The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Michael Wilbon

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

Personal. Thoughtful. Intimate. MIchael Wilbon brings a whole new meaning to "PTI" on South Beach Sessions.  Raw, uncut, and as real as it gets - Dan says all the things he's always wanted to and in return, Wilbon shares moments from his life that he's never told anyone. Would love to tell you more but you'll just have to listen... you won't regret it.  Watch Michael Wilbon & Tony Kornheiser on "Pardon the Interruption" weekdays on ESPN. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm really excited about this one because I've never told this man how I actually feel about him. Beyond being a pioneer and someone who gave me and others like me permission, shared the stage with me, he's the original gangster. He taught all of us what sports writing could be, what friendship and partnership with someone you love could be, changing television with one of the best sports television shows ever made and a long journalism career before that, before you gravitated toward the cotton candy and one of the hardest workers I've ever met. I don't know where your ambition comes from, but I'd like to ask you a bunch of questions that I have never asked you before, but first to express my profound respect and love for a legitimate teacher of mine. You and Tony

showed me the way. That's just a weird possible. I'm 10 years older than you and that means Tony's 20. that showed me what could be possible. I'm 10 years older than you and that means Tony's 20. You know, Dan, first of all, that means a lot to come from you. It means a lot to come from the people that are in a group that are half, if generation is 20 and half generation is 10, it means you and Stephen A Smith and certain people that are exactly 10 years younger.

We don't think of you guys as being younger, but you are. and certain people that are exactly 10 years younger. We don't think of you guys as being younger, but you are. And if we showed anything, if we did anything that reveals some sort of humanity, my mother was a teacher at public school in Chicago for 35 years, so teaching's important. So that's a hell of a compliment. Thank you for saying that.

I'm so grateful to you and Tony and ride home and Keller, her and the entire environment that you had around you because it showed me what kind of environment I wanted around me. I tell people all the time it wasn't even the friendship of Tony and Mike that made me gravitate toward how I would do it in its evolution. It's what they had behind the scenes, caring for them. The people taking care of their relationship and enjoying each other's company, creating something. Like you guys really did birth.

I'm not kidding you when I tell you that you guys watching you, because it was unstated. It's not like you were telling me, holding me by the hand, saying here, Dan. Because guys don't talk about that stuff, right? No, Dan, okay, but you know it comes, but there's another place where you got some of it

because you're the people 10 years younger than us of the last people to sadly get this. And it was the camaraderie, the engagement, the contention of the newsroom. And so ours is based on, you know, if you watch, if people are old enough to have watched Mary Tyler Moore and the ensemble cast of Mary Tyler Moore and Ted Baxter and John Amos and of course Lou Grant and Adam.

They were living breathing things. Newsrooms were, they had a heart. They were, I missed that. People said you missed writing, not really. I missed the newsroom, but I know the newsrooms don't exist anymore. Not like they did for us and so Tony and I existed in the same newsroom and we took that down the street and Eric speaking to people Eric's not quite 10 years younger but you know you guys got the benefit of some of that

and yes Tony and I we needed it it was mandatory to flourish in that kind of environment. So needed the sparks, needed people arguing, gushing at each other, creative, burst something that HR would not tolerate anymore. We used to tell young people who came into the PTI newsroom in 20, so this is 2001, 2002, three, four, five, six, young people in terms, men and women, young, men and women.

Be careful with how Tony and Mike are going to curse. We don't give a shit if you don't like it. If you don't like it, leave. Oh my God. Do you imagine if people in Bristol knew that? That's what we did. And we didn't care. And you know what?

No one ever complained to our knowledge because it was a democratic place, it was a place where you could screen back. You know, that's the magic of it, that everybody was sort of equal no matter who got paid more. Everybody was pretty equal. Did you realize that you were pioneering?

