The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Metta World Peace

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

Metta World Peace, formerly known as Ron Artest, wants to make the world a better place. Despite his focus on positivity today, Metta explains how his rough upbringing led to an equally rough way of asserting himself. He talks to Dan about his journey managing his anger, about why he used to fight through his troubles, and how therapy helped him learn to express himself differently. Metta reveals what he calls "the worst period" of his life after the infamous "Malice at the Palace" and the depression he had to deal with in the aftermath. He also shares his personal career highlights playing alongside the greats, and his proudest moments giving back to his community since retiring. If that weren't enough, Metta drops a big announcement on his plans to shape the future of our country. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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from $30 for two people, up to $60 for five. So no matter what day of the week, Go's got you covered. Find out more at gotransit.com slash tickets. I'm looking forward to this one. This is one of the most interesting characters to come across the sports landscape over the last 20 years. MetaSandaford Artest. Used to be MetaWorld Peace. Used to be Ron Artec. Thank you for this session of South Beach Sessions, West Coast. I'm really nice to see you in person. Yeah, absolutely. It's good to be here. You know, changed my name to Meta World Peace in 2011. then I got remarried after my first marriage, I took my wife's last name,

but I still go by Medal World Peace. Okay, all right. But, yeah, my wife's last name was Sanderford. And obviously, my other last name was Artes. So she was like, you know, women should have, she said, you know, women should have the right to have their last names be taken. I said, you're right. I agree.

My friend Ricky Williams did the same thing. He did Eric Myron. So I didn't introduce you incorrectly, though. Did I? You did, but, you know, I would rather Meta World Peace. You're a man of many names, though. I know.

For a while, forgive me for forgetting what the panda name was when you were in China, but you changed your name legally there, too. Did you not? No, that was just like a story that kind of took its own legs. People just made up stuff. The Pandas friend actually, my daughter loves Pandas. So she loves Pandas so much. I said, you know what?

I want to be around my kids more. So I'm always trying to find a reason to be around them. So I launched a brand called the Pandas Friend because my daughter loves Pandas. And when the story came out, people said I changed my name to Pandas Friend. Well, but this is the thing with you. There are so many stories out there about you. Lots of stories. So let's start here.

What do you like about your reputation and what don't you like about your reputation? People who haven't met you who are just surmising things based on what they think. I think the great thing about my reputation is being from Queensbridge. You know, the greatest rapper of all time, Nass is from. Queensbridge, Mobb deep, hip hop from MC Shan, Roxanne, Chante, myself. And we also are the biggest federal housing project in America. And when you come from the biggest federal housing project in America, you learn a lot. You're under more scrutiny.

A lot of things that's happening in these communities. When you can make it out because there's so many traps, violence, weapons, drugs, and when you can navigate your way through that, that says a lot. That's the biggest, that's what I love about my career, that I was able, about my life, that I was able to navigate that. Now, on the court, people got a chance to see an emotional side. They got a chance to see that real street side, right? But when people don't really know me, they know me from playing basketball,

they know me from being in survival mode on the court. But nobody really knows me. I got a letter from Princeton, and I say that because in college you get those visits, five visits, right? Every college is sending you letters. You know, my first year, I was averaging a 60. That's a D, my freshman year, a 60. I turned it around my senior, last semester, my senior year, a 95 average, right?

People don't really know me. My first major was architecture. People don't really know me. Right? You see what I'm saying? So they know me from the court, but they really coaches that coach me, general manners, that general manage me, fans, like, you don't really know me. You know, I'm a philanthropist, right?

I'm trying to do big things in that field. And I say that because I want people to get to know me even more. A business owner as well, many businesses. And yeah, and when you think about the businesses I'm involved in, one of our companies is called buildops.com. They just recently raised at a billion valuation. We have a little of investors there. Easy Care Link, a nursing staffing platform that we invested in,

a buttercloth. you know, like a couple of other companies, but the thing is this. In 1999, when we came into the league, we didn't have what they have now. You know, our whole thing was like, ball to you fall, boom, boom, boom, get the bling, all that stuff. That was our life unless you was like a Michael Jordan or a shack, you had your head on your shoulders. You know, the majority of us athletes back then did not. We wasn't thinking about generational wealth, you know, infrastructure planning. We wasn't thinking like that back then.

we had to catch up. So it was so many different things that we've been through as athletes. We're being a business owner today, I never thought in a million years that I would be doing what I'm doing now. Well, when you say, though, that people don't really know you, it's at least in part because you're not the same person now that you were 20 years ago. You may have some of the same core things, but we all saw your growth. We saw you're winning the championship,

and the first thing you're doing is bringing attention to mental health by saying, I want to thank specifically my therapist for all the help that I've gotten in this realm. Like you, over the years we've seen the tough guy become something that was willing publicly to be more vulnerable, to be softer, and to talk about things that usually athletes don't talk about or hadn't before you. Yeah, we all have a perception, right? So at a tough guy, things that made me tough, I wish I didn't have to go through. Like playing basketball in Far Rockaway as a 12-year-old in Hamill's projects, and at the free-thel line, my friend getting hit over the head with an old E-40-ounce bottle

because we were playing hard in someone else's neighborhood. Or to having to travel to a game, you know, somewhere and having to put the ratchets in your bag. Just to make sure that nothing goes down. Like, the stuff that made me tough that people loved is not what I would want for myself or my son or my children. You know, I wish I did not have to be tough. You know, I wish I could have just been vulnerable the whole time. But I had to because of these different circumstances in the city.

You know, when you come from the biggest federal housing project in America, yeah, you got some protection because you're a baller. But at the same time, you become friends with different people. And when things happen to your friends, you're going to make a decision now. You end or you're out. How are you going to navigate that? So the things that made me tough and fearless is things that I wish I did not have to go through. Were you indeed fearless because I've, the stories of you losing teeth, someone elbows you and you don't care.

The stories of, you know, somebody breaking a table leg at a game that you're at and killing some. I wasn't at that game, but my friend, yeah, he died about, yeah. The stories are crazy and they're all, they're all pretty terrible. Right, right, right. And you're sitting here looking back on them and saying, yeah, they made me tough, but I wish I could have been vulnerable the whole time. Yeah, I wish, right. wish I didn't have to go through that. I wish, you know, before I went to college, my brother didn't do 10 years in jail for drug trafficking before I go to St. John's. I wish Lloyd Newton didn't have to die

on a basketball court because we were winning the game and table leg goes through his heart. I wish. I wish Kenny Edo didn't get shot in his growing when he was playing with Lloyd Daniels and Rod Strickland at O'Kill Academy and could have went to pro, right? But those things that made me tough, like I said, is not who I wanted to, not the persona I wanted to show out there. The persona is really, you know, outside of basketball. With basketball, I'm in survival mode. Right? When I was playing, I'm in survival mode.

I don't know nothing else. So now you're going to get the, you're going to get whoever that is. You're going to get my best emotionally. And people loved it. But for a game that I loved, I was also detrimental. I also self-sabotage. So it was like things that I couldn't really control. I could control, but I didn't know how to control them, you know, if that made sense.

So when I retired, I was able to decompress. I was able to like take some, you know, reflect, decompress, and then get back to things that I always wanted to do. Let's talk about the entirety of the path, going back to the very beginning. How were things before 13 years old? Because some things happened at 13 that obviously were very hard. but before you became 13 years old, like, do you remember a childhood that was carefree? Did it have?

How did you get to fearless? You know, like, I think, so when you take it back to my dad, my dad's from Philly, so I always tell people, yeah, I grew up in Queensbridge, but I'm a Philly guy. My dad from Philly. My dad also recorded professionally 2-1. He's a 2-1 boxer.

