The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Frank Thomas

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

The Big Hurt hits South Beach Sessions. Frank Thomas looks back on his legacy - one held up by professionalism and relentless strive for excellence – from his start as a dominant athlete, to a first-ballot Hall of Fame career, and the real hurt and loss he’s battled along the way. For all of his love for the game and historical dominance in baseball - Frank reveals how he paid the price in injuries, disrespect from management, and betrayal from his peers. Frank shows Dan the brutal truth and strength behind ‘no pain, no gain’. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm excited about this guy. I've admired him for a long time. I've told him so for a number of different reasons. Two-time AL MVP. He's a businessman now. He has been great as a broadcaster, but his baseball excellence makes him super unique. One of five athletes anywhere that has a statue at both his college baseball excellence and his professional baseball excellence. Frank, thank you so much for making the time for us. It's a pleasure, Dan. Thanks for having me today. I want to know a little bit about who you are, how you are, the things that shaped you because I was always fascinated by the roots of how you became A on baseball Hall of Famer

that was that excellent, but also how you carried yourself professionally. It seemed from where I was standing like it was hard to be you and you always carried yourself with uncommon grace. So begin, if you don't mind, by telling me a little bit about Charlie May. Well, it started with Charlie May, you know, I'm going from a small town, Columbus, Georgia, much larger town now. But growing up, my mother, I was a baby of five kids. So being a baby, she just really made sure I was secure every day. I didn't get caught up with what was going on

out in the neighborhood and everything else. I always stayed around. I had good friends, but I never wanted to do what everybody else wanted to do. I was always focused. So for my mom, she made sure I stayed out of trouble. She made sure I was home on time. She made sure I did my homework.

So it all started at home with mom. But as for growing up there and keeping everything, you know, under wraps, but not falling in the same traps, because I grew up in a semi-bad neighborhood, but not a real ghetto neighborhood. You know, I wouldn't call it middle class, but I would put it somewhere in the middle of middle or lower class. A kid doesn't know that though, right?

You don't know that, because the walks of life I came from, I mean, there were lower, lower class, there were, you know, lower middle class, and there was middle class. So for me growing up, I just wanted to stay out of trouble. She was how, as a disciplinarian,

she was the youngest of 14 children? Yes, Yes. So my mom knew a lot about family. You know, when you're talking about family gatherings, mother, aunts, and uncles coming over, it was a huge clan. It was a lot of people, a lot of cousins, a lot of, we had a big family. So you learn a lot from from those those situations and learning about family. And she did what other than your father, because your father was a deacon, a bail bondsman. That seems like a difficult job.

An animal catcher? Yes. I don't know what that is exactly. Yes. It was basically like dog catcher. Dog cats would keep them for the control for the city. But his biggest job, I really feel, was at Georgia Crown, which was a big distributor of alcohol.

He had a huge keg route that he would do for a lot of the bars and restaurants around town. So, Dad was a man of many talents, but he was very stubborn with me. You know, he was the real, real strict disciplinarian. My mom took care of me, but if I ever stepped out of line, you know, Dad was quick to smack me back. So what did that look like?

Explain to me how this balance and this support at home, because I am hugely interested. What you did, Frank, was so difficult. I don't think people know how hard it was to be as excellent as you, to hit 500 home runs in the big leagues, to be the best in baseball for a good amount of time and doing it clean while everyone around you was not doing it clean and going to talk to the Mitchell Report,

being the only active player doing that. Thank you for bringing that up, because it's important to me. But Frank, it was, you were doing naturally what others couldn't do on to me. But Frank, you were doing naturally what others couldn't do on drugs. You were playing, you were surrounded by people who were cheating. Right, but I look at it as the biggest,

strongest guy in the room. So everyone wanted to be the guy that's hitting the ball in the ballpark consistently, bad in practice game, but also getting hits and stuff. Like I was different, I was a different animal. But I'll tell you where all that started. I grew up in a boys club, because both my parents worked nine to five.

So after school at two o'clock, I went to East Columbus Boys Club, and that's where that real competitive sports edge began. And we played everything, basketball, football, baseball, foosball, pool, ping pong. We just had that atmosphere. Were you better than everybody? Because you could have played professional football as well.

Trust me, my brother Michael was three years older, so I wanted to hang with his crowd all the time. So I had to hold my own. I'd always been that young kid, or they'd push me out of the way. So I played basketball against them, football against them, everything. So when I started growing up and getting bigger and stronger and faster, I was not, I guess, intimidated of the older players, because I grew up in that environment, and that made faster, I was not, I guess, intimidated of the older players, because I grew up in that environment,

and that made me who I was. So, wanting to succeed, wanting to be better than everyone else, it started there, trying to compete with older kids. So what did support at home look like when you've got the disciplinarian, you've got a great foundation of love? Yes, great foundation of love, but it was very disciplined.

I saw my other brothers and sisters screw up a few times, and I'm as a baby going, oof, that wasn't pretty. Because back then, parents could put hands on their kids to keep that discipline in line. I didn't want any part of that. I knew what I had to do to stay out of trouble, and I stayed out of trouble because I didn't feel trouble was where I wanted to be. I wanted to be successful. I wanted to be somebody. I wanted to be something

different. So you have six kids. What do you take from your parents and what do you push aside? One of them you came in here couldn't talk enough about somebody that you're saying in your family that you think is going to be a better baseball player than you were. Well I look at I have three boys and three girls. I've been married twice. My first marriage, you know, right in the middle of my career. Things just weren't right. I mean, I had a lot to do with that because of baseball. But I tell people my biggest take of that is be the best father you possibly can be. And I've been that guy. I've been a role model sitting over my kids. I invite them to

everything I do. I keep them with me. Off-season, I always sitting over my kids. I invite them to everything I do. I keep them with me. Off-season, I always had them with me. I care about being a father, because I have good parents who cared about being a good mother and father. And so that's something that I really care about. My wife now, Megan, she really cares about the kids. She's the same way.

She grew up in a great household, who mom and dad were very, very great people with their kids, and they still are today. They taught me a lot about being a good father. Are you the same kind of disciplinarian? I'm a little light on my feet to my dad. You gotta understand when there's not much finances going on, there's a lot more stress.

So I've been blessed to have finances for years and not be as stressed as my father and mother were trying to keep food on the table for a lot of kids. What do you remember about that stress? I've got a number of questions about what you just said. What do you remember about the stress in your household because that sounded like a lot of jobs for dads. Yes.

Mom's an inspector at the mill. Yes. And the kids are a handful. Yes. There were times. There's good times and bad times. High times, we're eating great. Low times, we're not eating as great, but you enjoyed everything your

mom and dad put on the table for you and you respected that and you just did not never disrespected my parents because I kept myself busy with a ball in my hand and that was important more important to me than anything and I felt that will be my way out one day because I wanted to be something to help my mother and father. Well this part's interesting because you for your nieces and nephews, you'll close out a Toys R Us for them. You'll send your father a Mercedes on a flatbed truck. You've tried to buy a home for your mother and she says, no, I'll stay where I am.