Did you realize that you were leading the way, giving sports writers permission To turn into characters on television. I would say you widened why the answer is no It's a it's an actual concrete no because I grew up Dan I'm the weirdest creature in this way people people come to me and they say Stephen A Smith has told me this We work together every week on countdown on the SPN in this way. People come to me and they say, Stephen A Smith has told me this, we worked together every week on countdown on the S pin.

And he's told me, you know, people have said, you were the first person I sort of saw, and then when I was in the profession already, you guys made this transition. Well, when I was a kid, a kid, I'm talking about 12, 14 years old. Brent Musberger did this in Chicago. He wrote for the Chicago Daily News,

and then Brent Musberger was on CBS with Jimmy DeGreek, and Irv Cross, and Jane Kennedy, and Miss America, I'm forgetting that, I'm not sure if it was George. So Brent Musberger covered the Bears, and then he was on TV. So I was a little kid. And then there was a guy,

which bringing it even closer to home for me, a guy named Wendell Smith. Wendell Smith was a little kid. And then there was a guy which bring it even closer to home for me. A guy named Wendell Smith. Wendell Smith was a black man an African-American man in his, I'm guessing 50s and 60s, his widow just died. And he was writing a column for the Chicago Sun Times and he was on WGN at the same time. When I was eight and 10 years old.

So people, I've had people come up to me in the last 20 years saying, you were the first person I saw who looked like me, who did this. I saw people, I saw someone, Wendell Smith, who looked like me and did both, and crossed over and transitioned into television when I was 10.

So 55 years ago. So no, I don't consider myself a pioneer. I saw people do this. I actually know one of them. Brent Musburger is something of a mentor without ever being presumptuous enough. Brent Musburger did all I went to the same college. Went to Northwestern. Brent is Papa Wildcat. Brent is 80 plus at this point, right? So Brent's got at least 16, 17 years on me. Okay, you can cite other pioneers, but for me and for Stephen A Smith, you were the guy and I have a

I'd know that's factually I get it. I you know, I believe you guys. It's just But you asked me if I thought of myself that way God know well you were too busy working and repressing general feelings that aren't supposed to be spoken out loud by sportsmen. Repressing. Yeah, sports cavemen, but you, man, I remember your kindness, your grace, Michael, beyond, beyond just being nice to people walking through an arena of people slapping you on the back, and really seeming like someone who was grateful that anybody would think Michael Wilbons words meant anything enough to make him a rock star, but beyond that,

you and Tony were so generous with your platform. And you know as well as I do, that that's not true of all of your sports riding peers with ego. No, it's not true of all of our colleagues, which is too bad because we generally felt that way. We generally felt that way. I just think it's how I was raised. There's no presumption. I was raised by two people who fled the South,

post-depression, who were part of the Great Migration from Georgia and Tennessee, in general place in the South, but specifically for them, Georgia and Tennessee, my father and mother, respectively, to Chicago. And they were grateful for what they had, all of it. Grateful, every day, and you had to be grateful, and there was no presumption. There was no other way. And then I really believe that, you know, people from the Midwest use a phrase Midwestern sensibilities.

That exists. And I know people from the East don't believe it. And people from the West don't even know where what it is. Oh, but it's not just politeness. Hold on a second. There are plenty of people in this business, competitive people in this business,

who would have been threatened. You have real confidence, but who would be threatened by the sharing of the stage that it is mine. It is not, you had a seminal program that somehow still exists okay, that has made its way through the labyrinth of all ESPN things isn't subject to cuts because you guys are now above cuts, like you've got seniority, you are tenured in high school, I need to be above cuts. You are tenured at what it is that you do and from the very beginning

you shared that with me and you didn't have to and you did it in a really loving way that made someone who was You nervous You feel like you're saying that and Dan it wasn't conscious Just that's how the two we were Those those were the conditions under which we came into the business and grew up and we're very lucky too. The people that shared what they shared at the New York Times and Newsday for Tony and the Washington Post and the Washington Post for me.

