The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - PTFO - One Yard at a Time: A Mystery

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

Under-recruited running back from a collapsed American city — with a single mom and a dream — wins the Super Bowl. Sounds familiar, right? But NFL coach Deland McCullough’s story, as told through his new book with Sarah Spain, has a twist all its own. (Thanks to a little help from Sir Mix-a-Lot.) P.S. One correction, at the 17:50 mark: Deland McCullough’s senior year of college was 1995, not 2005. • Read "Runs in the Family": https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Runs-in-the-Family/Sarah-Spain/9781668036280 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. He opens the door. He just said, my son. And it was like, oh, the tears start rolling again. Because I've never been referred to as somebody's son. Right after this ad. You're listening to Draft Kings Network. Cravable hot honey sauce? It's a sweet heat repeat you don't wanna miss. Get your hot honey McCrispy today.

Available for a limited time, only at McDonald's. ["Sweet Heat Repeat"] You know, one of the things that I have to do at the top is say first, thank you for doing this. Sarah Spain, hello. Yeah. And the other thing is to do a thing that is cruel, which is to say, there is a twist in this story,

which we're not gonna give away because we're trying to be good at telling stories, but holy f*** it. Yeah, that was my response when I first heard the story, was pretty much holy f*** it. And now that story is a book, which is why you are here with us today. It is coming out.

It is called Runs in the Family. What's the metaphor that you choose to use to describe the process of birthing this? Actually, I've been joking. I am throwing myself a book baby shower wherein I buy myself a push present because honestly, and though the labor maybe wasn't as painful as a human baby,

but at the beginning I was like, to quote you earlier, holy **** it, why did I choose to do this? Yeah, I should say, I mean, to quote Tony Kornheiser about his own hands, these fingers don't really type anymore. Well, I am worried about you after you did that interview where you said some of your articles you actually changed the words in sentences so that the ends of them would line up in a paragraph so it looked nice. I was like, oh, he should never write a book. Yeah, that whole thing about how you are not burdened by the neurosis of writing.

I for those not familiar was making my paragraphs into like perfect symmetrical rectangles before I gave myself permission to write the next paragraph. Have you seen someone for that? You, it turns out. I'm seeing you for that and you have not helped. My bad. Could you give just like the logline of this movie before the thing that we're dancing around? Yeah. So the protagonist and co-author, his name's Deilin McCullough,

he is currently the Raiders running backs coach. Coach Carroll and all of the upper management has done a great job of, first of all putting together a great staff I believe, but really, really, really good staff. And then getting, you know, we got, obviously OTA is going on right now, and it's been very encouraging, let me say it like that. Been very encouraging. He was most recently with Notre Dame,

helping them to the national championship. Previous to that, famously with the Kansas City Chiefs, helped them to a Super Bowl. Dylan, how special is it to be a part of this? I mean, it's unbelievable. You know, I know I made a statement a couple days ago just about the dream that you have as a youth football player in high school and college

about getting to this level. I didn't know Dylan before the Super Bowl with the Chiefs in which it was like, oh, that's the guy who has been coaching, you know, Damian Williams, where they are just like scampering all over the field. James Williams makes a cut and will roll into the end zone for the touchdown.

No flags. I wasn't familiar with him either, but a friend of mine in Chicago here played college football with him, which is how the story came to me. Sort of out of the blue and out of nowhere, he sat me down when we were grabbing drinks and was like, oh, I got to tell you this crazy story. And within probably less than three minutes of the story, chills almost in tears. And I was like, Oh, we got to do something with this. So I just need you to know that what we're going to do with this today might seem like

a story about a running backs coach at this point. A coach whose job, if you were not familiar, is basically devoted to teaching a running back how to shrug off and fight off all of the people who are desperately trying to stop them from moving forward as much as one single yard. But this story is about more than that. This story is also about a running back. A running back whose identity was a mystery. Because thanks to the laws in our country, as we will discuss, adoption as a concept way too often entails mystery. But what we know is that long before Dylan McCullough beat the Niners in the Super Bowl and became a successful NFL coach and also recently

agreed to talk to Pablo Torre, finds out, for this episode, as you will hear throughout, he was born and put up for adoption in December 1972. And we also know that Dillon's adoptive parents lived in a place that would be economically decimated by the collapse of the steel industry by September 1977, when Dillon was just four years old. And that place was Youngstown, Ohio. It's hard to believe this is happening after working here for so many years. It's hard to believe that we're put out on the street and don't know what we're

going to do. 5,000 steelworkers, many of them skilled veterans of 20 to 30 years, lost their jobs. In Youngstown and nearby Campbell, they have a name for the day disaster struck. They call it Black Monday. That is where Dylan McCullough comes from. He's adopted by a young couple who's very much in love that already have a son, welcomed to the family and the dad is this guy named A.C. McCullough, who's a popular local radio DJ in Youngstown.

