The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - Local Hour: The Summer of Pablo

Episode Date: July 18, 2025

"Your eyes, he doesn't like 'em." Pablo's journalism caused real fallout, but none as intense as what's happening between Tony, Hawk, and Domonique over Tony's football skills. Also, we're all happy for Damian Lillard, right? Today's cast: Mike, Hawk, Roy, Billy, Jeremy, and Tony. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the Dan LeBattor Show with the StuGuts Podcast. Is it the summer of Pablo Torre? It might be the summer of Pablo. Pablo right now is on an all time tear. And now there are consequences for Pablo Torre's incredible podcast, Pablo Torre finds out. And it's reporting as as the NFL executive director, Lloyd Howell, I'm so happy I didn't say Jerome Powell.

It's a tricky time, especially with like, there being a white Jerome and all, pretty crazy. But Lloyd Howell has stepped down and all indications are this is because of the incredible reporting of Pablo Torre, that is real consequences, real reporting that it's actually quite refreshing to have respected journalism being done and to not have the person at the center of the turmoil

say it's all fake and actually have shame about it and is actually held accountable and stepped down. I imagine this is because a ton of pressure from the NFLPA because like a lot of people, like Pablo Torre's audience, they found out together. I think it was a distraction thing too. And he says that in the letter. There's probably a lot of calls, a lot of back end conversations, a lot of what the hell is going on. And it didn't stop. It was like, you know, the smoke and there's fire and there just kept being

more and more and more smoke. And there's a part of me that is like, hey, they for like, they had to stop the bleeding because it was, it's probably gonna continue to unravel is my opinion. I mean, if I know Pablo over this last summer. The summer of Pablo. Summer of Pablo. Yeah, I would expect there to be more and Pablo already uncovered more.

And when you get to the territory where the first one's not an outlier, and there's a second one, and then you have a resignation, you kinda think that there's more there. And now, Dampay and Nauta's on the case. You have award-winning journalists probing and digging deeper. We saw what happened yesterday

with the Wall Street Journal's reporting. And I would say that for those that don't know, Rupert Murdoch, notoriously pro-conservative icon, also owns the Wall Street Journal. I imagine they were prepared for it's all fake, I didn't write that letter and there's probably more going there. We'll see. But certainly a huge transition point for the NFLPA. I wonder where they go from here, who they trust. I don't know if this is going to mean seismic change, but I guess the executive director stepping down, Hawk, is pretty seismic. Yeah, it should be seismic. And I mean, look, I've obviously, I've been a player rep as a player. I come from a family of athletes that have been in the NFL and

obviously a part of the PA. So my first exposure to the union was not just me as a football player, right? Like I have real family that I've seen the struggles and everything that goes into being an NFL player during, before and after. So this is a topic, an organization that means quite a lot to me because I understand what happens to these players. And it's tough because it feels like, okay, it's a union for rich people.

Yes, they make a lot of money early on. Yeah. But here's the issue. It's a misnomer, right? It is because to get to that position, this takes almost every waking moment of your life and focus from the age of like eight or nine to put yourself in position to make this kind of money. And the average NFL career, as we know, is what, 3.3 years.

Probably the average earnings is around three million. So take that and then stretch it over the amount of time from 21 to 65. And you'll see that it's actually not that different than normal people. Yeah, you can go get a job afterwards, but I am telling you, it is hard to be both an elite level NFL player and expert at something else

right out of football. It's why you guys face such an uphill battle every time there's a work stoppage. Absolutely. Because you got one side that has all the money, that has generational wealth, can't afford actually a season, even though it's a huge economy,

can't afford a season not being played whereas the average NFL player has that three-year lifespan is is trying to get to the point where maybe I can get to a second contract and set up generational wealth and right now if I have a work stoppage I lose 25% of my athletic prime you can't do that and that's why there haven't been work stoppages really since before I was born. It's tough. It's tough to put yourself in a position of leverage to actually get things that chip away. And not only that, the issues that are voted on or that are talked about are exclusively done with current players. Now, here's my issue with that. And it sounds like, oh, this is the old player who has an issue because now he's the old player. No, we all understand experience and time. with that comes wisdom, with that comes man,

I wish I would have done X, Y, and Z different. A lot of the success that I've had post NFL career, even during my NFL career off the field, is not because I'm smarter than anybody. No, it's because like I told you, I had family that said, hey, I did it this way, this was right, I did these things, these were wrong, do this, right? So I had the answers to the test.

