The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - PTFO - Share & Tell with Katie Nolan & Dwayne Johnson's Friend Ariel Helwani

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

Why did Ariel Helwani, our planet’s leading combat sports reporter, use ring girls as human shields at a televised Logan Paul melee? What video game is Katie Nolan mostly living inside? Do you remember the time The Rock actually broke the news that Osama bin Laden had been assassinated? And more. PTFO-approved content: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/shams-charania-nba-insider-the-athletic-new-york-times-profile.html https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2023/10/16/were-more-ghosts-than-people/ https://arielhelwani.substack.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Pablo Tore finds out I am Pablo Tore and today we're gonna find out what this sound is I don't know what feathering your boost button means. I just know that someone out there heard Katie Nolan say that And like it and liked it way too much. Yeah, yeah, and shut out to that lady Right after this ad You're listening toaffe King's Network. This is where I want to start because Ariel Helwani, who is playing sick, playing hurt, and we thank him for doing this, is not in person with me and you, okay? Yeah, yeah.

There's no chance that's real. What? What's what's I feel bad that you feel bad physically? I feel good that we can now interrogate him about the real thing I want to find out today, which is what the. That's a green screen. Right? That's a green screen.

That's fake. It's too many books and they're too small. They'd have to be very far behind you. It's not the screen screen. Look the way I'm moving. Yeah. That's not a green screen. What's that little light screen. Is it does?

What's that little light flare off your left shoulder? No, it's just because I have, is there one that you want me to pull out? I'll be happy to pull it out. Yes. I get the dialogues of Plato. I see it over there hiding. Okay. Just one second.

Oh shoot, it's real. I'm convinced. Oh my God, that's an actual one. Wow. Look at all those books. It's a very smart person book too. And you've read all of them, I assume. This might be the best thing that I got

from working at ESPN. It's just, it's a TV. Sick. It's not a great screen. Wait, but this is the question I have. This is the question I have. I was just then killed me right here. Yeah, I told you I saw this.

It is a reflection. If you're not watching on the draft of Nevercore YouTube, there's a clear reflection from Ariel's window, beautiful window, the sunlight up New Jersey streaming in. But those books, like whose books are those? Yeah, where'd you get that picture? How would you pick those books? What's the backstory on the book?

It's a great question. A question that no one's asked me. Actually, one time I was on sports center towards the end of my time there, and the freaking screensaver went on. No cap, Jay, as the kids like to say, no cap right here. Come an event. I'm more excited about the Come event. As my screen goes out behind me, my entire life has just been exposed.

It's a complete fraud, Jay. Can you believe this? That was very. Oh, that's very funny. Very embarrassing. Very funny. Flying toasters. I like being like a warm library.

I was looking for something homey. I looked at like pictures of libraries and whatnot. Now this, this a warm library. I was looking for something homey. I looked at like pictures of libraries and whatnot. Now this, this is a library. That's the thing that I can't even believe anyone would think this would be in my house. Look at what he books this is. There's no like deceptimal system. I don't see any numbers or tape on the.

If you look very closely, there's a lot here. Oh, okay. So I just found the right picture that matches, I think, my skin tone, my hair, my eyes, everything. It really does. It just kind of fits. It feels like it's my little universe. So I don't really appreciate you guys breaking K-Fa,

best of saying the wrestling business. We could have just ignored all of this. Sure, maybe you have to, maybe you should frame out the bottom of the TV there. So we could not, it wouldn't be obvious. I'm a little bit off my game. How's that? It's crazy that you have it so that it wouldn't be obvious. I'm a little bit off my game. How's that? It's crazy that you have it so that it has to be perfectly set.

Or it's, I just like how the guy who's the best foremost MMA expert in the world is like, you know what? My audience needs to know that I love books. I read, I read quite a bit. So I bring on Ariel Hellani for many reasons. He is the foremost authority on MMA and all sorts of things that I don't understand. Also because I've been obsessed, what I bring to the table today in this episode of Share and Tell, is this video that I watched from my couch of Ariel on a stage in between Logan Paul and Dylan Danis.

And I wanna get to the genre of what they engage in these days because that's a bigger picture topic. But the micro of this is just this press conference that devolved very rapidly, and which Ariel was ahead of seemingly before anybody else if we can watch that clip. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. So this is Logan Paul, like a underhand shucking, a bottle of something at Dylan Danises. A prime, I assume. A prime resume.

A sum, it's prime. And Katie, where'd you say that that struck Dylan Danis? In the penis. Hit him in the penis. Right in the penis. That's what it looked like. It was below the belt. Yeah.

And then Dylan Danis, Ariel, how would you describe what you saw because he takes his microphone and then does what? Yeah, well, I didn't see all of that because as you can see in the clip, I got the hell out of it. And a lot of people were making fun of me. I'm like, yeah, you think I want to get like, if there's another angle, if I would have stayed exactly where I was originally, I would have been pelted in the head with a water bottle. Yeah. So I'm totally okay with being the scaredy cat who goes off. I actually thought I was very calm, cool, collected about it. I just like said, you know what? I'm

out of here. Walk there to the left. I do think you did a little bit of hand stuff that was. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no If you roll the tape back, I'm fixing my IFB. Look, I'm fixing my IFB and then he hits me.

But this, that's why I did that. Had I not been fixing my IFB in that moment, I would have never done that. I would have been unflapable in that moment. And then you went to, I feel like, I was here, and then went to here and that's called good defense. That's really still right there. That's the defense.

So, Ariel is shoulder rolling as soon as that water bottle flew across the stage. Thank you for that problem. That said, the other verb I'd use is a scamper. There was a scampering. Scurrying. It felt like Ariel, you've done this before though, the face off, the press conference before a fight.

