The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Larry Wilmore

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

Comedy is lucky to have Larry Wilmore... From his beloved Los Angeles, the Emmy Award—winning producer, writer, actor, and comedian explains to Dan how it all began with him writing for the iconic "In Living Color", taking the "high road" after getting fired as executive producer from "The Bernie Mac Show", and how "The Daily Show" led to the dream of hosting the White House Correspondents' Dinner for President Barack Obama (not to mention his own groundbreaking late-night show, "The Nightly Show"). Larry also reveals some news about his long-running podcast, "Black On The Air", and then has some other tricks up his sleeve... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Draft Kings Network. come out west to get the funniest people, to get the best people. Larry Wilmore has been not just a face and voice for comedy in front of your face, but he's been doing a lot behind the scenes as well. His podcast, very popular and interview podcast, Black on Air with the Ringer. When I describe you as actor, writer, comedian, producer, and creator, if I give you the choice of those five, which one of those do you most like? Which is the one that you say? the one? You know what? I think of all one's probably producer. I think because I like putting the puzzle together is my favorite thing. I enjoy being on camera and acting and performing, but there's

something about putting the puzzle together that appeals to me a lot, you know, figuring the thing out, which is tied to creating, too, you know, creating TV shows and that kind of stuff, which I'm always in the middle of doing at some stage and probably doing several at the same time. So that kind of 3D chess. It's just fun. You're putting people together, putting ideas together. You don't know if something's going to work, you know, really until it gets on its feet. And then it's a living organism. It's not just an idea, you know. So there's a lot that goes into. Most people, though, who are on camera or front facing. I was expecting almost everyone I talked to who has been a stand-up comedian chooses stand-up comedy as the one. But you've made so many things in so many places for those

who don't know in the creating of the Bernie Mac show and Jamie Fox, you've done a number of things behind the scenes to elevate the talent of others and it seems like you get a lot of gratification from that one. Yeah, you know, it's funny about that. I think as a person, I just always felt more comfortable talking about somebody else's thing than my own. So even as a comic, I enjoyed stand-up comedy,

but it is a bit torturous, it can be. But, you know, you get that direct connection with an audience. And so there's nothing like stand-up comedy in terms of the directness that it gives you in the response, you know. I also perform magic, too, and say to me, I performed the Magic Castle. And that's, it's a cousin to stand-up, but it's different because you're getting a reaction of wonder from the audience and this different thing that you don't get from any other thing. So that's actually, I didn't even give you a magician. If I'd given you a magician, you might have taken magician over producer. I might have chosen.

You've been a magician since a very young age, correct? I was a kid, seven years old, yeah. So is that what you thought? If I'd asked seven-year-old Larry Wilmore, hey, what are you going to be when you grow up? It would have been a magician, and you did do that. You have done that. I probably wouldn't have said I'd be that at seven. I would have said astronaut, is what I would have said, you know.

So you failed? I failed horribly. I never made it into space. Well, and plus, I wasn't. I'm sure brothers were allowed to go in his face at that time. Well, they weren't back then. No, they weren't not. I had a podcast with, what was his name?

God, it escapes me now. But he was the first black astronaut who was in the Gemini program, actually. And it was fascinating to hear his story talk about it and how he didn't quite make it to the end, you know, because, you know, there was a huge wall against that. But, I mean, he basically, you know, he was in all that dream of that and everything in that time. It was so interesting. It was one of the funest conversations I ever had was talking to him. And yet his name is forgotten to not just history, but also you who talked to him. I know, I know.

Robert Lawrence? Because I don't want to get it wrong. Robert Lawrence? No, no, no, no, no, no. It's the same as another astronaut. But see, I'm just getting forgetful. We don't have to get stuck there. I know, Dan, it's terrible.

I get so forgetful I used to do a joke about like if you know the old saying if you didn't if he didn't screw his head on what is the joke like he would forget it

you'd have to see I can't even remember he would leave his head at home leave his head at home okay so me I remember to bring my head I would just forget to actually screw it so during the day I'd be driving you know the head would just come off

I go fuck I didn't screw my head on Guy Bluford is his name no now you're just making stuff up No, it's Dwight And it's But it was the same as the other As the white astronaut

Who did the first spacewalk See that much I know Okay, so we've really gotten stuck here In some space quix end No, but this is where the magic took us Because I want to talk more about the magic You are a magician Who is performed in front of crowds

And you are saying that the best feeling Is the awe and wonder It's better than laughter There's nothing close No. Especially today. I feel like today adults rarely get to experience wonder. You know, they experienced as children. And the last time as adults, I think we collectively experienced wonder. Arguably, I would say it was the moon landing, you know, where the entire world didn't matter what your age was. Truly experienced what wonder feels like, you know. There was nothing had existed like

that, you know, maybe some events, but not collectively like that. especially with technology and advancements and stuff, people are so like, I mean, AI, the most incredible thing in the palm of your hand, people are like, eh, whatever, this is incredible, these advancements, but people are just, eh, whatever. So magic takes that away. It takes people back to the feeling they used to have when they were children, when that's stripped away from it. You don't get to have that feeling after a certain age.

And so how do you, how often do you do this? because you mentioned performing at the Magic Castle. Right. Well, I practice it every day, you know, which I've done most of my life. But I don't perform it all the time just because I'm busy doing other things. So I choose times when I can go out into the world. But last year I did a special, a little mini tour because I was really interested in the election. So I decided to put together kind of a politically themed to magic kind of experience night, which was kind of fun.

Do you have cards on you now? I usually do. And I was going to say, no, I probably shouldn't bring them. So I actually had that conversation with myself. And so you failed again. You've been waiting all your life for somebody to just ask you, do you have the cards on you right now? Is there a deck of cards here?

Because if someone has a deck of cards, I could do something in front of you. We'll send someone out. And then you know it's not pre-set up. We'll have it at the end of the show. We'll get somebody to go get something. But when you talk about you were as a child, you were a science. You were a science and magic nerd. Right.

And you were, how do you get to comedy from there? Well, comedy, I always loved it too at the same time. My first love was Flip Wilson on television. You know, here's a black performer, you know, who's the funniest thing I'd ever seen, you know. And I used to imitate him, and my dad used to have us do skits in our living room and stuff like that, you know. Is he legitimately at the time the only black comic on television? He was the only one to have his own show and his own variety show. Nat King Cole had a variety show, you know, he was in a comedian, of course, in the 50s

and it was canceled because the South just didn't want to buy products, you know, that were advertising on a black person show or whatever, even though he had the highest-rated show. So it was kind of a, it was a revolutionary act to have your variety show, you know, as a black performer at that time. It just wasn't done. I didn't know that much as a kid. I just noticed that there's nothing like it on TV. you know and flip wilson was so funny you know it's funny that he's not talked about as much now

but he was huge at the time you know just so infectiously funny so i kind of when i looked at that as kid not knowing i would be comedian but i used to imitate them all the time you know i would read everything i could about them and that kind of stuff you know and so he was kind of my first comic hero i think it's interesting though that more your your comedy runs more jewish than it does black right in terms of the roots of your comedy it really does you know Mark's brothers were a big influence early on, even people like Jack Benny, you know, who's some older names. Sid Caesar, I remember seeing that kind of, some Mel Brooks when I got a little older.

