The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - PTFO - Why a Soccer Super-Fan Taken Hostage by Hamas Is Still a 'Ray of Hope' in Israel

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

Hersh Goldberg-Polin was devoted to an Israeli football club fighting for peace. Supporters of its rival include far-right Israeli politicians like a national-security minister hellbent on war — and a racist mob. If you want help understanding the Israel-Hamas conflict, Hersh's abduction by terrorists is a window to the world. Correspondent Amos Barshad interviews his loved ones and finds a silver lining. (Read the companion article at The Lever) Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/R0IoouIfXNc Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Thank you for being here. Thank you for helping us report a story that is unlike any other story we have done on this show. I was hesitant to do this episode, not because I didn't think it was genuinely fascinating, but because I'm always mindful of the ways in which sometimes you know sports outlets they just want to shoehorn sports until like the serious news story Absolutely. And sometimes it just feels both flimsy and forced in terms of the connection that they're drawing This one though Does not feel that way to me I've reported on the way the sports and

Politics interact for a long time and just for me, as someone trying to understand the news, I've always felt like it's a way to get closer to the way people actually interact with the news, with this one, with Israel, and these soccer teams that we're going to talk about. It's just what was on my mind. OK, so this has been on my mind for a very long time now, this basic dilemma. What are we supposed to do on our show, which is technically a sports show, about the

biggest story in the world? We are a newsroom, I say this tongue in cheekly sometimes, and I wanted to actually think about how we're supposed to touch the thing that pretty much nobody, if they don't have to, wants to touch in public. And I get why. This is the most generous version of this motive, I suppose, but lots of people just don't know enough. It is a complicated story. It is sad. It is controversial in the most obvious ways. And so I get it. But I've been reading the work of Amos Bar Shod

for more than a decade now. Amos is a writer who is at Grandland, The Washington Post, The New York Times magazine, all these places. And he is now working for The Leather, an independent reader-supported news site at levernews.com, where you can go read a companion version of the story that we assigned Amos to report for us here today.

Because of all the topics he has covered, the one that stuck out to me, ever since I first read it, his reporting from there, ten years ago, was Israel. And specifically, it was about the Israeli government. And this administration, which is going to dictate which direction this current war goes next. Yeah, so I wanna set this scene here. When did you realize that the war between Israel and Hamas, which started, of course, realize that the war between Israel and Hamas, which started, of course, with the terrorist attack

on Israel by Hamas on October 7th? When did you realize that that was actually a sports story? Yeah, you know, at first the news was coming out and I was just trying to make sense of it and wasn't thinking at all about a way in for me. I have reported from Israel in the past, but you know, I live here in New York and was just reading the news trying to understand.

Hamas, Unleashed a ferocious attack over the weekend that seemed to come from everywhere, raining deadly rockets into residential streets and setting militant fighters across the Gaza border where they murdered and kidnapped Israeli civilians. Hamas is warning it will execute the hostages at kidnapped over the weekend if Israel continues to retaliate in Gaza. You know, there are moments in this life literally when the pure unadulterated evil is unleashed

on this world. It was a few days after that that I saw a video clip, a group of soccer fans ran through a hospital in Tel Aviv and they are supporters of this team, Baytar Jerusalem. Their supporters group is called Lafamilia and they are a notorious organization in Israel. There's a minister that has in the past suggested declaring a materist organization for the various reasons. What happened was they had basically come across a rumor that a Hamas fighter was being treated at this hospital in Tel Aviv, and they decided to take matters into their own hands.

I did speak to a doctor, you're on the client who works at the hospital in Tel Aviv. A storm in the hospital on bikes, you know, young people dress in black on motorcycle. People might confuse them for a storm by the Hamas. At the time, there was no Hamas in the hospital, so they actually invaded the hospital and went from floor to floor to see if there are no terrorists. There was none. And the shouting went quickly from death to the terrorists, quickly to like within a minute death to People, Jews. I knew so little coming into this story that you've reported here about how fanatical some fans in Israel are about their soccer teams.

