The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - Meadowlarkers 89: BS High

Episode Date: September 8, 2023

Howard Bryant and Kate Fagan and joined by Bomani Jones to take an in-depth look at the documentary "BS High" about the Bishop Sycamore football scandal. They break down the character and motivation of conman head coach Roy Johnson, the surprising darkness in the doc, the complete lack of ethics involved in this story, and much more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to Giraffe King's Network. This is the Dunluba Tarshou with the Stugat's Podcast. Welcome to Metal Arc as 89. I am Howard Bryant. Kate Fagan is here back from her travels. Amino Hassan is not here. You can find him on his other podcast, Oddball basketball with Charlotte Wilder. We have a special star of the show as usual when he's on as Kate earlier said. He is the star of the show. That would

be Bermani Jones. What up, Bo? I just want to say that I was going to be honest, Kate earlier said he is the star of the show. That would be Bamanee Jones. What up? Oh, I was going on the already miss you running through the list of 89s because that is not right now going to do. We have got our honorary captains for metal

lockers 89. This is the Kate Fagan show New York. New York and the house 89 New York. Giant Mark Bavaro. I am going to go stay. I'm going to stay in New York. Obviously wide receiver number But I'm going to go outside of that. I'm going to go to the high scoring a winger for the Buffalo Sabres Alexander McGilney Obviously you take that for me. How did you take that for me? Like I was like, well, I can't really think of it 89 I was like, what about that both guilty guy? I remember that. Yeah, I're here. You go sabers, the devils, the connox Steve Smith wide receiver number Mike did get 89. Bow go. You got 89. I'm getting out of your way.

Webs of slaughter. I think that's that's what I got there is webs of love. You got you got Steve Smith before I could get to it. I'm glad somebody did because I was nobody. Well, it was water 89. It was 84. You know glad somebody did because I want nobody to work enough. Was it father 89 or was 84? You know what? I think he became 89 when he got to the oilers. I think what Jeffries I think was 84. No, good one, good one. I am gonna go for the,

just for the shipping container, I'm gonna give you Matt Moore, Miami Dolphins, 89. Wait a little, wait a little somebody out there that the shipping container's never heard of. Exactly. Exactly. You don't make that to no more, by the way.

Like, that is an old type of thing. That's an old school, exactly. Old black man named Matt. Yeah. I think they must have, after like 1840, whatever, outlawed us like David Kee is Matt. Like, they had to dip that one in the foot. That was the exact same thing. They have consequences. That would have been a great day of consequences.

I think we're going to name him Matt. I don't think you're gonna. Now I know someone that or something that this program is familiar with because you talked about it a couple of weeks ago but this crew didn't talk about it and that would be the stunning fantastic and hilarious. And many, many more adjectives documentary running currently on HBO. BS high about Bishop Sikamor kind of high school, not really high school. Bishop Sikamor maybe high school. But Monty Jones is in it prominently.

There are so many places to go on this documentary. I'm gonna get out of the way and I'm simply gonna say The first person actually I think Bo I think I was live text again. I was watching this in sanity Yeah, I remember the day it happened. I had gone to Las Vegas. I was kicking it and I sat down at a restaurant Way to meet somebody and the game was on. And like, this is sick of more sounds like one of these schools, right? Like it seemed like something legitimate. And I just watched it and get there, asked this kid.

Like, it was stunning and what really jumped out to me, I remember was you planned this game at the Hall of Fame and nobody's in attendance. Like, that was the thing. that should have been our sign number one that the school didn't have anybody locally that would want to come and watch them play. And then they were getting stomped. And then all the stories just started slowly leaking out about what was going on. And I remember not long after it, I was talking to my buddy Ty Schillman who works with the hyper-object industries and he worked with us on a game theater on HBO. And he's one of the

EPs of this show. Yeah and he told me that they had jumped in on you know telling the story and it was so soon after it happened that my first thing was I can't like how much vetting has anybody been able to do right like was this just a land grab and somebody decided Okay, we're gonna be the ones to get it But how much of this story do you actually know how good is the story and I said to him The story is only gonna be as good as your con man is ridiculous and he told me pretty certainly Now I think we've got the right comment and holy shit did they ever have the right comment

