The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Katie Nolan

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

Some things are better left unsaid... yeah, no. It's been years since Katie Nolan and Dan worked together at ESPN and a lot has changed since then... in more ways than either of them ever shared with one another until now. Katie and Dan pull out all the stops in addressing the challenges they've faced since they last saw each other, the immense joy and growth they've found on the other side of pain, and clear the air on how things really went down during uncertain times. This is what friends are for. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's something about her presence that makes me want to say welcome to highly questionable, but it is welcome to South Beach sessions. She is my friend, my colleague, somebody I respect, a funny lady, a digital superstar, even though I don't know what that means. Thank you. I'm saying hello to you now, awkwardly broadcast. We've said hello before, more authentically, but I wanted to talk to you, Katie Nolan, about a variety of different things, but I wanted to start with the umbrella of both work and feelings. So choose which you want.

Do you want to talk about work? Or do you want to talk about feelings? Oh, what's work? I guess they're both, they're just very loaded topics. So we'll just jump right in. How much anxiety is there for you in work and how much do you hide in work? Because my wife has recently pointed out to me that I'm a workaholic. I did not think I was a workaholic.

You didn't? No. Do workaholics always know that they're workaholic? I guess you're right. It's one of my many blind spots. I suspect before this conversation is over, you will show me many more. I will encounter a few more. I would say I probably had that same realization during that transitional period that we kind of called the pandemic where I realized that I had been trudging along for a couple of years without really coming up for air and then I was sort of forced to come up for air when things slowed down.

And now the anxiety that I experience is a different type of anxiety, which is like, what am I going to do next, when am I going to do it, and what does it look like and how long can I take before I go back into doing it again. This most recent place I'm at in my life right now is the first time I like stopped working and it's very disorienting when your whole life has been structured around work. And obviously I say that knowing I wasn't working in a factory I didn't have an incredibly hard job But I did work very hard at it and so now I'm just at the point where I am trying to figure out who I am outside of my job While also feeling like I do need to get a job

So I guess that's where my anxiety in its current state. I wonder how much of that is scary and how much is freeing, right? Because the reason that I'm a workaholic would probably be because of so much of my identity being tied up in it and it being my most confident place. So if I'm more confident there than I am anywhere else, it's an excellent place to hide from all the places I'm more confident there than I am anywhere else, it's an excellent place to hide from all the places I'm not confident.

Yeah, that's a very good way of putting it. It's freeing. Very few people have the opportunity to not work for long extended periods of time in their life and just live their life. So I'm very grateful that I've had that opportunity to just like we moved into a new apartment. I redecorated it, something I've never done before. I'm like, you know, decorating a home, decorating a home for a for a partnership. Not just for you, you're decorating

it for what you imagine your future to look like. Exactly. And also, you know, you have to make decisions that are like, I hope this isn't something he hates, but it's also I want to be something that I like sort of merge our tastes together. I've been reading more. I'm like, you know, I have a chance to do what I want. I've been playing a lot of video games. I know that's not like as cool sounding as we're reading. It's a good not, but it's also a good place to hide. A good, mindless place to hide. Yes. So like, I've been able to just kind of chill, which is really nice. And I don't want to take that for granted. At the same time, it's, it isn't always easy to chill when your brain is constantly like, what are you doing? Go do work, go do something,

figure your life out. So I would say it's equal parts freeing and whatever the other edge of course. Well, but let me help me with this because I don't know the entirety of your story and I don't know how much the audience knows of your story. But you didn't happen upon an opportunity in sports, but it's an unusual path you took to a career in sports. And once you, I kind of did happen upon it. It's kind of fair to say, I know you don't want to say that because it doesn't sound nice, but it's true.

I was working on It's a weird story. I started a blog when I was in the period between I graduated college I was working it like I worked at an equinox selling gym memberships for a while. I hated that I worked at a chiropractor's office doing PR a lot of weird stuff I need to learn the stuff you didn't want to be doing. Yeah, I was like, I need to do something for me. So at that point, I started bartending. And my mom, my whole life, was a bartender. She had gone to school for speech pathology,

but she ended up just, she had kids and she bartended while my dad worked at an office job. And so when I started bartending after college, I was like, she'll kill me if this is what I end up doing for a career. So I do need something on the side that like keeps me mentally stimulated. So I started a blog and I took it way too seriously and I posted on it even though nobody was reading it like four or five times a day.

Because my theory was if somebody were to find my blog and go to look through it and see that there was like one post every month, they were going to be like, oh, it's not really serious. But if they saw that it had four posts a day, they might think we were a business and they might accidentally take me seriously. Which did end up happening. I had a website reach out and say they wanted me to do my blog for them, which I did. It was a website called Guyism. I don't think it exists anymore.

And I think the world may be a better place for that. And then they were like, we're going to do video content. We were going to hire somebody to write it and somebody to host it, but you can just do both. And I did not wanna be on camera at all. I was very uncomfortable on camera, but I was like, I'll try it. And then I did that.

I made these YouTube videos out of my apartment while bartending in Boston. I would work at night, obviously. And then I would wake up in the morning, make these videos and- What's the worst tavan? That's right, it's also closed, also probably for the better. I would work at night, obviously, and then I would wake up in the morning, make these videos and watch the... Or course tavern. That's right. It's also closed, also probably for the better.

And your mom was listening to sports radio all the time because she knew conversationally that it rewarded her with money if she could talk to the bartender. That is exactly right. Yeah, we listened to a lot of E.E.I. Oh, I'm sorry. I know. It was a tough... I didn't realize that it could be different.

I didn't realize that it could be different. I didn't realize that sports talk could be different. And that's actually kind of central to my whole ethos. But so I, you know, I did this video thing all on my own. I learned how to edit, which I've since forgotten how to do. I learned, I had a green screen in my apartment and lights and stuff. And then I was moving to New York because this guy as a company was like moving into an office.

And they were like, we'll give you $40,000 a year to move here. And I was like, that's a lot of money, not realizing in New York, it's really, that really wasn't much. So I lived in Hoboken with two women I found on Craigslist who are now like a lifelong friends of mine, shout out to Emily and Kierza.

And we, you know, I did that for like two months and two months into it, I got a call from Pete Flostellica who was like, they were, told me they were launching Fox Sports One and that he knew me from the internet and that he thought that I would be great for this 24 hour sports network that was gonna be a competitor to ESPN.

I remember I called my mom and she was like, you can't do that, you don't know how to do that. And I was like, I don't know, I think I can. And that's just sort of been my approach. My whole career has been like, well, why not? If this person thinks I can, then why not try it? And if I can't do it, then I'll just go back to the thing I was doing before.

I think I can always bartend. I feel confident saying that it's a skill I have and I can always go back to. But why not try to do this thing? And so I tried and I did it and I love doing it. And then I did it at ESPN for a little and I loved it a little less. Hold on, we'll get there, we'll get there.

Hold on, your mom though hitting you with that, I don't think you can do that. That hurt me just hearing it, like, wait a minute. I believe in something that might be a different path. I would love to hear something that felt like support. I think she, that's my mom, that's the way she is. I think she's very like, she would, she sees it as she would hate to tell me,

like you can do this and then find out that I can't, she would feel like she misled me. So I think she's always just very cautious and she's fascinated by the things I say yes to. And I think they scare her because she's like aren't you afraid you're going to fall on your face in front of everybody? And I feel like before I was less so and now that I'm older and I slowed down a little and I'm like, oh I see what she's saying.