What kind of local DJ are we talking about? What's kind of the affect here for his adopted father? The guy who would announce on the radio if there was a snow day, the guy who would introduce you to the latest Top 40 hit. And you'd get to hear the song for the first time. This is the 70s and 80s that he starts out. So the radio, in particular local radio, was such a huge part of people's everyday life. Yes. So we're ACN Kelly and we have some special guests here this morning. So we want to say hi to Celeste from the shops at Boardman Park. So after some of the local concerts in Youngstown, folks would come over to their house for after

parties to get a late night home cooked meal and keep the party going. So Dylan was around Tiny Tim. ["Tiny Tim's House"] Very old fashioned now for young people. That there would always be stacks of tickets to a variety of local bands or concerts that were happening in their house. But after about two years, the couple doesn't make it.

He leaves and for Dylan, there's a particular pain in the fact that he hears his father's voice every day on the radio, but his father wants nothing to do with him in life. And then his mother brings in another husband, some other boyfriends really hoping to provide a father figure, but her choices never really match her intentions. And they are abusive. One of them has a crack problem. Although there were men, there was a couple guys there,

they weren't, they didn't fit the bill as the true father figure. Like, wow, I want to do what this guy do and follow what his teachings and what his actions are. I didn't want to do that. You need to understand that there were so many people struggling in Youngstown, trying to pay for heat and electricity, trying to put food on the table, trying to stay out of jail. People around him were struggling with so many big things.

And so, Dieland, how long has he known that he is adopted? At about seven years old, he's sitting on the floor at a friend's house. His mom is talking with friends and he's playing with a toy and he overhears his mom say, Pittsburgh. That's where we went to get Dylan when we adopted him. And he says, I'm adopted. And she says, yep. And then goes back to her conversation. And they try to talk about it again in the car very briefly and sort of shuts it down. And it becomes pretty clear to him that it's not really something to talk about.

And for him, there was not really the privilege of let me do some navel gazing about my identity and where I come from, right? It's like, how do I get by today and tomorrow and the next day and how does my family get by? So he really didn't talk about it with his mom again for 30 years. So to be very clear in terms of the kind of family that Dylan finds, it is not a football family, right? This is a football story, but not a football family

at the beginning. Well, yeah, his brother actually plays football, too, and he's quite good, and at first, he's in the shadow of his brother. He grew up so shy, and because he had so much self-doubt, he sort of was okay being in the background on the football team. He just liked being out there. I mean, I was, you know, still am, very,

to myself, very quiet. And with football, it gave me a release, you know, at that time, because there were so many things that maybe I wanted to do or say that I couldn't. But I can do it on the football field. I can take it out there. You know, I can burn that energy. I can be. And then from somewhere within himself, is this drive to work harder than everyone? I was writing letters to smaller schools and I was pretty much set to go to the Navy.

Not to play football, I was enlisting in the Navy. But then that hard work opened up a talent that showed my senior year on a really, really, really high level. He had been both a running back and a defensive back in high school and there was a great running back ahead of him for most of his career. So he was sort of like, oh, I'm just not good enough. That guy graduates and all of a sudden he gets a lot more touches and is blowing people out of the water as a senior.

And I was able to get some offers. Bob Stoops is trying to come after him. Jim Tressel, guys who are now essentially Hall of Famers, but were at the beginning of their careers. There's this moment, too, for him where he's deeply embarrassed by his family's situation. He understands how hard it is for his mom, but he also is so embarrassed to have these big name coaches

in his living room where they have a giant orange extension cord snaking out of the house, through the window and into their neighbors to borrow electricity because they can't afford it. They don't have hot water. He doesn't have a phone until his senior year, which becomes very important as he's taking recruiting calls that they actually do have a working phone.

