The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Eric Musselman

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Basketball is more than just a love of the game for Eric Musselman... it's a deep family legacy and a driving force in everything he does - it's life. The USC men's basketball coach shares with Dan how his father, the legendary longtime basketball coach Bill Musselman, "was the most competitive person I've ever seen in my life" and how that led to Eric having no choice but to follow in his footsteps, becoming the first father-son duo to serve as head coach in the NBA. The Trojans' head coach talks about the hardest challenges and life lessons learned in his more than 30 years of coaching experience in the NBA and NCAA. Now, Eric continues honing his basketball heritage through his kids - connecting to his sons through their work together at USC and the lessons he's learned from being a parent. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Draft King's Network. When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at amex.ca slash y-Amex. South Beach sessions. We've been doing this out here because we can get closer to basketball royalty. I think of this name. I think Musselman. I think Van Gundy's. I think about people who were okay at basketball, but really good at teaching basketball.

So he is now the coach at USC. He's had 24 players that he's sent to the NBA, 11 of them, in the last five years, six years. And also beyond, what is it, six tournament appearances, two elite eight. And now you're the coach at, USC. So thank you for joining us. It's been quite the journey. Can you start right now and name all the teams you've coached, head coach and assistant, start at age 23 with the thrillers. Let's see if you can do this. Wow. Can you go through all of them? Do you think you can do it quickly? I don't know, Dan. First of all, thanks so much for having me on. I'm going to go as quick as I can. It would be Rapid City Thrillers, Minnesota Timberwolves, Minnesota Timberwolves back to Rapid City Thrillers. Rapid City Thrillers, to the Orlando, no, to the West Palm Beach, Florida Beach Dogs.

Florida Sharks. Florida Sharks, USBL was in between. Chuck Daly then hired me with the Orlando Magic. Orlando Magic to the Atlanta Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, to the head coach of the Golden State Warriors, Golden State Warriors, to the media world where I did NBA Radio Games, game of the week. That doesn't count. Let's go to Memphis. We're going to Memphis next. We're going to go to Memphis with Mike Furtello. From Memphis to the head job of the

Sacramento Kings, from Sacramento to three years of being a dad, back to the G League in Reno with the Reno Big Horns to Arizona State as an assistant coach, to Louisiana State as an assistant coach, to the head coach of the University of Nevada, to the head coach of Arkansas to now being at USC. What I missed, Dan. You missed the Dominican team, the Venezuelan team. What about the LA? Did you mention the defenders? I did not mention the Lakers G League team either. And you got LSU. LSU was in there somewhere? Yes, I did. I did get LSU. All right. So congratulations. You did pretty well. But along that path, what would you describe if you had to choose in the extremes, the best year that you had and the worst year, the place where you felt like you were most on

on an outpost and not enjoying yourself coaching? The hardest experience as a coach, for sure, was the Sacramento Kings, and there's not even a close second. And then I would say best, almost every one of those other places, I loved. One found something outside of basketball that I really loved about the location of all the spots that I've coached at, and then the people that I've worked with, all super positive experiences. Even Golden State, it's super unique, Dan, that you could coach for two years, get fired, and still wear, like, the team apparel and team gear with pride. Like, I have no

problem walking the Strand in Manhattan Beach with a Golden State warrior shirt on, even though I only lasted there two years. No Sacramento gear? I'm not going to wear a king's gear. That's the one gear that I probably will not have on. But what happened there? So why was that the worst of the experiences by far. Yeah, I think a whole bunch of things. One, as a young coach, you get an opportunity and you feel like, I don't know if I'm going to get another opportunity. So it's a head coach of an NBA team. But when you replace a really, really good coach or a Hall of Fame type coach, which Rick Adelman, I was replacing somebody that had great success. And they were knocking on the door of conference championships and knocking on the door of every year coming

into thinking about potentially playing in an NBA championship series. That's a hard thing, especially for a young coach, to replace an older veteran coach with an older veteran team, with a general manager that had been with that head coach. And they shared the same philosophical opinions on how the game should be played. played, which differed from my opinion on how I wanted our teams to play. So all of it's lonely. It just all becomes lonely. And that feels not supported.

I want to get to the happier stuff with you. But I want to examine what gets learned amid failure as well and misery. So you love coaching. I imagine you can unspool quite the poem right now. If I just ask you to explain to me what basketball has done for you and how you love basketball but that had to be a misery what you're describing to be at the top of your dreams to be failing to feel unsupported and it scarred you in a way that you're still saying no i probably didn't love coaching that year because i there's a helplessness in coaching you guys are

kind of control freaks you want to like and then once you throw it all out there it just the ball bounces the way it does and you don't have much control over anything anymore it's frustrating so i can't even imagine what that was as a misery for you to to get fired there to feel everything that you felt there yeah I think that like when I look back on it I took the job for you I was going through a divorce at the time and so for me Sacramento brought me within a 55 minute drive to my sons so when I look back and reflect on how I could have been better one don't get a DUI when you're in training camp that was the kiss of death and that's mistake I made, have to live with it, probably kept me out of the NBA 10 years after that.

Now, as time's gone on, then it becomes kind of your own type decision. But I was trying to be a dad to two sons, so we would have a king's practice, and then I would drive, it's 55 minutes from Sacramento to Danville, California, without traffic. Then you add in the traffic, but I was trying to go to every little league game. So if you have two sons playing Little League, they're probably going to be almost six to seven days a week when you got two Little League games or AAU basketball. I didn't want to miss anything. So I was practicing, getting in my car, driving an hour, watching a two-hour game of Little League, driving back, having practice, and then maybe the next day going to watch my other son. So I was stretched too thin, trying to be parent, single dad.

