The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Joakim Noah

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

It seems impossible, but Joakim Noah is the ultimate combination of a free spirit and a competitive warrior. Now that his NBA playing days are over, he’s fully embraced looking deep into the passion and pain that drove him from living in his father’s shadow to becoming a leader at the highest level. Joakim gets real with Dan about the overwhelming physical and mental toll he took on in his insatiable desire to win, the regrets he has from his personal failures with the Knicks and how he's now found a new title he's ready to compete with his heart and soul for... happiness. To help support The Noah’s Arc Foundation, visit NoahsArcFoundation.org Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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SAB, the CV. Copyright 2024. Proximo. Jersey City, New Jersey. Please drink responsibly. Hello and welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm excited to do this one because I really admire Joe Kim Noah for a number of different reasons. I mean obviously he's a champion, defensive player of the year, top five in MVP voting,

but one of the things that I love about you is that I always thought that you were willfully tough in a way that was unreasonable, that you were playing through a great deal of pain. And also that you're a bit of an artist who was always himself in a world where I wondered how he got along with everybody because it seemed like you were built a little bit differently. And the world that you occupied was an interesting one to me from afar. So I'm happy that you're're gonna allow me to explore it a little bit with you today respect that nice to be here You are somebody that I found to be a free spirit Who was a bit trapped in the regimens of the game? Do I have that wrong from afar? Not at all. Not at all. I think

Sometimes you got to be careful where you think outside the box, you know, and you know, I was Raised a free spirit. My father was a free spirit. My mother was a free spirit But you know people are so quick to put you in a box especially when you're in the public eye and you know, that's why I'm really happy to be here, because I also know on your end, you know, you had to deal with the mainstream and follow your course as well. So happy to be here. When you talk about your parents and being free spirits,

what does that mean? How would you explain that to people? You know, I think my father being you know a black tennis player in a in a white world and you know somebody who was a rebel in his own way. One of the best tennis players in the world and as the game became global you know he was somebody whose name was known throughout the world for being a great tennis player and also for being a bit of a personality, for not for, for I would, I don't even know if it was flamboyant, but probably flamboyant

for the time in the country club. Well, just never, never scared to speak his mind, you know, and I respect that because it's, it's really, it's really a lost art. And I think growing up in France, you know, Dad was one of the most popular figures in the country. So, you know, we always had to navigate that as kids and, you know, moving when I was 12 years old to New York City really changed that where I could just kind of express myself and be my own person and just not be in this, in my father's shadow.

When would you say you began to become an adult? For me personally? Yeah, because you're talking about different stages in your life when your parents separate. I don't know how much you're having to grow up in your teen years. And I don't know how quickly the NBA made you grow up. Well, I mean, I think that, you know, it's when, when you're, my father was obviously who he was. So we grew up in a life of privilege. And, um, I think what I learned the most from him was just the work ethic that goes into becoming a professional athlete.

Even though my dream was always to be a basketball player, I think what my father did well was take me to go run in the morning before school, even though I didn't want to do it. Just at the end of the run, with a sprint you know fight through fatigue you know so you build a relationship with training in the red you know those are all things that my dad taught me and he was somebody who was just even though he was he looked different with dreads you know he had the the Rasta wristband. He was at his own pace. He had his own style.

He had his own thing going. He was just very comfortable with who he was. You couldn't feel the pressure on him as a kid? You couldn't feel because he had to be rubbing against it, right? Being confident in who he was because he was excellent at tennis but a bit of a rebel who stood out in that world. He wasn't your father. I don't know what you remember as a child. When you say your parents are free spirits and you became a free spirit, I'm interested in exploring the imprints of that with you. I'll give you an example. I remember being a kid and there was a soccer goalie named Bernal Lama and he

was the top goalie for Paris Saint-Germain and he had got caught smoking a doobie and you know get suspended and my father was really outspoken for him but at the time it was crazy for athletes to stand up for other athletes because they smoked a joint. Now, it's a common thing. But back then, I remember going to school and everybody knew what my dad had said. So, and you know, having a tiptoe around that as a eight, nine-year-old kid. So that's what I mean when I say free spirit. He didn't hold back. He always spoke his truth in a really public way.

And how about your mother? Where are the imprints there? My mother is a very special lady, somebody who was Miss Sweden at 15 years old and moved to New York. I think she was 16. Hippie at heart, really into social work. My mom is really special and she just wanted us to be able to have our own lives and not be worried about living in dad's shadow. I think that was very important for her. Just self-expression. She was an artist. She's an artist. It could have been a burden, right? Living in your father's shadow could have been

ever, it could have been forever a burden. It could have been forever a burden. I think that I played the way that I played basketball because I wanted to be my own man. Because when I go to France, I'm still the son of Yannick. And that's my name over there. I don't have a name. My name is Son of Yannick. And I didn't realize how much that affected me until later, just being able to have the conversation

and doing the self-work. Because I did play with an edge to me that most private school kids wouldn't play with and I was like how did I get to this dark place in competition and I really felt it was because I wanted to be able to express myself. You know, it's like you go down, you get a dunk, you get a block. Like it wasn't just normal reaction. I was screaming top of my lungs every time. So I think that all that came from wanting to be my own man.

That's crazy. So you're saying that your game which was I mean all I Associate you with is sort of overcoming pain I don't know if I'm thinking of the foot stuff later in the career But you seem to be the manifestation of will on the court and I always thought you were in a little bit of pain And you were overcoming it all the time and you're saying it's in a defiance that raged within you even though you've got an artist's heart to know I will not be limited to being in the shadow of my old man.

I will not. That's right. That's right. That's how you played. That's how I played. I didn't know it at the time either but I look back on you know my interviews at the time and or things that I was saying and it it was always about, I want to be my own man. I want to be my own man.

I don't want to be in my dad's shadows. Even though we were very close, definitely, just to have a father who emotionally went through very similar things is something that's really special. But yeah, I definitely wanted to be heard and be able to express myself my way. It seemed like that would be kind of hardened though, that maybe when you were in it, it would be hard to enjoy unless you were winning, right? Because this is the daily rigors of what it is that you did just running up and down the court.

