The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - Local Hour: Losing The Locker Room

Episode Date: January 24, 2024

Amin Elhassan and Charlotte Wilder of Oddball are here with some big-time basketball news. And Greg Cote is back!!! Adrian Griffin is out in Milwaukee, and the reports suggest Doc Rivers may be in. We discuss the details and whether or not a coach can come back from losing the locker room. Also, Greg Cote explains his absence on Greg Cote Tuesday, and do Dan and Mike owe Jeremy an apology over yesterday's Terry Rozier-Kyle Lowry discussion? Does Dan owe an apology to Greg? Amin, Charlotte, and Jeremy break down what Rozier's addition to the Heat really means. Plus, David Samson offers his two cents on the Griffin firing as someone who also fired a coach mid-season. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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His Greg Cody Tuesday. But before I do that, somebody writes in, I hope they fly a mean in and give him time to deep dive into that firing because ESPN is reporting Doc Rivers is a top candidate and I am so confused. That was a bit of a stunner yesterday. 43 games in to the season. The team with the third best record in basketball has fired Adrian Griffin, who has gone through so many interviews to get that job and he's done after 43 games. I mean, explain to me what happened here.

He lost the locker room. That's the quick and easy answer in the NBA. Doesn't matter if your X's and O's are beyond reproach. It doesn't matter if you've got the best lineup data in the world. It doesn't matter if you've got a great relationship with your general manager with ownership. If you lose the locker room, there's no coming back from that. They don't say, you know what?

You lost us, but you got us back. But why did he lose them? How did he lose them? And how is Doc Rivers in play? How many good jobs are we gonna give Doc Rivers to fail at? So the Doc Rivers part, we need to set that aside. If you wanna talk about why he didn't give a lost his job, we can talk about that. And then you want to talk about why Adrian Griffin lost his job,

we can talk about that. And then dock rivers is a completely different topic. But in one answer, I'll say Adrian Griffin, it was a bunch of small fishers over a long time, right? So it starts with, Cris Haines brought this up yesterday on TNT, when he was hired, you got to remember what the bucks were. It was, you honest might leave, we don't know,

he won't sign an extension, he had that interview where he said, we don't do stuff, I'm leaving, right? Chris Middleton's a free agent. Damien Lillard isn't even a glint in John Horst's eye, right? This is, so, and the team had an embarrassing ouster in the first round. So there was a feeling of this might be a time of transition for this team. And

Adrian Griffin was a guy, like you said, it interviewed 14 times and had been assistant coach for a long time in this league and played in this league. And so this was kind of, all right, bring in some new blood, particularly because Bud had worn out his welcome and his stay with that lockerman, particularly probably with Yanis, right? So we get the training camp and the first thing that happens is now this happens with every new coach It's your first time coaching guess what we're gonna have next to you an old head who's done it before been there done that Somebody who looks like Greg Cody somebody who looks like somebody a bench coach that you need to steady things because you're a new Coach and you just need on the sideline somebody in a suit who looks like Greg Cody.

Someone on the, preferably with less embalming fluid. I don't know what's going on with your makeup. You do look a little embalmed. Ready for the cast. Jessica, Charlotte, Chris Cody, can you give me an appraisal of the hue, the hue of Greg Cody? I, uh, Oh Cody. Bronze and Matt.

Matt. Matt. Whatever that means. Matt Petitioner. Why are you putting people on the spot? I don't think he looks that bad, guys. Thank you. Okay.

You're not bad, Charlotte. I think Greg looks amazing. I always think Greg looks amazing. There you go, thank you, Charlotte. That bad. The endless ray of go, thank you Charlotte. That bad. The endless ray of positivity that is Charlotte Wilder. His face does seem to be disappearing. I don't know what that means.

I'll get back to you in a second. I mean, I do want to talk to Chris Cody. It was supposed to be Greg Cody Tuesday yesterday. Do any of you know why it was not Greg Cody Tuesday yesterday? I got a text late on Monday that he wasn't feeling well. Right, you said under the weather, and so I assumed he was sick, and when he came in here I said,

Greg, are you feeling okay? Are you feeling better? And he's, yeah, he's like, I was just down in the dumps yesterday. What? I didn't feel like doing the show. Oh, what? You okay, Greg?