I had many, some friends, Jewish friends, and the kind of rhythm of that. Neil Simon, I'm a huge fan of his plays and that kind of stuff. But there's something about the use of language and the rhythm and the point of view and all that kind of stuff. really always kind of related to in Jewish humor. What were the schools you were going to like growing up? Just you mean like just primary school? I'm saying are you in black schools? Are you in like what company are you keeping growing up?

I was always in mixed environments where as a black person, always in the minority. So when I was real young, we went to the local public school. by fifth grade, we went to Catholic school. Public school was, yeah, it was kind of, it was a little bit diverse, but not that much. The neighborhood was, it was still a mix of black and white and Mexican and that kind of stuff. I grew up in Pomona, California. But once I went to Catholic school, there were hardly any blacks there,

and it was mostly Mexican-American and white. And then my high school was mostly white, few Mexicans, There's been very few black people. My friend Rick and I, we were the only blacks in our class for most of the four years there. You know, I think there was maybe one other person, but that was it. And how was that? Did you fit in? It just is what it is, you know.

At the time, I didn't, I mean, I would make jokes about it or whatever, but, you know, I still lived in a neighborhood where there were a lot of blacks. I still had a lot of friends, so that was around, you know. but I always felt like even as a young person and I say I always felt like I was a family reunion but I wasn't in the family in the situations so I always felt on the outside looking in in many different situations school was just one of them what are the others um socially um because I was in different things I felt like I never fully belonged in one of them you know so sports was a big deal in my neighborhood. I grew up in a real sports neighborhood. We had different people that went, played pro ball that came out of my neighborhood, even just on my block alone. On my block alone, a few doors down, Bill Duffy, who's a big sports agent now, right? He was like my older brother. You know, he went to Catholic School. He went to Damien High School, in fact,

where I went to him. A couple of houses from Bill was Greg Ballard, played for Washington Bullets. He went to Gary High around the corner. Across the street from him was Coroner Webster, played for the Seahawks eventually, went to the local school. That was just the half block. So that was the environment I grew up in. Sports was huge to me as a kid, you know. And actually, I wanted to play sports more so than I wanted to be a comedian or that type of thing at a young age. I should say that.

My dad played college football for a little bit, a little semi-pro back in those days. So you failed. And they had that type of thing. These are, this is an interview about all my fails, yours. I'm so happy I was in that world though I still think sports is the best way to learn everything you need to learn about life you know well it sounds though that that laughter was the connective tissue though right in all of these places you're going to fit more if you're providing laughter

I suppose yeah but I was just interested in many different things and so they each gave me something different you know but I never thought of laughter as a tool or something back then it was just you know it was just things are funny so you just so where does that come from though have you explored that at all like what was happening in your in your family that was rewarding that right because uh I know these are formative years you're talking about if you know a teenager just wants to sort of fit you're feeling like you don't fit much of anywhere right and and so you now you've got to choose what am I good at I've got to make decisions about what my future looks like or what do I like and at some point here you're

gravitating toward the arts how does that happen yeah that that was a conscious decision once I got into college in high school I wasn't sure about anything my my life kind of um it felt like it was falling apart a bit in high school the life around me my parents were divorced at that point our home life was kind of falling apart my mom's having a tough time looking back she was going through kind of a nervous breakdown. My sisters were having a tough time, you know, hanging out with some bad elements, doing drugs, things like that, you know. And I was going through a tough time looking back emotionally. I had always been an excellent student and kind of let my grades go home by the time I was a junior, probably a sophomore junior year. And I was conscious

of it too, kind of ashamed of it. But I remember I kind of started hiding out in my activities more so than anything else and you know it's funny that I knew that I could accomplish things but I also felt like I was failing because you bring up failing right now it's just funny there was a part of me that wasn't accomplishing the academic career that I felt I should have had and I was too at the time I was just too emotionally buried just buried emotionally you know there's just just too much going on for me to take. I didn't have those words for it back then, but definitely that's what was going on. And academics just didn't continue to be the thing, you know, and I got a scholarship to high

school. I was always a star student in that, but I just couldn't keep it up. But I escaped into sports, into theater, magic was always there, you know, and kind of into the things that kind of brought me more satisfaction on that level. Then in college, I had to really start thinking about my life. You know, what am I going to do? And that's when I put cold water in any sports ideas, too. I was very lucky that I grew up in such a competitive sports environment.

I knew what it took to be like an athlete at a certain level. And I knew I wasn't that either physically or you just, you know, you know how the tools. I was pretty good, though, and played in different sports and was even MVP in some things, but it's just different at an elite level, you know. Very lucky that I had, was able to see that, so I didn't have delusions about that, you know, so I didn't waste my

time in that. So I decided, probably my first or second year in college, that I wanted to pursue the arts, you know, first as an actor, you know, and a stand of comedian. A Thespian first, right? Like a serious actor first. Absolutely, yeah. All right, guys, the holidays are here.

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And we can share this, Mike, if you want to come here. I just walked by, I heard you talk about Miller Light. I'm like, I need it on this. It's the weekend and it's time for the boys to have a Miller light. Exactly right. Chris is going to have a middle light in about 20 minutes. Five o'clock somewhere. Five o'clock somewhere, baby.

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Is the divorce the primary thing that's causing that? No, not necessarily the divorce. It's more the lifestyle, you know. It's just, everything was just chaotic, it seemed like. There was no order to it, you know. And my brother and I, I know growing up, my brother Mark, who I lost a few years ago, we used to make each other laugh. That was part of our tool of doing it.

And I've talked about this before. One of the games we played when we were younger, when my parents were still together and we would play, make me laugh to go to sleep. that kind of stuff, you know. And so my brother and I always used comedy together. It kind of united us in terms of, you know, just dealing with things. But there was a certain moment where I had to bet on something, you know. And, you know, I just went with the passion of it. I actually wrote an article on LinkedIn a few years ago about my decision in college when I decided to do

that. I was selling bookstore to door. And I went to so many people's homes, then, where so many people's homes where they just kind of, you saw where it just didn't work out for them, right? And I met so many people where I saw in their eyes that, yeah, the life just didn't work out. And it really affected me on like a cellular level. It was a real turning point. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to devote my life to doing the thing that's going to bring me some happiness and some joy, you know, I'm not going to do this or that, whatever. And that's when I decided to devote myself to really being out there. What an amazing wisdom to a cruise selling

of all things, book, books door to door, which seems like a truly terrible job. But what you're doing is walking into unhappy living rooms where Hope went to die. Absolutely. And we started the summer. What it is, is college students, we gathered in a place in Tennessee, Knoxville, Tennessee, And they do this whole week where they give you these inspirational sayings and all this stuff. And there was something about being isolated at that. And I was in the down arrow of my life, too, of feeling a bit despair of not knowing if things are going to work out or whatever. And it really bolstered me, you know. It really inspired me on a lot of different levels, you know.

But also made you choose what you don't want, right? You learned what you wanted from making sure that's not what I want. I don't want my living room to be someplace where I didn't chase the things that I wanted, and my life didn't work out. And I set up some working principles for my life at that point, too. One of them was success is in something that I went after. When I decided to do what I really wanted to do, that is the definition of success. So I started my career as a success, and the career was just the journey and the example of it. Huge, huge thing.

because emotionally I wasn't tied to a destination. I was tied to a journey. So all the ups and downs are examples of my particular success. The success was the decision, you know. That's an amazing thing to know that early, right? So lucky that I was able. Now, I read a lot of inspirational books during that time, you know, and really did a lot of research.