I see why she feels that way. Also, you were fearless because you were young. Because I didn't get it. I didn't realize how scary it could be. I was just like, oh, why not? I'll try it. I know who I am, type of a thing. And now it's like, I know who I am,

but I'm also like, I know how mean people can be. And how hard it is and how much support it requires, which you've had in some places and you haven't had in others. But let's backtrack to where it is that you started to feel like you could do it. Like success was coming because it seems from my vantage point, like success came very quickly after that. Yeah. So when I started, I bombed my audition at Fox. They originally the thought was that I would be, I think the phrase they used was update girl. They

were, they had this idea for these news breaks that would happen throughout the day on the station and that they would have this sort of core of women that would do these things that then they could sort of build this, I don't know, world around. It wasn't like, they compared it to reality TV, but obviously it wouldn't, it wouldn't be that. But they just wanted this like stable of people. So I auditioned for that where I would like read the news. And I'd never used a teleprompter before. I'd done everything I had done in my apartment. I'd written it myself. I would memorize it. I would film it. And then I would cut. And then I would read again. And so I was in a room full of people, tons of people, where I'd only ever been

alone, tons of people looking at me and a jib with a tiny prompter on it. And I was like, I don't, it was terrifying. And I bought it. Competing against people who had training in this stuff. Had done this a long time. And I was petrified. And Pete Vostellica, the guy who had brought me in, called me after my audition and was like, okay, so that was bad, but I think it's because we put you in a position that you weren't ready for. He's like, I have another idea.

We're doing this show with Regis Filben called Crowd Goes Wild. It's based in New York. I want you to go. It's like a panel show. We'll have you go do that. So my audition went much better for that. And then the role they gave me was going to be the woman who sits on the couch that during the show they go to.

And they're like, let's check in on social media. And then the camera would come over to me. And I'd be like, oh, people are tweeting this, and this and that. And they had this proprietary software they were launching that was something like you could live vote, and it would keep track of during the show. but they didn't launch it until the show launched. And so they kept telling me this was going to be my domain, but they were like, we won't

know how it works until we launch it. So I was like, okay, I guess we'll figure it out as we go. What ended up happening was like that wasn't as interesting, I guess. It didn't have the impact that they wanted it to have. So, because it was TV, and because I'd always wanted to work in TV, and I wasn't as interesting, I guess. It didn't have the impact that they wanted it to have. So because it was TV, and because I'd always wanted to work in TV, and I wasn't going to waste the opportunity, I would go to the meetings in the morning where our panel, which had one, two, three, five people on it, I think, they would discuss the sports stories

and what they were going to say. And I would go, and I would chime in, if I had thoughts. Cause again, I didn't know. I didn't know that like you're not supposed to do that. If you're the new kid, you're supposed to just like shut up and you don't have to go to the meeting and do the things you're supposed to do. And so like I remember there was one meeting

where they were talking about hockey. And Trevor Price, who's got what, two super bowl rings, but you know, no Stanley Cups was talking about hockey and I, my family loves hockey. And I chimed in. I was talking about hockey, and my family loves hockey. And I chimed in, it was something about the role of an enforcer on a hockey team. I was trying to clarify for him how that works. And I remember Michael Davies, the executive producer,

being like, well, that's very useful to the discussion. He obviously said it in his British accent. But he was like that, maybe we should put you on the panel. Michael Davies, the reality television case. He did, he did, who wants to be a millionaire. He's currently the EP of Jeopardy, the greatest show on television. And he was like, we'll put you on the panel.

So they built this little, I didn't even have a place where my legs go under because the desk ended. So I just had like a little surface and I got out into the panel. And I think that was when I was like, oh, this is cool and it's going well, you're not failing at it.

And then when the canceled crowd goes wild and we launched garbage time, I think that was my like, it was like my space. It felt like decorating your room for the first time. You were like, they were televising the inside of your head, right? Exactly.

I remember in interviews, they were like, so what is this show? And I was like, it's just me in the show form. And I don't think I realized at the time how lucky I was to be able to do that. We were on at like 12.30 or it would get preempted by a long NASCAR race that had a rain out. It was hard to find us. And we weren't crushing it in the ratings

as we were on a network that wasn't crushing it in the ratings either and we were at the end of the day. It's funny though. It is funny to hear you talk about the thing about television that I always find funny is that there is a veneer that keeps you from real authenticity. And I think the success of your show was at least in part because, oh, I feel like I know that person a little bit. Like she's showing me a little more than I usually see from whatever it is the construct of television is where people are hiding in their character. And it's mainly because she doesn't know how to do anything else. It's mainly because it had never occurred to me to be

anybody but myself. And I guess that has served me. But I just, you know, I grew up loving sports and watching a lot of sports, and not watching a lot of sports TV, because they just didn't feel like they were talking to me. Anytime they made a joke, which I love jokes, I'm a big fan of jokes, they were always like, I was the butt of the joke or any time women were involved it was always like how hot they were and it was just like it didn't feel like it was for me and it didn't offend me. I wasn't like anti. I just would watch the games and I didn't know any of the people on sports TV. And so when I got on sports TV I was sort of like well let's

let me make it for the me's of the world, who don't feel reflected in the other stuff. And that's fine. That's 24 hours of programming. You can make 23 of it for what it is. And then just let me get that 24-hour, half hour. It was a half hour. Let me get some garbage time.

Yeah, exactly. Which is hence why we named it that. I remember the day I realized I was like, oh my God, that's it. Because you know, it's when the people, the scrubs get a chance to maybe impress you, maybe not, and the points don't really matter at all at that point, but they're still fun for the people who get to score them. Is that the happiest you've been at work, the making of that, the collaborating of that, the lack of pressure or expectations,

comparative to the ones that would come later? I think I wish I knew at the time the ones that would come later. I think I didn't at the time, I think at the time I was stressed. It was very stressful. It was the same with the blog, though. It sounds like if you're working, you're working seriously, whether people are watching or not, you're pouring yourself into it with unreasonable zeal.

Yeah, why do I do that? You care? Why? It would be much easier not to, I think. Oh, but you think people create any kind of art effortlessly? I would envy those people. Is it art though?

Is this art what we do? Just, it's our version of it. It's a playpen where you just said decorating my room. If you're going to show people the insides of your head and you're going to be performative about it, there's an intimacy there that is sharing. It allows you to connect. Like somewhere you learned whatever the things had to be

to connect with audiences that you were speaking to because you had a plan, you had a design, it looked like something that you might have been stumbling around in, but that seemed like a feature, not a bug. Yeah. Yeah, I think like, for me what garbage time is now in my old age is like the thing that now that I have the experience of working at multiple sports networks and doing multiple things of like, okay, I'd like to go, I'd like to take another shot at that, knowing what I know now.

It's the thing I think I will be the happiest in. It's the thing that I felt like, I mean, in the moment we would always say to each other, like we're gonna miss this. We're gonna look back on this time, me and my producers, so it was a small, small team, And I love all of them very much. I still talk to most of them, not as much as I should, but I don't even talk to my family as much as I should. I'm a very isolated person. But like we said, we're not appreciate. Like

we are taking this for granted. We're going to look back on this time and want to come back to this. But in the moment, I mean, we had to fight for every inch we wanted from a network. But when you say, when you say that you wish you knew, then what you know now, about the industry, or about your anxieties, and that you're going to be anxious doing whatever, and now you've grown more as an adult to know yourself better and know where your anxieties plague you and where it is that you can manage them. Which one of those would you like over more, the workspace or the knowing yourself well enough, knowing yourself for the industry?

It's the second one, knowing myself and the the industry knowing When to take a swing and when to not it's basically like knowing what pitch to take and which one is like okay That's the one I'm gonna hit Because a lot of having your own show is Navigating the people above you and I did not understand managing up at all above you and I did not understand managing up at all. I didn't participate and that's to my detriment. And also just in terms of like topics or jokes or sketches or like things you need, I was always willing to like fight for the thing we needed without ever realizing that like okay but if you're if everything you want from the network is a fight, then they're not going to want you around much because you're constantly fighting for something that if you were to look

at it now, you might not need. So I think knowing the industry better now, knowing myself better in the sense of like what areas I can put my energy into. Instead of trying to put my energy into everything, knowing to like, okay, 80% of my energy has to go here. And this is only going to get 20% of my energy. And I have to like be okay with that. And be okay with these two people taking most of their energy and putting it into that. And I'll give it my 20. And I have to know that that's gonna be good, instead of thinking everything needs 100% of me all the time. It's interesting because I would imagine

that that show was the most fun for you because it was early, you're hungry, you haven't been soured by things, and it's so new that the collaboration of being able to do that for a living is soaked in gratitude, pressure too, but then what comes after that is you have to make choices as an award-winning broadcaster with your career. When you look back at the entirety of your career, where are the do overs for you? Like where are the things that you would go back and be like,

I would have never done that. Or I wish I had gone this late. HQ, definitely HQ. No, I don't, I'm like, I'm now reevaluating my, I think I would still have left Fox. Fox Sports was in a transitional period when it's time for me. Excuse me, you had been traded for you, correct? They tried to, and I found that out, and they called me that morning, I was still at Fox,

I think I was still making garbage time, and they were like, you're going to see an article today. We just went, you know, we love you, we support you, and we want you to work here. And I was like, I have no idea what this is about. And then I saw it, and it were like, you're going to see an article today. We just want you to know we love you, we support you, and we want you to work here. And I was like, I have no idea what this is about. And then I saw it and it was like, they tried to trade. I don't even, it was like me and not. Who was it? It was a broadcaster. It was a game broadcaster.