I don't think the average person understands the kind of shape that you were in. I think being in shape was something that came natural for me. I played with a lot of fear, you know, just always feeling like, I train like I don't think I trained enough so I was always doing extra because I was this fear of losing, of not being good enough. I think that you know a lot of it before the

injuries and the pain it's like it's it's really mental and it's like, what gets you there? What's what emotions, um, help you get through the, the hard part, the tools, what are the emotions that help you there? Because you're talking about, uh, you mentioned self work. I don't know when you started doing that. I don't know that the athletic space allows for it very much if you have to be singularly minded about like getting ahead. Did you mention that phrase purposefully or is it something that post-career you've had to get tools

with? No, I think that the self-work is something that I had to go out and search for myself, you know, especially when the injury started happening. I played for the Knicks, hometown, so excited to come home and, you know, I failed miserably in a very public way. And you know, I lost my confidence. How was I gonna find that that joy out there on the court? You know that that was my safe haven. This is where I felt the most at peace. This is where I felt like I could express yourself but when you're not right it's a tough place to be. It's a very lonely place. So you

know I was just therapist and you and that wasn't really working. How am I going to figure this out? So I started doing some really unorthodox training and training underwater with Laird Hamilton and Gabby Reese and finding some some new mentors You know they were doing all these underwater Pool exercises where you would just a lot of breath work and you know, I even went to the jungle and I Did everything I did everything. I did everything. If I may because when you talk about your 2018 I don't want to be presumptuous but I thought from afar that must be very hard what he's going through. Going back to New York

with expectations, got the big contract, was super coveted as the rescuer of the New York Knicks and now his body's not working quite right, what a dark spiral that can be that the dollars don't help you with when the dream you thought that was your body doesn't let you do it and now your mind's falling apart because I imagine when you say your confidence was wrecked you're not even just talking about basketball. If basketball is all you are, then who are you without basketball? That's right, that's right. You know New know, New York is a different place because there's no hiding in that city. You know, um, I felt like a fish in a fishbowl. You know, it's like you're walking in the street, something you've been doing your whole life,

and now all of a sudden it's just everybody's stopping you in the streets, wanting to talk to you, what's going on. Like, um, but you know, when it's going well in New York, it's the streets, wanted to talk to you, what's going on. But you know, when it's going well in New York, it's the best, but when it's shit, it's tough. Yeah, when you feel like you're failing, right? If your self-worth is wrapped up in your work and you're walking around and your body doesn't work right and you want to be known as more than just a body, but you also are using,

you're squeezing everything that body will give you out of trying to please these people being unreasonable to your body. Because you like, I associate you with pain. Okay. Do you know how weird that is? I'm, I'm only watching you, but I associate what you were doing at the end to physically hurt because it seemed like I was, I was watching you and I'd be like, holy shit, this man is so willful.

Yeah. I would probably do anything to be out there on the court. And, um, you know what I had, it was some tough lessons during that time. Um, but it was like my mentality. I got to fight through and that was the way I was able to, you know, inspire my teammates to play harder as well as just, you have to go out there and go through the fire yourself first. And when my body wouldn't let me, there was a lot of lessons to be learned from me, for sure. That's rock bottom, right?

When you think of the way that basketball can tax somebody mentally, like whatever that darkness was for you, that's the, that would be the unhappiest period of your basketball playing life, right? What you thought was going to be forever. So I associate you with toughness. How fragile did you feel inside of that?

Where you're in the fishbowl and I guess you're seeing that when people see you, they see failure? Yeah. Yeah it was probably the most vulnerable I've ever felt and to be able to feel fragile on that platform is it's a tough place to be it's a very lonely place to be but I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. Am I disappointed? Yeah, I got to live with that for the rest of my life for sure. But I know why I came home. It's funny because everything in my basketball journey, it was never about the money. It was never about the money. It was never about the money.

That's how much I loved being out there. How much I loved to compete. And you know, once it's over, once it's done, I mean, you're not getting that roar from the crowd with 20,000 people. You're never getting that again. Now you just have to adapt to the real world. But the feeling that you get when you walk onto that court, looking at the playoff games right now,

and it's just looking at what New York looks like right now, imagining what the streets must have felt like last night after that win, it's deep. You never really consider that it's ending, right? Like that's never how the athletes mind works. I will overcome, this will be forever. It's definitely the mentality. It's the mentality is more to you know live in the moment. Like don't worry about what happened yesterday, don't worry about what's gonna happen tomorrow. Just focus on the task ahead. And you live your life like that for most of your life.

And then it's a big change. Athletic competition made you, I thought, more unreasonable than you actually were. That I would imagine that you still have some trouble getting off of you. The wars with Bosch, Wade and LeBron and Udonis and all of that was such a frenzied thing at the top of sports that I can imagine you all these years later, still having some scars that, uh, that needs some tending to. For sure. You know, I can look back on it now and just say, you know, what a, what, it was a blessing, you know, just to be able to be a part of that, to compete at the

highest level against the best. Um, and to, and to belong among them because what you were doing with Derek Rose, like you guys were fighting at the top of your sport for an NBA crown and were a 60 win team for, for two years, you got to feel all the good that basketball gives. Yep. And you know, you just, uh, it was, it was the best, you know, when you walk into the gym and the whole team feels that hope that you have a chance to get the glory,

you know, it's a different training session. It's a different weightlifting session. that you have a chance to get the glory. It's a different training session. It's a different weight lifting session than the team that's at the bottom and you're training because you're a professional. You still have to do it, but it's just a different intensity. It's a different way you brush your teeth in the morning.

I mean, you're playing against Chris Bosh, LeBron James, D Wade. It's easy to get up for those games. But your furnace is up here, right? Like your this, this is madness. The level of how competitive you are playing there in that space with the with the best. It was something that you craved. I loved it. I loved every second of it. I wish we would have.

One for sure, we did. And you know what, I think that it's funny because I just did a podcast like this a couple of weeks ago with you Udonis Haslund and Mike Miller and just being able to talk to the Warriors from the other side and talk about it 10, 15 years later. It's pretty therapeutic because you realize there's a lot of similarities when you're stepping onto that court. You might not feel it when you're competing,

but once it's done, it's definitely a beautiful thing to be able to talk about. Oh, so you're saying that sitting down with them after having had the brawls with them made you not only look at them differently, but therapeutically, you saw a mirror. You saw, oh, these guys were just chasing the same thing I was.

Absolutely. And you know, those guys were my OGs from University of Florida. So I remember watching their tapes from their March Madness and okay, this is what it looks like. This is the energy that it takes. Like, wow, look at the bench.

Like everybody's up on every plate. Everybody's into it into it you know and Billy Donovan at the time it was top of the front of the press we were pressing the whole game it was a different kind of energy that I wanted to be a part of but you look at a regular seasonal game in college and then you look at the Watch madness game it's like it's a different sport. When you think of the battles with Mike and Eudonnis and when you think of their mentorship and you were a better basketball team than theirs they when you

say they they are the OGs you came into Florida and those had to be the best two years the most fun two years anyways of your life winning those championships back- back and doing something they couldn't do. Yeah, it's funny because we spoke about that too. And something I found interesting is, you know, Eudonnis obviously won a lot of championships, very well deserved. But the first thing he wanted to talk about was the losses

and how traumatic losing is. And if you're a real warrior, losing has got to feel like a near death experience almost. If I'm looking at my teammates and we just lost an important game, and I see a teammate clowning or laughing after the game, I'll take that personally at the time. You realize how unreasonable near death sounds, right? It's how I feel.