50% of the time I had my two sons with me as well, whether they were with me in Sacramento on the weekends going on road trips with me. So probably could have been more focused strictly on the job

but I don't regret the parenthood part of it at all. So I'm kind of conflicted. Well, what a weird thing. The reason I wanted to take some of this path with you is you're at your dreams extensively, right? You're running an organization. You're doing the biggest thing at the highest level. You're replacing

a legend. And the personal life that I would imagine that if you've been sculpting basketball all your life, there has been imbalance that has made relationships, make women understand this man's going to be on the road a lot. He's going to be obsessed. Even when he's here, he's not going to be here because his mind's going to be there. So I would imagine that that year, at the height of your dreams, a total misery because you got both things happening. And you're, and you, you feel guilty that you're failing at both because how how you do both of those things if they're not tied together and I would say that the uncomfortableness the regret the thought process of of not being all in was more the basketball than the because I was all in on my sons you know so

I don't regret driving when I drove I was never upset that I was in a car forgive me I meant whatever the guilt of divorce is. Yes, all for sure. I just met in general the fact that you had found yourself that you had to make that drive to be dutiful loving parent because you had to overextend yourself. Yes. No, dad loves you just as much as he always has. No question.

And I would say that that experience that you're referring to, Dan, was probably more in Memphis when the divorce started to happen. Then it was super like now the personal thought process of. of, wow, I'm not going to be with my sons every day. Even though I had already taken a job in Memphis to work for Mike Fratello, Jerry West was a general manager, I made that decision, but we were still married at the time. And then when the marriage broke off, I was still working in Memphis, and that's probably the most challenging from a personal standpoint to try to deal with.

And you're right, it's like it's this two conflicting worlds for coaches in probably any sport. Well, your balance in general when it comes to family, what has been convenient is that sons just come work for you or you go work for dad. Your family has always been a basketball family. Did your kids even have in their minds a choice? Not saying that you wouldn't give them a choice, but they were going to go into basketball, right? That's what the muslimans know. Well, for sure, with me personally, Dan, I knew nothing else because I would wake up. I would to school and then my mom would drop me off at my dad's practices. And then every weekend, I would go on a road trip. I was a ball boy. I wanted to be the ball boy of the opposing team's

locker room because I wanted to see what diagrams were written up. So for me, I knew that's all I knew. I didn't know how to change the light ball. My dad never took me golfing. No hobbies with me. My sons are a little more well-rounded, probably because of the divorce. So they got 50% of the time away from my inner world of basketball. So I think they were experienced. They got to experience way more things than I did, more vacations, more worldly things. And I really wasn't sure where my sons would go. Maybe in their eyes, they had no choice.

You know, I certainly had no choice. My dad was my best friend. He was my idol, and I knew I wanted to walk in his footsteps. matter what, the firings that I saw my dad go through, the brutal losses. For me, it was all good. Like, that was the greatest world you could have, even though I knew that there was, I had much more misery at times than maybe some of my fellow students in high school that had the same normal life, their whole life and went to the same. Because he was bringing home the losses, just the weight of them, just because, like, the lifestyle was pressurized?

Yeah, and I don't even know, Dan, if he needed to bring home the losses, it's just you go to school the next day. And, you know, like when I was in high school, my dad was coaching the Cavaliers. They were not very good. Ted Steppian was the owner. The NBA had to put a closet on trades even and prevent them from trading first round picks. So that was hard, you know, like you go to a high school game, a road game, and people are throwing hot dogs at you and they're making fun of, you know, My dad was in a situation, too, Dan, where it was kind of like Billy Martin and George Steinbrenner. Like my dad would get fired from one position and hired in another position within the organization.

So super hard to deal with, but I think it – I got to experience stuff that maybe a 30-year-old would experience, you know. And I think it toughened me up. It hardened me. But also I kind of embraced the wildness that can happen in a coaching, like. lifestyle. How hard was your dad on you? How hard was the experience of being his son and knowing nothing else and working for with and around your idol? He was, first of all, my dad was like as old school as it could be. Like he was an old school, tough, hard-nosed coach. But I also felt like he probably loved me as much as any dad that I've ever seen. My sister, um, he,

and her relationship with my dad was so loving, you know, because she wasn't doing the sport that, you know, that he played. He played three sports. So when I played Little League, if I struck out, we were probably going back to have batting practice that night. So you had to meet his standard for excellence and expectations in his area of expertise. I would say yes, whereas my sister, you know, they would play tennis together and it'd be competitive and all that, but not to the level, you know, with, you know, that I had, you know what I mean?

Like I would wake up and maybe on Christmas Day I would do ball handling drills. But loved you with warmth or loved you because you always knew that he was there to support everything you were doing? Did you, was it with words and with warmth, or was it with? No, it was, yeah. I think sometimes, you know, there's some old school, a lot of hugging, a lot of physical, you know, like he would hug me and tell me, love me, he'd kiss me on the cheek. So there was super love, but super disciplined too, you know, like, you know, if I didn't hit

the number of points that I thought, like, his answer was don't blame the coach, go work on your game more. So that type of tough love, but he also had a unique perspective of, of, you know, He loved the beach, and so we got tons of beach time in Florida always as a family. You know, so I saw a little bit different side of him than just the athletic side. But when it came to sports, I got pushed pretty hard. Yeah, exacting, I would imagine. Is there anything that you've made sure not to do with your kids

because you didn't like how it felt the way your father was doing it? Like anything that, obviously you're, I'm guessing there's some similarities in how you've raised them, I'm guessing there's some principal alignment, but is there anything that you've learned? I'm like, you know what? Maybe I don't need to be this hard on them. Maybe they should be easier on themselves and a little more forgiving, enjoy childhood a little more. I would say, Dan, with my second son, Matthew, I was probably a better parent than with Michael. I think that with my older son, I was like a lot of parents.

You know, you have this vision, like can your son play? college athletics, frustration with an AAU coach if his role wasn't what I wanted. And so I would say even though I knew how I was raised and my thought process, but I don't know if I took that into my first son. I pushed Michael pretty hard. With Matthew, I took a step back because I saw where Michael was going and it was just like, hey, how do you just like, did many kids want to jump in my car after a game? Probably not, you know, because it was going to be talking about the game. Looking back now with my daughter, Mariah, and she's in competitive dance, I don't want to talk about the competitive dance. I want to talk about where do we want

to go to dinner, you know. And so with each child, I've gotten better and better. But it's a hard thing, you know, like everybody wants to, not everybody, but a lot of people want to push their child to be as great as you can get them to be, but there's also a fine line, obviously. And so I think I've learned with each child. I think most parents would say that my parents were much harder on me. You know, they're learning. All of it takes practice. And so they let go of the reins a little bit on my brother because they had their remorse wherever they were fearful because they were young. I think are you, how much guilt do you do? How much regret do you do? Are you someone who forgives yourself easily or do you ravage yourself on the mistakes? No, I mean, I think that with