And for a lot of the current players, you're voting and you're discussing things and you're making decisions that don't have the experience that people who have gone through this and that are dealing with some of the voting that happened when they were players later on. I say that because when you have leadership, and here is the biggest issue and why this was the result

and had to be the result. When you have leadership that is worried about positioning themselves, when you have leadership that have goals that put them in front of what the actual mission of the organization is, leadership that wants to make decisions in a vacuum without considering the opinions and how it affects everybody else.

Those are all symptoms of bad leadership. And you know what comes with bad leadership? Bad results, right? And that is not just Lloyd Howe. That is any of them. So that is my issue and that is why this needed to happen. And I'm hoping going forward, they put somebody in that seat who understands the mission that they're fighting for

and it's tied to it more than just, this is a great job that pays three plus million dollars. So with the collusion and then the ensuing coverup, is there a chance here that Howell was acting in the best interest, some sort of rationalization for his behavior, or is he just fully corrupt and just in the pocket of the NFL?

And if so, what are the lessons here for the NFLPA moving forward to make sure something like this doesn't happen again? I will not say that he was fully corrupt. I won't even say anybody who was a part of the decision to keep these things under wraps until Pablo blew the top off, didn't have the, maybe that, in their mind, what was the best interest.

Yeah, that's what I want to seize on. Like what would be the rationalization? Like, let's bury this because it serves the interest of our union. I'm struggling to wrap my head around. Those are not necessarily bad people. You can find plenty of people that say good things about Treader and Howell. So what was the rationalization? I find it hard to believe that it was just all sinister.

Let's just help the people that we're supposed to be representing our union against. Let's help them out. I'm sure there was some sort of rationalization there and that's what's missing for me. What kind of possible benefit to the base were they exploring to help them do this? Yeah, I can't speak to that

because I'm not in those conversations and I probably haven't talked with enough people to make that determination. But if I was to guess, I would say it was trying to avoid a situation just like this, not because you're being ousted or you have to resign or people are questioning your leadership, but because now you have the Union questioning like their position and

there's gonna be a bunch of opinions around and it basically is a divided group. Okay we went in here let's say we lost the running back issue that Pablo talked about there was a collusion and whatever the quid pro quo was to say hey we're all gonna keep this buried well maybe it's because we know what's coming up and we don't want the players so focused on questioning leadership that we lose our ability to come together and try to rally for what the big conversation is.

That's just a guess. Okay, but how do you fix it going forward? What I've always said to anybody who will listen at the union or the PA since a player and beyond is what I just talked about. I love to hear Dominique Foxworth talk about the PA union and the issues that face player unions not because he's smart. Of course he's smart.

I'll say with him, by the way. Harvard Business School, all those things. But more than that is he gives the damn. He gives the damn because it's connected to him. And he has friends that he's seen struggle. Does Dominique Foxworth need all the benefits that come with the PA? I'm sure at some point he's used them.

He doesn't probably need them. I might not need him as much as the next guy, but it's not about me. And I understand that spectrum of players that you're representing and trying to put in a better situation than the players that came before us had it. And that connectivity is what draws me to it, right?

There's generations and we are all tied together. And I don't think the PA has done a good enough job of bringing all those generations together collectively, because the more information you have, the better decisions, the more informed those decisions are that arm you to make that progress. Huck, I love that, but you invoked the name of Dominique Foxworth. Did you know that he basically called you a bad scout? Did you, have you heard that yet?

No, I have not. Okay, he said your eyes are, he doesn't like them. What? What? What? He says your eye for talent, he doesn't like it. Because he said that I wasn't able to play at a low level College football has a tight end. So he's going to he doesn't think you could play at a low level tight end. Exactly

How does he know he hasn't played low level football? That's what I'm saying, you know, he hasn't seen that he doesn't know him Yeah, I as if I was a guy who paid his first semester playing college football Mmm, I know what the walk-on experience exactly. Okay. I know walk-ons across the country. I had to stack myself against them to get out of that zone. I know you could have fit in that walk. Thank you, Hawk. And Dominique was laughing saying that Hawk was making fun of you. And what I'm telling you is that he said that my eye that you do not have an eye

for town. That's what he said. Crazy. But we did. Jeremy put together a list of schools that I could have played for. If we had that situation, I would have gone down that path. Yeah, we went through it. I mean, from Cleveland, Ohio, Case Western Reserve University, Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh,

Claremont Mudd Scripps College in Claremont, California. Of course. Buena Vista University in Storm Lake, Iowa. Go Beavs. I mean, Vermont State University, Castleton University in Storm Lake, Iowa go Beavs I mean Vermont State University Castleton campus in Castleton, Vermont st. Olaf College in Northfield, Minnesota Yes, the College of st. Scholastica in Duluth, Minnesota and of course from Tiffin, Ohio Heidelberg University Heidelberg Yeah, come on. He could have played at any of I could have gone to any of those Let's be real come on Dominique was laughing saying that no that's not true. Yeah, no, you definitely could have played for those schools.