So just explain Bait Tarj Jerusalem. Where do they fit into the political cultural landscape in Israel? This is the Israeli domestic soccer league, of the Top Flight League that we're talking about, which is relatively minor league. And Baytar Jerusalem is one of the traditional powerhouses of the League. It is also known as the team of the right wing. I want to actually understand how extreme this faction is. Like La Familia, you call them. That alone, I'm like, why are they called La Familia?

Yeah, you know, I spoke into a researcher, kind of an expert in La Familia, and she said that it's kind of what you'd assume. They're trying to sound like, first of all, like they're from Europe, so the ultra's, right, the hardcore European. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Software fans.

I'm sure we've all kind of seen footage of the guys who are bringing the flares, bringing the banners, leading the chance, the drums, kind of associated with Italy and Spain. So they picked this name that kind of sounds to them, like Talian, their politics are very, very clear. There are other groups in the world, in World Soccer that flirt with the far right or borrow symbols.

Like these guys aren't flirting, they're running around chanting death to the Arabs. This is the Jewish state, I hate all the Arabs. Like there's no confusion. But I wanna go back to the time you spend about a decade ago in Israel, as you're reporting on Betar and Lafamilia in person, which seems horrifying to contemplate at this point.

But you, in that time, in that place, what did you see when it came to just their position in the political superstructure? 2013, I was in, I was in Israel reporting the story for Grantland. Batar had signed some players that were Muslim. That led to the fans, specifically Lafamilia, to revolt. They were so angry by this that they set fire to the trophy room at the Batar headquarters. The confusing thing was that the team hadn't signed, you know, Israeli Arabs.

They had signed two guys from Chechnya. Right, they're not, at least they're not. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, they think they're being cute or clever, threading the needle. Lafamilia effectively makes it very clear that they will not have this. Multiple owners over the years, debates are have tried to push back on Lafamilates are have tried to push back on La Familia have tried to push back on this

radical fan base does La Familia listen to what the team it seems like they have their own pretty distinct. Yeah, oh yeah, I mean the 2013 was basically a huge victory for La Familia. They managed to get these guys to leave by the end of the next season to this date. There has not been an Arab or a Muslim player at Bataar. So, you know, they're actually dictating like who can play and who can't, you know. It's not a, it's

not a subtle thing or some sort of a, you know, in the background kind of influence. And so that influence though, how has that functioned at a time when the political administration of the state of Israel has also been now leaning rightward, trending directionally in that way? I mean, yeah, to come back to what we first asked, how is this a sports story? I mean, for me, this feels like a reflection of the right wing, the ruling coalition. Politicians have for decades fronted as Baitsar fans to gain support, the ruling coalition. Politicians have for decades fronted as Baitsar fans to gain support, to gain voters. And as an example, here is the prime minister of Israel,

Benjamin Nanyahu, declaring his allegiance to Baitsar in front of this crowd of flag-waving, raucous fans. Rani Patia, Irim. Lagir lahim. Rakh. Stey Milim. Yellow Baitsar. I am the one who will be the winner of the team. I am the winner of the team. I am the winner of the team. There's been many protests, movements in the last few years in Israel. Most recently, it was a weekly protest movement against an attempt by the ruling right wing coalition to effectively neuter the Israeli Supreme Court. Lafamilia acted as a counter-ballast.

They were called upon to come out and be the counter-protesters, mostly that involved, again, chanting horrific things like that to Arabs and some funny things like where are the wh****s of Antifa? Oh man, they're on Twitter? Yeah, they're on Twitter too. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they hate Antifa. You're describing a scene in which this soccer fan base has been conscripted to fight an explicitly political war. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they, you know, they love it. I mean, this is great, you know, it puts them centrally in the conversation.

And at the same time, the right wing feel like they have support in the street, you know? Right. But there is clear indications that Lafamilia is seen as kind of a, like a strike force, like a little militia, you know, to call forward. And usually when they come out to the street, there's violence. The protesters are injured. Error bystanders are injured. The person that is central to the story currently is the minister of national security.