all of us, we all, like, I know each step of the way where there's been mistakes, the biggest thing is just like, don't justify it, you know, accept it and then try to get better. You know, so for me, I don't think, like, I have an opportunity now to, if I messed up when my kids were younger, well, I'm getting a chance to work with them now, you know. And so, like with the divorce, Dan, so like 50% of the time I didn't have my sons. Well, now I'm getting 100% while we're working together. You know, so maybe I'm justifying in my own mind. Well, it's good. I mean, I had a better relationship with my father working with him on television as an adult than I had when I was younger for a variety of reasons. Both of us being older and having the appreciation that just comes with age and with learning and with being fired. I've read you say, I don't know if you still stick to this. I will not hire someone who has not been fired because I want somebody who has the appreciation that comes with having been fired and being grateful for having the job still. That's still a

that's still a principal of yours? Well, it's one that I feel would really help make the staff better, but as you get older as a coach, you need younger staff members. And so I think when I was younger as a coach, like it was super important for me. I wanted to hire, you know, my college coach that had been fired, Hank Egan. It was super important that he was, you know, part of my staff. And then as I've gotten older in my career now, I've got to hire younger guys that have not been fired, but you want to try to teach them to understand that there's a different viewpoint

once you've been fired somewhere. And probably the greatest thing about being fired is you're not fearful of being fired a second or a third time. I do think that the first time is the hardest time. But in our profession, it's going to happen, especially the higher level you go the differences between college and professional coaching like what are the what are the biggest ones that you would point to dan there's so many i'll start with per diem yeah and i say that like in the NBA the per diem's really good um hotels um and and i also think many of those differences that i just mentioned um the charter planes the foods that also hurt me trying to get into college basketball because I think that athletic directors looked at the different

lifestyle that you have at the NBA level and wondered, can you coach at a low major and accept what my background was unique because I had been in the minor leagues. So I appreciated everything in the NBA level. But there's so many little things that are different on the floor from an X&O standpoint. In the NBA, you've got to be really, really good at side out of bounds, often. and defense late game. Like you've got to be an expert in that field or you have no chance. In college, baseline out of bounds.

So I go to my first college job and I have this whole book on side out of bounds philosophically what I want to do offensively deep. And I'm like, there's only one side out in this college game. Baseline out of bounds based on where the referee places the ball. That alone, I had no idea. You know, until I get involved in it.

But in the NBA, you don't do your own schedule. In college, you're responsible for your non-conference schedule. And then the biggest piece is the age. And you're developing young men. You're developing their habits. Where in the NBA, you're dealing with grown men that have families. Habits have already been developed, and you're just trying to kind of tweak things. But I think the universal thing, no matter what age, you coach somebody, the player wants to know, can you help me get better?

that is the, whether it's third grade AAU or an NBA All-Star, that's the whole key, in my opinion. So what would be greater as a challenge than the one I'm presenting to you or a difference between the two, where you're basically saying, in college you're developing habits, in the pros, you're inheriting habits, right? So what's a greater challenge than that between kids and adults? because I would, you went to hotel and you went to money and you went to comforts first, and these are adults who are also wealthy, and they're adults who have gotten where they've gotten maybe taking to mentorship and discipline or maybe rejecting this new guy who, why is he bossing me around? Why is he trying to show me he's in charge? I would say, Dan, from my experience,

buy-in is much easier at the collegiate level. And when I say buy-in, you put in a play the players go out and execute the play the way that you've described it. In the NBA, you might put in that same play and you might be challenged in front of the rest of the roster on why are we doing it this way? College coach knows best, largely still. High school certainly, but college still coach knows best.

Pros? Yeah, you've got to almost prove yourself on a daily basis. You know, I've been around so many great NBA coaches. It's been super interesting to sit back and watch how the audience, meaning the players, take to the messaging. So when you're working for Chuck Daly and he is the former coach of the dream team and he's won world championships with the Pistons, the buy-in was so great. that same message could come from a different coach. It could be the same scheme. The buy-in's not there.

And it's super interesting how pro players, based on who's delivering the message, how that message gets received. Because I've seen differences, I've seen drastic differences in how messages were received. What's up, listeners? I don't know about you, but when I was a kid, I certainly dreamed big.

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Bonus bets expire seven days after issuance. See Sportsbook.draftKings.com slash promos. NFL Sunday ticket offer for new subscribers only in Ottawa News until canceled. Digital games and commercial use excluded. Restrictions apply. Additional NFL Sunday ticket terms at YouTube.com slash go slash NFL Sunday ticket slash terms. Limited time offer. Well, you became a coach at 23, a head coach for the first time, ridiculous, the young coaching that you were doing. When did you learn how to lead? I'm in my 50s running a company and lamenting,

I don't know how to lead, I don't know how to do it. And when I talk to other good leaders, they're always like, well, nobody really does, but you sort of figure out a few tricks along the way, and then at some point you have experience with these things. So when did you know that you were a good leader? I think you're, I think like you're trying to lead every day. I don't think that like, I don't think there ever is an end point in leadership.

And I don't know, like when do you, you probably feel internally confident about leadership when you get full buy-in on a daily basis from the beginning of the season to the end of the season. And then really when you think about leadership, it's how far can you take a group of, of, of, of in our sport, young men, to the finish line where they're maximizing their potential. To me, that's leadership. But when did you know? Did you, like at some point, you didn't have any imposter syndrome when you were 23? You felt like, no, I belong as a head coach at 23 years old. This is my destiny. It's my earned right. It's been handed down from my father. I've learned the things I need to know. I am equipped to lead this. I think at 23 as a head coach of a minor league sports team,

I was confident that I could do the job. Now, what my father told me a week before we were putting our roster together, he said you need to do two things. He goes, number one, you need to understand you don't know anything about X and O's. You don't know anything about leadership. You don't know anything about controlling a locker room. You've never done it. He said, so I'm going to give you these two pieces.

