be in the playoff and possibly win the national championship. And now he comes off more and more like he's got some dictator tendencies that I didn't know about when he was at Oklahoma. He's limiting a lot of access to his players, wants to be controlling the media, isn't allowing

his players to talk after losses for the first time in USC history. By the way, players were not made available after a loss. Yeah. And it's very interesting to have that come in now in one of the biggest media markets in the world. You can do that in sports. This market does not care about sports. This market, Los Angeles does not care about. I will. You can not find. Like I'm trying to find a bar that'll show him a game for two weeks. I had to tell I had to break it to somebody that the Rams were back. They can put the local game on there like which ones that I'm like the the Rams are

the they want a super bowl here years ago. We care we just care about the Lakers only when they're winning. Well, and it's I think it's less that this market they definitely don't care here. I can show you that's why that's why they got outsourced to the big 10. But people do care about USC. And that's the difference is Oklahoma and the national conversation road of the USC and the national conversation. My God, is that a different world? Yeah. But I think it washed over me. Lincoln Riley was always kind of your mark. Does it guy that be? Oh, that's an innovator linked to Cowboys jobs in the pros. And I see how he's handling just this media market. And it's not a hardcore passionate, uh, meaty market about college football. It's just there's professionals

here that don't necessarily need the program to succeed for them to succeed. And I see a guy that cannot handle the NFL and the pressures of that job and the media scrutiny of that job right now. And it's not what I expected because I didn't know this aspect of his personality in Oklahoma. I think the one thing because a lot of that, there was an issue with a journalist beforehand who reported something that apparently they heard outside of it that he took a student journalist that he took Umbridge with. And that's more what I latch on to not making players available for the media after the game. I can almost spin to that someone who's trying to protect them from what's coming.

And part of me as a player does appreciate that idea. You're making things worse. They don't need protection from learning how to respond to a loss of Utah. They've had plenty of experience there. They need protection from Bill Plaschke. They need protection from Utah on the field. That's what they need. Cal waiting and makes what?

Half of what the odd Damon, I said Deon Sanders, but it's always my takeaway. How does Cal, how does Cal waiting and do this? Just ruining season after season. Lincoln Riley hasn't beaten Utah yet. No, he's lost three times to Utah. Yeah, you you mentioned what Caleb Williams has to prove in college. I'd like to see him beat Utah. It beat four years to Utah. Yeah. You, you mentioned what Caleb Williams has to prove in college. I'd like to see him be Utah. It'd be a four year.

It's to start. Dan, you bringing up Lincoln right and Mike, you bringing up Lincoln Riley Reload to the NFL. I thought that was the most interesting. There was an article in the LA Times about him last week and Lincoln off the field through the last couple of years has been through the ringery lost a couple of his coaching mentors and very tragic fashion Mike Leach being one of them. And the article sounded so much like a guy that was having a bit of an existential crisis with his play to set this level of the sport. And a lot of it, and I think this is the read from a lot of people was a guy who looked longingly at what the NFL afforded you as far as balance of lifestyle wise and seemed

to be really openly pining for that in a way that was surprising for one of the kings of college right now. Do I have this wrong, though, because I associate this kind of coach, Mike McDaniel, the Sean McVeigh, I associate them with being a little more media friendly, a less of a dictator type. None of these coaches have any use for the media. We're intrusive. We are there to create problems that they don't want and they don't need our publicity anymore. But I think of

the young coaches is having a different relationship than the Bella checks. OCs typically more media friendly, defensive coordinators grind their mollars into dust like Brett Venable. So it surprises me when I hear this about, I don't know what I'm doing there. I think, well, this guy creates offense and is a young person. Therefore, he's not gonna be a jackass or he's gonna be less, he's gonna have less jackass or when it comes.