I call it research now, but at the time, just trying to find this or whatever. And, you know, just from absorbing, I think, a lot of that in what success has meant to different people or that type of thing, you know, part of it may have been a lifeboat for myself, too, emotionally. Who knows? Well, I imagine magic was something like that. Magic is almost a literal escape from I'm going to get away from my number. Yeah, and it's funny because magic, it was never a way for me to do something. It was just always a constant companion, you know.

But I never viewed it as something I would do for a living or that type of thing. You know, it was just something that I always, that I just loved and it was just there all the time. So it wasn't. But it's funny that comedy was, you know, that seemed like a way to do something. But acting at the same time, too. I was looking at both of those things and trying to figure out how to do it. I want to talk about some of that and the career stuff. But before we get there, like when you say chaos, chaos of living, how long are we talking?

about there? What's the age period that you're talking about when you're remembering chaos and what are the relevant details that sort of shaped you on what you wanted and what you didn't want from life? You just gave me a pretty amazing one. Usually things aren't quite that clear. Yeah. I would say from early 70s, I mean, arguably some of it happened before them but definitely early 70s until let's say my high school graduation 79 let's take those years nine year period my parents are split at that point you know we really didn't have a lot of money and um I remember the not having money was a big thing too and just I remember one Christmas my brother and I remember this vividly where we had a tuna helper for Christmas dinner like that's that's

what we had basically. We always made fun of it because that's the tools we had. But I'm like, man, this is ridiculous, you know. And now I know that there's like hoarder jeans in my family, you know, on both sides. But our house was always a mess, you know, no rhyme or reason for that, you know. My mom would spend a lot of time just working and stuff like that, but she was going through her own thing and was emotionally just, you know, going through a tough time. And as a kid, it's just tough to see that all the time, you know. And like I said, my sisters were really having a tough emotional time. It hit them the hardest emotionally. So that's why they were choosing bad friends and these things. And here I am, you know, a model student kind of kid trying to go

through life. And all this stuff is happening around me. I was ashamed to have people from my house because it was a mess and it was just everything just felt broken so it was tough just dealing with all that during that time and and the clarifying moment for me and my brother was um we were in the house once and there was actually a hole in the roof like the saying the roof had actually caved in was literal and we both looking at that just you got to be fucking kidding me we're just looking at that thinking that and i said you know this is what i said to myself i am not going to live like this, this is not going to be my life, a life of this quiet desperation of having a role just implode in feeling powerless against it, you know. And college becomes an escape,

it becomes... Yeah, at first, I didn't have direction at first, you know, I went to junior college for a couple of years and trying to find things out. Ironically, at that time, my dad had decided he was a probation officer during that period, and he decided he wanted to go back to school and become a doctor. And we were going, he had to take some pre-med courses first, and he was going to the same junior college as me, you know, and he was making the dean's list all the time, and we had the same name, you know, and I'd be walking on in and made that dean's list again. I was, you know, of course, I had already thrown away my academic career at that time, so I was just escaping in the theater department during those years and that kind of stuff

working at a gas station part-time, you know, still not knowing it. You had a lot of bad jobs. Those are good jobs, character-building jobs, you know, character-building jobs. But-unpleasant jobs, I guess, is what I should have said, instead of bad. bad jobs. Yeah, not what you would choose for a living, but I advise young people to do jobs like that because they're just, you know, those are good character building jobs, I think, you know. And you get to college and now you feel something in theater class? Well, I was in theater because, you know, that's what I basically had chosen to do, but still not knowing what's going on.

But it wasn't until that summer where I had that clarifying moment that, yes, this is what I'm going do in my life. And it wasn't, and soon after that, that next year, I got my first kind of TV gig. I got a recurring role in the facts of life. I've played a couple of episodes. And I got a part at the Mark Taper Forum in their improvisational theater project, was able to join actors' equities. So things started happening. Once I started setting that up for, yeah, this is what I want to do. And after that summer, I dedicated myself to really doing stand-of-comity. I had a couple starts and stops and stand up where I tried it and then stopped and then tried it again. I got intimidated the first couple of times, but at that point I decided, all right, I'm

going to sit down and just write jokes, you know, and just really try to do this. Well, I want to talk to you about your first two shows because, or your first two efforts at doing this. But before I do this, clarifying moment, what is the clarifying moment? Like when you're saying there is a moment of divinity where you're like, nope, I'm pretty clear on this is the path I'm going to choose or did you was it was it the the door to door to door thing yeah that's when I had the clarifying moment that I have to choose this you know um do you remember the visuals on this the sights the smells all of it like remember all of it absolutely there were a couple of things that were interesting that happened um there was one

time when we were still in Knoxville and they were given us all the information and everything and some of it was Christian-based, too, and that type of thing. And at one point in my life, I thought about becoming a priest or a brother or that type of thing. I was very much into the Catholic Church, and I was an altar boy and served in that type of thing. It was very faithful in the church. And I remember kind of having a vision at the time I was just sitting there. And I saw myself holding a book, and there was light coming out of the book, and I was in front of a family, you know. and it just moved me to tears, you know, I don't know why the feeling was just overwhelming, you know.

I don't know what it meant. It was, it was so powerful that image. I still remember today. I still remember that night waking up and just crying, you know. And I, to me, what I took it as, I have to start doing this, you know, like this is, this is where I'm supposed to be, I'm supposed to be in front of people doing something, Whether it's, I think internally, I've kind of internalized it, I think, over my whole life as a life of service for people, you know. So even in showbiz, and the advice I give to young people, even today is they obviously, look at, if you're going to go in a showbiz, it's really tough, look at it as something you could put something into rather than something you can get something out of, you know. Like, what can you add to it? How can you leave it better than it was than you were before? As opposed to what can it give me?

How can I be served in it? That is a losing proposition. You say it's a losing proposition, but I believe it's the lights for most people are what can I get from it, not what can I give to it. That's exactly right. But you can never be done with what can I give, you know, but you can be done very quickly with what can I get, you know. Well, that's a life principle you just espoused right there. Like if you live your life in service of others, it's going to be less empty than if you're living in service of yourself. And it frees you up.

It frees you up in a way where you're not in an, in a. improper relationship, let's say with it. You're in a proper relationship with it because many people in an improper relationship with it, they define themselves as that, you know, like in golf, you know, golf is something that I love because it's such an obsessive thing, you know, I love talking about. But it's funny how golfers equate themselves with their score, you know, like they're in 82 that day, but they take it personally that they're that. It's like, you're not your score, you know.

But that's how they take it emotionally, that that. That's who they are. Well, I mean, show business is a poison there. Showbiz is that. So you're the failed audition. That's who you are. That's how you feel that day. And it's wrong, you know.

But many people in showbiz take the results of showbiz or the trappings of it as who they are, as their identity. And you've got to separate those things, you know. That's an improper relationship is what I say. He has to get into a proper relationship with it's an endeavor, it's work, it's this, it's that, whatever it is. But it's not who you are. It's what you do, you know, and understanding those differences, you know, otherwise, good luck.