Try to get as many Bobby Knight players that have played for Coach Knight as possible and try to get as many Jerry Tarkhanian players as possible. And I said, why those two? And he goes, it's the perfect blend. With Tark, you're going to get great athletes. You're going to get guys that instinctively react. With Coach Knight, you're going to get guys that are super, super disciplined. And he goes, combine those two, and it's going to equal success,

even though you don't know what you're doing. And it was, I went out and did it. We got Jarvis Bass Knight, and we got Sudden Sam Smith from UNLV, and we went out and got Jimmy Thomas and the Jay Edwards of the world from Indiana, and those Keith Smart, and those guys combined. So you thought your father literally feels like he's handing you family jewels here, correct? Like where you don't know what you're doing yet. Here's a cheap code.

Here's your formula. Exactly. Here's your blueprint to. And so you were able to stack successes on top of each other that gave you confidence that you were leading correctly until you actually learned how to lead. Right. And then I thought I was a really good leader with the Warriors. I really did, you know.

and then personnel changes happened in year two with Golden State. And I felt like I could lead the team. That's just Chris Mullen coming in his GM, right? Yeah, so what happened there, Dan, was in year one, we're all young. Gilbert Arenas was in his second year and hardly played his first year. Jason Richardson was in year two. Troy Murphy in year two. Mike Dunlevy was a rookie.

and then there was a bunch of personnel changes and in came Nick Van Exel at the end of his career in came Avery Johnson end of his career in came Cliff Robinson and Popeye Jones and now I went from what I thought I was a good leader to now being challenged on a daily basis by these veterans so I went from being super confident

to all of a sudden wondering can I lead these guys these guys are older than me These guys are more experienced. These guys have played for incredible NBA head coaches. And so when I walked down those steps for shootarounds, in year one, I was the most confident human being possible. In year two, I wondered when I was going to get challenged on the scheme.

We're putting in a trap-the-pick-and-roll here. Well, what's Avery Johnson going to ask? or what is Nick Banexel going to ask on the third and fourth option of this thing? And am I prepared enough? So there was a little bit of paranoia of how well do I really know, because I had to know it inside and out, because it was almost like a game to this group of veterans. And so when did I, I don't know when I, some years I felt super confident as a leader

in other years. Well, thank you for admitting that, though. What an interesting thing to be summarily confident and then be met with a veteran expertise that you respect so much because they're better at basketball than you were, the sport that you love. No insult there. They're better than almost everybody. And they've learned from some of the best in the league you've always wanted to work in. And so they immediately are producing an imposter syndrome for you. just by challenging you directly, though? It wasn't something you felt. They were challenging you. Oh, yeah. I mean, yes. I'm talking, Dan, like we would put in a pick and roll scheme,

and a couple of the guys had played for the Spurs and Coach Pop, and they said, hey, you know, when we played Milwaukee, that's not how we would play the pick and roll. And this would be a discussion on the floor with everybody around. It wasn't a player coming into my office and closing the door. So it was challenging, you know, and when I, as I look back now, I'm like, I can't believe that coaches are getting hired in their late 30s and can do it. But I know why they're doing it. They're doing it because they have a great locker room.

They're doing it because of situations like Coach Spowe has been put in where Coach Riley has his back, so to speak. And so otherwise, it's super hard for a young coach to even begin. given a legitimate chance to have success. Yeah, it's hard to develop the respect until you've done the winning and you can't really do the winning unless you have the respect. It's why I say, I understand when Pat Riley describes life as winning in misery, I understand when Stan Van Gundy, you know, I tell him all the time. I'm like, you're so much happier when you're not coaching.

Everybody who loves you would say that you're a more balanced, functioning, happy human being and yet it's a heroin addiction you cannot stop you will gravitate toward the misery because the highs are better than any of the highs anywhere else that you get and it's an insanity what you guys do and what you pour into it it almost forces an obsessive compulsive imbalance like i can't imagine that you have much in your life other than basketball and family i got to imagine that what the muscle when you say my dad taught me basketball and that's what he taught me that's what was being handed down in our family and that's it on the man's side For sure. I mean, you, in that little minute and a half segment, you bring up so much, like, before we got into this, we talked about the impact that your podcast slash interview with Coach Riley.

Like, that's someone that, for me, I look up to. When I listened to that podcast, it was so inspirational to me. And the first thing that came to my mind is, man, I wish Dan could do that again with Coach Riley. I need another hour and a half because the lessons that he was saying for all coaches of any sport and then coach Van Gundy opening up and being so transparent with his life outside of basketball

like that stuff is super super impactful for me if I'm not coaching I would be miserable other coaches maybe they're miserable I have misery when I coach but that's a lot better than the three years that I wasn't coaching. Well, I've read you quoted as saying, if I'm not working, I'm walking around like a zombie.

If I'm not working, I need to stay active. Are you in any way hiding in the work, or is it just that you love it so much that this is who you are? It's who you've been. You are at peace with it. It's who you'll forever be. And it makes you happy, even when it makes you miserable. A thousand percent.

This is what I've been exposed to. and what I know. And so for me, like, when I'm in first and second grade and I come down to have breakfast before school, cartoons were not on. Game film was on. And on a weekend, when I'm in third grade and my dad's coaching at the University of Minnesota,

it's Adrian Dantley's on to visit that weekend. and my weekend was not playing outside and riding a snowmobile in Bloomington, Minnesota. It was, oh, I'm following my dad on this visit with Adrian Dantley or Lionel Train Hollins. And I bring those two guys up, Dan, because I know what happened when my dad didn't get those two recruits. Yeah, they're gods.

The two of them, you get those two guys, they will make a lot of coaches look very good at their job. And my household was in turmoil when my dad got to call that Dantley, through the fax machine, had sent it to Notre Dame rather than Minnesota. So all this, you're right, maybe it is like a drug, highs, lows, whatever, like that's what I am used to. That's how I grew up. That's what I need. That's what I like.

That's what I love. What Riley says of Game Sevens, when he talks most poetically about Game Sevens, it's like, Look, they don't, like the olden days in competition, hang you up in a square by your thumbs if you lose. All I'm doing at the height of Game 7 is feeling more alive than I ever do anywhere else in life. Whether it's winning or losing, it's just the place that I feel most alive. When you put the stakes up there and you test me at the maximum of the challenges. Yeah, like for me, you bring up the word alive. So when I get fired from Sacramento, for three years, I decide, all right, I have three more years pay.