And came in New York through a U-Haul. I don't want to tell that story, but he came in the whole story. Got to New York. And, you know, I met my mom, stopped boxing. I would, you know, then he had me. He had to provide for me. You know, I think as early as six, I remember being in the trenches.

I was suspended in preschool, kindergarten, first grade, all the way to 12th grade. Even in La Salle Academy, I got suspended my first year. And so for me, it was always some type of trigger. And these triggers were normal to us, natural. If you were in our neighborhood, you got to get in. to a scuffle, you got to fight it out. You might get bullied one time. You got to, maybe you're on the other side.

You're being bullied. You get tired of it. You know, so I can't remember a year where that toughness wasn't growing. You know, in the 80s, that's when the crack epidemic hit. And I didn't know that's what, I didn't know that was the error we were going through

until you see the documentaries on it. And we was in the heart of the city with the biggest, everything moving through our neighborhood. So from that perspective, we had foreign, we had outsiders coming into our neighborhood trying to set up shop. And as they were setting up shop, then our neighborhood got tired of it, then we had to push them out by way of activity. And we had to get to back control of our neighborhood. You know, not us. I was young. The older folks had to get back control over our

neighborhood. You know, so it's like that type of stuff. So I can't really remember a time where we wasn't on our P's and cues. So suspended every year for what? Just fights? Fights. Mostly fights. I remember one kid jumped in front of me on the lunch line and I punched him in his face. You know, I would say that's second grade. Like how do you develop that type of lack, low tolerance? You know, and I look at people that's hungry. You know, being hungry in one split second, you can make the wrong decision. You can get divorced. You can get a bad argument with you. your wife, oh, it's over, and you didn't eat breakfast. That's a real thing. Hunger, right? And you don't have the five seconds or the five minutes to say, hold on, let me think about this. But and you're

surrounded by the kind of poverty that is actual hunger all the time. And it's like, it's not like Africa hunger or Honduras hunger. American hunger is a little bit different. We do have homelessness and hunger here in America for sure. But it's not as bad as third world countries, you know, but hunger is hunger to the human body. The human body don't know where you're at. It's just knows you need to eat, you're stressed today. Oh, you're a little upset. You might want to breathe. This is all happening subconsciously. So that's why people would be like, oh man, I wish I would have never committed that crime. They're getting in front of the judge. Oh, man, I wish I would have never did that. I wonder how many of those people were actually didn't eat breakfast.

You know, it's a silly inquiry, but I'm really interested in how many people before they committed something that got them in jail didn't have breakfast. What would you guess if you had to guess, how many times were you getting into fights? Like if you had to put a number on fights until, you know, your teen years, what are we looking at? Well, you know, maybe like three a year, you know, maybe more sometimes. But some of it could just be talking, arguing back and forth. But not afraid of fights, right? From an early age, not afraid of them?

Your dad's a box. Some of them I was afraid of. Some of them I was afraid of because maybe that guy is bigger. Maybe I'm tall, but I'm not as older as this. at these people. You know, I recall a couple times being older, being tall, but being bullied, right? And I couldn't quite, like, get off because he's got a little older. So at some point in time, you say, okay, like never again.

And when you say never again, that's to everyone, right? That's like, it don't matter where you're at, who you are, how much you're worth. I take that approach to everybody. And it's because, like, you just don't know where it's coming from. Right? So now, you're like, you know, if you bother me, I'm going to go at you. If you bother me, I'm going to let you. I'm not going to let you.

I'm not going to let you bully me. That's just how I am. And sometimes that's just not the way to move forward in life. You can't move forward with, like, making logical decisions. Like, you know, I want to do business. I want to partner with you. I'm thinking, like, you go, I'm thinking you're against me day one. And that's not the way to move forward in life.

Did you have a temper problem? For sure. Absolutely. I think the temporal problem was, yeah, I think it was more like not identifying when the threshold is like max and capped out. Also, not really, not being logical or even some issues was not as serious as I made them out to be. And just not being able to identify those issues, not being able, you know, everything is, winning, losing is not everything. just because you lose a game doesn't mean it is the end of life

right and different things like that what perspective would you have as a child who's getting into fights who's surrounded by perpetual turmoil right right right right right your normal is not normal for a child it's not normal for a child but and then Franfashilla said something

a long time where he said meta his passion is his gift and his curse you know because what got us all these wins and AAU and 15 years old and Menaceink and UDC in New York and, you know, it was that fire and people loved it. And tough and greater defense. Great a defense and now can play a little offense and we're winning and it doesn't matter

that this kid is out of control. You see the kid, like, for example, Rick Carlisle, I respect Rick Carlisle a lot to this day because he always called you out. He never was like, he never let nothing slide. And it was annoying at times, right? Like, oh, Rick got it say so again. Oh, boy. Just let it slide.

He would not. Some coaches would. You know, so you remember those things and you appreciate, you know, coaches that didn't let things slide. So I thought your life got bad at 13. I'm wrong about that. Oh, it was early. The reason I thought was bad at 13 is because your parents separate and there's an electrical fire in your house. And so instead of, what is it, 14 or 15 people living in a two or three bedroom house, now it's everyone.

Yeah. So I thought that. Everyone in a one bedroom apartment. So take us back there. It was the time so my mom and dad separated at 13. They was having problems before that. And I think, you know, they didn't have a reference point on the good relationships also. As I talked to my therapist about that.

So then it made me feel more empathy and sympathy for my parents because we didn't know. We just thought, oh, they separated. They don't love each other. And we were hurt. But as you find out about their life story, you're like, man, I feel kind of bad for my parents. you know and now I understand my parents that is a great gift from therapy you know what I'm saying

to find the forgiveness yes the compassion yes so that you don't blame them for everything naturally as human right be like oh my parents did this but you don't know what your parents was once 15 years old too who know do you know what your parents were going through when they were 12 and 10

if they were starving if they had to be or were they homeless who knows nights when they were crying did they have anybody about a shoulder to lay no we just don't know right and they and they bring us into this world to make a difference you know and they sacrifice their body women's sacrificing their body their bodies change you know and we don't take that in consideration so what is the chaos of of this this living arrangement is it really 15 people like 17 in one bedroom yeah it was fun actually you don't realize you're going through it when you're there

it's like oh okay we got to put beds we can't put beds up because if we put the beds up in the room there's no room. So we got to put mattresses in the live room. We're going to put a twin mattress in the kitchen. We're going to put one here. And we're going to put every bed is on the floor. As kids in 1993, we're like, oh, wow, the lights is off. We were playing tag, we're in little kid games.

We had a blast. That was probably the best time we had. I remember that time, and it was the most fun because we're all together, you know, versus like, you know, being in a three-bedroom, which is still crowded. we didn't have that contact all the time. Were you in any way prepared in any way for professional basketball, for the transition into the life of professional basketball coming from the things you came from? I had opportunities to be prepared.

Like I had Mr. Ernest Lodge who has a not-so-positive story out there, but for me, he paid for me to go to high school. and we were moving as professional athletes as 13 years old, 14 years old as professional athletes. So I was prepared in many different ways. He also introduced me to one of my agents who are friends now. I wasn't with him the whole time.

And then I also had finance people from Wall Street. But when somebody from Wall Street is telling you as a 17-year-old kid, you know, I'm coming straight from Queensbridge, right? Now I'm going to work at Wall Street because I had a job. and when somebody's telling you, oh, here's how you work stocks and here how you do this.

Now, my major was going to be architecture. I knew that. But I was only major in architecture to build community centers. It wasn't to be a businessman. It wasn't to understand ends and outs, you know, and all the stuff. It was only to build community centers.