So they went through the process on it and I didn't get it all too late because I think they had gotten most of the interviews done, but then they wanted to kind of tie, you know, some connections to bigger picture issues. And so then I came in and did that. But it was I, I, everything was there, right? Like this story's just had everything you could possibly ask for to make your jaw drop. I watched with my father the other night and twice he said he wanted to shoot Roy Johnson. I never heard my father say he wanted to shoot nobody over for my life. Yeah this story if you're not aware

Bishop Sycamore High School is a story. BSI is the story of Bishop Sycamore High School, which is supposedly an prep school academy that is designed to generate next generation or next gen football players, to get them to division one schools, to promise them a pathway to the NFL. Bishop Sycamore High School was anything but it wasn't a school. It didn't have a campus. It is one of the great cons of all time. The documentary was done by Todd Schulman over at HyperObject, also a Bentley Weiner HBO, also Michael Strahan and a couple of other executive producers. It's a fascinating story, Kate. How much of the BS high story did you know? And then by the time you were done watching it,

what were your thoughts? Yeah, well, well, Bo was telling how before. I'm on some jet lag because I just got back from Italy. So I was up at 4.30 AM watching BS high. Not I don't remember this being a huge story a few years ago. Like I know you said you sat down in Vegas and the game was on and they had a bunch of clips of whether it was not ESPN exactly but a bunch of people I recognize talking about this story

as it happened but I don't remember being a huge deal at the time. So I'm coming into this doc completely cold and what the arc of it for me was in the beginning, I was like, is there there? Like where is, where are we going here with this? But to your point about Roy Johnson, I've never, I don't know that I've ever been so unsettled

watching someone. And I've watched every range of doc, right? I mean, I've watched docs about whether it's like kidnapping men and then they have an interview with him. And this dude made me more unsettled for whatever various reasons than like docs about predators of various kinds. There was something really unsettling about just the way

he flashed a grin. And also the way he, whether it was, it sounded like real introspection. The way he seemed to have a grasp on his own issues. Obviously not fully, because he wouldn't be continuing to do what he's doing. But like, he very clearly is like, well, this is what happens when you have a fundamental insecurity in your sense of self. Like, so there was like layers of his ability to be a con man, but also understand why he was a con man, and yet none of that changing any behavior patterns

that was truly unsettling. And we can get into like the various like, as you bow, you come in and you perfectly tie up the structural issues too that BS high illuminates. But we got, I mean, we have to spend some time on this Roy Johnson because I don't know what it was for you, Bo, about how deeply unsettling, maybe your dad thought he was at least.

No, he was, oh, unsettling enough to commit a homicide. Yeah, like I found him remarkably self-aware. Yeah. That I think was the most interesting part is that he really did demonstrate a self-awareness but also just outright sociopathity. Like when he's watching this young man cry and talk about how he ruined his life and not what city hit him in the chest.

Not even a little bit. He just needed a break so that he could go somewhere and be mad. Like, there was so many points in it where you listen to him and I was spending somebody on Twitter about this. You may think that Roy came off bad in that. I don't think he did. Like, I really think that he and the end saw everything that he gave and believed that that is the groundwork for doing this again Like all of this is just the testament in his world to what he was able to pull off Which by the way in the most cynical terms is really impressive like like what he managed to do when he talks about How he got the whole season done without having any financial back in and they flew all these places?

It is really kind of amazing that he got isn't kind as far. He went through an entire football season, skipping out on a hotel bills, cats still are from Walmart, like all the like the fact that you can get that far with it is not he made up a school. Like he found a loophole. I don't think he found a loophole in the log just having to be there. No one had ever thought of a con that elaborate so much that there were no regulations to do anything about it. Like, even though it wasn't being resourceful, I'll give them all to credit for it. He's just a really, really, really bad dude.

Like, in a way that I don't think that you could avoid in the film went dark. Like, that was what I was not expecting is when it went to the places of darkness, particularly for Roy's dealing with women. And if somebody had the premiere told me, Roy showed up with his girl. Like, can you imagine being her, showing up and everybody is watching this guy on the screen and you walking around with him?

