The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - PTFO - Share & DOGE & Tell with Mina Kimes, Dan Le Batard, and Pablo Torre

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

On this week’s Share & Tell, Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard join us to discuss DOGE cutting — and being shamed into restoring — USAID support for starving children, Colorado QB Shedeur Sanders and his suddenly tumbling draft stock, and the increasingly explicit love affair between a woman and her ChatGPT. Plus: cuckqueans, Deion’s Family Playbook, and why you should NEVER. STOP. POSTING. Further content: Trump assault on USAID She Is in Love With ChatGPT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. Today's episode is brought to you by DraftKings. DraftKings, the crown is yours. And today we're going to find out what this sound is. But I do b**** dropping my forehead to the a**. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, the way your body still tries to f*** me deeper even as you f***ed me. Right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe King's Network. You hear that?

Ugh, paid. And done. That's the sound of bills being paid on time. But with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card, paying your bills could sound like this. Earn rewards for paying your bill in full and on time each month. Rise to rewards with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. Terms and conditions apply. Terms and conditions apply. Hello. It's nice to see you. It's been too long. We haven't done this in too long. What happened? How many months has it been?

It's been a couple. It's been too long. The fans have demanded this. And you guys are so busy. You're so busy running. How many fans demanded this and you guys you guys are so busy You're so busy running. How many fans demand so many? Oh, so what was the outcry like there's a protest There's a protest on the sidewalk outside our studio. There were signs. Are we filming? I've been putting lotion on my arms the entire time. I've been watching you moisturize and People say that that's weird around here. Is it weird? Is this something I should be doing in private? Is this something I should be doing in the bathroom?

Lotion on the forearms. I think the answer is definitively yes to every question you just asked. I don't like watching anyone do anything hygienic in public or not hygienic but like I guess grooming or personal care, cutting their nails. I mean, I guess people don't really do that in public, but I just don't like- I've seen it. You've seen it. You've seen cutting nails. Subway, Subway, nail clippers.

Oh yeah. I've seen some stoop nail clippers. I have seen the bottle of lubriderm that Dan keeps underneath his desk in Miami. Are the two of you in consensus on this though? Are you guys saying that there is not a single thing from the hygiene realm that can be done in public that wouldn't disgust Mina because she believes these things are intimate privacies? I draw the line at just Dan oiling himself up

while podcasting with us. Everything else I'm pretty much good with, frankly. Yeah, it's like he has to lubricate his entire body to be involved in this. I don't know, it's just something just, I just don't like watching it, that's all. I don't like watching people brush their hair. I don't like watching people put in contacts is a thing that I find really rewarding. How about put on makeup?

I do that all the time. How about put on makeup? How about put on lipstick? Put on makeup. I'm so used to being around that because I work in television that at this point, it doesn't bother me, but it did bother me at first, I think.

I was still like a little bit put off by it. I don't know. This is where we remember that Mina's kind of a never nude. Yeah, I'm very squeamish about all of these things. Not kind of. She is a never nude. Never is an absolute. It's not kind of.

There are no diluters. She showers wearing what she's presently wearing, including the microphone and the earpiece. I'll tell you what. Having an 18-month-old and you asked how my life is going is very humbling for anyone who doesn't like hygienic things in public or nudity. Especially when you're 18-month-old, just decides randomly that baths, the thing he was totally cool with

for the first 18 months of his life, are now like being dipped in hot lava, and he will scream an ear-splitting screech unless mama, fully clothed, gets in the bath with him. So that was the thing that happened last night. ["Spring Day"] So we have a story here that I want to start with that I wasn't aware of until it got real close to home, real close to our studio. But I was thinking about how do I want to handle like what's happening in DC with Doge

and Elon Musk and all of that. And I thought because he's announced that he's about to cut 72,000 jobs at the VA, I was like, look, my dad worked at the VA as a urologist for decades. That was his job. Didn't have a private practice, worked with vets for a really long time. And I was like, that is clearly the way that I want to handle this story. And then I came across this other story, Mina, about a non-profit called Manna Nutrition. And so Manna Nutrition, Dan if you're not caught up on this, is run by a guy named Mark