Yes. They just wanted me to remodel it. They love the neighborhood we grew up in. I'm like, Mom, Dad, I got money now. Let's let's move to the north side of town. I like no our people are here, our families here. We want to be here. If you want to do something, make this place better. And I did I remodeled the total house for them made it the biggest house on the block. But, you know, mom and dad, they love that respected that and they stay with their people and that was more important to their people too that oh you're not so fancy now you're gonna leave us no my mother and father to my father died and my mother died they stayed in the same neighborhood. I have heard your sister say of your father's death frank has not gotten over it frank has not actually dealt with it i don't know how old those quotes are when she's saying

that I don't know if you've gotten any better at handling that. Well, it's something you never wanna get over because my father would go to every practice, every game. I mean, I went to Auburn University and that was 45 minutes from Columbus, Georgia. My dad was almost at all my practices. That's how big a fan he was of his kid.

So, I respect and love that. And I'm so gracious of it because, you know, most fathers wouldn't do that, especially when you're working nine to five. So, yes, I've gotten over it now because I've matured. You know, I matured, you know, so many years after the game. You get older and you respect, and now I'm starting to lose friends at my age are passing away. So, you start to understand the circle of life. You're not here forever. So what my mom and dad did with me was heroic and love them to death and I will always love them. I wish they were still here. But reality you got to understand. I'm in my mid-50s now. So that's one

of those things that you start looking at your peers and you're starting to see people pass away. It's the first time I've ever done that. I don't have an athlete's bulletproof mentality, right? So something that has served you for a long time is sort of the feeling like, even if you're the big hurt, even if your body can break down, I can overcome. Just recently in losing my brother

and then just feeling my age in other places, the mortality visits you in a way that is unavoidable. It is. I mean, of late, we've lost some greats. You know, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, now Pete Rose, who I just worked with for many years at Fox, and you know, losing him a couple weeks ago, I just, it made me break down because I remember having those conversations with him, you know, where he went wrong and how he's moved forward and, you know, being the guy that he is, because that guy could crack me up like no one else.

I enjoyed working TV with him because I got to really know him. And one thing about him, he never lied to me about anything. So I know other people view him in a certain way, but he told me things that, you know, he needed to tell me that made me feel like this is a great man, because he's been honest with me. He didn't have to be honest with me working with me on Daily Basis. That's why we had such rapport on camera. That's why we were great together on camera

because we had a friendship. As someone who has problems with cheaters and rule breaking, should he be in the Hall of Fame? Well, I don't have a problem with cheaters and rule breakers. I understand most people come from nothing and they will do anything to acquire wealth and whatever it takes. I just wasn't wasn't built that way. But I look at Pete absolutely what he did for the game of baseball maybe never will ever be done. 25 years on the field with all

those hits. I mean I look at I'm in Hall of Fame almost 2,600 hits. Pete had over 4,300 hits. You just think about that. So, you know, and one thing I feel bad about is he always told me, I wish I, you know, get in the Hall of Fame before I die. And that hit me a couple weeks ago that he had passed away and he's not in the Hall of Fame. But he did say Pete Jr. I hope is alive when they get me in. So I'm gonna hold on to that for that guy. I don't know why I would assume this about you because I couldn't possibly know you this way, but It's hard to imagine you breaking down at least in part because when watching you from afar as a professional baseball player

I always found you to be a stoic that that It would be hard to get to you in any way emotionally that you sort of had this perpetual armor on playing in a tough city like Chicago. The columnists were awful to you, like terrible. The things that they were writing felt cruel and misguided and to me had some race stuff in it that made me uncomfortable because you looked lonely to me as an athlete

that the ownership was white, the media was white, the fans are white, most of your teammates are white, and yet you always gave off stoic professionalism. So it's hard for me to imagine things, even like death, getting to you and making you sob Breakdown. Well, I came up a little different. I didn't finish my whole story My dad when he worked at Georgia Crown worked for the richest man in pretty basically, Georgia

He saw me playing sports as a young kid who just passed away. Mr. Don Leibrand He passed away a couple months ago. Mr. Lebron saw me play football a couple of times and he said, hey, little Frank's got something. I want him to come to private school. And he put me in private school when I was a young kid. And I left that private school in the eighth grade because the talent wasn't enough for me. But at my early upbringing through elementary,

all the way through early junior high, I got an education. And I was the only black kid, basically, it was, well, two of us, only two black kids in the entire school. So you're getting two educations. Yes, I got two educations. Yes, but I got to know people. I would go to an all white school, learn that education, but then go back to the ghetto and deal with both sides of the fence.

And I saw racism on both sides of the fence like no other. So I understood life and it's helped me today move forward and watch people make the same old mistakes I've been watching since I was a kid and I just shake my head because there's great people on both sides of that fence and you can't say that everybody's the same because everybody's not the same. And for me, I used that growing up, got to meet people, either white, black, whatever, Latino, it didn't matter to me. I love people for who they are, and I've always been that person.

Was the Chicago press experience as unseemly as it seemed to me from very far away? Do I have it wrong when I say you were a guarded, guarded pillar of professionalism who was hiding a lot of big hurt behind stoicism? I don't think you got it wrong, but I think I was always misunderstood because I was focused.

I was in a zone. I didn't want anybody to bother me. I wanted to stay right here. I wanted to be great. I didn't want to be good. I wanted to be great. And I got to thank Michael Jordan for that because it was his town

and Michael Jordan could do no wrong and This big kid came up and starting to set records doing everything and they put that same pressure on me out of the box Oh, you got to win six championships. You got to do this and it's like baseball is not that type of sport You can't give me the ball and I can score every night you get to the playoffs. They're pitching around you They're doing everything a lot of good great things in baseball has to happen for you to have success So I look at Michael Jordan experience because I got to watch it firsthand. Most incredible basketball player will ever see. And I respected it. I started, I backed up out of that, you know, because I said they're hammering me because they think I'm supposed to be like Michael Jordan. And

you find out I had a lot of success, but to win championships you got to have a foundation. You got to have a team with 25 that that really all-in and you got to have both sides of the fence you got to have pitching got to have defense you got to have great hitters around you and that's how you want a championship so I had no disrespect for any of those guys I just wish they had to talk to me more because I'm a great person to talk to and I don't mind having conversation the columnists were Jay Mariotti and Skip Bayless. They were adventing the idea,

like they started the idea of sports debate television and they were critics who were loud. And I remember this in baseball specifically, baseball players did not have, athletes in general, a lot of respect for people who are critical in print and then don't show up in the clubhouse. That's more important than anything. Jay never came to the clubhouse skip never came to the clubhouse skip came to clubhouse one time There wasn't a great situation. It was in Cleveland and the late Tony Phillips Torma I hate to say it but Torma no asshole right in front of me and I was like hey, I was a Tony

It's okay. He said no the hell is not okay. He went off on skip That's the last time he came to the, to the locker room. And, uh, but I forgive him. Forget. I mean, I saw skip many days at Fox when I was working at Fox and hello. And you know, nothing wrong with that. I get, he had a job to do. Uh, I just wish he had to spend more time having real conversation and doing interviews to get to know me because getting to know me, it's not hard. And from afar, people think big black famous, famous, lot going on, interracially married, something's going on with that guy.

Yeah, focus. Something wrong with that guy. Focus makes him aloof, makes him distant. Thank you. Makes him, he's trying to concentrate on baseball. It's hard to be excellent at baseball. I may not be as warm as you need me to be at, you know, at 45 minutes before game time.