It's true. Wow. Yeah, I don't know if we want to make fun of this. A lot of people need a mental health day. Well, Dan probably will, but we don't. I know he will. We don't. No, I just, I had a bad Sunday and Monday

and it carried over and this is not a normal job, as you all know. Like if I'm in a piss-ant mood, but I have to write a column, the reader's not Like, if I'm in a piss-ant mood but I have to write a column, the reader's not going to know that I was in a piss-ant mood. If I'm in a piss-ant mood and I come on this show, I'm going to be awful, just useless. This is where you say more than usual. How can you tell? How can you tell?

There we go. All right, I teed it up for you. So you have to be in a certain frame of mind to come in and do the show, and I was not yesterday morning, that's all. Do you have a back of my day? It's Wednesday. I got you there right?

Of course I don't. Are you feeling better today, Greg? I'm feeling better, thank you. Just sliding scale. I wish I had taken two and a half years of mental health days. I mean, if having to be in the proper mood to do this is what's necessary, and you're not wrong, like of course we should all have mental health days.

I don't assume that many of us would afford those to athletes. Hey, take a mental health day. You don't have to work. That's what I was just wondering. You don't have to work today. Never mind that we pay you a lot of money to work. What would the Greg Cody column have been? If, for instance, Dan Moreno said, didn't show up on Sunday? I need a mental health day. And it just happens to be Sunday. Yeah. Can you imagine?

Let's just say, hypothetically, Lamar Jackson needs Sunday as a mental health day. Well, don't be ridiculous. Do we have to do this? I was really into the Adrian Griffin dissection. Plenty of time to talk. We've got we've got many hours to discuss what was the confusing sports story of the day, which is you say fissures over a long period of time.

I mean, but 43 games is not a long period of time. I don't have you tell me because I haven't read everything about what precedent is here. This is a fairly shocking thing to happen this fast with a team that is otherwise they might be underachieving but they're still obviously very good and we were assuming they would need time to figure it out. David Blatt got fired 41 games into having the best record in the east and having come off a finals appearance. But made a fool of himself. Made a fool of himself. Some might argue that publicly some some might argue that almost losing the Detroit is making a fool of yourself Some might argue that this what got David Black fired was not the fighter pilots

Quote or anything it was he lost his locker. He was drawing up plays not for LeBron James at the end of games He had LeBron James inbounding the ball. But Dan, that's not what got him done in specifically. It's not like managers say, you did what? Get out of here! You're fired! It's he lost his locker room. Adrian Griffin lost his locker room. We don't have specifics of the plays that he drew up

that were dumb or the schemes that he came up with or didn't come up with. We don't have those specifics right now. All we know is he lost the locker room, and most importantly, he lost the one guy you can't lose in the locker room, Yannis Hanukkoum. What do you make of the Terry Stott's reports?

It looked like the veteran coaching presence I was on the bench was Terry Stott's, and he and Griff were at odds with one another. So the reporting around it made it seem like this was a case of everyone had culpability. Terry Stotz was operating with a level of freedom and autonomy that isn't typical of an assistant coach. Adrian Griffin was perhaps incredibly reactive to do a public undressing, and I say public, I mean in front of the team of Stott's in that situation. They both probably handle it poorly,

but the reality is that's why you have a guy like Terry Stott's on the staff to help someone who's never done this before, no matter how long you've done it as an assistant coach. There's a management of people that happens as a head coach that needs to occur, particularly when you're putting in things that are new to the team. Didn't you tell us the story in Phoenix of a Shaq Phoenix team that that went that fell apart in practice because you saw the revolt in practice They weren't respecting their coach. They didn't want to run the offense the way he wanted it And it wasn't in practice. It was training camp. That's why I say when you know, you know

I've done seen it with my own eyes. We had we were I think 28 and 22 or something like that We were a playoff team. We're like in the mix. It wasn't falling apart, but we all knew they're not following that guy anymore. So we can see here and live for another 30, 40 games and then get bouncing the first round. I said, well, that didn't work out. Or we can do something about it right now.