What you're doing is, he's recently biased and it's honestly not something I knew about Lincoln Riley prior to this year. And I think you highlighted something important. This may not just be an existential crisis. This might be a midlife crisis. Yeah, just turn 40. That makes sense. LA. Yeah. I mean, the signs are there. I mean, if you start like driving around a Porsche and dating a 19 year old, we're going to have issues here. But like imagine a urban

Meyer. Imagine being in college football. That's not the success. That pressure cooker and looking at the NFL head, head coaching, you're like, ah, they have more work life balance. Yeah. That's true. Those are guys that have a fake, they have a full of 35 minutes a day to see their families. But that is true. And that's why the NFL is actually paying guys less than college guys right now. I was speaking to an agent and college coaches are having a very difficult time staffing

with the top of the line candidate. You don't have to look any further than the top of the line when it comes to college football. The book on Nick Sagan was that is a head coach rehabilitation program. You go there, you'll get a job somewhere else within two years. Look who his coordinators are. No fence at Tommy Reese, but not top of the line. It's not the Bill O'Brien of the world. Hell, he took Miami's old defensive coordinator last year

who essentially was parted ways with. It is not the same hustle because the life balance, there is no such thing in it. It's nonstop, it is all consuming. I cannot tell you that I have many sentences in my life that start in a more unpleasant way than you just started that with I was talking to an agent. Done lebertard.

At the end of our conversation with Alex Smith, and we talked for about 30 minutes, but I feel like nobody is going to remember anything about that conversation other than how you fell flat at the end with your very last word. Listen to how Stugatts here at the end of this interview says goodbye just exhausted to Alex Smith. That does. Stugatts. What happened?

Alex? I'm dead. I'm exhausted. I haven't stopped talking in a month. I mean, I don't know to tell you. VCC Don Limita show with this two cats. I have worked with words for a living for damn near four decades. And I do not have the words to explain to you just how crappy the zoom backgrounds are for Adnan

Burke and David Samson. I don't it's a it's a kitchen. It looks like that they're sharing behind it's very clearly built to scale. It is it's weird how it looks and I'd like you guys to please at your leisure fix this because it doesn't look very good, but I want to read to the audience something that Adnan sent me that made me want to throw up on my telephone. I've never had both this reaction or received a text like this. It begins with, attended the critics screening of killers of the flower moon last night. No doubt me, Louis. Another extraordinary film from Scorsese. I'm speechless, profound on every level.

I know this reeks of hyperbole, but I was shaken when I walked out of the screening and felt the ground beneath me start to vanish Unbelievable, well, I mean this is something Scorsese is gonna want to put on his movie posters Mike Ryan is also seen in hand. I'm looking at David Simmsons face right now Sense I sense that you are not invited to any critic screenings and you have not yet seen this movie that you want to see, David. You sense correctly. I, I'm very disappointed the fact that Adnan sought and he texted you and he also texted

me and whatever Adnan, I'm glad you saw it. I'm glad you sat there for four hours. That's classy, David. And I think listen, Dan said you want to spit up all of himself. I think it's the key is I was self-aware. I said, I know this leaks of hyperbole and yet still I

went further and the ground beneath me could start to bash. A bit of a high bar. I don't think it cleared that for me, but I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. It was a good movie but I didn't feel the ground shake.

No, more than that, Mike, you texted me. You said great film. Wow, Lily Gladstone. Yeah, Lily Gladstone was a tour de force. There you go. That we're talking about. I'm screwed. I like that.

I like that. I got a ball. I mean, not just holding her own, but just bossing scenes in which she's holding with Leo DiCaprio, who's a very accomplished, uh, that's being in his own right. I thought it was an unbelievable, powerful performance. I was in a great movie theater for it. Everyone was pretty locked in.

The music was great. If you're a music fan, there's so many bit roles that I think, uh, ardent, uh, music supporters and fans of songwriting will really love in this movie. It was, it was powerful. It does stay with you. I'm still trying to process it because I went in not having read the book, having, having only seen trailers, not really knowing what

to expect. And the twists and turns that this film takes, you can't anticipate from the trailer. I love the film. It'll surely be in contention for best picture. We will do an honor of John Lithgow being in this film, top five John Lithgow movies, but because Scorsese and Deneeron will get to add in thoughts on the movie in a second, he's seen it twice already. David hasn't seen it at all. That's a tired day. I know it's, it's three hours, it's almost four hours, the entire movie, but how do you,

how do you guys feel about the idea that Scorsese could have made this as long as he wanted and put it in four or five parts or six parts and everybody would have watched it just the same. But he's, you know, he's somebody who wants to be film guy and doesn't want to acquiesce to modern norms. I love it, dude. I'm always amazed by people who say, man, how long is it 3.5 hours? And I say, but you've got the time to watch binge watch, some crappy show on Netflix. People will do that all weekend, some six-part nonsense. And this is our greatest living director, an author for the ages, who's making a passion project.