So, yes, I had opportunities to be prepared, but my mind was always in the streets. You know, my mind didn't get out the streets until I was like 24, maybe 25. Well, you've told the stories of you would drive back all the time just to feel what? The comforts of home? You're driving. What kind of drives are you making from professional basketball back home to the projects because that feels like home?

Well, the first thing I got to Chicago. I get drafted to Chicago. Now, I'm around like police officers. and we associate police officers were like, hey, you don't come out right now, right? That type of stuff. So I was never comfortable around that many officers in my life. So now I'm like, hey, friends, I'm around police, so, you know, don't come around me. You know what I'm saying?

That was one piece. And then so I couldn't wait to get out away from police. Secondly, you know, the first thing I did in Chicago was I went to Robert Tittler and Cabrini Green, you know, because that was the hood, 79 for Holster. And so I would go hang out in those areas just to be around people from the streets. And they all love mob deep. And they all knew I was from Queensville. So I was able to go into these different areas and just like vibe. When I was doing that a little too much in Chicago, I didn't even realize where I was at now that I know about.

Chicago, I'm like, whoa, what was I thinking? You're going, as a member of the Chicago Bulls, you're going into the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, not to, not to show off or do anything, but just to, like, be a part of the community that I know, which is the streets. but then I would drive back to, I would drive back on Fridays, go back to, you know, New York, Queens Bridge, and it took me like 14 hours to drive, sometimes 16 hours, stay, you know, hang out, go back on the block and leave in 24 hours or 36 hours, sometimes leaving 18 hours, drive back to Chicago, you know, and go to, you know, move on. So what was the calling there? What was called, what is calling you when you say, from the streets

and what is it? Is it because your life had gotten to a place with fame, with money, that felt less authentic or less comfortable? What's calling you back home or calling you to the south side for that matter? I mean, you know, I haven't got this famous line,

no matter how much loot I get, I'm staying in the projects. Like, you know, for me, I really took that to heart. You know, I was really that. Like, I wasn't a gangster by no means. But you don't have to be a gangster

to be considered one of the, the realist in your neighborhood, it's things you do. So for me, you know, it was just never wanting to turn my back, you know. And I always told myself, I'm never going to turn my back on the streets. Now, I think you've got to be a little selfish in life. Because if you put yourself in position, how do you stay in position? You know, being at my mom, like, my mom is so philanthropic. Will I have a pot of rice?

for the family. If one of my friends was hungry, twin or annoyed or somebody, their mama do the same thing. We would have to share that rice. We were sharing our corn, we're sharing everything. We got to share. And that's how my mom was.

That doesn't prepare you for like generational wealth planning, right? Because now you go to the NBA, you're doing the same thing. Oh, you need something? You need something? It's not that we were without our policy. We're taking care of people. And some people got it, they see it. differently. What we're doing is what my mom did. You know, we'll do it. We'll do it for anybody.

Black, white, Latino, it don't even matter because that's how my mom raised us. If you got, you help. But there's a way to structure that. W2's 513. It's ways to structure, you know, reaching out and helping others. You know, so, you know, it's a gift. It's like it says, the gift in the curse. There's a lot of positives that come with wanting to stay authentic. But there are also some things that doesn't really help in athletes, generational wealth planning, especially. Luckily for me, I was able to create and learn, absorb, and create family office from scratch, with my own hands.

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Minimum odds minus 500. Prizes, either bonus bets that expire in seven days or single-use profit boost. See official rules at D. DKNG.com slash live millions for entry period and free method of entry. Sponsored by Crown Gaming Inc. When you look at the first, let's say, 15 years of your life, what are the things you say are the most responsible for shaping the person who is right here? I definitely got to accredited to my mom and dad who put me in a psychology session.

I was 13 years old, and they put me into counseling. At 13, they said, you know, my mom was like, boy, you need help. And that was the best thing that ever happened to me. I remember my first session. It was on a dime block. We called it the dime block in Queensbridge. But one building, it was all apartments, but a couple of the buildings had offices and different things. There was a counseling spot right across the street from Knows Block.

And in that setting, in that class or that session, you had people with autism, maybe cases of schizophrenia. There's all young, though, all the, they're. I had a temper. Everybody had different issues. Maybe somebody had physical disability. And I remember the counselor, the white gentleman, I got a picture. I forgot his name, but I got his picture.

My mom got his picture still to this day. And, you know, we would have popcorn. We would cross Vernon, go to River Park. Long Island City is different now. You know, we would just sit down and talk. He was just counseling us. That shaped me, because now you can see how it was. one of the only athletes to be like, oh, I want to think my psychiatrist.

That felt normal to me. People was like, man, you're crazy. You just thank your psychiatrist on TV. I'm like, yeah. My psychiatrist helped me out. I'm thankful. Why would I not thank her? But she wasn't my psychiatrist.

And the thing about that, so she was my psychologist. She called me the next day. Corrected you. And she said, I'm not a psychiatrist. But the reason I didn't correct it, because, you know, if you say you're on psychiatry and you're taking medicine and sports, oh, he's crazy. He's on medication. but the reason I didn't say, oh, she's my psychologist,

was because I thought that was even a bigger statement to make sure people have the courage. If you've got to help yourself, do it. No, don't back away. Oh, she's not my psychiatrist. She's my psychologist. I don't take medicine. I actually doubled down on it.

But, you know, for people, it was not an MD medical doctor. Why is the counselor reaching you, though? Is it someone who cares? Is it someone who's listening to your, feelings? Yes, yes, yes, yes. You can't always talk to your parents. If your parents, like, I got a one-year-old right now, 22-year gap, right? And I want to make more babies, right? So, the way I raised my one-year-old is different how I raised my 28-year-old, you know, because what we were taught. So if your parents are, they don't have a reference point, and you see how babies

are being raised, you know, some of these practices are not the best practices. You know, you've got to listen. I didn't know that children or toddlers, infants were as smart as they are. They just can't talk, but they're absorbing every bit of information. You know, so, you know, when you think about it like that, you know, even as a parent, even as a new parent, it's like we got to listen to these toddlers and how we raise them. That's the, that's the output they're given to the world. You know, as we let them roam free to make a change, or not even to make a change. to add value to this world. But this was an adult who was listening to your feelings.

And when your mom is saying to you, you've got problems, kid, it's not just the fighting, right? It was a temper. It was all that's all I had. I was always ready to fight. I did get into too many fights. Have you examined the roots of what was happening now

as an adult to the child temper? It was seeing too many fights. If you see how someone reacts, Like if I teach my child how to potty train my child, you know, we had an issue, I got a documentary out with a gentleman called Lake the Kid. Well, he was introduced to the street life at 12. You know, so depending on what you're learning, that's who you're going to be. Right. So if I see people react only with fighting or, oh, you want beef, bong, right?

Oh, wow. I was just playing basketball. And this guy just got shot. And now what side are you going to be on? If you're in that situation, if somebody pulls something out on you, are you going to run? If somebody attacks you, are you going to go reach for something? Because it's all you learn, right?

And so that's the thing about when a toddler, a teenager is learning different habits. They're learning in real time, and they're going to implement it in real time. So for me, you know, the counselor is, listening to me, like, I want to be a math teacher. I wanted to be a math teacher. That was my goal. You know, I always wanted to be a junior high school math teacher. And as I was preparing for that, not even pro. Things was getting in the way. And he was able to keep me straight, right? And then, so that's just having somebody to talk to about my own goals in this life, not my parents, mine own, my own goals. So just having somebody to vent to was great. Do you remember what it is

that you were feeling or the feeling that you got from fighting? Was there a satisfaction in it? Was there a release? No, definitely no satisfaction. It was probably more like, because I never started a fight. I never said, hey, let's fight. That was definitely not it.