He's from our Ben Gvier. Ben Gvier, a man, one commentator dubbed the David Duke of Israel, is so extreme that he makes our very own Marjorie Taylor Greene and Carrie Lake and Doug Masteriano look like woke leftists. He is an openly racist anti-Arab member of a far, far, far right party that Netanyahu joined with to form his coalition. He's come in with this ruling right when coalition he represents the most radical strain of Jewish supremacy.

His background is a defense lawyer for Jewish extremists. He believes in expanding the settler movement. In public he represents the extremist nature of this ruling coalition. And he is a self-described Baitsar fan, of course. In fact, here is Ben Gavir in the middle of a crowd of singing Baitsar fans on video, Arminar. So he has seen soccer be this useful. I mean, I guess both a figurative but also potentially

a physical, literal, cudgel to do what to his enemies. Yeah, I mean, he has used it to become a populist figure to make himself seem like a man of the people in the old days, politicians used to go to the market and Jerusalem, you know, shake hands and kiss babies and do all that kind of stuff. And in the last few decades, you know, Teddy Stadium has become the center. Yeah, you go there and you put this car on and the big tar supporters chant their anti-Arab chance and, you know, it's more been fierce, they're taking selfies, you know. It's a familiar scene and it's an effective scene and it allows him to not even have to say the horrible things, right?

It's like the people around him are saying the horrible things. And just to establish how horrible these things are. In this scene here, the fans are chanting, we are the most racist team in the country. It's literally what they're saying as translated. We are the one who's right. One notable incident with Ben Gvere and La Familia is that he's actually defending them on the national news.

There's this contentious interview he was doing, kind of was being pushed on his embrace of La Familia, and he kind of just snapped. And you know, this kind of echoes of Trump's famous comments after Charlesville. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. Dammit, yaga, vato, tseki, bebe, bebe la familia, y esh, sini, beza, y esh, y esh, yaga. You know, what he said was, and La Familia, there are officers in the IDF,

and there are people who serve and who are moral and have high values, please stop doing character assassination for the entire world. So, you know, this is the Minister of National Security going on national news to defend them, which I'm sure they left. And just to be very clear about this, their enemy as they see it is who. So their cross city rival is called Haapwale Jerusalem.

Haapwale is not historically a big club, but the fans are super devoted, small, but passionate fan base. The interesting thing about them is that they are explicitly a club that fights for coexistence, you know, air of dual solidarity. It's a very, very different mentality and actually share a stadium. You said they're sharing the same physical location. Exactly. Yeah. That's a funny thing to wrap your head around the way that, you know, both these groups are beholden to their fans, but in very different ways, you know, Hoppo Welles actually fan-owned. So this is a team that is populist in some structural ways

that as well, historical ways as well as in terms of their ideology. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot going on. So, yeah, so Hot Poils Jerusalem is tied to the once-powerful trade union that still exists in Israel, but it isn't quite as powerful. Hot Poils means the worker. They have the sickle and hammer and their slogan. It's all very explicit. And then at the same time, this current iteration of the club has created this community literally, you know, direct democracy system, you know, fans that pay around $300 a year get voting rights on the, you know, on the board. The board appoints the CEO, the

CEO, hires the manager and the coach. So, you know, ultimately, the fans aren't happy, you know, things are going to have to change. So I think it's a, it's a fascinating way to think about being a sports fan, you know, especially for me as an American sports fan, you know, I've loved the Celtics my whole life. And I've just give them my money, you know, white as socialist. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, I've bought a lot of Paul Pierce T-shirts. So again, I want to be mindful of the ways in which I'm not oversimplifying this story, but you have painted a picture here, Amos, where two teams that share the same stadium are on two diametric sides of the aisle ideologically and also politically, hop a well.

I want to just personalize them here. When you think of their fan base, is there a particular person that comes to mind? I think about a fan named Hirsch Goldberg-Polen. He's 23 and he has supported them since he was like a kid, like a preteen. He grew up in the U.S. until he was seven. So grew up in the American Sports Culture, it was a White Sox fan.

His mom says in part despite his dad, it was a Cubs fan. He moves to Jerusalem, I think he was seven or eight and falls in love with this all together different thing. This is really Jerusalem soccer culture, this team, Hapuel. His friends describe him as just super, super passionate, always standing and singing. And he is a part of a supporters group that you could look at as kind of a parallel to Lafamilia.