Because it took him years to make three and a half hours. But it's about the O Sage and it's all those films that really needs that epic sweep. What happened in the 1920s, this buried part of American history, which he's bringing to life and he's doing so with our greatest talents, like Bob De Niro and Leonardo DiCaprio and actors we don't know and now will like Lily Gladstone. So I'm always amazed at somebody who's like, man, three and a half, it's too long. I'm like, what do you mean?

It's not long enough. But frankly, if you're having art to experience, even David can agree with me, I don't care how long art is for it's own sake. They're both reacting to you calling him Bob DeNiro. They think you don't have the right to call him Bob. I interviewed him. I interviewed him on my podcast. I showed the everybody saying, can I call you Bob?

He said, yes. We can play the clip if you like. He said yes. DeNiro, I'm, let's see that. And the other thing is that every movie takes years to make. So for you to give some sort of accolade because, oh my God, it took them years. It just shows that maybe you don't understand the industry. That's all. Wow. Wow. Well, you are a certain you're talking about because they wrote this script, Marty and Eric Roth, adapting David Grant's book. It took them two years and decapherr is going to play the FBI agent who's now played by

Jesse Plements. And then Leo said, you know what, it's not a very interesting character. Too much of a street hero. What if I play one of the villains? What if I play Ernest, who's De Niro's nephew? So then they rewrote the script again for the year. So yeah, this isn't like the classic film which takes six months a year. This was four years. I thinkiro's nephew. So then they rewrote the script again for the year. So yeah, this isn't like the classic film which takes six months

a year. This was four years, I think that's notable when a film takes four or five years to get made. Did Leo also give you permission to call him Leo on your pal? I think if he knew I was,

it wouldn't be an issue. Let's be honest. Can you tell me what you believe to me because De Niro and Scorsese have worked on 10 films together? Tarantino hasn't even made 10 films. What is the best of the 10, the best of the 10 Scorsese and Bob three way tie, raging bold taxi driver, good fellas, raging bold transcendent film, dinner, literally changed

acting by putting on 60 pounds for the role. He's so lean and mean as Jake Lamata and then morphs into a fat failure. But that literally influence a generation of actors. Taxi driver, there's never been a better film about urban alienation and loneliness and good fellas might be the most rewatchable will be ever. Samson, agree. I agree with you, Adnan. Aaron, can I call you Ad? I agree with you, Adnan. Eric and I call you ad. But where you say things, it's as though you're reading out of some sort of dictionary or playbook of how to sound like a highfalutin critic.

Little bit of a star. I am a critic. So then I talk like a critic talks. That's how it is. I did go to a critic screening. Yeah. Exactly. So I am what I am.

I'm a critic. You don't think I found this in Oppenheimer a little bit with Rami Mollex role in it. Did you find it distracting that actors like Brendan Frazier and John Liffgaugh had these particularly minor roles? I like the thought because they're obviously great actors, but I found it to be a tad distracting. And then Brendan Frazier's role to distracting, it took away from his performance, really. If there is to be a minor quibble of the film, and I'll say the article, Mike, I came to what Web sets on, but it said should Brendan Frazier give back his Oscar after killers

the fire mood? Because he's only in seven minutes, but your point, it's very overwrought. He's really going for it. Once David and Dan see it, they'll know what I'm talking about. Once in the way, he says, you dumb boy. It's a little excessive, but I don't find it overly distracting quite frankly. I think Frazier's giving a role and if Marty doesn't edit it out, I guess that's what he's hoping for on that scene.