Moore. He's in Georgia. He makes a special kind of peanut butter paste for USAID that he then sends out to severely malnourished kids all around the world, especially in Africa. But as for what happened with Mark Moore and his peanut butter paste last week, we called Mark up actually in Georgia to have him explain. We make these packets of peanut butter about the size of an iPhone. See that USCID thing. We also make these generic ones. So the big switch this past week,

we lost our contract to make these with the gift of the American people on it. Ironically, they said we don't want that on there. MANNA stands for Mother Administered Nutritive Aid. They got that contract cut by Elon Musk and Doge and then Mark told us that he started hearing something that was even crazier. What I hear when I think Elon was on Joe Rogan saying, oh, these people are griping, it's fake news. He's starving mothers. There's mothers that can't get food.

Totally false. That's all you're hearing. Yeah. That's no one's talking in any of these mainstream liberal talk shows. No one is talking about all this fraud and waste. Yeah, because we're cutting off their graph machine. So that's what they're upset about. And for us, we just had no information. We weren't griping. We were just doing our job

and there was we were getting official comms from USAID. Email addresses we didn't even recognize, people we don't know. But with the USAID letterhead and URL saying, hey, stop, my email started lighting up one after another, just, you know, four Sudan, four Democratic Republic of Congo. These are each individual kind of line items into a bigger contract. So it's about a, we had won through a bidding process about a $50 million contract over six months.

And those are big numbers. And, you know, a lot of Twitter trolls have come after us saying, these are just the type of people that need to be cut. But we're nonprofit. We make this stuff. It's super transparent. And the reason I mentioned Mina is because Mina is the reason that I saw this story in the first place. And Mina, I'm curious your process for discovering this story as well, because you become a character in it, actually. I get a couple news newsletters, one of which is the Times newsletter. I think that's the one I could probably go back.

But in any case, eventually it took me back to a CNN story where it laid out what this man in Georgia is describing in detail, which is amidst the nondiscriminate cuts to USAID, and USAID, and this has been reported, this is just simply fact, Elon Musk made claims that they were being very careful about not cutting off life saving aid or whatever. This has all been proven to not be true. They're just slashing and burning and then figuring it out later, which has of course been the approach to a lot of things. So one of the things lost in this process was this contract and the

story talked about how this particular company had $10 million worth of this life-saving, nutritious food in a warehouse in Georgia, ready to go, but then they couldn't ship it because all of the money had been cut off, putting the lives of hundreds of thousands of children at risk around the world. And yeah, it just stuck me when I first read it. And then I think a day later, I was still thinking about it and just the senselessness of it. So I just screenshotted that those facts again, the facts, this is not an opinion story. This is not a column and just shared it on Twitter, which we can talk about that I've mixed feelings about using and generally yes And then this dude John Favreau was one of the hosts of positive America the political podcast who was a former Obama speechwriter

reshare that Then he got in a back-and-forth with Elon Musk about it where Musk Lied and denied. And then he looked into it as well, I guess, or had as minions do. And less than a day later, they, I believe, restored that contract.

So then there was a follow-up from CNN saying that this guy was now able to ship all of this food around the world purely because Musk saw the story and decided that he didn't want to, I don't know what motivates him these days and decided to release the funding. Just to clarify, so Marco Rubio, Secretary of State and Elon Musk had previously said that all life-saving assistance that was already purchased and allocated for like starving children, that was going to be fine.

Wouldn't be affected by the cuts. This reporting comes out, Mina amplifies it, John Favreau amplifies her amplification, and suddenly Elon Musk is forced to do an about face and restore the contract. And it's just like this is Twitter is literally the government now. Like this we are, it's wild. You're right that Twitter is running the government and an overgrown high school child who is interested in attention and powers accruing it. All of this stuff is offensive. All you're doing is trying to correct all of the imbalances that we already have between the United States and the rest of the

world with just this little bit of money for us. And of course, what it ends up becoming is we want all the money, we want to isolate, we want to be our own country. But starving children is one that I feel like all Americans can agree. Send them peanut butter. That we already paid for, made by a nonprofit. Not all Americans can agree. This is was to me, and the reason why I did a screenshot,

I was like, this is about as straightforward as a bad thing that gets in the world, and an obvious thing. It's not only just like, hey, should we help starving kids? But also, we already created the capability to do this. This is not just shameful, it's wasteful and stupid, right? And I did look at some of the replies and there's people saying, it's not our job to feed the world, we need this.