Hey, the new girlfriend. I mean, I guess you knew, you know, you never know. Yeah, with people. Well, what I found in unsettling is a very good word for it. cynical and impressive are also good words for it. I agree with you, Bob, about it going dark. And I think where the documentary really hit me

was the complete lack of ethics. I mean, here was a person who was in the con for the con. And he can say whatever he wants. And I'm actually thinking Kate, his introspection was part of the con. Sure. Because one of the things that you have to do to be a con, man, is be sympathetic. There has to be something, there's a lot of done, king in there about how I am the, you know, I'm the, you know, I'm the champion of the unprotected, the voiceless. I'm giving them, you know, when he gets upset at the end of the doc saying, I gave them what they wanted.

I gave them a pathway to go to school. Like, he seemed to believe that he truly did have a calling. This is what I was made to do. And there was absolutely no, I think, well, I think the thing that makes a con man what they need to be is, I mean, one, it's why it's called a con man, confidence, right? The ability that you're going to succeed in whatever underhanded endeavor you go on. But what hit me about Roy Johnson even more so was the utter lack of good faith in anything. Like the reason why you can skip out on 90 days of credit is because of the expectation

that you're going to pay within those 90 days. He went in there going, I'll see you later on day 91. He had no intention of paying, right? I mean, that normally when you blow your credit, at some point during that period, you like, my intentions are good. And now things have gotten away. And now I have to survive. His idea was I just bought myself 90 days to smirk the next con. Look man, there's different cultural attitudes about these things. I don't want to call no country out by name because I don't want nobody to get offended, but I got one that jumps out to me. And if I said it amongst themselves, they would acknowledge this, but there's some places

where if you get got it is your responsibility to not get got. That's on you. You know, yeah, you know what that guy costs, Lippin, you should have been paying more attention. That is the Roy Johnson mantra for all of this stuff is like you give you 30 60 or 90 30 never dawned on

him. That's forever. 30 would never dawn on him. He's always going for the 90. That's that's that's him. That I think that's a great way to put it. He's trying to get over in every scenario situation. And if the first time you meet somebody like that, it is wild, right? Like if you're not wired like that, the first time you meet somebody that's like, oh, they're just trying to get over on what ever situation.

Who would do that? Yeah. Yeah. Who would do that? I don't know if you remember this. This is about 10 to 12 years ago, somewhere in there when Lane Kiffin was coaching at USC. And he had gotten a bright idea to send the holder out in a different, like basically he sent the holder out for extra points. It was the backup quarterback, but he had him put on the punters jersey.

So that on film, people wouldn't realize that it was the backup quarterback. So they would have a greater likelihood of being able to pull off a fake because the back of quarterback was the holder and not the punter. Who does that? Right? Like who is so dastardly that they consider these things and that was seen to be part of it with everybody with Roy Johnson at every turn they're just like wow who would do such a thing but to be fair to him. The idea of having a team

and not having a school, the part that makes his kind of problematic is not that. It's the fact that no school existed at all. Like Finley Prep in Nevada, for example, is a real big basketball school. Finley Prep doesn't have a school. They just have a basketball team, but they got a relationship with the school.

There are a lot of these schools that are at schools, but they at least pretend to know a school. Roy was like, hey, we'll get to that part later. One thing I was thinking about throughout it a lot of these schools that art schools, but they at least pretend to know a school. Roy was like, yeah, we'll get to that part later. One thing I was thinking about throughout it a lot too was that I had before watching BSI and not being somebody ever at ESPN who was like covering high school football or doing prep sports at all.

I kinda didn't know that sports was a place where the same thing that happens in like writing, acting, and other creative endeavors where people set up companies to pray on people who want to live out their creative dreams, but can't go through the normal model for various reasons. Those things exist everywhere you look in writing, right? Like, sham publishing houses that just want to take your money and you pay to put out a book.

Watching PS House, like, damn, this is like the same model as like a sham publishing house that prays on a writer's dream to get published. But I didn't know what happened in sports like this. It was the exact same model, essentially, that Roy Johnson created, and then taking as much money from these kids as he could possibly get,

or taking as much value from everything around that he possibly good, because he knows people have these dreams that they are willing to go lengths that you wouldn't for anything else to try to pursue. I just didn't know what happened in sports like this. When you put it in those terms, I don't think I realized that either.