Thank you, Dan. I'm just, I was being pulled a million different directions. You know, had one of the first baseball players along with Kinger with Jr. to have big marketing campaigns, and that went all year long. There was no downtime. So out at the end of the season, I'm doing stuff for Reebok. I'm going around the world, to Asia, to England, wherever

they wanted me to go, promoting another brand. So like I said, I wasn't hard to get along with. People just didn't take the time to really get to know me. And there wasn't time though, because you just mentioned your first marriage. Your focus had to be such on what it is that you were doing to remain excellent at it. And also, all the business and opportunity

that comes with arriving at success, you're saying I couldn't be the husband I needed to be. Or what the game demanded of me, and I wasn't mature enough. Thank you. And like I said, once again, I gotta thank Michael Jordan for that, because Michael has started doing something

no one has ever done, to market and promote a sport. And they wanted to do the same thing with baseball when I got with Reebok. So it took a lot of time from family times, and the same thing happened to his family. He ended up getting divorced and there's no happiness when you're never seeing your wife, it's tough. You grow apart and that's just what happens.

So like I said, I tell people, the best thing you do right now is be a great father. I've been a great father for many, many years and I hope to be a great father for many, many years to come. The balance is hard though. I'm not even sure it's possible. Maybe balance is hard though. I don't even, I'm not even sure it's possible to, maybe it is, maybe some people have spiritual maturity and enlightenment that allow them in their early 20s to figure out both adulthood and being a

Hall of Fame player. It seemed to me that what you went through in your 20s and early 30s seemed to me uncomfortable and that it would require a lot from you in a lot of different ways. You remember it how, when you're looking at the 15 years of you being great at this. You know, I look at it as not being perfect. You know, you come in and out of college, all these expectations, you wanna get there,

you wanna do it, you wanna make that money, you wanna be famous. I would say the first seven years, I never got caught up and been a leader. I never got caught up and been a guy that everybody wanted me to be because I was doing stuff to try to be something different. And I sat down around my 28, 29 years and like, hey, it's time to become a leader. It's time to lead this team. Because I was hearing people, he's not a leader he's all about

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Was there time to enjoy it though or was it too busy just pursuit, pursuit, pursuit, pursuit? I didn't enjoy the first 10 years like I should have. But I got older, I had much more fun in the game. I remember my favorite year in baseball was 2006 with Oakland A's. And it brought something different out of me. Everybody thought I was done. I ended up having my best year in a very long time because I was happy again I was relaxed. I didn't deal with the Chicago media every day, you know

Cuz that all that became a see that we can fire him up. Let's push it How many buttons we can push? Ah, you know, that's what that was all about I got to Oakland on the West Coast everybody's laid back. I went six straight weeks and didn't do anything There was no bullying. There was no nothing And I'm like, are you kidding me? Fans are in the parking lot going, don't worry Big Hurt, we know who you are. We know it's gonna come soon. And you know what, I went home that night,

I told my wife Megan, I said, it's time for me to turn this thing on. Like I've never turned it on. And I ended up having one of my best years of my career. And from that day forward, I hit like 400 all the way through and I've been like another 35 home runs or something crazy and had an unbelievable season. Ended up 41 home home runs like 118 home runs at 118 RB eyes as a 36 37 year old. So for me, that was I felt blessed and it showed my true talent again, just by being

happy. That's a bit startling to me because it makes me wonder how much better you might have been the first 14 years of your career, the first 10 years of your career. If you'd been, if you could have absorbed I'm happy and grateful instead of, you know, making your world as small as that baseball, which is what you did for eight years

because of how hard it is to hit just a baseball, and then you decide you're gonna be a leader. But when I'm saying to you that it all felt very pressurized, and from where I was standing, it seemed unpleasant to be you, even as you were having all of the success, because it just felt lonely.

I can just tell you right now, Ozzy had told me about the first two years, you're in trouble. And I'm like, dude, what are you talking about? He said, you hit 350, 360, 40 home runs, 130 RBIs. You can't have a down year. If you don't achieve those numbers, especially in the city of Chicago,

they're gonna lambaste your ass. And he was right. You know, and I still have a great relationship with Oz. We do TV together, but he told me, and he'll tell you that on TV, you did too much at an early age after those seven straight years that no one has ever seen before.

It's just, you know, you can't keep up with that. I don't care who you are as a player, especially on the baseball field, but that's how locked in I was. And I laugh at Ozzie every day because he told me that my second year in the game. Frank, do you realize though, from my position, how much it sucks to hear a baseball Hall of Famer say,

I couldn't really enjoy being a Hall of Famer because of everything that was bashing against me. It's what it looked like from down here. Right. Well, you know, like I told you, when you're the biggest guy, they talk about David and Goliath all the time. I was Goliath and I was supposed to do those things. After you do it for seven straight years, you're supposed to do it every year. I don't care if you're getting older. I don't care if you're slowing down. You have set that standard. And when you set that standard, people look at that standard and say, hey,

that's where you need to be and that's where you gotta be. So, and for me, I took it upon myself to be that guy. And when things weren't as good, I remember getting divorced in 97. That was my first down year in baseball, and it wasn't really a down year. I hit like 30 something home runs, I hit 277 and drove in 100 runs. But everybody was like, oh, he's finished. He's watched. Something's going on.

He's lost his focus. You know, I'm like, I'm going through divorce with three young kids. So I was going to the plate like this every day because it was left or right, stuff over here, stuff over here, not being able to focus on that little white baseball. So for me, once all that cleared there,

I was back being who I was. And that was tough on the organization because that got a lot of organization strain going with me in the front office, managers, everything else. So I was a little defiant there for a year and a half because I had to be. Because I'm like, why are you guys treating me like this when you saw what I did for your first seven years? I'm going through something, everybody goes through things. Once it's over, you're gonna get the player back that I was, and I had to prove people wrong every day. So after that point forward, I felt like I was always

proving people wrong and not being that happy player that I possibly can be. That's super interesting. The Defiant served you though, right? Yes. Going in there with a bleep all you, do you know how hard it is to be as good at this as I am? None of you are as good at your jobs, none you they took it for granted they took it for granted they

really took for granted of being locked in in the zone for 162 games a year they they took it for granted and they've tried to replace it they tried to replace it forever and a couple years they got away with it but majority time they did so as for me you know that's one of the things I do regret is not finishing my career in Chicago because I felt I had earned that. And to be released after the World Series in 2005 with a broken ankle, coming back healthy because they knew I would be healthy again. They thought I was done, but I knew I wasn't done.

I just needed to take some time and get healthy. And that explosion happened in Oakland. And it finished out the rest of my career until I was 40 years old. I mean, I'm proud to play this game for so long, you know, 22 to 40. That's a long time playing a baseball season, I mean, a baseball career. So I was blessed with it,

and I tell people all the time what a ride it was. I enjoyed the ride. Yes, there were some turbulent times, but that's okay. It made me a stronger, more professional, and a tougher person. You were pretty professional, Frank. Well, I always cared about being professional. I always cared about the other man.

You know, I always cared about respect and respecting the game. That's why when I hit a home run, you saw me sprint around the bases. I cringe now watching guys hit home runs and flipping bats and all that other crazy stuff. You hit the ball pretty far. I hit it consistently pretty far.

You know, like I'm saying, it's just like, been there, done that. I don't want to show up the other man, because they feel just as bad as you give up a home run. They got to feed their family. They're in trouble. Too many of those, they're going to be out of here. But now the game is all about fun. I get that.