These are the guys who are the hardcore for Hapuel. As spoke to one of his friends that is in this supporters group, his name is Narius Smith. We don't like sit down and watch the game and you know, like each sunflower seeds or something like other fans we sing and we clap and we dance and we try to like affect the game in our own way. Very explicitly, they believe in peace, coexistence, Arab-Jerosaladerity, almost like a social outreach entity. You know, they love this team.

That's what brings them together. And then within that, they go forward and all kinds of charitable acts. What do they do? As a matter of like programs. If Lafamilia is over there, setting things on fire and hurting people, what are hersionist friends doing? It's all super classic do-goodery.

They held a tournament for people from Sudan that were effectively seeking asylum in Israel. So this group actually organized a day where they bused them to Jerusalem, had Sudanese food and music, musicians, actual performers, and held a tournament after a Jewish Arab school was torched in 2014 by a suspected Jewish extremist, you know, they held up a banner in the stadium in support of the school. They're not like an anti-occupation entity. They don't have solutions to the conflict

and to the occupation, and they're not really suggested them, right? They're trying to like focus in on creating positivity and Jerusalem and just trying to control what they can, you know. So yeah, so Hirsch within that context is kind of like a classic cup of oil fan travels to away games on these bus rides that, you know, bring them back home in the middle of the night.

I talked to his mom, Rachel, and she told me all about how he would just kind of finesse this with her. Oh my gosh, we're so, we're like, so American, he would say to us, he'd be in high school and he'd say, I've got to go to Nahria tonight. Now, that's like, I'm the bus, that's like four hours from our house. This is part of the beauty of when you're an immigrant. You can tell your parents anything and they actually believe you. He does always be like, this is the most important game, you know, you don't understand if we

like get three points here, then this happens and she would be like, I don't understand what you're talking. I don't understand the calculus. But if you say that's right, you know, go ahead and you know, he'd like give her heart attacks because, you know, they'd be bus rising in the middle of the night. I mean, there was one time I remember that I woke up and it was like 3.30 in the morning on a school night and he wasn't home and I tried his phone and it went, you know, it indicated that the phone was dead and I was really worried and I tried calling the other boy he was with

and his phone was also dead and of course what had happened was the bus had broken down on the way back and none of them had any way to call any other parents and when he did come in I was like I had been sitting up waiting for him. And I was like hysterical. She referred to him as a teenager coming into what she said, it was non-sophisticated political awareness, which I think is a really nice phrase. And I think a lot of us can relate to that being 15, 16, having like a chagavare poster on our walls without being able to explain why.

And so he believes in something that he can't quite understand. He finds this club and it's this perfect thing for him to just pour all his heart into. He becomes just like this really well-known fan and you know, everyone describes them as cheery, happy, you know, and always shirtless, like a shit. It loves to be shirtless, which is great. Yeah. So I want to bring us into the day that it all started, this war, October 7th, because there were various attacks by Hamas along the border with Gaza.

Where was Hirsh in all of that? Mask of Fusion, Mask casualties. And in the middle of that, Hirsch was at a music festival, the Supernova Festival. That became the site of a mass shooting. The site of the music festival, where Hamas did mass slaughter of young people taking hostages. You're learning some more information about that dance party that was taking place near

the border. You're talking about slaughter. You're talking about human people who came face to face, shot up, stabbed, killed these people. Hundreds of civilians were killed, hunted down as they tried to flee the festival. Feast to face, shut up, stabbed, killed these people. Hundreds of civilians were killed, hunted down as they tried to flee the festival. So how do Hershey's friends hear about this in the first place? And in real time, is all this is unfolding? Naria, his friend told me that in the chaos of that day,

everyone from the fan group and the related pals were changing text messages, what's that? Messages. And just started circulating. There was like frantic messaging back and forth that Hershey's there. He's out the party that we really went there and trying to find out his whereabouts, you know, and calling people, trying to see who he was with and realizing that it's family as it hurt from them and this is real and this is happening. It took a while to understand that that's what happened because a lot of the people that were kidnapped, they were their stings which first is missing. It took a