Like I don't think I thought about it in the way that you had just put it there, but you're like, especially when you start talking about Roy putting getting their social security numbers and putting their names on all kinds of loan paperwork and stuff like that. Wasting their time was one thing, but you're right, they also extracted a lot of money

out of these kids in order to make this happen. And you're ready. What makes it so wild to me is, however, this is some you and I have talked about. The math or making it as a pro has actually gotten worse than ever because there are more people that are really invested in trying to do this. And so this idea that I'm going to make my dream comes you no matter what, you don't ever want to be the one to tell a kid they can't do something. But damn, like the fact that the fact that even if what he was doing was legitimate that people were willing

to try it says a lot about the levels of desperation. Well, exactly. And I think that the point there were two things about this that really hit me and the doc. One was when he looks in the camera, the winks and the smile and the whole thing was cartoonish. To the point where it was like, he's doing this on purpose, which also told me that the documentary itself was part of the con. And he says it on the doc, you know, whatever you think of me, I got on ESPN.

I'm going to be on HBO. I'm going to be on Netflix. So he's using the camera against itself. In a lot of ways, you think you're exposing me? I'm exposing you. And that was pretty dastardly, but the other piece entire world view was, is it illegal? It's not illegal. I just live in the gray. What do they call me?

Lupo Leroy, right? I mean, this is, this is the guy you cannot trust. In other words, there's no laws against it. And the first thing, of course, no one me that came to mind was staridara, right? The first thing that comes down, you know, if you ain't cheating, you know, all the different ways that people try to manipulate. And in his case, he was doing it to teenagers. And also order grownups.

Like that was the other thing. He's like, look at them. They're grown men. That was the other piece of it when you're saying, if you're not, if you're getting condits on you, he's like, these aren't ninth graders. These are grownups, you know, what's the line and, you know, what's the line in a, in Braveheart, you know, you let yourself be deceived, right? I mean, you knew you were getting something out of this. And the, the way that he simply saw, I live in the gray.

Right? I mean, this is a, this is a worldview. The part that doesn't quite add up, and maybe it's just like, it would not up because you can't make sense of somebody like Roy Johnson is like, of all the cons to try to put together. This one seems like it has the heaviest lift it could possibly have. Right?

Like, you can't- It is the payload big enough. Is the payout gonna be big enough? Like, what? Even if you're telling me, oh, it gets to be one of those, like, you know, AAU coaches who everybody looks at, knows has power, or whatever the football version of that is, like, is that worth this? Like going around to best Western scamming them, trying to get rotisserie chickens to feed 50 of all the cons.

And that's showing up. And then getting them into this count. It's just like, this is like the, just the heaviest con I've ever seen in my life. Well, I'll say this about some of that, because I agree with you. It seems like a heavy con, but like, I don't know what life everybody on here is live.

But I remember the first time that I was late on paying a bill and realized they don't turn your lights off the day after you don't pay a bill, right? It was liberating to the point of being problematic. It completely changed my view. That's it. Shut off, shut off, notice. They did. I'm going to get the lights off.

Yeah, yeah. Now, you know, look, I tested them to the limits. I learned exactly how yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just like, oh, somebody sue me again. Huh, eight, that's something. Like I'm definitely in the OJ made America. We're free of government. Talks about winning that lawsuit. He's like, when you win a lawsuit, you don't get $30 million. You get a piece of paper that says it, they owe you $30 million. And that's how Roy looks at all of this stuff, right? All you got is a piece of paper. No, 100%. And good luck trying to get that money from me. Never going to get it from me, right? I'm never going to pay you.

And all of that struck me. It's like the statistics that say that generally speaking, and I think this is statistically proven that incarceration is not a deterrent for committing crime. With a certain number of people, percentage of people, it is 100% a deterrent for me, right? And sued is a 100% deterrent from doing these things. For him, they weren't. Go ahead, come and get me. What are you going to do about it?

But here's the question I have for both of you. What do you believe was the payoff? When you watch this documentary and you're going through this man's behavior and the way he's manipulating people and the danger he's putting himself and others in. What's the end game for him? Oh, the end game for him is that we call him coach. I think it's not the victory of the getting over it's the validation of being called coach. Yeah, I think I mean, I think that he I think he gets short-term joy out of getting over. I mean, let's be honest. Mr. Fist Fund. He's like, you're getting a little pissed off.

I enjoy a little pissed off. I used to love sneaking into stuff and things like that, right? But he's a misdemeanors, right? Like, he's the biggest day in the world. But I think he and he and man went out of place. And I think he's a man that needs to feel, made to feel important in certain ways.