And you had veteran savvy about where you wanted to not be, I guess. Yeah. I want to know nothing. I'm not fighting. I'm not courageous like them. I want nothing to not be, I guess. Yeah. I want nothing, I'm not fighting. I'm not courageous like them. I want nothing to do with any of that. And these two guys have had their moments in August. They had a press conference and cake was being thrown and water bottles were being thrown

back there too. I want nothing to do with any of this. I just want to go there, do my job, come home to my family. There's no, there's no, like, there's no part of me that wants to be a hero and say, I took a water bottle to the face. So people are making fun of me for getting out of the way. I wish I got out of the way quicker. I went to hide behind the ring girls.

So like, that's how, that's how I wanted nothing. I was like, there's no way they're gonna throw anything at them. So let me just hide behind. I have no problem with a total coward as well. It's amazing. Human shields. Yeah, you're that guy in the movie that takes the woman and it's like, no, no, ticker, not me. Yeah, yeah.

Like George Costanza when there's a fire in the apartment, he's like shoving it all over the old people. That was me. And I am totally okay with that. But to answer your question, though, Pablo, he took a microphone and he nailed Logan in the head with it, Dylan did. And then he cut him open and it was very unfortunate because, you know, there's an actual fight that needs to happen on Saturday. So for a minute there, I was looking at the executives, they look like, you know, they had the fear of God in their eyes because now I've seen this multi-million dollar fight was potentially up

in smoke because of this hijinks. In the end though, it didn't matter, everyone was okay. But that's some scary stuff. Well, I wanna follow up on that framing because this is a thing that had millions upon millions of dollars on the line. It's real big business now. And he also pointed out that you as a professional want to do professional things. You want to go show up, do your job, and you doing your job at like what do we call this genre

now? Ariel, this was a professional boxing fight, but this was Logan Paul, YouTuber influencer versus Dylan Danis, who Katie, I don't even know if you know who. I have no idea who that is. So please explain, what the f***. Okay, so Dylan Danis is actually an incredible Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. He's a black belt, he's had great success

in the BJJ world. Then he met a guy named Conor McGregor and his profile grew a lot and he sort of adopted some of Conor's persona. He's only had two MMA fights and they were very low level fights for an organization called Belator. But his last fight was in 2019.

He suffered a serious knee injury. He's been out for a while, but he's really good at his like being a crap talker. He's a troll. And anytime there's something on like any major Instagram or Twitter account about the Paul Brothers, he would always be talking crap about them, that he would beat them up, that he would knock them out, et cetera, et cetera. He was scheduled to fight a guy named KSI, who was in the main event of this event, whose Logan's business partner in prime, who's a huge deal in England in January.

He pulled out a week before. At that point, his Q-rated couldn't have been lower. Everyone was like, oh my god, Dylan, like you talk all this crap, you didn't even show up to fight KSI, the rapper, like you couldn't even fight that guy, you're not a real fighter. Logan now, WWE wrestler, killing it all over the place,

he's making a ton of money, he says he wants the box, he picks Dylan. When I heard about this, I actually saw Logan at an event in August and I said, why would you pick Dylan? His Q rating is so low, why are you giving him this platform he's like i it's an easy fight bubble buff what ended up happening was dilland being the troll that he is took his trolling into overdrive and ended up

really picking a fight with dilland's fiance a woman by the name of nina and went on this two month like onslaught this is where i i i noticed it was that my algorithm again feeding me this man? It was insane. War on former SI swim suit model and you know, tabloid I guess like sub character Nina Agdahl. And I know that name.

And it got, I mean, Ariel, like how extreme did it feel relative to your expectations for all of this? No, it got way too personal and it was gross and he gained 800,000 followers on Twitter and all this stuff. Like people, what ended up happening though, initially when this fight was announced, I was like, oh, I get it. I get it now.

Logan's trying to knock out the guy that everyone hates to troll online. And let's be honest, Logan is polarizing and there's some people who hate him and now they're gonna love him. But what ended up happening was that Dylan became the baby face guys. Baby face is the, of course, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

And what ended up happening was all these people on Twitter who are maybe sad, depressed, can't get a girl. I don't know what it is, started cheering him on to harass this poor woman who had nothing to do with this even more. So he would post these pictures and videos and it was getting really ugly. Now she's suing him and it's just like it's turned into this whole thing and it got way too personal. But what ended up happening was it drew a lot of eyeballs and a lot of attention to the

fight. Yeah. And so when we got to Manchester last week, it felt like that was the main event. It wasn't, but it felt like it wasn't the main event. It wasn't the main event. It was the co-main event. It was the second to last fight, but it felt like Logan was gonna rip his head off and who could blame him?

It became very, very personal. Ariel to your point, right? Like what this did was promote the fight. Oh yeah. I mean, the juice that I love, I love combat sports boxing specifically because humiliation, ego, the ruining of a man's sense of self is on the line

This one it just felt real like the enmity the stakes were that real and so what happened? Okay, so it was really real and it's interesting that you bring up humiliation because that ended up playing a big factor in how the fight went The fight ended up being a total bust because what happened was Dylan Danis who hasn't fought in four years spent the first two rounds like this he didn't throw a single punch in fact he only landed nine punches throughout the entire six round fight when I was watching and I was commentating for his own I said you know what I understand what he's doing he's trying to tie her out Logan Logan's got big muscles he's not a you know a professional boxer so maybe he's trying to let him you know unload everything and then he'll pour it on,

come the third and in fact his coach confirmed that that was a game plan. The problem was at the end of the second, Logan actually rocked him. And I think Dylan then in his mind said, I'm not going to get humiliated by this guy. I'm not going to get knocked down, I'm not going to get knocked out. I'm going to get a moral victory and say that I survived his best shots. And I'm not going to put myself in any kind of harm or trouble to potentially get knocked out by him. And then he took a one step further and just wanted to create like a moment, a viral moment, a meme, if you will.