So he's sitting in class and he looks out the window and he sees this cherry apple red Mercedes. Me and my buddies, we look out the window, like, ah, everybody's pointing like, man, look at this car, it's a candy, apple, red, and gold Mercedes. You know, something that we had never seen. Something like that before, especially. And a moment later, he gets a pink slip to go to the office,

and the guy that came out of the car was actually there to see him. And it was like a movie. He turned around, like, turned around slow, and the camera was on him, whatever. And he looked at me and he said, hey, I'm Sherman Smith, running back coach from Miami University. Sherman Smith had played for the Seahawks and he said, hey, I'm Sherman Smith, running back coach for Miami University.

Sherman Smith had played for the Seahawks and stayed after to coach and had just left Seattle for Miami of Ohio to go coach at his alma mater. And he drove out this car that he bought from an up and coming rapper named Sir Mix-A-Lot. Oh my God. I'm flabbergasted that Sir Mix-A-Lot is in this story. Yeah, yeah, me too.

I like big bucks and I cannot lie. You other brothers can't deny. That when a girl walks in with itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face you get sprung. But yeah, he goes to the office and meets this guy Sherman and he realizes that this aura is coming from someone who had really made it. Was from Youngstown, was like him, but had gone on to the NFL. And now he was talking to a guy that had been a star at the highest level and who believed

that he might be that too. So the idea that again, you know, Sherman Smith played eight seasons at running back for the Seahawks was a second round pick in the 76 draft was the guy with Sir Mix-a-Lot's car, which is really like the first line in any biography we need to give. But like, how does visiting Miami of Ohio even work? Well, Sherman drives back to Youngstown to pick them up and then takes them there over Christmas break.

And a lot of folks are home, but there's a couple teammates around, introduced him to the rest of the coaching staff, walked him around. Like, he loved this school, the facilities, the campus. And then also the character that Sherman showed Adele, D-Lynn's adoptive mom, just a good guy who cared about his education, wanted to be a good role model for him.

That really impacted them too. Adele wanted to make sure he went somewhere that if he got hurt or if it didn't work out, he still got an education. Right. And so positionally then, what is the job? Well, he's going to be a running back. And so the weeks before he arrives, they tell him, we're actually going to put you at flanker. He's going to get a lot of playing time.

And he was in practice one day. They're getting ready for their last kind of scrimmage. I'm watching one of the backup running backs and he is just doing outstanding and it's against the backups. But I'm just sitting here and like a tear went down my face and I said, man, I'm a running back. I'm a running back.

I'm a running back. And I went on to... And so we went to meet Wren Sherman Smith and said, I'd rather take a red shirt ear and really work to be a running back than be a flanker. So we did that. He actually stepped away from playing time to get to do the thing he wanted to do most, which meant being on the scout team, being a red shirt, and having to sit and watch for a whole season. And presumably, he believes that the coaching staff believes in him.

And so Sherman Smith, the coach, his leadership style is best described as what? Just a real players coach, an inspiring guy with really high standards, extremely high standards. He would say to every team at the beginning of the season, none of you asked me to be a father, but I'm going to treat you like you're my sons.

He cared as much about how do I make these players full human beings that are going to be successful in life as he did about the football side. All of which is to say that for Dylan McCullough, who grew up searching for a father figure and never got one, you can guess why this style of coaching felt like more than a cliche. And so even though Dieland is mostly working with assistants, because the starters are the ones who get most of the time with the running backs coach and the head coach, he still goes after practice and spends a lot of time just connecting with Sherman and really asking him for advice.

Before Dieland ever gets to take a single snap at Miami of Ohio, the same thing that happened with Deland's biological father and Deland's adoptive radio DJ father proceeds to happen once again with his new mentor in college. Sherman Smith leaves. Because not long after recruiting Deland McCullough to Miami of Ohio, Sherman himself got recruited by the University of Illinois, where he would become an assistant coach at a way bigger program in the Big Ten. And he doesn't want to go at first, but the rest of the coaching staff says, like, this is a great opportunity, you got to go. And so Sherman Smith

goes a different way, eventually making it all the way up to the coaching staff of Pete Carroll's Seattle Seahawks, his old team, Dylan McCullough understands, he does, why his new mentor had to go. And while the two of them will stay in touch from afar, Dylan finds himself again back on his own, fighting to push ahead by himself, one yard at a time. Dardy off the McCullough, he comes to the near side, he's at the 35-30, and out of bounds, inside the 15-yard line.