while to understand that people were kidnapped to Gaza. He was hiding in a roadside bomb shelter with some 30 other people and terrorists came there and they shot into there. It's a very tight space and they threw something like nine grenades. His breath's brand, his name is Anil Shapila. He threw seven of the eight grenades that the Hamath terrorists threw into the bombshirt, he threw them out and he saved countless lives of people. And then the end, the eighth exploded on him and killed him. And the Athe exploded on him and killed him, but now is also a fan, and he was Hershey's best friend, so we also remember him. So we should say here that Hershey was severely injured by this grenade attack in this bunker. Trenou in part because of cell phone video, first obtained by CNN, which shows her

being loaded into a truck by gunman and then being driven off to captivity. That's Hirsch on the right with another hostage, whose left hand and part of his arm is blown off, the bone sticks out. That video is the last visual proof that Hirsch's mom, Rachel, has of her son. And the last thing that Hirsch told his family came in the form of text messages that he said that same day. The day he was abducted, the first text was, I love you. The second one said, I'm sorry. And today, as of this episode, Hersh has been away from home for 66 days. This is Hersh's mom, Rachel, again. six days. This is Hershey's mom, Rachel, again. I would obviously really like to know how my son is doing after losing his arm. And that was the wound that we saw, you know, when you're in a small room and grenades are going off and bullets are being fired. Yes, he lost his arm. I have no idea if he has internal bleeding

internal damage. I don't know how his hearing damage. I don't know how his hearing is. I don't know how his sight is. She was very direct about what she's going through. How does she describe what she's feeling? Yeah, you know, she's talking about, she described almost like a physical pain. You and I are talking right now and I seem probably pretty functional and normal,

but it's a lot of, it takes like all of my reserves to do it because it's like if you didn't see that someone's underneath me like twisting my ankle like backwards. Like that's what it feels like. Like it's actual physical pain at all times and emotional, psychological, spiritual pain.

It's every kind of pain all at once. It was nice for me to speak with her about Hersh's fandom, you know, and to hear all the positive stories, you know, all the joy that he has had with Upwell in his life. And that team, that fan team, that club has come here to our house, has really just been, they have become family. The whole fan team had come out to support us with these huge banners. And one of his best friends said, gosh, when he gets home,

he's going to really hate this. He's a lot like me, like we like to fly under the radar and now, you know, there's these enormous murals of his face, you know, that just say bring her home. And I said, you know what, I would love to handle that anger. Like that would be amazing. Like if I can have him home and he beat disappointed that his face is all over Jerusalem, that I will handle, no problem.

I think that being kind of this community club, there's a natural way that you start just betting the way in the community, there's murals in Jerusalem. And his parents, independent of that have also, from the outside, looked to me like they've done everything they possibly can, to press the right buttons, to me, like they've done everything they possibly can, you know, to

press the right buttons, you know, to get this word out, to speak to politicians to the media. The idea of what this team and club stand for, these ideas of peaceful coexistence, normalizing interaction through sports, it makes it feel like this painful this painful moment that happened that there's still hope and In this time of intense exquisite pain that I am in To know that these people are fighting for him and all of them is Like a tiny ray of hope for me All of them is like a tiny ray of hope for me.

There's still hope. It's hope that's battered and bruised and we're tender right now. But I'm thankful that I have gotten to know these young people and that they feel so committed to these values that the club and that the team promote. It's pretty amazing because, like, to see a stadium of 45,000, 30,000 people, and the stadium announcer is talking about her,

she has pictures on a big screen, and the team has published on Twitter calls to bring him back and on Facebook, and they've been very involved. And I think that that's the power of our solidarity and our connection that could be shown also during hard times. I try not to really think about where he is or what's happening because I can think that that could go really scary really fast. But when I have a moment of a happy daydream,

I picture him playing soccer there. I do. I picture him playing soccer with some children there. I don't know who those children are if they're other hostages. If they're Palestinian kids, I don't know who they are, but I do picture that. It's a good game for teaching patients. I'm willing to watch, but like, all right, it takes very long time for something to happen.