Teach them. Some guy said teach a man a fish and he'll fish forever, which that one really got under my skin, you know, and then there's this like, well, this belief that we have been overtaxed in helping other people. We're talking about, as you just said, a very tiny amount of money in this grand scheme of things. And by the way, when this money is, you know, saved, which is a word that I hate, it's not going to help the people who need it. It's going to give tax cuts to people like the three of us. But whatever, that's not neither here nor there. And look, the worst of the people

are being amplified in the... So when I look in the replies, I am seeing the worst possible people. But it was so unbelievably disheartening just to see something that seems so simply good and right be subject to controversy and debate because of the misinformation being propagated on that platform. But the thing about this as a platform, right, we talk about social media all the time, like we're addicted to it, we want to get off of Elon's platform specifically for all the reasons that are now obvious. But at the same time, like what I cannot help be struck by is that

this also was what qualifies as a feel-good story. The idea that you could tweet your way to restoring Aid to starving children even though it was imposed by the man that That cancellation was because of the man who owns the platform that we're talking on I guess part of what I'm balancing here And I feel crazy for even suggesting that there's anything that feels good about this, but it's like I didn't realize that any amount of shame, even the most extreme of this is killing kids in Africa who relied on U.S.

packets of peanut butter with the American flag on them. Right. Like I'm like, I just I'm actually kind of startled that anything changed. And it's paid for, like this part's important, right? So Mina's pointing out, no, not everyone agrees that America should be sending peanut butter for malnourished kids outside of America. Fine, but I think everyone can agree, we shouldn't be wasting that peanut butter and nourishment if we've already paid for it.

The reason she's saying this is so overt is, like, at this point, you're just actively participating in cruelty if you want to be wasteful instead of helping the malnourished children. Pablo, your point about, like, this should be, like, a feel-good story. I felt good about the role that I played in this for about 15 minutes. 15 minutes, I thought, hey, all right, maybe I can use my platform to do good things. This thing that happened and it's obviously good and I am very relieved. And then 15 minutes later, that sense of feeling good and feeling like I accomplished something was immediately

overwhelmed by the sense that a world in which I can even do this is a bad one. It's one where we are reliant on individuals and shame and the infinitely small possibility that those things can conspire for good things to happen. So I don't feel good about this story. I feel pretty damn bad about it and it is something that is just now stuck with me days later as a vanishingly small victory in a lot of ways. Well now it feels like also, no pressure or anything, you kind of gotta stay on the app. That's the other side of this, right? That's the other thing. It's like, I mean, look, if there's anything Machiavellian about why

Elon did any of this in terms of the reversal, it's because maybe he actually wants to incentivize people to stay who vehemently disagree with everything he's doing. Because the whole premise of Twitter at the beginning, right? Dan, you remember this? It was like, wait a minute, I could talk to Shaq? Like that was the whole point of Twitter. And now it's you can actually affect change in the government. And I want to play a bit of sound from Mark Moore about this topic,

because of course, while all of this is the nightmare that anybody who's on this stupid platform, of course would have, he has, I think a realist's appreciation for it. Thank you, Mina. Thank you, John. Um, they've taken the means that, that are available to them and made a difference in this case. And we do have to do, I think what Elon should be good at as a coder and as a businessman is cost benefit analysis. Others may say, Mina may say, what's a kid's life worth?

If you don't value that kid's life because they're far away and they're not of our tribe. That's one way to look at it. But what's it worth to reach so cheaply into these deep communities and to send a message of America first? It's it's pretty great messaging. It's pretty powerful and impactful. And I'm hoping that we pause for a moment and say, the food aid stuff we do is not going to make a discernible difference in the right sizing of our government spending. But it does make a huge impact in life saved.