Yeah. Well, where did you figure out, where along the path do you figure out I like helping people more than necessarily? Well, it wasn't a conscious thing, but that kind of came through, I think, just, you know, I'll ascribe that to the Catholic values that I had, that it's more life of service, you know, that type of thing. I've always said the difference between Catholic and Protestant in my mind. It's like, and sorry Protestants bringing this up, because I've been to these churches, too. I went through a period of doing that stuff where I always felt like people, if you're Protestant, you go to the church to get something from God, you know. Like, and people talk about this very famous, like sometimes God's their butler.

Oh, yeah, I pray to God. I got my car. You know, I got this and everything. You know, or God's their ballet or whatever. what are the blessings God's going to give me and all these things, but it's always God is doing something. He's your personal valet, or he's your wish list, you know, he's your wedding plan, whatever he is, he's providing something for you. Whereas Catholicism is kind of the opposite, is what are you doing for God? You know, you have to do these things. You have to perform these

services. You know, you even have prayers you have to do that are certain, in a certain order. You have sacraments that are this. And so it's more of a, no, no, sorry. you have to you have to do the one the thing for him not the other way around so was that relationship you know of a of a life of service um that i've always kind of held in my bones i think from early on is there anything on the resume that is most gratifying to you there like from that it's on the resume but i've dedicated a lot of my career to helping younger uh writers come up and performers and that type of thing still doing it now but i don't public signs a lot of that stuff you know it's more quiet but that's what gives me a lot of joy and satisfaction and that type of thing

you i've read you say that i'm i'm the king of overseeing projects that have not yet been seen by anybody well yeah some of them don't and some of it is just you know just being there for somebody to help them you know do whatever you know but i've served on boards i've been on the writers go board and that type of thing. I saw it as, okay, I've had some success. I need to make sure I'm giving back. So I've always kind of had that in my mind, whether it's a, I don't know, whether you're kind of doomed by that or whatever. But I've always approached it that way, as opposed to having any ambition to be on a board or to be a president of the guild. Like, I don't have that kind of ambition. It's always more tied to service. Where have you had along the path

the most fun in the doing when I put in living color in front of you or the Bernie Mac show or Jamie Fox or any other. I've been really fortunate, you know, my career. I've had so many fun shows that I've worked on. The writer's room is the funest. When you asked me earlier, the thing that I probably get the most satisfaction, it is producing. But the funest place to be on any show is in a comedy writer's room.

And Living Color was a ridiculously fun writer's room to be in. I have not been on another one that's been quite like that. And for all the factors. How early was that in your life? So you're, that was my first gig. Oh, my God. You've got to be shitting me.

That spoils it for everything. Absolutely. I start at the top, you know, with the hottest show in television. We're getting Emmy nominations, all that stuff. It's culture changing. All of that stuff, teaching me all those lessons. It's black lead content, you know, which was unheard of in those days, you know. If there were black shows in television, they're usually produced by white people, you know,

not black producing their own thing you know this is when Spike started on his movies that influenced me a lot too so much about that influenced me but there were writers from was so much fun there was things that we said in that room that we'd all go to prison right now because we all be canceled because you

just can't say all that stuff you know which is hilarious when you think about it yeah in fact we used to come up with decoys that were so outrageous that would get the the thing that we want in the script to get through which is hilarious you can't say that I'd say, all right, well, at least give us this.

Oh, so you'd throw, you'd actually throw them things that you knew were going to not get past. Thousand percent. Yeah, absolutely. See, those are, those, that had to be so much fun just to be with those rebels creating that thing and getting the instantaneous feedback that you would in stand-up comedy. Yeah, and stand-up taught me how to make people laugh. It really taught me that, you know, and writing jokes and that. And in Living Color really taught me how to manufacture that in, you know, large quantities all the time and how to produce that for an audience, you know, two different places, huge lessons, you know. I learned so many lessons on how to do television from being on Living in Color because we all feared for our jobs all the time, you know.

And we had to produce so much material all the time, you know. but it was a real fun group of people too who just wickedly funny and you know it was it was great so that was probably the all time but I've been lucky I've been you know the PJs we had a great writing staff you know got to work with Eddie Murphy on that you know which was amazing you know really funny stuff all the stuff I did at the daily show you know for years being able to collaborate with John Stewart one-on-one that type of stuff Nothing ever like that. The office, you know, no one really knew Steve Carell a little bit from the daily show, but not really.

And being, you know, being able to figure that show out from the beginning with everybody was huge. I mean, I've been so lucky of the different things I've been on, you know. I remember seeing on, and I think I've told this story before, but comedians and cars getting coffee, Gary Shandling and Seinfeld talking and both of them just sort of having the unique experience of understanding, how hard it is to make something look that easy, how hard it is, and the suffering involved in it. Is there anything in here that you would say was so pressurized that people might have on the outside thought it was fun? And you're like, it's not as fun as you thought it was.

Well, I'm talking positively about a living color. But my joke during that time, and even for years after, where I said, people said, well, how was it working in there? I said, it was the worst of times. It was the worst of times. it truly was the worst of times to quote dickens and it was it was terrible in terms of i mean it took everything out of you you thought you're going to get fired every day there was a lot of backbiting i mean every emotions that could be on there every type of character that could exist on that

you know was there it was the hardest job ever and writing in general like i don't enjoy writing but I'm compelled to do it, you know. Same. Like, I feel it's fulfilling, but only after having done it. I have not yet gotten to the free-flowing. I'm doing it all-so. Oh, come on, don't tell me that. I'm never going to get to free-flowing.

I'm doing so much work to trying to get to free-flowing. That's it. You're telling me I'm doomed? I'm telling you're a massacist. That's what I'm telling you. Like, you're in an improper relationship right now. But the problem, then, is that you're good at this. that's the thing you know and being good at something doesn't mean that you have to like it you

know it just means that you're good at it and that's it that's another distinction you know by the way but wait a minute you like having written i like i love having written as dorothy parker says you know hate writing love having written um but the process of writing is torture and people say larry why do you're right i say because i have a deadline otherwise why why would i do that why would i put but you just said compelled though you just said compelled that doesn't have much of anything to do with you know i want to be in showbiz you know that writing was something i could do to do that um i have my when i think about my creativity it's rooted in an expression not acceptance you know so many performance especially actors i shouldn't say that i should say

there are many performers or the writers actors or whatever the fulfillment that they give is a reaction you know stand-up comics especially it's the laugh that makes it for me it's different it's the crafting of the joke you know and then I'm appreciating what I just did is is what gives me the thing so it's more the expression that drives me you've got a real unique relationship with this when you say that I already feel like a success for just having tried it right as a career choice if that's your starting point you've placed your expectations in in such a low place that you're able to exceed. Well, it's not expectations.

Well, it doesn't have expectations if you're arriving. That's not correct. You're just trying. No, that's not correct. It's relationship is what we're talking about. What relationship do you have to it? You know, are you a prisoner to outcomes emotionally? Or do you have that in its proper perspective and understand that they're going to be highs

and there's going to be lows? But if you're in it for the long term, you understand that you're in the proper relationship with it, you know, that it's not going to be. you know this thing the whole time you know just being I'm talking about relationship now expectations are separate you know where do you where do you see yourself in five years what do you want to do and you work towards those things and you would be disappointed if you didn't have that so of course of course I had ambition and goals and all that kind of stuff but it's different from the relationship than I had to the business for instance if the business goes away for me what how does

that affect me is that going to crush my life if I'm in an improper relationship, it will. But if I'm not, then it won't. Because I know I have tools and I have value and, you know, I have family that loves me. This is the wisdom accrued over a lifetime, though, right? You weren't always. No, I was in a proper relationship with it. From the beginning.

