The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - Local Hour: Michael Jordan vs. Nikola Jokic

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Dan has a take that he has been working for 35 years to curate but he can't bring himself to say it: is Nikola Jokic may be a better offensive player than Michael Jordan? Before we get there, Dan invites Andrew Hawkins to our livestream Sunday for the AFC Championship Game between the Kansas City Chiefs and Buffalo Bills, but suddenly he has something Sunday that just won't allow him to make it. Also, Mike may have killed his elementary school principal and he tells us about how he gets hit on in saunas. Plus, sure Nikola Jokic is boring, but is Patrick Mahomes even more boring? Then, we get deep into the debate about whether Jokic could actually be better than Michael Jordan, but that is quickly shut down when we remember Michael became the best player of all time after the first three-peat. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shadow show. Shadow show. Shadow show. Shadow show. Shadow show. Shadowing it. Shadow Show. Shadow Show. Shadow Show. Shadow in it. Shadow in it. I'd like to discuss this with Andrew Hawkins because maybe he can give me some advice on

my frustration. I don't know why it is that I have not been able to get a take off the ground even though I have spent carefully the last couple of weeks trying to get a take off the ground and have worked, I'm gonna say, 35 years, 35 years shaping takes and knowing how to get them off the ground. All right, I thought it was this particular take

for 35 years. I'm not gonna be out of my jurisdiction. Not this one, but it about thirty five years worth of ground okay in my career where i'm i know how to say things that will get attention and i don't understand why me saying on various podcasts and carefully because i haven't gotten all out there and had the full take,

but the take has been that Jokic is a better offensive basketball player than Michael Jordan. Okay, yeah, I'm shocked that that hasn't taken off the ground, wow, that is. I also don't think it's shocking. Yeah, I think it is shocking. That's kinda shocking. I think it's shocking, because I think everybody would understand like more unguardable even

more dominant. Yeah. But better offensive player I feel like. Well how do you define what's a better offensive player? How about statistics? Because he doesn't take guys off the dribble and pull up on him like Michael Jordan does. That's how I define it. How about the facts? How about instead of your eyes and what you think and the mythology, how about just the numbers? Okay, but you're going up against like the greatest myth in sports. And honestly, I mean, you're the most,

you're the most offensive thing in this conversation right now. Oh wow. So it goes you, MJ, and then Jokic. Yeah, you know, like no one goes through the day and sees like someone that's really good at flip cup and says man You're the yokich of flip cup not yet Not yet, but you see what he's doing you talk about a mythological figure like he will be after he retires

Did you see how bored he looked after he hit that 66 footer last night? Just an absolute savant and Michael Jordan was you know, a savant as well, but I don't think he was this complete. He needs five more titles. There's no way that body holds up for five more titles. I'm trying to give context to like the take. And if you look at the stats, okay, I give you that. You have to use your eyeballs as well though,

because also Wimby is probably going to take over and Wimby's just not as fun because he's eight feet tall. Jokic has that going too. It's not as fun when you have a clear physical advantage for what you're doing in the space that you're in. I just find it really funny that you guys are arguing myth, fun, and memories against facts. Myth, fun, and memories against facts. Myth, fun, and memories against, look at the rebounds, look at the assists, look at the efficiencies, look at the scoring.

Let me be clear, I don't disagree with you. In my mind, the most unstoppable basketball player I've ever seen is Jokic. We're wrong. We're wrong. No one's copping the Jokic shoes. I get the IG ads all the time. No one goes to the gym and says, you know what?

I'm gonna play like Jokic today. It's just not, like, he was a, Michael Jordan was a cultural phenomenon. I think he might be onto something though, because I think people are going to pull a Jokic by just doing something amazing and looking absolutely bored about it. It's no big deal.

I do this all the time. Izzy, the league is dying on his watch. Michael Jordan rescued the NBA. I feel like I'm in a Twilight movie. And brought it to unprecedented heights. You think Jokic is gonna be in Space Jam? I don't think I've ever been in a room with five people who agree with this take.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Sorry, okay Roy, my bad. Okay, you didn't take. I don't know. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Sorry, okay, Roy, my bad. Okay. You didn't speak. I was taking your silence as alignment. I shouldn't have to say anything. Okay, then we're on the same page. Thank you.

I don't like what's happening here. I'm just saying it sounds like a wild take. Also, you gotta look at the variables. The numbers may be better. Is the NBA the same? Do they play the same way? Well, that's an important one. Are the rules the same? Do they play the same way? Well, that's an important one. Are the rules the same?

That's an important one. You know, like could Jokic do that? Hon, don't tell me you're one of those guys that say Jordan would average 45 in today's game because he would. I'm not that. I'm not going to say Jordan would average 45. 44.6-ish?