And I really think about watching this growth of youth sports to me has a lot less to do with trying to make all these kids pros than all these grown-ups who want to be the coach. Right? Like if you in a little small town or whatever, the doctor in the small town walks in and it's like, oh, there goes Doc Johnson, the coach walks in and they're like, they're going to coach. Coach means something completely different. And I think for a man that don't feel like he's necessarily the most important person in the world, I really think what he wanted to be was the guy on top of this. That leader immense up like the different points in the film where you tell he's doing

the cosplay like we talked about running over the geese and talking about I love the smell of blood in the morning and all of that. That's all stuff I've seen in the movies. Coach type stuff. And I think that's what he wants to be. That's right. And what you said earlier, there are two things in there. And one of the things, and by the way, Bermani is great in this documentary

because so many of these docs don't have narration. But all the docs, now that's all the rage now to not have the over-loid leaf-shriver voice. So you need somebody in these docs to sort of be the connective tissue. And Bermani does a phenomenal job of that in the stock. The the one thing that you said in there too, which was, and I was thinking the whole thing while I was watching this, one, the amount of influence of the popular culture on this dude.

He's mentioned in the Avengers, he's referring to himself as Thanos. He's quoting apocalypse now. You know, I love this moment. I mean, it's the long, though, all day shirt was one of them X-Men and whatever's right. Right. I wonder what now. Right. But the other piece that you made that I thought was the most important piece of this documentary to me. It was the best point in the doc was the reason why you could do this was who you were doing it to. And the fact of the matter is, when I was watching this doc,

the first thing I said is there's a reason why there are no white kids in this doc. You know, they know white parent in America who couldn't see through that con. I just say that black people couldn't, but I'm talking about the economic desperation here. The class element of this was so obvious that this meant, and it reminded me a lot, Kate, when we were talking about the Bernie Madoff doc, where they were talking about how a lot of the Jewish clients got duped because they wanted to believe that one of their own made it. And one of the things that he sold was, I am going to be the black person who doesn't leave black people behind when actually

You're the one praying on your own people. You're that dude And I thought bow that point of saying essentially that the reason why this went as far as it did Wasn't because he was so much of a genius, but because he was doing it to people that nobody cared about. One other point, Bo, that you made in the doc was in traditional Belmonte Jones fashion, right? You're just like, the whole point of this was that so people would see the product, right? Like, that is just, to me it was just such a clear point to make as most cons.

It's like, you don't ever wanna be seen. The whole point is that no one ever knows you, you wrote all those checks. And it's like, at the end of the day, he wanted to go on national TV and reveal this to people. And like, this is mine and I built this. And like that, just when you said that on the dock, I was like, yeah, that really hammers home,

just the fundamental intellectual Flaws in all this. Yeah, but in this era where everybody wants to be some kind of famous, right? Like everybody's Instagram page is kind of their own magazine. They got their own base. They got their own readership Whatever it is and I'm like you you don't have a trainer like you're playing a football game without a trainer And not once did you think Eee I think maybe we shouldn't be don't know no, no, we was gonna get out here and do this. And those clips are so funny. It was like Todd Lugan-Bill, whoever those guys aren't being, like we don't have a number 15 on the roster that they gave us.

They told us that it was a bunch of D1 recruits out here. And of course they believe it. Who would lie about such a thing? Like when this first happened, a lot of the backlash came against ESPN. And it was just like, how did you not fit this out? Because we don't have a Vita high school department. This has never been a thing that we've ever needed before.

Like why, why, why, why, we work with people who do this. We assume that they have done their day. Or time somebody gets caught up. I was like, why ain't you Google them a background check? Because that ain't my job. Somebody else is supposed to be doing that. you trusted the day you would do it. And they just put this whole thing on TV and it took five minutes before people were like, I was like, I caught.

But that was the, that was Sean Connery in the Untouchables. You know, when Kevin Costner says, I just told you I was a federal agent and he says, who would say that, who was not? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But why do you say you were a high school if you're not a high school? was a federal agent and he says, who would say that? Who was not? Cool. Why do you say you were a high school if you're not a high school? Well, one of the things I was thinking about too, you'll, you remember the guy in it, the matchmaker, right? And he, he had the tag that his actual apparently, he was the founder of prep gridiron logistics. Like whenever I'm watching something or reading something and I'm like,

I in a career path is revealed to me that I had no idea existed. Like for example, about 15 years ago, my mom took a job at a software company and the software they built was to plan routes for school buses. And I just was like, oh, I just thought there was a school bus driver.