I feel like it's one of the reasons why I wanted to be on this show because I know you were, you know, on ESPN with your pops, mainstream, and I know there's a reason, there must be a reason behind why you wanna do podcasts, and because there is a truth that you can speak on this platform compared to when you're I mean I could be wrong I don't know you really well then but can you talk about that a little bit well this is a place for me to express

myself like this is a place for me to convey some of the things that I end up believing in creatively and otherwise. And so this is the way that I reveal myself to the world and the podcast you're presently sitting in is supposed to be the most vulnerable of those experiences where I'm having the most intimate of the conversations, the ones that are the most vulnerable. And this platform, I think, is meant to teach me some things about having the tools to deal with emotional imbalances that come with grief or whatever your 2018 was because I don't, I want this to be a place where people can speak freely without encumberment about, about whatever their truth is,

no matter how out there their truth might be, including making losses near death experiences, which isn't, it's not reasonable in the age of load management in game 41. It's not reasonable. But it's not reasonable. You were a dumb person in pursuit of great glories and, and, and hardships, but you didn't have to care like that.

Did you? I mean, it's what made me who I am. You know, uh, competition is, it's a, it's a different frequency. You know, I think that it's a different frequency. You know, I think that as you get older, you know, you have to deal with, you know, your emotional intelligence. You know, you wanna, you know,

I have three kids right now and it helps, you know. I'm like, you know, I used to look at my dad and be like, he always got to go and I used to be kind of mad at him about certain things and now that I have my own kids, it gives me a different perspective. Thank God I didn't have kids when I was playing. I wouldn't have been present. Even my girlfriend at the time, you lose a game, she's talking to me face to face. We're having dinner.

It's like, I'm not here. I'm thinking about like, damn, I fucked up X1 role. That's an extra possession, right? You know, I'm just thinking basketball instead of being in the moment of the things that are important. So you don't agree though with my assessment that this Joakim would look back at that Joakim and say you can relax and still be yourself. You can, you will be no less yourself if you don't care to the point of ravaging the entirety of your body because you must in pursuit of victory tonight. That's too much a part of

who you are. You were too proud and you had to be your own man too much that there is no regret about any of that. It was not a dumb man. It's who you are and you're proud of that. I insult you by saying that that man didn't have the perspective of the adult in front of me now. I mean, you know, I played at my mentality out there is not something that I expect people to understand. It was never about trying to make people understand. Like I was going to do whatever it took to win the basketball game and I

feel like that's the mentality you have to win to get to the glory. But how do you articulate to somebody who doesn't understand how much you cared? Like how does one, I mean to say it's a near-death experience is one thing but when you're waking up with the daily pain that you're waking up with in your feet, when you don't want to get to the gym, when there are men out there stronger than you, who gave it to you the night before and you're on a back-to-back and you don't feel like playing, explain to people what it means to care the way you care. Yeah.

You do whatever it takes. And you know what? That's why I played a certain style of play. And people still come up to me in the street sometimes, and thank you for your services. That's like something that you tell somebody who came back from Afghanistan. But I'm with my friend. He's like, yo, why is he talking to you like you're a war veteran or something?

No, I just played basketball, a certain brand of play. I was competitive as hell. I really wanted to win. And. You know, I don't have any regrets. You know, I feel like I did. I do things that I wish I would have done differently. Like, yes. But it's like it's a learning experience. I feel like you learn more from the losses than you do from the wins.

Well, what are you thinking of there that makes you pause on there's a regret, I don't want to regret I want to treat failure as learning but there's one I would have done. I would have liked to have the knowledge then that I have now that I would have tweaked this here even understanding that you're grateful for the lessons because almost everyone I talked to in this format says that regret is not useful if you're taking lessons from whatever your choices were now there's nothing in particular nothing in particular I didn't know whether the man in New York, the man who chose to go to New York, had regrets about going to New York because it became a different thing than

whatever it is his identity was in Chicago, which was more warrior, more success, and whatever the best version of yourself publicly was. Yeah, but I think that, like I said, this, that was, it's like that pain that I had to carry throughout my New York experience, it made me better. It made me realize that it's not all about what people think about you. Like, fuck that. And you know, you have to move on from that eventually, you know, like the persona that I had in Chicago was a different than one in New York. Like, absolutely. Did I want that back at all costs? Absolutely. But it taught me a lot as well. Just like, OK, this is this is actually not making me happy anymore.

You know, this chase for, you know, for the glory. That's not what it was anymore so I had to dig deep I got kicked off the Knicks you know I got into it with the coach and I got suspended for drugs you know that's all like really heavy stuff on a really, really public platform. But I was able to, and when I got kicked off the Knicks, it was February. I didn't make a team. I didn't make a team until November. So for six months, I was free. I was getting paid a lot of money and I was free to figure this out for myself.

And it was deep, man. You know, I traveled, I went to, I did Ayahuasca therapy. I mean, I just, I went all in and I trained every day by myself. It was not a coach telling me practice at this time. You know, no, I got a trainer. I went to go work out at Laird and Gabby's every day, sauna, ice, whatever I could find to help me get to where I needed to go. And you know what, in November when I signed with the Memphis Grizzlies, I went by myself and I was coming off the bench. It was a completely different atmosphere, different vibe.

And you know, I'm really proud of that because I came back from from a long, long dark journey and I was able to appreciate the game and just being out there and enjoying my 15 minutes a night. And it was just back to the simple things of just enjoying playing basketball. I don't think people understand how difficult that had to be for you in that six month period. You're talking about swimming through the darkness, needing some C therapy and needing some general spiritual healing on, oh shit, it's almost over.

Like I'm going to have to really fight to get back. It's almost all ruined and over and I didn't have warning. And what do you mean? It's drugs and I'm fighting with the coach and now I've got to check in on my identity and who am I without Basketball I am I gonna be my own man these six months Am I gonna be like you must be as proud of getting to Memphis as you are of winning defensive player of the year Absolutely, that's deep and this is the truth I will explore deeper asking you about what it was like for you at the Loneliest in New York. You go there, Phil Jackson goes to your house to

recruit you. They're making you their big free agent priority. You're going home. All of your dreams are going to be made real. You've been defensive player of the year. You're still ascending in your mind to the top of the sport, correct? Well, I had some a really bad shoulder injury before I signed my deal with the Knicks So I was actually you know on a hospital bed and you know after after the the surgery, you know, just doing a very, you know, the rehab was just, you know, rehab is very lonely.

You know, guys are out there on the court doing their thing and you're not being able to be out there and do your thing. Yeah, that was definitely some of the lonelier times. It was drudgery there, but when you go to the period where you're talking about the difficulties, the mental tests that were the six months after the season, after everything blew up, where you're feeling like your career is over and nobody warned you.

Mm-hmm. It's a very lonely time. It was a dark time. And, you know, I was... It's a time in my life where I probably had to do the most soul-searching and find tools that could help me get through this. I remember talking to sports therapists, things that were just easy for me on the court, very comfortable for me on the court, were really difficult. I would talk to all the teams who put me on with a therapist, a sports therapist, and, you know, talking to me and I just, it didn't help at all. I was just... They don't understand me.

They don't know what it's like to be me. Well, they don't have to be on that court. They're not 6'11", walk around New York City with a ponytail where everybody kind of sees you as the reason why your team is losing. Yeah, it was very painful and you know I had to go dig deeper and like okay what's my why? what are the tools that are gonna help me I felt like therapy didn't really help where the things that really helped me was you know connecting with the right people I give a lot of credit to Laird Hamilton and Gabby Reese for you you know, opening their home to me that summer.