12 rebounds and 12 assists? No. I like the idea that Hawk thinks that there's a physical thing you could do to Jokic that would stop him from scoring, that fouling him. The guy's arms are bleeding for the last five years, but Hawk has something that someone's going to do. I'm just saying the game is different. Unless you allow the other players to play with brooms,

to hit him with brooms, I don't know what you're talking about in terms of something is going to stop that physically What I remember when Shaq was this some form of unstoppable this and then you were like How can anything be that strong and then Yao Ming appeared and Shaq couldn't move Yao Ming What what do you have doing anything to Jokic that slows him down? They are already fouling him. I don't know, put on the Belmont on one of the TVs maybe? Two words for you.

Bill Lambier. This is the Dan LeBattor Show with the StuGuts Podcast. Andrew Hawkins strolled in very casually and just seconds before we started so I didn't get to ask him this off air and I'll do so clumsily on air and risk the response. Would you like to or are you available Sunday? The reason that we have a skeletal crew today is because we're going to be working Sunday during the games. We're gonna be live streaming What are you gonna be doing during the games on Sunday?

Watching them will be what I would I have what I've planned Alright, so I'm inviting you if you like to spend time with us here. We like having you around I'm inviting you now and it can be a surprise. You don't have to commit to it Sounds like I'm being put on the spot. You know I used to get in trouble for this? Like if I asked my mother something in front of other people where she had to give an answer, I knew it was hell to pay when I got home.

So if I'm like, hey mom, Timmy said I can come over, can I come? Or Timmy wants to come to our house. And she's like, the house isn't clean, there's no dinner, I didn't go grocery. And she's like, yeah, she can come. I'll take it a step further. That's a relationship, like you're in trouble. That happens to me all the time.

Anthony's on the phone with somebody trying to make plans and he's asking me on speakerphone, knows damn well I don't wanna go to this place. But is putting extra pressure? Do not ask me questions in public. Do not. That makes it, I do wanna come. I do wanna say that.

But the fact that you asked me on spot, that you would've got your ass whipped in my household. Well, I wouldn't have asked you on the spot if your mother had taught you to be much earlier to work than you were. Oh, oh, oh. What? Wow.

You think you're helping your cause now? Goodness gracious, my Sunday just filled up one. I just forgot that I had a prior engagement that I need to get to. Number two, I showed video evidence that I was behind a car accident in more than enough time to get here. Also traffic, one of the worst things Miami has to offer.

I would love to make a list of best things and worst things that South Florida has to offer. Traffic might be number one. Let's do this. We can actually do this. Let's put this together because these things, I don't know how long you've lived in South Florida, but these things have changed.

Well, I would love Hawk's perspective on it as a man that recently relocated to South Florida. So the new perspective is certainly one that I would welcome. The traffic, and I know this is empirical now. People will say that empirically they will find you the facts that suggest that Miami is worse on traffic now than Los Angeles is.

That it's globally bad on traffic because we are that overcrowded with people who want, you know, more freedom is what they're arguing. A whole lot of people, more freedom and more sunshine. A lot of sunshine, traffic is terrible. And as someone who moved from Los Angeles to South Florida, it feels worse than it did in Los Angeles. And maybe it's because you assume

that the traffic is there in Los Angeles, or there's still some version where you can predict the traffic in some way here it is completely unpredictable like completely unpredictable like it might take me who with no traffic I live probably 31 minutes from the studio it might take me anywhere from an hour and 15 minutes to an hour and 55 minutes on any given more I don't think it's completely unpredictable. When the kids are back in school, the traffic is totally bad around rush hour,

from three to seven, and from seven to nine a.m. My number one thing, my number one worst thing that South Florida has to offer right now is traffic. I can't get over the fact that he invoked your mom's name, well not name, but your mother in this quit Like how is his mother supposed to start? He start he started with his mother He said first of all he learned something in his very early years Yeah

You still haven't learned in your 40s and haven't that you haven't taught the people around you to know which is don't ask questions That I don't want to answer in public. He learned this one. You're doing a bit a bit right now? What is this? What is the bit that I'm doing? You're just going at people's character today. Hey, I welcome it because my mom will also whip your ass too. So that's the thing about it. It's not just a me thing. What kind of disciplinarian was she?

She was tough, man. She was tough because it wasn't, she wouldn't really whip my ass, but she was a very tough mom because it was very important to her. She had a lot of kids and she worked a lot. And so the iron fist needed to rule in moments where she wasn't around.

So she was very like, yo, I'm setting the boundaries and if you cross the boundaries, there will be hell to pay. And so the idea of the hell to be paid it did wonders it kept what was the hell to be paid if there wasn't there if it wasn't physical and all these years later you're still talking about the how it is you used to talk to your man on the spot no it's it so when you're parenting there's like I take my son for example he does not fear me at all. And it is the worst thing in the world.

Not because for me, but it means that everybody else, like when he's at school and it's like, oh no, if I forget my badge, and like his world falls down, and I'm like, who gives a damn what they say to you at school, I do not care about. If I tell you it's okay, there's not a teacher, a principal, a coach, anything that can do anything to you at school, I do not care about it. If I tell you it's okay, there's not a teacher, a principal, a coach, anything that can do anything to you. And it frustrates me because mine was the opposite.