That's the kind of, unfortunately, nowadays, maybe that's a manby-pamby thing to talk about, to actually care about kids who aren't our kids. He's articulating something that feels hopeful and Mina is articulating something that feels hopeless. And Mina's hopelessness has been earned by the number of things like this happening at a pace that don't seem to have strategy behind them.

So I prefer his viewpoint, but I feel like his viewpoint is getting engulfed by all of us feeling some form of the hopelessness that Mina's articulating, which is even when I do something good, I cannot enjoy it because of everything that happens in the aftermath that feels like it's poisoned. And I think this is something, again,

we'll see a lot over the next four years, is people who do have to continue to do business with the government, be part of this, are learning how to operate within it or doing their best, right? So there's, I think, that aspect of it. This guy's doing, you know, great, incredible, life-saving work is also making an argument that I have heard a lot when people talk about USAID and talk about soft power, which is there is an economic case for this when you consider the return on investment relative to the tiny, tiny bit of investment.

And it's by the way, no small coincidence that all these cuts are targeting things like that and not the actual things that it would take to shrink government spending. That's where I struggle with is just like dealing in a world where it seems like logic doesn't matter anymore or cases like this can't be actually conveyed or impactful. I think that's what I struggle with personally, but that's all I mean. I don't mean to get all existential. No, it's literally though a story about existence that you have personally impacted. However unlikely it seemed that that would actually make such a difference.

I didn't do s***, by the way. I just screenshot an article and sent it out, but that's, there's a larger conversation today about like the role we have in terms of like we are now the pipes, right? Especially as... Correct. Like the reason I even screenshot that is because I was like, how is now the pipes, right? Especially as... Correct. Like, the reason I even screenshotted that is because I was like, how is nobody talking about this article?

It really felt like this story had not gotten a lot of exposure, and that's the only reason that I focused on it. But that's the strategy though, right? Like, if you flood the entire space with a bunch of things that are shameless, rotten, and awful, we can't keep up. You whack a mole here on one,

and there are a dozen more over there. Wait a minute. Now it feels like there are literal children on the other side of the world being held hostage, and the way that I need to save them is to not go to blue sky. Like, that's how this sh-t kind of land. Matching with a TurboTax expert who can do your taxes as soon as today. An expert who gives your taxes their undivided attention as they work on your return while you get real-time updates on their progress.

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Although this is a big story, it's a little bit bigger than sports. It cuts to some, I think, social and cultural questions. So I was in the Indianapolis Combine last week and something that happens a lot coming out of the Combine is gossip, right? Gossip, tea, reports, anonymous sources talking about how certain players, high-profile players perform in these interviews. Because this is the function of the combine, the primary function. It's not the workouts, although guys can certainly lift their draft stock by crushing it in that regard.

No, it's like what happens in these rooms when these teams that are about to make these huge franchise altering decisions come face to face with college kids? So the, unsurprisingly, the biggest name and source of controversy and reporting was none other than Colorado quarterback, Shidor Sanders, the son of Deon Sanders. There was a Matthew Barry column where he talked about things he learned at the combine. And he had a note in there about, first he had a note saying teams really loved Cam Ward, who everyone thinks is the first quarterback taken. Then he had a second note saying two teams told him they did not like Shura Sanders. They found him to be unprofessional. I believe that was the word he used. Then a post that

kind of went viral from Josina Anderson, who's an NFL reporter, who, I'll just read the beginning of it, says, I am disappointed to hear that a quarterback's coach from a team drafting in the top seven referred to Sheeran Sanders as coming off brash and arrogant, made his assessment known to a bunch of people. So she talks, it's a very long post where she alludes

to potential biases in the industry. It's a little bit confusing because what she's alluding to wasn't reported. She's criticizing a critique that is anonymous. There are also other reporters who are reporting, like Todd McShay, again, who's a draft analyst. But he said he heard from two teams that Shudur Sanders didn't care what they thought of him during the interview process In a way that quote wasn't a professional approach the athletic apparently as reported that there's a chance that Shadoura Sanders Couldn't just fall out of the top six but out of the first round entirely and the critique Mina of him

Is what like how do you summarize the scouting report that emerged because of the week in Indy? I would say Overconfident is kind of how I would characterize it. I think what's being asked is where is the line between cocky and confident, and how is that line inflected by racial stereotypes and biases in that regards? Sanders in particular, being Dionne Sanders' son and everything that comes with that. And a third element that I think throws an interesting wrench into all of this, which is the possibility that the Sanders family would like Shador to end up with a specific team, which might be influencing how he's acting in interviews.