He might break that Miami record today if they keep giving him the ball. And that is ultimately how it happened, by the way. By his senior year of college, skipping ahead now to 2005, Dylan McCullough would in fact break that Miami record, the school's all-time rushing record, after leading the team in rushing for four straight seasons. His whole bet had paid off, but it also imprinted permanent expectations

of a different kind. Well, everyone was convinced he was getting drafted. This was a guy whose numbers were up there with the top running back prospects and he was sitting with his agent on draft night watching, expecting to be called, you know, maybe third or fourth round. Yeah, and you look at the statistics, and he was sitting with his agent on draft night watching, expecting to be called, you know, maybe third or fourth round. Yeah, and you look at the statistics, I mean, hard to do better than that.

And so where does he get drafted? The Cincinnati Bengals call him early in the draft, and they're like, hey man, you excited? He's like, yeah. And they're like, all right, we're thinking about you. He's like, whoa, okay. He doesn't get drafted. A couple teams call right when the draft ends and extend the training camp offers. He ends up with the Bengals.

It is the best situation because of their depth chart. He is going to make the surprise move of an undrafted guy making that roster. He's leading the NFL in preseason rushing yards. And then with two minutes left in our final preseason game of that you know that my work a year my knee get blown out and several like all the ligaments get blown up every kind of damage you know compound fracture MCL AC all that stuff and he over the next couple years really puts his time in to try to make

it back to the NFL then the CFL and at one point even gives a little time to the XFL. And then I just stopped playing. Because I kept on saying, people say, I can't do this. It was always for me proving people wrong, proving people wrong. And nobody would think I can come back after three knee surgeries, and I did. But at that point, I said, you know what? It's time for me to transition to something different. He really wanted to try to make it work as a player, but ultimately, this guy just keeps getting

handed a tough deal and finding a way through it, finding resilience. And he actually wanted to get into education to help kids who had come up in tough times like he did. So while he's trying to make it in football, he's working his way at residential centers for at-risk youth. Then he goes into teaching and he's trying to help kids and then he becomes a principal. So like all these ways he's trying to learn how to be an impactful male figure in the lives of young people, especially those who have tough childhoods. And football starts sneaking its way and everybody hears that he was the big football player.

So he starts coaching and he realizes he can use football to uplift kids and make it even more compelling for them to want to stay in school and learn these lessons by using the sport that he loves. Yeah, it's just hard, Sarah, to escape this notion that there's a gravitational pull on D-Land. Yeah, it's just hard, Sarah, to escape this notion that there's a gravitational pull on Dillon. He tries to leave Youngstown, Ohio, makes it out because Sherman Smith ends up convincing him that Miami of Ohio is the place where Youngstown, Ohio kids can use it as a springboard to go to the NFL.

But then the NFL chews him up, spits him out, and he tries to then fight what seems like destiny at this point. Because where does he, where does he wind up after trying to Be an educator outside of the football field Well football pulls him back and of course he ends up at Miami of Ohio is where he gets his first College coaching gig and he's not there for too long He has pretty immediate success gets recruited to go coach at Indiana has success, helps a couple running backs to the NFL, and he gets nominated for coach of the year honors,

and he starts doing some coaching internships in the NFL, and really starts to set his sights on some bigger programs and the opportunities at the pro level. He ends up doing one of his coaching internships actually with the Seattle Seahawks, which is where Coach Sherman Smith was, coaching under Pete Carroll, and he gets a chance to really use his skillset. Seattle Seahawks, which is where Coach Sherman Smith was coaching under Pete Carroll.

And he gets a chance to really use his skill set. In some of the other internships, they kind of just had him watch. But Coach Sherman Smith puts him right in there and he starts to recognize pretty immediately, Dillon does, that his coaching style is really similar to his old coach. He really picked up a lot of messages from him as, I'm going to be a role model and a leader. I'm going to treat these guys like full human beings. I'm not trying to scare them into anything. I'm gonna give them respect

and they're gonna give me respect in turn. The guys think that he's being a giant kiss ass. That he's just really trying to impress everyone and show them that he's deserving of a spot in the NFL. And they're making fun of him for copying everything Sherman does. You walk like him, you talk like him, you want to be him. And he kind of is at first a little embarrassed and then he realizes I don't care if they know that this is how bad I want it. And he literally starts changing his passwords to I will coach in the NFL. He's trying to like manifest it that hard. Wait, hold on. So as Dillon is like, there's a little swim fan in this, admittedly, a little

swim fanning of the National Football League. But this coaching internship with the NFL, with the Seahawks, then serves to get him where as his next stop in college. USC comes calling. One of the greatest programs in all of college football history. So he's on a plane with his family. He's got kids at this point and ends up in Southern California. And he is getting some major side eye when he arrives. He's got some very unique coaching styles.