I'm in the prime of my career. And I have three more years of pay coming from the Kings. A lovely situation. A great situation. Paid a lot of money to not work, to not have pressure all over you. And I took advantage of it. I wanted to be a dad. How do I reconnect with my son?

So I moved back to where their mother lived, and I was a dad for three years. But towards the end of the three years, I was in carpool lane. I was looking to my left, looking to my right. There's a mom on the right with their Starbucks coffee. There's a mom to the left. And I was like, wow. Like, I'm still, I'm in the prime right now in my career. And this three years has been incredible.

But I got to go do what I do. I got to go do what I love. I have to go do what I'm passionate about. What makes me alive. I got to go do it again. It didn't matter where. So I got a little bit of taste in the Dominican in the summer, where I could still be a dad, but I can go coach for two and a half months in the Dominican Republic.

And then I go to Venezuela. And those are two of the greatest experiences ever. I learned to become a better coach. Half the team didn't speak the same language I did. I don't speak Spanish, but I coached two countries, their national team, where 80% 67% one year of the spoke note

like it was all Spanish speaking so I learned to demonstrate better I learned to communicate better in huddles all those things made me a way way better coach I didn't know it at the time but I knew it coming out of those situations take me through the greatest difficulties of coaching a bunch of players

that don't speak the same language that you do like how is it that you get by the practice I mean, you mentioned some of the details, but take me through some of the difficulties. I imagine that was super weird to not be able to. I mean, I don't know where you place communication on the list of traits a coach has to have, but I would imagine it would be pretty high in terms of importance. It is. So I think one, the key is to have a player that speaks English that really buys in that can help with the interpretation.

And then anybody that speaks Spanish on your staff, there's got to be great trust as well. that what you're conveying. But what I learned as a hands-on coach was demonstration. So being in physical condition, you know, even at 60, super important because I think you've got to be able to go out there and demonstrate what you want. But when you don't speak the same language, now demonstration becomes super, super important. So demonstration, delivery, and slowing things down. were the things that I learned, but I'm a better coach now in college because of those experiences. Because in a huddle, if you only have a minute and a half to get a message in and

your, my diagrams became better. You know, like if I'm coaching a bunch of guys that speak the same language, I can do a sloppy diagram and they go executed. But if not, my diagrams have to be so clear so concise so it became the seating chart on the bench i came up with point guard to my right off guard small forward in the middle power forward center so that when i looked up i knew exactly what position regardless of who was sitting there and and then i would say the player's name look at him diagram where he went so i would go player by player and then diagram where he was i've never done that before. I've always diagramed the whole play. But I've learned that that's probably the best way to get a message across in a huddle. What's an example your family would give me of you

being just totally unreasonably competitive? Like, is there any story of something of a board game? There have to be, there have, you cannot be sane when, or there have to be stories of your youth at the very least where your competitive streak is not in any way reasonable. That would be, pick-up basketball and I don't know if it's my sons but certainly when I was in high school, college and then probably

12 years after college La Jolla Reck Center You were a red ass. Yeah, I mean I did not like to lose in pickup ball and probably even more so Dan than winning a college game I probably took pickup ball

wins and losses, because I would have what my record was every day. And I was pretty prideful of what that record was. And I was super prideful in going into a gym and having somebody else picked the teams against me. So we weren't winning pick up games because of my ability as we were winning pickup games because of my ability to choose for other players that complimented each other to go kick the crap out of the other guy. So I would say that anybody that played with me from the time I was probably 15 years old to 35 would understand the competitive nature. We had a walk-on on our team at USC that was recruited and played for the prior coach, Coach Enfeld, and then I get the job and all of a sudden the dad said, hey, I used

to play with you at Live Oak when you were working for the clippers when we were right out of college. Have you analyzed where it all comes from though? Like where the need to be that competitive, the need to prove yourself. Oh my dad. Yeah. Like my dad was the most competitive person that I've ever witnessed in my life. Like when I grew up and we would play pickup ball, like it was, we had to win, you know, and game point. If the game was to 12 and it was 11-11, that might take 30. My dad would keep fouling on defense until we somehow got the ball back and had the opportunity. Like, he was the most competitive person that I've ever seen in my life.

And maybe Jerry West rivaled his competitiveness slash lunatic will to win. healthy or unhealthy oh for sure with those two probably unhealthy yeah now like Mike Firtello super competitive and Doc Rivers is super competitive and like Chuck Daly

competitively was right up there with anybody but he handled it way different like he was because he was so cool you know and I mean that like not his dress but his personality

he was cool like unfazed unfazed and confidence confidence like if we lost he didn't it it wasn't not like he would take responsibility but he knew he knew what he was doing you know and so i would just say yeah those west and my dad were well when you say unhealthy though tell me what it looks like because you've mentioned a couple of times that it stuck with you the despondents like and you're saying well it's not that he's bringing in home i was right there with him so i was bringing it home too i learned well from of my dad, but when you say it's unhealthy. Yeah, I mean, okay, so if we went on vacation somewhere, my dad would want to go play

pickup ball. Like, let's go to the nearest outdoor court. If we lost or we played bad, because we were always on the same team, it was super cool, my son and I, we'll get these other three, we'll go play. But dinner would be ruined. You know, like, I mean, I don't know how else to say it. Like, I mean, we would not have a good dinner. No words exchange.

That was the problem, probably. We didn't talk. You know, like, we lost and. And he would just steam. Yeah, he was just bitter that we lost. Like, so there, that was what I. Not terribly evolved in that respect emotionally, right? Like, if you're bringing, I understand.

I understand the coaching mentality to a degree. I can't understand it entirely. So a coach is going to bring a loss home. If he's responsible, what could he have done different? There might be some misery at the dinner table. But you're speaking as a family man about the joys of being around your children. And my guess is that you would not like to be that for them with the losses. If you're doing anything with mortality, if you're doing anything with age and experience of,

these moments are fleeting. This time that I have with them is precious. Perhaps I shouldn't ruin it because we missed six free throws. Yep. And I would say that I have learned from that. So Danielle, my wife, we have from 9 to 10 o'clock at night, every night, we watch some show together. No phone, no recruiting. Now, during the season, if I come home after a game, we're going to watch a show together.

