The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Marcellus Wiley

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

This is a rare glimpse into the soul of a man who's not afraid to tackle any situation - a front-row seat to the unfiltered wisdom of Marcellus Wiley. Dan and Marcellus toss aside the small talk and dive straight into the sacrifices necessary for chasing dreams, battling doubts, complacency, and the pivotal moments that drive them forward. Marcellus also lays bare his regrets on his fatherhood, unpacking the heavy baggage of shame around his insecurities, and reflects on how he and Max Kellerman navigated the uncharted waters of on-air vulnerability and developed a brotherhood that stands the test of time. Marcellus then confronts a subject he actively avoids - the unforgiving weight of grief and the human struggle to reconcile professional demands with the personal challenges of mourning those we love the most. Watch Marcellus Wiley’s “Never Shut Up” weekdays on Brinx.TV and listen to “More To It with Marcellus Wiley” wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to South Beach Sessions and I will tell Marcellus Wiley this off the top. I'm sure he's felt it off of me, but I will tell him for the first time that I admire you so much, meaningfully, because your story is amazing and only part of it. I mean, it starts with me discovering that you made it from Compton to Columbia, but then it got interesting to me. That was plenty interesting because you lived a tough football life and you've fought your way in business in the broadcasting sphere. So I will tell the audience, Marcellus Wiley, someone I've admired for a long time

because the pain that you played with and the strength that you had that you showed on and off the field has been something that's been remarkable to me. So thank you for coming in and joining us here in your city because this place feels very you, right? You love everything about this place. Yes, I'm L.A. to the core, man, and I'll be remiss to find and give you your flowers. I don't know your age, but I've always looked up

to you, always respected you, the way that you could always peel back the layers, the way that you, the way that you could always peel back the layers, the way that you approached the craft, the way that you did it, your success. And it's funny, even through all my journey since we met each other, I will always reach out with the random text, and it was always at some critical points where I just needed some affirmation, some assurance from the triple OG yourself. So I just want to say that whatever you see in me,

it's always this vote-tron effect of pulling from people that I look up to and people that inspire me. Thank you for that. I will receive it. I don't know if you remember one of the first times I talked to you was on the Bristol campus in the cafeteria you and Jalen Rose. How long had you been at ESPN at that point? I got there in 2007 so I've been hitting the head a lot. When do we have that demean? Yeah, no, I don't know, but you had been there a while,

and I came up to you, and I said, they're not using you guys, right? The breadth of your personality, they're putting you in a box. You come out, you stand in a place, they ask you a question, be the football expert, be the basketball expert, and they're not showing what incredible breath you guys had. And the reason I remember the conversation is because you forced your way into showing everyone at that company and everyone in the country.

It wasn't because that place was confining to you. And you broke free of it to show people the full force of your personality. Yeah, and it was intentional. I just didn't know when to detonate because you get there. You're a rookie. It feels like, and coach tells you to run a play

and you run it respectfully. And then one thing I've learned over the years that no matter what situation you're in, there's a lion inside of you that's waiting to be uncaged. And usually that comes from comfort and confidence, all these kind of choice words. But basically, you know where those keys are.

And it's like, when do I unleash this lion? When do I let people hear them roar? And for me, I didn't know when to do it, where to do it. I was like, first, just have job security. Just stay here. But beyond that, I remember talking to Mike Golick, pretty early in my stay there, and he said, you're a storyteller,

and he says, you have a story to tell. He's like, stay off the script. Don't do the X's and those. Don't do what they want you to do, but tell him who you are. And that sounded great coming from him, but at the same time, I'm like, you're Mike Golick, you're on Mike,

and Mike, like, I can't pull that right now. But then that was actually validated by Seth Markman, who came to me after my 10th NFL live show. He's like, look, I don't know what you're saying up there, what you're doing up there, but you're not long for this game, not long for this business. Now, look, I'm like, uh, oh, here come my walking papers are already. And guess what he said after that? He said, and that's actually a good thing. He's like, you're bigger than the role we have for you right now.

I don't know what the next role is for you, but we'll figure that out. That turns into sports nation. That turns into more personality-based commentary and then I was off to the races. And then it seems, and I haven't talked to you in a while, it got a little too fluffy for you. You are somebody who has always excelled

beyond any reasonable expectation. And I've not had this conversation with you, but I have felt from afar, oh, Marcellus was tired of eating the cotton candy, tired, and he's like, I'm a grown adult who has lived a full life, I would like grown adult who has lived a full life. I would like to talk to people beyond sports. I'd like to teach them some things

about the America we're living in right now. Oh, absolutely. And it happened over time. It wasn't just one day. Wasn't the pandemic. It wasn't any incident. It started with knowing that sports has always been my entryway, my entrance to a new frontier, like born in Com incident. It started with knowing that sports has always been

my entryway, my entrance to a new frontier, like born in Compton, okay? Where are you gonna get your identity, your self-esteem? How you gonna navigate around all the ills in my community? And sports was always the entrance to something else. So that allowed me to go to a good high school. And I say good because these kids

were actually thinking next level, secondary education, et cetera. It takes me to Columbia and it allows me to go to the NFL. And then sports allowed me to have an opportunity to go to ESPN with a Columbia degree and jump the line of all these future all of famers that I was able to get the show before them. And then I'm in the game for 20 years it felt like,

and I'm like, I'm still doing the same thing. What's the next frontier? And I think I was this inching closer and closer to that. Co-hosts, after co-hosts, ice skating as I call it, surface level shows, at the surface level shows. Got tired of saying, Jets Patriots, who you got? Oh, by three.

I was like, man, I got four kids at home. There's real life in my house present day, and they're looking forward. And I gotta give them a world that's better than the one I inherited. And I'm not gonna do that just yelling Jets and Patriots. So I didn't wanna disrupt the economic model

that existed, because it was beneficial to me and beneficial to many others. But I knew it wasn't going to allow me to show all of my skills, my attributes. It wasn't going to allow me to flex all my muscles. So, I had to make a change. I'd like to talk to you about some of that journey and what you've learned in broadcasting and in football.

But when you mentioned the kids, you felt you would be failing them as a father because this I've also seen from afar and I don't know you this way. But what I've seen from you and your love life in public, you've seen very in love, deeply, deeply in love and she seems from afar. Like someone who admires the man you really are, and the man she thinks you can be, and you can't be the dad that she expects you to be, or that you expect to be,

if you're just cash and checks, because you could keep feeding the machine, just saying the things that need to be said, as broadcasting great Marcelo Swyland. Yes, deeper meaning, impact. I think the moments for me were looking at my kids. And you know, you live that American dream to some degree in your head where you're like,

wow, racks to riches, I made it, I made it to the league, I'm on TV, and I've checked all those boxes, and I still felt hollow to a point. And I was like, why you don't have the total fulfillment, especially because you dream of having all of these things, you have all these things in abundance, and they still don't fulfill you,

they still don't feel that bucket. And I didn't know what it was until I started to really rear my children, all four of my kids all together and I was like, that's what it is. I'm not looking at life through my scope anymore. I'm looking at it forward through their lens. And this world looks different than the world I grew up in. So for me, it was pretty simple.

Even though it was, it was tasking. It was really simple. I looked around when I was little and I was like, I'm smart and I'm good in sports. That's all I got. Then I looked around at everyone else and I was like, I saw talent after talent, but I also saw dreams I'm fulfilled. And I saw the gangs, the drugs, the poverty,

all that stuff was in the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I said, there's something worse here. And it was the low ambition. I saw people who have in jobs, not careers. No one, it felt like, that I knew, could say, yes, I made my dreams a reality. And I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. My goal in life is make my dreams a reality.

And I used my school work, use my skills on the field to get there. And then when I got there, I did all the simple things that you would do. Bioticars, date the girls, spend some money, ball out. I did all those things, still needed to feel more fulfilled. I have my family. And then it hit me, Dan.

I'm coaching, so I coached my son. He's eight years young and I'm coaching and I'm literally working at Fox and I'm coaching my son and this is when I finally realized what it was. And I'm looking at all these kids and one day it was just randomly. Cooper Cup, Matthew Stafford showed up

to our championship game. And after it, you all want to picture and stuff with them. So I take them over to introduce them. Then we come back as a team. And I was like, so who's your favorite players? They're like, Cooper Cup, yeah. And I was like, all right, and Matthew Stafford, yeah, we love them. That fast, they converted from other players.

Then we talk another sports and they're telling me all these names. And I was like, damn, I really do a job. I really work at a place that I would tear down some of these kids' heroes. I'm actually feeding with these kids or trying to build up. I'm tearing down. And I was like, not me personally,

but what I do and where I'm at. And then I started to realize, oh, I can't participate in that anymore that way. And that's what you probably witness. It's just a shift of my mindset, my mindset, my spirit of like, I don't wanna do it this way anymore. And I knew that was the way to the riches.

I knew that was the way to success. And when you abandon that, obviously, you're going to use a plateau or you need to move on and do it your way. You blew through the gangsters, the poverty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you do. You blow through that part when, like, if we want, let do, you bloat, you blew through that part when like if we want,

let's do this a bit biographically before we arrive at the father that you are and the husband that you are. Your scars must run deep, but you're tough and you just say the gangs, the poverty, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not tough, but yes, I've learned to give is to get. So if I don't want to get any negativity, I don't want anything coming my way that's bad, I can't get that out.

I also learned that attention is invention. So I was a youngster and I was like, these suckers are everywhere. And they're running the neighborhood, they're punking everybody, they robbing, and killing, they're doing all what they do. They're messing with me here and there. How do I get away from this?