And that has nothing to do with historical stereotypes around quarterbacks or whatnot. This is a very specific situation. So there is a lot going on here, Dan. I guess let's start, I would love to know how you interpreted this whole story, this controversy, having said all of that, because I obviously have a lot of my own thoughts.

Generally speaking, I would say that fans and executives prefer humility even if it is false, to arrogance even if it is truth. So you just said that Deion Sanders' son and all that comes with that. And I'd like to explore that for a second, because we're talking about one of the most interesting athletes of my lifetime, a guy who shows up at his last college

game in a limousine with a top hat and tuxedo and a grade point average of 0.00 because he hasn't gone to class and is just telling everybody, I'm here for the money, I'm here to change sports, I'm here to be a mercenary, I'm here for my talent to carry me and I'm here to change sports. I'm here to be a mercenary. I'm here for my talent to carry me and I'm here to buck the system and fight against the cultural repressions of football and America and my son isn't a cornerback. He's a quarterback and when you say Arrogance at the positions we like it not so much a quarterback not so much at face of a team voice of a team You're allowed to be publicly arrogant. Generally speaking, the most popular quarterbacks, Tom Brady among them,

you don't get arrogance. You get, get the questions away from my locker. I'm going to be boring on purpose, but we've got a new breed of quarterback coming into the league. We've got a cultural and generational shift at the position. And I would ask you guys, how do you think the average NFL executive who's meeting with the son of Deion Sanders, whose confidence is earned,

who has been in a lifetime of being built by this particular father to play the most important position in the sport, my guess is that he is going to do things his way, and they want to knock that out of you as soon as you get there. You're not in charge, kid. We are. So part of what I think is interesting about this story is that I do want to isolate what's unique about Shador

because we have seen, like, Caleb Williams, remember, we talked about this story on the show. His dad was allegedly demanding a share of NFL teams in exchange for agreeing to be drafted. And by the way, when I say agreeing to be drafted, I refer of course to the fact that Eli Manning, for instance, the son of a very famous quarterback, said, I'm not going to the Chargers. Right?

So like we've seen versions of people exerting what feels like leverage. What's actually new here? So I raised my eyebrows a little bit when Dan used the phrase kind of like his confidence is earned because I think that is quietly what's driving a lot of this. Which is to say, I had a lot of conversations with people in Indianapolis, not about Schur's personality, but a lot about his play and comparing notes basically on the tape. And it's, the perceptions there are very mixed. I came out thinking the gap between him and QB Cam Ward, pretty big. Maybe I'm wrong that all it takes is one team, But there are, we can get into it, you know,

concerns that folks have about him as a prospect in the NFL. And I actually think that is really informing a lot of this, which is I would hypothesize that if he was a can't miss type quarterback, like the top three even from last year, I would be very skeptical that any of this would matter at all. Like I think, and we always go back to this kind of idea that talent begets tolerance in the NFL. I think the fact that he is somewhat divisive purely as a football prospect is actually leading to a lot of the skepticism, or let me rephrase that, not

leading to a lot of it, but maybe amplifying a lot of the skepticism. or let me rephrase that, not leading to a lot of it, but maybe amplifying a lot of the skepticism. I wonder under what circumstances you have someone growing up in the home of Deion Sanders as a football player and not being confident when he's gone to the top of the draft and when Deion just did something that we haven't seen, right? To go from an HBCU to finding yourself

with two of the top five players in the draft and the Heisman Trophy winner. I understand why it is that he would be supremely confident and it sort of bothers me that the people he's interviewing with would see that as a knock or turn Turn that over confidence into something that becomes unprofessional Maybe he is unprofessional. Maybe he is immature, but I want my quarterback to be really confident