I probably say, hey, let's go play some basketball. Let's go play some tag, some Manhunt. Manhunt is an aggressive game of tag. But, you know, it was more like just protecting myself. or being insecure. Like, maybe I don't want to fight. Maybe I don't want to get punched in my face. And I'm so afraid to fill that pain, I got to fight.

I got to go at you now. I don't want to get hit. Because I know you're going to hit me. But if you're not starting them, if you're getting into fights, but you're not the one starting them, why is mom saying you've got a problem? Well, yeah, I wasn't starting. For example, kids skipped me on a lunch line. And a big fight happened.

PS-122. A Greek school And Astoria Queens Dip Maras Boulevard You know like How does that You know Somebody's skipping you in the lunch line

How does that merit A punch in the face You know It really doesn't That's where you tell the teacher Now if the teacher's gonna listen to you or not Get back in line Oh okay I'll get back in line

But I'm really upset that he's skipped me You know Or you just handle it yourself Right And sometimes when things get out of hand in your neighborhood, you only got a split second to react. You know, either you're going to get punched in your face or you're not. So now everything is magnified.

Oh, he touched me, fight. Oh, he wanted to fight. Oh, let's do it after school. You're not thinking about, oh, hold on. You know, I'd rather be a friend or we could talk about this. Did it serve you later on, though, to have this as a reputation, though, someone who was not to be trifled? No, I don't really like it.

I like the, I like the, there's certain parts of faillessness that I like, but certain parts I'm like, I don't even care about, honestly. It's not important in my life. Right now, I'm trying to add value. I'm not trying to make a change. I'm trying to add value to this incredible world. We live in, with the exception of when things bad happens,

but this world is great, the air is free, the beach is right here on San Monica. Trees is that rig. I mean, I'm going to add value. I want to add value. So my mind is not even there anymore. You're a fun positive person, correct? That's what you're either are or aspiring to. Oh, 100. I think, I think a part of me is, and that part was at as pure as form when I was younger. And it was great to be able to tap back into that. You know, it's great to be able to tap back into that. And some people see me on the streets, man, you were a tough player. And I'm like, But I got to acknowledge it because they love it.

The fans, they love how I play defense. It's such an interesting thing to hear you say that because I think it's a reputation most people would want, but the way that you had to earn it, you're like, ah. Yeah, I wish I didn't have to earn it. I wish, you know, sometimes I wish I didn't experience certain things and just had a different perspective in life because of the things that made me hustle and, you know, don't get tired.

You know, being able to play defense and offense, like I play, I mean, I don't know. You got to imagine I was tired. Yeah, I was. You know, lock somebody up. Plays coming to me on the other end. Not even today athletes is not doing that. Name an athlete that was the go-to guy on defense and offense.

Probably a couple of them. But I'm thinking if I go to most athletes and say, hey, you were regarded as tough. That's almost universally embraced. Yeah, it is universally. But you know what it took to get there. And you're like, I don't think anybody would have wanted. You know what? I like the Tim Duncan approach. Tim Duncan is tough.

Some people don't even know how strong Tim Duncan is because he don't really show it. Tim Duncan is, you know, ox, rhinos, strong. But he's never going to use it in a way we'll get out of here, a young fellow, or let's fight. Or he's not going to bully you with it. He's going to play basketball and dominate and go home quietly where people are not even talking about him as one of the top 10 players ever because he's so quiet. But if you play it against Tim Duncan, you quickly find out he's a huge problem. And that is the way to use your mind in sports. Oh, so I see.

So you would like it. You'd like the reputation better if perhaps you were viewed as, whether it's the architecture guy building community centers or the math student, if people were actually appreciating what it is that went into you being that good defensively, which takes more than just toughness. I mean, that's actually, that's a good point. I wasn't thinking about it like that. But yes.

Yes to that, absolutely, because it wasn't just rah, right, right. It was definitely a lot of math when I was playing basketball. Well, you had to be cerebral. You had to be. Yeah, definitely. Like, that's not just all will. That's not will. That's not just all will and passion.

That's part of it. But I would imagine that you'd want some of the credit for the parts of your game that were studied and sophisticated. as well. Yeah, being able to learn a triangle in a month. We know how long it took people. Some people never learned a triangle. Fans was frustrated.

So that part came from my math background. Just, you know, I've always used math and angles to perform. You know, I was 260. These guys is 220 I'm chasing. Even if my weight is going this way, 260, his weight is going out. We are 215. When we shift, it's going to be.

take me a split second to get back. Well, how was I able to stay in front of certain guys? That's all angles and strategy and different things like that. You know, being able to move my feet, cutting off angles. Some people were harder, like a Rich Hamilton. A little bit harder, you know. He's a lot of endurance. You know, but yeah, it was definitely not just like all toughness. When did you feel like you got a or started to get a grip on the temper, on the anger, some control over it, so that, so that you could be doing things that were more in line with who it is that you want to present to the public? Absolutely.

Who you want to present to the public? I know, right? Some things you want to do in private and some things you want to present to the public, right? And it's so true. If I'm home, I'm going to talk street slang. I'm going back to Queensville. Hey, what up, down? If I'm in the public, yeah, I could, yeah, but I'd rather, we all have dreams as kids,

the American dream, which is lost. We've got to get the American dream back. We all have these American dream when we're kids, whether you're poor or rich. You know, and I think, what was your first part of the question? When did you get a harness on the anger? Oh, yeah. At what age or what time period were you looking at where you got a little more control over? I think 27.

It happened in Sacramento. It happened in Sacramento. I just finished my mandated sessions. I got an issue with my ex-wife, who's a really great friend, and happy that she has three of my children. Couldn't have picked it with anybody better. And so I had mandated sessions. After those sessions in Sacramento,

I was like, man, I feel really good. Because the sessions I had in Indiana, those sessions started in Chicago. But I wasn't ready to let people know I need help. I'm like, no, I can handle it. Right. So Indiana, I was starting to transition. Then I left Indiana, went to Sacramento,

went through the brawl, I was just depressed. At the end of that period, at 27, and then next year I went to Houston. So I carried over those sessions to Houston. And these sessions was, I picked these now. I said, I wanted to continue it. At that point in time, I knew I turned the corner.

One thing I didn't want to do, because I knew I had this persona of, you know, world peace helping people. But one thing I didn't want to do was do that too fast. Imagine after the brawl, I come on. in a suit. Hey, how's everybody doing today? I'm in a suit. I love you guys. When the brawl happened, something told me not to do that. Don't wear a suit matter. You're not going to be authentic. No one's going to believe you. I say, I'm going to let that happen like gradually over time every day. And it took me from 2004, you know. You didn't want to

get out there immediately as if you've been changed or contrite or just scrubbed clean by Right. This brawl has humbled me and now I'm going to be out here and be a totally different person to the public because I'm going to be in corporate public relations mode. I wanted to happen gradually. I wasn't ready. I wasn't interested in you changing your opinion on me right away. Even though I was probably hurt by some of these opinions coming at me from millions of fans and hundreds of media. You know, I have a unique experience from that perspective. But I also said, weather the storm, still be vulnerable. Still let people inside your life. And then gradually you can show who you are on a philanthropic side. And then your life is your life. So I accepted that my life is my life, but I also accepted that I'm doing something even bigger now.

Do you think that media and fans are worse today? The media is better today when we first got it. If I came out and said I need a help, I take a medicine, whatever, you know, back in 1999, whatever. Media was more like, you're weak. This guy is weak. Get them off your team. And the fact is back then in the locker room, a lot of things were suppressed.