I just wanted to let you know that it's on site with Dominique with me. Why didn't you? Because I ended up trying to play basketball. And most of those schools are basically like, no offense, here comes the offensive part. If you have a pulse, you can get on those teams. I feel like you got two legs. There's no scholarship.

You got two legs, go. Maybe you could have been a two-sport athlete at those schools. I couldn't. Why didn't you consider it? Because you know what? I didn't want to go to Heidelberg. He could have been as many sport athletes as he wanted to be at those schools.

Certainly at Heidelberg. At a Buena Vista college too or university. I don't know if it was university or college. I don't remember. It was Buena Vista university. University, okay. It's pretty funny that that's in Storm Lake, Iowa. Yeah.

Are those your real options or did we just make those? No, no, those were all real division three college football programs. Oh, I thought they were like schools that were actually recruiting. No, no, no, no, no. They were not off zero actual offers. Yeah.

OK. Because I went to play basketball. Yeah. Yeah. But the whole point is it's on site with Dominique. Anytime he's here in Miami, it's on site. And I've declared that. So I don't know if you want to join me,

because he said that you don't have a good eye for talent. That's crazy. I think that you would need to. Are you afraid? You're now recruiting people. No, no, no. I'm just because he's been no, because he's been offended by Dominique Foxworth. And now I want to see if he bothered. No, I, no, I'm just because because he's been no cuz he's been offended by Dominic Foxworth

And now I want to see that bothered no I mean, it's not you offended me any time you talk about my effort talent exactly that's literally what prides himself in that I pride myself on my ability to project people's top in town Well, Dominic fought for your ability to protect your eyes for talent. So yeah a little respect for him. You're right He didn't want you to die on that, Tony Hill I do think that if you just express interest in playing football for these programs They'd take a look at you. I could probably go right now and see your measurables and be like yeah We could we could let's let's bring you in Let's see what we can use you have me run a couple routes get a chip block off. Did you graduate college?

Do you still have? I'm not asking like a disrespectful tone. That's true. If you go back and get a master's, you could probably get a football team. That's true. I don't have any, I have eligibility because I didn't play. Oh, your clock might have started though.

Right. It's like when you enroll, I think you have like six years to play for. Yeah, but what if you go to the army or like a missions trip and come back to this guy. Brandon Wheaton's like, you know, 35 years old. You should join the army so that you then can try to write directors.

Join the reserves, right? And then go to whatever reserve college. Yeah. Thank you for your service by the way. A college full of reserves. Yeah, you'd go join the armed services and then you go back and then you fight for your COVID year. And I feel like you might have a shot.

Yeah, gray shirt somewhere. There's also colleges that aren't a part of the NCAA and there's like- NAIA schools, yeah, absolutely. There's no rules. And I think you only have to just enroll in one class, right? Cause you could be a grad transfer, right? So you already graduated.

You gotta be a full-time student or something. All right, so just take like 12 credits worth of like the history of rock and roll online. That's nothing. Yeah. I like Buena Vista though. I got my eye on them. Howdy folks, it's Mike Ryan.

If you were listening to the show just a couple days ago, you know that Jeremy came up with the top five breath of fresh air type of lists, it's Mike Ryan. If you were listening to the show just a couple days ago, you know that Jeremy came up with the top five. Breath of fresh air type of list, a really refreshing feeling. And on that list, Jeremy, help me out. I mean, that first sip of a Miller Lite at the barbecue on a hot day, crack it open, that sound, feelings better. That sound ultra satisfying. And then that first sound, ultra satisfying.

And then that first sip, it hits. And yes, while it's hot outside as it is presently cools your body down, it hits a little different down here in South Florida. But as someone that had Miller Lite north of the border, and basically football tailgates as the leaves turn, there really isn't a bad time to turn into Miller time. Next time we should do a top 5 times to have Miller time. I like where your head's at because it's every time. That's right.