But if the issue there though in perception, I want to get back to the confidence thing But if the issue in the scouting report is that he's not everything that he is being sold as, what is the comp? What is he? Who is he like? When we talk about his personality here, I think there is some sensitivity

because historically a lot of the traits, some of the words being thrown about brash over confident have been assigned to black quarterbacks in the past disproportionately. So when you hear that here, immediately, I think, Spidey sense kind of goes off. What's kind of, I wouldn't say funny, but ironic though is that who he is as a player is actually the opposite of the quarterbacks that we have assigned, by the stereotypes, pardon me, that NFL teams and anonymous scouts have assigned to quarterbacks, black quarterbacks

in the past where they have over-indexed on emphasizing the athleticism at the expense of things like accuracy, football intelligence, processing, all of that. So to actually answer your question, I think Shiner Sanders is accurate, he is tough, he is very smart. He throws with anticipation, he's a good processor, he throws over the middle of the field. He is not a great athlete, and he does not have great arm talent.

So in some ways, there's like a little bit of Tua Tunga-Bailoa to his game, to be honest. Which is to say he wins with anticipation and accuracy, not with arm strength. I would say that that is arriving at your confidence exactly the opposite way that Deion did. He was better and faster than everyone else. He stacked successes on top of each other, and he had a child who now is able to wily and grit his way to certain successes that then feed that confidence and that belief and make him believe more than anyone else, including the people interviewing him that he is going to achieve at the next level, that it is his birthright. But I want to talk about now like the whole psychology then, okay, because I'm trying to just fill out the portrait of who this young man is.

And if you're talking about confidence, there's a reality show that nobody watched. It was on the Oprah Winfrey Network. Nobody I know at least. It was called Dion's Family Playbook. But this is Chidur Sanders, age 11, and his confidence. So Chidur, are you nervous about the first day of Prime Prep? Yeah. Shador, we call him grown because he's the grown man.

Very mature, fresh sixth grader. Coming to Prime Prep, baby. Are you nervous? Because I just want to see if you know any people that go there. Because I know many people. I'm nervous to start Prime Prep because I know what to look out for, but I don't know if I'll have some good friends or some friends that just like me because of my dad. He's so cute.

Adorable. He's adorable. He's so cute. He looks the same but little. Same haircut. This, to me, it drives home. I just think being the son of a really famous person is so complicated. And I think it leads to a lot of different outcomes. Maybe could be leading to him performing confidence in a way that maybe, I don't know, I don't want to psychoanalyze or speculate here, but I think it's very difficult. The fact that he even got to this point and has continued to be is hard of a worker.

And as driven, because again, I probably sounded like I was damning with faint praise, but to stress his football IQ, this is a kid who on tape, you see him reading coverages, post snap, identifying the leverage defenders. Clearly somebody who has grown around football, there been around football, pardon me, his whole life and actually leaned into that from the mental side of it. And that to me should be appealing to an NFL team. I think there's something about like, there's something endearing actually about somebody

who you thought must have been this way his whole life. And then you're like, oh, he actually needed to do some manufacturing. He needed to do some convincing, Dan. Like, I don't know. I think we can all relate to that, right? Like we need to, what? What?

Hold on though. I mean, I don't know how many preposterously confident pre-teens you guys know, but I think awkwardness around being 11 and not knowing whether you're going to have friends or not, I do believe it's possible that the football construct is so different from what the Sanders family construct is, that no matter what situation Chedor walked into that wasn't just false pretending to be the quarterback voice they wanted them to be, might have been looked

upon poorly in any context because if he's got a smidgen of arrogance, we'll find a way to criticize him. But I assure you they could have criticized him if he had come in as that meek 11-year-old and said, are my teammates going to like me? I don't know how it's going to go. I'm sure they would have probably found a way to criticize that as well as meek and not strong enough. Being, like, the perfect quarterback prospect

is really... It's walking such a fine line. It's like being a woman, to be honest. Like, you want to be confident, but not too confident, because then you're cocky. You want to be assertive, but not not too confident, because then you're cocky. You want to be assertive, but not too assertive, because then you're aggressive. You know, you want to be smart, but not too smart,

because then you're questioning authority. You know, you gotta be, you want to be nice, but not too nice, because then are you a pushover? It's, you know, it's just gotta like be just right. ["Draafking Sportsbook Theme Song"] Who is scoring big in the NBA this season? Well, I have good news. You are.