And I was like, you can't ignore it fully because you gotta learn the code. You got to learn how to navigate through it, walk around this, see this, know what this hat means, know what this sign means, know who they are, know where they from. And so I didn't want it to, but I had to then use up so much of my mental space on bull, like just straight BS on straight, how am I gonna get home today? Oh, there they go.

Or how am I gonna get there and I can't take that bus or how am I gonna go over there and I can't where it is? And my scars, I'm not tough. That's part of how I survived. I didn't even fake it. I didn't even try to flirt with it. I had no interest in being hard, tough, gangster, running the streets.

And that with the protection of, I was good in sports. They couldn't box me in. I had family that was in the streets. My mother had three brothers, two were killed, murdered, one committed suicide, all street life. And that's where we move from Compton to greener pastors, which end up being South Central LA, which you know both.

It's kind of a lateral move at best. You are a nerd. Oh, bonafide nerds, straight up front class. No apple for the teacher, but still just raising my hand intellectually curious. Thought it was not only valuable, but it was the best way to utilize your time to actually sit in class, be attentive,

raise your hand, try to learn. Like I didn't understand the paradigm, the dynamic of nah, it's better to be in the back understand the paradigm, the dynamic of, nah, it's better to be in the back of the class, cracking jokes and being cool and looking fresh. I was like, that's dumb, but I knew that was dumb because I had family, like I said, my uncles who were street life vets, OGs.

Everywhere they went, everybody respect them. Everywhere they went, everyone bowed down to them. But every time they came in a house, I saw the real. I saw the real pain. I saw that they didn't have much. I saw that my grandmother, their mom, was constantly on them for real reasons. And I was like, damn, look at the dichotomy of them out there,

everybody bowing down and them in here, they don't know which way is up. And I just live behind that veil of what a real gangster life was and never, ever try to play it off and never try to live up to that part. How does one survive all of that? Because of that, that's what you're saying. What helped you survive it is just you are authentically yourself and just forever weary and and eager to learn something because that's those are adult processes that you are doing when you're doing the math of

Very early. I need something better. I don't know that kids always know that I think Kids grow up in what they grow up in and then they think that's they're normal and that's what life's supposed to be. Yeah, I mean, and that's why when you said my scars run deep, it's because I did have to fast forward through some of those childhood moments. I had to get past those because I had a deeper responsibility. What I realized was like, my mom, I was a mama's boy. And my mom was a straight A student, but she had a kid at 17 and she had me at 19. So, and I was like, my mom is smart. She's funny. She's six one. Like, she's athletic. I was like, my mom checked every box. Why? But we're on welfare, we're on food stamps, we're growing up poor. And since I was a mama's boy,

I'm gonna take care of my mama, but I'm gonna take care of my mama, and why am I gonna take care of my mama? The why was asked her first because she didn't make it to where she wanted to make it. And having those two kids so young, she devoted all of her attention and time and focused to us.

And I was like, this is why I'ma pay her back. Because she could have been more, but she took the time and investment to make sure I am. So I'm gonna pay her back. And I just created this ambition. Like I would say that really what got me out of there is like I knew I had to be greater than my greatest excuse. And I had a lot of excuses

because I heard everyone else use them as excuses. And they weren't even just excuses. Sometimes there were reasons and realities why they still were there. And I looked around, I was like, I just can't come back with one of these excuses reasons back to this reality. So my mother was my fuel, my jet fuel.

Every time I started to doubt, started to fill it and started to internalize it. I was like, don't push it back out. You're doing this for mom. And so I just went on that journey, because I knew there were more talented football players, better players, smarter students. I knew all those things. So I was like, but I'm not going to take no for an answer. I'm going to make it out of here and I'm taking my family with me.

We're going to make our dreams real. So you seem to object to me saying that you were tough because you're thinking of a younger boy. I'm thinking of the young man that goes from that to football because that whatever led to that, you accepting the pain that I'm seeing you wave your hands around. People don't have any idea what you've done to those hands in pursuit. Like you can't tell me that your hands look like that. Yeah, yeah. And that you are not tough because in pursuit of your dreams,

you did that to your hands. I know it's crazy too. And there's so many moments then that, how do you say? I always tell people like, no one chooses football. Football chooses you unless your dick buck is rest in peace or Ray Lewis. I say everyone else football chose them. They did one chooses football. Football chooses you unless your dick buck is resting piece or Ray Lewis. I said, everyone else football chose them. They did not choose football.

It hurts every day, every way, but it's so rewarding. But I chose football because it was my only expression that I saw that would take me to the next level. I ran track when I was really young, super fast, one nationals, one set national records, like super fast, but my mom was 6'1, 250, like single Terry, like she was going, I was gonna be a big boy, but it just took a while.

And so I grew track basically. And football was it. But for me, I didn't have the deepest love for football. I used football as a vehicle. I was like, I'ma drive this as far as I can. Because you're right, it hurt. I mean, it's a Wednesday, Dan. It's October, you're nine years old.

And instead of riding your bike, you play in the Tendo, you're putting on die pads. And I was like, hell, but I was like, you gotta chip in on this, you gotta invest in your future. And I hated those moments. I loved the game, I loved playing, I loved how good I was, I loved all of that. I hated that process that the only way I can really see out of here is in that classroom and these tie pads.

I hated that I only thought and only saw those as options. And I saw football as the helicopter ride up and the slow play was gonna be in the classroom. And then you got it though. Like you got it through Columbia. I don't know where you, evidently, you got to Columbia thinking still you were gonna be a professional football player. Like you know what all the math is against you.

You know what you're up against, correct? But you're, this is the path. You're gonna go through Columbia to the NFL and be a professional football player. Yeah, you're smart, dude. That's why I always send you those texts. I had to hedge my bet. I had to, remember I said I can't come back

with any excuse, reason, back to this reality. And I was like, I am a good football player. Yeah, I'm getting recruited by big schools. I could be another one of those who goes to the football factory. I said, man, what if you don't make it? What would they look, what would they see in you in terms of perception?

Would you still be a dumb jock to them? And I was like, man. So this is what happened. Major school at the Major School after me, Columbia. And I'm like, oh, random. But at the time I didn't even know what the Ivy League was. I didn't know about the ancient aid. I didn't know about their academic reputation,

except Bill Cosby on the Cosby show where the Harvard Yale Princeton sweaters. And then I found out, oh Columbia is one of those schools in that league. Then I said, okay, here's the calculation. If someone pulls up to you in a Rolls Royce at the red light and you see them, you look at them, you're thinking to yourself, they're doing well, whatever that may be. It may not even be theirs, but you're just like, wherever that is, they're doing all right. Not knowing there's a situation for real. That's the top layer. It may not even be theirs, but you're just like, wherever that is, they're doing all right.

Not knowing there's a situation for real. That's the top layer. And I said, but if I saw a guy on the bus, I would think, oh, not doing so well. All right, you're on the bus. But what if a billionaire guy on the bus you didn't know that? And what if a broke guy was just driving

his boss's Rolls Royce around. And I just made this like perceptional decision. Like I need people to perceive me as intelligent because big black football player from Compton, I just can see them now under their breaths if I don't make it, dumb jog. More hurdles in front of me, doors closed. Oh, another football player I don't make it, dumb job. More hurdles in front of me, doors closed.

Oh, another football player who didn't make it now, he wants to be a CEO, etc. And I was like, why do I have to go through that process? And so, Lurley Columbia was going to give me the complexion of the intelligence that I wanted to be perceived. I wanted people to just, without, and it happened, it happened in life. No lie, Dan. You have double negatives in the sense. Ah, he's just, say something, makes no sense.

Ah, he went to Columbia. I got the benefit of doubt all the time. And that's what I was really signing up to receive when I went to Columbia is do not doubt me just because of what you see coming. And so those are some deeper dynamics that I had to internalize from growing up in the situation that I did. The hedging of bets is you're saying I need as many options as I can to out and football

is one of them. It might be unlikely, but also this will be a good school to go to. And still somehow it seems like somewhere in here, you tell me if I have this wrong, you're feeling somewhere like you're an underachiever because you got to these places in jockdom that come with great fanfare.

And here you are at this age telling me, no, I wanted to be something better. I wanted to be something better to my kids than even that guy who I admired because I, you understood how much glory and vanity and ego came from the world you conquered. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my deeper essence, my deeper mission is always to be, always has been to really inspire others really to have a greater impact than just what I could have with my body. But I needed my body to even get to the place where people can feel that impact.

And it's crazy. My first interview, someone sent this to me maybe a year ago or so I saw it. My first interview when I got drafted to Buffalo Bills. And I learned that the reporter's basically saying, so Marcel, what do you want to do in your career? You know, you've been drafted, what are your goals? And I said, I want to be good enough and play long enough that my voice is loud enough so I can make a difference. And that's not the same rookie speech

that you hear from most guys that are getting drafted. And in a nutshell, Dan, it was like almost, I was a kid that was like, damn, this is all I can do. Am I allowed to do? I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do what I have to to do what I want to. And that's where it started to go.

Where'd you learn that, though? What age are you when you're learning that crossroads right there? I'm going to go really be me. I'm going to answer my heart and not just take what everyone else tells me is a good enough life for me. It's 40, 45. It's having my son, having my two daughters, my youngest family complete.

And I think when you start to button that up and you start to say, okay, no more kids. Now, let's secure this and let's envision what the future looks like for this. And then you're like, what is that? Is that more of the same? And it's like, I felt abandoned. Like, I was away from what I wanted to do.