So he tried to like get him in a guillotine, he tried to do a take down, he tried to do stupid stuff, but in the end he only kind of really embarrassed himself and didn't end up doing anything of note. And then at the end when it got all crazy, Logan's bodyguard jumped in the ring and it turned into a huge brawl. Again, long enough winning via DQ. It was kind of a mess. It was a bit of a sham.

Who's the governing body of this fight? It's a great question. This is a great question. So this was under an umbrella, like an organization called Misfits Boxing. Now this is fascinating, guys, because Misfits is this boxing organization that is owned by KSI and a guy named MAMS Taylor, who is once big in the music industry. And I couldn't believe, I never been to one of their events, but to answer your earlier

question, Pablo, is this? It's not boxing. You cannot call it boxing. It's sort of like, you know how professional wrestling has the word wrestling in there, but it really has nothing to do with collegiate or Olympic wrestling. It's crossover or influencer boxing. You must always call it that crossover influencer box. It's a whole different thing, but you know what blew me away? I didn't know that. I went there. I went, I was at tank Garcia in April in Las Vegas. I was at Spence Crawford. Real real real boxers. Right. But come the combing event those nights. There

probably wasn't a thousand people at T-Mobile Arena. No one was in the arena. No one cared. On Saturday and Manchester before the first fight and I think that there were a total of 11 or 12 fights on this card before the first fight, it was probably 60 to 70 percent full. Before the first fight on the main card, six fight main card, it was 100 percent full. You don't see this in anything but the UFC. And where this was different than the UFC was, I couldn't believe how many young kids were there. It was more of a WWE crowd than a UFC crowd.

There were 10 year olds, 11 year olds, 12 year olds with their dad. And so what I try to explain to my audience who gets so upset when they see this stuff, this is a sham, this is an example that boxing is dead, blah, blah, blah. This isn't for me, this isn't for you, Pablo, this isn't for the traditional combat sports fans. It's for me. It is a massive audience of young kids that love this stuff. And they know all the characters and they're obsessed with them from top to bottom.

And they know their stories and they subscribe to them on YouTube and on TikTok and all this stuff. It's a whole other universe that we don't know anything about and it was just fascinating to witness it all. But the idea that we don't know anything about it, I do want to challenge you on that because it feels like the reason partly why it's so successful is because the skillset, Ariel, the skillset of how to celebrate, how to create Jews, how to create that crackling sensation of like, man, I wonder what happens, what happens in this fight we're about to see. It feels like the comment section or the Twitter thread,

the world of influencer YouTubers is such a natural farm system for at least that part of combat sports, right? The promotion of it. It is. And it uses those elements of, oh, I like this guy. I hate that guy. I'm emotionally invested in this guy. I want to see this guy beat his ass.

I want to see this guy lose. But ultimately, like, they're not pro boxers. Right. It's all sizzle. There's no stake. Doesn't it feel like it's once it gets down to the fight, there's never a fight that you're like, wow. What? Well, actually, to be fair, some of them were good,

but I would just never, they were novices. It was like seeing like, there was one fight on that card, which was crazy, but I have to admit, for what it was, was entertaining, was tag team boxing. It was like tag team wrestling. I don't even know what. What? Two on two.

It was two on two with one guy standing outside. Like, they are trying to redefine this role. So they have the name it. I think they have to name it something. I think it has to be called a crossover box. They should call it celebrity death match. That was a good show back in the day. I think the claimation, Judge Mills Lane.

Yeah. I just think that like, I don't know celebrity in the definition of the way they use it on TV when it's a show of people, you know, like celebrity. Every celebrity. Yeah. It's Katie Starris into the camera. No, but it just feels like, um, it doesn't bump you out at all. I know you said there's young kids and that it's for them. It's not for us, but it doesn't make you go like, Hey, this was a real thing.

And now in this time, when clearly the boxing landscape and fight sport landscape is changing, what's like show time is now out of the game. Yeah. Doesn't it make you get a little bit like don don't you worry, don't you worry that somewhere Jeremy Shap is weeping area. Just like look, the idea though, to Katie's point though, the idea of like we're over indexing on sizzle and we're selling stuff and it reminds me of like truly

the problem sports faces macroeconomically and macro culturally, which is, wow, all these people are talking about this on social. But how do we actually make this into like a product? And it feels like here, they're at the very least getting people to want to know it's in the box, right? And I just wonder, is that sustainable?

Does this feel like a real business that you'll be covering for a long-ass time? No, no, no, no. This is not, you know, there are actual people that cover this, this is their beat, this is not my beat. I kind of pop it in out when there's like a connection to the MMA, you know, traditional combat world, Dylan D'Annes MMA fighter, etc., you know, when Jake Paul fights an Anderson Silver and eight Diaz, like that's my world crossing over.

But I'm not going to cover Miss Fitz-Eleven there next event next month because it just, it doesn't do it for me and there's enough MMA and boxing and other things to cover. It doesn't bump me out, Katie, and I'll tell you why. Because I don't feel like boxing is in the gutter, like people like to think it's in the gutter, say it's in the gutter. In fact, boxing has had one of its best years in recent memory

with the likes of Tank Garcia and Spence Crawford and Canelo coming over and having his big fight just a couple of weeks ago and there are big fights to come, Haney Prograin December. Like, I could go on and on about boxing. And so it's just how do you want to deal. It's like, it's almost like talking to someone who writes for a major newspaper and say, doesn't, doesn't Twitter bum you out. Does it bum you out that people just want things in bite-sized form? Like, this is just a sign of the times. But this is why this specific sport, if we're calling it that, with scare quotes. Why it's so fascinating?