Every time. Morning time, well scratch that. Nah, morning time. Morning time if you need it. If you're on vacation. If you're on vacation. If you're on vacation. If you're in a morning tailgate there's a noon game.

It's Miller time somewhere. Miller Lite. Great taste. 96 calories. Go to MillerLite.com slash Dan to find delivery options near you or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. Cheers to 50 years of Miller Time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. Don LeBretard. Mike Bryant's in there and he's the one with a baby. He's the one who's got to like worry 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. Edmonton? Stugats! I care more about Matthew Kachuck than I do my daughter. This is the Don Lebathor him with the summer pop-up news, but it was breaking news that happened overnight and we have a former I-ranking member of the players union in the studio with us in

Andrew Hawkins, so I wanted to take advantage of that. Everybody wants to laugh at the couple from the Coldplay concert and Jeremy you didn't get your shots off yesterday. You were workshopping a take that this is the best internet moment that has nothing to do with politics since when. that has nothing to do with politics since when? I'm not even sure, because to me, it's been so long since we've had one of these moments where just everyone is in on it making jokes. There's no political division. You look at the replies on Twitter,

and there's not people trying to turn it into something on either side of the political spectrum. It's just everyone of every race, of every religion, of every creed, just getting jokes off. And it feels like, I think I saw Katie Nolan say that it feels like Twitter in 2014. Like it just feels like the most pure version

of what it is that we used to do. And yes, will it ultimately end in these people's lives being ruined? Yeah. But this is a great moment. Yeah, it's a, yeah, the internet occasionally rises to the occasion and says, hey, in one bipartisan voice, let's destroy these people's lives.

Yeah, the last 24 hours have been just a collection of people from both sides of the aisle saying, it's fun to make fun of this couple. Yeah, it's already pretty bad. Let's make it worse. Yeah, for sure. So that's what's going on right now. I think the best internet moment, and now this

did include politics, but the last one I kind of took over was the Vance memes. And I think Hock mentioned before the show, like Hocktua probably, that had no politics associated with it. Definitely Hocktua, and I don't know if it's an algorithm thing, because also I don't even know the JD Vance moment you're talking about. No, the memes that came out of the Oval Office meeting, you haven't seen the- Not on black Twitter, that's what I'm trying to tell you. I don't think- Wow. It didn't cross over. This crossed over to everybody's Twitter.

It's funny, he has a jury curl in the photo of all things, JD Vans. I wish I would have seen the meme on my very probably black-centric algorithm, I don't know. No, black Twitter, the last time something happened like that was the fight in Montgomery. The Montgomery vote fight. That's a good one.

That's a good one. That one didn't get politicized though. Right, it did, it did. And Hawk 2 eventually did too. There's two different angles on good one. That's a good one. That one didn't get politicized though. Right. It did, it did. And Hawk Tua eventually did too. There's two different angles on that one. Hawk Tua at the beginning was like, I feel like it was a, you know, unison, this is a funny moment type of thing.

And then it got too much. Very much like this moment where everybody kind of has the similar take. Do you remember the blue and black dress versus white and gold when everybody has to see it differently? This is what that feels like. Just this pure moment of everyone on the internet

talking about the same thing without, hopefully, the opportunity for it to go anywhere political. Inevitably, this guy is gonna end up hosting his own podcast or they're gonna have a reality show with a couple. No, he's gonna become a brand. He's already being pitched on what is your brand? What does your brand mean to you?

We need people alerted to your brand. I can't wait for that LinkedIn post. So I'm showing you just, I just typed in my name and Tua, and this is days ago. This is not like a lot, this is every day. Wow, you live in a unique hellscape here on social media. Is this a Hawk? Everyone is asking is this Hawk Tua?

Is this Hawk Tua? So in his mentions. It's every day, I just get. Because you have the great handle of ad hoc. Yeah, yes. It's like they're asking you, is this Hawk Tua? Is this Hawk Tua? So in his mentions, because you have the great handle of ad hoc. Yes. It's like they're asking you, is this Hawk Tua? So they're asking Tua if this is Hawk? No, well, they're asking.

Sometimes people are asking, Grok, is this Hawk Tua? Grok, is this true? You know, it's like, at Grok, is this true? And then there was a bug on Twitter that if you just do anything similar, Grok was like chiming in. And so since Hawk was a similar to Grock and Tua was similar to True, I just get everyday random tweets of at Hawk is this Tua.