Things people didn't see. People were depressed. They didn't know how to manage money, how to grow, what to do. Should I get entertainment? Should I start rap? What should I do? People had no, a lot of players, they didn't have a understanding. Now, luckily, in the NBA, those problems can be mass because you can get 100 minutes.

dollar coaches contract. You can get a $20 million general manager. Like you didn't set up a, you know, create a startup. That's just, you're in this business. So, you know, some people lucked out. But not everybody lucked out. When you talk about the time of depression after the brawl, that's because it feels like the world has fallen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the worst part of my, was the worst time of my life ever. And how long did that last? That was, oh boy, my goodness, that was That was a good four years, three years, you know, because I was becoming great. Like if you look at that season, we know who was in the league in 2004. You can just look them up.

And we know, you know, Larry Bird even said I was top ten. And you can look up by stats from when I got defense player the year, averageing 18 points. One of the go-to guys. Reggie and Jermaine was the guys. But I was emerging. The next year I come back averaging, 24. That's six points difference. At that point in time, maybe Kobe was averaging 27, 28. But nobody was, you know, nobody was just averaging that much. Man, I was a hell of a player.

You know, nine games in, okay, great. Maybe my average drops to 22. Maybe it goes to 25. You know what I'm saying? So at that point in time, when the brawl happened, I'm like, damn it. Because it's a game of inches. My whole life predicated on inches. Why do I run so much in a summertime. I need to be an inch better from a cardio perspective than my opponent so I can wear my opponent down. You know, to be in position to be third team all NBA, I could have easily been on the fourth team, which is no team. You see, I'm saying. So for me, that was a huge mistake on my part. And then also, it was a huge black, it was a huge black guy to my career. even if the gentleman started it like I didn't have a wand that said okay now throw a bear on me cameras is positioned here now go throw the beer I did not tell that gentleman to throw beer that was his choice and he were friends today actually is that John Green are you you friends with him today the guy yes since 2008 2007 that's a nice turn to that story I wouldn't have expected you are friends with the fan who threw a beer at you even though I've heard you say that it's a

if anyone throws a beer at you, that's pretty much the way that that one's going to go. Yeah, I mean, yeah, to this day, like nobody's going to let it. You can't set that tone away. If somebody throws something at you. No, you can't just let that slide. People ask me that silly question all the time. What would you do today and somebody throw a beer in your face? Oh, you know what?

I am going to turn the cheek. No, I'm not. Don't throw nothing in anyone's face. It's wrong. But you're friends with him? I'm friends with him, yeah. Okay. So that took a positive turn at the end.

Took a great turn because we was able to understand each other. Me and him are the only ones that understand that moment. I understood what he was going through. He was going through AA meetings. You know, it was a $50 bet. So the reason he got, the reason that happened because his friend, who everybody said I hit the wrong guy, I think his name was Ryan something.

Well, Ryan bet John that John, you cannot hit Ron, test, I bet you $50. Well, when I got hit, we saw Ryan go like this. And when Ryan raised his hand, I'm on a table looking that way. I said, oh, this dude just hit me because there was no game. This is a five-minute break. A horrible job by the rest, by the way. It was supposed to be tech ejection.

You're ejected. Nobody got ejected still to this day. I deserve an ejection. You got a 68 game suspension or was it 80? It was 82, 82, 82. Plus the playoffs. A lot of money. every deal next day every deal's gone um money stopped but you know the gentleman i bet 50 dollars

you know he was um he bet for the dollars he was excited because they oh wow you really did it and when he saw me running at him you'll see his face changed like oh so that whole thing was like but when i was 27 i was so stressed still i said you know i'm gonna reach out to this guy because i just you know so i reached out to him and it really took a whole weight off my shoulders Tell me more about this. How long after this? So you've been depressed for how long as you are swirling in? I've ruined my life.

I've ruined my reputation. Yeah. And you feel the need to reach out to him? Yes. Yeah, it was bothering me. Because it was like, because initially I'm ready to fight. Like, one, I lost all my money and I didn't even get a solid. I didn't even connect.

I got hit on top of that. And then I got a jump. on the court by two of other fans that tried to sue me for jumping me. This is unbelievable, right? So the first year, I come back to Indiana. Indiana was very supportive, by the way. Indiana is the greatest organization in the world.

Sorry, I know, Lakers, I love you. I've been to a different experience for Indiana, right? But I was so worried that season. I was so scared to go back to Detroit. I'm not going to lie. I was so scared to go back to Detroit, especially in Indiana uniform. I was thinking about it.

Then I started requesting trades and all. My mind wasn't there. I got traded, go to Sacramento. I told Adelman, who's a great friend, spoke to him. A couple months ago, I said, coach, I'm about to retire. Please don't play me. I say, I can't make a big deal out of this because if I make a big deal, then media is going to start coming at me again.

I said, so if you can just bring me off the bench and slowly move me to the end of the bench. he said Ron No He said we're going to go as far as you take us And that changed me right there I was 273 pounds I go from 248

I was 273 I had to work my way back in the shape Right That kind of changed me right there And then I started to love the game again Playing well in Sacramento Even though they Fire Rick Adelman

After I take him to the playoffs He was in the last place You were so happy that you offered to give your entire salary so that Bonzie Wells would stay there. For sure, I would have gave my salary to Bonzie. You know, like, I didn't know he was, I didn't know that's what he wanted. You want, just like six million? Just take mine.

Don't leave us. But that's because you were that happy again playing basketball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Been a minute. Yeah, been a minute. I'm not, I don't, I don't wear a jewelry. You know what I mean? So, you know, I'm not, I don't have, you know, I'm not a high-maintenance guy.

You know, so it don't matter. Give it to Bonzie, please. I mean, we almost beat the Spurs, took him to game six. And then, so, you know, when that happens, you know, when I was like 27, I guess, or maybe 28, something happened at that time. I said, you know, let me reach out to John. So I went on Twitter. I put John Green's picture up.

I said, anybody can find me this guy? I'm going to take you to lunch. I pulled that tweet down because I'm like, hold on, people going to think I'm trying to fight John. So when I pulled it down, no, sorry, the first time I put his name, if anybody could find me, I'll take her to lunch. I pulled that tweet down. People thought you were threatening. Yeah, threatening.

So I said, if anybody could find me, this guy, I'll take you to lunch. And this one fan hit me back. He said, I know what this is. This is John Green. I'mma find him for you. He sent me his number. I called the phone and it said, oh, he said, this is the Green residence. Our number has changed, you know, back in the day your number changed,

and they tell you the number. You know, they still tell you the number. So I got the number. I called that number. and his wife picks up. I say, hey, I'm Ms. Green. This is Ron Autess. I want to speak to John. She says, get the F out of here.

Stop playing on my line. I said, no, I'm telling you, this is Ronanette's. And I said, I would like to explain to you first why I would like to speak to your husband. I said, I think we can make a big change in this world. Because people are trying to also make that a race war, which I don't do that type stuff. right so another reason you know why I didn't say a lot because I seen people just trying to find a reason to make it a race war this is a problem between two men so I told us I think me and your husband can go on a tour speak to kids and let people know when you have confrontation you can work it out and I thought we could use that opportunity to really stop like gun violence and different things because me and him had the biggest problem at least people think it's like oh it's the biggest fight in the history of America

If that's the case, oh, let's come together and make a big, big change. And that was your idea, no help with that? That was just something that was gnawing at you. You didn't like how it felt to you to have what there? An unclosed loop? Yeah, unclosed loop.

Like maybe I don't like certain people, but it doesn't mean, or maybe certain people don't like me, but it doesn't mean like I don't like you. Right? Some people are, you know, this guy's a bad guy and paint that picture for everyone. right, for everyone to see. And it's not the fans that I have problems.