It's because here you can see on some level, you can get the guilty pleasure of like, well, yeah, I'm gonna click on this highlight of this guy getting his ass beat because I also know that guy to be a s*** the person based on all of his documented behavior in ways that are real and legally troubling and worries some for the future of, I don't know,

the American conscience as regards like, how do we treat women? And there I'm just like, on some level though, Ariel, I imagine a click is a click, right? Like this is sort of the, we will take all eyeballs, philosophy of how to promote something. Yeah, and that gets the most amount of eyeballs, but I could tell you, like there's a main

event in the UFC this weekend involving a guy named Alex Wolkenovsky who's like the type of person that I want my kids to be a fan of, who's a father of three, who his biggest vice is that he likes to, you know, cook chicken wings and put like cheetos around it or something like the guys like a salt of the earth men. You know what I mean? So there's enough out there that's good and wholesome in the fight game. You just have to find it and unfortunately those people typically don't make the big bucks.

Don't get the attention and don't get people, you know, all crazy going, oh my God, this is a, this is, this is an indictment on the state of the fight game. It's not, there's always gonna be crazy characters, there's always gonna be good guys and bad guys, and it's just up to you to find the ones that you wanna root for. It's sort of like, you know, Tim Duncan was just like a soft spoken dude, right?

And there are some people who appreciated that, and then there were other people who just, you know, like the bad boys, more. Oh, Ariel, Tim Duncan would be a terrible influencer. Oh, he would be terrible, yes. But you know, you know, you know, like the bad boys. Oh, Ariel, Tim Dunn can be a terrible influencer. Oh, he would be terrible. Yes. But you know, you know, it would be better. I have solutions oriented.

Yeah. These guys should cover themselves, but Tim Dunn can end this gentleman by the way, champion of the world. Alex Volkanovsky should walk into the ring covered in Cheeto dust. Dunn. Love that.

He's so good. Try to lay a hand on him, try it. Try your best. Yeah, yeah, then go home and touch your couch. See how that fell. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes.

Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes.

Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. Don't touch your eyes. All right, so now that we've talked about something, you know Ariel that I knew nothing about. I feel like I should do my story, which is something I know that you know nothing about, which is video games based.

And now I think a lot of people, I know and we're gonna get to that. I feel like a lot of people have negative opinions of video games. I think they're frivolous, they're time-waisters, but I read an article in the Paris Review. Now that is a publication that I only remember to check when a smarty-like Pablo sends me a link and says,

did you see this in the Paris Review? That's right. And I read this really long, detailed think piece, and maybe you can put somewhere who wrote it because I do not remember. Yep. And I wanna make sure they get credit. Hanif Abdul-Rakib.

Yes, about the great writers. Yeah. Relationship with Red Dead Redemption, which is a video game you and I actually have experience with playing together. A lot of experience. Remember the time we during the pandemic, we both played Red Dead Redemption multiplayer area. I'll sit this one off for a second.

We both got on two different courses going parallel. I think we talked so many times, it's worth it every time. And without communicating to each other verbally or otherwise, there is a move you can do in the video game where you steal someone else's horse by jumping onto it. We both try to steal the other person's horse simultaneously and executed like a gymnastic routine. It looks like synchronized swimming. It was like we jumped, we just switched horse.

Airyl is horrified. He has no idea why we're so excited about this. It was amazing. Also, Hubble's whole thing at Red Dead was like, can I punch this horse? And you would just keep punching your horse. I was the Logan Ball of Red Dead Redemption. But this article, again, in the Paris review,

basically talked about how during the pandemic, and then since, because I do think in the post-pandemic world, we look at life differently. Basically how the video game taught him about life and taught him about death and about the ways that we try to control what we can control and we try to do this complicated moral math of how we can end up redeeming ourselves in the long run. It's very good and I recommend everybody read it, but it made me see, it kind of helps, whenever you're a video games person,

you get very happy when somebody legitimizes the thing you love and then you point to it. And you go see, it's for smart people and it's helpful. And for me, I mean, video games are a big part of my life, but I think socially during the pandemic, just to speak to that aspect of it, the ability to play video games online with people anywhere. So my brother who had moved to Chicago at the beginning of the pandemic,

I now spend more time with him than I ever did. Because every night we play video games together. Every night, around the same time, we get on a headset with a group of people and we play whatever we feel like playing. But it has given me like a social aspect that I think without that, I would not, I'm not going to Chicago all the time. What, what, what, what are you calling them on the phone?

I want Ariel to begin to imagine what the activities, though, you're doing with your brother, and I know your fiance Dan as well, as gamers. What games are you playing? Well, there was, we went through a group of, a stage of Call of Duty, there's still kind of on that, and there's a new one coming out that I have to decide if I'm going to get into or not. The thing with Call of Duty and not to get into it, I think they stopped doing this now, but every couple games was from a different developed, there were like two

developers, I don't know if developers are right word. I'm not smart about video games. I just play a lot of like a boxing commission, but for like every other one was made with a different engine, it was like whatever program differently. It worked differently. It felt different. And so there were like a couple that I would just skipped because they weren't for me. But now I have to check out this new, because it just feel, if you get real, I got really good at one of them.

I think it was modern warfare. And I got really good at it. And then the next one came out and I was garbage at it because it was just different. You moved differently. It didn't feel, it was too smooth. Cold war was too smooth for me. But anyway, they say about the cold war. That's right.