So you think it's a good move then, just based on once you lose the locker room, anyone's gotta be fired. Yes. I believe that when you lose the locker room. Anyone's got to be fired. Yes Yeah, I believe that when you lose the locker room, particularly when you lose your superstar more than anything It's done. It doesn't come back from that Based on what you've said it makes me wonder Does the team now say to Yanis? We're thinking at dock rivers. Is that okay you are you are you good with dock let me before we bring up dock rivers okay because people in the NBA know this i don't know how willing a mean is to speak to this part of it. Doc has charmed his way into an assortment of wonderful situations wait up down a little bit of a little.

Oh, that's not my fault. It's not my fault. That you're charming? That I'm charming. That's a beautiful question, by the way. Very handsome question, but that's not my fault. I'm the best guy. A lot of people don't trust Doc Rivers' charm because he figures out ways to get in good positions

that serve Doc Rivers. The reporting on this one was weird though. I was, Mike, can you explain to me what this? Ooh, what an offense. What the, what the, what the CNN arm of basketball is that would report Doc Rivers as a top candidate? I'm fascinated by, by the reporting surrounding the replacement for Adrian Griffin. First that woge gets beat on a Doc Rivers rumor was pretty

wild. It's got a wild. I mean, I texted him. I said, hey, Adrian, it's happening. And then Woj quickly follows up that report with confirmation. But last night on the NBA on TNT, a Turner broadcast, they break the news to their viewing audience at CNN is reporting that dock rivers is the next coach of the Milwaukee Bucks. I didn't know they did sports. Didn't know, especially with Rachel not there anymore. Like I had no idea that they were breaking

stories. This is the flagship broadcast for Turner Sports, but the lead NBA insider, Chris Ains, is not agreeing with this report. He's saying that they're talking, it's headed in that direction, but no deal is in place. So if you go to the story from CNN, it's this amorphous CNN staff It's not a single reporter. So you have this weird situation where Turner's arm is not confirmed is not confirming this report Shams and wodes are not confirming this report CNN is reputable But we have we can't ignore the fact that they're not breaking these types of

stories. They're reputable, uh, well, some people might- I'm blaming Discovery. Some people- Discovery Channel. They mess it all up. Some people might argue that they're not credible. There are a whole lot of people in America who would say they're not credible, but- Yeah, but when it comes to basketball, I do think that there is a warranted skepticism

because they don't break reports. Don Lebatard. We were talking to and about Freddie Gibbs and then Greg Cody made an appearance, Chris Cody made an appearance, and we were talking about the possibility of Freddie Gibbs having, actually having the rap album of the year, at which point Chris Cody, who is too young for this and doesn't know like athletes from the 90s,

Chris Cody, says, is that one of, is that Barry Gibbs? Is he, and so then the BG start playing. Stugats. Well said. A little bit of a struggle, a little bit rusty here. This is the Don Lebatar show with the Stugats. Well that and also like your actual basketball part of your company is not saying yes. That's the big one, right?

It would be like ABC News reported I'm leaving, but ESPN said hold the brakes. Yeah, that's kind of weird. That part to me is the strangest because they're the same corp They got to get on the same page here Hold the brakes is holding the horses and tapping the brakes. What did you want to do there with hold the hold the brakes? Did I say hold the brakes? Well, I didn't say Doc Rivers said it then yeah, and that's what makes him so damn charming Then he makes a little idiosyncratic mistakes. That makes him more political. Is it his job?

Are you alluding to Doc Rivers potentially doing something like behind the scenes while Griffin is in place? Because what you said is like, oh, Doc Rivers likes to finesse situations in order to be in the best possible situation for Doc Rivers, that doesn't seem that bad. He was advising Adrian Griffin, wasn't he? That's the interesting part about this that bad. He was advising Adrian Griffin, wasn't he? That's the interesting part about this, Charlotte.