There's no, I mean, Bob Woodward and Ben Bradley were that way. We got to the post. So why wouldn't we be? Didn't think of the Watergate reporters were that way with Tony and Mike got to the post. So why wouldn't we be? Didn't think of the watergate reporters were that way with Tony and Mike and his board? Yes, I remember. I don't know why this came up recently, but it did. Tony and I were talking about it on November 22, 1982, which would have been the 25th anniversary exactly of the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy Tony and I were on the fifth floor where the Washington Post Newsroom famously was and we

We were just thinking about the 25th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy Well his best friend was our boss Benjamin C. Bradley the great editor of post. And we decided to go up to his office and ask him if he would take us to lunch. If we, like, I don't even know what got in us, Tony did most of the talking I was too scared. And we went into Ben's office, Secretary said he's back there going, and Ben Bradley, people can picture Jason Robars

if they need to, said, you two look like you want something. We said we'd like you. Can we go to lunch? Why? Well, today's, of course he knows what today is. And Vibram Bradley took us to lunch for like three hours until this story's. Rough old newspaper, man.

But you guys did bring journalism to what it, you guys brought, and changing the way sports television was done. You guys brought a journalistic sensibility that had a little bit of meat the press to it and had also the crossfire sensibilities of we're gonna argue, but we love each other and the arguments aren't gonna mean anything and they're not gonna be phony. They're not gonna be one. I'm like crossfire, which was completely phony. Or a lot of sports television these days. Yes, it is.

But yeah, we, yes, we brought that sensibility because again, that's who we were. I mean, part of this, anything that you're crediting us with, and I'll speak for Tony now too, it's who we were. It's how we were trained. I went to what I think is the greatest journalism school in the world, Northwesterns, Medell and I brought that training Plus I worked at one place for 30 years and six months the Washington Post. That's all I knew

I knew how to go about news that way and sports that way and treat it like it was news Not like it was the toy section. It wasn't the toy section And I know where you grew up at the Miami Herald and I know people like Edwin Pope who helped shape my early life. They did I know we were shaped by some of the same forces And I know the people that you worked with like Greg Cody I Because I feel that that that there was a way that we were all taught to be at that point in the business and I'm grateful grateful for that. And so I take no credit though I'm glad you offer it for sharing the stage. The stage was to be shared, it wasn't mine. It wasn't mine to dominate.

And I know what you're talking about. I won't name names, and we know the same people who did not want to share. I don't care about that. Well, there are more, but there are more than, I found more of those in this business than I found people like you. You did more things and you went more places and you you had more interactions with people on that level than we did. You know, I didn't, you know, me, I want to go to a gym on a Tuesday night or Thursday night. Well, you love sports in

uncommon way. You love work in an uncommon way. And I wanna get into your life in times because I don't think people understand how hard it is been and what you've earned, what you've had to earn. But you purposefully just did 30 years and six months because it hurt you to leave newspapers. How do you know that it's six months, 30 years? I know the day that I left. December 7, 2010, my, would have been my father's birthday.

December 7, he was born on, 16 years old on Pearl Harbor Day. So I got a real easy way to remember it. The Matthew was two years old, so he's born in 2008. So I got an easy way to remember it. And that just happens to be from June 13, 1980, when I got to the post post 30 years and six months.

So yeah, it's easy to remember for me. No, it wasn't intentional. I didn't want to leave. I didn't want to leave. ESPN sort of forced me to leave. They just said, we don't want to see your best work there. We wanted here enough, because I overlap for nine years. You know, we talked about it,

and you would say when we were together. Crazy amount of work. What are you doing? Why won't you choose? And I didn't trust television. Still don't. Don't. And I trusted working for Don and Katherine Graham.

I trusted that. And obviously that, you know, people say that you miss it. Yeah, I miss it, but I would have missed it if I was still there because it doesn't exist anymore. Now. But yeah, I did it because I didn't trust it. And again, I'm the son of sharecroppers. You know, people who grew up and did a hard work

in the farm. And my father got up at 3.45 every morning and went to work every morning. There was no, what does that the NBA players do now? Load management. There's no load management. There's none. My father never missed a day of work in my life.