They picked up Jimmy, then they picked up, like I just didn't know. I was like, oh, they actually have technology. For me, like in this doc too, because we haven't yet gotten to the part just about like what this reveals about how broken everything is, which maybe we just leave it at that, it's broken.

But the fact that we have this guy, the matchmaker, and that there's an entire cottage industry, I assume in every field of collegiate sports and beyond where apparently this guy makes his entire living, just calling high schools and getting them to play each other is like an insight into high school. Which used to be the AD's job, right? Right, like I just don't get that.

Yeah. But you did it as the AD when you were playing people AD's job, right? Right, like I just don't get that. Yeah, but you did it as the AD when you were playing people within driving distance, right? Like what's so crazy to me is how does it play in flying across country? You don't, to play like a high school versus another high school. To get on a plane for that is just kind of crazy. Unless it's like there's a level of like powerhouse,

you know, the powerhouses that should be playing against each other like, okay, I get that. But what's wild about it to me is I have a buddy you uh works in High school athletics at a small private school And he told me that he got a call from one of those big power houses and they have the hardest time scheduling games Because you can't play you can't play them every week right like like in schools What does this serve you're a little school in Virginia to play against IMG Academy.

But there aren't 20-something people who want to play a game against IMG Academy, especially with football, where you go to legitimate, get your players hurt by being out here doing this. They have to go through all this just to find somebody willing to sacrifice their kids to play a game against IMG Academy. Like what I also thought was fascinating too,

it's a subtle thing that talks about how broken this is. IMG Stadium is very small. Like this is a really big deal high school, but it has no community time. So like in Texas, the school does good. That may have a 25,000 to you stadium or whatever. This is a cultural thing that they got going there. They just got to school for the sake of having it,

because this is what you're man's name is tennis, ball of terries. It's like voluntary. I am doing it. It's this thing. He like Oh, I'm late great. Yeah, I want to train these kids, but I guess they have to go to school. It's all people give them a school to that's right. Very Tennessee and and the other part of that too that I thought was sort of fascinating and when you're talking earlier about the, um, Is it legal? Is it not legal? And I, it's very clear that a lot of what they did was illegal. And I don't think when they talked about living in the gray, I didn't think that was particularly accurate. What the problem was was enforcement. Yes. Because they, you know, the documentary highlighted all the different places in the bylaws where you cannot do this. But nobody's mind in the store.

And the first thing that hit me, Kate, when I was, you know, with that section of the doc was on, was when we were doing the early days of metal larkas when we were talking about empire. This is what happens when you privatize everything. Nobody's watching. Yeah. Well, to that point, both you, Howard you Howard and and bow you talking about No one's going to an IMG Academy game at least not in a community way

It's not a community event also tied into that is like there's no local media Right, there's no like there's not the high school beat reporter There isn't like the local whatever. Yeah, I mean there is no high school. What ever part of Ohio Columbus that they were in I mean, there is no high school. Well, whatever part of Ohio Columbus that they were in, I guess the equivalent was that kid who worked for the Ohio State Board, the one who loved. Yeah, the little investigator. I forgot his name.

Like, isn't he basically the high school beat reporter 15 years ago? But there is no, like, they're just like, it's all of that combination of things, like the privatization of youth sports, the local media, just dying in these areas and like then you have a vacuum into which where Johnson can walk in and do this for long enough to actually schedule a game on ESPN. That was exactly what my father said watching it.

He was like, so where's the newspaper? And I was like stripped to the bones, but because that was there was a time when some high school guy, some reporter is like, I'm going to go check out every single high school and he would have shown up to one of their practices. And then like, and the investigator dude said he kept calling people, like look, there's something that you've got to look into

and nobody actually went about it and by the way, that could have got what I know little guys that wanted to appeal to the surprises that what it got them to wherever their dreams were, right? But the lack of oversight is so crucial on top of the cynicism that exists in the Roy Johnson Willett, is it illegal, question mark sort of thing? And then would you say, yes, it is illegal. I mean, okay, but they made it says rules on a piece of paper.