It wasn't it? Dark. It was Ian Dark. Ian Dark. Ian Dark. Right? That's his name. You'll Google it. It was him, it was somebody else too.

It might have been Marty. I think Fox asked for Marty Smith, and I think ESPN was like, okay, that's too much, and then they called it off. But the way I actually ended up going was like, after many times of like ESPN and Bill Simmons, mainly before he left, like reaching out and trying to make this happen in Conor

Shell, who was at ESPN at the time. Fox was in this transitional period. I knew they were going to hire, they had just hired Skip, I think, and they were bringing in all of those types of people. And I just knew I wasn't going to be top of the, they didn't, I was the only one left in New York at that point. They were all in LA. I did not want to move to LA. I still don't want to move to LA. And so I just was like, look, this is no hard feelings. I appreciate everything you guys have done. I'm also just going to get out of your hair and I'm going to, I think I'm going to go over there and work at ESPN. And then of course I got to ESPN

and Connor Shell left and other people left. they got into kind of a transitional period and I was like, oh All right, so I don't know that I would say If I could go back I wouldn't have gone because it doesn't I think based on the information I had at the time I made the decision It's still the decision that I would make I just Wish it went a little differently. Well, let's we'll get to that part in a second, but what I remember from afar is it feeling to me unfair and pressurized for you to arrive with fanfare and then have people expecting something fanfare and then have people expecting something that popped. And it seemed like you had arrived at somebody.

And I remember many, many years ago in the newspaper industry, whenever a columnist would arrive who was being paid a lot of money, all the other reporters are noticing what that person is making. And I just remember feeling bad for you once your salary was published somewhere. And now, and now and now case. I know exactly where and I know by exactly who and I won't forget.

That aside, I think now that we've now that you've said that, what I would do differently is I would not sign that contract until it's said in it what I was going to do. I signed my contract with ESPN. It was very vague at the time. They did not know. They were like, we've got a whole video team and we want to do something digital with you and we want you to be the face of our digital presence. And we're going to pay you all this money. And I thought, okay, well, they're not going to pay me all that money and then not give me stuff to do. So don't just not sign this because it doesn't outline like you'll have a show, you'll

have this, you'll have that. It was very vague. And I think even the press release, when they announced that I was going to work there, I think the quote I gave them was something along the lines of making fun of how vague it was that they would not really tell me what I was going to do. It should have been a red flag, it should have made me be like, make them tell you what they want from you so that you can live up to it. Like if there's no bar then I don't know what measure I'm being judged by and that ended

up being what hurt me in the end is I didn't know who my boss was. I didn't know what they wanted me to do. I would get like little things that were cool, like, oh, go do the go coach the celebrity all star basketball game or the celebrity, whatever basketball game. But then which was amazing, amazing experience. And then it was like, and then what? There was no thing, and they had given me a team of people who I could tell were a group of, they had just like, basically laid off a division and given like, repurposed to those people. So it was a room full of people who make really good sports documentaries.

And their way of working was they would take raw footage and cut it into something interesting. And my way of working is like life to tape. I don't want to just record and give it to you and then have you make it into something. I wanna make the something with you. That was when you were happy, is that's what you were doing? Yeah, I don't like to just be like, blah, blah, blah, blah,

cut that into something worth watching. I wanna be a part, I wanna help, like I sat in on the edits for garbage I'm again, I know I did too much. I know I should have let other people do their thing and taken myself away from it a little But it was like a stark contrast of getting this team of people that I was I was like, well, you're they're not collaborative I am collaborative in nature. I like coming up with things Together and so what we ended up doing is I like, you know, Ashley Breyband, who was my life raft

at that company. She saw me right away and she was like, I recognize what it is you're trying to do. I align with you and I wanna help you do it. And because of her, then we got to the point where we're like, okay, let's pitch them a show because they're launching this ESPN Plus and they're gonna need stuff for it.

So just like, let's ask if we can have a show on it. I made a film in like a prop closet, a pilot for it just to show them what it would be, which I was like, it's just going to be garbage time. You just go watch the show. But so we filmed that and then they were like, yeah, okay, it was very surprising to me how easy it was to get the yes, but also how much it was like, well, is this the right, is this what you want me to be? Are you supportive of this or are you just gonna let me do this?

Well, that's the tricky part. I remember, there's still not sure what to do digitally. What they, it sounds like they hired you. We need to do digital, get the digital woman. But I remember at the end, after my father had left highly questionable, I was lobbying hard, unsuccessfully, ultimately, for so many people like you. There were only a certain number of seats left

anymore on television. They had all of these people who they were paying, but didn't fit in the places where they make their television. And so I was talking to Eric Ride, home the producer of Highly Questionable, about couldn't we make it so that it's not just me and Bomanie sitting there, but we have a team of correspondents daily show that are off making their own things and then bringing them to us and changing what the show is. And he said to me, not inaccurately, he's like, well, Dan, those things can be hit or miss.

It's hard to make five minutes of television over there. Why can't I just have you and Belmaning talk for five minutes? It's easier. And it, my suggestion might have been better, but it might not have been better, right? It might have been rejected because the format is, you talk on television,

people don't want something new all the time. And so it could have failed and we didn't end up going that route. But I was hoping to find a place for you that could feel more supported like that. You were the only, you did. Because I felt very like, I looked at the shows they have and was like, I don't really fit into any of these. I could do my version of it, but it doesn't fit as seamlessly,

and I didn't have anybody who was helping me smooth out the transition anyway, so seamless was kind of all I had. And you were that. Like your show became the thing that was like, oh, okay, they get it. They're just funny. They don't take it too seriously. They don't need me to come in and have some

take about the defense of some team. Like they know that there's more to talking about sports than talking about sports. And if it hadn't been for you, I think I would have, I probably would have left after the end of my first contract. And maybe that actually would have been better. But it was, you know, doing a highly question but was the best and the easiest and the most fun.

And I'm forever grateful to you. What version of you was I getting? Because I don't know what's, there's only one me. Well, I just don't know what state you were in. I don't know emotionally, right? When you're coming on television, if you're carrying in with you the anxieties

of why am I not support? I've got a staff of 10 people but we're not making the thing that looks the way and sounds the way that I want it to sound. I don't know what I'm getting. Like you're coming in and you're getting a little bit of the cotton candy, vanity, television, garbage, but you're not, it's not your show,

doing your thing your way, the full bloom of your personality. When we were doing them in person, when we were going to the Cleveland Air, when I first did my like, I think we did like a week at a time, I feel like my first time was a week, but it might have just been one day,

and then the next time was a week. When I came and did that, that was, I was still like, this is gonna work. ESPN's gonna work out, this is gonna be great. Then when we started doing it, pandemic was when you got me who was like, what's gonna happen? Because when I saw ironically,

and to me I still do think this is kind of paradoxical. Once sports shut down, I felt like I was gonna be the first cut because you see like, okay, this network's going to start making cuts because they're going to have to. And I'm probably going to be first out because I'm the most peripheral. But I'm also like, yeah, but I'm most, if there's no sports, I can still have a show.

So it felt to me kind of like, it could have been an opportunity for them to be like, hey, you have made a show out of your house before. You worked on YouTube, making self-producing all this stuff. Let's have you do that and make the non-sport sports show for when there's not sports. And that's not how it went. It was the other one where they were like, we're good. And so I think like you, to answer your question of who you got, you got me really wanting to make it work and like I was so nervous the

first time I did a heavy questionable and then got comfortable doing it and enjoyed doing it. And then the second half you got me being like I don't know what to what I'm going to do, what this is going to turn into. And like suddenly the future that I hadn't really thought about, I started to think about more and thinking about the fact that I was like, I don't know what it looks like. And that scared me. I see.