No, this is what I'm telling you. This is the moment that I had, you know, because I could not allow that. No, I'm not saying that I, that you always feel good about this or that. But I had to check myself along the way. constantly, and this is a constant checking in, that I'm in that proper relationship with it, that it's not doing the wrong thing to me, because sometimes it does. I'll get an example. When I have my own show in Comedy Central, the nightly show, this is everybody's dream,

right? One of my dreams, too, to have my own show. So the promotion for it was so overwhelming, because my face was on all these posters everywhere. It was in Times Square. It was here and here. And I was like, man, this is a lot of attention put on an individual. I had like a conscious feeling of that.

I'm like, I understand why people can get out of control. When they get in a bubble like this, everybody's skis in their ass. You know, you're not in any authentic relationships all of a sudden because people either may want something or they feel afraid to say something. It's a horrible position to be in, you know. And if you... Having all your dreams come true. No, but listen to what I'm saying. Not that having all your dreams come true is not being in an authentic relationship.

That's what I'm talking about. So the dreams come, there's nothing wrong with having that happen, but the fight to stay in an authentic relationship with the world and the people in that world is the fight, you know. And if you don't, you start, your life becomes inauthentic and you are going down a bad road. Yeah, but not everyone has the clarity or wisdom to see that. I saw one of the many people that I respect who saw it, but there aren't that many actually. Tanahasi Coates saw what happened as soon as fame arrived and he's like, I got to go running back to just write books because this ain't healthy here. And at first it doesn't make sense. Look, Chappelle did that when he left.

You know, a lot of the attention wasn't the right type of attention. I understand where he's coming from from that. But most people just look at the money part of it or that because they think that's the thing, but not necessarily. For some people it can be. And some people naturally are in a good relationship. They never have to think about it. you know they naturally have a good support system around them they naturally choose family relationships properly and all that stuff and they don't let that stuff bother them they don't have

to think about it I had to think about it well you're also saying you're when I say all your dreams come true because I would imagine the nightly show is the mountaintop of all of your life's learning and whatever it is you were feeling on seeing your face on Times Square would represent okay I arrived at the top of the mountain so far of what my ambition has been i've got that wrong no the thing is i was very lucky because it happened to me when i was 52 and i said uh you know they said larry will fame change i'm like no fame had it shot you know when i was in my 20s it had its shot to ruin me you know but i'm 52 excuse my language i said fame can go fuck itself at this point you know i'm way too old to corrupt now i've had the ups and downs of showbiz

it's coming at the proper time in my life where I have the tools to handle it now you know by the way no matter what my observations are now if I had had that show at 22 completely different who knows what can happen like I feel sorry for people I don't know how Eddie Murphy's done it for so long his life changed at 19 forever and ever and ever he's never as an adult really been in a what we call a normal relationship with the world can you imagine that and just not saying this isn't a negative about it. But when I looked at him, I realized that the only, from what I could see, the only real authentic relationship he had, the only people in his life who could probably tell him know authentically, we're his kids. You know, because everybody else is affected by all that

fame, you know. Maybe that's why he's got so many. That's why he has 11 kids. Exactly. It makes sense to me. I can keep a little mass producing authentic relationships. But doesn't it make sense? Yeah. It really does. It is his happy place. whenever he talks about them or he's in it he's the happiest and I get it I get it and I doubt I doubt seriously at 19 he thought of having 11 kids I doubt seriously but the thing I think that has been the vacuum is those relationships and you see you've seen from every angle what a contaminant show business and and you probably have a healthy fear and respect for just how poisoned all relationships can get from every single angle with success. Yeah, success and bubbles. So I talk about politics a lot too. And to me, a lot of our fractured discourse in politics is because of bubbles, you know, and the

bubbles that people get in. It doesn't matter to the side. And people hate this thing. They call this both sidesism. Sorry, that's true. You know, it doesn't, the thing, the content itself is not the issue. It's the bubble that's the issue, you know. And people don't, when people are in bubbles, they,

most of the time they don't even realize that it just feels normal to them. And anything outside of the bubble seems so foreign to them. And it's many times it's just rejected out of hand, you know. But the most dangerous bubble to you as a person is the no accountability bubble. You know, if you have, if there's no accountability in your life, that's a very dangerous bubble. The tools you need as a person to get through that, I don't have those tools down, by the way. If my life has no accountability all the time, it would be terrible for me. So I'm lucky that that show happened for me later because I might not have had, I didn't have those tools at 22 than I had years later, you know.

I was at the beginning of some of that thinking, but it wasn't in my life, you know. When you talk about the crazy pressure involved within Living Color, was it in all of the other spots? The daily show, the doing of a daily show must be really hard. Well, the daily show, I only would come and do my bit, so I wasn't involved in that time of time. I was still here in L.A., you know, working on shows and stuff. But, you know, running the Bury Mac show is very difficult, you know, when you're having to, you know, I created this show and you're running it and all that. I famously was fired from the show after winning an Emmy, P-Boddy,

every award you could win, you know, because that was at odds with the network and everything. We're kind of fighting over what the show was. And that was a huge battle that took a huge toll emotionally because I, you know, during that time, I felt myself getting into a bubble. There's nothing I can do about it, you know, and that kind of crashed my bubble at that time. I'm looking back at it now, knowing that it's time I didn't know, you know. Take me through what was happening there, though. That seems really pressurized.

You've got a hit show. And you've got all of the pressures. I'm imagining this. I don't know any of the details of white people telling black people how to make their show when you've already got it successful. And you've got a character that is going to be insistent upon being himself. He's not going to be a clown for others. Right.

It was very tough emotionally. And you felt like you were completely on an island alone in a lot of that, you know. But I was very lucky there were people in showbiz who supported me from the outside and gave me a lot of emotional support, which was nice. Some very famous show creators and runners. You know, I remember running a Stephen Botchko who I had never met, but I was a huge fan of. of and he came up and hugged me because this was after I was fired, which is a very public thing and said, there are those assholes. Don't worry about them. And I'm like, oh, man, that made me feel so good, you know, to get, you know, recognition from people, you know, my peers

and people I respected and that type of thing. But it's very difficult going through that type of thing. And my marriage was tough at the time, too, and, you know, dealing with all those things emotionally. And I definitely was getting in a bubble then too, Dan, because I was getting successful making money and you start thinking you know I don't know what the right word is for it because it's it's just there's just a bubble of isolation where you know it can be harmful to you I'll just say you know so ironically it was one of the best things that could happen to me I think as a person when that happened to be fired I think so you know when I look back at it you know um there is in living color was one of those those bubbles in a dirt

different way. One of the things we did on the show, the show itself, working on the show was very toxic. People talk about that Saturday Night Live, because it's very competitive in that type of thing. And I could feel that toxicity, like, working its way in me. But you're in that bubble in the show. You think that's how we're supposed to act, but I could feel it. And, you know, when I left that show, it was almost like a purge, you know, and thank God I wasn't on a long, two years was enough. Two years was like five years on anything else. you know but and it was such kind of a lesson to me even then of how fast that can happen to you and it's not just showbiz there's so many things in your life that can do that for you so you know

when I talk about being in a proper relationship with things not defining yourself or making sure if you're in a bubble to check yourself you know and look outside of that and that type of thing and I do these things for survival sake not to be a flannel philosopher to figure things out. It's so I can basically survive. So you could feel good or not feel bad. Yes, exactly. So why did you get fired, though?