Like, what's really, let's be real here. Right. And that piece of it, when the, I think the red headed investigate it was really, it was really, it was different. Yeah, right. And now, you know, that piece of it, when they've, the, I think the red headed investigate, it was like, you know, I'm trying to tell you something's not right here, it reminds me very much of, of the Dechet ruling in 1994, which spurred something that we all watch on television and not even paying attention to now, which is these statements are not

verified by the FDA. Every drug commercial and supplement thing out there now. Nobody's watching. They put a little line on the crawl telling you to take this and it'll make you feel better. These statements are not fact-checked by the FDA. Why the f*** not? checked by the FDA. Why the f**k not? That feels like something like, like, you gotta open a new department, it has somebody go through this stuff, right? You think, isn't that your job? You're just telling me to take this.

No, see, that's the thing. It's the FDA's job, but it's nobody's job at the FDA. Right. Like, that's where the subtlety guns for you live in the FDA. That's where the subtlety comes from. You live in the gray. Yeah, no, this is just like to me, the idea, and I think I sit this in the dock and I've run, I didn't really flush this out, but the idea that you can make this much money

working with kids is a problem. And the reason that you can make this much money working with kids is because the talent winds up fetching this money on the other side. And so while I feel that way, on one level, I like having empathy for the AAU coach and the hood and everybody they're supposed to do it for free. So to some white man, you get it to come to some

division on school and then he gets all the money. But everybody, at every level, who's the guy that's supposed to be in a put a love? But people really, and this is also a lot of rich people are involved in this, they calm themselves in this, this belief that you are going to like skill level your kid into the pros when the only thing that really matters, at least to the college level, is physical attributes. They can find you on the side of the road somewhere, if you got the physical attributes,

all this travel team shit ain't none of that go matter, if you got the physical attributes, all this travel team shit, ain't none of that go matter, is do you have the physical attributes, but people are trying so hard on this that they've generated such an economy around, like, is there any youth sports left where people just f**king around? You know what I'm saying? I just have a good tie.

Does that still exist anywhere? Nope, and you can, and you can also, to that point, though, as we swing around here, that reminds me, you can thank Earl Woods for that. I created my son, you know, the famous Mike Douglas, when the time he was two years or three years old, I put him, and I made Tiger Woods what he was,

and every dad in the world was like, that's me next, right? I'm going to do this. In tennis, you see it all the time at the youth level, what do they always say in tennis? You pay for your level. You're gonna go out there, you wanna pay $40,000 a year for tennis lessons?

Fine. That ain't gonna make you civilian Williams. You know what I was thinking in this while I was watching it? It's not the perfect comparison, but at the end of the doc, when Roy Johnson is essentially saying to the camera that I'm on HBO now,

I got brand recognition now. I'm gonna, now people like our legitimately gonna, we may build the version of Bishop Sikamor that it owe it, that I quote unquote intended it to be we may build the version of Bishop Sycamore that I quote unquote intended it to be because now we can point to the HBO doc somehow, right? Twist it, like there's like a strange comparison to Rexham for me, right?

Like it's not perfect, but I'm like, okay, what is the experiment going on at Rexham? It's like can just simply brand recognition and shining a light on something gets you somewhere you never could have gotten. And there's some strange aspect to this Bishop Sycamore story where I could see in a couple of years

like he actually is able to like somehow spin this thing around where it's like, oh, Bishop Sycamore. I have to think. I have to look at that thing. Okay, people now look at Lonzo, I'm sorry, Lonzo, Levabalik. He was on to something and people look at, you know, when you go back to,

at the end, and especially the way the documentary leaves it open ended, like, I'm gonna do this again, which is exactly how the spoiler alert, that's how the documentary is like, Hey, I'm in the game now. This got me in the game. Yeah. And now that I'm in, how different is that then