It might not be at that exact time because you get home at different. But she'll stay up. We'll watch an hour, she'll fall asleep, and then I'll take it upstairs on the couch to deal with my own internal issues regarding the game. But I don't have a home game, play the game, go to dinner with the staff, talk about the game. I go home to my wife, with my wife, and we watch some type of show that's non-basketball related. and then after we get that 60 minutes in, I dive right back into my feelings and my own world. And that could go throughout the night.

But I have learned through watching my mom and dad, through my first marriage, I've learned that you've got to turn it off. And with my daughter, it's different than my two sons. My daughter doesn't, she doesn't go to many of our games. She's got her own dance thing right now. And so when I come home, we don't really talk about basketball, Mariah and I. So it's different dynamics at different points in my life and with different children.

I would imagine, though, that if I go to your closest friendships, if I go and find shortcuts where it is that I will find all of the people who love you and you love them back, I will find the relationship connection shortcut of we talk best. Like there will be a handful of exceptions and not many there will not not if any well it's a life devoted to basketball through generations and basketball has provided. It's not like you don't understand everything that has been provided for those kids, but do you understand how imbalanced you've had to be in order to chase this pursuit and deem it worthy of all of your time so that you can do things like help kids so that it feels like you know that you you're doing good in the world. I don't think there's any doubt, like the imbalance of, my dad carried a note around from like sixth grade on that said he wanted to be a coach. You know, for me, I knew, like in high school, my dad was an NBA head coach,

and there had never been a father-son head coach duo that, you know. You were the first. and that like so since high school that's what I wanted you got to be pretty driven in high school to think how do I and I'm beating a clock you know because I don't know who Don Nelson and Donnie Nelson Jr. were ahead of where I was in my day and so I was like I was always kind of checking out Donnie Nelson and like is he going to beat me to this kind of goal slash dream that I had competitive even there competitive on dreams but you know it's it's uh i mean it's what i know well you beat him we did when you look at that though sixth grade knows he's going to be a head coach what could you tell people about what are the challenges of working with family because they must it must be it must be fraught with all sorts of things that i couldn't possibly know about yeah so i would say so i spent one year with my dad with the timber wall

I wasn't able to join in year one because my dad said I'm not going to hire you have no experience as a coach because I had been only a general manager of this minor league team at first and then we hired Flip Saunders to be the coach and so I and I kept thinking my dad's going to hire him he's going to hire him and he said hey you got to get coaching experience so I coached for one year joined him in year two with the Timberwolves That year was the greatest year of my life. Like I felt no other than I moved in with my dad, and that lasted like a month.

And then I ended up living in the same complex with Tom Tibido. I lived above him on a floor. He lived below me on a floor. I would pound the floor. We would both go to the Target Center together for practice. Just you and Tibido geeking out on being basketball cavemen. No time, because Tibido is a lunatic. So he's a solitary pursuit.

That guy doesn't even do relationships. Like that guy is just basketball, basketball, basketball. I will say this, Dan. So when I was with Coach Tibbs, and he might not like me. Playboy. He might not like me to say this, but Tom had a girlfriend, and he did do stuff at that point in his, I can only speak for the one year that I worked with Coach Tibbs.

You're just exposing him aside of him. No one has ever seen him before. I'm just saying that he and my dad would go to nightclubs, for sure. Look at that. Coach Tibbs did. It's hard to believe. And Tom did have a life outside of basketball. But yeah, that was, I lived with my dad for one month, and it was too much.

Tell me, what happened? Well, so first of all, my dad had, the first player ever recruited at Ashland College was a player by the name of Gary Urchek. Gary Urchek lived in Minnesota He had gotten divorced His family was out of the house He had a big house So my dad actually lived In the house

Of the first player Every recruited This is a big enough house Where I could join in Which I did And it was 2 o'clock in the morning I would be dead asleep

And my dad would walk in the room Open the door and say hey, E, come on downstairs. Let's check out some tape on Carl Malone and how we might want to defend him. That's pretty cool for like a week, Dan. You get into the 30th day, I'm like, I'm out. And so that's what happened.

I moved out. All right, so, but he was obsessive-compulsive then, right? Like, I mean, there's- But he also, he loved the fact that he he got a joy out of picking up the phone at one in the morning and calling somebody to talk hoops

and then he liked the legacy that that carried on that hey you know Bill Musselman he's going to talk hoops at all hours so was it hard for you to move out was it hard for you to tell my dad I'm not staying here not at more I can't do this because I had no fear

of my dad like there was never I wasn't I wasn't in a house it was a loving household it was hey dad i can't deal with this no more i got to go all right see you can you tell me about the emotion then of achieving what it is your goal had been to get to become the first father-son duo to ever coach uh in the NBA wow no i don't know if anyone's ever asked me that um and i might get emotional because it was my mom it was my family everybody was in my, what was going to be my office, you know, before the press conference, they bring you in, hey, this is going to be your office. You know, we're all in there. It's a celebratory moment.

And I had to ask everybody to leave, including my mom. Hey, I need a moment. So I'm like 10 minutes before walking out, first NBA head job, and I'm on the floor on all fours crying. because I'm like, my dad is not going to see this. Now, he might see it from above, but like my dad is not here to be a part of this. And that, like that, like, and then I had to regroup, you know what I mean? I mean, the Bay Area is a pretty big media market, you know,

and so you're nervous, you got angst, you have all these things going through. And just to think, like, wow, I'm going to be an NBA head coach, something that I felt like my dad's been kind of mentoring me to do this since I was a baby. Like it's probably his thought that maybe this could happen, you know, and just the fact that he wasn't going to be there for it, hurt.