He was advising Adrian Griffin while Adrian Griffin was having trouble keeping the locker room. Also a big part of this is that the Bucks defense completely cratered. They went from being a top five defense to being as of yesterday morning at rank 22. And they were doing things that were inexplicable.

And Yanis was like, why are we just letting everybody, anybody can shoot threes, anybody can go to the rim against us, have at it. And he said that publicly, which, sure, you can say there are other fissures, but like once you're star, I also heard he lost the NASA switch. You know. That's true.

Let me tell you something. A vet coach would have made sure that NASA's is happy. All of this is weird enough. I mean, that I'm not suggesting that Dr. Rivers did anything wrong here. I'm just saying it's suspicious enough that a lot of stuff here feels like it's got questions on it because this is a super unusual thing to happen

when they just got Damien Lillard. Like these are not flippant decisions. This must have been so obvious to them that they can't even get through half a season without realizing, do you know how rare it is for a team to make an investment and immediately say to itself, wow, we got that one wrong. Like usually they're stubborn about figuring out

how to make themselves look smart because they don't want the public embarrassment of this. It's not- Because this looks like you don't know what you're doing. But Dan, this is the truism of the NBA is that we will tolerate almost everything. Any sort of incompetence. What we won't tolerate is you losing your locker room,

particularly your superstark. Because if you make the wrong decisions, oh, we drew up the wrong play, oh, we had the wrong defensive scheme. Like we can live through that, we say he's the first time coach will figure it out. But when the guys in the locker room are like, F that guy, dude, it's over.

It doesn't matter how good you are, how good you can be. Looping in what you said at the beginning, which was establishing the timeline of the hire. And Dan just saying right now, it looks like they didn't know what they were doing. I think it's fair to say at the time of hiring him, they did not know what they were doing They did not know which direction the team was was going in and

Had they acquired Damian Lillard before they made the decision on the head coach It probably would have gone in a completely different direction Kevin O'Connor at the ringer wrote that they were Considering Nick nurse and a big part of the Adrian Griffin hire was that Yanis backed Griffin because he didn't want to play for Nick nurse So it seems like that if that's true It was sort of like a well We're gonna Yanis wants a different guy and here's the different guy. So let's go with him If the end game is Lillard on the heat things are going perfect folks

Things are going cursed the damn trade. I mean, I mean What's his name? Doc Rivers isn't a guy that's going to win you. I mean, I know he's won a title with the Celtics, but the last his it's been bad. A lot of game seven losses. No one has lost more game sevens than that guy has. And when I bring up the fact that there are people in the NBA who don't trust how good he is at sales and when you talk I mean about some of the stuff that poisons teams and the selfishness that is required to be eradicated when you are a team you see what's happening with Halliburton right

he rushes back because he's got incentives in his contract that give him forty one million dollars if he's all NBA and he gets hurt again and when he gets hurt again the Pacers champs is with that kind of selfishness get neutered because you've got money in play self-interest in play you've got so many egos in this locker room the pressure is greatest on who in that locker room it's Lillard right he's got to go there and make that work right because Janice is already won so if they don't win with Lillard, he's the one who's got the most pressure on him. How do you lose Lillard in 43 games?

I don't know that he lost Lillard. We might have lost Lillard as part of a larger collection of people, the entire locker room. But again, if Yannis is like, no, that's my guy, they're giving him every opportunity to turn it around. I would argue the pressure's on the bucks to keep Dame happy and to keep Dame, like keep Dame wanting to be here.