Because in my mind, my mom was like, yo, you don't, as long as she doesn't find out, we are completely okay. And because of that, I can operate in a world where I don't give a damn if the boss says you need to learn to get here earlier. I come when I damn well, please Dan. That's clear You know and so because of that it's allowed me to You know find myself in the world and so that's what my mom was She made she was just very good and I think it was just she was in charge

Times have changed man people aren't afraid of authority anymore. When I was a kid, I'll just say it, my dad used to whoop my ass. Like belt at whatever tool he had used to whoop my ass. And even in third grade, there was this teacher, I don't know if she's with us anymore, probably not, Miss Harrison, thank you for everything. Like she would make troubled, like kids who got in trouble stand in the middle

of the room holding a book in each hand until their shoulders were on fire, crying, and then if that didn't work, or if you would just take you to the restroom, drop your pants, give you a smack on the ass. This was a public school. Yeah, no, that's facts. We had community whoopings.

Basically, my parents didn't have to whoop me. It was okay for the neighbors to whoop me. Really? Oh yeah, it was like, oh, he was misbehaving. And so. What? Yes, like. Community?

Yes, man. So you got beat twice. You got beat by the neighbors, and then your parents beat you because no, his parents did not beat him. I think that was the thing is it was like, everybody else who my friends and stuff would also get their ass,

they would get their asses whipped. And they would all talk about my mom, like, oh yeah, you don't want it with her. And I think the fear of like, well if they look at you that way, I don't even wanna know what you did to get that street cred, so I'm gonna make sure I stay in line.

This episode probably should come with a trigger warning. But also, I went to a Baptist kindergarten, elementary school, Westwood. This wasn't that long ago. I had a principal, Miss McCraney. She had a glass eye and toes that would curl up for whatever reason, she still wore open-toed shoes.

And she had a paddle in her office that had holes in it so it was more aerodynamic. So there wouldn't be wind resistance as she spanked your ass. This is a triggering, I also went to a school with that. This was after Hurricane Andrew. I mean, many of us are old enough to remember when the nuns did it.

That was something that was pretty popular. I think Izzy might get a $50 fine there. We need to do research on his third grade teacher and find out if indeed she is dead because he just killed her. And if she's not, that's a $50 Venmo fine. She looked pretty old in third grade, and that was a long time ago.

The Venmo fine bucket is presented by Venmo. By the way, we got a total right now. The total in the bucket is $49. Still seems low. It does. Well, Greg Cody is not paying. Oh, thanks. I mean, Lucy killed somebody, and that's a $50 fine.

Yes, also. Minor penalty, two minutes for not listening. I mean Lucy killed somebody and that's a $50 fine. Yes also Minor penalty two minutes for not listening Delayed penalty for Roy. I'm sorry. He said his mother did not Hit him. He said that very clearly and then you said he was getting community weapons after he said I wouldn't get it at home, I'd get it from the neighbors. Can I give him a pass? I think he read between the lines. I said my mom didn't whip my ass,

which is different than not getting hit. That's like, you know, there's levels to the whoopings. That's fine, he's gone, and the penalty is delayed and he's gotta leave the room. Sorry, I tried to save you, though. I don't know, you're doing... I tried to save him. Yeah, but that's not, you're just a coach on the field arguing a call.

We have instant replay now. The ruling is final. And we have the Venmo fine bucket, which is presented by Venmo. He also said that. I know, I was told to say it again. All right, who else would be presenting the Venmo fine bucket other than Venmo? I thought that was self-explanatory. I don't know, you see some of these pregame

shows you have the Dodge Ram pregame show presented by Built by the Home Depot. They're all over the place. Alright, well can you guys please turn the penalty box, turn the heat up in the penalty box. Can you please make it a sauna? Can you make, instead of him just sitting cool next to the ice, refreshed and stuff, let's make it a sauna and let's make him sweat a little bit. He's gotta take clothes off for that, right? You don't want him sweating in his clothes. Well, he should be in a towel, yes.

I mean, who goes, what do you wear in a sauna? What do the rest of you wear in a sauna? You go totally nude, I will not do that. Last time I was there, I was in Europe, everybody was nude, it's a thing. Oh, okay, I don't do saunas. I go fully clothed. Put it on the pole.

I've been hit on in my sauna before, and it's just like ever since then. Oh, what does that tattoo mean? It says tropical park, my guy. You wear it in the... Pasty, do you wear the nipple covers on there? I take them off before there, but I'm presently, don't send me, because I'm presently wearing them

under a thermal. So that'll tell you a little bit about my situation. OK. What happened in here? I will wear a collared shirt in a sauna. I am not doing nude in a sauna. Put it on the poll at LeBittard Show. Are you doing nude in the sauna, or are you doing a towel?

We were in this very group sauna situation. We'd do aromatherapy and stuff and it's just a lot of people in there. And right outside the sauna, the walls are glass, is a cold plunge pool and a hot tub, right? I like saunas, they're very helpful health-wise, but for some reason this sauna was burning my nose after like 12 minutes, I had to get out of there.