I don't know how else to describe it, but it hurt. And hands and knees, you're being literal there. The pain of your father missing it by how much earlier had. he's been alive. I don't have, I mean, that's hard for me. I'm going to guess he was with Portland Trailblazers when he passed away. I was working for Orlando, so maybe five years. And you get to that moment, and it's the thought of his absence that makes you feel that way. Had you really grieved it before that, or was it sneaking up on you in that moment 10 minutes before? It just, it came out of nowhere. It was not that I was.

thinking of it leading up to my interviews. I'm saying, had you pushed down all of the grief there, not examined it, gone to work, done whatever it is that people do to cope with brief, and then the way that it snuck back up. Like, obviously grief is something that can surprise you at any time, but you hadn't felt it quite like that. Well, no, my dad had like, he had like three funerals because he had coached at so many different spot so i went to two and i didn't go to the third just because i couldn't emotionally handle it um the first one i've never felt like that and i you know i hope i never like it it was the most crushing

um and it and i couldn't accept his death like i did not want um his casket to go below the ground um is i couldn't i couldn't deal with it you know And that went on, probably for like a year, like I would go jogging on the beach where he lived in Sarasota on Ciesta Key, and I would think I would see him. And not to the point of, like people have said, well, oh yeah, I thought, no, to the point of me in a going from a jog to a dead sprint to get ahead of the guy and look and see, thinking that I'm, but then through time, that kind of went away. and then it just, bam, it hit me at this press conference, like how proud he would be, you know, of all the time he poured into me to help me get to that moment. I don't know what kind of spiritual man you are, and I don't mean to suggest that I've learned much of anything about grief, but I have been examining it over two years and when you described the story you described, it is possible, depending on what it is you believe and what it is to choose. choose to think that you could feel in that moment, instead of overwhelming grief from missing

someone, also a semblance of gratitude because they are indeed there. If you're overwhelmed or overtaken by that sensation, if you're willing to believe that the person you're running to catch up is a spirit and source that in that moment, because your father and your love for your father is so alive that he is also there but that's not what that's not what was present for you it was just pain and something you it was just 10 minutes before you're about to go out to realize the dream it's just pain that he's not there to share it with just pain yep only pain probably and then i would say that to your spiritual aspect of my dad anytime something goes wrong it could even be in game it's certainly when I start thinking about changing playing rotations or I always have a

conversation with my dad and what would you do and I get an answer now maybe it's just me making it up in my own head but a couple years ago at Arkansas we went through a rough patch and I took some little time by myself and I said dad what do I do here any any any any told me, play your five toughest guys. Forget the position they play. Just trust me. And I heard like in my heart, my soul, my brain, my dad told me, play the five toughest guys regardless of position. And then I go into the staff meeting and I say, hey, guys, this is what we're going to do. This is what my dad told me to do. And then we go on an elite eight run. But I think in huddles all the time, like in late game, like before the timeout, actually. Ball's going

from one basket to the next. I'm like, all right, if there's a dead ball here and there's a time out, come on, dad, what do we got? You know, and usually gets answered. There's a couple times I haven't gotten an answer, but I usually get an answer. That's lovely, though, the idea that you believe enough to believe that those conversations are real, right? I feel them. I hear them. And again, it's whether it's just a, you know, you could argue whether it's I'm hearing him or it's my imagination. But I'm hearing them. It doesn't matter. Well, it matters to me actually, Dan, because I believe that he's telling me that and I'm hearing it. You know what I mean? But you keep him alive either way, right? Like it's, it's, the reason I say, does it matter

is because I will ask of my brother, I will say, Dave, are you here? And it's, I've never done that before are you here and it is soothing to believe he is like I do hear those same things and I do feel those things and there are things that I don't understand can't begin to understand will go with the rest of my life without totally being able to articulate but in that moment he is there and so if the love for him is there if the pain of that love for him is there then everything that I felt for him is still alive the memories still keep it alive and I too have heard the exact voice that you're you're saying it's not the conversation's not fabricated because you can hear him telling you giving you an answer that wasn't the answer that you had you had questions

you were searching you were looking for a mentor you were looking for advice and his voice was there that keeps it alive no question and and you wrestle how with whether or not the spirituality of the beyond is something that is helping you now as you guide your own children and your family through whatever it is that would resemble the pride of your father no question i mean it's a daily for me like i'm always thinking about him is he with me i know he's with me is he really like i i struggle with that aspect but i do know um in the time of need he always comes through and that i do know and if he doesn't give me a answer. I always kind of chuckle and it's like, all right, he's testing me. You're on your own. You

figure it out. And so I always feel like he's present and with me and still guiding me. Do you remember the moments after you get up off of your knees to go do that press conference? Like you shake that off how you shake it off. I don't even know if that's the right way to phrase what you're feeling there. But like how do you regroup and now present yourself to the public as a new face and voice of a team that's got to have his composure and be respected yeah it's the first thing is to try to get my family in there as quick as possible to get me to like no tears that's that's that's that's the first thought is i can't go before the bay area media you know with any semblance of vulnerability you know no one would understand it i hate that for you guys though i hate that

that you always have to go to the coach speak because this is a caveman world where you cannot trust these cruel people with your vulnerabilities. They are not to be trusted, but it'd be so much more humanizing. It doesn't serve you at all, but it'd be so much more humanizing if people can understand and you could say to people, hey, I got Nick Van Exel and my huddle and the guy thinks he knows more than I do, and I mean, on occasion he might. You can't say any of that. That's true. I think it, like now, I think I could say more of that, not the way you just worded it where it was totally transparent, but I think I saw Coach Daly do it.

I think I do it more now. I think with, you know, when you become, you know, confident, when you get older, when you gained experience you under, and then I do think like with the media, just as I referenced, you know you're maybe not you coach riley's trust with you you know i i can go back and look at people that i saw my dad trust sid hartman with the with the minneapolis star tribune charlie walters who still writes for the pioneer my dad trusted those guys like um i look at like my career bob holt who just passed away with the arkansas demo like i had no problem telling bob whatever, Richard Davenport, who still writes for the Arkansas, like those guys, they're

friends, but it wasn't that way at the start, you know what I mean? And that's, when I think about that first press conference, I didn't know any of those guys, you know, and you're probably right. I probably would have gotten off to a better start now that I'm thinking about it for the first time ever in my life. I'm thinking about what if I would have gone out there and said, hey, I got tears in my eyes because I was thinking about my dad, you know, and how much, probably would have changed the narrative and shown a personal side that probably would have been helpful. So I wish I would have met you. Well, I found generally that in this particular world, in the arena, men are taught to ignore your body, ignore your feelings.