But the flipping of the bass disrespecting another man, I still have a hard time with it. You would have preferred to end your career in Chicago with the White Sox. Yes. No knock on Oakland or Toronto experiences. Oh I love those experiences don't get me wrong I'm so happy I had that experience at Oakland because it revived my career and probably got me to the Hall of Fame. Toronto was a great experience. You were already in the Hall of Fame. I just wish I had more to give to Toronto because that organization was first class they treated me like a king and I gave them everything I had I was just hadn't gotten old and my you know

Authorized my ankles. I just couldn't do what I could do early in my career So I had soft to Toronto. They they were patient with me as long as they possibly could yes I could have gave them average numbers, but like I said once you set the bar so high People not looking to give up apologize. Well, that but you're 40 I know but when you set that bar so high people can't can't understand you've been an average player they can't okay you were close to 40 yeah but still give yourself a break they still want to big numbers okay my last but my first year in Toronto I had 27 home runs and 96 RBI's for a 39 year old I mean that's pretty dang good it It is pretty good.

They should be happy with that. Were you made sad by Oakland losing baseball or everything happening in Oakland at the end? You know I'll be honest it sucked because that fan base is tiny but they support you know they they're screaming and yelling at the top of their voice every night. I understand it because it was time to get out of that stadium, it's time to move up. And I think going to Vegas will be special, will be a special moment for the organization. I do think half of that fan base still will support and they will go to Vegas because it's a good time

and it's close enough that they can get there, spend three, four days, go home and it's drivable. So I just, I really feel Oakland having a big time situation like the Raiders like the the WNBA team and the Golden Knights Trust me. I lived in Vegas for 15 years a special town and they care about sports 24-7. They're gonna be fine I just really feel the backlash is they lost the Raiders and they lost Oakland A's is gonna be tough for the city Oakland and I you know, I feel bad for it adjored the city of Oakland and they revived my career. So yes, they were the best, smallest crowds I've ever seen in my life because it didn't matter.

The energy was unmatched. You're a champion. So you're saying the time in Oakland was the most joyful time? I'm not saying necessarily the best time. No, no, no. It was my favorite season of my career. It really was. I had a young team that re-energized me. Guys like Nick Swisher, Bobby Crosby, Jason Kendall, Milton Bradley, who was crazy but fun. Who else had on that team? Jay Payton. I mean, we just had

a team of guys that just cared. Mark Ellis. I mean those guys really cared about playing the game. It wasn't about money out there. It was about winning. And I had fun with those guys and they just needed Mark Kotze who's managing now. You know, those guys were special guys and that's why we played so well. And I'll be honest with you, I think we could have got to the World Series that year if we didn't have that five day layoff like these guys about to have to start the World Series that year if we didn't have that five-day layoff like these guys about to have to start World Series now. It's crazy though to say that that season was your happiest ever when you're a champion. Every time I ask an athlete what was the most fun you ever had they do some revisionist history and

they say the year that I won the championship because they got the ending right doesn't mean that the whole year was fun up until the ending. It's crazy to hear you have a non-championship year as your most joyous year. But it makes sense. Honestly, I mean, what Billy Beane does out there and what Billy Beane did that year, I've never seen a general manager bring guys up ready to perform. I don't care how young they are. They can come pitch seven innings, send them back down, bring another one up, bring a bat

in who can do something to help us. We had a team full of that and we had Ron Washington at the base coach who made the game fun daily I mean, I've never been around a coach and people like what's the magic of run Washington? Just just think about this I'm always the first guy there every day and he's always the first guy there Ron was sit there with his long white underwear with his cigarette Get you going every day. What happened to you last night big hurt a boy stuck it to you And I can hear you run and laugh, you know, but that's the motivation he provided on a daily basis. I had fun again, man.

A lifer, a baseball lifer. I had fun again. And that whole clubhouse was like that. It was about winning. It wasn't about who's got the biggest check. It was about winning. And we didn't care about anything else and we had a lot of fun. I can see it in your face. And that's why we had a great team. That's cool. Do you have a best Milton Bradley was crazy story because there are a lot of those. Yes. There are a lot. I had a great one. Kid Mockin was sitting there the seventh day, one day Milton had a bad day. He had

struck out three times already. He walks off the field, goes up to clubhouse. He's I'm done for the day and I'm like what man? I'm done hurt. I'm done. So he walks up to clubhouse, took a shower in between innings. We're like about to start clubhouse, took a shower in between innings, we're like about to start the inning, and Noah's in right field. He just quit. He just went home. And Michael was like,

Frank, I was like, go! I said, Ken, it's over, he's going home. He took a shower, he's gone. He's like, what? So it was as long as in between innings, because we had to get off the bench, warmed up to go, to get out there, and that was the funniest Milton Bradley story of my time.

He just quit. He just quit. He's just like, I can't help you guys today. I'm done. I'm done. I went up, took a shower, went home. So you're saying he didn't quit. He was just self-aware.

He didn't have it that day. No, man, man of his words. That was unbelievable. It really was. I'm done for the day. You're not even mad. You totally understand it. No, because he gave you everything you had every day.

He was a hell of a player. No, he had a little more there. There was a little more required of him that he was not giving you at the end of that day. Some days he couldn't get out of his own way, but I'm telling you, what a ballplayer who cared about playing the game of baseball. Let's go back for a moment to what you were saying

about being in an all-white high school and just how you grew up. I believe that a lot of people look at you and your physical size and imagine that a holy man reached into a crib and just gave you an assortment of athletic gifts. Amateur draft in 86, you go undrafted and I would imagine that right around there, maybe a little earlier, is when Frank Thomas develops, again, observing from afar, don't know this about you, a work ethic that he would put up against anybody. Yes, that really hurt me in 86, not getting drafted.

I was the best player in the area, and six or seven guys in that area got drafted. I had no idea what happened. I was the biggest, strongest, fastest. I already had signed a football scholarship at Auburn University I guess they thought back then big guys like me didn't play baseball tight end. Yes. They were like a football player playing baseball I remember talking to the late cam bona fay and cam said, you know at the time I thought she was just a football player trying to play baseball I knew you could hit the ball consistently and hard but you know didn't think you were in a bit of baseball player

You already signed that football scholarship. We passed and I was like shocked because they could sign me out of high school for anything. I would play baseball. But Pat Dodd gave me a chance in football. They grew me up there. They worked my butt off. I got bigger, faster, stronger, toughened me up a lot. You know, I tell people, try to block Andre Bruce every day. As a freshman going to college and a man who was in the number one draft pick in the draft, you grew up in a hurry. You would have been a professional football player. I could have played in NFL but it wouldn't have been long. I mean I just you know three years and out was not enough for me. A baseball, Pat Dye told me himself, Pat Dye retired me from football. He said my team is

four deep in every position. What I saw in the baseball field with you, he watched me for like two straight weeks. He said I've never seen anything like it from a big man. He said baseball could be your career. It could be 15 to 20 years. That's how long you could play at the next level with your size, strength, and athletic ability. He was right. So God bless him. You know Coach Ty made that decision for me. He kept me on football, ball scholarship. He kept me there. So nothing changed for me and my family. He knew, he loved my parents. Nothing changed, I just played baseball.