How'd you get at Hawk? Grock, True. Like, did you have to buy that or you just got in early? I, there was a guy that had it. He lived in Mexico. And this is before I was anybody. And I'm still not anybody, but you get what I'm saying. And I was like, man, I would like to graduate

from Young Baby Hawk, which was my Twitter name at the beginning. And so we followed each other and he was a Giants fan. And so I was at one point, I'm like, hey, what's up, man? He's like, yeah, I'm not looking to sell it. I'm like, what if I got you assigned Eli Manning jersey? And he was like, now you're talking. So I did that and sent him a signed Eli Manning Jersey

and he gave me the name. That's it, just an Eli Jersey? Yep, yep. And again, my cousin's signature looked just like Eli. So really the price was about $79. It wasn't just, and it might've been a knockoff Jersey. It's like buying a wide receiver, a watch so he can take his number.

There you go. Yeah Yeah, you got it across all social platforms. I did now that was a little bit Then you had to know some people it started there like then you had to become somebody then you had to become somebody and then Then when the platforms were introduced they would hold the name it was they would reach out to me and be like hey This is some deep state. They were have new platform. Do you want ad hoc? That's somebody's shit. Yeah, that is absolutely somebody's shit. If I've ever heard somebody's shit, it's that. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Where does the story go from here, Jeremy?

Because hopefully it doesn't go to the obvious place of the internet's gonna destroy these people's lives. Hopefully it also doesn't become like a Tiffany and Gommash type of thing. That was another one where the internet kind of got behind in unison and it wasn't political until she decided to make it. That MF her over there is not real,

having the meltdown on the airplane. I didn't know her from name. That was a good one. Name basis. That was a good one. Who the F is that or that thing isn't real. That's not what I'm talking about. No, and then she became, she had an apology two weeks later,

definitely like a manicured apology and had people reach out to her and say, what do we do, how do we turn you into a brand? The very best case scenario is that this basically runs its course over a week and then we never hear from them again, right? Like that's the best case because you never want it to evolve to the place

where now either we have to feel bad for the way that we piled on or we learned other stuff about these people that isn't just funny that Chris Martin started to ask every single couple shown on the screen at the concert after that, are you a real or legitimate couple? Yeah, he kept roasting them

at the end of the show. He kept roasting them the rest of the show, every time they showed a couple on the screen. And in the singular moment, I'm sure he's not thinking, I don't think anyone is thinking that video is gonna go viral, right? Nobody's thinking about it. No one's thinking like who's whipped out their phone

to record the Jumbotron. Exactly, and so like, that was why I was wondering what the reaction was from them. Everybody's going. You know how that's how the video like came about somebody tweeted Does anybody have the video of that couple at the Coldplay concert? And then I think somebody quote tweeted with that video. Hey Ben Maybe it ends with Chris Martin singing at their wedding like that would be like it all that would be the alright

That is the best case scenario in the long run for them. How is the company stock? What if the stock was down and this was all a... That's a Nathan Fielder ass plan if I've ever heard of it. Can we get Pablo to find out if the company he's a CEO of set this up for the amount of, think about it. I mean, imagine how many times this company has been mentioned in the last 24 hours. Well, if he's CEO of a public company,

he's gonna be all right. He should be fine. Either way. Well if he's CEO of a public company, he's gonna be alright He should be he should be fine either way well just saying you should be he should be fine Socks up isn't it jamming down libertard to us residents For one powerline road second down a nine I didn't realize we had a substitute complicated legacy. Brought to you by Headquarter Toyota. 441 Powerline Road. Second out of nine. This is the Don LeBattar Show with the StuGuardz. Did you see the shocking NBA news? I don't know how they kept this secret.

There were no whispers, there was no NBA sentel. We all just kind of thought that maybe Damien Lillard would get a surgery and if he makes a decision, it's close to the camp. But out of nowhere, Damien Lillard, much of the, he Twitter dismay by the way, decides he's going to go back to Portland. You want to talk about a nice story. That is a wonderful bow on his career. He's got to make a decent amount of money for a guy his age coming off of that injury.

And Portland gets to have their legend back at a steep discount from what it would have been had they caved and given him his contract. And you wanna talk about consensus where everyone is on the same side? I think even Heat fans would say that of all the destinations that Damien Lillard could go to This is the one that makes everybody happy

I think it's an awesome story It reminds me a little bit obviously of when Dwayne Wade got traded back here after being in in Chicago and then Cleveland Where it just didn't work out. I don't think that happened neither of those two things happened, but going rocky five I'll go into Milwaukee and having that experience. Obviously like look, the guy they're getting back here is not the same guy that they would have been signing to the contract. It's several years later, post Achilles injury.