And if Dame's out on Adrian, like I actually see, like you were saying that most of the time teams are too stubborn to admit they were wrong and they lose a season, then they lose in the second round and all of a sudden everyone's pissed, they're getting out ahead of it. They're like, this wasn't working, so we're gonna rip the bandaid now

and not waste an entire day in here. I tend to agree with Chris there in that it's, look, the Doc Rivers hire is questionable and that we've already lamented the type of coach that he's been in the playoffs. But getting out ahead of it and trying to find a coach that can win your locker room back when Dame didn't want to be there to begin with. Like that is a part of this conversation, he didn't want to be there, and early on in the season you heard comments from Giannis about team defense. They were really interesting in those first 15-20 games of the year, even as they were winning games because you replaced Drew Holiday with Damien Lillard, who's not a good on-ball

defender or team defender. Jeremy, I appreciate that you have spoken up here and I want to get to something that happened yesterday. Mike Ryan, people have been yelling at both you and me for our analysis of the Terry Rosear trade and they have all sided with Jeremy Tashay who brought good information about the pick and roll and that our information is dated on Rosear because we're talking about the player that we saw four or five years ago. I am curious on Amin's thoughts on what kind of player the Miami Heat got, but are you willing to walk back some of your criticism of the Miami Heat yesterday?

I believe you described yourself as sad as Greg Cody was yesterday. Wow! I will walk it back and I will give Terry Rosear a fresh start. As you know in the NBA, it typically takes nine to 10 years for a player to find his form for you to truly make a ruling on a player. And the fact that Terry Rosear has had a great season as a looter and a riot for a terrible Charlotte team

does make me a bit excited. I'm literally right here, Mike. I look at the pick and roll numbers are good. I did like the side by side stat views graph of Damien Lillard and Terry Rosears year. And no matter what, we are going from the player that I hated most to possibly the player that I hated the second most,

but it is still very much an upgrade. So I deleted some tweets and I'm here to say, welcome to Miami, Terry. Ridiculous. Ridiculous. Like, let's get some clear. You're not getting 25 points a game, Terry Rose here. That's not what you wanted to get if you're Miami. You want someone who, A, can guard point of attack better than Kyle, which is... Can Terry do that? Yes. Yes.

Yeah, because for nine years, he hasn't been a great defender. He was really good in Boston. He was good. Everybody was pretty good in Boston, and then people leave Boston and they're front of the line. Right, so.

It's called a scary Terry. The Miami Heat, like that. There's no one that comes here and gets worse at playing DMS. Like, hey, I was okay, and then I got to Miami, and now I'm really terrible at it. The whole point was. He just said Kyle Lowry. This is a guy, and then I got to Miami, and now I'm really terrible at it. Like, the whole point was... He just said Cal-Ori.

This is a go... And he was great at it before? I mean, nobody gets worse at defense. Cal-Ori did get worse at defense. No, is this your apology, Mike? Is this your walking it back? It was more heartfelt off air. I'm giving him a fresh start.

Jeremy had very good information. They're all data points. I talk to people that I respect, like, you, Izzy. You guys know Ball Jeremy, knows this team. I'm willing to say that, yeah, they need a scorer, and if he plays the way that he's played this season, sure. That's a clear and obvious upgrade. To me, that's a corrupted view of it. It's like, oh, we got this scoring. No, no, no. It starts with... I haven't apologized well enough for you guys. I don't know what to say. He's amazing

Oh, you're putting up the wrong things. It's it's he's a guy that yes his defense slipped in Charlotte When he's playing for an awful team and when he got to realize his dream of I'm more than just a guy who guards and hits an occasional Three I can be a lead score for a team. He did that it was awful It was great for him individually, but for the team and for the winning experience was awful. He comes here. It's like, I don't have to be that guy anymore. Remember when Trevor Oriza won the championship with the Lakers and then said, thanks, but I'm taking the same exact money to go to Houston. Why? Because I'm going to be an All-Star. And then he went to Houston, he went to Orlando and eventually he found out, oh wow, I'm not an All-Star Caliber player.

And he came back and he became a very good role player on the back end of his career. But you guys are talking about defense. This team needs somebody who can make tough shots, who can do things in the mid range, who can help Tyler Hero, their offense is constipated, and they need another shot maker to give some Tyler Hero relief.

So yeah, he'll play some defense, but that's secondary. That's not secondary. For them it is, they won't play anybody who won't play defense. That's my point. That's my point. It's not secondary. They won't play anybody who won't play defense.