There wasn't enough. It wasn't gritty enough. But anyway, so we did a lot of call duty. Then there's, but the main one we go to is we do the rocket league tournament every year. Do you know how rocket league is, Ariel? Yes, I know about this. Isn't this like the robots that play soccer? It's cars. It's cars that play soccer. Oh, you know about this. Isn't this like the robots that play soccer? It's cars. It's cars

that play soccer. So, you know, the emissions irresponsible, but it's always the time, but far beat for me, a guy who likes pro wrestling to knock someone's. You just waste of time. Right. But this is, but this is where I am curious. I'm also a guy who owns an Xbox model. And a PlayStation. PlayStation five. Because I'm about to play the Spider-Man game. Which comes out this week. Yeah, so today. Oh, it's today. Oh, I gotta go down.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Spider-Man too. Ariel, I feel like you not liking video games, but liking all of this other stuff that is allegedly frivolous, allegedly unserious, allegedly beneath smart people. Allegedly. How did you avoid ever contracting this particular yeah interest. I mean, I liked you know, I was a big fan back in the day. I played

Madden. I played Mike Tyson's punch out in Nintendo all that stuff. But to spend three, four hours in front of a screen shooting people. I mean, I'm just a not I think when it comes down to is I'm not a violent guy. You do fight sport. Why do we do? I just heard that. What are we doing? I was hoping you do not. I was like violence, but the guy's really an energy drink at this guy's crotch and I was

there front row seat. I don't condone that behavior by the way. But in any event, I think ultimately what it comes down to is I'm just such a busy guy and I don't have time to play Call of Duty with my friends and you know California or Canada or anywhere around the world and on top of that In all seriousness, I it is a constant battle as as anyone out there who has young kids who have been exposed to iPads and kids who have been exposed to iPads and video games and Nintendo switches and things like that. It is a daily battle, a true battle, a battle that I don't think I ever presented to my

parents when I had an Atari or N64 or anything like that to try to get them to not do that, to do something else to play outside, to play in the basement with their siblings or whatever. So if I'm sitting there for three, four hours playing these silly games, what kind of an example of mine? Yes, I have good. I'm sorry. That's what you think though. You just don't have kids.

That's the prop where you guys screwed up as you procreate. But I as a procreator as the father of a daughter. Here we go. Who else owns a Nintendo Switch? Three and a half, five, three and a half. Crazy. Your daughter has an Nintendo Switch at three and a half. I have an Nintendo Switch that she is always asking to play

because I created it for her. The way they pick it up is scary. It is. So truly like the intuitive aspect of just how to manipulate any sort of tablet and or video game system is unnerving. Crazy. But I do want to point out that Ariel is talking about Nintendo Switch is the way like Bob Rye and talks about three pointers

Like you old ass man You all it's not for you. It's took quote you. It's not for you But this is but this is where I think Ariel. I'm so glad we're talking about this with someone who is not Again, immersed in open world video games because a part of what this article in the Pâri review. Le revie, Pâri. Quasel. What that article was pointing out was like, this is a game that of course has like this,

these existential themes, like the main character who you become. He has like a morality meter, where like the more good works you do, Ariel, you're an aspirational good guy, a baby face. He, the more good stuff you do, Ariel, you're an aspirational good guy, a baby face. He, the more good stuff you do, the more points you get. And the worst stuff you do, of course, like the different sort of consequences you encounter. But the other part about this game, which I find so interesting, is that it's open world

insofar as you can just, as the author points out, go and watch Sunsets. You can go to the Western side of the map. It's a beautiful game. It's beautiful. Not as beautiful as Ghost of Sashima, but also beautiful. It's just a beautiful game. It's a beautiful game in Samurai time.

Gorgeous. Fucking great. But you can watch Sunsets, Ariel, in an open world video game. And it's amazing. You can put your horses. Listen, I don't want to be one of those guys who's like, ah, you're way see your time.

I just kind, it's not for me. I kind of feel like it's a waste of time. And I feel like you're sitting there for, if you, if you told me you were someone who played it for 30 minutes a night, let's do the accounting here. Let's do the accounting here. Waiting to get into a lobby itself. I know. They do these things on call and duty words like, oh, a 30 minute double X P pass.

But once you activated it goes in real time. Then you have to join a thing, a lobby. Then you have to wait for the hundred other people to join the lobby. By the time you're in, you got 15 minutes left on your pass. It's, it is time consuming. Here's the thing, Ariel. I got a lot of time.

Here I am at not my job. Work it. Like I've got time. So I do spend a bunch of it playing video games. But I find got time. So I do spend a bunch of it playing video games, but I find them entertaining and also mentally stimulating and rewarding. And Ariel Hawani is doing what to de-stress. That's great.

Honestly, it's actually a bit of a sad question to ponder because I'm sorry to realize that I have no hobbies. There you go. What's so ever? My wife likes to watch these shows. I watch none of them with her. She likes to stay up at night and watch She know the she just finished watching Game of Thrones. I'm proud to say I didn't watch a second of it And don't I want nothing I want nothing to do with any of this stuff. Honestly, I just want to go to bed If I could go to bed I I'm very happy. If it's 9.30, I'm thrilled.

Yeah, I'm a bit of a loser. I guess you're a 9.30 guy. You're a 9.30 guy. If I could go, if I could go. Can I tell you what's my, you know what? I tell you what's my new favorite thing right now. Is it your favorite? Is it the candle you carry with you on the way to bed?

Am I warm? Warm cup of milk. My new favorite thing right now, and this isn't like a crazy answer or anything, but I've really fallen in love with soccer. I adore soccer. That's become like my escape. I mean, you love soccer so much.

What if Katie Nolan and I told you that you could play soccer, but as a car? That's true. You could fly through the air. I'm learning how to fly. I'm not very good at it. Rocket League has fly. that you could play soccer, but as a car. Oh, shoot, shoot. You could fly through the air. I'm learning how to fly. I'm not very good at it. Rocket League has fly. Yeah, so you get to a certain level where, I always say,

I'm a flightless bird. I do a lot of groundwork, but you're familiar with. Right. My ground game is strong. And so like, there'll be guys that are trying to fly and the ball will be up here and they'll try to fly it and they'll miss. And then who's waiting there for it?