I got out of there and I went into the cold plunge pool, completely naked, came out of the cold plunge pool, and everybody in the sun was clearly facing my direction and I'm just like, man, if I were less cold than this, I'd be worried about shrinkage and stuff. Nah, it's freezing, I'm getting to that hot tub. I just don't see the need to be nude in a community full of people,

but you've lived in locker rooms all your life. I remember in high school, my high school didn't have doors on the bathrooms on the stalls because they didn't have doors on the bathrooms on the stalls because they didn't want... Drugs. Yeah, kids doing blow or whatever in the stalls. Oh man.

By the way... Good old Miami. Appreciate the setup. Can we show Roy Chillin' there with the Nicolas Cage pillow in the sauna? Because we have a sponsor for this sauna. Enhance your physical and mental wellness routines with Redwood Outdoors. Take advantage of special savings today. Visit redwoodoutdoors.com and use code Dan to save $175.

That's a huge promo code. His hat looks like it has been green screened and he is now presently taking off clothes. I don't know how nude he will be by the end of this segment. This is a message from sponsor Intuit Turbo Tax. Guys, Taxes was dealing with piles of paperwork and frustrating forms and then waiting and wondering and worrying if you're going to get any money back. Now, Taxes is easily uploading your forms to a Turbo Tax expert who's matched to your unique tax situation.

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I do want to circle back around with something that I said on the Shadow Show because whatever you think of my commentary, this is something we've talked about over the years a lot. Like so many sports arguments are, my brother and I, when we were very young, we used to, my mother tells this story, we would get into an argument fighting over a single hair, a single human hair, and so many sports arguments feel like we're arguing about the difference between something that is very comparable. Whatever you think of Michael Jordan and Jokic, whatever you want that argument to be on who's the better offensive player,

whatever the difference is differences it ain't much you can like high flying you guys are making all these arguments cultural phenomenon myth fun you're right about all of the michael jordan is all these things will be undefeated forever because our memories will not allow him to lose this argument but if i put it in front of you and you'll get you saying right now this is the best basketball i've ever played and the only reason he's not going to win

mvp's is the same reason Michael Jordan didn't win them is because they were bored with voting for Michael Jordan so they give one occasionally to Carl Malone but Yoko should get the MVP every year because those numbers like it's just an insanity it's Shaq shooting three pointers better than everybody and it's not just that it's it's the elements of everybody else's game that you've seen these highlights of over the years it's not just that, it's the elements of everybody else's game that you've seen these highlights of over the years. It's Magic Johnson, no look, perfect over the head,

bounce passes, which you don't ever see. When we go back and we look at these highlights 20, 30 years from now, we're going to be more odd somehow than we are now, and I still argue, I said this on the Shadow Show, part of it is he's playing in Denver, because if he was playing somewhere in Southern California, New York, Chicago, wherever else, would probably speak highly more highly of him even more

So I think as you said in terms of the boredom of MVP Voters if they give this to Shay gilded Alexander Which I believe the voters will do and they have their sort of classic reasons as to why I think it's one of the worst Case would be one of the worst case of voter fatigue for an MVP than I've ever seen. I don't mind any of those arguments. And I pattern myself an NBA casual. Jokic is boring.

Man, so boring. He just doesn't live it, dude. I don't care if he was in South Beach, LA, any big market, it's just not an exciting watch. It's so interesting that so many people say that because I disagree because what I'm watching is so confusing to my mind. This kind of mastery with what I know all around him

are the athletes you prefer to watch. All fast twitch, skying, flying dunks, and everything else. I prefer to watch those too, but the mastery is so graceful that it strikes me as a juxtaposition that is aesthetically pleasing that I've got this giant loaf of bread shaped like a cement mixer just rolling through the paint, but also can shoot threes better than anybody.

But also he's bored by it. Exactly. If he himself is bored by it, how can I get drawn in? It's still entertainment. I'm not disagreeing with his style of play. His style of play is very aesthetically pleasing. You don't see a guy that big be that skilled. But he is boring. Are the cheaps boring?

Because I was going to make this argument about winners in the NFL anyway, right? Winners do the boring stuff over and over and over again. The things that they know are going to win. And not everybody does that. Jokic does whatever it takes. He's so bored by it, he's like, oh, it's a double team, okay, fine, here's it. It's just obvious, it comes to him so easily,

and then the skill with all that shot making is incredible. And yeah, of course he's playing the best basketball of his career, shooting 47% from three to make up for Russell Westbrook, who doesn't bring any floor spacing there. It's absolutely crazy, and I'm telling you, you will be more impressed by this 20 years from now than you are now.

I don't find the Chiefs boring, and this is probably gonna drive some people crazy. Patrick Mahomes does not bore me, and Patrick Mahomes is probably a great comp for Jokic, because you tune in any game, you might see something that you've never seen before at that position. Patrick Mahomes is cool, he's a superstar, he's engaging, he draws the audience in, in ways that Jokic clearly doesn't.