Do you know? Burning Mac Show? Do you know now, like, what really happened there? They never understood the show. So I was always in a fight with them. And they didn't understand what I was doing. They thought I was incompetent, you know, even though the show was winning all these awards. And the things that I did was on purpose.

I actually deconstructed the sitcom in order to write that. Ken Koppas who directed the pilot We watched French new wave films together To kind of figure out the rhythms They thought you were incompetent? Yes, trust me on this In fact, I think one of them admitted that later And treated me like that too

I remember a famous meeting Where a lot of the storytelling that I did Was intentionally The rhythms were mixed up a little Because I didn't want I wanted to surprise people in different ways because I'll just go over this real quick. This is kind of a writer-nerdy thing, okay, just so you know ahead of time.

So when I created the show, I based it on some of the reality stuff that I was watching. I wanted to do a different rhythm that was on TV, which when you think about the year in 1999, year 2000, when I'm doing this, it's mostly multi-camera sitcoms that are your comedies and television friends probably being the biggest one at the time, right? There were no single camera shows at the time. There were nothing what you see now of these types of shows. So that didn't exist in television, right? So I wanted to do a show that had a different rhythm than what we were watching. And so there was a show called 1900 House.

It was a documentary, or a pseudo-documentary, about this family that had to live like it was 1900. They were in England. And it was fascinating to me. You know, and there were cameras kind of just put in the house kind of observing them, right? And, you know, and their behavior changed, the relationship. I'm just laughing at the creative inspirations for the first. Bernie Mac show. Like, it's, like, no wonder they, no wonder they were confused by the language you were using.

That's true. So, you know, I just saw behavior change. And I love behaviors. One of my favorite things to observe, you know, relationships, get redefined and how it changed people. And they have this confessional camera at the end of the week. You could go and talk about your sins, you know, and said, I had a Snickers ball today. I wasn't supposed to have it, but I couldn't help myself. You know, I'm dying.

And, you know, like, this is fantastic. This should be like, I have. should use this as a storytelling technique. Maybe I should put some cameras in a in a house and just see like we're observing a family rather than the action being pushed towards us. And as a theater major, I studied playwriting and all that stuff. You know, so a lot of different forms of writing and that. I always try to, I like to play around form and that type of thing. So I was approaching the idea from a technical standpoint at first. Then I saw Kings of Comedy. I went to this special screen and it hadn't been

released it. And I saw Bernie talking about his kids and I'll hit a, I think you should be able to hit a kid in the stomach and the throat you know and I was like oh my god and I like I said oh man if I put Bernie in a house taking care of his sister's kids we're emotionally drawn in I said that's a because I knew I needed a compelling reason to watch it it just couldn't be a family what's the compelling reason I'm like that's a good emotional journey to take the audience on but we're just observing him doing this so that's how I started with the show I pitched it with Bernie and he loved it and pitched it and got it made but then I have to write the damn thing you didn't tell him anything about this French stuff. This 1900 French stuff. You kept that out. No, no, no, not at all. Not at all. But he got the gist of it. But just because I came up with it didn't mean I knew how to write it. There were no examples of anything like that I could draw from. So all the things I learned about a sitcom, I had to kind of throw out. And so I swear to you, man, I spent, I had a deal at Disney at the time. It was one of those just writer deals. They just keep you there hoping you don't come up something. It's like a to your deal. My deal was over, but I kind of stayed in my office and I didn't leave.

And I would... You were Milton from office space? Yes, I was. Yes. Exactly. And so I would just drive in the land, hey, you know, and then I'd be in this office and just kind of hiding. I swear to you, there was, the way that I pitched the show, I knew it had different rhythms and everything, but I didn't know how I was going to write it, but I knew it had to be different. I wrote the same three pages. I couldn't get past page three for four weeks. and sometimes I go to the commissary and I'd be I'd feel guilty I'm like why did I pitch this thing it's unwriteable I can't write this thing you know what am I going to do you know and I was almost ready to almost get and I was ignoring calls from now oh you know when are we going to get an outline

that can't give them an outline I don't know how to write this thing yet you know and so just really just hiding out in this office I wasn't even supposed to be in and then about four a little after four weeks of doing this can't get past page three i looked up at my laptop and i was on page four and something broke through i got it all of a sudden and then it just poured out of me you know so it is possible there is possible for it to just be free flowing you've you said i'd be doomed for the rest of my life i'd never got it's possible still a prisoner of the thing but i got it poured out of me 36 hours, the whole thing. I suddenly got it.

And that script basically wound me the Emmy later on, that thing. But I got it. What I got was there was a certain aspect of it that I had to free myself up. And this is what I said in a nutshell. And the basic aspect of it was this can't be a plot-driven story, where A happens and then because of that B happens. And then at the commercial, what's going to happen because of A and B? you know I was watching the real world because it was you know at the time one of these shows that I was kind of drawing from and at the commercial there wasn't a plot type of thing it just went to commercial you know and then we come back and it just started up but there was no manipulation at the commercial and I kept playing back and I'm like how come I want to come back? I'm like what's going on here? There's no plot manipulation. Why do I want to come back? Because I want to

to ape the feeling of that. And it just dawned to me. And I thought, you know what? I just want to know more of their journey. I just want to see more of it. And that was, that broke my head. Well, you had Bernie Mac. Yes.

And I thought, it's enough to just want to see more of the character's journey. There doesn't have to be a plot manipulation. And so that broke my head. These characters, though, when you're talking about the Wayans brothers and Jim Carrey, when you're talking about Bernie Mac, when you're talking about Jamie Fox, these are all cheat codes. You're talking about these. the most talented people that they've been in the business.

Right, right, right. I agree. And so, yes, put them on television and figure it out. Yeah. So me, yeah. So to that point, I want to put Bernie in a situation we haven't seen before, but the trappings of it are a bit invisible to the audience. I know what it is, you know.

So what I did was now the show was about Bernie's emotional journey. So the question isn't, like in a plot-driven episode, of the pilot of the Bernie Mac show, the central question is Bernie going to lose the kids that he just got? That might be the question. And the plot might be

he does something and then this happens maybe one of the kids runs away or and then they come by and he's going to lose the kids and that's in jeopardy and we're always thinking of that.