Me, cut it in the net. That's right. But now I'm trying to learn how to fly and the ball will be up here and they'll try to fly it and they'll miss and then it who's waiting there for it me The cat is like a catfish, but now I'm trying to learn how to fly and it's very hard because you have to feather your boost button Which gets your card of it's a whole thing. I can show you Ariel. I can show you later No, I have no my kids played it like actually my kids who are 11 and 9 they've outgrown that game Okay, I know this feels mean this feels just no I'm just saying like I was like oh this is cool You like the robots hitting the ball great. I don't know what with it. I know what this feels mean. This feels just, the power's working. No, I'm just saying, like I was like, oh, this is cool. You like the robots hitting the ball? Great.

I don't know what feathering your boost button means. I just know that someone out there heard Katie Nolan say that. And liked it. And liked it way too much. A little too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And shout out to that lady. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, I see what you did there. I think too much screen time is ultimately bad for your brain, but it says a guy who is what

never on his phone. You want me to think you're never on your phone? It says a guy who's sitting in front of a giant screen with a screen behind him. Yeah, you are on a screen with a screen. You are in a screen sandwich, my friend. All right, we have, well guess what? What?

That's a great transition right there. Oh, there's that. Yeah, there are. Yeah, there are. Come on, yeah. Says a guy who's always on his screen. Yes, that brings me to the article that I wanted to present to you guys, a fascinating

profile on a young man named Sham's Charnia. Of course, every sports fan out there knows who Sham's is. He is one of the foremost scoopers, newsbreakers in the world of the NBA. There's only really two, right? There's him and Woj. It's a story in New York magazine and it's entitled Scoop Dreams, written by Reeves Widemen. And It's a story in New York magazine and it's entitled Scoop Dreams written by Reeves Widemen and it's a fascinating look at a young man who isn't even 30 years old and who has carved out quite the niche for himself. And the thing about this, I mean, there's a lot to unpack regarding this story. There's a part, look, I very much relate and sympathize to the story. If only because for a very long time people used to refer to me as the wage of MMA, meaning

I would break a lot of stories and some of those stories got me in trouble and I didn't want them out, blah, blah, blah. I have really removed myself from that world because it is intoxicating and it is like this never ending hamster wheel. And ultimately I felt like I was too obsessed with the phone, too connected to the phone, too obsessed with checking the phone in the middle of the night that I miss a scoop that I'm not miss a scoop. And life is too short for that nonsense.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, when did this realization hit? Because Shamsher Ali for the context of the story, which is really good in York magazine, he's talking about how his FaceTime average screen time a day is 18 hours. That's crazy. And that he sends more than 500 text calls and emails a day. I want to die. A day suffocating.

To compete, Ariel, to compete in the never-ending rat race of scoops and news breaking. Yeah. I don't think that's healthy, but he's a young guy, he doesn't have a family. And so I understand why he's doing it. I don't begrudge him. I was trying to do the same thing in the world of mixed martial arts for a very long time,

but ultimately to answer your question like a couple of years ago, I just felt like it was unhealthy, and I felt like it was just a never-ending cycle of, okay, you break this story, no one cares 10 minutes later and then it's on to the next one. And it just, it wasn't fun anymore. It was making me hate my job. And, you know, it made the UFC not like me and made other people not, and it's just like, this is not the way to be. And I would say it is, Shams, like he has obviously created a great lane for

himself. His whole relationship with Woj, I find to be very bizarre. Star Wars going on. Yeah, like mentor, pupil, betrayal, allegedly, don't talk anymore, all that. Don't credit each other and never reference each other. Don't acknowledge each other's existence. Like, there's nothing that seems healthy about that. No. But, you know, they're the only two. And I can't imagine 18 hours in front of the phone, speaking from a guy who, by the way, averages like 10 or 11, so I'm not, I can't be two, you know.

We're all up there. Yeah, we're all, we're all, we're all ashamed of our fires, green fire. I would never say my now loud. I didn't know if that was bad. No, it's, it is. It is bad. But we're all there together.

So we're not here to judge. He's on a different, I've stood in front of these, I won't name names, but I've stood in front of these quote unquote, newsbreakers. And they can't, they can't not look at their phone for more than a minute. I mean, you see them on TV, like in, in the NFL, like we were never from just being on TV as little as I have. You never have your phone out. But when you see Shepter, he has to have his phone out.

And sometimes he would get up and walk away to take, like they are con, they're just not addicted, but like they are tethered to their phones. I think it's addicted, but also incentivized. The other context for the story is that these are enormously profitable jobs. Like, Shep's doing this is not, he's not, he's not stupid. He's doing it because this is a niche that is increasingly valuable.

He gets paid a lot, a lot of money as does Woj even more. So as a chef to even more so. So the idea area of like, this is a way to do sports media. I read this story and I think to myself, I don't want any part of this job. It seems, and again, maybe that's a place of privilege because I have this weird studio that I sit in where I talk to Katie Nullen and pay her $0.

But it's amazing, it's amazing how little I envy the success story that objectively this is. Yes, you can make a lot of money, but let me tell you from experience and it was never at the level of Shams or Woj. It's a personal jail that you're living in because it's not just about breaking news this and that. It's a, you know, the relationships and, you know, it's trying to get, trying to beat

this guy and then the fear, sometimes I would break a story and my heart would be pounding so much. The fear potentially getting something wrong is truly terrifying. Now, I'm proud to say, still batting 1000 babies. Nice, buddy. Nice, no turnover. Not as easy as later. But I mean, I did see, I think one of the dudes

that we're talking about, did tweet that day and was going to Toronto and then deleted the tweet and you can't delete anything on the internet. And that looks like something. Yeah. Let me tell you something. That is not a good feeling. He must have wanted to crawl into a hole and never come out. It's just, it's unsustainable. And so for someone who is as young as him, it's great. I don't know how well it does it. And there's a reason why more people don't do it. It is truly unsustainable,

and I think an unhealthy and unhappy way to live your life. I feel like we're all, that my favorite meme on the internet is, and it's my favorite because I relate to it. Is the meme is the animated gif of that raccoon who's holding cotton candy, who then dips it into water, because that's what raccoons do with their food,

and then looks away for a second, and looks back, and it's completely dissolved. And it's just like, oh, this is what making content is. But the newsbreaker guys are that to the even more extreme extent. I think I would constantly be anxious that I'm being fed bad information in an attempt to change a narrative on something to help somebody save money on a trade, or I would always be worried that somebody was giving me bad information. I don't trust enough. You obviously have to double or triple check.