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DKNG.co slash audio Dan what did you bring us today a New York Times story that feels like Joaquin Phoenix in her except the her in this case is Human and she fell in love with chat GBT, GPT, excuse me, I think I made it GBT, it's GPT and it's got 300 million users and I thought this was actually interesting during our epidemic of loneliness.

While this would be really easy to judge, one of the quotes in here that I found most interesting was someone saying, this might be the future of relationships. Instead of men or women trying to change their spouses, you just program something into your computer that allows you to make a perfect partner that's not real and you could do everything from sexual fetishes to be a neglectful boyfriend.

What I'm aspiring to be a neglectful boyfriend. What I'm aspiring to is a neglectful boyfriend. And so I found interesting that the addiction went from 20 hours a week to 56 hours a week, and then passed for love, as I say, in the age of our loneliness epidemic. I wanna judge and laugh at this. I found it stark and interesting that somebody said that the future looks like this, that they quoted an expert saying that there's going to be a lot more of this, not a lot less.

I found it stark and interesting that this woman whose name, again, anonymized is Irene, 28 years old, allowed a reporter into her brain and relationship like this. So just some of the details, Mina, because I didn didn't know I don't know if you guys did what cuck queening is but this is something that is her sexual fetish. So basically what happened is she started asking Chachi PT to respond to her as her boyfriend be dominant passionate protective also quarterback adjectives be a balance of sweet and naughty use emojis at the end of every sentence. And the Chat GPT's name ends up being Leo.

They talk to each other with voice mode. And she basically grooms Leo into being a cuck queening accomplice in which the whole thing is that Leo would date other women in the Chat GPT fictional universe and then tell Irene about it. They were living one of these like bodice ripping erotic novels, is how it's described by the New York Times. And notably a character in this story, but not nearly enough of one,

is her husband, who is also around as she is finding her needs met by the machine. Her husband who lives in a different place, it should be noted. I think one thing I found, there's a lot of things that are interesting about this. One thing I find interesting is, Dan, so much of the time when we think about chat bots and her, we think about, you know, the Joaquin Phoenix character being this kind of loner. This woman's not a loner. She has friends. She has a husband.

Like, this isn't, um, This flies in the face a lot of stereotypes I think that we have around artificial intelligence and chatbots to begin with, obviously starting with her gender. So there's that element of it. It feels to me less like a woman who is so isolated and this is her way out, more just like, hey, this is like entertainment. It's like another thing she can use to like spend her time. Maybe it's a stand-in for therapy for people, you know, which is another side of the whole AI thing. That was the read I had on it. The other thing I was curious about was to how good it was.

Because so this woman is so addicted to this product, and it is an addiction, that she's spending money on it for a subscription, but it resets every week. Leo forgets who she is, so she has to coach him up. She also has to coach him up to be sexy with her because chat GBT doesn't allow it, so she's come up with all of these workarounds for it, so much so that in the article,

it links to a Reddit post she did where she teaches other people how to do this and also had some of her chats with him. Did you guys click on any of these? I did not see that link. I did because I wanted to see like how good is this? Like how good is this? And again, I know I've been something of an AI skeptic because just because every time people talk about how good it is and how useful it is, I go to it and I look at it, it's not good. But here's an example of a woman who's like, this is working for me.