So maybe, maybe it's helping him somewhere, because it's that being able to sit there, like the fact that you could sit there for two hours in the score is zero. One that's, that's actually like a zen practice of patience. Maybe it's helping him. Did you hear her sort of indulge the darkest fears that she might have? That herch actually may not end up coming home. No, absolutely not.

She's just manifesting that day, you know, when he comes back into her arms. That's all she was focused on. I also picture that he's probably really bummed out because he always liked being the goalie. And I think one hand of goalie is probably not really totally fair. But I'm thinking when he gets back,

we'll get him like a gigantic bionic arm and that that left hand is going to be even bigger than it should act with me and then we'll even better golly. Rachel, his mom speaking to us to you. I mean, I can't, I, the nightmare that she is living. This through line in her son's life where he was this soccer superfan who was like sneaking out of the house basically to go watch this team. This team that has as its whole mission statement, Arab Jewish relations, and he ends up being one of the people who are kidnapped here.

And if I'm his mom, I don't know if my first instinct would be to be thankful for the team. Yeah. It almost feels like there's this incredibly cruel irony that Hirsch specifically was one of these people who was taken. Hirsch's story is both deeply moving, I hope, to everyone. But it's also just one small window

into truly an unimaginable number of tragedies that are happening simultaneously. Yeah. Today as we're speaking over 15,000 people have been killed in Gaza. You know, there are people buried alive. Those are already even counted as the deaths yet. And we're talking about Hirsch.

And we're like highlighting his story. It's just one but one narrow window. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I think that it's like a human truism that we've all kind of heard this cliche, that one death is a tragedy, you know, a million deaths is a statistic. I worry, you know, that even as we're doing this, that's where we kind of get lost in. Yes.

The stories of the people being killed in Gaza. You know, each and every one of them is a tragedy, you know, each and every one. We spoke about this story as a way to talk about Israel. It's talk about the political landscape in Israel. Yes. And we are fixating on this club and Hersh's, this basically fringe entity that is fighting for some little semblance

of, you know, Arab-Jewish solidarity. But the reality is that's not the country. The country is more in line with Bangvier, the Batesar, Diehard, the National Security Minister, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Anyone paying attention to some of the comments that have come out of his allies in the Israeli far right coalition would be horrified. In part, it's just the kind of flippant way in which they're talking about mass death,

you know, talking about flattening, guys, a time of crushing, but it's also just as an aside, the flippant way in which they're disregarding the hostages. Right, this is the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, saying as much on television. We expect the Red Cross, we expect all international organizations to focus on these hostages and how they are treated and that they receive treatment according to international law. But it's not going to stop us, prevent us from doing what we need to do in order to secure the future of Israel. People in Ben-Gveer's right-wing camp, you know, so we have to target Thomas mercilessly

without taking into serious consideration the matter of the captives. You know, another minister has advocated for dropping in the Tomic bomb on Gaza. And you know, when asked what about the hostages said, I hope and pray for their return, but there are costs in war. Man. Back to hers for a minute and the idea of when could he maybe come home? So this first phase of the hostage negotiations was focused on women and children. And there was an idea that they could move towards another phase. on women and children. And there was an idea that they could move towards another phase, but the negotiations have broken down. Fighting has resumed Israel, of course, has withdrawn from negotiations and cutter. Negotiations

over the release of additional hostages in Gaza appear highly unlikely to resume anytime soon. Time is running out for those 130 or so remaining hostages inside Gaza. And one of the things that we're hearing from the families that they're so frustrated about is they feel like they understand the shape of a deal that will bring their loved ones home. It involves releasing probably thousands of Palestinian militants from Israeli jails and they are saying to the government, make that deal now, bring our loved ones back. There is just a basic fact that some elements of the Israeli government are prioritizing

the war over releasing the hostages. As this was going on, as the idea of continuing the negotiations was in the air, banged via release of statement, saying stopping the war equals breaking apart the government. That meant he was threatening to leave the coalition, the ruling coalition, which would likely trigger elections. This is a kind of the most radical option that he could come up with. And he's using it, he's threatening Matt and Yahoo, the prime minister, that don't even think about trying to free more of these hostages,

or I'll do the worst thing for you. When you hear, the ceasefire has ended, the worst thing for you. When you hear, you know, this ceasefire has ended, the hostage negotiations are off, you know, that didn't just happen, you know. There are people involved that made that decision, there are prioritizing other things. And I also just wanna be very transparent

about like the decisions we make as a show. I often talk about how we have a newsroom here and we do, it's a small group of people that I got to decide like, what are we covering? And what are we, therefore, not covering? Yeah. And we're a 50-minute show that is about sports technically. And so I do want to acknowledge that,