He likes to fill footballs with water to make them really heavy and harder to hold. And then when you get back to the normal football, you're clenching it tighter. He's got a big pylon with a stick and he's jabbing guys as they're trying to run by to poke the ball out to get them to practice holding on. And that running backs crew is ready to go. And he has yet another really successful squad. All of which is to say that there is now real pride in D-Land's gravitational field at this point. Dieland has already interned

for Pete Carroll with the Seahawks where his old mentor Sherman Smith was on staff and eager to reunite with him before Sherman himself retired from coaching, permanently imprinting Dieland's speeches by the way with Sherman's lessons about responsibility and now Dieland found himself responsible for the running backs at Pete Carroll's old employer, the University of Southern California, at age 44. Not to mention his own biological kids. And he realizes there's still a part of him that very much wants to know who he is. And he starts looking on websites and sort of isn't fully committed.

And then there's a moment that his mom calls him where the lawyer that helped her facilitate his adoption has passed away and she can get a box of records from his office. And D-Land, you should know, had zero idea that this box even existed. And his adoptive mother, you should know, had zero idea that this box even existed. And his adoptive mother, at this moment, proceeds to tell him about some other things inside this box that Deland, at age 44, did not know.

Things like the orphanage where you were adopted. And he's like, wait, an orphanage? But the orphanage was just the beginning. She reveals his name was originally John. And he said, why? Why John? She said, I don't know, it's maybe religious or something. Who knows? But the orphanage was just the beginning. She reveals his name was originally John. And he said, why? Why John? She said, I don't know, it's maybe religious or something. Who knows?

And pretty soon it becomes apparent that the only people who could actually answer these questions with any clarity were the parents that Deland did not know. And so Deland McCullough resolves to find out. And so first he starts looking in Ohio and ultimately is able to get the call back that they found his papers. But the woman on the other end says, I can't tell you that I can't send them to you.

And he says, what do you mean? And he realizes that she's holding papers for a different state. You remember I said his mom said Pittsburgh. That's where we went to pick up Dylan when we adopted him. So even though he grew up in Ohio, he was actually born and adopted in Pennsylvania and the laws were different in that state. But then Dillon discovers something crucial. While he was busy coaching running backs, lawmakers in Pennsylvania, it turns out, had finally pushed a thing called HB 162 finally pushed a thing called HB 162 through their legislature. And this was a long, arduous process, but they pushed forward one yard at a time.

Thank you very much. As I'm sure everyone's aware, today we'll be holding a discussion about a bill intended to give adoptees access to their original birth records here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The legislation that we're here to discuss is House Bill 162, which has been introduced by the good gentleman from Center County, Representative Kerry Benninghoff. And in fairness to Deland, I also had zero idea that adopted children in various states in America prior to HB 162 and various state bills like it were not allowed to view their own birth records. That this was in fact illegal until recently. In fact the only reason I found out about it at all was from talking to Deland and Sarah and researching this story ourselves.

So now just try to imagine how Deland McCullough felt as he sat there waiting at age 44. November 2017, I'm sitting in my office. I was at USC and I just said, man, I wonder what's going on with this adoption paperwork. It just hit me that day. And then when I got home, I'm just going through the mail and it was, and it was, I got it right here, it was there. Well, first he is sort of surprised at how thin the envelope is and figures it must be something telling him they couldn't find it.

And imagine getting the mail and it's like, you know, 10% off at Bed Bath and Beyond, and then your birth certificate. Like that's how unassuming this letter was. So the top of it says, non-certified copy of original birth record, date of birth, December 1st, 1972. It has the date that it was issued in November 2017. And then it says, name given at birth, John Kenneth Briggs, sex, male, place of birth, Allegheny County parent, Carol Denise

Briggs, I'm age 16. So they all start Googling. He plugs in Carol D. Briggs in a couple places and ends up finding her, sends her a message on Facebook, and essentially just says, did you have a baby that you gave up for adoption in Pennsylvania in 1971? I got a message on my phone saying, message read. So my heart was like, oh, shoot, start beating like, oh, beating crazy. And at first she accepts the message, but doesn't answer.