Individuals I have problems with. I don't have problems with groups of people, ethnicities. I have problems with individuals. You know what I mean? So, you know, from that perspective, I thought that me and him, you know, could make a big impact and different things like that. At Medcan, we know that life's greatest moments

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acetaminophen and get long-lasting dual-action pain relief for up to eight hours. Tackle your tough pain two ways with Advil plus acetaminopin. Advil, the official pain relief partner of the NFL. Ask your pharmacist at this product's rate for you. Always read and follow the label. What would you say if I asked you any time in your life the most joy you had with basketball, the happiest you were with basketball, not necessarily just winning the championship. Obviously, that feels good. But when you're talking about an eight-seated Sacramento team, and you're willing to give up your salary just because it feels so good to not be depressed

anymore, to have a whole to love basketball again. Well, that AC team, by the way, when I got the Sacramento in January, we were in 11th place. I said we was going to go to the playoffs. Media, not all media, but a lot of media laughed, no way. We went to the playoffs. You know, he was the best team. He had the best record in the West. That's how good I was back to.

You know, but what was the first part of your question? The happiest period of basketball. It could be any time. Could be St. John's. Can be when you were a kid. Just what you recall as the most joyous time playing. I miss CYO. Like in New York City, Catholic youth athletically.

Catholic Youth Organization. Those years, being 8 years old, 10 years old, the Catholic youth organization is one of the best things that happened in New York City. It created so many pros. Malloy, Kenny Anderson, Kenny Smith, Chris Mullin. The list goes on and on. That's all CYO. And those times were so much fun.

St. Anne's in Brooklyn, like I can go on and on and on. Business and money complicate things with basketball. It does a little bit. It can. It depends who you are. It depends who you are. You play basketball, you have this opportunity, you make a ton of money. Wow, you're lucky.

You're one of a million. But not everybody thinks like that. Some people are still like into themselves, authentically. They don't want to care about the money. They're not creating a plan. They don't care about the financial analysis. They don't care. They want to play basketball, have a little fun, and move on.

So it just depends, like, you know, your makeup, your personality type. What's your relationship with regret? Do you do much of that? I don't do much regret. I do focus on making an impact. And I think there's some regret in there. There's regret in there. From a standpoint, I wish I would have did this differently,

so I'm going to do this differently. So I think a little bit of regret is in there. But I kind of package it up in adding value to this world, adding value to people. You know, we didn't grow up with the respect for women that they have now. It was just a thing back in the days. You might make a song and degrade a woman. Yeah, hip hop is notoriously misogynistic still.

Right. So those type of things, like I wish that I wasn't just loosely singing these lyrics. Even though I like the rappers and stuff, I like music. But it creates so much problems for women and how people view. So now we do more stuff in this space. Yeah, I might have made mistakes, but it doesn't mean I can't make a difference. It sounds like a lot of times along the path, all you are is product of environment, that you are being impacted before you find your own voice,

before you become the man that you want to be that's, you know, giving positivity everywhere he can give it, you're just noticing whether it's the environment of where you grew up or noticing the environment in hip hop and you're just sort of following more than leading. Absolutely, man. Absolutely. I'm definitely a follower. I can say I'm a leader, but your actions show that you're a follower.

And your actions show that you've been influenced. Even if you're not a follower, you could have been influenced and you don't even know you're a follower. You know, and then so sometimes I'm like, oh, I identify it and I say, okay, I need to be more. I'm not trying to be, I'm not always trying to be like the guy, you know, but I also not trying to follow everybody. It's so interesting having talked to Mike Tyson as one example where there are pieces of how he became, who he became, that because it's how people identify him, I won't say that there's shame involved, but it's not something that he wants. near him or to talk about. And so it's just interesting to have someone like you who has something that would be in a masculine physical sport be something that most people would be proud of.

You're probably tired of people coming to you and saying, tell me the story about this time that you ran into this guy or had confrontation, especially when you're trying to be sunshine. Right, right, right, right. I have some standard responses to people now because some people love it. oh, when you ran into the stands, that was the greatest day in my life. I'm like, dude, that was a horrible day for me. But, you know, yeah, I tell you.

What are the standard responses? They want to talk to you about the fight. That one's probably annoying to you by now, right? Like, if I could press a button and erase, you ever having a conversation about that ever again. Would you press that button? Ever having that conversation with anybody again? Yeah, I would.

Just to be done with it, because it was a snapshot in your life. It's a moment. It definitely was a moment. It's not who you are. It was dragged. It was a big moment. But it's not like, yeah, it's definitely,

even in that moment I was meditating on the scarless tail. You know, that whole, it was a big mess. I started. It was a big mess. And I realized, I understand why Mr. Stern did what he did. It was a big mess. It was lawsuits all over that thing, ready to happen. You know, I could have sued.

They could have sued, you know. But for me, I just didn't grow up like that. You're suing people or thinking about suing. I just, you know, I kind of handled things differently. But it was a big mess. And it was only a moment, but it was such a big moment where people still get excited about it to today. And so, yeah, that must get wearying, right?

Like you don't, you endure it. But when you say, what are the standard responses? Is it always about that? Because I was speaking more, your career is framed by will. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Fearlessness. That's true, too. It's not.

That's also true. I mean, but that's, most people would aspire to fearlessness and, and would think it a noble trait. Yeah, when I'm playing basketball, I'm digging deep. I'm in the fourth quarter. I got pain in my thighs. The lactic acid is building up. The synovial fluid is stagnant. You know, I'm pushing through that, right?

You're at the limits of the human body. Yeah, limits, at the limits. Always at the limits, because how I play. and then I got to go and score on the other hand, you know, with no legs. You know, it's just like, I don't mind whatever comes with this. Chest gets explodes. You know, whatever's going to happen to my body is not important. What's important is not giving up mentally.

And to tap into that, and people play it against me, they can say what they want. They can say I was dirty, I was this, but I play with five fouls a lot. I was able to get five fouls and not foul out. coach had total confidence in me for fouls. Do you know the number of times you filed out in your career? I don't know. It wasn't a lot. I don't know.

It wasn't a lot. Did you run into a lot of opponents or any opponents that you would say, I feel like this person is tougher than me? There's definitely some players that I agree that probably was a little bit tougher. Like Kobe, you know, he was, maybe if I would have got information that he received from his dad overseas, sees. So, yeah, that could be it also. But, yeah, I think Kobe was definitely a guy. Derek Fisher and Rick Fox have talked about early on in their Lakers' tenures,

Kobe challenging them until they were willing to fight because he wanted to challenge them until they were willing to fight. He's a tough guy. Is that something that you ran into at all? Oh, yeah. He, he, he, he, Kobe was ready for that. That's naturally. His natural instinct is to be ready for anything. It's really impressive to see. So if you want to fight Kobe, he's not scared. You know, he expected it.

You're probably not going to do nothing. He's not even worried. It was really impressive to see. And he also will take that and use it and destroy you on the other end. And, yeah, maybe he didn't punch you in your face, but you feel kind of hurt. He gave you 50. Right. Would have hurt less if you had just punched me in the face.

Yeah, maybe just punched me in the face. Is there a peer that you admired more than any other because of whatever your standards are in measuring excellence? I think Tim Duncan is somebody I admire it because he was tough. He never bullied anybody. He never backed down. You know, he won and he did it with focus. And I know it was hard. It had to be hard.

Because to not get emotional, that's incredible to me. To not, we've seen Tim Duncan emotional one time. We probably all know the time. He missed a bunny against in the finals. Okay, great. He probably jumped up. Maybe he took a hop. Oh, you're talking about the shot that he made after, which time are you talking about?