And I wasn't doing exactly what I could do where I was. And I was like, oh man, this is weird. And I was fat and full, I call it the velvet coffin. You know, you get in those big checks and direct deposit every two weeks. You're like, it just loads you back to sleep. And then my kids are waking me up with a question. My kids are waking me up with a need.

And I'll just keep looking at them. And I'm like, you're really gonna tap out like this. So, if I'm living this way, because of comfort, just doing what I can do. Imagine how I would live if I were challenged, if I actually leaned into the challenges that I know that I can actually overcome and conquer. So, I think it was just my complete family,

my wife looking at me, knowing me, and my kids needing me that made me have to come to that realization. What about you? Because you're someone I look up to. And from my vantage point, I've seen a lot of dynamics and shifts with you, and I'm not just talking about in low cal and occupation, it just seems like also in spirit and sentiments. What about you? Well, what have you seen? And I will answer your question, even though you're turning it back on me, but because I want to talk to you about love, because what you're speaking of, and I'm not going to

turn this, I will answer your question, because I'm not going to turn this I will answer your question because I'm not going to avoid it but because I do think that love is the starting point on all of this what you've just described to me in somebody who felt like by a very high standard his own that he was failing as a father and not being the husband that you thought your wife married and the man that she knows you to be because she loves you. So the love and the strength of that emboldens you and I would say same for me. I found a woman who challenges me to be my best self and demands it in a way that is so loving and caring and understanding only because she knows what I need for myself. And when you're buoyed from there, one of the things that I've admired from you is like,

oh, this man's strong enough to know he needs to follow. He needs to follow here because this woman can open his heart and reveal himself to himself in a way that the challenges you must accept them, right? You must accept them. The degree of difficulty is who you are. That's who you've always been. And so I needed love to teach me that. Oh, that's, that is it. And that is a lot of what I felt. And I also had, in front of me, the other alternate experience. So I have four kids. Now watch these ages. 24, eight, four, and three.

You already know two different mothers. Three kids from my wife now, one from baby's mother years ago. When you didn't know yourself. When I didn't know myself, when I'm checking all these boxes, when the kid from Compton is like, this is the way and this is it and everything's gonna change. And once I move to the suburbs and I have three level home

and nine cars and everything's gonna be great. And I look in the mirror and it's gonna be silent or just nothing but peace because he's happy. And there were moments like that, but they were too infrequent. There were too many times where I was still seeking the next, needing more. And when I had my youngest daughter,

so that's three years ago, that adds up to like the 45 year age. And I'm looking at her and all the moments in one day that she needed daddy from just the toys too far from her to change in her to burp and I'm like, can't believe I missed so many of these moments from my odys. And so you know, her and I will sit back light of fire, sitting the backyard, and try to talk and just cry out

because we both know we didn't connect like we could have should have in so many of those moments. And I was a quote unquote present father, which is a whole different conversation because it's different from being a present father and then being in the home as a nuclear family, nuclear father, but I missed them, Dan. And then now I had them.

And that was just another wake up call to never let them go. So you've made choices about who you are and when you direct the question at me, And that was just another wake up call to never let them go. So you've made choices about who you are. And so when you direct the question at me, I have. I am trying a business venture on my own. And you can speak directly of what the challenges are. No matter how much you have built up your brand,

when you leave and go out on your own, there's a fight to be waged in this space over personality-driven podcasts, or a thousand people to a thousand microphones. You have one yourself, forgive me. Let's plug it now. Never set up. OK, so forgive me, because I want the people

to know who you are. That's one of the reasons I wanted to do this with you. Because from way back, we were were during a different time, we had you on as the love doctor, giving us, giving us relationship advice at a time. I'm guessing that you probably didn't know yourself or your wife would tell me what a fool that guy was. What a fool. And I admired him because he knew everything.

That guy was wise about relationship. He know more about winning than any of us. He's stronger than us. He's cooler than us. Yes. And it seems to me like you have had to make choices on behalf of who you are now, at least in part, correct? And I don't want to speak for you because of who she knows you to be.

Exactly. As a father, like it's the man she loves. The man she loves had to go out on his own and fight for not predicting the judge's result that week because that's not the point of having these microphones and it's not the point of doing everything you did in conquering two worlds, broadcasting world and a football world.

And I don't know which one was harder for you. Great, great, great assessment on it all. And my wife slapped me in the head inadvertently when my son was like two months old. And so little man, loving life, I'm working with Max at the time, we're doing our radio show, Ansport's Nation. I live that downtown Rich Carlton, right above ESPN LA downtown.

So one minute commute walking right across the hall. And I'm just everything's convenient, everything's great. I got my son, I'm loving life, let's go. And this was the first time I saw a stop sign. So I went out, I was hanging out, guys in the buildings. And since I live so close and work so close, everything's so close, I, whatever. So LA is just down to two o'clock. I get home three, whatever. And go to bed like three, 30, gotta be up at six. Why do I have to be up at six?

Because my wife is like, uh-uh, you knew that you had to be up. Just your shift for a little man. If you wakes up at six, you're playing with him. And it wasn't no rollover. Come on, baby. You know last night, I was out. It was like, nope. And Dan, there was this temptation. And I noticed this, this, how to ring it. You know, the door lock babysitter. So you go into a room with a baby, you lock the door, make sure it's child proof. Let the baby play you sleep next to the baby, right? I've seen the trick thousand times, right? I didn't, this is my first boy, my daughter,

she's way older, so it's like, damn, all right? And then I was thinking about doing it, and I was like, nah. I said, now, this is the challenge, that was the challenge. Would you wake up and be present with your son right now because he wants you, doesn't care about anything else. That always sticks in my head like, ah, and I answered that challenge. I actually stayed up, it was painful.

All the above, took a nap later, but I knew and then alterations, edits, start leaning into who you are. You're gonna still do this? Would you gonna be the 19th year NFL veteran, even though you retired, our Bundy type, still living, hanging, chilling, are you gonna really lean into what's real?

And lean into what's right for you. So that started me on that mission. That day, two months after he was born, when I didn't mel it in that moment, I actually responded to it. There's real wisdom in this, right? In learning all of a sudden in the presence of that, oh, my life is my life cannot be most completely my own unless I live in service

of of this group of people who have taught me what real love is so that so that the happiest I will be on this earth is with this group of people who bring me the greatest joy that reside beyond football conquerors and money and joy and in the places that people tell you joy is to be found. Yeah, all of that, man. And it's crazy, Dan. Oh, because I literally grew up dreaming of all those things

as the answers and the antidotes to all the ills that I had present day. And then when you get it, now I know why Puffy said more money, more promise. What he really meant is even if you got money, you're still gonna have problems. Like, not more and more, it's just like, you think that you are going to get rid of them

with a check, It won't happen. And so I came to that realization. And I just knew I had to lean into what was forward for my children and my family. That made my decision to leave broadcast media in the traditional form a lot easier than people think. People don't know the beats of it. I don't necessarily always unveil it, or I do it sporadically kind of asteroids, so they kind of get a piece here, get a piece there.

But it was a long tedious process of me changing on the inside and the industry changing on the outside. Well, let's unravel that for a second because I'd like to take me down the path of what it is that you're untangling as you're trying to come through the thicket of, it's gonna be harder to do this by myself.

I know that, but I have to do it by myself because it's the only honest, authentic way I can possibly do it. Not bought by anybody, I'm gonna try and do it on my own in ways that honor who my family thinks I am. Yeah. Now, walk with me here. Remember I'm the kid that was like, okay, gotta hedge my bed, basically give myself the highest safety net.

Gotta go to Columbia. I know I wanna go to these other schools. My friends certainly do. But I was like, nah, dawg, I gotta go here just for the perception. Get to the NFL, play 10 years. All certainly do. But I was like, nah, dawg, I got to go here just for the perception. Get to the NFL, play 10 years. All of a sudden, I skipped the line, go ahead of a lot of players who wanted the same gig, and I got the gigs.

But if you look and squint at my broadcast career, you start to realize, damn, you had a lot of co-hosts. You worked with everyone. And that started off with some Michelle Beato, start to realize, damn, you had a lot of co-hosts. You worked with everyone. And that started off, it's Michelle Beato, it's a Chris Atomson, it's a Max Callum man, it's a Jason Whitlock, it's a Manuel Acho, Carrie Champion, Elzy Grannison,

I mean El Hasen, yada, I mean, everybody. And what it told me is that the universe whispers before a yells and all these changes I was winning but more in my world losing by law of association Because everyone was seeing a piece of me as a teammate to someone else But seeing different pieces and never seeing me in fullness So I'm like I'll say the same thing. You say it with Jason Whitlock. It lands differently than if you say with Max Kalimit.

I'll say the same thing, Michelle Beto. It lands differently when you say with Carrie Champion. And I was like, why am I getting taken? Me, the persona, not even me, my identity, just the persona. Why am I getting taken all across this landscape in terms of who he is, what is he really about, who is he, when I'm like, I'm me.

I'm the guy that could work with anybody because I'm good with everybody. But that wasn't really the summation. So that was part of it as well. And I think the last part of it was the fact that the opportunity in front of me of it was the fact that the opportunities in front of me, it was our challenge. They said basically, look, we could keep you fat and full

in this velvet coffin, or dare I say, you bet on yourself. Just like I bet on myself when I went to Columbia, but I still can make it to the NFL. I was like, I've made that bet before. And leaving Columbia, this would gave me the confidence, Dan. No one knows this, but when I was graduating in our school paper, they wrote up the salaries that they knew of all the graduating seniors.