No. In an emotional journey episode which is I wrote, Bernie understands what it means to be in the position that he's in. He's different emotionally at the end of it.

so there's virtually no plot we're just following him during the day and this all ends up with them thinking you incompetent correct that's correct because they didn't know how to give notes to that you know so I became the incompetent one so I remember there was this meeting where the head of Fox at the time was trying to lecture to me

in front of everybody trying to embarrass me he said well the way you write things is you bring something up in the first act and you come back to it in the third act and he's like not in his head everybody's out in their head and I said okay so what you're saying saying is the way that I write is surprising. And he said, yes. I said, and I think that's a good thing. And you're fired. I said, it's, you're saying what I do is unpredictable, right? He said,

yes, I said, I think that's a good thing. So that's kind of the fights that we have. And we think you're incompetent and we think you're fired. But I was writing emotional unpredictableness to make up a word, which was different than plot unpredictableness. Like, not what's going to happen, but where are we you know where is this character so now too much heart more shows do that now now it's a given look at the bear there's no plot in the bear you know those are emotional journey shows you know you know but you couldn't do that it stinks though to hear you talk about something that was so different right so good and to say the experience stunk it was it was it was terrible because i was on an island you know but you always have been it sounds like i always have been on an island

But I don't care, you know, for most of it. I really don't. Because it's more, like I said, figuring the thing out is what gave me the joy. And Bernie was fantastic in it. He was great, you know. And I would get calls every week from writers saying, oh, my God, that episode was fantastic. Because nobody on TV was doing this type of stuff, you know, the type of attention that we got and everything, too. So it was frustrating that they didn't understand it, but what are you going to do?

How much of your identity got tied up in that way? So you didn't have the healthy relationship at the time with show business? I mean, you're creating a wildly successful thing that's getting applause and it's running into the thing that Chappelle would run into when he would go to South Africa because he didn't want to do it anymore. No, it was terrible because I was tied in. Yeah, you're right. My identity was tied into it at that time. And it was devastating to get fired. You know, I was devastated by it, you know, and I had to learn the lessons that I had taught myself all then.

get back to that. You know, so that's why I say, ironically, it might have been the best thing to happen. What's crazy to hear you say that because I'm guessing you spent months, if not years, rummaging around in how unjust that must have felt. No, not for long. I let that go right away. In fact, in the press, I was very, I took the high road. I said, well, we had creative differences.

I was creative and they were different, you know. That's not the high road. How is that the high road? It's the sneaky high road. It's the sneaky high road. I was creative and they were different. That is not the high road. That's very clever, though.

No, it's clever. It is. I'm not disputing that it's clever. I'm disputing that it's the high road. I pretty much let it go, but I did an interview two years ago. Was it for Vox where I got to really lay it out clean? And so the last few demons of it were finally. Well, I would imagine that it would be scarring in a way that would be imprinting because you arrived at wild success over all the obstacles.

and you were the creator of that show. Like, you weren't just someone in the background. You were a founder. That's exactly right. Yeah, it was devastating. It did take a while. And after that, I decided to go back to performing because the reason why I became a writer and produced in the first place

was to hopefully create my own show that I could do because I felt Hollywood didn't get me at that time. So that was kind of my journey, and it took me, that was another thing that I had to remember. So remember why you're doing this layer. it's so you could create a space for yourself that didn't exist, you know, and so I got back to that. A couple years later, I was on the Daily Show, you know, doing that stuff, and so I got back to my roots of what I really wanted to do, you know, so that's what I mean.

Had I not gotten fired, I never would have been on the Daily Show. I never would have done White House Correspondent for President Obama. You know, I never would have, I probably wouldn't be talking to you now, you know, I wouldn't have this opportunity to reach people in a different way because I just would have been a showrunner during that time. I don't think I would have done that, had that not broken apart in the way that it did. And it saved me as a person because that's another bubble that's very dangerous, you know, that, you know, at least it is for me, you know, who would have been, you know, who was getting caught up in that type of thing. But it is for a lot of people, you know. Have you felt much that felt like that kind of hurt?

No. Where does the White House Correspondence dinner rank in terms of career achievements that you could. possibly imagine it's pretty high manifested it first of all it was something that as soon as the bomb became president i said that's what i want to do and i ended up hosting the congressional correspondence center a couple years later i thought okay well maybe that's the closest i get he wasn't there and i made jokes about that and i was fine with it and then when i got that i was like this is crazy i put that out there you know and it actually happened it's it meant so much to me as a person that he was president

during that time to do that was huge and really meant to life it was beyond politics and all that stuff it was just a personal cultural thing

yeah what else would you when you say it's pretty close to the top what else would be up there with it like in terms of

just proud of yourself for career achievement that is a place that you just never imagined you would arrive with you know spurred by the fuel of your creativity

Well, I would say the top things, of course the Bernie Magh show, because of what I described to you doing that, that, and probably the nightly show, you know, because that was another very, very scary thing, you know, not knowing what it was, having fever dreams days before we're going on, because I'm not sure what the show is, you know, and all that type of stuff, and finally thinking I figured it out and just putting it all out there every day, you know. So very happy that I did that, I'm able to get it. All of them pressure cookers, though, right? All of them, things that you're afraid of. Like, you are not dancing with a parasol through any of this stuff. All of them are like hard but fulfilling. Very hard. And anxiety-induced.

They're all the hardest things I've ever done. All of them. Yeah. Are there any easy things that you've done that have resulted in? Ironically, the acting stuff is the easiest, you know. and it's been some of the most fun, but it's not been the most fulfilling, ironically. It's not challenging enough.

It's plenty challenging, but it's not this kind of challenging, this suffering, hurting, you know, acting, you're, you know, waiting for 13 hours to go do you. I feel like I'm playing like I'm getting away with something, you know, which is fine and it's great, and I really enjoy it, not to shit on it or anything, but I really enjoy it. But it's just different, you know.

I feel very fortunate in some of it. I've worked with some really great people and that kind of stuff. as a performer, but it's funny that stand-up was hard. You know, in terms of performing, stand-up is the hardest thing to do. And I'm starting to do stand-up again, and once again, it's hard to construct that. And you really only look, the audience tells you what's funny. You don't tell them, you know, so you only learn it on stage. So to go through that again right now is kind of interesting and fun.

I promised this earlier, and sometimes I end up wandering and never get back to it. But your first two shows, your first two stand-up shows. The first one was a wild success. The second one was a terrible failure, correct? Yeah, that's true. So take me through. So the first one, you get the feeling of knowing, I want to do this. This is for me.

And then what happens with the second one? Well, this is very early on. I was like maybe 17, you know, and I go to the comedy store, and I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have it. I was doing impressions, and I think I was doing a memorized routine. you know from some record or something like that i mean it was so raw it's like doing a talent show at a high school was my approach not as a professional comic and so looking back it's shocking that i got laughs on the first time but i think my confidence got me through and everything

audience really like you only do three minutes you know and uh and then they you know brought me over it said oh that was great you know we'd like you to come back and showcase for a mitzi was at the comedy store and I was like yeah great you know and I'm like right and high and the day that I had to go showcase I was sick as a dog just sick as a dog you know and I said but I got to go do this and I just felt differently on stage the the light that happened the last time there was none of that no connection with the audience they could care less what I was talking about it was the complete opposite feelings you know of everything that have as great as it went the first time it was the complete opposite you know I come off stage now nobody wants to be your friend you know everybody wants to be your friend

the first time on an island again oh man it was terrible I have a daily show story about that too that's similar but nobody wants to be your friend you know you know didn't of course I didn't get called over didn't get asked back and I thought I had just failed to go back to your original well you also fled comedy for a while did you not did you not go back hide in the easier Thespianism? Absolutely. But keep in mind, though, you know, walking around the halls at the comedy store back then, people like Richard Pryor, you know, I mean, even David Letterman, people didn't know who he was, you know, because I would sneak in there and watch shows and stuff, you know. It was very intimidating. Who am I to think that I could just do this? So I wasn't

wrong completely, too, you know, of like, no, Larry, you better dial that back a little bit, You know, but I knew nothing about the form or anything. I didn't know. When I eventually went back to it, I really knew more about it. I knew you had to write jokes. You had to write an act. You know, many people do well the first time and you die your second time, but you just got to keep doing it. And then after a while, once you start to have an act, that's the thing that works, not so much just being funny.