You see what I'm saying? We know, we all know. Right. I'm saying everyone's got the story of the one time they saw Tim Duncan's emotional. It's not many times. What an interesting thing for you to admire, though. So you don't like that your emotion was so out there that people can make their assessments about who you are,

whereas he was a stoic. It depends. So if you got the personality type where your emotion, happy or sad is going to throw off your balance because your body's not thinking about it like that. The body's saying you're emotional. So if I'm really happy, yes, if somebody pushes me and I might punch him around their face.

If I'm really sad, Like, oh my goodness. Somebody pushed me in the court. I can give that same reaction. You see what I'm saying? Now, it's different type of body types or DNA types. Somebody might be like, yes, I just dunked on them. Yes.

And then they pushed that guy. And that guy is like, yo, Otani, when he got hit in the back with the baseball. He was like, all right, I'm good. Toler's bench. Don't worry about it. Wave. That's incredible to me. I would have went for a bat.

So you admire people who can control their emotions and circumstances. You think that was a weakness of yours. That was a huge weakness. Absolutely. You know, and that's why I started to talk about therapy, and people will call me weak, but I was actually becoming stronger. When I started to talk about therapy and actually did the sessions, yeah, you might not got the rah-rah.

I had one incident, one more, after I was changed my name in the Middle World Peace, which is super unfortunate. I blame James Harden for it, actually. I'm like, damn, James. You know. You wanted to have no incidents after you changed your name to Meta World Peace. No incident. Not under Meta World Peace.

And so James Harden, we're blaming James Harden because he soiled this. He's a friend. He's a good guy. I love James. I was like, good grief. I just changed my name in the Meta. Get away from me. You know?

So that's a perfect example. So I'm playing well against OKC. I have 16 in the first half that game, by the way. Look at those highlights, okay? I was cooking them. So I got about three dunks. I don't dunk typically. So now I'm like, oh, wow, I caught a dunk today, or another dunk.

I get my third dunk. I'm super excited. Yeah, Lake a fan, let's go, let's go. Then James takes a U-turn, pushes me in my back, which is, like, really unexpected. I didn't think it was him. I thought it was like Ibaka, because me and Ibaka, not that we don't like each other, we're just physical. So I thought it was him or Perkins or somebody.

So anyway, when he pushed me, my reaction was like, get up off me. Right? Get up off me. That's what I'm saying about some. If you look at Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan might dunk on you. Like, yes, he's not going to take it over the limit, you know, unless you come at him. Michael Jordan's a little bit, he's like, he's not going back down. You look at a guy like, even Shaq, Shaq a dunk on you.

Hang on the rim, but he's not going to get too out of control unless you come at him. some people that emotion can get them out of character and you have no balance and that's what I realized about myself and you're saying that you realized the realization that you could at least partially harness your anger and temper was when you chose to go to therapy

versus it being mandated absolutely absolutely I mean I wish that I could like hit a big three or dunk and be like yeah let's just go, but I couldn't, I couldn't raise my level that high. So if you watch in Sacramento, you'll watch my, even when I hit the three against the Lakers, I had my therapist come from Houston at that morning. So when I hit that three, there was no celebration.

It was a calm, just kiss of the crowd. It was no, let's get, nothing. And that whole series, I had big games that series, that whole playoff run. But it was all about succeed, keep your level here. Keep your level here. Keep your level here. Because even if I'm too happy, too excited, it's an uncontrolled. controllable level, if that makes sense.

Well, for you, right? Yeah, for me. And it's one of the reasons. Because no, but I don't think anybody, everybody knows how good Tim Duncan was, but I don't think anybody would say Tim Duncan was tougher than you. You have the reputation of being somebody who is tougher than other tough people. Right. And it's not because of that fight.

Right, right. No, not because of the fight. It was other things that happened throughout my career, not giving up, getting better in a summertime. You cared deeply about defense. You took great pride in doing little things that other people didn't care to do. Absolutely. Every deny, every box out, every close out, I'm going to chop my feet.

Every thing on defense, things you don't see that the coach told me to do, I was doing. Did you get to retire the way that you wanted to? No way. No way. I wanted to retire with showing the way I lock people on defense. it was like so many things you know it's a way to get it done

you play well you build relationships you know and different things so I didn't get a chance to do a lot of the corporate stuff that I wanted to do that was in my mind I'm gonna be great I'm gonna do it just like this I'm gonna have a career maybe like Mike or maybe like Tim Duncan

right and then it changes so I had to get it back but yeah I didn't retire how I wanted to I never really officially retired because of that reason I maybe maybe I just started saying I'm retired like two, three years ago. But no, I did not retire how I wanted to. When you said you were going through a four-year period of depression, you don't feel like your career ever got back to where it was after that, right? You believe that was an incident

that was so heavy on you that it derailed who it is you would become, right? Yeah, it got the best of me. I was still pretty good. Like, I was 20 in Sacramento and Houston. You can watch the Lakers series. I was really good. That was five years later. Kobe was six for 24 in the game that you won game seven. You won it. And in Lakers, yeah, I was really good. At the Lakers, you, I mean, the reason they won the championship is because you were better than Boston in that game seven and at the end of that game. Yeah, I was really good that year, but when you're playing with Kobe, yeah, you can average 20, but you know, I was not a seven-point scorer. You know, I was, I can really play.

But, you know, I think I'll forget the first part of your question. And so did I. I forgot the first part of my question as well, because I was talking about the four-year period of when it is that you were kind of broken and that your career ended up getting, that you feel your career ends up getting derailed right there. Oh, yeah, but it wasn't.

I mean, I was still playing well. When I got to Sacramento, I was 270. You know, I was planning to retire. I actually put in my papers. I was actually talking to the league. And they were like, some people were trying to say, well, I said, no, send me my papers. Actually, I can't remember how I got the papers.

Or I can't remember what email I got or something. But I was at the step of just, like, signing. And that's it. Moving on with my pursuing architecture, which is my first major. But I never got back. In Houston, I'm not going to say, in Houston mentally and physically, I was at my best. I was really good.

I was 29. But where I was the year before that, you're talking about somebody that was holding people to seven, five, and destroying them on the other end. They had no chance. Maybe a few people, like LeBron was really good. LeBron was really good.

First year. Yes, it didn't take him long. Not long at all. What would you say that you're proudest of? I'm most proud of my MBA citizenship award. That's the most proud of my career. That was big. That's a big turnaround.

And that took work. You know, and the writer, I got the award. David actually was happy. I got the award. I think David was there that day, actually. I got the award. No, he wasn't there. I was hoping he was there.

But he did give me my ring. That would have been amazing. David Stern being there for your citizenship award. That would have been great. The gentleman, I got it. gave it to me. This is bad. I know his name.

I got to see his picture. Oh, I wish I had my phone. You know him. The gentleman that presented me with the award. Oh, man, this is so bad. We'll find it here. Yeah, we'll find it. Oh, I'm so sorry.

No, that's all right. We'll find it. But tell me about the Citizenship Award. It's great. I mean, it's everything that I wanted to do in my life. The first thing I said in rookie transition, I was a little too aggressive. Mr. Stern was there.

Maybe Adam Silver was there, too, because he was a protege. My first thing was, I see we doing NBA CARE. This is just when NBA CARES launch. I was saying, Baron Davis here, Elton Brand here. And I was like, what are we doing?

I said, I know we're doing NBA CARES, but what are we doing for the hood? That was my first introduction to Mr. Stern. In front of him. But then you go, you go, I mean, what a great moment of pride and what an unexpected answer that you would go through the whole journey,

the whole ordeal, and that the thing you would be proudest of, as a defensive player of the year, as a champion, would be that, no, I got the punctuation right on, I rehab that one moment wasn't going to be who defines me.