And of course, I was number one, I got drafted. And then in that article, they also wrote that the Ivy League was now going to have their third active player in a film. Me. But the Ivy League had six owners in the NFL. And that hit me like, I am not going to get caught up. I am going to bed on my brain, not on my body, but still got to do what I need to do to do what I want to do. And I kept going. Any asteroids missing there that you're not telling us

that you're trying to avoid just so that I have a complete picture because I didn't believe I was whispering to you in that cafeteria. I don't believe I was whispering to you in that cafeteria. I don't know how you received what it is. It might have been, I will tell you that in it, in what I felt like was a spiritual moment for me, I was overstepping my bounds. I did not, I did not know you that way. I'd read articles about you that made me feel I knew a little bit because of how much you revealed about what your physical pain was In having a surgery that tore your abdomen apart and and that what you were describing was so excruciating to me that I felt like I knew a little bit a person

Who was in there who had shown me glimpses of himself in the broadcast, and I was telling you, flatly, not whispering it, they don't know how to use you, not with co-hosts, not with, like this, you need a couple of things here just so that you could be your maximum self, but they have to feel like support to you, not like you need to get along with everybody because you're not the talent here. Yes, yes, yes, let's talk through that.

Ah, ah. So in real time, present time, it's a compliment. Like, okay, you have your own show. Now your show is with Michelle Bito. Amazing. Your show's with Max. All these names. Great, great, great.

And I was like, I work well with them, but I work better in a different setting, in a different environment, in a different format, but it's not this one. So it's like, now what do you do? Because I don't have the power to create that what I'm talking about. Nor do I really have the deep intel of what that is,

but I know it's not this. So I didn't want to slap the compliment away of what that is, but I know it's not this. So I didn't want to slap the compliment away of, thank you for this job, thank you for this show, et cetera. But behind my eyes, it was a slow death in terms of my brain cells based on the subject matter. And I was entertaining people. It's fun, but it wasn't making me get any greater in terms of my identity, my essence, my impact, the things that matter more to me.

So I was just basically having a job that was satisfying, but not gratifying. And I hated that. And a couple of my bosses started to sniff that. And they were like, what do you really wanna do? And I told them, in this last round of contract talks, I kept saying deeper. And I knew that was gonna get met with resistance because that's not the model.

And I was like, I just can't do water skiing monkeys and I can't do DAC sucks or is DAC top five, like every other top, I just can't. And I don't want that to come out like those who do are bad for doing it, but I'm me and they're them. So. Oh, but it sounds like you also realize, okay,

I'm keeping my family alive. I'm keeping pieces of my identity alive. Nobody has any idea how hard it is to retire as a football player, physically broken and look at the landscape that is the rest of your life, that you're going to limp through in a great deal of pain because of what the sport did to you. People can't understand. I don't even know what's harder, getting to the NFL or retiring. life that you're going to limp through in a great deal of pain because of what the sport did to you. People can't understand, I don't even know what's harder, getting to the NFL or retiring from

the NFL when I look at both of those things. You can answer that question. Yeah, look, I was fortunate, but I will talk for those who aren't and weren't as fortunate. When I got drafted to Buffalo, I remember hanging out with all my boys. All of them were straight, yellow brick, rolled into Wall Street, become analysts, worked 25 hours a day. That's what their life was to become successful. And they all became successful, but boy, was it a grind. And I remember we were pounding a few drinks and just talking to laughing.

And I was like, you know what the best part about being drafted is right now? And they're like, well, I was like, I don't have to think about what I wanna do next. You guys had to. And I know some of them didn't figure it out. I was like, damn, it's the same thing when you're retiring from the NFL.

I had ESPN waiting for me. It took a few months for me to make it work, but I had something. Those guys, man, when they're done, then the light goes off for some of them. Like, oh, remember that whole perception, the roles, Royce and this and that. It's not even that they're not intelligent

and not smart enough and they're just wrapped in the packaging that's gonna be labeled this. And I didn't wanna be wrapped in that package. So that's where the Columbia paid off. And then talking to them, man, it's, for me, I always had something waiting on me. But if I didn't and I know what that feels like cause I've had those conversations with those guys,

that's scary. And especially when you're 30 something years old and you're thinking you got 40, 50, 60 more years and no answers, just questions. Yeah, that's devastating, bro. Yeah, but you get to all of the things and then aren't quite fulfilled. You're still empty.

You're holding on to the paychecks that keep you famous. Hey, he's Marceles Wiley, former NFL great broadcaster for a long time. He's been on my television talking for many years. That's a name I know. He has turned a career that was excellent above average by any standard, he planned for a broadcasting career,

mastered that as well and is feeling something empty very soon because, I mean, with Max, I felt like I got a lot of your personality. I felt like I saw more of you with Max than I saw with anybody. I felt like I saw real genuine friendship and love there, understanding. I thought that was the best partner, and no offense to anybody else,

but that was the best chemistry I saw with anybody. Absolutely, it was the best chemistry. And large part is because we have a lot of similarities in terms of how we look at life. Family first, our affinity for learning, hip hop, beefing, clowning, we just, brothers from another in that respect. You love him.

Oh yeah. Because he's a smart dude. He's like, and he's a real dude. And he really helped me through some really painful moments. He helped reconcile my father and I. We had a strange relationship for a few years there. On air, we're reconciling this. Like we're not off air, like just vibing bruzz.

Like on air, the death of my former teammate, Jr. Say, I have many moments where I was really emotional. And sometimes in despair, Max and I talked that out on air, vulnerable. I guess that's what it is for both of us, vulnerable. And, you know, no slight, like you said, to any of the co-host,

because I grab something from everybody, but I do have a BCS ranking and Max was number one for sure. That said, what I had still unfulfilled was, I wanted to be a school teacher and people laughed at me. And literally my fallback plan was, if I didn't make it to the NFL from Columbia, I was gonna go to LA Unified School District and teach kids.

Now, people were smacking that around and making some sense. They're like, Doc, you're not gonna grade 35 papers on the state capitals every day. I was like, you're right. So, principal, Dean, something with kids. And that's what I was always in pursuit of. Where can I go to educate, entertain,

and still flex all my muscles. So what I'm doing now is trying to rig sports media, lifestyle, entertainment culture, how we communicate, in a way that has a positive lace to it, educational base to it, but it's still entertaining. Like you're basically giving them their medicine in the candy. And I'm trying to do that. Well, you can teach people a lot of things

about a lot of different subject matter, but I'd like to go back to something that you said with some chest on max and some pride. You said vulnerable. We had a relationship that was vulnerable. Where have you learned wisdoms about the value of the best relationships always having that?

Oh man, the experience speaks for itself. In terms of, I'm a firm believer to give is to get. So if I wanna get this love, I gotta give this love. If I wanna get this openness and freedom, I gotta give it. And I'm like that all the time. And then I read the room, I read my personnel, no thy personnel, and I realized not everyone is receptive of that.

And Max was, Max was vulnerable as well. His father being a shrink, him going through life experiences, and the death of his brother, all those kind of things left him vulnerable, always thinking, curious, and nuanced and ready to discuss. Like, I'm not a natural debater. I hate that because I'm like, I gotta pick a side.

Just reminds me of my childhood, a cripple blood. I'm like neither. Now that's a gang because now you gotta avoid both of them. I'm like, I hate binary choices. I hate a world where you gotta love something or hate it. I hate it all day. I'm like, I avoided that my whole childhood

picking which side of the street. And now you're gonna make me do that in occupation or in rhetoric, I was like, this is silly. So, what Max and I, we had a chemistry where if it's something we're thinking about, let's talk about. And it was just that simple, man. And that led us to getting to places

where I wasn't with any other co-hosts. And I think the audience felt the same way. Most fun you've had professionally. Most fun. Just when you think of that, is there anything else I'm taking football in there too. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Define fun again. What's rating? I'm talking about the greatest connection that you have had anywhere along your life with a brother or a friend who along the path work was fun because he was he was there. Oh man that's that's that's yeah he's he's certainly in the college football playoffs for that. Yes absolutely. They're all

like different levels of fun because I had a different level of conscious and consciousness at that time. Like, oh man, I'm pre-social media in a film. It's hard to get more fun in that, y'all. And I got all the receipts up here. Okay, I was trying to make it a love story between you and Max, and you're like, no, I played professional football.

Do you have any idea how wonderful my life is? Oh, I'm saying. Fair enough. But when I ask you about the people who have imprinted you insisting that you be better, I don't know where your ambition comes from. I don't know why it is your built the way that would make you achieve all the things

and then somehow judge yourself as still having under-achieved. I don't know where any of that comes from. I do. I do. I do. It comes from, you know this, looking at your balance sheet from your financial advisor. I remember not having money growing up and you have a bank account. Then you one day get enough money where you got a CPA, you're meeting with all these

financial advisors and they're talking way deeper than you know, but you got to trust in someone. And that's the experience of the young athlete, but the second generation athletes now obviously going to have a leg up. But I remember getting my first statement, and I remember seeing this line said, unrealized gains. And I was like, oh, what's that?

And I was like, that's the money you could have, but we're not going to touch that. We're not going to mess with that, but that's what you could have. I grew up in the community and it started with my mom looking at her every single day and every single way as unrealized gains.