Until he retired at 58 years old. Retired at 58. So there's no load management. Take your ass to work. That's what we did. Fathers went to work. And so I'm embarrassed that people don't work. That's what you're supposed to do. That's your obligation to the people that are in your family,

to the city, the neighborhood, the culture. However large you wanna make it. So yeah, so I didn't, I don't take any credit for that. That is your work though, because you know that part you understand, you know that you're a symbol for something with your platform that you know I do. I didn't know that when I was doing it at first I didn't know. I mean I know yes now yes I be sitting here lying and I'd be naive if I didn't know but no you went to work. I didn't have I missed one day of school in grade school from kindergarten to nine, one day.

I remember throwing up in the third grade. It was the last time I threw up until I was 38 years old. One day, I remember I embarrassed I was to throw up and missed the next day of school. And I grew up some place where people weren't just lazy. I grew up some place where there was a 27-inch snow storm when I was in fourth grade. You got to be at school by 10.30.

The next day, I said, a nine. There's no snow days. Matthew says, Dad, how many snow days you have as a kid? What? What? And kids now miss school, miss work for any reason, any bullshit reason. I didn't miss anything. I think the most soulful conversation I ever had with you was before Matthew was born

after you had your heart issue and you were doing some deep dive looks into mortality and to life's purpose because you have dedicated almost the entirety of your identity to the work. And yeah, I guess so. I don't see it. I don't think of it. You mentioned earlier about, you tied it to sports about what sports guys don't think

of and don't talk about. Dan, I don't think about it consciously. Now, I thought about, yes, you were right. You were there. You said that it was a snap shot. I've never seen it before from you. It was a week, it was a snapshot. I've never seen it before from you. It was a week, it was, it was one week, I remember I wanted to come back to work.

And you called me, I remember the phone call, and you said, don't be an idiot. You don't have to work. You had a heart attack, stop it. Well, I thought you did have to work. Cause I thought if my dad was alive, that's what he would have wanted me to do. Go to work. You're fine or you think you're fine. Get up and go to work. So I wanted to go back to work on Friday and you and Tony and ride home said no.

So I went back to work on Monday. What I did. So the soul searching was more about my father died at 60 of lung cancer. And I spent my entire life being afraid of turning 60. Afraid. When I got to 50, you think I was bad and I had the heart attack at 49. You choose to see me at 59, 10 years later, I was worse because I was afraid to turn 60.

Even though my mother was 92 at the time, I identified with my father, not my mother's 92 years, ultimately 93. And you got to know my mother a little bit. I got to identify with my own man. And so the examination of it was just fear. Straight a week of introspection and then back into the work.

And back into the work until we got to about 57 and then I started to fear I'll say 58 Before I just said damn, you know My old man You know died at an age where I'm actually not getting that emotional. I mean, I'm tired when I start tearing up. It means I'm tired. It literally means I'm tired, too tired.

I've been keeping to me late nights. All I care about is I want to, I want to, I want for Matthew to have me longer than I have my father. I was 27 when my father died. Now, people might say the bar is low because I'll be 20. Matthew will be 28 when I'm 78. All right, so if I can get to see Matthew turn 30, that's, that's what I want. But I didn't think, 60 was just, it was a tough thing because I lived like to this data, please my old man even dead 36 years Something like that, but that's that's what I exist. So that examination that's the examination

it was that Simple and probably removed and I didn't think I had to do less work you know me you know, I didn't do less work No, you don't know what that means does math you know what you just told me? No, you don't know what that means. Does math you know what you just told me? No. No. The biggest regret I have about this generation gap is it's a real gap. Like the word generation gap, the phrase was meant to describe what existed between the depression was meant to describe what existed between the depression era people, people born from World War I to almost World War II or World War II. And then their children. And grandchildren.