But if it's a nondescript actor versus Brendan Frazier, I'll take Brendan Frazier. I don't think it's as fine as to hour, but I didn't have a major issue with it. I was amused by it. And Lithgow, I thought was excellent of the movie. So I was happy to see him show up. In honor of that, let's get to your top five, David Samson, John Lithgow movies or any of them going to be within the last 10 years or so. There aren't many choices that I would say in the last 10 years, so I apologize in advance,

but these are still five movies that I would have anyone see no matter the demographic. Number five, leap year. You're right, off if you don't enjoy relationships or love or what you would do to find true love, Amy Adams is in the studio. Amy Adams wishes she could scrub this off her IMDB. This is before Amy Adams became a celebrity to action, David. Come on, even if you're Irish and this was shot in parts of Dublin, they'd say, we're not just on this movie.

Let's just give this one a scholar. We don't want to own this one. Leap year, pass. Off to a roaring start. Number four, David. Cliff Hanger. Two, two, two, two, five minutes of cliffhanger. Wonderful. First five minutes, the rest of it is a mountain of elephant crap.

Mike, to back to my mouth, though, way too low. Go ahead, David. He has such great range for him to play that part. And then the part that he plays in number three means he's an all-time actor. Number three, terms of endearmate. Oh, you want. It's the number one most emotional movie that anyone will watch in their lifetime. It has performances. This is classic. Absolutely.

Adnan, the performances in terms of endearmate criticize them. I want you to criticize Jeff Daniels, criticize Jack Nicholson, Deborah Winger, John Lithgow, do it, criticize him right now. You just, you watch this movie just seeing your tear ducts working. Like you watch these movies just

so you can cry and like get in touch with your most little side. It's laughable. I'm fine with that characterization actually and I wear that and so should you. I'm surely mccain, the scene in the hospital, it's so overwrought. I mean, there's some good moments in there, but it's called this one, a lift gown. No one said exactly, you just listed on the other actors. I would think of Shirley McClain. I think of Nicholson, you know, obviously supporting is really good. Daniels is good, but John Liffgael in the movie,

I don't remember John Liffgael in terms of endearing, but that's how forgettable he is. Just for clarification, are these a Litzkown performances or just how much you enjoyed the art? I do a combination, actually. When we're doing top fives that we do, if it's top five movies of 2000, obviously it's just a movie,

but when it's an individual actor, I take into account how I felt about the entire movie and how I felt about the performance. So why was Cliff Hanger number four? Because I didn't love the movie. And I, but I thought his performance was outstanding. He was a great villain. Number two.

Number two foot loose. John Liffgaugh played a character that if you've ever been in high school or ever wanted to go back to high school, he's the exact type of person and the adult in your life that tells you know you can't do it, you won't do it because we're going to do it my way. And those are the type of characters that I have disdain for, but his performance was outstanding. John Lithgaugh also in that classification of knowing the secret to aging is looking 50 for 40 years. Yeah. That is that is also the way I shake off daily frustrations. I go dance at a warehouse. Number one, David. The best performance I've seen is in a movie called The World According to

Garpe. Really? Just kidding. That young audience. Go ahead, dude. No, but I'm trying. Only one year ago this movie came out. On a side note, I have a son who's a junior in college and he is watching movies from the 70s, 80s and 90s. He was born in 2003. He's doing it because he wants to be a cinephile. He actually wants to do it without googling or reading critics list. So he's go

to my blog. I can have your son on once you watch the movies. I'll have a lot of you. That'd be good. We are almost out of time, Adnan. So give us your top five fast as you can, please. You got it. Number five, bombshell. John Liff got playing Roger Ailes. And it's a current film. I might add fantastic number four. Number four cliffhanger. That's a cliffhanger.

Number three. Number three raising cane. Oh, come on. Number two, Harry and the Henderson's. My man can make a failing movie too. Stop it. And number one, killers of the flower moon, working with Scorsese at the best age of the earth.

You are such a minister. Oh, the flower is vanishing beneath me. the flower moon working with Scorsese at the best picture of the earth. You are such a minute. The flower is vanishing beneath me.