Like, she could have, she never did. And so what I now base myself on is did I do all that I could and I can because I know what she was incapable of doing and didn't allow herself to do. So that's always like my reflection. It's like and it's not a burden. People think like sometimes when I talk they're like, oh man, I'm your torture and I'm like, not be. I just know that I have a deep motivation that I have now aggregated all of the unrealized gains of my family, and I'ma make sure I make that imprint in this world. Did I hear blame for your mother in there? Because you're saying she could have,

and it was unrealized, and I would think that there would be a whole ton of variables that you're expecting her to overcome there that might be very difficult to overcome, but you're expecting them because that's where the greatest love resides and that's what you demand of yourself as a as a wily. Oh yeah, you must have been in our house. When I, when I be a teenager, I started to not rebel, but have dialogue.

Let's say deeper dialogue, really vocal dialogue with a mother like, okay, mom, 17 and 19, you had us. We're 13 and 15 now. Your turn to live. Mom was like, it was just like to get old Betsy started, to get the car started, it was tough for her. So she ended up being a postal worker, but she was so much greater in my eyes, so much grander in my eyes, but that's what she became, and I loved her for that. But I always used to challenge her

and say, what do you really want to do? That's what you're just doing. So I didn't, in that conversation when you're playing that tug of war, you start to realize the grip you have. You start to realize your strength because you're playing that tug of war, you start to realize the grip you have. You start to realize your strength because you're making sense. Because now you're seeing your mom be convulnerable.

You're starting to see her weaknesses. You're starting to see her running to her challenges and stopping. And all that empowered me. All of that made me say it's my turn. Because I see what my mom did well and I see what my mom fell short in. And instead of using that against her,

I'm gonna use that for me. And so yeah, we used to have those discussions, and I was like, and that's why one of my mantras is be greater than your greatest excuse because we all have them. But my mom could easily turn the corner and became more if she wanted more, but she loved what she was. And then I make it to the NFL, and it's rap.

Like she, she, she, she beyond the proudest mama ever, right? That mama, I'm that dude, she's that mama. And I'm like, oh my God, this is the craziest thing in the world. And I let her live, man, I let her live into. She passed away in 2005, breast cancer. Where does the dialogue go when you're thinking about your own kids? Because if I can dare to assume that I know anything about you,

I'm guessing that your mission is to be of the greatest service to them in every way that you could possibly be or you will have failed. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Fully motivated, fully dedicated all in. It's weird, I just want them to have the engine. This is something I used to talk about all the time

with Max, we used to talk about, I want them to have the hardware so that the world could apply any software and they're able to run efficiently. Give them anything because their hardware is built up. And that's why it's so important that I attack the sensibilities of today's media culture, messaging, whatever's coming at them, it seems like we have fewer decoders out there than I desire. Let's just say that. I wish we had more people who would say it the way it really is. Say it the way that we all need to hear it.

I'm very blunt, very direct, but I do it with a smile, so maybe it's received differently. But I wish we had more people that just told these kids which way it's up instead of saying no, it doesn't matter wherever you wanna go, whichever way you want to, that's the way it is. And that's the problem. I think that you and Max need to get back together

and you need a partner, not because you have to have a partner, but somebody who can live in service of some of the things that you are in making some of the things you make because they believe the same things that you do. I don't know that, maybe you can explain it to the people. I don't know that they understand the labyrinth that you had to navigate in broadcasting to now I'm guessing be able to speak most freely and authentically about yourself in a time in America where your voice has some wisdom in it as things around us collapse.

Yes, yes. The whole journey, I mean, you're doing shows, you're loving it, you're on the road here and there. And it all was, it all was simpler back then in terms of the topics. The whole agenda seemed like just to entertain and educate fans. But from a reality base that is now much looser than it was even 10 years ago. I got into it because I love to translate the message,

translate the experience of what it was to be a professional athlete. Suppose that. I was like, this is me being a school teacher. Yeah, I could do it. But I'm gonna do it on a desk, and I'm gonna do it with a suit on, and I'ma just talk to people with video,

yes, I'ma teach you're still, but I'm teaching them what sports really feels like and looks like. And then you start to realize, oh, wait a minute, you're gonna have to make a choice, but either you're gonna have to get in one of these circus tents and do a little more theatrics, or it's not going to, you're not gonna be all pro. Let's just say that.

You be on a team, you can make a play out here, but you ain't gonna be all pro. So are there inauthentic versions of yourself that are now performing on television in a way that feel like in any way soul-selling to you because you have to be not just your most, you're trying to be your most authentic self and there are elements of this that are performative.

Like you have to put on a show and I don't know, did you think you were compromising or selling out in some way by trying to do television the way you were being taught to do television? No, and that's part of why a Dan Lebertart comes up to me and says, says they're not using you like the way that they should. And I'm sitting there realizing that I'm not at the top of the mountain in sports media because I'm not built

to do what's necessary to do and become that guy or those guys up there. Like you said, it's performative. And it's not a slight, it's just like, I'm not doing that. But there is a commonality between all those who are at the top, whether it's based on the business model, economic model, or just how they do it in performance

that none of those guys, the skips, Stephen A, Colin, like traditional media make the most, they play, they, they play. They didn't play. They didn't have that investment. So that gives them, I think, a detachment that allows them to activate their performance even more than me. I feel inhibited, I feel restricted

because of my investment, because of the reality base I'm coming from, right? So it happens in everything. Like when I have a foundation, project transition, we work with the underserved in the community. A lot of people have that same mission statement to work with them, give them resources. A lot of times people come in, big roller decks,

big brain, big heart, but not big in experience. They theorize on it. And I'm like, well, let me help you out because I'm bilingual. I speak half and I speak have not. I can tell you that what you're saying sounds good, maybe feels good, but won't be the most impactful. So I say, I saw that happening in this sports media. I was like, whoa, what's happening is there's a choice you got to make. You go activate and working with a manual outro at the end, made me realize, let me slide to the left and let him keep on going.

Because his ambition was the greatest I've ever seen in part because he's the youngest guy I ever worked with. But he wanted to be a star so much and so hard. I was like, it's almost like the NFL and you're like, this is why you retire because that 21 year old is gonna run through walls and you're not gonna run through and you're not gonna do what he's gonna do.

And whether you can do it or not, it's not the question. He ain't gonna do it. And I was just like, I need to move on. And that's when the opportunities started to present themselves elsewhere and I started to look elsewhere. That's an interesting way of looking at it. I didn't know that happened with Acho.

You say it's not bitterly, somewhat gently. It's the business. It's the game. Like you understood that he was going to do things on the way to start him, that you weren't willing to with the take. I was not bitter and I'm not bitter at what he did. And a lot of people want me to be bitter at what he did. I said, no, I'm not.

Now, how he did it, that's the conversation if you wanna have that. So this is how it went at Fox. I get there, Jason Whitlock is recruiting me. He's coming to my backyard a couple of times. I worked with him before. One of this families show show, Deeper, got me on the word Deeper.

I was hooked then, go there. We worked together for two years. Then he just goes. He's done. He just leaves. Now a lot of people don't know that, they wanted him to stay. They were working on his contract for a long time.

It didn't work out. The terms, whatever they may have been, and the power I think. Like, because we're like, we want to leave him more. He did a lot for that show. He led the show, designed the show. He did the topics, all that. And I love working on that show. So I won't just like that in any respect. But I knew a long time ago, months before he left that he was potentially leaving. He never told me. Then he just left and never told me.

We still boys to this day, but I was like, dog, you could at least just gave me the heads up, but I found out. So remember this, Dan, so I have a co-host who leaves in the middle of the night, but I already knew it was coming, so I was prepared. Nick Khan, my guy, Cobra, calls me up. Hey, I got an opportunity. I'm going to take a swing for the fences and you

got to do those things sometimes. I'll go, yeah, go get it. And we know how to turn that. But this is a super agent. You're talking about when you say Nick Khan, you're talking about a star maker. You knew how much power he had at ESPN and beyond. Nick Khan is saying, I as your agent can now shoot you in the real stardom where you can be your deepest self. Well, whoa, no, what he's saying is I'm leaving the agent business going to WWE to run it as a president. Then he got promoted.

I mean, it's just, oh wow. Okay, he left. So with like leaves, he leaves, or I'm sitting there like the universe whispers before he yells. And I'm like, damn. All right, so I don't have an agent my last two years on purpose.

Everyone's calling. I'm like, nope, nope, nope, because really, gotta got one foot out, or at least pointing in a different direction. Let's see how this plays out. I get Acho, and Acho and I are working together, all great. But few weeks into it, like just from hell low,

like I've known Acho for years, I met him before kind of like in the more of a like, I'm in the industry, he wasn't, he was just leaving school and we stayed in touch, doing from his ex-girlfriend blah blah. And I'm like, all right, you imagine working with somebody a few weeks and then you get a call.

And I got a call from two people, boss and co-worker. Hey, what's going on with your show? I was like, what do you mean? I'm still trying to do another show with his brother and all these other cats and trying to get you out. Man, we good.

I tucked that away because that's who I am. I'm not going to hold that against you, but I'ma watch. Remember, I just went through this with Whitlock. So we basically went almost two years of him giving me the dab in my face, but behind working. And I didn't put up any resistance because we weren't fighting for the same thing.