Jay Zee? How different is that then Biggie? How different is that although they all had ability but how different is that then the Kennedys? We start here disreputeably in end here reputably. It's like when you and I were talking about this on the phone it's like the line in Godfather too and And in five years, the curly own family will be completely legitimate. That was seven years ago. Yep. Let's see, Lavar Ball was onto something because the thing that never really got reported into Lavar Ball story was Lavar was running an AAU team outside of the shoe company game. Like his whole push was actually kind of in line. It was in opposition to a lot

of the things that we find to be problematic in the game. Like he knew the game was full of Roy Johnson's and therefore he became the guy and when nobody has ever impune was Lavar's integrity as it relates to those matters. Like he seems to have some significant misogyny matters, issues and he also seem to have some issues as a businessman. But like in terms of intention and all of that stuff, he was like, do you see all these clowns out here? No, I'm going to take the team of neighborhood kids, which nobody really does anymore. And he decided he was going to come out here and he was going to run that. But yeah, people are going to, I think a lot of people will try to find somewhere, everybody's

trying to find their way into this game, right? Because it has no certification process. There's no reason to say, especially at the youth level, I can't do this because. And then you have all these entities that decide they need a football team, whether it be all these colleges, these new schools that pop up just for the purpose. You know what that is? A new job for somebody who says that they somebody's football coach and a new opportunity for those people to then think that they go live their dreams and then they live it out through these kids and everything that comes with it

and not one person ever asking the question of, is anybody happy? And I understand that when you're a person with money trying to have this conversation with people who don't is a very difficult one. But every bit of money you get gets you around a new class, a unhappy people. They really ain't living as good as you think.

They just got nice or stuff. And all of this just seems to be Roy's trying to fight through his unhappiness. These kids all miserable and broken by this old process. We're all lost by this. Where's the happy person? There's the happy person in all of this. And the closest thing to it is the book maker, the promoter, that books games is super nice.

Yeah. Okay, if I can final thoughts on BS high. I'm glad I watched it. It's it. I'm always thankful to metal markers. I've probably watched about 10 docs. I wouldn't have watched Howard. So as we're only one away from the end of metal markers. So that's mostly a reflection of all of the cool stuff we've talked about and watched on this program. Yeah, no doubt. Both, final thoughts.

All right, I don't think I've told this story publicly. I don't think I'm talking out of school here, but I talked to somebody at the premiere and told me that because I, and the premiere was there a trial back of, I forget as I wanted to move the theaters. And once I found out your room is going to be there, I went with my brother and my mad Trayvon. And I was like, not the director Trayvon, a different Trayvon, but this Trayvon went to

high school with the director Trayvon. It's a long story. But anyway, I was like, yes. And I was like, Amen. We get night here as soon as the closing credits start because I don't want to run into Roy. They got to throw in any parts of what this might be. And so as I'm getting out, I see somebody and I'm like,

yeah, I'm getting out of here before I run into Roy. He was like, yeah, so Roy told us that he couldn't believe that he was so important that they got B Almighty Jones, all camera to talk about him, but if he saw me, he was gonna give me a meme, because he couldn't have me thinking that he was, you know, humbling himself in such a way. And I feel like that tells you everything you need to know

about the guys get down. That story's not about me, that story's about Roy. Yeah, and so and so much of this, so much of this is about Roy. All of it and a lot of ways was about Roy. The kid's pretty much all lost. I was fascinated if you want to watch this fascinated by the the

grambling little Easter egg at the end there and the huge accident Easter egg at the end there. Take a look. And I also thought too that at the end of it all and there were a couple of kids who ended up getting their D1 dream that Roy Johnson after all of this said, I did exactly what I had intended to do. And so it's sort of like, I have not spoken to a person yet who was watched this documentary and felt that they had ever met somebody less ethical than this man. And he walked out of it feeling victorious. Mission accomplished. And indeed, and mission accomplished here, but my Jones, thank you so much for joining us. We always enjoyed having you on especially on metal lockers, Kate Fagan.

We got one or two or more of these or maybe one more. Number 90. Number 90. Well, I don't even know what we're going to call that one. Who's the most famous 90? And even I don't know. That's an often, now we're back to a defensive line and offensive line. And I can go with the quick 90 out of my mind is the Washington Capitol Center.

Joey, do you know? Okay. Let's go with him. It is so wild to me, remember that you're from one of them places that we are watching. That hockey, you know all these dudes. I'd be like, man, like I was really filled up by myself about that mongilny. You know, Julia's pepper is our, it should be the top of the number 90 list I feel like. Who's that? All right. Julius purpose. Do this pepper is 90, yeah?

Yeah, although was he 90 with the Packers or the Panthers? He's I think 90 with everybody. With 90 with everybody. There it is. Can't go wrong with that. We will see you next week or whenever you see us again. Thank you for joining us. Thank you.