And then they laid off my co-host of my podcast without telling me. And then I was like, I'm probably going to go. I think I'm going to go. I so underestimated how nervous all of you guys were you hit it so well all of you hit it so well I just thought it's just me and my dad we're gonna cause it I underestimated that the entire environment is so mine that anyone walking into it would feel We also just want to impress you and we want your dad to like us. Like that's a fear. It's like when you go to someone's house and they have a kid and you're like that kid does not

like me. You don't want someone's parent to be like, yeah, all right. Who's this? What's this about? So, you know, it was nervous, but it was one of those things where like once you do it a couple times, you're like, oh, this is exactly what you said. It's just you and your dad and it was fun and relaxed and obviously you had a great team working behind the scenes on it. It was fun. Did you like it? I liked it much of the time. The whole construct of what it is that we were doing.

What you're speaking of now was very difficult, right? Imagine trying to establish chemistry again and again. It was like dating people on dating co-hosts on television I don't know Bermonding to a show with him. I don't know Dominique. I don't know Pablo. I don't know Katie. I don't know Sarah. I don't know Mina. Here they are. Here is, it's not going to be, it's going to be a Petri dish for let's give people reps and see what it looks like. So I enjoyed the effort of that trying to make it into chemistry with people that I don't know. But at the end, oddly enough, where it got most difficult is that my dad was secretly

not wanting to do it and didn't know how to tell me that he wanted to. I can imagine it be hard to tell you. I just couldn't imagine that he didn't want to do it because the entire construct was built so that I'm not even kidding you when I tell you, it was something to give my dad to do so that he wouldn't drive my mother crazy well at home because he had lost his job and his identity was tied up

and his job and I needed to really find something for him to keep him and the flipping of houses. Golf, a lot of people do golf You've meant my father my father is limited with the interests and so I can't imagine you know people are giving him a tuna sandwich For free because he's a celebrity and I thought he would want that for the rest of his life But he didn't want it. He wanted to leave and so my father oddly enough was the one who became most frustrating at the end It's a difficult question to answer because the initial concept for highly questionable was me doing a show for Eric Rydholm and Matt Kellerher who happened to be in the teleprompter. Instead of the teleprompter, it was just them in

the teleprompter and was me doing a show for them, not doing it for a television audience, not even doing it with or for a co-host, just trying to entertain two of my friends and make them laugh, which is the, you know, it's the birthplace of the radio show too, just like how do I make a couple of people that I like laugh. But yeah, the short answer to your question is yes, I enjoyed it, but the longer answer is more complicated than that. You told me I could ask you things and not worry about how comfortable you are. How is your relationship with Poppy now?

Oh, it's good. My father, like that remains the greatest blessing of my life. And when I say it was hard, it was just hard because I didn't understand. He did. I'm trying to do this thing for you. My God, it was a recreation of my entire childhood, right? I've got a father who's probably on the Asperger spectrum that I don't know as a child, why I can't make him excited or proud, and it's because he doesn't do excitement or pride.

So I'm like, I'm failing all the time. I'm not good enough all the time. And so here, like, dad, I'm on television with you. This is the greatest blessing of my life. Look at this. I get to grow old on television with you. We're closer now actually in doing this daily than we were at any point because we've got the connection point of we're doing this together. We care about sports together. It's a connection my brother never had with my father. And so my relationship with my father is as deep as it can be, as deep as my father can go, but I don't resent anything about that experience just because it became difficult at the end to manage an old man's. What I, one of the things I have learned as I've aged is that they become toddlers.

You end up taking care of them when they get to 80. Yeah. And how's that been? I mean, it's got its frustrations, but I love him and I, you know, I can never repay the debt for, I mean, what they did to get me to creative freedom is a debt that will live long after they're gone. But it's not a debt. I don't think it's a debt. I think like they had you and they wanted for you. So I don't think you owe, I don't want this to sound cold. I know what you mean by like, I owe my parents everything, but I also feel like that's what being a parent is, is like wanting better for your child and setting them up to be, to succeed and do what they want.

And I feel like your dad is probably on whatever level, I don't know if he acknowledges it, but he probably just feels like he succeeded as a parent because of how well you're doing and how you're able to do what you want to do. Well, it'd be nice if he told me. He probably won't. No, he won't because yeah, that's not his language, not the way that he does things. But the connection points that I have had with him over the years

are so wrapped in sports and the reason that I say debt and will forever say debt is because the specifics of their history where they come from communism to get to freedom and then position it. Keep in mind, my brother and I did not have kids because of the entirety of our lives was focused toward how do we make our lives have all of the things that we want in them. How do we grab all of the things that we want in them. How do we grab all of the things that we want and they created a scaffolding for that that you do not get in communism,

like they left as teenagers, Cuba. And so that's why they had a bravery that I would not have and they made sacrifices that I could not make so that I would never have to make them. And it's why I said to you, when your mom said, it broke my heart a little bit like, you can't do that. All they said was, you can, whatever it is, whatever it is, you can.

That was more mom than dad, but it got us on the path toward the things we wanted toward our life. Are you not having kids? I mean, at this point, I'm afraid to bring a child to one of those. I was gonna say, you, oh, I get what you're saying, at this point of the world, I thought you were saying, because usually for a woman, it's like, well, at this point, I'm afraid to bring a child in the world. I was gonna say, you, oh, I get what you're saying, at this point of the world, I thought you were saying, because usually for a woman, it's like, well, at this point,

if I am, I should have done it a couple years ago. Me too, if I was going to do it, I mean, at this point, 54 years old would be, I'd be, I'd be grandpa, I'd be man. You can though, that's the thing that's unfair, is you can, you could, at any point, just go, you know what, I do want these. And for us, especially if you're, let's say in your mid 30s and going through a transitional career period as well, boy, is it a difficult time to sit at home and be like, okay, well, you

have to make this decision because if you want to do this, if you do want to have kids, now's the time. So you've got to figure it out. So at least you get to not have a deadline on yours. You speak of the career transition, and I want to just sort of go through where the heart breaks lie, because last time we talked, we were talking about Dan, your fiance, Dan Soder walking in on you.

Dan Soder.com for toilet, toward it. And smiling at you, you're ugly sobbing on the floor. Oh, yeah. And he's smiling because finally he gets, he gets to see the real you and he's going to love up the real you as well. And you're no longer covered in shield and armor and barbed wire.

But the reasons for it are because it seems like this has been a hugely stressful career time if that much of your identity is tied up in work. You don't want to have that kind of uncertainty around it. Yeah. What was the question? The question was, what was happening in your life that led to the ugly crying right then? Oh, God, it actually just got off the phone.

I think it was actually got laid off. I think that Oh God it was I had actually just gotten off the phone. I think it was actually got laid off. I think that's what it was. I think you left. Maybe it was you left. I don't remember which happened first actually getting laid off or you leaving, but they happened very close to one another and it felt like I was at this point where I was like, okay, but I have this and this. And then they were like, well, you don't have that one. And then right away, and you also don't have that one. And I had, at this point, ESPN famously re-orged a lot. What was always getting an email about a new reorg,

we were gonna, this person's now in charge of this and this person's in charge of that. And every time there was a reorg my boss like whoever was my executive changed and and everybody who had been my executive at this point when I had my breakdown was gone they had all left. Connor Shell was gone. Oh wow so you felt the lack of support. Kevin Wild was gone. It's like everyone's gone. Kevin Wilde was gone. Kevin Wilde was gone. Yeah. Bill Wolff was gone.

And then Ashley's gone. They'd already laid off Jay, who was my, are like, you know, producer, and like third mic. Then they laid off Ashley. And then you left. And I was like, why am I still here? I'm like watching everybody get picked off. I no longer have any allies.