So when it was time to move on, I wasn't mad at what he did because I was like, I can't go to coach, just say, hey, coach, give me the ball more. If you wanna give me the ball more, it wasn't that kind of dynamic. He wanted what I had, what we had. Now, if he were to win about it, like Max did, with first take, soon Max got to call from Stephen

A. Max, like Marcellus, what's up? I was like, dog, what you think? And I was like, well, what you think? And we went back and forth many of times. That's what I wanted. I didn't get that out of Whitlock. I didn't get that out of Acho, and I wasn't mad at either one for what that was, was just how it was. And that leaves you feeling that you've arrived in a place in broadcasting where you have to make a choice now, right? The things that have happened in your career,

you're saying the game's not for me anymore. I'm not willing to fight over Jets Patriots, who's gonna have the strongest take. I wanna do something else with my life, but now this, I would say is hard, but you're telling me it's not that hard because you've been calling, like you've been the whispers,

you can no longer ignore the whispers or the shout. Yeah, my deep spirit is just telling me, why would you want to fight Whitlock? And I'm under contract then, so it was like whatever. Why would you want to fight Acho? For something you don't want to fight for. So you're gonna get into this tussle with them

and it's not that serious to you. Now that's just your ego. Or you just scared to really take the challenge of being who you really supposed to be. So in a lot of ways, I think both of them for what they did. Now, the ultimate thanks is going to be in my success in the next endeavor, which I'm in part of now, would never shut up and bring TV, reach TV, etc. But the point of it is, it took me back to my Columbia moment when there were a lot of naysayers.

And there was a lot of crazaysayers, and there was a lot of craziness going on with my decision. And I was like, I'll come back and prove it in success. So I wasn't bitter because they just kind of gave me a jetpack in the way I was going anyway. Oh, but I would say, and I do not underestimate what your life has been because you have learned a lot of things. But I would dare say that the challenge presently in front of you is almost as challenging

as any of the challenges you've had in front of you. Because doing it yourself at this point in your career, because you're a hard demand you must. Yes. It's made easier by the calling, but it's hard. It is beyond heart. And it's like, I'm used to it. And I'm like, why am I back here again? I'm 48 years old, taking on these type of challenges.

Like walking in the weight room, trying to bench press 500 again. You know, I'm back there again. And it's like, why? And I was like, cus, just still game to play. And I still haven't conquered it, like I know I can. And it's crazy, is this gonna sound then? I wasn't the smartest kid, but obviously I was smart.

I wasn't the best football player, but obviously I could ball I wasn't the best football player, but obviously I could ball. Wasn't the best broadcasted, but obviously I could talk. But what I'm on now in terms of impact and trying to help people, I got a chance. That's where my muscles, that's what I've been ultimately designed for. So with that, thankfully I'm not doing this by my damn self. Having a partner, when the contract talks were going on,

I'm talking to all the different outlets out there, everybody, even some of the other majors. I got an opportunity. So John Brink is former sports science host. We partnered in Brink's TV. What that allowed me to have is ownership, equity, something that I can give to my kids. Something that is very important to me

is to not tell my kids that here's your money or find out, figure out who you are without anything of legacy, without anything built into it. So you know how it goes at working at Fox ESPN, which is amazing, but once you're done talking, all you can do is hit kids. This is what daddy say from you, I'll say for you.

And I was like, godly, I want my kids to be a part of a legacy, be part of something of ownership that daddy gave them to start off with, not just, okay, go figure it out, well, what daddy has left over. And it was just a different mind play. It was a different skill set that I knew that I had to start to activate or else.

Frankly, I was gonna take my kids back to the same situation I was in, just dressed up differently. Well, tell me because I'd like the vantage point of what you saw, and if you remember the look in the eyes of your children, when you recognized that what was looking back in their eyes is our dad is fat and happy. Yep. Yep, yep. Yeah, and you know what?

Now let's have some therapy. It takes me back to those challenges I have with my mom. When I'm like, mom, you could do more. And I didn't want my kids to see me in a position where daddy, you could do more. Daddy, you don't care if Dak is top five, top 10, do you? I don't know, I mean, he tops something, got a football feeling his back,

you already got $200 million, you know, like he's top something. And I was just like looking at my kids and looking at my reality and looking at the fact that I have not yet fully flexed my muscles and people don't understand what that means, but you got to know what that feels like. Imagine people are giving you cheers and love and you're like, that's 70% of me, 80% of me.

And I'm like, what if they saw all of me? How would they take that? And that challenge is ever present. You right now, you're building your own company. Tell me, your challenge is like, you had to confront the same moment, the same conversation you had to have, what are those?

I can give you an endless unspooling of challenges that I did not expect that include the idea of having 44 employees and feeling a real and genuine responsibility to build, I don't have kids, to build something for people that I care about, that can exist as a media thing in Miami that the whole thing collapse. Like the whole media shit is, you've seen it.

You've seen how few seats there are. And so in Miami there exists a thing that has, you know, that can have some vibrancy and some love in it. But like the challenges, I can give you a thousand of them, but I don't have a greater one than this. And you've, I've seen it in myself in a couple of times that you've hit the word present, needing to be present. I love my wife. My wife has taught me all of these things. I want to be the best man for her and I want to love her the best that I can. I want to be with her. I want to be

present all the time. I want to be there. Doesn't mean I don't want to work, doesn't mean I don't get identity in my work, doesn't mean like, yeah, like, yes, I'm proud that I've built something that is good, but I wanted to now live in service of me, not me in service of it. Yes. And I don't know how do I entangle that one, because I want to entangle that one. I think the greatest joy is to be able to share this with everybody, all of it, all of it, but with her, like I wanna be with her, she's done all this with me the last three years. Like she knows the battering I'm taking. Yeah, talk about that untangling.

It's that hit home. I ran this simulation because I was trying to untangle it as well. One, I was trying to figure out, do I go forward, do I stop? Do I just accept it as is? This is a lot of mailbox money direct deposits that you're just going, they're going to cease. And in the process of untangling it,

I had a simulation at home. One of the offers for me was to go to New York City. And I was like, all right, do a show in New York City, first things first. I was like, all right, let me run this tray hand plan in my life. Now, I'm not straight hand, right? So I'm like, all right, I have three little ones here.

You could pull off, you could pull off, you could pull off all of the things, straight hand and with real depth. Yes, with Oprah real depth. Yeah, yeah, I meant in terms of his family dynamic, like not marry older kids and the teenagers, whatever it may be, I was like, I'm not that. So I get where he can go cross country every week

during football season. I'm not that, but let's see, I call it the stray hand plan. That's the homie. So I'm like, let me see if I can do it. So literally then the next day after that opportunity was presented, I was like, all right, go downstairs, six o'clock in the morning. My wife wakes up at 4.30 every day, works out, six o'clock in the morning. My wife wakes up at 4.30 every day,

works out by six o'clock. I was like, this time, I'm just a fly on the wall. Three little kids in her, potentially I'll be going all week and then I'll come back home with the money. Let's see how this goes. And at six o'clock, my daughter's tripped on the stairs. Then my boy comes down, he wants breakfast early at six o'clock, my daughters tripped on the stairs. Then my boy comes down, he wants breakfast early

and literally my wife is on her spin bike and then my other daughter is sleep upstairs and I'm like, oh no. And you lifelong overachiever have a mess on your hands that you can't handle. That's too much for you, it's overwhelming. And I'm like, you can't do it. That's like, there's no way I can leave this family,

be present, can't leave this family, leave my wife, leave this and scratch that scab that I have for my oldest, my 24 year old. And once again, not be there in those intimate moments. So what helped me untangle it, as you were talking about your challenge, is I just dropped the rope. And that's when I was like, I'm leaving broadcast media.

I'm still talking, I'm still listening, I'm still going back and forth engaging, but I'm leaving that. I am going to do this on my terms and at least in terms of low cow and make sure I can stay still and do this and be present for my family. Scratch that scab. this and be present for my family. Scratch that scam. I don't know the depths of what you're feeling

there. Do you, do you feel like you, you, you were not ready as a father to be a father when you had to be a father? Oh, no. Compared to me now, that guy, and he was good then, but boy, he's a whole different animal now. But I mean, look, I was 24 in Buffalo playing football, still had seven, eight years to play. By schedule alone, you're not there. By our relationship status, because we broke up, I'm not there. She moved across country. I'm in LA. No matter how much I was there in the summers, and she was here in the summers and breaks and holidays,

it doesn't add up. Because there are a million decisions needed as a parent every single day, and I miss so many of those millions of decisions. So that's the scam. And you know, that's my regret, is that I couldn't make that work where I could be there with her.

And I know that's something, and that's really a telling story of today's society, of so many people in broken homes or both parents not their single family homes. And I just really wanna highlight, not from the parents perspective, because I looked at it that way forever.

Like, oh man, her and I, and then my baby. Think about that kid. How many times they can't call out your name, because you're not there, or they know not to call out your name, because it won't be received well in that same home. Look what that does to a kid with a blank canvas and how it colors it darker than it should be. And that's what I was

like the last thing I want to do is send me a video of MJ and the game. How do you do when I had an opportunity to not do that. And it was tough because I had to give up a lot, but I'm investing in myself. And I think that's going to be my greatest reward. You blame yourself there. Is there shame for you there? Because the standard you have is an exacting one. I don't know how forgiving you are of yourself. Damn, you know me. I'm not forgiving, but I don't blame myself either. It took us both to get to that reality. And we're on great terms now.

We just missed of her 18 years growing up. You add up the days and the moments and they all seem like, you know, they seem like all was always there, but there was a lot that I wasn't, you know, and so I'm regretful of that. But no, I don't blame myself because I've always been a good guy, even when I was in the league and I was just, the love doctor, like those antidotes, all those experiences came from me being so cool that I got to meet everybody in the room,

every girl in the room, like no matter what, like I wouldn't, no one's ever throwing a drink in my face or whatever, it cursed me out, none of that. Well, you navigated us, you navigated both worlds very well, very expertly. Like, I don't, which one do you regard as like stranger, broadcasting or football? Broadcasting by far, by far.