You did get drafted in the first round after going to college, but going back to being undrafted, why were you undrafted if you saw six or seven players in the- And it was like 50, 60 rounds back then. I had no idea what happened. I had no idea what happened. I have no idea what happened. The men upstairs had a plan for me.

And it was gonna be bigger and better than coming out of high school because I never probably would have got that growth in the minor leagues. You know, you think about the physicality of the SEC football, been in that weight room, you know, lifting three, 400 pounds, you know, growing up. I, baseball became very easy

after playing SEC football for two and a half years. What was the relationship in and around Bo Jackson there at the time? Well, Bo was, I didn't get to play with Bo, but Bo was a senior that year, and that's when he took the trip to Tampa Bay. I was supposed to play my freshman year with Bo. It was disappointing because I had lived in Columbus.

I used to go over and watch him all the time. I had never seen an athlete like that never his speed his size that the way there's a tenacity it was just I'd never seen anything like that on the football field so but I got to play Major League Baseball with him I just saw him last week he still gives me a hard time but Bo's my guy I don't care I told him last week he's not so you know I love you even though you're a ho to me all the time you know why is he giving you a hard time? How can anybody's been given Frank? Both both of both the tough. He's a tough son of a gun, but you're a Hall of Famer. You're the big hurt

What do you mean? I don't imagine anybody giving you a hard time. Jackson was probably the most athletic guy of our time of our time Football baseball could dunk a basketball could do mean he's, if you see him hunt and shoot a bow and arrow, he could do that professionally. It's like the guy is gifted talent. I feel sad because I think we got robbed of seeing his greatness for a long period of time. But you saw him with the Raiders, you saw him with the Royals. Just a mix of talent that you probably never see again. that he could do it all. He really could. We just saw the All-Star Game in basketball and it

was great, but you know what would have been better? Watching the game with the All-Star of light beers, Miller Lite. Make moments like watching the game even better with Miller Lite, the great tasting light beer for people who love beer. It's always the perfect time for friends, family, and a great tasting light beer. Taste like Miller time. Miller Lite is brewed for taste. It hits different than other light beers. The taste you can depend on. No games, no gimmicks. Just a great light beer for people who like beer. It has simple ingredients like multi-bally for rich, balanced, talking no flavors, and the iconic golden color. The original light beer since 1975 and still the best one. Miller Take me through now. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. Take me through now, you get drafted and you go to the minor leagues

and you're feeling how about things in the, are you, you're obsessed, right? Because you didn't really answer the work ethic question. There was nobody who was outworking you, right? That's second to none. My work ethic was crazy. I looked like a football player my entire baseball career. You know, I would go in legs one day, arms next day,

but it was like intense. And I wasn't blocking 300 pound linemen anymore. But I cared about physical, because I felt if I'm physically prepared, every hand out coordination, all that came easily for me. So that's what you saw with me on the baseball field. A guy big, strong, faster than everybody else, basically hitting a small baseball.

And that's why consistently I could do what I could do. But what was the level of obsession? Oh, I was obsessed. First guy there, last guy to leave. But I, like I said, working out, wanting to be great. I've always wanted to be great. I didn't want to be good, I wanted to be great. And that pushed me my entire career.

And that's why I accepted, you accepted, like I said from the media, because they knew how obsessed I was. So they were happy to take jabs if I go 0-4 for a couple of days, or 0-3, 0-4. What's wrong with Frank? Why, why, why? No other players went through that.

It was just, and I mean, I remember Jerry Manuel as my manager. I mean, that was his out most of the time. If team's struggling, Frank's gotta do more. Cause he knew I accepted that. I was mad at him a of the time if team struggling Frank's got to do more You know cuz he knew I accepted that you know I was mad at him a lot of times But he would do that and that would just send the media right to me like what the heck's going on you do more I'm like, you know, okay, I'll deal with it. So we had a couple conversations about that

But hey I mean he felt that that great way to motivate the team and get the team going all he had to say was Frank needed Do more and I had a had a good time doing it some days, and some days I didn't. This is the part I don't get though, Frank. I keep saying versions of it seemed like it was hard to be you. And you're not taking any of victimhood there. You're not taking the bait on that.

Because I'm looking at it, and I'm like, man, this guy could use some positive reinforcement. It would be nice if this guy wasn't getting all the pride he was getting from the stat sheet and it came from human warmth of he's being surrounded, but all you cared about was the admiration and respect of your peers, it would appear, and that you had.

Biggest man on the field. You look at Aaron Judge right now, and I watch it and I just shake my head. I mean, this guy's put up astronomical numbers year in and year out, and when he's in a slump the world is stopped He's not working hard. Something's wrong with him. What's going on? Oh, wow, you look at his numbers like are you crazy? Are you crazy what this guy's doing and I feel for him sometimes because I know he's going through that same thing and

He's consistently done it over and over and over his numbers are ridiculous This have you explored when you say I had to be great, good wasn't one of the options? Have you explored what's happening there? Like how much does that have to do with your dad? How much does it have to do in the childhood? Is there some not good enough in there? Like what's happening that's making you,

someone, it's not okay for me to just be good, I'm gonna have to be better than everybody. Well, growing up with not having everything you really want and knowing to be better than everyone else in the field, you can always have what you want. You can always fit in where you wanna fit in by being that guy. And it drove me. It drove me to be obsessed to be great. I'm sorry, I tell guys, I tell my son now, be obsessed being great.

And he is, it's kinda crazy. He's, and some days I'm like, okay, just take a break. No, let's go. You know, that's the way he is now. He wants to be great. So for little Frank, I'm like, I'm coaching him daily. Um, hopefully I, I tell people not to overhype your kid because I never want to do that. But what I'm seeing and watching them respond right now, I'm seeing this on a day-to-day basis, I think he's got a chance to be in a great one. I betrayed a confidence by saying that you said

on the way in, I just can't believe it, that he might be better than me. And I know you probably don't want to put those expectations on him. I just couldn't believe you were saying it though, because there are very few who have ever been better than you, so the idea that your son would be able to do that was a bit jarring.

Well, I teach him the same way I was taught. He uses a line-to-line hitter but he's a lefty lefty. That's that's the difference. You know he'll be hitting you know 60% time against right-handers 70% time against right-handers. That's just what it is. I just I wish I could have hit lefties all the time. You know I mean I you're talking about the numbers I had I probably would have hit you know 360, 370 if I had left-handed hit is all the time like a left-handed hero and gets the right-hand pitcher. So Watching him hit and watch him respond Yeah, I don't think he'll be the the power guy that I am but I think he between 30 and 40, you know

But I consistently looked at myself as 40 to 50 and they didn't give me that kryptonite inside fastball that far inside, I would have hit 50 consistently. So I tell people now, I watched the game and I'm like, oh, these guys are complaining about a ball a little down over the plate or whatever else. If I'd have consistently got that ball out of the plate, there's never, you know, that little box, that little shadow box there, I wish I could have got that ball in the box

all the time for a strike. I tell you that right now. It would be unbelievable. Your plate discipline was extraordinary. I tell you that right now. It'll be unbelievable. Your plate discipline was extraordinary. Uh, you, the idea of being great instead of good is as simple as I wanted things and there was real freedom. If I could be better at sports than everyone else, I could have the real

freedom of getting anything I want from life. Yes. It's important. You know, I tell guys, you just want to be great. I mean, I didn't second guess anything. I just wanted to be able to say, hey, I'm landing on the table every day. And I did it for my family. I did it for my friends. I just wanted to be consistently great for the organization. I wanted to win. Well, first of all, it's about winning because I never really lost in my life. Always high always high school champions, college SEC champions.