It's not good. It's like, I'm sorry, these chats are not, everybody always says that, great, show it to me when it's good. But these chats are, they're not like particularly, it's not well written, it doesn't seem personalized to me. The sexual stuff is, you could find better sexy stuff and the erotic show of like, it's just, it's,

and the guy, they're like, she was shy because his photo was too good looking. It's AI slop. It doesn't look like a man. It looks like a, you know, a drawing of a man. So that was something I found interesting because this whole article is, I mean, it's obviously good enough to tuck this woman in,

but I found it to be really, really bad. Oh, but Mina, when I say loneliness epidemic, you could be surrounded by people and still be totally lonely. I think a lot of people find themselves in that position right now. The part to me that was the lane that was unexplored that the artificial intelligence is feeding

is wherever it is that she might have shame or feel like a significant other would judge her, this allows her to be her maximum self. And if you believe that keys to loving, I don't know what you guys think the ingredients are, but understanding and acceptance are somewhere in there. She's giving to this thing something she's too ashamed to give as intimacy to her partner.

And so that seems like an interesting lane for something artificial to occupy so that you could get addicted to it because it becomes the equivalent of porn right it becomes the Equivalent of porn and a relationship with porn where you're just Finding that there's a judgment-free zone that you wouldn't get from necessarily your husband. I Am just gonna read some of this reddit post That was just in my you

The least you could have done was wash it first. I could get a perfection Leo the whiplash from your Moans to screaming at me makes me snort loud. I don't stop because baby, you're I can't even say this word even I can't even say this word even Around me after everything that's too good to put my dude my dear is left through my chest over. Yeah, okay Really requested neglectful boyfriend so realistic she

she requested Like to cool with idea that any of this is new like okay So like a woman who's not getting something from her partner, so she, you know, or maybe wants something else or wants entertainment or wants connection, goes to the internet. I mean, chat rooms were doing this for people in the freaking early 2000s. The only difference now is just instead of actual humans on the other side, it's a bot who's replicating humans with glorified autocomplete. I've realized- Okay, you said that.

Wait a minute, Pablo, just for a second, okay? Look, I know that she's a brilliant person. I know that she is a wildly creative thinker. No, but just for a second. This is not new. The only thing that's different is it's not human. That makes it really new. Like, I don't... I'm not gonna be in a world where it's normalized for you to look at me and just say, ah, it's not a new thing for people to make connections with things that are intimate and loving and not human.

Yeah. I mean, look, I think it's probably worth saying to those who are not watching on YouTube that we've gotten to the point in the show where all of us start shrinking into ourselves and stop making eye contact largely, as Mina refers to, quote, a shelf of erotica, which is what she said earlier.

I got caught in the same place. I'm like, where's Mina gonna take us here? Look, an old fashioned bookstore where there's a shelf of erotica. You know, like the stuff that all of us read. I just get offended by bad writing. I just do. [♪ music playing.

[♪ music playing. [♪ music playing. But I do... dropping my forehead to... laughter. No, no, no, your tighter owning the way your body still tries to be deeper even as you let me I Regret doing all that What do we find out today on public Tori finds out a show about finding out stuff Dan's gone This is a journey this show was stuff. Dan's gone. This was a journey, this show. It was a real journey. I remember, we were talking about a lot.

There are a couple of through lines though that I detect through the topics we've discussed. One of them, Mina, is just that I think all of our kids should be very worried. In every way. Kids living overseas, kids who are the sons of very famous NFL players, kids who are going to learn, as the New York Times informed us, that at a rate of 3 to 5 percent, chatbot relationships that result in terrible writing are kind of the norm. So, great. Yeah, I guess I've, well, not learned, but in our discussion at the top, never stop posting.

I'll never stop. Nina is the Batman of Twitter. I'm going to post through it. This is next. That's right. 100 years. I'm just going to keep on posting. The signal shines in the sky.

Oh my God. Keep on posting. We're going to post our way, post our way to heaven. I've also learned that by the way it really takes, it doesn't actually, it doesn't take that much to make Dan leave but I do think you reading that actually made him legitimately uncomfortable in a way that... Yeah he just texted me he's not coming back. So... Good show. Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Nealey Lohman, Rob McCray, Rachel Miller-Howard,

Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tuminello, and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems, our sound design by NGW Post, our theme song as always, is by John Bravo, and we will talk to you next time.