Look, neither one is a meritocracy. We like to say sports is the closest thing we have to it maybe now, but it's loose now, even sports. And certainly broadcast is like untethered. That's almost like, forget it, like whatever. If you know someone, if your agent is someone, so you know someone, so you willing to go there, it's, it's pretty much, uh, triple sevens. Um, I, I, you know how Hollywood, all of this is like your, your take on, on

what the take industry has become is you're looking at it as rotted at the core like, ooh, that's ugly. How Hollywood took that over. And now it's just all professional wrestling. Yeah. Yeah. It totally is. And look, and I was there from Hello, 2008. First meeting, I remember us getting into about this new thing called Twitter. And it's all the executives and all the hosts and all the analysts and we're sitting there and they're like, all right. Okay, this Twitter thing, we gotta be careful with it.

We can't give away all our information. We can't tell them everything what's going to happen on the show, be very protective, be private, but just try to gain audience. And then literally like a year or two later, they're like, okay, tell me a whole show. They'll still come watch. We need both audiences.

I was like, do y'all know which way is up? Do y'all have any projections, any forward thinking? And I was like, all right, whatever. I saw the same thing happen when I was leaving the industry. I literally left ESPN and wanted to go to Fox and wanted to do a radio show. I love radio. I love how you get the intimacy and the response from the audience.

And they were like, nah, just TV. I was, all right. And then my boy kept bugging me, and this is 2018, he's like, dual podcast, dual podcast. At the time, I looked down on podcasts. I was like, what is a podcast? That's where you get old. That's where you get old.

Right, it happens that fast. It happens that fast. You thought you were the cool guy, and you look up and you know, yes, it happens that fast. It's a very competitive, stupid, stupid game, the one of broadcasting. I can't even imagine,

have you met anywhere, you've seen a lot of life. Have you met a less impressive swath of people anywhere in life than television executives? It's unreal. It's unreal. But it's like television executives, movie, producer. It's the same like how are they allowed to run everything?

Yeah, because it's really tough because in football, there's a coordinator who sees the field and has assistance and they're doing all these projections and they're trying to figure out all the strategies and they're like, all right, let's find their tendencies and we can come up with a calculated formula and a tag. But then you get the TV exec, look, I have benefited from this ignorance as well.

Like, we're there, and it's like, yeah, we should try that. And I'm like, wow, that easy. You think you gotta go to Syracuse Media School and get your PhD, and you gotta have all these, the resume, and it's like, no, no, no, I just, it was a nice brunch. And I think what you said makes sense. Let's try it.

And literally, we'll create a show just like that. And it's like, wow. And so I just went through that industry and I was like at the end, the same things that they were saying, no, two, they were saying yes to. And so literally my next deal, they're like, podcasts. You wanna do radio again?

I was like, that was just four years ago. Yeah, well, you are ahead of the game without realizing you were ahead of the game is what happened, right? You didn't understand what was being whispered to you about the profession that yes, you needed a support system in place to grow the person you would become on American cable television and everyone's homes. Like you value that platform. That's that you being maximum you on that platform would educate every day in a way that's necessary now,

not just so you're arguing with somebody across the table, but you're like unswooling real wisdom because people need to hear some shit now that's more meaningful than when, than the God we've been serving for a long time. Yes, that's exactly it. And I still was scared. Even though the universe was whispering to me,

maybe starting to yell, like let's go. You know, Whitlock, leaving in midnight hour, Icho wanting it all and I'm like, okay. And I'm like, this is all pointing in the one direction, but I still don't know. I got little kids here. I got people to feed. I got a life to live.

And then Pat McAfee, I remember being in my driveway. I don't know what day it was. And he had some video where he was giving out a million dollars to everybody. He just signed that fan deal deal. And I was like, he has a, and at that time I never watched his podcast. And I was like, that's a podcast.

And then all of a sudden you start to do your research and I'm going backwards. I'm like, 2017, he couldn't work at ESPN. The same ESPN, I got two jobs at. And he can't get in the door because he's the punter. And now he's coming back with a vengeance to lap everyone in the industry 18 times over? Oh, I got the wrong car.

Like, I can say I'm the bad driver, but I'm gonna say I'm gonna switch cars first and switch lanes and see how I roll. What an amazing thing for you to realize like that. You thought you were ahead of the game, ahead of the game, ahead of the game, and then you turned around and you're like, oh my God, I didn't see that coming at all.

I see that. I all. I see that. I could have built all that. I could have built what Shannon Sharp is building right now. Like I could have built all of that if I had somebody, like I think you could work within the system. You could, you could do the show you wanna do within the system if you just had similarly minded people around you.

I don't know how many of those you encountered along the path. There you go. That's the thing. It's like, Max and I used to always say this is so funny. We were like, we should just throw a camera in here and just go ahead. And this is like 2014, 2013. Just throw a camera here,

because it was like, hilarity all the time. Like you were doing a lot better show than just about anybody in radio because your dynamic was so, I mean, like that, there was nothing. If you would put that on a simulcast every day, real friendship, real brothers, growing up together, learning things about each other and being more vulnerable at microphones

than most men like you are willing to be. Yeah. And that's what we were doing and we had so many funny pair of sins and contrasts. It was like billboards, one's the rapper and one's the national typewriter champion. But he was the rapper. That's right. You're the one who won the typewriter champion. I'm the nerd.

You're the champion who won the typewriting championship. I'm the nerd. You're the champion type. That guess, you guys had the perfect chemistry for spending three hours together laughing. And furthermore, that platform would have been, or it was something, how many people got to know you through that? Know you for real. Know you in ways that Los Angeles never knew you before that

because there's something different about, you're that big-ass voice and everyone is oppressed with his credentials. Everyone knows who and you're extending to max, we are we're peers, we are we are equals. I'm the athlete and you're you're the journalist but we're brothers. Yep and that's how it was man. I mean thankfully it wasn't LA even though we were doing great national numbers and we were a local show, we were keeping up with the big dogs, being home, like everywhere I go to this day,

there's not gonna be a post or video ever of me without someone saying, Maxim ourselves, come back. And you know, max and I have talked about that. It's kinda like, all right, in your back pocket, you know, you got something there, when do you play it, do you play it? So we've had those conversations,

but they have been 30,000 feet up in the air. We have not tried to nail down particulars. And that's part because that's my boy. And it's like, dog, if he and his paying you for another year or so, don't even think about anything else. But think about what's next in that year or so. But do not rush to do something else. Why would you ever?

And so. Oh, but the two of you being able to do anything together with the wisdom you've accrued about like real life shit. I mean, Max, you talked about helping him with his brother's death there. I mean, you can try to help somebody with that. But I've been avoiding people for two months because I don't want anyone

rummaging around too much in that bin right now like some day. Yeah, some day, but at the moment like I It it moved me when you said that you've been there for him in times of and each other in times of crisis Yeah, so you're right now in your stage of grief if you want to label anything as just the distance, the avoidance. Right now, I mean, I can't, it hurts me to admit that because I'm a bit ashamed of it, but it's just I can't, I know I need to hurt in order to heal it. I know I need to feel it in order to heal it. I'm not trying to talk about cycle babble.

I just have never felt anything like this. And I don't know what it is. And I don't know how to manage it or cope with it. It's just, it's a daily weight that you ask me about challenges before and I maintain and we'll maintain that the greatest one is that I want to be present in all the loving moments with my wife. Yeah, because of where where we went through all of this. I'm sorry, this happens, it's been happening too much. It's okay. It's okay, man.

But the one of the challenges has been trying to do this every day, the grind of what this is every day when I'm not quite emotionally in the space where you have to be to do it correctly. Like that's a real difficulty for somebody who's trying to do this well. Mm. Because it's a lot of responsibility. Yeah.

You know, I mean, can't feel or heal for you. I've always challenged this. Tell me, my mother died in 2005. And to this day, I have not dealt with it. My sister dealt with it immediately and still deals with it to this day. She goes to the grave site. I rarely, rarely do. She has my mother's birthday.

She confronts the pain. She looks at pictures. I rarely do. And I will say this because the way I've been able to heal from it is one, I let her death and her live through all things I do. But that's just high, high level thought. In reality, I lived through avoidance. I had gotten to a place where whether it was football, whether it's NFL, college, I wouldn't see my mother for three months, four months, you know, you're away. I'm in New York City and she's in LA. And do you know to this day, the story I tell myself to heal is I'm just a way of school.

I'm just a way of camp. And I'll see her soon. And that used to be two months, three months, four months. Now it's forever. But that's how I deal with it. And it's loosely avoidance of that pain, but I don't know if we're all designed to about face and confront those moments to say. Yeah, I mean, that's why they say everybody greets differently, but I would say it's

one of the few places where I could take some pride in my strength, because even though I've avoided this with others, I haven't with my most intimate partner who makes me feel most loved so that I can carry on the lessons of what my brother taught me, because he wanted me to live a shared joyous life. That's what it's the only way to honor him, but to learn the lessons of that, to love like that risks that you can't avoid the paint. Like there's no, you're telling me, you're like one of the toughest people I've ever heard of, and you're telling me, nah, that one, I figure out ways to rationalize around it because that one's too big for me.

I don't like the mortality in that one. Yep, you heard me loud and clear. And it's only because of this. I other than being a mama's boy and look, I love, I did everything for my mother. I felt cursed for a moment there. You mean to tell me I do all of this and then my mother dies when I'm finally here?