When I got to the Major League, it was about winning. And I got to the White Sox, we were at Doorman at the time. And within like five years, we were a team everybody was talking about. Winning the championship, actually winning it, joy or relief? It was sucked because I was injured, 2005. I played a little over a month that season. I had a huge impact. I had 12 home runs and 12-13 home runs in like 30 days.

But I knew that team was gonna win the World Series. That was the first time I looked at a team that had just as good as pitching, as hitting, defense, relief. Everything was there. And I came back early. So I knew that I was taking a chance of coming back refraction and ankle. The doctor said I needed two more months of healing. But I told Herm Snider that year, I said, Herm, this team is going to win it. I said, I'm not going to miss this. I got to play on this team. And I ended up playing, and then the rest of the year I basically was a coach.

I really helped my teammates get better. So it was humbling, driving the bus for so many years in that White Sox uniform to be on a bus rider down the stretch in the World Series, but it made me a better teammate You know, like I said before I watched guys sit on the bench all the time didn't think much of it But it's hard to sit on the bench and not make an impact as you used to making and watch success happen So, you know, I usually not talk about it all the time But I think it made me a better man that made me a better person better man and that next year I went to Oakland,

healed, I was able to do that. Because that year I helped coach, and I helped coach a lot of young kids. I helped get them better. Extra VP every day. We're out there working on things. Nick Swisher, he couldn't hit a change up. You know, I'll get him out there early,

make him hit every ball over the shortstop head. And before long he was starting hitting change ups. And you know, not trying to pull and yank. He was starting to get line drives hit 33 home runs that year so I like I said, I I watched these guys I had a lot of fun with those guys and 2005 was really maturing and growing up for me. Your son is now getting all the joy of that coach. Oh, yes He is he's getting your but you're not coaching any that's where you're coaching. Yeah, he's getting all of it Yes, he is. I help other kids around if they want it. But I'm saying he's the one that's getting.

Day to day basis, yes. What do you regard as the greatest things that you've overcome in your career? Like the. Injuries, injuries. I tell people, and this is gonna blow your mind, all the numbers I put up were done in 16 years. I had 19 and a half years,

I was injured three and a half years of my Major League career and I tell people everything I did was within 16 years. So I look at my numbers of 16 years if I'd have had those extra three and a half years of playing you know you're talking six something with you know crazy. Frank you're one of the all-time greats. Well I'm just saying people think I just played nine and played 19 years I played 16 full years on the field. Rested three and a half years I was injured. So the injuries are just because my will

doesn't help me at all here. Usually I can will myself into- No, the football hurt me. I had a bad ankle from football that started there. I had ankle surgery out of high school and then I had another scope job. So that hurt me down the line from playing football.

So that's what little Frankie was like, dad, I don't wanna play football. He's very good at football. He said, I don't wanna play anymore football. He said, I wanna play baseball only. So, you know, I'm here to coach, but I understand staying healthy is everything. If you can stay healthy on the field

with great, incredible talent, you can do a lot of great things in this game. I don't think people understand how flatly inhumane 162 games and that travel schedule is. Can you explain, can the big hurt explain how much pain he was always playing in? Because once you're in, at your size, once you're playing game 130 of a season,

waking up in a different hotel room, there's just a pain you get used to. Well, you start chewing Tylenol like it's tic tacs and skittles, you know what I mean? But bottom line is, my first seven years, I didn't miss many games at all. You know, I was playing 161, 162 consistently, and it takes a toll on your body,

and that's how injuries happen. But I always felt I needed to be on the field. I don't care if I'm making a huge impact that day, but I'm taking pressure off the guys around me, and we got a chance to win baseball games. But how much pain were you in? I was in a on the field. I don't care if I'm making a huge impact that day, but I'm taking pressure off the guys around me and we got a chance to win baseball games. But how much pain were you in? I was in a lot of pains. I played many hurt days on the baseball field.

But that comes with football. So my mentality was, if I got a jog the first, but I'm in that lineup, it helps this team win. So it helped. And it helps set a culture in our locker room that if I can, the biggest guy on the team who's doing the most damage normally is playing hurt hurt other guys can't complain about themselves been hurt Where are the places not just the business of baseball?

Maybe this is also a broadcasting question or the other places where you do business. You're an entrepreneur now Where are the places that business have hurt you hurt your feelings? I Don't I really don't know I've been very blessed I'm still you know I got a new GenX campaign when they first brought this thing to me I thought it'd be over within two years we've been 10 years straight as the number one Vitality product for men and I had no idea this thing has grown and people look at me now walk to the airport hey there's a new GenX man you know it's not Frank Thomas the baseball, it's the new Jennings man.

So, I mean, I've been blessed. I've had a great baseball career, and now I've hawked products with some of the best companies in the country, and I've had a lot of success. So for me, I've always wanted to breed success, and I believe that I can do things that others can't do because I am who I am.

And like I said, there's nothing fake here. There's no fraud here. This is real. And I love people and I love the fans. The fans have made me who I am. And that's why I used to sign autographs until the last kid leave. Because once you go up that mountain, a lot of guys come crashing down when it's over.

For me, I've walked down Gracely for years and I love that. And that's the biggest joy I have in life is walking down that ladder and people still knowing hey that's Frank Thomas there's a big hurt. I retire in 2009 and I tell people that and I'm just as well known today as I was in this almost 2025 as I was in 2009 and that that says a lot about the person. My question was slightly leading in this regard. I imagine that you were hurt not trying to get out of, trying to be with the White Sox in a way that was most dignified in respecting and remembering your contributions to that franchise,

but also not knowing the specifics of how it is or why it is your run at Fox ended, or if there was another answer outside of that that might be triggered for you where you would think, oh, here's where I took business a little personally. Well, I mean, starting with the White Sox, I just think, you know, Kenny Williams and I got off on a bad foot when he became general manager. We were friends before.

I think one of the first days he said, I'm taking over as general manager. Things need to be done. You might have to take a pay cut. And I took that like, whoa, are you nuts? And I handled it the wrong way. And we became a little argumentative there. And then I said, well, why don't you just trade me?

And that never went over well, you know, because he knew I was a cornerstone on that team and taking over as general manager, you're not going to get rid of your cornerstone right away. And so I just think that put up a bravado there that was negative from the start. Who's gonna lead this team? Who's gonna be in charge?

Exactly, Ken and I had a great relationship before that. When he ran the Monalit, we were great. His father was great, I loved his family, but we got off on the wrong foot when he became general manager. What did you handle poorly there? I don't remember the details. Just by saying, maybe you just need to trade me.

But is that the way to handle it poorly if you're being asked to take a pay cut? No, because I was a franchise guy. And you know, when the general manager come in, he can't lose a franchise guy. What are you gonna tell the public? Oh, I just traded the best player on the team? No, it's hard to do that.

But why is he telling the best player on the team he's gotta take a pay cut? Well, it went downhill from there. And it shouldn't have, because I've already said respect for him, and I think generally he had respect for me, and which came more of a pissing match in town and the media loved it and they would always put us against each other. And it went down a hill that it shouldn't have.