I should tell people you had Matthews 15 now. Matthews 15, you had that. You had that. 49 and a half years old. And so that generation gap was meant to describe that. But yet, at some point, I still adopted the music my parents listened to. I, while calling them old, listening to the Jackson Five and they couldn't stand to hear it, I still, I got to that King Cole and Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, right?

And Sam Cook, I got to them. I've never considered what you are presently putting in front of me, which is the idea that there is a generation of pop culture removed from even father and son because you had him right after you had the heart attack. I did. Right before you had the heart attack. No, forgive me, forgive me on the timing on this.

Right after. Right after. Two months after you was born March 25th, I had the heart attack on January 28th, same year. But so, so generation gap ultimately we merged. And ultimately I can sit in the car with my mother who's 32 years older than me. That's not a small gap for somebody born in 1925

to have a child 32 years later. We did this, we watched the same stuff. We listened to this sense of we consume the same things. We didn't say, what, what is that? Now we have generation gaps, big ones. And I don't mean you have, you don't have to be 50 years older than your kid. Everybody has it. Technology helped create that. So does Matthew really internalize anything that goes on in my life? No. Will he? I don't know. I don't know. And again, I don't know that that would be any different if I was 44 right now and not 64.

and not 64. What did fatherhood teach you? Because before that, I would say that Wilbon was married almost pretty exclusively to his job. Yeah, sure, I would probably say that I still am. It just puts some things on the back burner. Other things become more important, is very simple. The greatest thing I've ever done is be Matthew's father. The thing I'm proudest of is being Matthew's father. Does

that mean I, you know, I was at a point then at 50, I'd already worked 30 years. So I, what you and others were saying at the time was you can back off. I didn't know that gear and have that and didn't do it. And probably that led to some other things. But the thing that I saw that I got from my father and the relationship was dad's work. And that's what I want Matthew to get. I don't know if he gets it.

I really don't. He sees it. First of all, he sees he's running around the arena last night. He knows I'm up there sitting there talking, but he's running around. He met Neymar well, but this is my I mean, no, this is your fault this part your fault, but it's not I want to work with my father's my work I know but he drove a truck. He was a little different. I know you didn't get the whole Magic that's it's correct slightly different. This one's your fault. You're a fault. It's my reality You've given your son. Your fault is my reality. You've given your son.

I'm saying, I'm saying he's a little bit spoiled. You know, he's very spoiled. And okay, that's your fault. And on top of that, maybe he hasn't learned quite the value of hard work the way you did because you saw your father coming home and he'd be busted up and your life wasn't quite as opulent as I'm guessing.

Matthew's life is right now. He left the Ritz Carlton South Beach this morning after breakfast by the pool. He left that to fly back home to Washington. After meeting Neymar and after meeting Neymar last night. After being in a finals game because he wanted to fly in and be with his dad. Yeah, I want him to do that. I told you know, there's no more gifts and boxes and packages for him. You get experiences. You get experiences. So stuff that you'll remember.

And so you know, he and we did that at a young age, we did that purposely. Um, because we do enjoy that connection with sports, we argue and fight about sports every day like my father and my brother and I did at the kitchen table, which people say was a precursor to PTI people who know what our kitchen was like. So Matthew and I do that every day, most of my wife's chagrin. Every day, screaming holler, dad, why don't you love Kyrie Irving? Because Kyrie's an asshole.