How did this all happen, right? Because you're talking about an aquatic training that ended up with you feeling very close to the earth, healing, spiritual, physical limits. Like, what's the training that you were doing with them? And why was it soothing you? the training that you were doing with them and why was it soothing you? Uh, I think it, it was, it was different than what I was used to. It was an unorthodox style of training. And, uh, I remember taking these heavy dumbbells and being under, you know, 12 feet of, of water and, um, the first reaction was get me to the top so I can get a breath I feel like I'm gonna die and the more I did the training the more I realized that I

had to you know just relax in this immense amount of pressure. Everything in my body was telling me to go up but you have to just learn to be in a relaxed calm state and you know as the workouts kept going I feel like I got better and better at it. It really translated onto the court. Relaxed amid panic, you're training with one of the world's best surfers and a professional volleyball player. You're testing the capacity of your lungs and it is bringing you healing to test yourself this way as opposed to testing yourself against others.

It was very healing because there was nobody out there telling me anything. No noise. It's just you and your thoughts. And sometimes the demons are between your ears. How did you cope with that? How do you cope with that? The demons between your ears because you have told me off air here that the the expressing of things is not necessarily for you. It's not necessarily the way that you've been built. It doesn't mean that you wouldn't be somebody aspirationally who'd want to be that but your when free

spirit isn't a lot in this in the speech it's it's in movement and in energies and peace of mind I think peace of mind is is just it's the most important thing is can you be comfortable in the uncomfortable moments that's what it's always been about and things that were comfortable were not comfortable anymore so how do I do that you just got to push yourself and navigate the navigate just how do I get my peace of mind back I got a lot of my peace of mind being underwater with nobody talking to me under this pressure of feeling like I need to breathe and just relaxing myself and getting through it and getting the job done.

But can you explain to me what a lack of peace of mind looks like when you are suffering under the pressure of feeling like a failure and you care the way that you care about not being a failure and you care the way that you care about not being a failure. Hard to sleep, can't sleep at night, anxious, you know, just having dinner, just simple things, just you're just not comfortable in your own skin. And it's the, it's, it's the worst, it's the worst feeling you can feel as a, as an athlete, because you want to be, you want to be confident at all times. You, this is what is given to you. It's like, it is how you're supposed to react in these situations.

It's the greatest tool. Confidence is one of the greatest tools that once you've done your preparation and everything else, confidence is one of your weapons. If you're not confident, it's very hard to do what we do and I lost it on the biggest stage. And when you say creeps into your sleep, it becomes obsessive, correct? It becomes a ticking. It's not, the mind does not rest. There is no peace in it. There is no peace of mind in that moment. It's not a moment though. It was, it was a prolonged period, correct? It was a period, yeah. It was definitely a period. But there are tools that can help you get through that and I think they're different for everybody.

That's why it's called soul searching. And Ayahuasca was also a tool that helped me a lot. What did it do for you? Because people I talked to, I've always been scared of doing that because they talked to me about the sickness in it, but I've always been called to the ego killing parts of it? Yeah, I think there is a difference between ego and confidence, the way, and I think that we all go through it, you know, what are those tools

and what Ayahuasca taught me was at the end of the day, it's just a game. I never played basketball like it was just a game, but it made me realize like we're here for a small amount of time We're a lot smaller than we think we are That's the ego killing part of it the the facing of your mortality the the facing I mean there's something about doing what you did that feeds the Narcissisms in a way that would make you feel like you're the center of everybody's world. That's right. That's right and It's not true. It's not true. There's some, there's something much bigger going on than when losing basketball games. And the

ayahuasca made you very sick or you immediately emerge feeling more enlightened, lighter? While it was going on there were moments that were very heavy. You know, my daughter wasn't born yet. I was not with the mother of my children at the time. And I saw my daughter, 10 years old, during my journey. And it made me realize that she was here to stay. It gave me a lot of peace. My grandfather had passed during those six months.

I didn't, I wasn't at his funeral because I was afraid to talk about it with ownership of the Knicks and you know it was just just a lot of heavy things going on at the time. You were afraid to ask for time off because you didn't feel like you were earning your money or you were feuding with management or? Both. And you didn't feel it was professional to ask for time off to go see your, to go grieve your grandfather. That's right. And nobody would understand how that one hurts now looking back on it through the prism of ayahuasca teaches me that it's just a game.

That's right. And, yeah. Look, these were really tough times. And when you were talking about regrets earlier on on the show, that's where my mind brought me. So, yeah. You and I were talking a little bit off air. I was telling you about the loss of my brother and I was asking you if you had had any experience with that and your response was that your experience was to push it off into a corner the times that your most loved ones have lost, have been lost because you could get back

to work. You always had to get back to work. You had to succeed and so the coping mechanism for grief was to put it away. That's right. And never confront it. And so the coping mechanism for grief was to put it away. That's right. And never confront it. Well, I could hide behind the work. And I realize now that that's not the way you deal with things.

You have to deal with them head on and be true to yourself. And look, I'm speaking at it because I'm a basketball player, but I'm sure there's a lot of people in the world who hide behind, oh, I have to go work when there's adversity. And the pain that you're going through is not just your pain, but it's all your loved ones around you as well. When have you been proudest of yourself? I think I'm more proud of myself now than I was when I was playing. And that's just because I can honestly say

that I appreciate the more simple things and being able to share moments with my loved ones and be a lot more present. You've mentioned present a couple of times. There's great wisdom in that. I don't know where it is that you necessarily learned it and I know it's a throwaway line for a lot of people. But to be with your daughter, seeing the things that she is, instead of preoccupied with who you have to face that night or whatever it is, being in that moment, there is bliss there, there's enlightenment there, there is one with God, this is the happiest someone can be because this is the only moment I have. This one.

It's the best. You know, yesterday I made you know French toast for my wife and she was just seeing the smile on her face just eating the French toast. When she's happy, when my daughter's happy when my loved ones are happy that to me that makes me happy You know Where when I was playing all I cared about was Something else But you don't look back at that with regret either because you are proud of the warrior that you were like you were proud that you gave the sport Everything that you had you gave of yourself the most that you were, like you were proud that you gave the sport,

everything that you had, you gave of yourself the most that you had. Hey, sacrifices must be made. This is the work that I chose. This is where I chose to go. Do I regret? Do I regret it? No. It's who I needed to be in order to reach the ultimate goal. You will not be the happiest person in your family though because your seven-year-old daughter is competitive and she will not allow you to win there. She will not. And you know what? It's a great feeling when it's not for so many years it was, especially with the loved ones around me, it was about me. It's not about me anymore. That's an interesting one to flip around though, right? Because a lot of people think that they want it without realizing that to be that kind of selfish has its rewards but can come with an emptiness

big emptiness People would have no idea though, right and they don't want to hear your complaints about it either because they think you're living the dream Because you can't relate There are very few who can right very few who can you got to be a little bit nuts and but not only that though Here's the great joy of what it is that you guys just do with all of your repressions here There are very few that would really understand what it was like to be you and those who do know, you can't talk about it freely because to express yourself freely would be show them an intimacy that they can now turn into a cruelty against you because you're still kind of competitive. I'm not really tripping about that. I think that the real ones the real ones know and you know

So far it's always been a blessing to be able to share those moments with teammates and you know People that at the time I considered an enemy what do you want to see from young players today? I want to see from young players today? I want to see camaraderie. I want to see competition at its highest level. You're going to say they like each other too much? I wanna say they're too friendly. Expression yeah but you know I don't I don't like it I don't like it I don't like it like you're trying to get it like you're trying to get to the top he's trying to get to the top like stop being friends I don't like that shit. I'm just happy that I got to enjoy playing

basketball again, because you realize this thing goes on with or without you quick. It's hard to see when you're in it though, right? You think you're going to live forever. When you're in those battles with LeBron and Wade, and you're fighting with the cities of Miami and Cleveland. Your life is going to be an eternal immortality. That's what you think. You life is going to be an eternal immortality. That's what you think.