Later as we both matured in our jobs, we realized what the hell's going on. But I think it was too late at that point because it was the last couple of years. But as for him, when he was released last year, people thought I was gonna have a field day and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, I don't disrespect people like that. That's just not who I am. I respect him. I thought he brought a championship to 2005 to the White Sox.

I took my hat and respected him because he did a hell of a job. He had a job for a very long time in the city of Chicago. But as for the organization, I thought it was time when that whole regime was over, I thought it was time for them to bring me back in a front office position because I see the game differently than a lot of other people and I know I could have been had a huge success in the front office and helping them do some things. But it just has never happened. But I'm not gonna lose any sleep on it.

I mean, I've been around doing TV with them, doing local stuff. But like I said, I got a lot of pride for myself and respect. That I just don't let things hold me down like other people do. I'm not gonna go in the corner and go, they don't want me around. No, I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna keep living my life in who I am and build a positive effect on as many people as you probably can. As for Fox TV, that was kind of devastating.

I look at that, ten years we did this with the ratings. Straight up. Yeah, we had this with the ratings. Straight up. Yeah, we had one of the most incredible postseason shows ever with different parts, but I was part, Ken Burkhart and I was there the entire time. And I had one year left on my contract and I was looking for a big raise like everybody else.

You go ten years a decade with somewhere. Didn't happen, so I guess it was time to release me and they did. I just, it was, I felt like a gut punch Because I'm like whoa, I think I thought I was one of the main, you know mainstays on the show But it ended up not been that way and team moves on I mean, it's a you know TV business the agent driven business and Certain agents have a lot of power and they have other clients and they can move things around

That's just how it goes. So I'm not Disrespecting anyone anyone or upset about it anymore. I was upset for last year but it was time for me to go back into the tube shed and say hey break out some more of those tools of yours and figure out what you want to do now. Who's scoring big in the NBA this season? You are with all the new ways to get in on the action at DraftKings Sportsbook. An official sports betting partner of the NBA. From monster slams to dishing the rock to cleaning the glass, get behind your favorite players and the prop bets you can make on DraftKings, the home of NBA player props.

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see dkng.co.au. Both of these places that you've mentioned have a certain disrespect in them when you are somebody who obviously respect is very important to you I saw again just now in the original part of that story You still get indignant about the idea of being asked to take a pay cut like this is I mean Well, the number was what what I did was historical. Like how do you tell a historical player he's gonna take a pay cut? I mean, are you serious? Why would I do that?

You know, I'm not asking for more money. I never was paid what I was supposed to be paid by the organization. So you're asking me for a pay cut? I'm like, are you kidding me? That's what it was about. You know, like I'm still way underpaid for what I do on a daily basis.

So, you know, it wasn't one of those things that disrespect and saying, oh, I'm not taking, you know, it wasn't one of those things that disrespect and saying, oh, I'm not taking no pay cut. It wasn't one of those things. It was like, I was already, I always felt underpaid. So you tell me to take a pay cut, I just, you know, I got things off on the wrong foot and it shouldn't happen.

The second one has some disrespect in it too, though. It sounds like I don't want to make any- No, it's like I said, I felt I deserved a lot more money over there and I didn't get it. You know, I just, you know, it was time to move on. They brought in Derek Jeter, who I deserved a lot more money over there and I didn't get it. I just, it was time to move on. They brought in Derek Jeter, who I have a lot of respect for and nothing but I talked to him before he took a job.

I said, well, some days you gotta deal with some stuff you might not wanna deal with. But they couldn't replace me with a better player. You know what I mean? He was respected captain of New York, big media town, big media market for national TV. So, you know hands off I you know, I got to move on but why was it devastating what what was their disrespect in it? And I'm not trying to know. Did you get an explanation? No, I didn't get an explanation

But like I said, I I know I was great at my job And no, it's disrespectful if you were bad at your job and you get fired You don't understand it. But like I said, the numbers and the ratings was up. I had a big fan base, just didn't understand how I was let go, the way I was let go, period. Do you talk to any of them about it, Poppy? You know, Poppy and I got a great relationship.

Alex and I never had a good relationship. You know, we are okay. You know, but TV is TV. We put on great TV moments, great entertainment. It's not their decision. It's the front office decision. They made the decision, you move on. I don't have any disrespect for any of those guys.

It's just one of those things that I don't understand how I was released, but I was released and I dealt with it. A lot of people didn't understand it, but life comes at you fast, you gotta react. You know, and I'm a big boy, so I reacted and doing what I do kept quiet get back in that tool shed and do what I do that is your way of soothing yourself always right I will

bet on myself I bet on myself I'm a talented man you know I know how to market myself I know how to get myself going I mean just I'm one of those things there's a lot there's a lot of things out there in the world that you could be successful at how do you deal with failure? Just like everyone else. You hate to fail. Everyone hates to fail, but that's part of life. And if you fail at something else, for me,

I've always pivoted, keep it moving. That's the way I am. The reason I ask the question is because I haven't gotten good at it either. But in baseball, there is great learning in failure. And it's a sport of failure, even though you didn't fail all that often. Short-term memory. You just get back in the toolshed. Bad day, you got five minutes to get over it, move on to the next day that's just where I am. Why didn't you and Alex have a

more personal relationship? I don't know about that. We had a good relationship at times, but sometimes I always thought he just wanted to be bigger than the show. And that's just the way he is. He demanded a lot more attention than everyone else and it's always been that way. I always felt that we could just pass the rock and keep it moving. That's what made the show better. And I talk to Kevin about it all the time. Let's keep passing the rock. Let's keep moving it and not like feel like it's somebody else's platform. It's a great a list of Hall of Fame guys that did a lot in this game. Keep passing the rock. That's just the way I felt. Oh you know what's interesting about this one

and forgive me because I Alex has done one of these with me and I've known Alex since he was a high school kid. I've known him since high school. This is what I wanna say though, because you were the only active player who participated in the Mitchell Report, the only one. You have had a career, those numbers, 16 years, that could have been 19 and a half if you hadn't been injured,

you did it the right way. You did it correctly to be sharing a stage late in life and midlife with Alex Rodriguez and a show that was yours. And now with the idea that Alex is here to be the show, when you pride yourself on kind of being a good teammate, there's a lot of garbage here that would be very easy for you to be like, well you weren't actually a better player than me, you did some things I wasn't willing to do, and I could see some of that getting involved there too.

Well, like I said, everything that's happened over there has been documented, there's nothing I can tell you differently, but like I said, it's one of those things that I always felt like, let's be great teammates and just keep passing the rock. I'm sorry. I'm not. I'm just saying, but the conversation on a TV desk, it is what it is. The more you keep passing around with great players, the better the show is. And that's just the only thing that bothered me at times with the show. But as for him, you know, he wasn't alone. You know, Alex wanted to be great. He spent his whole life wanting to be great. So I there's no disrespect. I don't

want people to just come across as disrespect, but it's not. You're not saying you're not saying your high school kid. And I know he wanted to be someone very special. He's doing well now. He's doing TV. He's a corner of a basketball team. He's doing himself. He's re invented himself, you know,, he's reinvented himself. You know, and that's important for him and it's important for his family. And like I said, I don't spend time over spill milk and got to continue to keep negativity going

because there's no negativity there for me. It's very classy of you and it's very non-judgmental of you. I guess the better way for me to have asked the question would have been, how alone did you feel throughout being someone who was surrounded by people who were doing something that you weren't doing, and you're the only active player talking to Mitchell, the investigator, because it was important to you in some way to be like,

it's not exactly fair that I have all of these expectations on me, am doing it clean, and I see that I'm surrounded by a sport That's not doing it clean. I can be honest with you I was naive to the fact how many guys were doing it, you know, cuz I like I said I always mind in my business I had no idea so many guys were doing it because I like I told you I was the biggest guy on the field Basically the strongest I weight room non-stop. I had that explosive power. So I was shocked when all of it came out. I had nothing to hide.