Why do you love him Matthew? This is every day in our house. And so he gets that part of it. He gets what I do. Didn't want any part of it. But he can also luxuriate in the benefits of how you get to do that. You know, And so I don't know what it means. I don't know what any kids get from their parents anymore because they don't even talk. We didn't have headphones on, Dan. We didn't have headphones on my father when a slap that shit out of me

and knocked the headphones out of my ears. That's true. The air pods or buds or whatever they are. They don't even pay attention to us. They don't even, they're not even paying attention to us. They don't pay attention to each other. There's no dialogue. Tell me how your parents shaped you because you were visiting your mother in Miami into her late 20s before you moved her

to Chicago, a beautiful son you were until the very end. Tell me about your parents, how they shaped you, and I mentioned where, or I asked you where ambition came from. I know where your work comes from. I know where your work comes from. I don't know where and how your ambition was. Share failure. Share failure, plain and simple, everything that has always motivated me. Don't fail. Don't fuck up. I mean, that's just it. Because that come from parents. Yeah. Yeah, they lived in my mother took. So, yes, I moved my mother as you completely accurately said to Chicago, because I couldn't, I couldn't

come to South Florida to look after her. I'm already in Washington. We'd built a second home in Arizona. And then I got involved a lot in Chicago in my alma mater in Northwestern, and then the South Side of Chicago, and trying to be involved in the fabric of the place that produced me. And I couldn't ask South Florida that anymore.

And I said to her, what do you wanna spend your last chapter? And she said, how about home? And home for her was the South Side of Chicago. She went there 14 years old. Her father's brother had driven down in the dirt of Tennessee and the country roads and said to his brother, her father. Frank, why don't you let Robert RJ? Why don't you let one of your 11 kids come to Chicago live on the South side with me

and my wife and go to school. And my mother overheard it, because she didn't have any kids. They couldn't have children. And my mother overheard it, and she reminded my, her father, can I go to Chicago? She was 14. She got on the train by herself at 14 in the South. And left Tennessee, a little town called Trenton Tennessee, took the train to Chicago at 14, same age that Emmett Till lost his life. And I asked, I talked to her about this,

we would have these Christmas night dinners, and I was sad, you would have done this. This is where you would have been better than me as a journalist. You have gotten these stories out of your parents earlier and intentionally. I didn't do it till it was late She was you know 90 tonight. We had this conversation. I said you've never told me about your trip the train trip to to Chicago from Trenton Tennessee

What was it like? and She was telling she's finally she told me and I said what why didn't why we talked about this? She said this certain things you didn't want your children to have to hear and she got on the train And this is so 14 years old. It's through the mass. She was born in 1926. This is 1940 She gets on a train She's going north from from the south and she sits where everybody sits where everybody else is which means she sat with a white folks at And I said well what did the, what did the ticket taker,

she said, ticket taker came to me and said, what are you doing sitting here? And I said, where do you want me to sit? What are you talking about? Because she'd never been on a train with white people. So she, how would she know? This guy let her go and let her stay in that seat. And when they got far enough north

where black people could move to the front, she was already there. And she saw this migration. How about that for symbolism? She saw this migration of me grows from the back cars to where she was already sitting and it dawned on her. I wasn't supposed to be here. Nobody he could physically could have thrown her off or worse. And she took the train like that and got to Chicago and survived it and lived, lived to tell me about it all those years later, I never knew the story. And I know the story of him until well, South

South Chicago, I didn't know my mother knew made me till they both taught school. They were about five years apart in age, if that. And so all of that backdrop and my father fled the South, fled, fled his father and other siblings, other of the aunts and uncles feared lynching. Feared my father's temporal, which was, I'm not going back there, was going to get him killed. Get him on a train, send him north.

So instead of Detroit to get a job with the auto industry or whatever, they sent him to Chicago where there were some other siblings. So that, that has to be known about me and my brother and where we come from and and and how you got out of that circumstance is you worked and You and we didn't do most of the other stuff my parents and my parents were frugal and They were children of the depression and so that Creates very much the person I am and then growing up on the south side, growing up the most segregated big city in America at the time, a brawling city, a city where nobody was afraid, nobody was afraid. And if people think Chicago is just violent now for the first time they're idiots. Chicago's always, I know what my hometown isn't, it's always been violent.