So I just didn't know the technical aspects of it. I just didn't understand it. I was just too innocent. Before we get out of here, I did want to talk just politics with you briefly. You must find great despair in how done. everything has gotten, no? Well, dumb, what do you mean when you say dumb? I mean, when you're talking about people are in their bubbles,

and so it's not political discourse anymore. It's not disagreement about, you know, nuance and discerning philosophy. It's a different set of facts that two sides are choosing. It is disappointing. You don't think it's gotten dumb? Well, I may disagree with the word gotten. You know, not the word dumb. Okay.

Okay. Maybe I'm just new to how overt some of this stuff is because it seemed to be hidden better from me. I'm not politically astute. No, I know what you mean. Like when people, well, I just remind people that Caesar was stabbed on the Senate floor, you know, I mean. Politics has been nasty for a long time and that type of thing. It's just, you know what? So much of it, so much at least decorum has just been thrown out.

And that disappoints me a lot, you know, because at least when I was coming up, people could disagree with each other, but there was kind of a decorum of how things were done that people at least respected. And that's just going away. And I just worry about that because to me it's like, well, other things go away to, you know, just respecting of the constitution and all these types of things. slowly chipping away at that? I don't know. And that just worries me a lot. You know, so Black on air, do you want to tell people what that has meant to you, what it is to you? We've got a deck of

cards here, too. So at the very end of this, we're going to put the punctuation on this, where you're going to amaze people and make me feel all wonder and discovery like I haven't since I was a child. See, there you go. What a surprise. But congratulations on black on air. And the fact that you are doing an interview show that is following all of your curiosities. Oh, thank you. Yeah. So back on the air, the podcast that I've been doing at the Ringer since 2017, it's great. You know, it was allowing me to keep kind of engaging with the audience after my show, the nightly show was canceled.

And I've been able to interview so many interesting people over the years. And it's just been great. It's been a lot of fun. The show's coming to an end. The end of December is the last ones that we're doing. But I'm going to be doing something, again, in that space. I still haven't figured it out. There are a couple of things I'm thinking about.

But it's been great. I really enjoyed doing it, and it's just been a good run. You stifled what felt like a bored burp in the middle of what sounded like profound indifference while talking about a passion project of seven years. Like, you really just sort of petered out there. There was no. I didn't feel much inspiration coming from you. It might have just been the stifled burp that disoriented me.

Well, what is it you would like to know? Oh, I just wanted to know what it means to you as a project. I don't know how many projects you've done for seven years. Well, it's always been kind of a pocket thing. It's not really a passion project, I would say, but it's a grateful space. That's the way to put it. You know, I feel grateful to be in that space and being able to engage with a lot of people. But because it's been on the side, I never really put all of my energies into it like I've done other things.

So maybe it probably hasn't been the blooming flower that maybe if that's all I was doing, it possibly could have been. Well, many people are going to be disappointed to hear if they're tuning into this because they want more Larry Wilmore and they want more of his personality as opposed to. somebody who's just curious or being an interviewer who is a very good interviewer they're going to be wildly wounded by the fact that you are, and that the show is coming to an end, that you've just given them news that will be hurtful to that.

But the show is coming to an end, but I, doing a podcast, may not be coming to an end. I just haven't figured that out yet. Okay, let's bring in the cards here so that I can get some wonder discovery here. Yes, this is the amazing thing that we've been able to do with a- Have these even been opened?

With a crack staff. I'll let you open them just to make sure there's no funny business here. Okay, so this is... And we have a camera here. I can make sure the camera... But what funny business could there possibly be on this? People could think something... Oh, he's using his teeth here.

Well, I'm going to spend a good amount of time trying to get these open because I don't have any fingernails. I won't accuse you of funny business if you want to try it. Let's see, if there's a thing here, it looks like. This is where the whole thing is going to come apart, where people are going to see that you're cheating, and obviously the wonder and discovery is just going to be too-bit hack. Oh, can I use your pen?

Yeah, well, I could have done that. We're two, a couple of great magicians here trying to just open a deck of cards. I know, that's the trick. How do you do that? All right, let's try something here. Let's take a look at these cards. You guys can see? What are these?

Hollywood. Look at it. You guys going to see? Let's take off the Aces. How about that? Let's do something with the Aces. I love that we just sent somebody out. I'm assuming they didn't find.

it anywhere in this building, that somebody had to rush with an hour of time to get this done. Well, you know, it's not prepared, too, which is great. I want to make sure we can see here since we've got the video happened. Can you guys see that pretty good? We got the A's Dan. I'm going to need your help in this, actually. I'm just going to need you to put your hand out like that. Now, here's the thing.

This isn't really a trick, these days is there. It's really a couple of questions, you know. The first two are real simple, but the last one is a little tricky, so you have to pay attention. Okay, you got it? I feel like what's going to happen at the end. end of this is that we are going to turn over a card that is the black astronaut we were talking about. Wow. Wouldn't that be amazing? Okay. All right. Let me make sure I get here so I want to get in the right position. Okay. Everybody can see this, right? Okay. First two, real simple. What is the color of this

ace? Black. Wrong. African American. That's okay, Dan. Take your time. That's my, oh, this is my bad. I should have explained. African American is what I should have been. The color of that card is African American. I should have been clearer about it. Okay. All right. Everybody can see this? Okay. All right, Dan, Once again, what is the suit of this ace? And keep in mind, I'm still a little sensitive from your last answer. No, no, don't answer that. It's a horrible joke, a horrible joke. The young guys don't even understand that joke.

That's what's interesting. I think he's old enough to get that joke, though. Okay. I don't want to reveal that I got that joke. No, it's great. I can see your laugh. I can see your laugh that you get that joke. Here's a tricky question, though.

Here's a tricky question. Which ace should be on top? See, that's a tricky question. The ace of the ace of the club should be. That's why it's a tricky question. A. Should be on top. Based on what you just did with my hand, Ace of Clubs. It should be the Ace of Clubs. You didn't see me switch it. I did not. See, I switched it for the other ace. See, that's the ace of hearts. See, and that's the ace of diamonds. It can't be these two there. It's neither one of the African American cards. Come on, man. Larry, thank you for being on with us. Are you going to give me another one? That's it. That's enough, right? Okay. going to sprint around but they didn't yeah there you go they haven't been shuffled at all that is a clean deck you're going to take it with you and you're going to have the regret that you didn't

bring your own card right this was the day that somebody asked you you've been doing it daily for how long since you were seven i know what was i thinking yeah uh larry big fan of you and all of your work thank you for spending this time with us i appreciate you having me out it's been an honor thank you so much All right, guys, the holidays are here. We got Noce Buena down here in Miami. Super important, by the way. Which means a lot of my favorite memories start the same way.

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