That's why the mystery report came out. I had nothing to hide. I didn't know what was going on. And when I went and met with these guys, they're like, I'm like, what are you talking about? I had no idea. So when all that unfolded, I was as shocked as any other people.

I mean, there was guys like in Seiko, they were saying we're doing it, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I wasn't totally 100% naive, but that was a lot of people throwing arrows on stone, saying, well, that guy's on it, that guy's on it. But it wasn't all the guys that came out. You know what I'm saying? So I was really shocked at the whole process

of how to handle. And like I said, I didn't make a big stink of it because I didn't need it. I didn't need it. My numbers were the same throughout the whole era. And I stayed consistently who I was the entire time. And it was important to me to keep up with the guys. When I found out later that these guys were doing it,

I still felt I had to work harder. And I did work harder just to make sure maintain that I can keep up with these guys regardless. What is the proudest thing on your baseball resume? Been a clean player in that era. It's got to be. You know, I put up tremendous numbers in that era. Like I said, but I don't throw stones at people because of what they did. Like I said, they did for their families

and everybody's goal wasn't to be in the Hall of Fame. I had many guys that my goal wouldn't have been in the Hall of Fame. I was gonna make as much money as I can and take care of my family. You gotta respect that. You can, I played football and I saw guys did the same thing because they had to, because they had a block that's a

300 pound 400 pound lineman and they did what they did to survive But as the baseball I was just shocked that so many guys did it just to hit a baseball. It's great though It's not only very forgiving You're not doing a whole lot of moralizing that would be very human to know the idea But the idea that you wouldn't have bitterness about that. It would be very easy to have better I have no bitterness towards it because I had a kid. My son wants to play Major League Baseball and he I'll be damned if he's a carbon copy of who I was. You know he's gonna be better like I said he's a more athletic kid

because my wife played sports too. She was a volleyball player and a softball player so he's naturally gifted and I'm telling right now why would I try to burn Major League Baseball? Why I have no no respect in that at all. I would never do that. You know what I'm saying? Bottom line is my kid wants to be a Major League Baseball player, and I'm pushing him as hard as I possibly can to be the best he possibly can.

Because Major League Baseball has done everything that he possibly can to clean it up. But when you dang like care of $500, $600 million, you're going to have a lot more guys doing the same thing trying to get it. I promise you that. Do you do much in the way of bitterness? No. Life's too short. Life's too short, Dan. way of bitterness? No. Life's too short.

Life's too short, Dan. I tell people every day, life's too short. I'm happy being a happy-go-lucky guy. And loving people, because I love people and people love you back when you love them. That's important. Does any of that come from upbringing? I don't know what dad being a deacon, I don't know what was happening in your childhood

that formed your Principles morals and where it is you arrive at right up until you disrespect me. You're not gonna disrespect me, right? Exactly is this one of those things that like I told you going to that all-white private school and coming back to the ghetto every Day, I got to see both sides of that fence I got to understand people learn people money meant a lot differently over here than it did over here and I got to understand people and learn people. Money meant a lot differently over here than it did over here. And people, it was about being who they can be

in their areas. And for me, I was in the middle of that fence. I got to see the world with both eyes. And that's who I am. You know, I see things from both sides of the fence. I have just as many white friends. If I have black friends, I just, I'm a Latino friends.

I understand the world, how it clicks and how it goes around. And my insight is a little different than everybody else. It really is. Can you explain that part to me? Because you've said it a couple of times that you look at the world a little bit differently. Is it, are you telling me, look,

I see where all the cultural frailties are, and I meet everyone with forgiveness right up until, don't disrespect me. Exactly. That, I can tell you right now, there's racism on both sides of the fence. I was able to sit in this room because of who I was and learn some things because I had a lot of white friends say, oh, you're not like that. And I'm looking at it like, what do you mean?

I'm black, you know what I mean? But I'm not like that. On the other side of the fence, oh, you go to school with all those white kids, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's racism over here. There's racism over here. there's racism over here. Then you mix in the Latino friends, all this racism is everywhere. But like I said, I'm one of those guys that, I was more of a sponge.

I can take this, I can take that, I understand the world, but I took it as education and learning people and learned a lot about people. So I've never been able to see color like the other people. It's interesting that you say that for a number of reasons, but one of them is because I would like for you at the end of this here to correct viewpoints that I have either incorrect or lend credence to them. One of the reasons that I admire you so much,

even though you had your occasional flare ups with the Chicago media that I thought they earned every bit of your wrath on is because at an age that now feels prehistoric but I didn't know was prehistoric at the time you are a Chicago sports superstar in the city of Michael Jordan in a largely white sport where a lot of people are telling the Latin and black players, don't be too flamboyant. You're working under the gaze of J. Mary Addy and Skip Bayless who bring upon the advent of cruel sports writing

that tears down athletes that from where I was standing, I couldn't help but notice that's a big black dude and those are two white dudes just burying this guy every day. So I saw without accusing them of racism, I just saw a racial element there that made me feel bad for you in the middle of it and made it seem to me from afar and you're confirming it now, like your joy was diluted in the daily experience because you were always fighting something off and hitting a baseball is hard.

Tell me where I'm wrong and where I'm right there. You know, I don't think you're wrong, but I didn't think about it the way most people did. I felt it was motivating. I always felt they're trying to push my buttons to make me better. You know, that's the way I looked at things. I never looked at it as a racial situation.

I always looked at it. Some guys, like some guys, you push them, they'll go to a corner and cry. Some guys you push them, they go to a corner and cry. Some guys you push them, they come out with vengeance. And I always would come out with vengeance. And I think it became, let's see how much we can piss him off to see what he can do this week on the field. And that's just the way I looked at it.

And most people didn't look at it that way, but I did. I just felt like I was always being pushed, buttons were being pushed to be better. And that's just the way I look at it pushed buns were being pushed to be better and That's just way to look at I didn't have time to worry about people I get it, but it almost seems like in this way. I'm not gonna say you liked it, but it was fuel Yeah, it was always food on my fire It really was and I always looked at all time great since hey you think they didn't have to deal with some of that When people want you to be great and you've proven to be great

They're gonna make sure that you don't have days off of not being great. And that's just the way I looked at it. Frank, it was a pleasure. Thank you for spending this time with us. What a pleasure to be here talking to you again. I wish your pops were here because I love him. He makes me laugh. It's the only reason Frank is doing this.

He makes me laugh. I wish pops were here. But you're incredible what you've done in your job. I've loved you for years and thanks for having me back. Thank you buddy. Thank you my friend. Folks, did you know that sleep is one of the most important parts of recovery? Whether you're a pro athlete or just looking to crush your day, getting the right kind of rest is key. And that's where Sleep Number Smart Beds comes in. Since 2018, Sleep Number has partnered with the NFL

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