The only people that work here are the ones I have not gotten along with work wise. The ones who like, we'll work together, but we, like, I'm talking about people behind the scenes, we'll work together, but we clearly do not really like each other. And I just was like, what, for what? What is this for? And they had made me, oh, it was right after I had gotten, I had resigned. I had just resigned for another year at a number that was obviously a lot lower, which I knew was going to happen.

But I was like, look, I got this podcast I like, and I like doing HQ. And then right after I signed, they laid off Ashley and you left. And that's when I was like, all right, well, this really sucks because now I'm here for a year, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't have a co-host for my podcast that they just increased us to two episodes a week. So I'm like now putting out more output, but I don't have anybody to do it with. I don't leave the house. I it just felt like I didn't know what to do and I didn't know what anybody wanted me to even do. At least if I could get a sense of what they wanted from me

I can be like all right I can perform this and then go do something else that I want to do but this was just like What do you want? What do you even want? Did you just bring me here to like Stomp on my dreams to then be like, learn your place and then kick me out. And so I think I just lost it. And Dan, you know, came in and smiled and was like, you need to know who you are. You need to know what you did and what you've accomplished

and how you got here. And you need to know that whether or not this company is a part of it, you have that in you and can continue to do that. And this, I mean, he said this place sucks. I don't want him being held responsible for that opinion. I don't want people coming at him for saying it sucks, but he was like, fuck that place. And then, you know, that quickly became my mantra as well.

I wish you just pointed out a blind spot to me. I wish I had known this history when I called you after. That was, I do feel like we need to have a conversation about that at some point. I regret the way that that happened. I was in a bad place when we talked. You want to have it here? We can. We can. Let me find with it. All right, let me give the backstory here because we haven't had it. I've apologized to you about this profusely by text, but you and I have not talked about everything the backstory here. Because we haven't had it. I've apologized to you about this profusely by text, but you and I have not talked about everything

that happened here, so we might as well do it now. You ready? Yeah, I'm ready. So I don't know any of this, and I wish, I wish I had known that you had been, you surped a number of different times by, we don't know what the job is. Just come on over and we'll figure it out together trust us We'll figure it out. So I don't look at all this money. We're paying you. How could we ever not figure it out?

And so after I left ESPN I wanted you to come over to metal arc with us But I did not yet know what it would be. And you say you were in a bad space. I was manic. I was crazed. I've had nothing but success in my career. I've made all of my own choices. Just I don't fail.

I've got to go figure it out. And I don't know how I'm going to figure it out. And so I call you, and I want to bring you over to metal arc and do stuff, but I don't know exactly what Metal Arc is going to be because we're building Metal Arc. And if I had known that you'd been burned at every time, but I know you got to tell me exactly what it is. And I'm sitting here with the

passion of, what do you mean? We'll figure it out. It'll be wonderful. We're building a plane in the air. Yes, we'll build it, and there will be money falling from the sky. And I remember just coming on strong, not knowing that you were in a frail place and scaring you with my intent. Terrifying.

Because not only did you call, what happened is. So I'm sorry. You would call, thank you. That's okay. I'm sorry for ever making you feel like I wouldn't want to work with you. Of course I did. I was like hoping that that would be the thing that would happen. But then when you called me, and then as soon as we got off the phone, Mike Ryan called

me, and then as soon as we got off the phone, somebody else would call me. I felt like what it felt like to me was like you were like, of course you're coming. What do you mean you're not coming? If you don't come, we it felt like to me was like, you were like, of course you're coming, what do you mean you're not coming? If you don't come, we're not gonna be friends anymore. No. And I was like, I don't want, the reason that I was hesitant is because I didn't want to not be your friend because I didn't want to resent you as a boss.

I didn't want to get to a point where I felt the way about you that I felt about the company that I was currently at. But what did I do? What did I do that made you feel we're not gonna be friends? You were manic and you were very intense about well, what else are you going to do? And I remember you said, well,

you can't just be the cool girl your whole life. And I was like, I don't even know what that means. And I just remember being like, you are, you were very, and I understood it. I want to be clear, I understood that like, you were going through a very stressful period. But I also felt like you were like, not strong arming me, but sort of just like, let's go. Let's go. And I was like, well, okay, how does this company work? And you keep saying you don't work with agents. My agent does all my business,

and I don't know anything about business. So if you're not working with agents, I'm screwed because I don't know how to do the business side. I just know how to be silly. And so that party didn't understand. And then it was like, well, we're gonna have an arm that does producing, like television stuff.

We don't have that yet. And I was like, but then there was exclusivity that was like, you can't do TV, but We don't have that yet. And I was like, but then there was exclusivity that was like, you can't do TV, but we don't have TV yet, but we will have TV. And it just was too much, I think I was already in a place where I was too up in the air that I wanted something that was like, and it was obviously I was expecting too much,

and obviously, because it doesn't exist, because I don't have a job right now. But I just wanted somebody that was like, look, we'll pay you this. We want you to do this. You'll get to work with these two, three, four people. This will be the city you're based out of. It's, I needed it to be more structured because I am so unstructured. I actually benefit from being given structure so that I know the like, actually I always call

it a snow globe. If I knew the parameters, I could shake up the inside of it without spilling over. Whereas if it's like, you can do whatever you want, you'll work with whoever you want and we'll give and it'll be great and it's this, there was the not trust part of me for me as PN that was like, I need more structure. And then there was the part of me that was like, I don't succeed well in a, you can just do whatever you feel like that day. I need somebody to be like, here's what we need to do this week.

And we can do it however we want to, but these are the goals that we have. And this is what we're trying to make. So it was, you know, all of it together was just too much. And then I think it was the you calling, Mike calling, you calling, Mike calling, you calling, Mike calling, that I was just like, I still, I don't have a different answer than I just had for Dan.

I don't know what to tell you. You freaking me out. And that was basically that. I'm sorry we created yet more stress. That's okay, I'm sorry that I was stressed and that I wasn't in a place where I could just be like, yeah, let's go. I would love to be that person.

Everything in me wants to be that person who's just like, well, figure it out when we get there, but I'm not. I didn't understand that what I thought was passion was being heard as an intensity that was scary. Like, here's our opportunity. What do you mean? Now we can make our own thing. We can do it our way without me.

Can I be honest, honest? I really didn't want to move to Miami, and I thought that's what you were going to ask to do I hate it here I hate it here I didn't so sorry to Miami but I just it's not a lot of a lot of people do but I didn't I wasn't thinking that you had to move to Miami but I didn't know and I couldn't I wasn't really clear to me nothing was clear at that time it's him the industry since then has provided the clarity of, oh, it's all falling apart.

I know, it really is. You picked a hell of a time to be like, I'm getting into this, I'm gonna do this myself. How has it been terrifying? I mean, it's been exhilarating, frustrating, terrifying, harder than I thought it would be, not quite like I thought freedom, how I imagine total freedom would feel because it comes with a responsibility I wasn't expecting.

But I also hate all of the business parts of this. So when you say your agent handles that stuff, what we are constructing is a place that one day hopefully will have the trust of its employees so that the business is acting as an agent for them because we- Which is a beautiful idea. But that's the idea. We're free agents, right? We don't work for anybody. We have a sponsor- Well, they work for you, right? I mean, does it seem every day as you're listening?

If you listen, does it seem like anyone here works for you? I mean does it seem every day as you listen if you listen does it seem like anyone here works for you I just got done telling Kugler the producer of South Beach sessions why does it feel like I work for everybody here? Just got done telling him that before we started because it does feel like that most of the time. Yeah it did say we're cutting that? No, we, I don't, I don't have any proof that he edits these at all. These just run unfilled. You should, it's the whole point. They got to just run the way that they are. You have since learned what through the discomforts because I have found that some of the most fulfilling things I find, because

when you ask me, how has it been, it's been hard, but the most fulfilling things I've done in my life, all of them have been that. Without exception, I would say that's an absolute. They're the harder they are, the more fulfilling that they end up being. So when you break apart and ugly cry on the floor, you certainly, from there, you cannot see, whatever liberty looks like, or oh, maybe that was a good thing

But where are the things that feel good amid the uncertainty of What is my identity now if you alter my work identity? I think that I Mean the main the the first one the most obvious one to me, but I also just feel so silly as a woman being like, love. But the biggest thing from that was that I had a person who, because we were still early in our relationship, Dan and I when this happened. But I feel the same, just so that you know,

and it's not love of other, although you might articulate it in a syrupy way, it's that it allows you to love yourself. But I have found in love is some real healing, like just some, I can be more gentle with myself because this person is, she sees something in me I don't see. Yeah, we were, we were still early

in what we were becoming. And I think that was the moment where I realized that like this person is not watching my career and going, oh, it's on its way down, I'm on my way out. He was believed, it made me see that he was like, I think the things, the companies that are, the situation that you find yourself in

is not a reflection on yourself, which was something I needed to hear at the time and it also made me feel safe. It just made me feel like, okay, so he gets me. He's not like, oh wow, when we weren't dating, you won an Emmy, and now you're leaving ESPN and don't have a job. Cool, I'm getting you at your worst time.