It's a different thing than continuing to pay him to be there and mentor those guys for the last couple of years. At the same time, you know, they're in a decent enough spot now. Yong Han Sen, that guy, has an opportunity to be really special if they can find a way to put that together.

His touch is a passer. The big terror of Razy in the Summer League. But it's pretty cool to see him go back. You love those storybook endings for superstars. And it did not look like that was what was going to get to happen for Damian Lillard. He was gonna sign somewhere that would have been another destination, rehab for a year, maybe end up as, you know, a guy off the bench for some other franchise and who knows, maybe that's what he ends up doing in Portland. But to have an opportunity to kind of repair whatever hurt was there and go back to a fan base

that just loves him, it's special. I'm certainly really happy for him. I think Hog's gotta have a unique perspective here because while I'm sure, and we know Damien from his playing days, absolute killer, right? I don't think he's signing up with Portland to be like, okay, we'll be a fringe play-in team

as I wind down my career and I'll be just uber popular and I'll be ceremonial and I'll feel a lot like D Wade back in Miami and people forget D Wade was pretty good that last hurrah. They were pesky. They would've gotten into a play-in if a play-in was around back then and he probably would've had one last go.

But it seems like a guy that is totally comfortable with his legacy. He made it to one Western Conference Finals, he tried to do the ring chasin' thing with Milwaukee, well initially with Miami, didn't get, the thing that does irk me is, you're like the first superstar that didn't get his way, that tried this, like you made it very clear

you wanted to go to Miami, and they sent your ass to Milwaukee. You hated it, and now you're coming back to Portland after they treated you that way? That's the only thing I kinda like, and that's a Heat fandom perspective on this. I'm like, what did they do to you that made you think that going back

was the brightest of ideas, but he has obvious ties to this place, and like I said, it seems like a guy that is very comfortable with his legacy. I don't think an NBA championship is in the cards for Portland over this contract's full term. He is going there to ride out the end of his career, make the most of it.

Certainly not punting on being competitive, that's not how he's built, but it doesn't seem like it's the most important thing. He tried ring chasing, he wasn't happy. He wants to go back to his happy place, and you're a guy that went to training camp with the greatest dynasty of the modern era in the New England Patriots.

I am a legend in that way. Played with some of the goats. You had Gronkowski, heard of him? You were? Tom Brady, are any of these names familiar to you guys? I'm getting I'm getting worked up over here No, I think for him it was more of a it's a comfort thing man when you go it sucks going to new teams Like even for NFL players. I know it's like business like especially when you're in a place that became home You know, you know the front office people, you know the social media people, you know, you know the front office people,

you know the social media people, you know the people that work at the stadiums, you bought your first house here, you kind of became an adult in this place, you know the streets, you know the stores that you like, you know the coffee shops and the places you like to eat, and then you're going to a new team and you gotta relearn all of that.

And there were places like that in Cleveland. And there were places like that in Cleveland. There were good places. Yeah, there were great places, and I love Cleveland. That was like Milan of the Midwest I loved and that's why I'm looked at as an Ohio guy because I bounced around there so much in so many places I did rock it and honestly a free agency. I was like I want to go to Cleveland because I don't want to leave Ohio I like it here. I've been here. I'm good here. And then after Cleveland it was like, okay There's a rebuild and we're gonna suck

We already sucked. We're gonna suck even more. He won one game and it got worse Wait, we're gonna we're gonna get worse like oh you ain't seen nothing yet All right, so you made the decision you were a really productive player. You made a lot of money in the league I have my money and I'm like, okay. I'm on the other side of 30 I'm not going to continue to increase my money. And that's kind of where Dame Lillard is. It's like, once you are no longer getting more money, now you're looking for, OK, let me get to a comfortable place where I can do the best I can

in places where I feel comfortable, because I don't feel like learning a new place and system and people. And so I went to New England, but I didn't want to go to New England at first. Like New England, I would have stayed in New England, which I retired early. I would have stayed if the contract wasn't like a minimum deal. It was like, oh, this ain't worth it.