Those things don't matter. The finish line matters. The scoreboard matter. All that matters is result. Show me the baby. Don't tell me about the labor. Like, you grew up in the most hardened form of that if your dad is carrying around a piece of papers from sixth grade that says he's going to be a coach, if he's unhealthy about the way that he's competitive and he raises a boy who idolizes him, you almost have no chance at learning these things through anything other than failures, right, or falling down or learning what you've got to learn. But you know how repressed this environment is.

you are, your tears, you're not, a public crier is not a coach that, Dick Vermeal had the confidence to do it. There are not very many men that I have seen in the world of coaching who are totally confident being like, yeah, these are my emotions. What's the problem? It doesn't keep me from doing my job correctly. And that's probably why we don't see it, Dan, because, you know, if there had been 30 other people prior that had done, maybe it becomes more natural. But it's not weakness, it's strength, to go in front of those people and tell them about the relationship with your father like you're right it's it's backward the way that some of some that we do some of this in sports where tears are weakness and it's meant to be hidden as if

fear wasn't the most human thing as if hurt wasn't the most human thing it seems silly no it's true but like we probably haven't had you know enough conversations about that or been taught that enough you know and I think now I think younger people are being exposed to these conversations of it's okay to be vulnerable and you think about all the mental health stuff that goes on now which is so powerful and so good for like our student athletes like you have to embrace that and encourage your players to go because it's a form of being vulnerable it's a form of sharing and it's a space for help which we all need in reality but men can be bad about asking for. And Stan Van Gundy talks pretty eloquently about not understanding how they'll send the guy into another room for treatment for his ankle problem, but he's just kicked another basketball and frustration into the stands and he's got an anger problem and nobody wants to talk about whether or not that needs treatment or not.

But I think it is now much more so than even like 10 years ago. Well, but imagine your father, if I'm asking your father to describe what tough is. Yep. Imagine your father just receiving the news that somebody needs a mental health day. Yeah, I would say with my dad, that would be his day and age. But then I think back of his conversations with a lot of his players, and I think he was aware of that stuff. and that's why he had such incredible relationships with people like Sam Mitchell.

I mean, my dad was vulnerable too. I mean, he had a picture up in his beach apartment in Sarasota, Florida, of Sam Mitchell. You know, and I'm like, why do you have a picture of Sam up? And he's like, because I love him. You know, so I think that, you know, old school, like I spent a summer with Hughie Brown, you know, And, like, I think what made Coach Brown, like, he was so hard on everybody,

including me as an assistant coach, I'd stand in front of a truck for him. Because he, like, he poured into me. Like, it was hard. It was challenging. It was, I mean, he cursed me out. But out of all the people I've worked for, I'd stand in front of a moving truck for him. You know, and I'd. Because you just knew that he cared, and you understood his way of caring,

and you were doing some of the translations on he's investing in me. Yeah, like he did more for me in one month than any human I've ever been around. Like, he taught me so much. And I felt like when he was going to practice and saying stuff to the players, I think half the time he was saying it to me as a young coach. Like, I don't know if he was or wasn't, but that's what in my soul, that's what I thought. And so, yeah, you can cussing. me out coach brown because you're you're teaching me something every day i appreciate the honesty it's

been a pleasure to talk to you and to watch all your success no matter where you are do you want to take the quiz again see if you do any better on all the places you know what i do though dan and it is important to me is to mention my mom um before we get off the air because i know my mom's going to listen to this and a lot of the stuff is is through my dad with basketball but a lot of the stuff off the floor is through my mom you know and she's like my financial stability is due to my mom her teaching me things um the marketing my mom's family was involved in pepsicola running Pepsi plants so the marketing and trying to fill up a building at arkansas fill up a building in a vet all that comes from my mom so i want to at least get that in

She probably enjoys you talking about your father in that relationship as well, but there is no way for creatures like you and your father to exist unless someone else is doing all the other things that life requires. That's so true. I mean, if you guys, if the musselmans are just doing the work and the women who love them are feeding their terrible, terrible habit of being addicted to this thing that makes them who they are, their identity, there's real love and understanding and understanding

and understanding that your father needed to be doing that to be whole. And I needed my wife, Dan, because we do not make a Sweet 16 at Nevada, ranked 17 straight weeks in the top 10 at Nevada, make two lead eights at Arkansas, three straight Sweet 16s at Arkansas without my wife. She probably has as much to do with our success as I do, because the recruits that we got, she played a big part. Keeping the locker room intact, having guys over for a meal after I've been hard on

him in practice. Advice. Advice. The meaty advice that she's given our players. Strength when you're weak. Draft preparation for interviews that Danielle has helped guys with. You're right. You got me thinking, I.

I'm probably just a mediocre college coach without my wife. Well, you were talking about the loneliness that you felt with the lack of support once you had gotten to one of your dreams. I would imagine that all of this is better because it's shared. All of this, this is such a family affair. The fact that both of your sons are working for you, the fact that you descend from what you descend from, like, what choice does she have, honestly? If she's going to love this man, it has to be with basketball. There's not a choice that loves this man without basketball, correct? Well, the only difference here is when Danielle and I met, I was in my three years not coaching.

And she says all the time, you are so funny. Like, I thought you were the funniest male that I've ever met. You didn't have a care in the world. You always wanted to go on vacation. What happened? I don't know. It's Stan Van Gundamie. Look at you.

You guys cackle from the bowels of hell laughing. It's heaven. You don't understand. And they're looking at you. like you're crazy because you are. Thank you. I appreciate you sharing that insanity with us. It is not unusual for a coach to express some of the things that you're expressing. It just seems like you cannot be fully functioning balanced human beings and be hugely successful coaches if you have to have more time for things outside of basketball and family. There's not

a third thing, right? There's not a third thing that's coming there that... The closest I've ever scenes Chuck Daly. I will say that. That is the closest to the competitive will to win, doing your job, and enjoying life. But he actually won, right? Because the interesting thing to me between the differences in Stan Van Gundy and Pat Riley's addictions is at least I understood why Stan and Jeff kept coming back. They wanted the ultimate thing. But Riley's going to be in that seat 10 years after he's dead because basketball is his identity and he doesn't want. to be anything else. But he's already won, so I don't totally get why the misery would still be the heroin addiction it is, but I'll keep talking to coaches until I find out. So thank you

for spending this time with us, Eric. Appreciate it.