Like she couldn't just enjoy all this work and it coming to fruition right now. And I felt that, but the moment that it really said, it told me that is a weight in the weight room you would never try to live. That is a mount that I'm never gonna put on the bar was my mother at her funeral. And I've never seen this before.

It was the fact that it was time to close the casket. And the pastor comes to me and grabs my hand and says, can you do it? And that toughness kicked in and that put on a spot, I was like, yeah, I can do it. Never even thinking what I was about to do. And having to walk over there and then literally having to close the casket

on my own mother, powerless. Think about it, close it. That means gravity's gonna help you. All you gotta do is touch it. It'll slam, let alone close it. Not couldn't do anything. And I think that a man, let alone close it. I couldn't do anything. And I think that was my, that was my activation to avoidance.

Like, I can't. And I want to, because I know that therapists would say, you should, you need to. But the realest of me is like, something you just can't do. And that's one of them for me. Where else would I find avoidance from you that's self-aware?

Because I don't imagine there are a whole lot of things like that where you're saying I can't do. That's a bridge too far for me. I'm this level of tough over there. That's an emotional landscape. I ain't even, I'm not even gonna touch it. I'm not even gonna try. Yeah, you know what's funny, Dad?

Because of that, because the only thing that scares me is death, that I'm not scared of anything while I'm alive. I'm not scared of anything living. Like, like you put a gun on me. I'm like, oh, don't shoot me. You know, not that. I'm saying, no, don't shoot me. You know, not that. I'm saying

no challenge, no obstacle, no discussion, and that's what's empowered me to just take on all things and really try to write my wrongs and write some of the wrongs that are going to be inherited for this next generation if we don't decode and fix what's in narrative and messaging. So not scared to talk about anything, confront anything, because there's the one thing. Superman can do it all except go to krypton and deal with some kryptonite. And that's my kryptonite.

I'm stunned to hear it from you, honestly, because maybe I shouldn't be, but I had not regarded, I mean, as painful as this is, I had not regarded it as something that someone of your self-awareness and acumen wouldn't force himself and challenge himself to do under the idea that there is growth on the other side of pain.

I know. It works for everything. And I know that that's the same mechanism at play for all of my or everyone's success right behind that obstacle that adversity is that gain, is that success and there's no way, at least in the 18 years so far there's been no way, no thought of even confronting it. Crying? Yes. Of course missing but confronting and when I say that, I mean like deeply swallowing the reality that that was it. No, I take on all other challenges. I think of you as a bit immortal in some of the challenges that you have conquered. I know that might sound like hyperbole to some, but the degree of difficulty on the things that you achieved. I think you're proud of yourself. Even as hard as you may be on yourself, you know that

you conquered some things, correct? But it doesn't, I'm just not sure along the path from the way that you describe it. I might recognize some of this. How much joy you've had along the path because so much of it must have felt like relief, so much of it, and so much of it brought problems that you were not expecting path because so much of it must have felt like relief, so much of it. And so much of it brought problems that you were not expecting that were so much different than the original problems that you thought you'd be inheriting.

Like I understand succumbing to temptations when you're young and a fool and arriving at what everyone else thinks is what you bring you happiness. But I don't know the man who's looking inside himself and saying, I still feel empty here. These things, what everyone else is telling me I should be, I expect something better for myself. Yeah, you know, it's, woo!

Like we're all given this value system, whether you understand it or agree with it or not, it's kind of placed on you, whether it's culturally, to your family relationships, expectations, community, whatever, it's just like these messages, and you just hear them, and it's this outer chorus. And that outer chorus gave me a checklist,

and I checked it, and I was like, who's giving me that? And then I checked that list, and once I checked it, I was like, now where's my list? And my list didn't, it wasn't congruent with that. It was some of that, but not all of that.

And the same guy that wanted to enjoy and did enjoy NFL riches, is the same guy that also wanted to grade papers for fifth graders. And it sounds like you were a bit trapped in a football player's body. Like you had to choose and construct this particular prison to get out of your circumstances, right? Cause football doesn't choose you.

No, no, no, no, you don't choose football. Football chooses you. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, in simple, it was the way out. And I felt so damned that I was as good if not better in the classroom. I was academic de-Cathlete and fourth grade, like just nerdyed up.

And I was like, okay, where's this gonna take me? And they're looking at me like, not, I don't know where, and not as far as that football will. So here you go. And I love football, but I was like, what else? And this is the time where you had to be a rapper, entertainer, or a baller, or good luck, even though we knew education was the key.

And I was like, what? And I was like, once again, do not fight the model, do not fight the beast, right? Get there, get in there, and then change it from the inside. Out. Now, good luck with that. Oh, no. I put it in and put it in a lot of years and real life.

Get out. How the hell are you? Change it from the inside. Out. That's right, man. What the hell are you talking about? I nearly went from Jets Hey, three you're not a fool. What kind of idiot are you?

Changed the television machine from the inside out because of the strength of your voice and I thought I would look We all know real from fake. I was like they got what they see it real They're gonna love it and they were like Yeah, we want lighter. What a fool you are. I admire you so much as a master intellect. No, no, no, no, once again, like McAfee hit me in the back of the head, like, whoa, were you come from?

Same thing with this. It was the real thing. You thought you were going to change the industry with the strength and power of your voice because why wouldn't you, you've already overcome all the other odds. Yeah, that's part of it. And the other part was we all get it,

but we all don't want to get it. And it's weird, like it's just, it's education versus entertainment, it's this edutainment blend that I thought I was gonna be able to strike the perfect balance to do it. I swear I was and I was like, maybe I still will in a different way, but I have to go away because our industry now,

look at the kings and then you look at them with the kings of doing, you're like, can't do that and get what I'm trying to do. So, you know, let them do that. Let me go around, let me pull a McAfee, come back in five years and say, ah-ha, I told you guys, let them do that. Let me go around. Let me pull a McAfee, come back in five years, and say, ah-ha, I told you guys, this is it. And what's the plan for that before we get you out of here?

And I'd like to figure out a way to continue these conversations. So tell the people what it is that you're doing, how it is that they find you, because I will tell them again, you've been an important voice, a neglected voice. I would say, even with the opportunities that you've had, you've been an important voice, a neglected voice. I would say even with the opportunities that you've had, you've been an important voice for a long time and I want people to hear the full wisdom that you have to share now that you seem to be your most balanced adult and happiest self.

Oh, I appreciate it, Dan. So I have a daily show Monday through Friday, never shut up. And that song brings TV, reach TV, and YouTube TV. And I do that daily show every day, really just the intersection of sports, entertainment, and we learn life lessons. So you check me out there at Marcellus Wiley on all socials and it's going so well. The biggest fear is when you leave somewhere,

you're like, well, that the machine or was it me, you know? And to be able to grab audience and come with me and people that rock with me, we've been doing it for eight months. Got 130,000 subscribers. Really excited because I know I'm not the hair. I'm the tortoise, you know? But I always watch that cartoon too. The tortoise will win. So I'm like, all right, I'm not the hair. I'm the tortoise, you know, but I always watch that cartoon. The tortoise will win.

So I'm like, all right, I'm going to win, but I'm going to take it the right approach, the right way and just make sure that I can help as many and as fire as many on the way. So you can check me out there. We're doing amazing. The cup, like you said, it is hard as challenging, but so proud of it. But you're proud of it. Like it's your way.

It's the most complete you trying to do it as the best you in service of you and the things that you believe in. You got there. Yeah. You took the path wasn't what it should have been. It could have been just all supported because you had all of the wisdoms that you need

to have. Yeah. You didn't understand that the hard part was once you get in the machine not getting to the machine. Yes, say it again, man. I did not. I mean, it was a smack in the face. And I was like, wow. And it's so funny because I have so many great relationships with people in the industry, executives included. And they literally text me all the time. This is one thing, I know you get this too. A guy would be on air or at a place, and he'd be like, can't say this on air, but let me hear while you're up, keep going,

say that again. Oh, I agree. But then they have to go on air and do the persona, you know, the song and dance. So. You sound like you're just like legitimately disgusted by it. You sound, you know, you sound, I've been gentle. I've been arguing with Stephen A about this and I don't want to head back into that horn.

It's necessary. There's no need. But I've been having the argument of this could be so much better and so much more impactful. All of it as the platforming. And there is a place to get your nutrients and your funny. It doesn't have to be the cartoonish thing that it is now. Yeah, I'm not a fan of that flavor. I think there are a lot of other attributes

to a Steven A. or to any of those kings up there that are doing amazing. And when they lean into the ones that are just low frequency, just everybody, like right now, I can post for my foundation, projecttransition.org, go there. I can post something for my foundation that is positive, for the community helping out kids, giving out scholarships. I know I can get 50 likes.

You know what I mean? Just a total random number out there. People are like, I know I can get 50 likes. You know what I mean? Just a total random number out there. People are like, oh, I'm boring, whatever. Then I know also, oh, I could go out right now on sunset, take it off, act the fool and get 500,000 likes, you know? And I'm like, okay, so we all know that. That's the formula, right? Why do you keep trying to get 500,000 likes?

Like, why don't you talk about the things that are more important than just the like, the love, the deeper parts? But I get it. Everyone is not the same, so I allow them to do what they do. I'm going to do what I do, and we'll see how this game goes. I respect it. I admire it. I have for a long time. Thank you for spending so much time with us. I appreciate you, Dan. You're the man, brother. for spending so much time with it.

I appreciate you, Dan, you're the man, brother.