And then he sends a follow up question mark. And she messaged back, yes. So I was in a meeting at that time and I got up and walked out of the meeting. So I said, what did you name the baby? She said John, and she spelled it the exact same way it is on here. And the water work started at that point. So she had been a 16 year old honor student,

had had an OOPSE, and her family sent her off to an orphanage slash home for mothers and girls in Pennsylvania to have the baby in private, be pregnant in private, and then go back to school with no one the wiser. She didn't tell anyone but her parents and her one cousin. She didn't even tell the dad because he was already off to college and she felt responsible. I said, where are you? She said Youngstown. I told her where I was. I said, I lived in Youngstown. She came to find out we were only 10 minutes from each other.

Probably passed him in the aisles at the grocery store. They were in the exact same place. And it just happened to be that the family that adopted him out of Pennsylvania was a family that lived in Youngstown. Yeah, this is where I just come in, dealing the reporter, by the way, Sarah. Like, you're a good journalist, like dealing, just like... He found out, Pablo. Dealing with Paula finds out is an impressive feat. And one, by the way, that I imagine...

I'm just trying to put myself in his shoes for a second, because this is overwhelming, I must imagine, on some level, to know that his mom was actually around very nearby this whole time. At first, he thinks, well, wait, if you're in Youngstown, do I have siblings? Like, I might know them, right? If you had other kids, I might have grown up with them.

Who else in my family might I have known? And she did not get married, she didn't have any other kids, and she have grown up with them. Who else in my family might I have known? And she did not get married. She didn't have any other kids. And she'd been looking for him for years. And it's just really heartwarming how much joy she felt in not only finding out he was okay and successful, but now she has a son and grandkids and this extended family. And the logical next question, obviously, as he continues to find out is, all right, who's

my birth dad? Yeah. He says, it doesn't list a father on my birth certificate. And he asks her, do you know who my father is? And she said, your dad is like, my mind was blown. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door.

A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. It's just a sort of twist you dream of. It's just jealousy is what I feel. I feel jealousy. I feel awe. I feel like I'm watching a weird version of The Sixth Sense in which, you know, Dylan has been seeing his dad the whole time, actually. And that's f***ing wild. Your dad is a man by the name of Sherman Smith.

Like I said, when she said that, I was like... My mind was blown. And she said, like, I was like... You could hear, she could obviously hear me kind of choke up and get emotional. She said, well, what's wrong? I said, oh, I know him. He recruited me. He was my coach and he's been my mentor over the last 20 whatever years, 20 plus years. How does D-Land then tell Sherman what he has found out? Sherman what he has found out. Right. He's nervous about it and isn't sure what to say, but he asks his birth mom, Carol,

if he can be the one to tell him. So I reached out to him. I sent him a text and I said, hey, coach, I need to talk to you about son. 45 years later, he's going to get a phone call from someone who says, I'm your son that he knows. I just kind of jumped right into it. I said, Hey, what's going on? Cause yeah, what's going on? I said, you know, I'm adopted. Yeah, I know you adopted.

I said, I found my biological mom. So my dad is really strong in his faith. He's all man, he was your man, you know, God is good, man. That's a blessing. All these different things like that. And I said, well, it's a little bit more. He said, what's that? And I just kind of ran straight through it.

I said, her name is Carol Briggs. And when I asked her who was my dad, she said, I just ran straight just like that. And it was silent on the other end. So I'm excited. He's blown away. And then he made me a couple seconds, maybe less than a minute later, he said,

Leelan, I need to get off the phone. I need to process this. He's spent his entire life wondering about his birth parents. But for Sherman, it's zero to 45-year-old son with no warning. He hasn't been looking for that. He has a happy wife and family and kids. But he almost doesn't want to imagine that he could be the kind of person who made a choice that resulted in other people having to be responsible. He had always told his players,

there's no such thing as irresponsibility. When you're irresponsible, someone else becomes responsible for what you didn't do. He has led a life leading young men and telling them how to be. And then he recognizes that he might not have been the guy he always thought he was. And so at first he's not overjoyed the way Dylan would hope. He needs some time. I initially took that as a blow.

But then I quickly flipped because he sent me a text a little bit later on and he said, Hey man, Carol knew she had a baby. You knew you had parents out there. I knew nothing. And then he starts thinking about how the story isn't his, it's Dielen's. How Dielen has spent his whole life looking for this piece of himself and how he needed to stop centering himself and consider what it meant to Dielen to find him and really consider that it could be true. They get a paternity test. It's 99.999999% and as he's waiting for those results, he realizes that he will in fact be very sad if he is not his father.