You're never going to get old. Yeah, but I think that every kid in his 20s feels that way. And then you get older and you realize that you're not immortal. You actually were actually very fragile beings and vulnerable beings. And it's deep, you know, and you know, that's why it's all about how you deal with the highs and how you deal with the lows. I was an emotional player and you know, I got to live it at the highest level and you know, when that, the NBA was, basketball was almost taken away from me and I think that

was a great lesson for me, because you realize these games go on with or without you. I have a hard time understanding how this person fits with that person, though they seem like two different entities in terms of how you carry your way through life and who you had to be in the furnace. 100%. 100%. I mean, I think everybody is. Just even watching the games now is, it's interesting.

I watched yesterday the Knicks come back, win that game against the Sixers. And, Joellen Bede's gonna have to live, that was a tough loss yesterday. You got to mentally get yourself right for game three. And I'm seeing him do the interview yesterday. Head down.

It's not just about how you're feeling. You're the leader in this locker room. You got to conduct yourself a certain way. It's different as much pain as you're in, the other guys in the locker room can't see what you had down like that. That's just, I'm just, and you know, it's one of the reasons why I don't love,

I'm not saying that to critique, I'm just saying this as is just my opinion. So careful, so gentle. You're, you're saying that's your, you don't want to be, the man is a little bit broken. You don't want to pile on on him. Uh, but you also want him to represent leadership in a way that you're. Look, you're saying I've been there. It hurts.

You gotta, you gotta stick your chest out a little bit there. You gotta keep up appearances. Head head up head up soldier. Come on Big game three coming up. This isn't over I feel for him because I know he's playing on one leg Been through a lot, you know just being able to play the way that he played earlier in the year and to Not have your body respond mentally is one of the hardest things ever.

Explain to me what playing through the worst of pain is. The thing is, when we were playing, we were taking a lot of things to numb the pain, so you would feel the pain later on in the night, you know. It's what we were willing to do. I don't regret it. You know, it's, this is this playoff time. I don't expect people to understand that, but you train your whole life to get to these moments. You think I'm gonna miss it because of my leg, because of my knee, like I think that that's more acceptable now. I'm not even talking about the pain that I was going through.

If I had a teammate who wasn't willing to do that, it would piss me off. I mean, it's a sickness, but it's a mentality that, you know, I carried throughout. It has to be at all costs, right? It has to be unreasonable because not even the person sitting in front of me is looking back on that and saying as what I imagine is an otherwise Holistic treater of his body saying well, that's probably not that's not the wisest thing to do to this vessel that will Help me age with grace We don't think like that dad, you know warriors can't think about consequences, right? You can't yeah You know you you're on the battlefield, you know at the end of the day, when you're out there,

you got to feel like a gladiator. If you don't feel like you're the best or you can win or you're going to get past this guy, then what are you doing it for? Oh, but I don't know what a confidence of an athlete is. Like, I believe that the place that you guys live at the most confident is a Transcendental mental physical and spiritual state where you are aligned with your body in harmony with the universe and Everyone roars your name. That's not a confidence that I would understand how that would I understand that confidence? It's deep

but You guys are putting yourself out there, you do the most vulnerable thing. You do, you put yourself out there nightly, competing against other men over pride and money, with everybody watching, and somebody's balls are on your face because you tried to block his shot.

That's right. It's deep, right? And it's humbling. You can be at the top of your game. You just scored the first four points of the game. You're feeling good. And next thing you know, you just, you get dunked on, crazy.

The whole crowd's going crazy. You know millions of people are watching. And it's humbling. And you gotta move on from that fast. But I'll tell you what, being on that court, you don't even feel your legs, man. You're just on straight adrenaline. And you know what?

It's the best feeling in the world. It's a higher state of living, right? It's it's both primal and spiritual. It's primal and spiritual, you know, when you just, when all you gotta do is just focus on your breath and you're in that zone and you just know everything's clicking just physically, mentally, like there's just, you know, some people can get in that,

I can count how many times that that's happened to me, just being able to be in that in that flow you know and it's tough you know because there's adversity throughout the game can you move on from that how fast can you move on from that and yeah it's deep when you think about the best of the wars that you had are there people you would still have trouble of the wars that you had, are there people you would still have trouble talking to today if you saw them because your intensity level was ratcheted up so high? I don't think so.

You come in peace now. I come in peace. And I think that that's important for me because otherwise I'd know, I'd just be like a bitter, a bitter person the rest of my life. You know, I think it's a beautiful thing when you're able to, you know, have those conversations and, and realize like we're not that different. It's funny, my father was very competitive in that way, and I see him now having dinner at the French with Bjorn Borg and Mackenro and they have like, they sit down and they talk and they're drinking. Now they can do it. And now they can do it. And now they can do it. But back in the day there was just no way. And just seeing them, you know, as 60 year old men and talking about those

times and how much they all appreciate having that and being able to talk about that and laugh about it. In retrospect, even to have to have the have the best vision of it to be able to look back at it with pride respect and the learning that you've since done that's what you're articulating when you say I'd be interested in hearing that with Mike and you Donnis because they were veteran mentors for you so that had to be all of that had to be surreal to have a bigger legacy than them even though they were the program builders, right? So it's no dishonor that you would come and have more success than them and then to fight with them at the top of basketball when you were rabid. Like

that's the team that you dislike the most, correct? You disliked everything about them from the beginning. Yeah, 100%. But I also, you know, it's deep. I I recruited every single one of them to come to Chicago. So That's the the truth is not it's nothing personal. You're just in the way of what I'm trying to achieve and Yeah, there were moments where you know what I should have maybe not said a certain things and You know what, I should have maybe not said a certain thing. But just like you said, competition is primal, and that's why people watch it. It's real.