So the fact that he's coming here and he's gonna get these minutes and he's gonna get these opportunities, he makes them better defensively, which by the way, they've been worse recently. They've gotten worse defensively. Like it's not your top five defense from earlier in the season.

So that is an issue. That is a concern and that is always going to be their priority. They got worse when Hero got back at defense. Okay, so? I just appreciate that Namin has said everything I was trying to say yesterday. It means a lot to me that we went on this apology tour Greg Cody any thoughts?

Yeah, this is a new and unimproved and let us show with the stu guys gamble on by draft kings Don lebatard Chris Cody does an impression. Just be careful dangerous game. It's a dangerous game I don't want to play this game. I'm saying man. I could do such a great kid. game. I don't want to play this game. No, he was saying, man, I could do such a great Kendrick's game. Oh, I don't want to play this game. He's like, man, I can talk to you also like him. This is who we're going to trust with this. I mean, you do it. Let's let Amin do it, I think.

Still gots. I think you could do it, Chris, because you did a great Charles Barkley. You're one for one there. Did no one just hear the segment we just did with Amin? Amin's judgment is not the best. So from the local drunk on whether or not you should do the impersonation of a black man stumbling over his words. Like you don't see the bad judge in that.

There it was. Moses Moody? Moody Moses? Moses Moody? You need that, it sounds worse. First, be careful man. We gotta, like we cannot do this. It's too close to the line.

This is where the line is. Something legitimately funny can't be funny because we're scared our ginger's gonna do something racist by accident. Carry the hell on, Dan. Rachel. Dan, the line is where we feel alive though. This is the Dan Levitar Show with the Stugats.

A formal and heartfelt and public apology to Greg Cody with no sarcasm in my voice. That was mean what we just did to you. And I want to apologize publicly on behalf of all of Metal Arc Media. You were going to ask a mean something that you wanted before we bring in David Sampson. You wanted to ask a mean something because a mean is an unusually qualified expert to attack this from all angles and I and we didn't get his answer so yeah wait that's the apology at the whole mental health day thing I it was all of it okay it was all of it I think what you did I'm apologize don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack.

Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack.

Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack.

Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. Don't backtrack. We should all apologize to one another all at the same time. Three, two, one. I'm sorry, guys. I'm sorry, guys. Jeremy, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, guys. I really appreciate it. I'm sorry, guys.

I'm sorry, guys. Jeremy, nice job. I'm sorry, guys. I'm sorry to the listeners. I'm sorry to the viewers. I'm sorry to the listeners. I'm sorry that they didn't say it. Because he's got to wait for a quiz.

I really miss you yesterday. I really miss you yesterday. Especially when the show was in the video. I couldn't believe you saying how this goes. I'm sorry. And DQ, I'm sorry. I'm sorry., it's usually you saying, houses go, sorry. She'd be apologizing. And it was yesterday when I was back.

He was a great job. I'm sorry, Thomas. Wait a minute. Greg Cody is saying in the middle of that, why am I apologizing? What? Well, who does Greg have to apologize to? First of all, you know, the best thing you can get from Mike is a fresh start. So Mike has granted Terry Rosear a fresh start, which Terry is going to be so happy about.

I am granting you a fresh start as well. Thank you. I appreciate it. Now, I want to, Amin is an NBA insider like very few other pundits are. And so he's in the know on this, I suspect. If Yanis is powerful enough to have a coach fired. And so he's in the know on this, I suspect. If Yanis is powerful enough to have a coach fired, I suspect he's also powerful enough to have a coach hired. And so do they run it past Yanis before saying, Doc, come on in.