By this point, he's come around to the idea that they've had this connection, that this story is almost faded. How long does it take for Sherman Smith, the coach, to become Sherman Smith, the dad? How does the language around that change, given their relationship has been long and intimate, but in this, again, non-biological way? It isn't crystallized until they see each other

in person for the first time, after knowing their connection as father-son. Dylan's actually got recruiting trips that allow him to get near Tennessee and where Sherman lives in retirement and goes there for the very first time to see his dad as his dad. There's this just incredible moment and I cry every time I think about it. I cried writing it. I cried writing it. I cried the first time Deilin said it,

but Deilin goes to see him for the first time in person after they know of their connection as father, son. And he's nervous and sitting in the car and Sherman looks out the window and sees him sitting and he's like, oh, this cat's nervous. Like he's just sitting out in his car, not coming up, even though we've known each other for years. And when Deilin gets to the doorstep.

I get up on the porch and he opens the door. He just said, my son. And it was like, oh, the tears start rolling again. Because I'd never been referred to as somebody's son. He embraced me fully, full arms wide open and said, my son. And he embraced me and it was, here we go. Right, his adoptive dad left when he was two. He hasn't had a dad since. He embraced me and it was, here we go. His adoptive dad left when he was two. He hasn't had a dad since.

And he didn't realize how much he was carrying feelings of, am I enough? Am I worthy? Does someone want to claim me? And for this man, this ideal of a person, to embrace him and call him his son, he just sort of let his inner child release and cry and be embraced by this man. And so now we're in the present, Sarah, and they have this relationship,

they have talked to you about it, you're updating your reporting. What's it been like? What's it been like since they got to have that, I mean, truly cinematic level of embrace? It's been joyful mostly and also complicated. And for me, doing the story the first time, we did a lot of work on it, but nothing like writing a book. So the hours and hours of interviews, all the people I talked to,

all the detail I unravel. And I mean, there's a twist with his brother that I didn't know the first time I reported it, that I think is day one stuff if I was talking to someone and his brother didn't think it was day one stuff. So I didn't find out till I start writing the book that there's a whole nother parental twist that goes on in his family even before what happens with his dad and so you have to read the book for that there's a tease that we're not giving away in this interview but yes I'm as I'm doing more of these interviews and I'm and I'm talking to everyone in the family I am working so hard to understand each perspective you've got an adoptive mom

in Adele who sacrificed so much to raise these two boys as a single mom, thinking that she was going to have this partner in AC, the radio DJ, and instead she's alone, post-industrial collapse, not a lot of money. And they turn out so well, they become these successful young men. And then here come these birth parents who have a lot of judgment at first about what he went through as a kid. They wanted the best for him. Both Sherman is someone who cared about him and had met him as a young man and then Carol who gave him away with the expectation he would end up in a two family home.

Everything would be, you know, this idyllic setting you imagine an adoptive family that really wants a baby and can't have one of their own. And instead he has this really tough childhood. And so it's almost a role reversal of a lot of adoption stories you hear, right? Where the birth parents are struggling or fighting something, they give up a baby and here come the saviors

to fix everything. And instead you've got these two incredible, well-adjusted, successful adults looking at this woman who did her very best, but still struggled at times. And so to really understand, like, what he got from Adele, his adoptive mom, and then what almost certainly came to him through DNA,

how similar he is to Sherman, even though they didn't meet until he was 17 years old, and even though he wasn't his life as a mentor, but not all the time. How he became, I mean, the same exact life. It's surreal. I mean, it really is. We both from Youngstown, we both went to Miami.

We both go into the Hall of Fame at Miami. We both go and play pro ball. We both our careers end because of knee injuries. Both of us, right after playing football, go into education. Both of our first jobs in college was at Miami. Our next job was both in the Big Ten. To won a Super Bowl, lost a Super Bowl, both of them to Tom Brady, had son, son goes to Miami of Ohio, plays defensive back, like is a teacher. Like it's just, it's remarkable. At the center of that Venn diagram along all of these like overlapping circles is at least

one dude, in this case, Pete Carroll, who happens to be the guy who employed both of these men as coaches in the NFL. Can you catch us up to just the unending gravitational field around Dylan McCullough and his life? Yeah, I mean, he just took a job with the Raiders and he is now coaching under the boy wonder who I guess never ages and retires, Pete Carroll, who could be both the head coach of his dad as a running backs coach and now the head coach of of Dealin with the Raiders. And it is funny to hear Dealin tell us about what Pete Carroll had detected back when Dealin was an intern with the Seahawks and Sherman Smith was a coach on the staff.