And there was nothing phony or fake about what was going on out there. And it's not always pretty, and I think that that's why people watch sports. You tried to get all of them there, though? At one point, that whole thing was going to come to Chicago? The whole thing at that whole thing was going to come to Chicago Or the whole thing the whole spaceship was going to come to Chicago. Look it wasn't going to be D Rose

I was trying to recruit them. I'll tell you that no he didn't want to be doing any of that He didn't like that so much And so you were trying to build your own you were trying to build your own thing with them And then it became a fight against them. That's right And you did I recall you having an objection to how they showcased at the very beginning, right? Because that was, those were your prized recruits coming up in Miami on the stage. Honestly, I thought that we really had a shot and I think that what we represented was the complete opposite of what the Heat represented, you know, it was Miami, warm weather, there was a comfort

level, it was the stars coming in, and you know, we were the draft picks, you know, and we were Chicago, and we wanted to represent all of that. And yeah, it was deep. And now the scars after all these years, all of them are healed. Everything, everything. No, not everything is healed. I wouldn't say all of them are healed. I mean, I think you learn to live with it. And but yeah, it's not, you know, those losses, I'll live with that for the rest of my life. But I'll be able to talk rest of my life, but I'll

be able to talk about it and be, but I'm not gonna lie and say I'm all the way healed. No. Which are the ones you're thinking of? I mean, all those games, you know, ending the seasons, you know, when you're in a routine for, you know, 200 days straight, where you know exactly where I am, what I'm doing for 200 days, and then season's over, and then boom, you got three months off to think about it. Those first four or five days are dark. And I'll say that even when we were winning championships at Florida,

you know, having, you know, winning the championship, you know, it's like the best feeling in the world, you know, you reach the pinnacle, you know, it's your the highs of of living and winning a championship are so real and then whatever goes up it must come down. Well, but especially when you care the way you do. If it's that unreasonable, if you're treating them as near deaths, if we're talking about

them 10 years later and you're saying, I'm not healed and I never will be, and having a certain pride about that, like you don't even want to be. No, I want to live in a higher plane where it hurts like that. No, I don't want to. You'd rather get it off of you. You'd rather find the healing tools to get it off of you. Yes, absolutely. I'm working on that. I work on it every day. And even doing this, it helps because you're talking about vulnerable moments, you know.

But losing's allowed, it's part of it. Like losing, failure is routinely a part of it. I've talked the last couple of months here about how bad I am at treating failure as immediately, gently as learning. I don't do it well. I wish I could do it well. You're talking about failing publicly. You're talking about failing in a way that hurts you more than I'm thinking about the things that hurt me. Like you're, when you talk near death about basketball

games, you're talking a language I don't understand. That kind of grief, I don't care about things like that. But you're telling me I couldn't be who I was if I didn't. That's right. That's right. You know, you just got to it's the life we chose. And you know what? That's not my life anymore. I like to try to look at things a little

bit differently. And you know, I try not to be competitive anymore. You know, I've learned, I've learned late in life that that doesn't have a lot of value. It did. It served you well, but being competitive in the real world, it's, it's, it's tough. It's I don't think it's healthy. It's not healthy. It's not healthy. Exactly.

And I don't know how you realized that I realized that but how How because your competitive fueled you to There's real learning and having had something give you success all your life being rewarded for it and then realizing no I don't need to be that thing anymore. Yeah, it doesn't serve me anymore. You know now okay I retired three years ago and the stuff that I'm doing now I have a foundation that I started with my mother 15 years ago. We started a basketball league in Chicago in the inner city called One City where we work with 28 violence prevention groups from around the city, South Side and West Side, and we have guys from different neighborhoods

at-risk youth battling playing basketball against each other. And it's the most unifying and most powerful thing that I was ever able to do. Noah's Ark is the starting point on some of what you're talking about. You're and most powerful thing that I was ever able to do. Noah's Ark is the starting point on some of what you're talking about. You're talking about your mother's philanthropic work. She taught you some things here, and this is meaningful to you

because you're getting imprinting on human beings at a time where they can be pretty fragile or at risk. That's right. At-risk youth who have most of them have death or violence and I'm just very proud of the work we're doing with this league. You know this is not just a basketball league this is also you know financial literacy courses, different courses, and just trying to empower the youth in Chicago. And obviously Chicago is a place that gave me some of my best memories as a player, but

now being able to go out there and still do work in the inner city just is something I'm really proud of. For people who don't know the depth of this in how you care about Chicago and what it means to be an at-risk youth in Chicago you understand that life's challenges are such that it's very hard to get anybody to be trying to help, anybody who cares about you. You're caring about people that are largely neglected in this realm. Why does it matter to you as somebody in Chicago? Because this is a specific part of the country that you're helping. Look, I lived in Chicago more than I lived

anywhere else in the world and I'm very proud of my time over there as a player. And you know, I started something while I was playing over there. It started very organically. Shout out to Kobe Williams, you know, somebody that was just navigating, going to the neighborhoods with and I think that it just being able to go in the neighborhoods and do these basketball leagues really made me feel like I was playing for something that was bigger than myself and I feel like I

carried it every time I stepped onto the court when I was playing in Chicago and it was a great time you know just being able to have guys from different parts of town who might not get along but are sitting next to each other at the game, making sure that after the game I was spending a little time with the guys. I think it helped me deal with my own issues, that it was something that was bigger than just winning and losing. And you know, when I was done playing, there was just no way I was going to turn my back on what we started. And now we're able to get some solid funding in Chicago and really build out these leagues that I feel like are great.

It's a great violence prevention program. How have you gotten to a place over the last three or four years where you are both grieving the identity of who it is that you used to be as an athlete and also transitioning through what is a difficult time for anybody to be your age and no longer committed to the the thing that represents I you know the first 20 formative years of your life yeah I mean look grieving is not the word because you because I count my blessings every day. I could look back and say, wow, look at the negatives.

Yeah, there's negatives, but I try to really, I wake up in the morning, I'm a grateful person. I'm grateful for what I have, what I've learned, the journey that I had in this league. And now just, you know, having, you know, just being able to be more present for my family. But you have that now, you have grateful now, right? When you were going through the hardest of it, it didn't, the gratitude didn't help you then, correct? I mean, it did. It did. There was pain, but still, I mean,

you know, I'm living out, you know, sometimes you forget. There were definitely moments where I forgot, but... I would just think it would be hard not to be a victim or anything, but I would think that your expectations and everything would get so pressurized living in the bubble that you were living in, of the expectations of the sports dollar in New York after whatever you thought that dream was going to be. I'm not trying to make you, like I'm not trying to make you somebody who's a martyr here, but it's a dark thing to go through. You don't necessarily have perspective then and say, well, I'm making a lot of money because you were

like that is, it'd probably be better to have the money soothe you, but not if you're as prideful as I imagine you were. 100%. And look, when the money was the highest is when I was the saddest, you know, um, it was never about the money. You know, if I, if it was about

the money, I would have left school after my second year. You know, we had an opportunity to win a championship. I never took winning for granted. And, you know, it's, it was the ultimate goal first and foremost. And, and, you know, I carried that throughout. So look, yes, there were tough times. I'm really, really grateful of the journey, the highs, the lows, they all come with it. You know, even you win the championship, three days later, you got to go back to work. Like it never happened, and you got to start all over again. It's deep, man. It's really deep. You have to be strong to do it, mentally strong, physically strong. So when you talk about the times that were sad, how did you and how do you develop the

tools to deal with that when you're in it? Because I don't know how introspective an athlete has even time to be in pursuit of some of the things that you're chasing especially if you're not measuring consequences. I mean you have to always put yourself in question like what's what's your why you know you know for some guys their why is making money so they can take care of their family, you know, get mom at the hood. That's a lot of young men. They say that. Okay. So what about when you do get the money?