Anybody can watch the same Valentine's Day massacre movie and figure that out. Um, and so all of that produced me. I'm I'm the sum of all of that. Um, my father was also the son of a Baptist preacher. My my parents were church going Baptist people. I haven't sit foot in the church in a long, long time. I guess I have asked you've got your own church actually. You've made church of sports. You've raised. That's Sunday morning. That's Sunday. Sunday for me is worshiping in front of multiple televisions. What was your dad getting up to do at 345? To deliver. It was always food products. At first it was sodas. When back when there were bottles, sodas, and there were crates of them. And people took the bottles back for a deposit. He delivered soda, delivered bread,

delivered ice cream when I was old just to remember. I went with him to stores, to routes. It was he was a route salesman. My father was once laid off. He was the number one route salesman at Dean's Food Company in Chicago in 1968 and he was laid off despite being the number one guy, laid off, only black salesman in the company had. And a young dude, I woke up and went to the breakfast table one Wednesday morning and his guy sitting in my breakfast table wearing a dashiki with sideburns down to his mustache. There was Reverend Jesse Jackson Jr. and he said, you're not getting laid off because I'm going to organize a boycott of Dean Foods on the south side of Chicago

to get your job back. My father was hired back in about two days. That doesn't sound like the kind of job that can afford sending a son to Northwestern. Yeah. Yeah, he was proud that we had no financial aid because we didn't qualify. Everybody else, white and black in 1976, was qualified for financial aid. Because Northwestern was the most expensive school in the country or one of the five most. And no financial aid. For two kids, my father put the two of us through.

My father and mother on a teacher's salary, which was pretty good back then. Were you seeing your father much or was he just a girl? Every day he was on by four. He always had, we ate dinner together every day. Every day, we ate dinner. He got up and he left the house at four. He was back. He was back by the time I got home from high school. I just would think that someone like that might be very tired at the end of the time. He must have worked there. He always stayed up. We watched television, watched sports together every night. Every night he was available. He took a nap. but we were together. But he, you know, he didn't know anything else. He thought he was lucky compared to what could've been

going on in the South at the time, had he stayed. But he made enough money. I remember my parents shared, they told us how much money they made. My father showed us his paycheck. We knew how much he made. We knew what fight go was. We knew what came out of the check, both of them. Exactly how much he made. We knew what fight go was. We knew what came out of the check.

Both of them. Exactly how much they made. And we knew they made more. I knew my father made more than the, sometimes, no, most of the time, the doctors and the dentists and the lawyers who we all lived together, all of us, which meant, yes, Muhammad Ali lived there on the South side of Chicago when I was growing up and you saw him and you saw the physician. For we don't where going anywhere else, we live next to Walton, no neck Williams on

the Chicago White Sox and Billy Williams and Ernie Banks lived not far away. He was that segregated. Those guys weren't living anywhere else. The black bears, players lived, because Lake Forest was so far away. So Gail Sears we didn't see and JC Caroline we didn't see. We saw everybody else, we all lived together. And yeah my father put two kids through Northwestern with no financial aid. And you dreamt then of being a sports writer? Or pretty early when I realized I wasn't going to be

the next only banks. I was 15. I realized I wasn't. That was not gonna be playing at Wrigley Field. But writing isn't much of a career. Like, you made it, neither did I, but in, if I show you retrospect right now, like my father wanted me to be an engineer. This doesn't seem like a very safe path, the one that you had to turn to my parents

and what they thought. I told them I was going to major in journalism. And I remember everybody scoffed at it. I did a table, including my brother, the banker. He says, no, he didn't. I'm like, yeah, you did. I was only two years younger than me. I didn't, I wasn't paying. I don't know what they wanted me. They never told me what they wanted me to be. They were going to supposed to support of educationally, of whatever. And so... Some people might think that sports riding with a Northwestern degree is a waste

of a Northwestern degree. Yeah, but I had David Israel, and I had Brent Musberger and David Israel, and no, it was fine. And you know, the money wasn't bad relative to the times. Who was making a bunch of money back then? Lawyers, doctors, maybe. I saw my father make more.