Because Pete Carroll kind of sniffed this out before you know the DNA test did. Like in the beginning one of the staff meetings, Coach Carroll, you know, the DNA test did. Like in the beginning, one of the staff meetings, Coach Carroll, you know, he'd go and do his thing and he just looked down and he said, hey, you know what, something's going on here. He said, we're sitting up watching you two guys looking across the field at two guys working with the running backs.

You guys walk the same, point the same, talk the same. He said, it's just crazy. And we just laughed. ["The Truth of Life," by James R. R. Ransom, playing in background.] ["The Truth of Life," by James R. Ransom, playing in background.] ["The Truth of Life," by James R. Ransom, playing in background.] ["The Truth of Life," by James R. Ransom, playing in background.] ["The Truth of Life," by James R. Ransom, playing in background.] And so understanding that we are both a product of what made us

and also of everything around us, also implies choice, which is like the through line of this book, is yes, you are handed certain genes, yes, you are handed certain family, certain circumstances, but your choice at every turn impacts, whether you make it out, whether you make it right, whether you make it good, whether like Dylan, you decide to end a bunch of cycles

that you don't think serve you or your kids. I don't want to be a father who abandons his family. I don't want to be abusive. I don't want to be somebody who doesn't stick around. I want to be the opposite of what I saw. And I think especially with adoption, that's very poignant because with adoption, it's I could be anyone. I could live anywhere.

I could be named anything. Like instead, he said at every turn, I'm in charge and this is my choice. Yeah. That's the thing I realized about the way I've been hearing this story up till really now, which is I thought that this was a story about a guy sucked into a gravitational field beyond his control. And then you realize that actually he is the one making these calls himself. And part of what it is to live in this profoundly, seemingly scripted, unscripted story,

is that the choices he makes are the ones that bring him back to who he is. We always say you don't get to choose your family. And he did. God. Put that did. God. Put that in the trailer. Put that in the trailer for the movie, Sarah. I mean, is it hard to not think about the movie?

I mean, look, we talked about managing the surprise and the reveal. Well, and here's your final fun fact. Two of the executive producers on the film we are planning to make but have not yet signed a studio to are Russell Wilson and Sierra. Just like Sir Mix-a-Lot, I'm just dropping that in. And guess what? The potential for this film is unlimited. Oh my God. Does Sir Mix-a-Lot know this story? Does he know what you're up to, Sarah?

Gosh, he does know what I'm up to. He used to be a regular listener to Spain and Fitz on ESPN Radio. So this is where I need to report that I have now spent a chunk of my Memorial Day weekend reaching out to Sir Mix-A-Lot for comment. Comment on whether he does, in fact fact know what Sarah Spain is up to lately with this book, with this story, and also whether Sir Mix-A-Lot is aware that former NFL coach Sherman Smith bought his candy apple red and gold Mercedes and then used it to recruit a running back that Sherman Smith would only realize decades later was actually his baby. A baby he didn't know about. But a baby he got back. I mean, I just want to let that

one sit for a second. I remember that I posted about the car and it being Sir Mix-A-Lots on Twitter and tagged him. I don't think he responded though. I remember the last exchange I had with Sir Mix-A-Lot was, not surprisingly, about butts. I'm searching for this in February 3rd, 2020. At Sarah Spain. Don't know what prompted it. Quote, are we talking butts today?

Question mark, I'm in. And you replied via quote tweet, we always know we can count on you. Yeah. At the real mix, winking emoji. But I don't know if that's true anymore, honestly. Because what I'm also here to report is that Sir Mix-A-Lot has not yet gotten back to me. I sent him and his manager a whole bunch of texts over the weekend, I even dialed his

hotline per what I thought were very clear instructions, and I got nothing. And so Sir Mix-A-Lot, you're the end here. If you are listening, sir, we have our own hotline actually that we would like you to call. So please dial the PTFO TIP hotline at 513-85-Pablo. That is 513-85-Pablo. A very real number. You can call.

And please do get back to us. This has been a lot to find out today, Sarah. I have a feeling that that is not in the book, that exchange. Yes, that Twitter exchange is not in the book, but lots of other good stuff is. So you know, read it, buy it, order it, tell your friends. Sarah, thank you for making the choice to do this with me. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks for having me.

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlk Media Production. And I'll talk to you next time.