And also, Patrick Mahomes is always there in the end. Jokic, we've had this conversation about him for three years, he's won one title. He's gotta be there in the end. Jokic, we've had this conversation about him for three years, he's won one title. He's gotta be there in the end. Well that's another thing. I think as opposed to sort of the thing we did to Peyton Manning, the things we did to Aaron Rodgers, hey you need to win another one,

I'm of the opinion that if Jokic doesn't win two or more championships, all of his teammates are gonna live the rest of their lives regretting that they didn't do it for him, thinking of themselves as failures because how good do you have to be live the rest of their lives regretting that they didn't do it for him, thinking of themselves as failures because how good do you have to be as the leader of team? Which is crazy because Yokel won't give a damn forever. I want to talk about his teammates in a second,

but I would argue, Hawk, that Patrick Mahomes and Kansas City this year have been boring. I don't like watching Patrick Mahomes and Kansas City this year have been boring. I don't like watching Patrick Mahomes, this version of him throwing for 177 yards, three 300 yard games. I do, your grandfathering in whatever that excitement is, I don't like watching him throw for 117 of 177 yards to Travis Kelsey.

Yeah, but they've had a lot of one score games and every one score game they turn to Patrick Mahomes. Sometimes they turn to their defense and they make plays and you know Patrick Mahomes is going to do something on that final drive. I understand this is the most boring incarnation, probably the most frustrating and the first time that I've really felt Chief's fatigue. That guy's just special. And they are boring and not because I don't think they play boring.

I don't think you would be any more excited about Patrick Mahal and Storm for 250 plus every game. It's boring because, okay, you're the best. We get it, we got it years ago. No, I don't think it's droning the way Pete Sampras is. I'm looking at it and I'm like, your receivers stink. That's not true though. I mean, their receivers are not.

They have the best tight end in NFL history. Their tight end is great. The tight end is great. Their receivers are not. They have the best tight end in NFL history. Their tight end is great. He's there. The tight end is great. Their receivers are not. Like those are all below average receivers, all of them. I don't think they're below average. Statistically, I disagree with that.

Well, they have guys healthy right now. They have guys healthy. I think right now they're, but I think last year, their receivers were, and that was like the exciting part of like, how are you gonna figure this one out, Mahomes? And he did. I think they're a step up this year. They've they battled injuries but I don't think they're like

that pedestrian they're 15 and one and we never talk about them that's what I'm saying about home for three Pete and we never talk about it I like it is boring Broncos loss either don't count it don't even it wasn't even played real exciting were these super exciting historically Hopkins and Hollywood Brown who is now healthy right like these are exciting receivers Were these fast look at that's exciting Hollywood browns Don't look at his numbers his production is a below average way that they use him is fun Pacheco is fun to watch because of his running cell that very few people in the league can replicate like maybe I'm spoiled from seeing

What their offense has been under my homes like this this is nothing. When he was a rookie on a rookie deal and they could pay everybody. When you make 500 million, you gotta win with people who aren't A-level talent. And the fact that he still can, yeah, it looks boring. It looked boring with Tom Brady doing the same thing. I'm saying that they're good receivers, but it's gonna look like that when you have a guy

that's eaten up your salary cap the way he is and the fact that he's still able to do it is what makes him great. But we're arguing, or you're arguing, that Nikolaj Jokic is doing the equivalent of three yard dump offs every time and he's not. He's doing what you say Patrick Mahomes does, figures out everything the defense throws at him

and sometimes it's spectacular. I didn't make the comp to Patrick Mahomes, I think you did. I did. Oh you did spectacular. I didn't make the comp to Patrick Mahomes. I think you did. I did. Oh, you did. But I'm saying I, Patrick Mahomes, we're bored by his greatness. I'm saying I bored watching Jokic

because there is no flair, because he's not super quick twitch, because he's not out athletic-ing. Like he's doing things that people ask, his size we haven't seen. But when you watch it, it is not exciting the way that we've been taught to be excited about people playing basketball.

That's why Michael Jordan has that kind of thing over him is because we had never seen somebody move like that on a basketball court. What about Larry Bird? Also boring. Woo! I'm sorry. Woo!

I'm 38. I don't remember him. I didn't grow up watching Larry Bird. When I watch him athletically, it does not strike me as super. I think... It's a limiton siren. Mahomes draws you in

because of his passion for the game too. And there is none from Jokic. Like Mahomes got the cool hair. He wants to go...and Jokic is is the like he's an incredible basketball player it's just not exciting I just I detect a slight bias here no bias bro who could argue that Jokic is like fun hold on I'm gonna argue it and I will continue to argue it because when I see things that don't have a precedent, but he's not having fun I okay. He doesn't get to decide what's fun for me. He gets to decide what's fun for him

I guess there are comments that you can and in my opinion on what I Carl Anthony towns. I'm good I don't like to watch Carl. I think you just threw that in there because I saw your You asked me two players. I didn't bring up Larry Bird. You volunteered that Larry Bird was boring. Woo! Woo! We have video evidence.