So that was a big thing, because people have their own agendas. But the thing that I don't get is like, okay, obviously, as you said, probably they make money off of it. But there are times where there are literally 30 seconds apart, with almost the same wording. It's almost like they there are literally 30 seconds apart. We're almost the same wording. It's almost like they're copying, basically the same.

So where is the joy in that? Well, we'll also like you. You put newsbreaker in scare quotes. I co-sign your scare quotes. It's absolutely an occupation that should exist. I have no, I'm not trying to get on a journalist a chai horse here, but just the comedy of everybody's trying to get ahead of a press release by five seconds., but just the comedy of everybody's trying to get ahead

of a press release by five seconds. That's the win. All you gotta do is be the nano second guy. Literally, the person in the comment section saying, first, that is the win. It's gonna come out. Nine-nine percent of the time. It's gonna get released.

You just gotta be the first guy with the tweet. And obviously there's a demand for it, like that we live in a world where it's okay to be on television being paid by your employer and it's more important to send something out on twitter as opposed to delivering that and for imagine water cronkite back in the day tweeting that jf k is dead as opposed to delivering into the world obviously it's not as important but it's just it's absurd to me that we've reached

that point now i'm not trying to be, you know, sanctimonious here because I used to kind of reside more in this world, but ultimately as a, like a, from a personal fulfillment standpoint, a cardiac standpoint. That too, I derive a lot more joy from getting big interviews, doing great shows, having a personality, things of that nature. And I would worry for Shams

because if he continues to do this, like it's just unsustainable, it truly is. And I don't think it's very healthy. Can we do the thing where we get real and comfortably invasive? Sure. And we, so he has 72,443 unread emails. Yuck.

So what we got, what you got Ariel? What you got? Right now, yeah, right now. Right now, let's go. Right this second, let's reveal. We're all gonna go around this. It's amazing that you're asking me this question. Right now, I have 57 and it drives me insane.

57. I have insane OCD. My goal at the end of the night is to get to zero. Oh boy, the people that you're amazing at. The screen would drive you crazy. I mean, I'm currently Gmail. I've I've I've managed this better. I'm currently at unread 3,282.

Wow, I couldn't live. What about you, Katie? Who's me? Oh, just at a cool 22,922. A lot of that is stuff like GrubHub being like, we've got your order and I just never open it or delete it. I try to, every day now I try to go through and I delete all the ones I don't need,

but there's like years of me not doing that that I, that, but the idea of, the idea of, keep your phone out, the idea of your phone as a prison. Mm-hmm. What are you in prison by these days? Group chat.

Group chats. Right. I am a, I mean, actually, if you wanna get specific, right now I'm in a group chat that involves people that are not on an iPhone, which means that you do not have the ability, you do not have the ability to click on the group and go leave this group chat. It's a present.

I am stuck in the group chat. The only way out is if I message the person who put me in it and specifically ask to be removed. You can't pull a parachute cord. No, because it's not just an eye message group chat. So I'm stuck, and the person who put me in it is like a person I don't want to make mad. And so I just mute it, and then I have these constant messages.

And they're just hard to keep up with. And then if you mute them and they're people you do want to talk to, like I read an article in something, Wall Street Journal? I don't know, I read a lot. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. talk to, like I read an article in something, Wall Street Journal? I don't know, I read a lot. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. About parents. The journal had an article about green hats.

Yeah, this may be relevant to you. I know you have children of parents in group chats and they're finding them suffocating of like other parents or of like the PTA or the, right. Does anybody know if we're allowed to bring peanut products to school, they're just constantly texting with these tiny questions. And they said they feel this need to scroll through them just to make sure nobody texted

about an emergency or nobody texted something specifically related to their child. And it's just these, I just think group chats are like, they're bordering on like taking over our lives. It's anxiety inducing and I'm not good at them. I'm not good at them. I don't, I don't need to, you don't need to talk to me every day. I don't have anything to update you on. I promise.

I'll let you know when I do or maybe I won't. I feel like, so Ariel is also Canadian. And I feel like you're politeness, Ariel. This is your inbox zero guy. I have a feeling that the way that you hold yourself to account is probably different than not for then me and Katie. Oh, I have to reply to everyone. Actually, would it noise me more about the story that you just told me was the fact that some people or one person isn't on an iPhone. I hate

the green textures. Yeah. The moment, the moment I see that someone is green texture, I feel like there's like a block between us. Like I can't fully embrace you. Like I feel like the waves of communication just aren't going to be as great as if I could see the dots. But then don't you feel itky because then you're basically saying that everybody has to be an Apple product user and then you just kind of feel like you're, but yeah, but it just feels like shouldn't people be allowed to use what shouldn't these tech companies get together and make it so everybody's blue can't they figure it out. But that's like some sort of utopia.

Yeah, I hate the text. If I make them more than I hate to have this. I prefer to go to WhatsApp. Do you know what's that? Yeah, I prefer WhatsApp. Yeah, I prefer WhatsApp. I know of it. Oh, you don't use it.