And if you want to make it one moment, how about you make it about me getting this award? It's a big award. It's just like an MVP. Not many people got that award, you know, and people that do a lot of philanthropy. And I respect the writers and the league

because through my worst time, I was still doing philanthropy. But people didn't see it. And even right now, I'm on the board of the UCLA Psychiatric Award, which is the greatest thing I've ever done in my life.

I was so honored when they asked me to be on the border of the psych war. I'm like, what? Hold on. Is this like one of those things where you're just like, just for the day?

I mean, you know, it was a real thing. It's seven years or six years now. And it shows the commitment I have to mental health, improving the wellness of people in this country. How did that all happen? Tell me how that happened with the UCLA Board of Directors and what it means to you because you have been an advocate. You've been out in front on this. Long before Demar de Rosen and Kevin Love were doing this, you were somebody who was advocating on behalf

of mental health, at least in part because you saw Dennis Rodman do it. Dennis inspired me, yeah. So, yes, Dennis, when he, The interview he had with Oprah, that's why I fell in love with Dennis. It wasn't because all the other stuff. Me and Dennis got different games with the exception of our endurance. He told, he spilled his heart and nobody heard him. Which got to me, I'm like, people are still talking about how crazy Dennis is or this. Did you not see the Oprah interview?

He was molested. Parents didn't want him. He moved in with somebody else. They didn't want him. This guy had every reason to fail him. life. And when he made it, finance attacks your emotions. That's the thing people don't understand about money. Whether you're an athlete or a founder that exited. We know a story where founders commit suicide. They don't know what to do. Money taps into your emotions. And it's not that you're

a bad person. It's your experience in life. You see, and when I saw that story with Dennis, it made me just love them more. You know, it made me love them and I understood him. And I was going through some stuff too different, but I was also going through some stuff. So, you know, that's the type of stuff. That's kind of how I look at it. You wore 91 because of that, correct? Yes, absolutely. Because of how it spoke to you, because of how his voice reached through the television and made forced empathy upon you.

Absolutely. I wore 91. Actually, so the Bulls were my favorite players, favorite team growing up, even though I'd hate when they beat the Knicks. I did not want the Bulls be in the Knicks. But after the Knicks, I left the Bulls. So I wore Michael Jordan's number. I got defensive player at a year, Michael Jordan's jersey. And I was third.

So I did my best work in Michael Jordan's jersey. I love Michael Jordan, even though I accidentally broke his ribs in a pickup game. And then Dennis was going to be next. So I ironically get into a fight in Detroit in Dennis Robbins jersey. I did not plan this. I don't know the story of you breaking Michael Jordan's ribs. It was out there. I didn't put it out there.

Gentleman Sam Smith's Chicago Tribune. He put it out there. So then it got out there. so now I'll just talk about it. But it wasn't me bragging about it. And it's still not you bragging about it. It's not bragging about it.

It's out there. You know, I'm a fan. I wore number 23 because of Michael. I love Michael. He was the only former player. He was the only player to call me during the brawl. Besides maybe Reggie Miller

because he was teammates. But Michael Jordan was the only one to call me and it comfort me. It was incredible. What did he say? He said, you're going to be okay. Just hang in there. I couldn't believe it.

Michael Jordan. But how did you break? his ribs. It was a pickup game. In a pickup game, we know Michael Jordan's a tough player. I was a young, I was 20 years old.

And I don't think Michael knew how strong I was. So he was posting up everybody else that was there. Always, you know, pros. But when it came to me, it's not going to be that easy. And I don't think he understood that.

And so we were just tussling, jocke in for a position, and I don't move. You know, so I accidentally, he ran into, it wasn't like a fight. Sam said I punched him.

Can you believe that? In Chicago Tribune, Ronald Attest, punched Michael Jordan, breaks his ribs. I almost died. I literally almost died. I couldn't believe he wrote that story.

It was really disrespectful. I can't believe he reported that. That did not happen. Even Jordan called me after that and said, it's okay. It was an accident. I'm not going to fight Michael Jordan.

But it was a really aggressive pickup game. Extremely aggressive. Did you ever run into anybody your size or roughly your size who had more strength than you? The only one in my position was LeBron. LeBron's, he's faster. That was the thing with LeBron.

Well, he's just bigger, right? I mean, he's six, nine, and he weighs more than you, too. Well, he didn't weigh more to me. I was, well, some people, it depends the year. I mean, he was like two, he was 280 at one point, no matter what he was saying his weight was. I also played at 275. So the weight, it wasn't that. Well, LeBron, it was his speed and his spring.

So you got somebody just as strong, even if he's like 5% less strong than me. He's way faster and jumps way higher. That's a whole other dynamic. Tell me some stuff about here the other projects that you're involved in, not just the art test management group, but DNA doing, doing, nothing average of your agency.

The efforts that you're making in business to stay connected. Absolutely. It's been exciting. Doing nothing average is one of our portfolio companies. It's a sports agency. Colby Shinto is the founder, female agent, support her, signed to her. But I remember working with her almost fresh out of college.

And we just grew a bond. and we started this journey on becoming a sports agent. And then four years later, she became an agent. We supported her, and we still do to this day. It's one of our favorite companies, and she's an up-and-coming agent. And she loves the game. So, yeah, that's doing nothing average. It's super exciting.

And our test management group? Our test management group is a holding company. It's a consultant firm now. I launched it two, 10 years ago as a C-Corp. I knew what I wanted to do, but I didn't know how I was going to get there, honestly, 10 years ago. But yeah, it's a holding company. We have 40 companies in the portfolio now.

BuildOps is one of them, which is a lot of people know about the company in the private equity world. Buttercloth is one easy care link. We have others in the pipeline. It was really hard in the beginning. But, you know, I just decided not to sway. I decided to stay in this field of private equity and get there. So, you know, it's been around for 10 years. and we're going to try to be around for another 10 years.

Are you proud of yourself there? Is the math kid in you proud on some of the things that he's been able to do away from basketball that don't have much of anything else to do with basketball? It has nothing to do with basketball. No, I was actually forced to do this because I wasn't getting a lot of opportunities. You know, every coaching job, everything. So I was forced to get into this field, but I'm definitely proud. It's not easy.

You're going up against the Michael Jordans of this space. You're going up against the Tim Duncan's and the Michael Jones. of finance with no background. And do you stop and give up or do you keep going? And, you know, my makeup, obviously, we know it's not to give up. There's not a give up in this DNA or that DNA. Meta, thank you. Always a pleasure talking to. And has been really wonderful to see your evolution, your growth and your embracing of change and challenges in order to stay positive, sir. It's been great being on your show. I also want to tell people in 2008, I'm running as an independent. We are already

decided. We're going forward. We're running as an independent. All right. What's the, tell us. Give us more. Is this something that you've announced before? Are you announcing right here? We announced it on the shop. So I'm super excited about it. I'm super excited about the American dream. I've always been a kid

that had an American dream. As we know, big on mental health and the well-being of others, it's not just about the negative sides or sometimes there's a positive that message that you can get across and to have the opportunity

to build a firm in a way where we can administrate we also do fund administration a lot of stuff in our firm, but in the way where we can manage this, it's just incredible. I can't believe where I'm at in my life. The American Dream is live and well, and

we're going to continue to try to add value. So I'm super excited about 2028. We know I'm competitive. So we know we don't have to worry about that with any human being that's walking the face of this earth. So I'm super excited about it. Thank you, META. Thank you for the time you gave. And thank you for sharing all of the story and the vulnerability with us.

Thank you.