Then what? Like you, you got to always ask yourself, what is your why when you're out there? Because I mean, there was a time where I felt like I was playing for the people in the stadium you know you know then I then I then if I realized like okay they love you here they hate you that actually I actually loved the hate too it was just like such a strong energy just for some reason I always played better on the road I don't know why what are you now as a father that you learned over judge my parents. I think that I was, you know, when we moved to New York I was 12 years old. My mother was alone with me and my sister and you know I think that

it must have been very tough for her you know raising us we were you know we were rebel kids you know just very very very free and just like roaming a lot you know I was playing basketball on playgrounds and you know, mom was always, I don't know, I think it was just, it wasn't all, it wasn't easy for my mom. So I just try to be as present as possible for my kids, especially now that I'm done playing. I think that's important. Why would a teenager have any access to the gratitude necessary to see that mom's got it tough because she's on

her own or whatever it is you were thinking about dad because you were saying he was coming and going and wasn't as present as you thought he was. Like what what would a young 11 year old Joe Kim know about any of that? I Didn't know anything. I thought I knew everything but I didn't know I didn't know anything you know, I didn't you know an 11 year old you experienced things, but You know, it's wisdom is comes later You know, but it's crazy my seven-year-old she it's like I'll talk to her and she'll she'll she thinks she knows everything I was like you're in first grade just isn't she super competitive like you though you see her

you see this in the this does it scare do whatever it takes to win and that's in her. It's not something that I taught her. This is her DNA. You know, if we play Monopoly, you know, just I see how upset she gets when she loses. It's like you have to learn how to live with losing. And when it's funny with kids because they haven't lost yet. They haven't. I'll give you an example. When I saw Angela Reese after they lost to Kailin Clark the other day and she was just saying how hard it was for her that year after winning the championship how hard

that year was for her and she was crying on the podium and I think that not a lot of people could relate to that experience and how lonely it is to be at the top of the sport. And she says she didn't have no fun whatsoever at LSU that year. And you know, it's because it's the first time dealing with the public eye. That's why college is so interesting because as her career grows, she'll have those experiences to lean back on and be like, oh, okay, I've been here before. So she'll be able to protect herself differently than when it's the first time going through

being in the public eye. I don't think you answered whether you were scared or delighted that your seven-year-old daughter is as competitive as you. Yeah. Am I happy about it? You know I just want to be supportive you know she's gonna her journey is gonna be her journey it's not for me to say what's what she should do what she she shouldn't do, what sports to play. Like whatever she does, I want to be there and I'm going to support her and be the best that I can be. Do you think you were born competitive or was it learned from your father because you're growing up in the household that has a regiment of a professional athlete in it? Yeah, I think it's both for sure. You know, my dad, the day that I beat my dad playing basketball.

You never played again. He never played again. He never played again. But so he carries his competition still. You know, Dan has no problem saying it either. Like, he retired on the spot. The first time that you beat him after I beat him, we never played me again. How old were you?

Uh, I was 14. I was 14. You retired him on the spot. I retired him on the spot. Um, you know, and he, and, and this vice versa, it's like when we played one on one, those, those, you know, when I was a kid, he, he was pushing me to use pushing me to the limit every time. The frustration, the anger, he knew what he was doing. Do you have a battle that you remember most fondly that you could look at now from the distance and see oh, I understand that a lot better

Whatever it was the fire or the intensity of our back and forth So I now understand it better after ten years and can Admire this person that I had a distaste for I would say I would say Kevin going that you know He changed the course of my whole career. The competition piece was always in me, but he tried to embarrass me two weeks into my rookie year. I wanted to tell him how much I admired him as a kid

and he just shut that shit down so quick, so publicly. And I was like, that will never happen again. Nobody will try to do that. Take that from me ever again. My pride and to be able to go and be able to talk about it with him. But 10 years later, I thought that that was deep because I can't be telling these kids about being emotionally intelligent,

don't pick up your guns, peace and love, you know, retaliation, like stay away from retaliation and all those things and you still have your problems out there that are very public. So I'm really happy that we were able to have that conversation after. Forgive my ignorance, I don't know how he embarrassed you publicly. You had said that you were an admirer of his or and and then he publicly shot that down or while you were playing on the court he was he always talked a lot of trash I don't know if it was happening on the court or off the court. No it happened like

there was 10 seconds left in the game at the free throw line and it was one of the you know I knew it was a mistake I it was one of the, you know, I knew it was a mistake, I shouldn't have done that later, you know, but that learning experience, like after that moment, there was never any friendships. If you were my teammate, I wasn't trying to be friends with you. I wasn't trying to sit down with you in the club.

There was no buddy-buddy, you know. And I think that was all from... And you know what? I'm happy. I'm happy that happened. You know, as tough as it was, and as embarrassing as it was, it definitely made me tougher. And it made me realize like this competition thing is, it's not a friendly thing. You really didn't have friends on other teams when you were in Chicago. That was not, uh, that you were absolute about that. Yeah. I tried to be as much as possible.

Obviously there were guys that I liked. That was always tougher for me. If I played with like, yo I really don't fuck with him, I don't like him. Like that, I usually played better with that kind of frequency. How in tune are you with your emotional intelligence? Like you've used that expression a couple of different times now. What is it that you're articulating there? What is it that, how is it that you define your emotional intelligence and why it is that you're savvy there? I'm not, I didn't say I was savvy there. I didn't say, I'm not savvy there. Well, to have emotional intelligence, to be aware that you have emotional

intelligence, to be in tune with these frequencies that you speak of. You're not savvy with it. I think to be aware of it is to have a savviness about it. Appreciate that. I try my best, just like I said, you know, competition has always been where, you know, where I felt comfortable and then you're done playing and you realize like, you know know what this is not the type of Person I want to be anymore. So you you know you you have to change some point. I think that right now I

Try to be more patient. Did you like the person you were as an athlete? Did I like sometimes not all the, would you be friends with him? Probably not. Wow. Nobody's ever asked me that question before, you know. I think there are certain guys who, I mean, Kobe had some of this. No, being an asshole makes me better and I don't and I mean asshole in the most gentle way possible but I'm saying like if we're competing yeah

we're all gonna be assholes here right? When Kobe went straight through Powell's chest as teammates, that just shows you know the sickness of competition in the Olympics in the Olympics after winning championships with Palgasol first-play dream team game brother he wants to go through his brother's chest to signal to all the dream team members no this isn't about friendship and was it would this it was a statement that he was making to his teammates that there's no friends in this shit. It's deep.