So first of all, I would not say that Yanis got him fired. It wasn't like he walked into an office to get rid of this guy. But if you lose someone, you lose them. And it's clear to the front office that he was lost. Now to answer your question, I'm pretty sure that the conversation about Doc Rivers has been had with all relevant stakeholders. And the reason for that is because, hey, this guy, as Charlotte mentioned earlier, was actually around over a month ago, right? After the IST semifinal loss to Indiana, they brought in Doc as an advisor. Now, that doesn't mean he's been talking to the team, but he was definitely familiar with the coaching staff and familiar with some of the issues that Milwaukee has had,

also familiar to the front office staff. So there's an avenue, a channel there that doc rivers has had over six weeks or whatever that pick any other unemployed head coach at Van Gundy mark Jackson whoever they haven't had that same kind of access so when this thing starts to build steam yes you're going to consult your star player on this because not because you consult him on everything but because we got this last one so off You you want to make sure he gives a blessing to it David Samson Adrian Griffin fired with a 30 and 13 record What do you think of what's happening there and Janice's involvement? I think there was a mutiny on Michigan

There's no other possible explanation. I have Doc Rivers have been available. Well, you can say that Yannis hadn't signed that extension prior to Griffin being hired. It is unrealistic that he was not consulted. It's unrealistic that he wasn't consulted prior to the firing. The players did a Mutiny and Haslam was all in for it

and Doc Rivers was in waiting. And Doc Rivers, I assume, was part of the architect of that Mutiny because it's all planned and all set so I think it's just a dangerous precedent I know the NBA is all about player power but I'll tell you when you start with that sort of thing at 30 and 13 the analytics say they're 25 and 17 give me a break they're 30 and 13 I just think it's dangerous I don't I don't think it's this is about player empowerment or too much power to players.

I feel like this is a case where the locker room was lost. Management saw that. They saw that you can't succeed if you don't have the right structures in place. A lot of things that I've heard or read was that Griffin was not putting structure in place or people didn't feel like they knew what to do or where to go.

And the minute you start doing that, the minute there aren't clear expectations in an organization, people feel lost, they get frustrated, things start to blow up internally. So I actually think it was very impressive of the Bucks to say, you know what, we're gonna, we're gonna cut this now before we lose in the first round again. And everyone said we knew in January. David did something there that was more aggressive than what I did. He accused Doc Rivers of orchestrating the mutiny.

Like that's really aggressive, David. I think I said participated. Wait, David did that? Yes. I mean, you came out the gates with that take. No, I did not say it like that. No, no. I did not say it like that.

You're saying he participated in the mutiny. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there are a whole lot of questions here You merely alluded to it. I didn't say that David I want to ask you in 2003 you fired Torberg as your manager after 38 games and then Jack McKim became managing guys won the world series How did you know this isn't the right guy for us? Well, I think when he wanted isn't the right guy for us? Well, I think when he wanted to beat the shit out of me was the first clue that I had attacked me. That was one. But no,

we told him we're gonna be our manager in Montreal. And he was the manager who took over for Philippe Alou because of the relationship that Jeffrey Laurier had with him. And he was just terrible for the organization. He was there was nothing positive about him at all. And when the team started to not play well in 0-3 and he had spent money on Pudger Rodriguez, we were able to convince him. We did a mutiny on Torborg in order to get him out

when we did. And the fact that we got Jack hired, he didn't know Jack at all. That was a suggestion of our GM. And that was just lucky. So, but David, okay, of those details that you provided, how much of those were public at or around the time of the firing?

None of them. So it's possible that there's things happening behind the scenes that we don't know about that compelled Milwaukee to say, this can't be our guy. So the thing that I first went to, and I said this on Nothing Personal this morning, I went to divorce, I went to arrest, I went to some sort of harassment assault,

something acute had to have happened. And then I- Off the court you're saying you thought it was, that was your first thought, it was something off the court? With Adrian, that was the only explanation I could possibly think of for a 30 and 13 team to do it. And then I worked my way to Mutiny on Michigan because that's the other possibility

when this sort of thing happens. It's not that the owner has all of a sudden said, oh, he lost the locker room, we'll make a change. There are managers and coaches who lose the locker room on a daily basis, they get it back. You're saying you can never get it back once it's gone, but there's fights that's happened, there's disagreements, there's arguments.

This guy interviewed 14 times. You knew what you were hiring. It's like hiring Dan Campbell and saying, oh, I didn't realize he would be hard-nosed. He is what he is. Adrian Griffin was not an unknown entity. So I don't think that you can change your philosophy after 43 successful games.