Hersh's story and the story of Betar and Hoppewell. We chose that not just because it checks those boxes, but because this is now how I'm going to see what seems to be a very disturbing and complicated political dynamic in Israel. And now, just to put what I've learned to the test, it seems like in Ben Givir, the National Security Minister, Amos,

we're gonna get the Baytar Superfan, having to decide, do I want to release prisoners and exchange them for hostages when those hostages are these hapowell super fans like her, who are not my people in the political or philosophical sense. Yeah, I mean, you know, like we talked about, I've been reporting this for 10 years, we've been reporting this for many of our 10 years. This is not the only way, or even the dominant way of looking at things,

but it is a way of looking at things. The teams echo the bigger picture, they'd aren't defining it, but through them, I think we can tell these human stories, which reflects the fans, the people in power, this kind of mob mentality that exists with La Familia, the way they influence events in their particular unique ways. And yeah, to go from here,

to try to keep understanding why this is happening, the way it's happening, yeah, I hope it's of value in a small contained way. Yeah. Yeah. And the next human story again that I want us to cover together is the story of the goalie with the bio. Yeah. Yeah. Superstar. I want that scandal. I want the robotic arm. They can't tell me can't play. No, exactly. You know, I'm worried tactically they'll just, the opposing teams will just go to the other arm, won't they? I mean, it's, he'll be all right, but he'll be found out fairly quickly.

You know what? I have a feeling that Rachel is going to have a solution. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's thinking five steps ahead. Oh, yeah, yeah. She hates soccer, but she's a mastermind of it. Yes, absolutely.

Amos Varsha, thank you for sharing your reporting. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me So I should point out at the end here that Baitar and Hoppewell actually played last Wednesday at Teddy Stadium, the stadium that they share in Jerusalem. And Baitar won 1-0. But by the very next day, which just happened to be the first day of Hanukkah, Hersch's dad, John, the Cubs fan that we had mentioned earlier, who had inspired his son's contrarian baseball, White Sox fandom, was unambiguous in his rooting interest,

as he explained on the Instagram account, titled, Bring Hirsch Home. So it's the holiday of Hanukkah now, and every day of Hanukkah, we're going to share a little snippet about herch, corresponding to the number of what date is of Flanacal. Today's the first day. So of course herchies are first child, are one and only so rude and there are lots of other ones and firsts that I could talk about. But if I'm honest, Hersha's real first love for many, many years has been a Paul Jerusalem.

And then a couple of days later, Hersha's sisters, Libyan or Lee, followed up with some symbolism of their own. Today is day three of Connita, which is a significant number because we're three siblings. As you guys know, Hersha's our older brother, with three children. He has this thing where every time three of us are together, he's saying, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun,

we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of fun, we're having a lot of him. We love him and miss him and hope he comes over every day. Yeah, keep it. Hershey's family, including Rachel, the mom who spoke to us, is gonna keep posting videos like this.

And the hope is that there can be more hostages released than that there can be another ceasefire, as unlikely as that might look right now with the latest headlines indicating that the Palestinian death toll is rising, right alongside the number of rounds of tank ammunition, that America is selling to Betar Superfan, it's of our Ben Givir, and the Israeli government, which presumably celebrated that one-nil outcome that I had just referenced. But these teams, I do want to stress, are not the only lens to see this story through,

as Amma said. They are A-Lens, they are not the only one. And for that reason, I suppose it will be easier to not have tried to talk about any of this. But if you made it this far, listening, I think that means something too. This has been Pablo Torre finds out a metal-lark media production, and I'll talk to you next time. you you