Well, when you say it's deep, can you articulate for me and us the bond that you have with Derrick Rose and how meaningful it would be for you to be the one marrying him and him wanting you specifically to give voice to the ideas of love Yeah, I love that guy man, you know, I I'm really proud that you're done playing and you know, all you have at the end is just your memories from this thing and your relationships your friendships and You know from this thing and your relationships, your friendships. And, you know, Derek was somebody who represented a hope

of winning a championship every single time he would lace him up in the locker room. He was that special to not just us as teammates, but the whole city. And, you know, I think that his fame, like being the youngest MVP ever, being on every Adidas commercial that young, it was just like his humble nature was something that, even though we came from completely different backgrounds it was like our personalities couldn't be more different on the court you know

he was just very level-headed no moment was too big for him he just wasn't that emotional roller coaster that I was and I think that he helped me a lot with that. And I think that we got really, really close when when he got hurt, you know, because he was going through a very lonely time, I'm sure. And we were able to just, you know, be on the road and be able to chop it up and talk about life and

You know just like it was it was seeing him vulnerable and You know taking off the defense mechanism that you have to carry as a, you know, as an NBA player and just be, know that he had a brother and you know, I think that when he asked me and his wife asked me to marry them, you know, it was it was very special and you know, with everything that he's been through. I feel like he's somebody who could be bitter of

You know Some of his greatness taken away through injuries and stuff he's a happy guy he appreciates it and You know, I'm really proud to call that guy my brother. How much did you struggle with the vows? I didn't you know I read them like five times you know my mom helped me write something you know I I was on it I wanted to make sure that I was I was doing the right thing for him. Why'd your mom help you write it? You need some help there with the conveying of written emotion?

Exactly. It's tough. It's tough. It still is. Even this conversation is not easy for me. So you struggle with general verbal intimacy because what you're just talking about there with Derrick Rose is you're talking about real love. Real love always got to risk that kind of vulnerability.

And so you saw him dark. You saw him fragile. It's not barbed wire. It's not MVP of the league. It's like, no, my body's broken. What do I do? What do I do? It's who I am.

My body's who I am. He's what, 20 years old, 21 years old, 23 years old, whatever it is. You're not grown yet. No, not at all. And you've had the whole world thrown at you. You're on top of basketball. And now you're physically broken.

Who rides with you now? Those injured guys are lonely, you know. And you know what? I think that that's when you really know who, who really cares about you. And is in those moments. It's not when you're at the top of your game, everybody comes at you then that's, it's easy to be my friend that then. There's nothing in the locker room that rewards that kind of vulnerability though, right?

Like you're talking, the way you describe it is sort of runs interference on real love. The idea that you have trouble expressing intimately your feeling to a teammate. Yes, and as a player, like even the conversation that we're having right now, as a player I don't know if I would do this. What's the harm in it?

You have to protect that because when people feel vulnerability or see vulnerability in an opponent, they smell blood and they're coming for that. They might talk about it, you know, it's a real thing. That's why I was talking about the Joel Embiid thing. I was like, don't let them see you like that. I remember we won in the Eastern Conference Finals when we were playing the Heat. We won game one by 40.

I'll never forget the whole, I don't know if this was done on purpose or not, but the whole team was waiting in the hallway. So all the Bulls players that were walking by had to go past the whole Heat team. And I just remember how comfortable they looked. And it wasn't normal for a team that was down 40 points to look that, and I'm sure it came from the coach from Pat Riley, like stand right there.

And every time the book, let them know that this is that you're not sweating right now. It was probably some Pat Riley shit. But I remember that but I remember that. I remember that. So I think there's something when you're trying to grow as a person, it's important to be vulnerable. But especially in relationships though, like to have the most meaningful of relationships, surely the most meaningful ones you have, have cradle your insecurities, right? But that's where real

trust resides, like, and don't you have to have that with and for your teammates? Like, what would be the harm? You could tell Derek that you loved him while you were playing, right? You could tell him, I love you. But, but exploring like, true depths of feeling, you can only do that when one of you is injured, when one of you is in a frail state because otherwise others aren't to be trusted with anybody's vulnerabilities. Yeah, we live in a time right now, the world right now is not what it was 10 years ago. You know, it's like there's social media the public is there's there's no there's no Time to be vulnerable in this time for these kids These young men coming in

They're they're robots, you know, they're not trying to say anything too controversial. They're not there. They're not speak It's it's a different Negativity is louder and I speak, it's a different world. Negativity is louder, way, way louder. Acidic, divisive, and you're saying don't, you're saying the vulnerability is something to be guarded. Others are no longer to be trusted with your vulnerability. But what I'm saying is your teammates,

that needs to be a place where that trust resides. When you say, you're telling me I wouldn't have had this conversation in the locker room, and I'm saying, I would think at the the place where the strongest most united bonds are you guys lost together you suffered together You hurt together you you knew when the coach was an asshole when the boss was unfair you did her all together You shared all of it And you weren't protected because this was your brother who later in life would ask you to read his vows at his marriage because of what you meant to him. That's right. It's a blessing man. We share a lot of really special times.

The most special times of my career was playing alongside that guy. Not just on the court, you know, off the court. Special times, I remember when we were going to the club and he was a rookie and he was rookie of the year, he couldn't even get in the club because he was so young. We can laugh about all those times together. And I think that team camaraderie is, we lived in a time, it was before social media. I think that team camaraderie is,

we lived in a time, it was before social media. Now guys are on their phones on the bus. They're not drinking brewskis. You sound like such an old head. No, for real. Drinking brewskis. I know, but you're not a grandfather yet. Drinking brewskis before social media makes you sound ancient. I'm old. I'm, I am for basketball.

I'm old as I'm 39 years old for basketball. I'm a dinosaur. You sound like Thibodeau though. You can't sound like Thibodeau. You can't sound like you're as old as Thibodeau. After all of these years, I have been seeking throughout journalism certain stories and I've been very frustrated and sometimes I hope that a statute of limitations is run out and somebody comes around and says I can now tell you the truth of this story. I couldn't do it in my playing days. It was too controversial back then. Joaquin Noah, normally a truth teller, was too afraid back then to concede something I think he might concede now. Let's see this video here.

Do you think your coach looks like a butcher? Do I think my coach looks like a butcher? Yes, does he look like a butcher? He looks like a butcher. Come on, Joe Kim. He does. If I put an apron on him, it was a bloody apron. He kind of looks like a butcher. Listen, my Joe Kim. He does. If I put an apron on him, it was a bloody apron. He kind of looks like a butcher.

Listen, my coach can make me run suicides. You guys, you guys don't make me run suicides. Okay. Cowardice. I love Tims. Tims, I love you, man. I would never fall for that. Don't worry, Tims. I love you, man. Tims, I love you, but you look like a butcher. Come on. It can now be said after all of these years, I got you on the bloody apron.

Once I put the bloody apron on him, you're like, I see it. It's a good look. It's a good look. That's not confirmation. Does he look like a butcher? That's, you see what kind of shit you were on back in the day, man. Now you wanna talk about all this vulnerable stuff.

Right, right, but back then I was just, that's right, I was just a media member interested in attacking the physical appearance of your coach. Yeah. You're over here trying to get views and shit. That's it. Just cheapened. Cheapened pursuit of views.

That's what this is about. Uh, Joe Kim, thank you. I appreciate the candor. I appreciate you putting yourself out there, sir. Always nice seeing you. Respect, man. Respect to you, dad.