He was like excited for, like he saw, the way you say that I couldn't see the good stuff that would come from it. I felt like I was looking in the eyes of a person, like literally looking in the eyes of a person who could see what would be coming down the road. And so I felt like, all right, whether he's, you know, telling the truth or not,

because that's the thing about love, you can't question it. You have to just go, I believe him. I was like, he can see that this is just a thing that's happening to me. It's a thing I will go through, and it's a thing I'm gonna come out the other side of. Now, depression is a bitch, and so coming out the other side isn't always as easy.

And the annoying thing about it is when you say that nothing good, or none of the most rewarding things in your life have ever not been hard. I think the thing that's so frustrating to me about depression is that it's just hard and it doesn't feel like it's hard for any reason. It just feels like an unnecessary burden and weight that you're constantly hoping one day you'll wake up and go, oh, it's gone.

And that's not really how it works. I want to talk to you about this because I want to see what the differences are between, I don't know how long you have felt depressed or knew of a diagnosis. I think I've read that it runs in your family, but the reason I wanted to ask you about this is because just recently, I've never really known what depression can be,

but I don't know what its similarities would be with grief. And I don't know grief just to make you feel immediately comfortable. I don't know. I've never, I've been very lucky to not have to know the grief that I know that you and that my Dan also has experienced in his life. I was very lucky, blissfully lucky to never have known it, and now what has arrived,

you just described it, is something I cannot get off of me. Just recently, I'm sobbing over breakfast, telling my wife, I'm broken. I'm just broken. There's something here that this isn't going anywhere. Like I can't get it off me. No matter what I do, I can hide in the work. I can pretend, but when does this go away? And so it's made me think of people that I have not

understood who are depressed. I'm like, my God, how hard that must be to get up in the morning. And it, hello, it's just there. And like, why are you still here? Like, get off of me. And it's a physical weight. Like, it's not even, I know it's, it's not a physical weight, but it's something that I feel on top of me. Did people, um, are you at the point where people try to help, but there's, um, I'm trying to think of the parallel to depression, because for a lot of people with, uh, depression will say, just be more positive or they'll say, you gotta work out. You should just start working out.

That's how you fix it. Are there like, trite things that people say to you that you're like, that's not it. Stop saying that to people who are grieving because that does not work. Or you just at the point where you're still just anything anybody says, you're grateful to have been able to talk about it?

No, quite the opposite actually. People don't seem to know what to say, although there does seem to be a select group in a grief club that sort of understand it and so walk around wearily around where the landmines are, but what I've done is hide and isolate. I'm not interacting with people outside of work very much because I don't want to do either the discomforts of you don't know what to say to help me because there is nothing that can be said and I don't also want to ruminate even with the people who helped me with the last year of his life. I don't want to start doing the memories and stuff.

It starts up because it just all hurts. All of it is still too fresh, too raw. I expect I will get there at some point. I left, we did the celebration of life for him that he wanted it done that way. All of these people who loved me dearly were there in support in a way that was moving. And I had to leave because I just, I could not handle.

I'm not equipped. This is so foreign to me. I don't have anything in the way of maps, guidance, and not, I'm not even ready to ask for the help that I need. But we can talk more about grief if you want, but similarly, when I'm asking you about depression, it's how I feel in the morning, because the way you described it is, I don't know why this is here, I can't do anything about it, and I know why it's here. That's the, I'm so jealous of that, not jealous of grief, but it's the most for me, in my experience with depression, the most

frustrating part is that it feeds itself. And so you're like, why is this? And then your brain will answer like, well, because you're just broken this way and it will never be fixed. And then you're like, well, if I'll never be fixed, then I shouldn't even bother doing this thing. And if I'll, if this is just always going to be this way, then I just won't even be a problem to other people in my life. Like, I'll just isolate. I don't, I won't reach out to this person because I'm just a problem. It's just a constant echo in your own head. And if there were something, I wish there were something I could point to and be like it's

because you're dealing with this. It's because this happened and now it's this but it's not. It's just because my mom had it and her mom probably had it but we weren't in a place where that was it was probably called hysteria when it happened to my grandmother but like it, it's just this thing that I think when I was working as much as I was, it's kind of like what you, it mirrors yours completely. It's like when you're working, it's still there, but you just are kind of drowning. It's like blasting music over a podcast you don't want to listen to. And then when the music is off, it's all you can hear. And you're just like, somebody turned this off, and you can't. And so a part of me was like, you know, I want to find out who I am outside of work, like I said before. And then another part of me is

like, well, I'm depressed outside of work. So I just kind of want to work. And it's like, you know, I'm at the stage, you were just saying, you're not ready to be out. We're like, okay, I got to start asking for the help that I need. So like during the pandemic, I got on medication for it, which had been something I was like hesitant to do for all the reasons that we, it's easy to say, like, don't worry about the stigma. Don't it's, it get the help you need, but just for some reason doing it,

you're like, give it not, I don't, but I shouldn't. I shouldn't need this. But what a mind fuck this is on your self-esteem to just have the sentence anywhere near you, something needs to be fixed. Like something about you needs to be fixed. Like when I'm telling my wife, I'm broken, I'm broken. That when you can't identify

why you're broken and you're like, and you think that you need fixing, that'll fuck with yourself, esteem perpetually. Especially when, and this may be too personal to me, but especially when you're at a time in your life where when people ask you what you do for a living, it's hard, I'm like, I'm a host, I'm a sports comedy host. And then

when you're looking, I'm looking for things to do and trying to imagine myself in different places. And like, I ask, Dan, I'm like, what is it? What, what, what, what is it that people, is it, what is my thing? And he'll say, it's just you, you're you, you are uniquely you and you're you all the time, you're you in every room no matter who you're with, you're just unapologetically you. And that is, you know, endearing or entertaining. And then me hates me. And so it's a very difficult to be told that the thing that I bring into the world is the thing that I, that is like the, to be told that it's me and then me knowing that me thinks me is broken. It's just very, it's very difficult to, I know that's such a strong term, man, that to apply to yourself hate? I don't resent, I guess, is the better word? I just, this

is where that dream of driving in the backseat of a car comes from. I just constantly feel that, oh, yes, sorry. I'm not listening to every hour that we're putting out there. You aren't. But Katie has a recurring dream that she's in the backseat of a car that's out of control and she's trying to get seat of a car that's out of control and she's trying to get to the steering wheel and she can't get to the brakes. And someone tweeted, oh, I know exactly what that is. It's that you aren't living up to your own expectations for yourself. And I was like, bling, the roulette.

Or can just be that life feels out of control sometimes. Yeah, it's just, you know, this is the stuff that eventually I do have to, the thing about medication, going on medication and the thing about getting a therapist, the part that's always prohibitive to me is that early stage, because for anyone who's ever been on antidepressants, they don't know which one to start you with. So they're like, all right, we'll start you with a low dose of this one. And then you have to wait a long time because it's not like, some medications are like, oh, you know if it's working.