It's not a smart way to go unless something acute happened or there was a few of full orchestrated mutiny. Do you not think that it's acute enough if you have Dame and Giannis together who are supposed to win a championship or it's a failure and you've lost them. Oh I hear what you're saying, but I think that after 43 games, you know, it's half a season That's pretty hard to say when you're set, you know fourth best record or third or second in the east or whatever

That there may be discontent in the clubhouse. They may not like the plays that are being called or the rotation There's myriad things that can go wrong between a coach in a locker room and his players. But to have something happen like this with Doc Rivers, all of a sudden ready to go, that is not just, oh, there's a problem in the clubhouse. David, the only thing I would say is, when I say lost a locker room, that to me is a very extreme statement.

I'm not talking about, man, F Coach, I can't believe he didn't drop the plate for me or he sat me, I'm not talking about those little tiffs that happened, I'm talking about one through 17. Nobody believes in you. It had to be so bad, I mean, for this to happen. Like we don't know anything about what was happening behind the scenes yet.

That's gonna leak in the coming days. I'm gonna tell you guys right now, because David, I was in a situation where we've hired a coach, Terry Porter, and then 50 games in before the All-Star break. Actually, we fired him during All-Star break when we were hosting All-Star weekend in Phoenix. You know, and we spent like a month and a half

lying to ourselves about, well, maybe, maybe, maybe, and this was a guy that he played with Steve Kerr, Steve Kerr and him were very good friends. So there was this thing of like, just give him some time, let him find his footing. But everything was pointing to A, the guy didn't know what he was doing. And this is a guy who had been a head coach

in the league before and had been a long time assistant with some very reputable coaches and obviously a long and illustrious playing career. But he didn't know what he was doing. And more importantly, everyone in the locker room believed he didn't know what he was doing. And more importantly, everyone in the locker room believed he didn't know what he was doing. You reach a point where it's not- You didn't know that when you hired him?

No, no. How is that possible? Because in this case, the case of the Bucks, you keep saying, David, you keep pointing to their good record, how many games they've won. They're winning in spite of Adrian Griffin. They're winning because Dane will hit a three, which is what he was brought in to do,

but he's not being used enough on offense. They will win because Yanis will score 64 points, and you still are barely winning against these teams. The Pacers have eaten their lunch. They should look better than Boston. They should look better than Boston. And I wanna be clear that this happens sometimes, Charlotte, where sometimes it just isn't clicking.

Again, we go back to Miami 2010 and 2011, nine and eight to start. It's like it's not working, but everyone, most everyone believed, look, we're going to figure this out. They reached a point where nobody believes, I'm not talking about just, nobody believed in the guy. And that's part of being a coach. And this is the part that breaks a lot of people's hearts because good people, smart people, hardworking people, lose their jobs.

But I say again and again, you have to have their trust and believe it. You don't have that. It doesn't matter. In the example you're using, and this part matters, Spoe was Wade's guy and Spoe was Riley's guy. Like that matters. That's what organizational support is.

Yes. Like you can allow the players to run the locker room if you want. If Wade had also been like, he ain't it, Spoe wouldn't be here right now. What, what, what, say, yeah, go ahead. You think that Wade saying that would overrule Riley saying that Spoe is it?

I think if 15 guys in the locker room said he's not it, he would have been out, you know how I know? There's a gentleman named Stan Van Gundy who was very successful and very tenured and knew what he was doing and lost the locker room. And Riles, who Stan was his guy, that was his guy, before Spoh, Stan was his guy, Riles looked at him and I said you got to go.

Because he lost the lock. In that situation, Riley's the charming Doc Rivers who gets to coach to a great self-court. And he would have been again. It's a little bit easier to do when you can step into the breach and just name yourself the coach. But at the same time, why didn't he do that with Spowe? Why didn't he have the itch, so to speak?

Because it wasn't a unanimous, this guy gots to go. They played 17 games, is why? I'm just saying, there's a part of this where you have the belief that nobody in that locker room is on his side. Samson, stay there. We're coming back with Samson after this.