I made X amount and now I'm here and I don't like it. So there wasn't a money incentive for me to stick around. I would have went to Cincinnati, and I told my agent, I was like, yo, call Cincinnati. Cincinnati was so pissed because the way I left there for Cleveland and didn't tell anybody in restricted free agency, they had no idea

like what was going on behind the scenes where I'm like, yeah, I'm outta here and I'm gonna figure this out, and I did it. And that's like their rival. And they were so pissed about it, they were like, yeah, nah, it ain't happening like piss off like you they felt betrayed by what I did so it wasn't a thing but really I told my agent I was like if I can't go play at Cincinnati I need to go somewhere where I could at least try to get a ring or or I'm gonna

call it up like it's it's one of those places Chicago offered me they were gonna pay me triple what New England was gonna pay me. They're like, just come visit. I was like, no, I don't wanna go play in Chicago. No disrespect to Chicago, but like I told you, I didn't feel like going to a new environment where there was no upside. Like learning new people, all this,

and we're still not gonna be good. It's gonna be another lateral move. You know, so. You tripled the money though, man. I mean, tripled the money New England was giving me tough enough which was minimum you could tough it out for a year Nah, man, I couldn't I had to get started on this budding media career Podcasts are waiting Chicago's a big city. You could have done a podcast of the house. It's too cold man. It's too cold I'm Cincinnati and Cleveland aren't not as Chicago

Not as not as Chicago really Not as Chicago. Really? I mean, they're both on it. Cleveland and Chicago are both on it. Cincinnati's not as cold as Cleveland or Chicago. But again, to be cold and lose games, I don't think you understand what that is. It's not just, oh, it's cold. No, to be cold and get your ass kicked.

Probably not great. It is not. You talk about a terrible feeling. Didn't like it. Did the Patriots win the Super Bowl that year? No, right? No, they went and they lost to the Eagles. Right, so it's interesting.

You and Dominique get compared to a lot because the story arc is very similar in terms of involved with the Union. You both kind of retired before an opportunity to make it to the Super Bowl. In Dominique's case, the Ravens actually won the Super Bowl the year after you retired. So as the Patriots are making the run,

you obviously make the retirement decision knowing there's probably a good chance this is a championship team. Like you're there, it's Tom Brady, it's Gronk. You know they're pretty tough. That's why you go in the first place. They have proof of concept over there. They know what they're doing. They've been to a couple of them.

They tell you that when you come. Like when you visit, they're like, we're gonna win the division, we're gonna have a bye week, and then if we win three games, that's the determining of the season. And you knew that you're like, I'm good. Yeah, man. I wasn't. No regrets. No regrets. And I know Dominique, I don't know if he talks about it, but I would imagine.

Yeah, I've talked to him about it. I'm like, they won the Super Bowl. I don't think that that's a it's a big deal for everybody because you want it to be the case as it pertains to your career. You want to be a champion. But that's just not everybody's goal. You don't like, you're not going to lose sleep over winning the Super Bowl just because

the percentage of people that do it is so few and it's a lot of luck involved. And you could be really good, but if you don't have the right quarterback to win the Super Bowl, it's not going to happen. I just, I wanted to play one game in the NFL. That was my lifelong dream. I could not reset my brain to be like I gotta win a Super Bowl I got that wasn't I'm like I'm gonna be a really good player I want to do my best and I

want to get out of here and be able to go get a job no part of the ego that's like if I was here we would want it no not even a little bit and then Edelman got hurt like the first week of the season. You know, it was like. You could have stepped in right there. I mean, you would, maybe had one of the better years. I was good. I was so over football.

Didn't you tell us during the draft watch along that you wanted to retire after your first season your brother had to talk you out of it? Yes, he talked me out of retiring. So after my first season in the NFL, I played for my childhood team, and they gave me my first chance. And I'm like, yo, not only did season in the NFL, I played for my childhood team and they gave me my first chance. And I'm like, yo, not only that, not only did I make the team, I have stats, bro.

So that you could never look back at the NFL and say I wasn't there. I sat in my brother's office and I was like, yo, man, I think I'm going to retire. He was like, what? It's like, yeah, man, it's something like we did it. Damn it. We did it, brother. High five. And he was like, OK, I mean, you don't want it, we did it, brother. High five. And he was like, okay. I mean, you don't want to try to get a second contract? I'm like, yo, there's no way I can get a second contract. I'm like, in my mind, I'm like,

I'm still tricking these people. They're gonna catch on to me eventually. It ain't tricking if you got it. We're good, it's not tricking if you got it. I didn't know I had it though. That's the thing. But you had imposter syndrome. I did have imposter syndrome.