These are like, give it 60 days and then we'll see if it worked. And then if it didn't work, it might be dosage or it might be the medication. So then you have to, you know, when you go to the eye doctor and they, they're like, is it one or two, one or two? And you're like, they're very similar. And if I get this wrong, my prescription is going to be wrong. So it's all on me. And I have to pick the right one. That's how it felt going through antidepressants. We were just like, I don't know. I guess I got out of bed more than I was before I was on it. But I still feel miserable. And then like,

okay, we'll try this one. Same thing with therapy is like you have to go through that first step of like you might meet a therapist Who sucks? Some of them suck and it's the person you're gonna open up to and like, you know Ask for help with your life and you don't want to do that with somebody that you don't trust and building trust takes time That's the part of the thing that my depression is always like, well, it's not worth it because the world's going to end and you're not going to get better. You've always been this way or I was going to be this way. So don't even bother, which I know is not, I want to make clear. That's not true.

I'm just telling you what happens in my head. And then I just bail. And then I go, you bailed. You bailed. You're a failure. You can't even see this through. You can't even go do this. How are you ever going to get anything done?

And it just becomes this cycle that feeds itself in a really cool way. It sounds pretty poised. It's now thrown in, by the way, the doubt of you've been getting your identity from work, success at work. And now there's uncertainty there as well. It all makes for a challenge to your strength that it's easy for me to say over here, will make you stronger.

And it's easy for me to say over here, I don't feel strong at all. I feel incredibly weak right now. I have been going to the gym, and it doesn't cure your depression. So anybody who told me that if I worked out, the endorphins would be wrong. But I am doing it. So nobody has a fix and you're trying anti-depressants and they're also side-effect risks with some of that. Oh, so many of them that take a lot of joy out of your life ironically. The things they make you not want to do are things many would call pleasurable

But boy do they kill that look like we can make you not sad, but you're also not gonna be the happiest You know what I mean Yeah, that that part is it it feels like life though, right? You keep, you find love, love of yourself, love of others, healing. Who do I want to be my partners? Who accept me and understand me the way that I am without trying to fix me or change me? Like, all of it, when I, when I said before and we were talking, well, I was manic because I, I didn't know what it felt like to be failing professionally. I've never been able to treat failure as learning. It's just failure. And then I ravage myself.

Yeah, I remember, they used to always say to me, you gotta let, it's similar, I'll get there. But when I had producers that worked on my show with me, I would always wanna fix everything before it went on air. And they were like, you gotta let their, like an idea fail. And I was like, that's my hell. Not only is it not mine. I'm presenting it as if it's mine. And it's bad. And it's going to fail. I was like, I can have that. Like, I'll try my thing. And if my thing doesn't work and it fails, that sucks on its own. But like performing somebody else is something knowing I don't like it, but that I don't have time to fix it.

And then knowing other people aren't gonna like it, and it's gonna be perceived as a failure of mine, was like, why would I do that? That sounds miserable, but it is the way that things get done. You just have to go make a thing that isn't your favorite thing every time. Not everything can be your best piece of content you've ever made in your life. And you just have to accept that. That's very hard. What a great partner for you to have just not even knowing Dan just as a fiancée, just stand up comedian has to work on his own, understands that it's not about the company or the support group. It's the expectation at the microphone and it's the hardest way to make a living and entertainment

And there's gonna be a lot of failure in it Yeah, he also Is the funniest person I've ever met in my life and when you are sad I highly recommend Surrounding yourself with the funniest person that you've ever met in your life so that when like I now get like he makes jokes about my life and they make me feel better about it. It's like I have my own I feel like I cheated the system by getting him for the rest of my life because now like my favorite comic his material is is my is like my pain and his pain which is my pain.

And it's like having a custom made. I feel like I have a, he's like a cameo I paid for, and he just is like, happy birthday, and it's the best. It's absolutely the best. I recommend everybody do that. Date a very funny stand up comic. How would you, I think we might have some parallels here, right? Because ostensibly, because of my marriage I would say that Valerie is the reason

that I am there happier than I've ever been but because of the difficulties in constructing a business combined with and I at some point here, I will tell the stories of what the horror of the last year have been because beyond. Can we not do that now? We're not gonna do it now, but there are some details here that I think would inform how difficult it is for me

to manage the circumstance of, I'm happier with the partner I'm with and feel more complete in a relationship and healing than I've ever been by leaps and bounds, but I'm also leaning on her in a way that makes me apologize for, man, I'm sorry, I like, I can't get the energy up in here to be more positive because I've just got an anchor on my neck all the time. And I don't know what to do with those two feelings. I don't know what I'd do without her.

I would be like, I just can't even imagine how lonely and dark it would be without her. But here I am, like you are, in the greatest happiness I've known over here. But then you've got this thing that I'm treating and you're treating that is a profound unhappiness there. How do those things mix for you in terms of overall happiness where you're going to get your blissful marriage utopia, but also you're hating yourself as you think you're failing at antidepressants. At its worst, so there's not where I'm at right now, but at its worst, he's on tour, he's always on tour. He's most weekends, Thursday through Sunday, he's gone.

And most weekends, Thursday through Sunday, were bad times for me, which was when I realized that it was like, okay, we can't become emotionally dependent on a person entirely for our happiness. But it's like when something, it's like saying, it's really sunny over here and it's pouring rain in a hurricane over here. You're like, well, I'm going to go spend as much time as I can in this part, in the sun. And then when the sun would leave to go to Minnesota for a couple nights, it was just constantly raining. And, you know, except we would talk

and then the little sun would come in. But it made me be like, well, why would I, I'm happy here. Let me just stay here. And, you know, where I'm at now is like, that's unsustainable because I know if I'm being honest with myself long term, I'm not gonna be like, well, I'm just a wife.

And that's what I am. And I know that really like tangibly, especially on trips like this, where we are here to visit Mike McDaniel, who is Dan's friend from middle school, but also the head coach of the Miami Dolphins. And I'm in a sports context, a sports world, we're going to a football game, but I am, I fall into the wife category. And so they'll go, they'll take Dan down to the field to do so, and I stay with the wives.

And in that moment, I'm like, what's, this is uncomfortable for me. And that's how I know, like, this is not what I, that's not the relationship I want to have with the world. I am honored, it is a privilege to, hopefully one day, because we haven't planned this wedding at all. But to one day be Dan Sotar's wife, I can't believe I get to be that. But I also, I don't want that to be all that I am.

And I also think he deserves it to be, I think he wants to, for me to be my thing. And so it's being as happy as I've ever been in that part of my life and miserable and scared and like a like a shaking person in the corner in this other part of my life is hard. But I'm trying to teach myself to you to let the sunshine be fuel to then take into this other part and like get to work on it. So that's where I'm at. But it is transitional. It is you I don't think people understand how hard you had it. And even with success coming early, this industry and you everyone who did highly questionable taught me this

because it was obvious all the time that I could make a hundred mistakes where you were not allowed to make one. And that you guys were mercilessly pounded by a whole lot of cavemen in the audience who made, well, but it was, yeah, some cave women, but a lot of cavemen. Let me tell you, in baseball, it was a lot of cave women, but I guess we can save that for another part. Oh, but that was the Apple experience

because you did, well, God, oh my goodness. I know, we have a lot. That's a big one. Well, because, yeah, that's not a great fit for you just because the sanctity of baseball here comes Katie Nolan. But I was like, look, I love baseball. Baseball is my favorite of all the sports. Let's go do this.

Let's do this. And then week two, I was like, why did I do this? Yeah, baseball is a bit too much of a church for what it is that you do. But I don't know that I can articulate for you how hard it was, but I saw it from my chair and it made me feel bad for all of you that you couldn't have a thing out of place to. I mean, you taught me it and I hurt for you and for Sarah and Meena, because you had to be so much better than the man.

You had to be better than the man. I was watching the 49ers game last night and they have a male cheerleader. They may have multiple, but when Dan and I went to a game, I locked on to this kid. I loved him. His name is Jonathan. And I was rooting for him.

He's such a good cheerleader. And just somebody I was talking to last night said, the male cheerleaders are so good. And I was like, they have to be. They have to be the best to get to do the thing. And it mirrors a lot of things. But if you're the minority in any way in some type of field, you have to be better the best. That's why I wish I like want to maybe I sucked at baseball, depending on what you were expecting me to do. But another part of me is like, in that true equality, if a woman can go just suck at something and still get to do it,

don't you think that's how we get to be really fair, that she's not like the greatest at whatever it is that she's expected to do, which again wasn't very clear and I really need to learn to ask people what they want for me before I say yes to a job. And get it in writing because sometimes they'll tell you and then they'll change it the second week and you're like, well, but I can't do that thing. I only know how to do this thing. I wish though that broadcasting would change a little bit more because I don't understand how it is that the comedian or someone who's funny can't work in sports of all places. It's the part.