It's just another text message app. I don't need another text. I don't have that much to say. And if I do, I'll put it on a podcast. So you know what's interesting? Most of my group texts are on WhatsApp. Yeah. and in Europe Because you know, I cover a sport that is very European

They no one uses i-message. Yeah, there are some people don't know they only use WhatsApp So it's it's a whole different thing, but at least in WhatsApp you can't tell if someone is iPhone or Android or whatever so everyone looks the same on WhatsApp. I like that. So that's to your point, shouldn't everyone look the same? But if I get a new number, I don't do, I don't do Facebook. It's owned by Facebook. WhatsApp is owned by Facebook. Oh, it's owned by Facebook, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Shout out to my boy, Mark Zuckerberg. We're close now. I don't know if you guys know this. I bet. Big M and M. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you really are close now?

Well, close has been a little bit. Wait, so, just a number? We have, we have, we have, we have have we have we have we have on this show pop Dory finds out covered yes, Mark Zuckerberg and his MMA BJJ specifically like Dylan Dennis. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Um, he he's definitely an aerial He's a he'll want a guy no doubt if Zuck is into this sport. That is the face the Canadian inbox zero aspirational face of of his favorite media member. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm don't want that smoke. I'm sorry. Has Mark Zuckerberg texted Ariel Hullwani? Yes or no? Yes. Yes or no?

He wants to ask him. Text? No. Do we DM? Oh. And is he an incredibly fast DMer? I bet. Yes.

Oh. Have I asked him to come on my show to talk about his love of Mixed Martial Arts in Gidgeto? Of course. Yes. Has he said that he would like to come on? Yes. Yes.

Actually, the way I found out that he followed me was he commented on one of my posts, but I at the time wasn't following him. My friend was like, you realize that Mark Zuckerberg is in your comments. I was like, wow. Then one of the profiles was like, follow back. I saw the follow back. I was like, oh, that felt cool. And the fact that in them then and Ariel Helwan is

beleaguered heart was a flutter. Listen, I'm not a name dropper. These things don't impress me. Sure, you know, the rock and I text from time to time. But it's just because it just could be a way. It's not texting the way, way, way, way. It's gotta be the most important. It's just because Dwayne and I are purely dead. It has to be the most boring experience.

There's no chance Dwayne is putting on paper anything interesting. Dwayne and I are curious. It has to be the most boring experience. There's no chance Dwayne is putting on paper anything interesting. Uh, Dwayne is the man. Are you talking about the Earth? Yeah, but there's no way. Can you, can you, uh, can you go into your phone right now, Ariel? And just give us three words from any text exchange

you've had with Dwayne. Uh, this one popped up. You're a class act and chat soon. I'll just leave it at that. I'll just leave it at that. I mean, he said it right there. I have it. Wow.

You know, who might have disagreed with the class act? A class f***ing act. Yeah, I agree. Soon. Soon. Let's chat soon. We'll do it again soon. So, at the end here, Ariel, what we do at the end of public tour, I find out as we go around the table, Katie hates this part because it always catches us.

I'm ready this time. Oh, you are. Okay. We go around the table, Katie hates this part because it always catches my eyes. I'm ready this time. Oh, you are. Okay. We go around the table and we say what we found out today. We've shared a lot of things about ourselves and each other, um, invasively, publicly, and Katie Nolan, what did you find out today? I found out today for the fifth time, but hopefully this time I will retain it, that Jake

is the younger one. Logan is the older one. Jake was on Nickelodeon. Logan filmed something you shouldn't have filmed and put it on YouTube. Ask me that next week and I hopefully will still have it, but I don't think so. That is what I found out. That's a lot to retain. And that's all you. That's 100% coming from you. So thank you very much for giving me that information. Ariel, what did you learn? I guess I learned that I shouldn't be so negative towards video games that for hermits, it could be a great thing.

Had me and then he lost me. I was feeling my heart was warmed and then it went cold. For the anti-social, it could be. I don't leave my house. Leave in your house a stupid novurated. Come at me. You know, for the anti-social, it could be a nice way to interact with others, and I shouldn't be so negative towards people who spend four to five hours or so. Three, four. Three, four. Three to four, playing some fictitious video game, as opposed to as the kids like to say online, touch grass.

Wow. There's no grass, I live in New York City. So my options are scarce, and therefore therefore I played Zelda to 100% completion. Wow. You did. Yeah, the New Zelda. Yeah, I got all those corroxies every single one of them. There's a thousand, I believe. Yeah, I had a lot of time. Last question has the rock ever texted you about how he knew that Osama bin Laden had been assassinated before anybody else. Really? Is that a thing? Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know that. The rock tweeted out like a mysterious, very coy message about like, can't say what it is,

but great news for our country. God bless America. Yeah. It could be an American. Yeah. It could be an American. And it was in April, 21. And then like, minutes after we found out that Osama bin Laden was dead.

That's right. Wow. country God bless America. Yeah, it could be an American. Yeah, it could be an American. And it was, and then like, when he left, minutes after we found out that Osama bin Laden was dead. That's right. Wow. Yeah, the scoop. I didn't know that one. Yeah, he's good. You kids stay on the internet too long.

You're into these chat. This guy, this guy, I thought I was looking forward to hanging out with him. Just got word that will shock the world. That's land of the free dot, dot, dot, home of the brave. Damn proud to be an American exclamation point. You know who wasn't a class act? I was like, I'm a Latin. Assamabin Latin. Yeah. Yeah.

Not a Latin act. They would not chat soon. They would not chat soon. Absolutely not. And so we reached the end of yet another week at Pavlo Torrey finds out. And I want to point something out. David Samson, our arch nemesis, has something very nice about us on whatever the fuck we call Twitter now. And so I just want to point out that David, we appreciate you and we will never stop rubbing it in your goddamn face. How much we're finding out all of the time. Because of Michael Antonucci, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lomon, Rachel Miller Howard, Ethan Shryer, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan,

Chris Tuminello, Studio Engineering by RG Systems, post-production by NGW Post, and our theme song, of course, by John Bravo. We will talk to all of you next week.