Your problem, no heart. That was your problem. Maybe, I hear that a lot at five seven All the time Undersized receiver that it's like you know what the intangibles not there with this guy Yeah, I would head over Ray Allen or Ray Ray Lewis at five seven. That's what everyone told me. You don't have any heart But yeah, I was good man. I was content, and I'm not kidding I genuinely was content after year one,

and I was ready to go get a job, and jump into the workforce, and figure things out afterwards, and he was like, keep playing, you might get a second contract. I'm like, all right, we'll see. There was a wide receiver that retired from the NFL yesterday that many people would have thought

had more in the tank. Mike Williams, at age 30, he's made some money in the league. Mike Williams, I don't know, people, unlike you, people have gone at Mike Williams for his passion for the game. And I guess he'll hold this up as the final nail in that coffin in terms of what his legacy will be. But what'd you make of that retirement?

I think it happens, man. I think like- And he had the full circle moment where he's with the Chargers. Yeah, it's like cars. Old face you it's like it's like cars old face old place that's the rare old face old place yeah old face old place we want to test you by the way I don't know if you were listening yesterday there's a game called new faces or faces new places we will test you we'll test you I'm gonna

lose when you retired like think of players like cars meaning there's a certain amount of mileage that you have in your heart to play. And depending on when you start and depending on your experience, your makeup, your introduction to football, your goals going into it, it's hard for that car. There's a certain car make model that is just not gonna get past 150,000 miles.

Tires are balding. Some might go to 250 and die. Some cars you know, like yo, if I get one of these cars, they last till 275 miles, period. 275,000 miles, they'll go that distance. And some will start to break down at 120 and just be like, it just doesn't have the fight anymore. Players are very much the same way.

No, all right. Maybe I'm screwing the timeline up. There was a point in Mike Williams' career where he was with San Diego and then they made the move, right? Or did he ever play in San Diego? I kind of forget how long the Chargers have been in LA. But either way, he did the thing where he went to other places and then full circle moment

gets to come back to the Chargers. That's kind of odd that camp's starting back up. This is usually when people decide, I'm liking my off season too much. I haven't taken my off season super seriously. You know, you start, when I went to New England, I'm not kidding, day two damn near, I talked to Rex Burkhead and Dion Lewis,

who are my rockermate. And I played with them in other places. Dion Lewis too. How was Dion, yeah? They were like, man, you look good, bro. I'm like, yeah, it ain't gonna matter, cause I ain't gonna be here. Really?

You knew right then. I just knew, man. I'm like, I don it ain't gonna matter because I ain't gonna be here. Really? You knew right then. I just knew, man. I don't think it's going. I'm just not feeling it, but we'll see. Not feeling it. You're finally catching passes from a quarterback. You had like 17 different quarterbacks in Cleveland. Yeah.

That's Tom Brady. There's so many people in the audience that struggle to wrap their brains around that. I know. It's Tom Brady throwing you passes. Mike's first year was when the Chargers moved to LA. So 2017 is when they moved and he was drafted. All right, so he's got the connection points

to the area too. Yeah, it was closure. That's what it is. Cause I'm like, I'm losing so much in Cleveland. I'm like, maybe that's it. Maybe if I get to a place where it's winning, I'll feel differently. You didn't even stick around to see

what that would feel like. Yeah, but when you get there, it's like, yeah, no, this sucks too. So maybe I'm just done. And didn't even stick around to see what that would feel like. Yeah, but when you get there, it's like, yeah, no, this sucks too. So maybe I'm just done. And then my knees were messed up, like in the off season, my knees like swell up like a balloon. And I'm like, man, I don't want to go get my knee drained again. And it sucks.

I guess just I'm good. And so for Mike Williams, yeah, he's probably like, well, let me go back. Let me go back to my my old stomping grounds. Maybe that'll be it. Which is something you wanted to. Which is something you want and you think maybe that'll be the spark. It's weird.

It'll give me the spark back. You wanted the full circle moment, but history remembers you mainly, I know you made the playoffs with the Bengals, but history remembers you as a Brown. But it's hard to leave the Browns via free agency and be like, hey, let's run it back. No, we actually made our decision.

You're not allowed back. No, we're good is what they were like. Did you get a one day contract from the Browns? Were you able to retire with anybody or you just went off like you just left Foxboro and you never got the I think I just left off vibes man. I was like, yeah, just let the, no I did, when I retired, I took out, I wrote an article in the Cincinnati paper

and I took an ad out in Cleveland and thanking the city and the organizations For everything they did for me and all that so it was yeah bang bang was fans Looked at me as a hometown. It was nice and long unlike Bradley Beal who decided to say goodbye to Me with the a.o. There I did that to myself