It should be the easiest. I truly think it's because comedy a lot of times is how you deal with pain. And I truly think it has something to do with the fact that in political, because political comedy has worked, I think on TV, better than sports comedy has. There's two teams for the most part. Should there be? No, but there's two teams. And so you just pick one and make jokes about the other

or some self-aware jokes about yourself. But in sports, it's like, well, in football, you know, you got 32. And like baseball, you got 30. So it's like these divisions that as soon as you step, as soon as you make fun of my team, well now I don't like, now I don't like what you have to say.

And it's also this over here is like real. Politics is like very real and we need to laugh at it to deal with it. Sports is so silly that we almost do the opposite. We take it so seriously when we talk about it because if we're afraid that if we get silly about it, then the whole thing's just going to be silly and what's the point. But you coming over to baseball is exactly what I would want for the future of baseball and Apple.

Please do a broadcast differently than it's been done. But it's also the worst possible match because baseball rejects things like that summarily. Like baseball does not have time for what do you mean she doesn't know his on baseball plus slugging because donovan Salano is a stupid OPS and whip and you're like all right it's homework you've made it homework you've succeeded i enjoyed watching this thing and now i look at it like a math equation. Thank you very much.

But look, I'm a baseball fan. So then like a part of me was like getting mad at them and then I'm like, well, I mean, that's me. But it's, I, I, the same thing I said about ESPN. It's like, when I was younger and I loved sports, none of it felt like it was for me. And so there's got to be somebody who loves baseball, but it's more to death by the booth, just like me. And so I'll just make it for me. And so there's got to be somebody who loves baseball, but is born to death by the booth, just like me. And so I'll just make it for her. It just gets really hard when you get a lot of people screaming at you and you start to overthink everywhere. You

say, I've never been more self-conscious than I was in a booth for baseball, which I think when 20 years from now, when I hear myself say that sentence, I'm going to be like, of course, why did you put yourself in that situation? And it's because I don't like myself, Dan. It's because, you know, my tweets, my app replies or whatever, weren't mean enough. I wanted to get into a booth and take the abuse that they give to Joe Buck. How would you explain to people, though, what it is that you have gone through understanding with the qualifier on the front end? Look, everybody has big problems.

They're bigger problems than these people are mean to me on the internet. But I did learn from you and others who were younger than me. I come from a newspaper background since I've been 20 years old people and write nasty things to the newspaper columnist, but there is a new generation, I'm less connected to social media than most, it would be a real ravaging what you would get from these anonymous voices

who would take great delight in their cruelty, not knowing that it was actually landing in a way that was poisonous, not just to you. I saw it all over the place in ways that made me hurt for you guys because the cruelty around sports and the cruelty toward women in sports really did make me wonder if the audience hates women. But if you say that then they're like, oh, everything can't just be misogyny. Maybe you suck at your job and you're like, Yeah, maybe. But also I

can tell you from reading the words that were written, there was a little at least a little bit of misogyny in it. Because why are they bringing up that I'm a woman? Why is that coming up so often? If it has nothing to do with the criticism. But I think the most shocking part for me is when you tell them, because you said they're being cruel and they're not really realizing that it's landing and hurting. There was a point where I just kind of told them. I was like honest about like, oh yeah, I thought this basically, especially this is for baseball specifically.

I thought this was going to go a certain way. And I got torn apart that first week and like I didn't speak for the like the eighth inning because I was so shocked by how much everybody hated me. And they reveled in it. They loved that. They celebrated that. They're like, we got through to her. We hurt her.

And that's when I was like, whoa, because like, it's a lot easier to do the thing where you're like, that's just a guy in his mom's basement, and he has no idea that you're reading it and he's got his own problems and he's just lashing out. And if he knew that you saw it, because I know a lot of times if you respond to somebody's tweet in their mean and anybody who has like a following on Twitter will, this will resonate with you, you reply

and they go, oh, I'm a big fan. I don't know why I did that, but this time, it was like, good. I hope it hurt and I'm gonna big fan, I don't know why I did that, but this time it was like, good, I hope it hurt, and I'm gonna keep hurting you. And I was like, damn, that's scary. And I don't know if that's what to attribute that to. It's probably a number of things, but like Twitter right now, and X,

is completely different than it was when we did highly questionable together. It was a pretty toxic place. It is now a garbage heap of like, I don't understand how to use it anymore. And it's what I came up through. It was my favorite social media site. And again, it had its problems. It was not perfect.

But it was, you know, now it's just like, why is this being amplified to me? What is this? Who is to me? What is this? Who is this person? It's all just engagement farming. So you know, it's all a mess. It's all a mess. And so I think, you know, the lesson I've taken away from it is like, you can't, the way they say you can't take, you shouldn't take advice from somebody, or you shouldn't listen

to criticism from somebody you wouldn't take advice from. It's like you shouldn't, you can't give over control of your happiness, your emotional state to a stranger who is not going to be gentle with it. And what was always hard for me is I came up on the internet and I came up being very interactive with my fans. And so it felt very phony to be like, why don't you check my mentions? I don't interact. Those are those people and I am in the media. No, but you're part of your charm though

was actually trusting them with vulnerability. I know. You came, that's a mind-fuck man, to go that your success started with, wait, they like that I'm more honest than most about my vulnerabilities. Oh no, they can't be trusted with my vulnerabilities. Oh no, they're stabbing me. Oh no, I cannot give them more honesty, made me more charming. Oh no, if I give these people more honesty,

they're just going to weaponize it against me. That's quite the shift. Yeah. You made fun of me for being old the entire time we were on highly questionable. I'm still reeling from the photograph you have of me looking like a dad, a proud dad, as Mike Ryan DJed, looking so cute. 75 years old. So cute.

And because of how old I am, and now I get to make fun of you because the internet turned on you and your vulnerabilities. Yeah. I think the lesson for me was I just pulled back from it. And obviously I'm in a big stage of pulling back right now in general. But like the thing I didn't want is for it to teach me that being vulnerable is bad. Because I still do believe in my heart that like if everybody were vulnerable, it would not, there'd be no such thing. You would just be, you know, existing and not putting up some, you know, facade and not

pretending to be something you're not. Obviously, that's never going to be the case. There's always going to be people looking for your weakness so that they can exploit it. But instead of just then pretending you don't have weaknesses, which I'm incapable of doing, just protect you when you need to. I don't check that website the way I used to because I know I'm not in a place right now. If somebody said something, it'd be like, well, that's it. This is the word on pack it up.

It's over. I just, I know that I can't take it right now. I don't have to tell, I know I'm on a podcast saying, I don't have to tell the word. I'm not gonna tweet like, blah, don't be need to be. I'm just not gonna tweet, and I'm not gonna check it as much.

And I'm gonna protect me and the thing that I have. Because I still don't really know what my value is to the world, but if people are telling me that that's part of it, then I'm not going to let somebody that doesn't like me take it away from me. That's like my thing. So leave me alone. And I'm going to keep it over here. Thank you for your vulnerability here.

Thank you for your vulnerability in general. I hope you're around here more. Maybe not in Miami because you're here. Thank you for your vulnerability here. Thank you for your vulnerability in general I hope you're around here more maybe not in Miami. Never. I hate it so sticky all the time But at least you see the studios in New York that I was dreaming of two years ago when I This is a really nice studio. This is a really nice one in New York We'll get you one with Pablo more often. I know the yeah, know our fans are a little, a little bit of a safer space for your vulnerable. I love them. I'm not just saying that because I'm talking to them right now, but I love them. You're, you know, every fan base has a couple that you're like, but this is my like, favor, this, you've got a good, you've attracted a good group of people.

Thank you for sharing your story with them. Thank you for sharing all of this with us. I still don't know why anybody would listen to this, but I'm happy to. Thank you for having me and caring and asking questions of me. Who cares? Aaron is right at the end. Who cares? Who cares?

Who cares? What's her deal? Who is she? What's her deal?