You just said this. Why would I bring up Larry Bird? You know how far down on my total pole, like to get to basketball players, you think Larry Bird? You think I'm gonna go from Yokey to Larry Bird? I don't know why you brought up Larry Bird, but I got an inkling.

I got a clue why you brought him up. Man, you're bringing up the Sharks, not me, man. You're the one bringing up the Great Whites. I didn't bring those up. I brought up one Great White, then you brought up another Great White, and you say both of the Great Whites are dull. All right, now I brought him up. Technically, I brought him up. Let then you brought up another great white and you say both of the great whites are dull All right, I brought him up technically

Not the one who said he was boring though put them on I'd like to throw a challenge bag And replay the replay the clip Of who brought up Larry Bird, okay You're asking the video team to get something there that they might not be able to get quickly. All right, hold on. They're gonna Look, I understand that you're spoiled and you're getting you're used to just showing up at a TV place and get whatever you want This is not the world leaders now, please. Okay, they're looking for it. I promise you and I see you slinking away So Larry Bird is boring now. He's the, we're. He's a boring athlete to me, yes. He does not move in a way where I'm like, oh shoot.

Can you guys just get me, because I'd like to do some measurements on this. Hawk obviously knows a great deal more football than I do. Certainly knows a million times more about how to be a receiver than I do. But when the Chief's receivers numbers are put in front of me, all I see is below average numbers that's all I see so you're telling me that they're not below average receivers but their production

says they're below I think says that they're below average receivers all of them when go get me Deandre Hopkins and Mike is right Hollywood Brown is supposed to make a difference but I don't trust him at all yeah he's fast they got they got, but I don't trust him at all. Yeah, he's fast. They got speed, but they don't play like an offense that has speed. They play like a defense that has speed.

You won nine routes for Patrick Mahomes. No, I want more than 200 yards a game from one of the best quarterbacks I've ever seen. Well, one 60-yard reception and a receiver that's capable of giving you, that adds to the excitement. Give me all their 60-yard receptions this year, and I will tell you why it is they're not exciting.

Because I don't believe they're a big playoff. They're not a big playoff offense anymore. But that was a draw to get Hollywood Brown, like come here, prove it here and increase your value and then he had the medical issue. I am talking about the receiving unit as it stands now is an above average unit to me for what their roles are. You're not going to have a single person who is, okay, this is a number one receiver.

He has 1200 yards, he's whatever. You have Travis Kelcey, you have DeAndre Hopkins, Hollywood Brown, and Xavier Worthy. To me, that is an above average core because you have a young gadget guy who can stretch the field, he's one of the fastest in the league. You have Hollywood Brown who plays the slot

and allows Xavier Worthy to be in his true position. DeAndre Hopkins is just as good as a possession receiver as he's been in that role. And you have Travis Kelce, who is the best tight end in the league. You don't think I can form the argument, I'm taking Kelce out of the equation, but you don't think I can form the argument

that that's the worst group of receivers left in the playoffs of all of the equation, but you don't think I can form the argument that that's the worst group of receivers left in the playoffs of all of the teams? No, Buffalo. I like them. I like the receivers too. I like Kahlil. And I like them over at commander, so no, I don't think you can make the argument

that they're, at worst they're three, they're likely number two. I would love to give that receiving court to Josh Allen, and I'm the biggest Kahlil Shakir guy that there possibly is and also He's on the IR, but Rashid Rice is also a part of that unit They got talent now last year right there and we and Rashid Rice hadn't come online But they've got some talent around him and now they're all getting healthy with the exception of Rashid Rice Is that still a thing by the way when he first got hurt?

They were like it could if they make a deep run. Can't I make the argument though that they are, they have specific skills, not, as Dan is saying, not complete wide receivers, not great wide receivers, where their amazing quarterbacks are taking advantage of those specific skills. And so I'm with Dan here. Like Xavier Worthy, he's fast.

Yes, he's not a complete receiver yet. I will take advantage of what he can do because I'm that offense and I'm Patrick Mahomes. Same thing with Josh Allen. I don't need a stud-wide receiver. I can buy enough time out there to just let anybody get open and make that person get a bunch of yards.

It's the quarterbacks taking advantage of those guys, no? Yes, yes, you have the quarterback who can make the most out of their abilities. But even when you are drafted in the position that these guys are drafted in, like you're drafted there because you have the quarterback who can make the most out of their abilities. But even when you are drafted in the position that these guys are drafted in, like you're drafted there because you have a certain amount of tangibles that other people don't have. Right. The Xavier Worley's, the Hollywood Browns, obviously DeAndre Hopkins is who he is, as well as Travis Kelsey that speaks for itself.

But they are drafted in positions to say, OK, this guy is above the rest. In his tangibles, and everything else that happens throughout the situation, what quarterback you have, what organization, will determine where you go from there. Just that fact alone, that you're sitting there with two first-rounders that were drafted, what, in the last four to five, six years or whatever? Like, they have an ability above most other receivers.

Fair enough, but not unlike the argument you guys are making with michael jordan when you say tangibles to me the most tangible is what's the production now where we draft and not how high was your jump at the combine on how fast you are cuz i know the receivers are fast you were these fast i don't want to race between worthy in hollywood brown but there to have the fastest receivers in the league. And the production doesn't indicate that.

Hollywood Brown has a ton of drops. Now, we should put him off to the side because we haven't even gotten to see what he would look like in Kansas City, but when he had an MVP for his quarterback, he was fine, he's a deep threat. He's a limited receiver, like he's a one dimensional receiver.

Yeah, his one dimension is I'll catch a 45 yard bomb. That's correct. Look up for me please, just look up for me. Offenses, big plays, and give me however, give me, does Kansas City have as many touchdowns as long as Saquon Barkley does this year? You tell me, do they have the five or the six, 60 yard touchdowns? They haven't been explosive, but their explosive guys have been hurt. Although Xavier Worthy, a first round receiver, that is explosive. The teams are built different though, Dan.

And I disagree on the Hollywood Brown thing. I think receivers need to be, receiving cores need to be right sized. There are very few receivers who are number ones, true number ones to me, that can just line up and win. And when I think of a number one receiver, I think of a guy who could just go up there and say, hey, it's third and six, we have to throw a slant for a first down. Everybody knows you're getting it, it's one-on-one, can that guy stop you?

Or a go ball, and contested situations in 50-50, or whatever, more times than not you win. Like AJ Brown to me, number one receiver. You cannot guard him one-on-one. Clear disadvantage, you will not win. It does not matter who is throwing the football. More times than not, he's gonna win. Hollywood Brown being in the Baltimore Ravens as a number one, he was never a true number one to me.

And there's a lot of receivers we can go down in. George Pickens is not a number one receiver to me. He's a number two, right? Buffalo doesn't have a number one, but I mean, I'd like Shakir too. They're very similar to the receiving court for the Kansas City Philadelphia's got a number one you can make an argument that philadelphia's pretty close to having to know who to number ones and and i you know i really

like mcclaren i think he's better than anyone kansas city has as a receiver anyone yet and now they're they you're looking at a kansas city team you're arguing on behalf of them being one of the better receiving cores left and they don't have a number one, and the other teams seem to have a number one. Mahomes had a 54 yard touchdown pass

to Xavier Worthy in week four against the Chargers. It was their longest pass completion on a scoring play since 2022. Aren't we making the same argument for different positions, right? What I'm saying is a great quarterback will make a system receiver into being pretty good, right? Into being a good productive receiver.

And you're saying a good receiver, AJ Brown, can make a quarterback better like Jalen Hurts because we see Jalen Hurts doesn't have the skillset as these other quarterbacks. What I'm saying is I don't gauge how good a receiving court is based on how good a receiving court is based on how good your top guy is. Most teams that win the Super Bowl

don't have solidified number ones for a reason. Because the number one receiver should be the guy that's open. So when you look at the receiving court Josh Allen has, there's a reason why they are better this year than they were with Steph Diggs a year ago. Because he is not feeling forced or pressured into throwing to a guy because I have to get you touches.

I have to get you the ball in this situation. And also you hear the Amari Cooper interview from this week where he's like, I'm fine with my role. He's had like eight receptions in the last five weeks because it doesn't matter. If we need it, we'll get to it. Matt Collins is not a guy that we should should be a household name the way that he is. Josh Allen is not only elevated he's playing his role within the receiving corps the right way. But you're giving you're

extending to worthy and Brown something that you're not extending and Hopkins to Amari Cooper when you make your assessment of the Buffalo receiving corps. You're making Hopkins something that I don't think he still is. If you give me right now, who do I want right now? Hopkins or Cooper, please give me Cooper. I want that. When they traded for Cooper,

I said it was the most impactful receiver trade of all of them. Devontae Adams, as well as DeAndre Hopkins, for the same reasons you said. What they needed in their role as a receiving core that they did not have was a true route runner who can beat man coverage. So when that comes up, he has now the ability to get open.

The first time the Bills played the Ravens, none of those guys could get open because they could, they are not true route runners, they're not separators, they're not one-on-one, let me create separation for my quarterback. The last time they played the Chiefs, Amari Cooper is the one with the balls down the field because he's running the routes to get open He's also getting the go balls. And so when I'm talking about Amari Cooper versus Deandre Hopkins I'm not talking about Hopkins is the same Deandre Hopkins that he's been at his height

I'm saying for what he's gonna be asked to do with the Kansas City Chiefs He can still operate that at a high level because he's the possession guy. Let me get from you guys some commentary on this because you've heard me talking about for years, I have a hard time separating when you have team sports. Who's responsible for who's success in everything that we're talking about.

I have always thought, since this run started, that the Denver Nuggets starting five is, five players, as strong a five as you can get. But when I dive into the numbers, they're terrible when Jokic isn't on the floor, they're unprecedented offensively when he is. And I really do wonder about what I'm about to say. So Cade Cunningham, I thought Izzy had more doubt about Cade Cunningham than there should be. He is the lead player on a 500 team and just recently he had two consecutive games with

double digit turnovers, which is something that's never happened in the sport before, but he by himself has a team overachieving that is decent, but he's their clear number one usage rate player, and because of that, he's going to be in the All-Star because they're a 500 team. I wonder if I just put Jokic on the Pistons, whether they too would have the record that the Nuggets have. If I put Jokic on any team in the league it makes me wonder, well how good is that starting five really in Devon Rd? Because Aaron Gordon wasn't this when he couldn't just dunk everything in Orlando. He became a very good fourth player, championship worthy fourth player,

when all of a sudden all he's getting is all these lobs at the rim. How good actually are Jokic's teammates? I mean if you think about Aaron Gordon, what he was supposed to be in Orlando like you mentioned and what he sort of settled into as effectively in my opinion the best role player in the league, that's almost a gift, right? You're getting a guy who is supposed to be a star and it's like no, no, it's almost like Amari Cooper. I'm okay playing this role and so he's an elite role player, right? The other guys that won a championship with it anyway,

KCP is an elite defender in the perimeter and a really good shooter. So it was almost a great, perfect fit around Jokic. But I think what we're seeing now is that, yeah, he can adjust to whatever teammates he has. He and Russell Westbrook are making magic out there sometimes. And so, yes, if you put him on the Detroit Pistons, as long as there's some level of balance there,

it's not just a bunch of Jaylen Durans around him, then they will absolutely be top of the East. The reason I ask the question is because Michael Jordan wasn't win 50, 60 games every year until he got a top 50 player by his side. He was somebody who would get to the playoffs and then end up losing to people who had better number twos and number threes even though he was the one scoring 63 and boring Larry Bird was calling Michael

Jordan God in the locker room after Jordan had lost in a playoff game. I really am, I really do wonder if I put Jokic on any team in the league, am I getting to 50 wins? I think absolutely, and I think that's part of the gift, that's part of the brilliance of Jokic is he makes everybody else better. Whoever, like Cade Cunningham, I like him. He's, you know, last year with bad teammates

and a worse coach was not doing very well. That's where I formed that opinion on him. This year looks a lot better. Still has a bunch of turnovers, but he is not elevating everybody, right? There's actually just better players around him. Tobias Harris and whatnot. But I think with Nikola Jokic,

he would make everybody around him better, and that's just something that you can't really measure. So Jalen, Durin, Cade Cunningham, and Tobias Harris. Okay, I'm Googling who they play for. Put it on the poll please, at Lebatard Show, are the Pistons Cade Cunningham, Tobias Harris and whatnot? Dan, I'm 39 years old. The only memories that I have of Michael Jordan

are when he was winning. I don't remember the roadblocks. I needed the documentary to fill in those gaps. When he was losing to the Pistons, was Michael Jordan certifiably consensus the best player in the league? Yes. Just a ball hog.

Just viewed as a ball hog because he wasn't winning. I mean he changed the whole way people thought of the NBA. They thought you have to win with a big guy. Now you have to win with this, now you can win with a guard. But I'm with Mike here, like when he was losing to the Pistons, there was still that conversation of, oh yeah, he doesn't pass the ball, he can't

be the best player in the league, right? Total ball hog. That's what Michael Jordan got. He was getting crushed at every turn and then he started winning all of the championships, but that's how it happened. We treated him really badly, but it was before social media, and so he couldn't win even though Lambier, there was a play where Lambier cut his leg with a machete. When did it turn? When did they start looking at Michael Jordan as the greatest, like what year? When it was like, oh, he's the best.

I think it was the first three-peat. Like the first three-peat where they're just like, wow, this is incredible, I don't think anybody's done this before, and it's a small guard doing it, best player ever. So 94? Do you realize- I was seven.

How absurd it is to say the sentence the first three-peat. Hey Jeremy. Yes Mike? Have you ever had a fireside conversation during football Sunday during the winter? Sure. We don't have a lot of fireplaces down here, but I've had the premise of it.

I wish I could, but it's South Florida. When it gets down to the 60s, we're like, we're're bundled up but certainly no fireplaces. Still too warm for that but we do have our football Sundays and one thing that always makes football Sundays good and I know you've had plenty of experience in your life with this Miller time. Oh yeah Miller Lite makes the winter better it makes football Sundays better it makes even hanging out around you better. Thanks Mike that was kind. I appreciate that. You're my friend. When I have a Miller Lite in my hand, pretty much everybody is my friend because we are like-minded.

Because we like beer that actually tastes like beer. And now, the new year, it's the perfect time to have a Miller time. Miller Lite is brewed for taste. People out there, I want you to listen to me. And Jeremy, you too, because you know, it hits you just different than other light beers. The original light beer since 1975, and still the very best one. Miller Lite, great taste, 96 calories.

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