I remember starting at about 23 grand a year. Yeah, me too. I started at 23 grand a year, even 10 years earlier. I started at 23. We had this discussion last night, Matthew said, Dad, what did you make when you worked at the Washington? But then I actually told him to the penny. And so-

I didn't care what they were paying me though. I was so happy they were giving me any money to do it. I cared a little bit, but that was 10%. I'm like you. I was doing what I wanted to do. I could afford a nice apartment in DC, and a car could go on a date every week maybe once. Life was pretty good.

And we, Dan, 1980 and even 1990 were all that different than 2020. Well, tell people about what the hardships were though, because you didn't have any? Not a one. I had no student loans to pay back because my father didn't get financial aid. Did we didn't borrow money?

I had a little bit. I had $2,500 student loan to pay back. I could do that properly. I had no hardships. Georgetown and hired me, promoted me. I went from college sports to pro sports to columnist in 10 years in rural column for the next 20 after being ten as a reporter. I had no hardships. I had no desperate, awful relationships. I didn't have that. My parents, my father died. That was my hardship. 27 years old. I was 27. He was 60. My mother was able to, my mother and father saved enough money. Did she bought a place here as you know in Kendall,

lived in South Florida, went back and forth to Chicago and wintered down here for several years until she got tired of going back and forth and moved down here permanently. I had no hardships. None. Zero. for several years until she got tired of going back and forth and moved down here permanently. I had no hardships, none, zero. Did your father tell you that he was proud of you? No, never. Never told me he loved me, never told him that. We didn't do that. Wasn't done. Never, I remember saying it.

I never kissed my father until I kissed his forehead when it was in the casket And then random ten never talked about that before but that's the truth and I remember my father died a lung cancer He smoked himself to death Philip Morris unfiltered cigarettes post-World War II and I was pissed at him when he died I mean I was angry and him when he died. I mean, I was angry. And I remember grabbing my mother's head and Don's head going out on the steps when the casket was coming down, being carried by the Paul Bears. And they were crying.

And I said, we're not doing this today. We're not doing this today. And I didn't. Because I figured he should have stopped fucking smoking. He was getting my brother to get him cigarettes in the hospital. My brother was in college and I found out about it. But, no, we didn't tell each other that stuff. But I knew. I knew.

There was no question as to what, my father dedicated his life to us. So what was that? He wasn't getting the King's ransom, right? And he was going out, my father went to work on overalls every day, a pair of overalls and boots. Went to work every day like that. Drought a big ass truck, big huge truck.

So yes, we never, we never, we never, we never told each other that stuff. And I don't know anybody who did. And maybe they did. And we just didn't talk about it. I don't know that my family did that. You were angry at the funeral. Yeah, I was pissed. But you kissed him in the casket. Just his head in the casket, yep. Yep, only time. Did I remember that? And I don't feel we missed anything. He was there every day. He was at little league games, back with nobody. Parents didn't take off.

Now, this whole damn gallery of parents at every game, Matthew plays. It's like, really? Do you people work? What a blessing though, Michael, to not have to hear it. To just know it because the man carried himself places like really do you people work what a blessing though Michael to know to not have to hear it just know it because the man carried himself in a way that showed it to you daily yeah I don't know my mother said it that much we my

mother and I said it you know more times after 60 between 60 and 93 for her then we ever did from 32 to 60. How about your brother, Donald, do you share that with him? Do you say that aloud? No. No. No, but he's, you know, he's my biggest fan

and best friend in my entire life, my brother. Why wouldn't you just tell me? I'm here. I probably have told him two or three times. No more now. Matthew gets it all the time though, right? Not now anymore. Teenage boys.

Teenage boys don't give you much, Danny. They don't give you shit. They don't. They don't. They just don't. There's a little kid. There's a little kid, he was sad, you know. And I would say there were friends of mine who said, you know this is gonna stop at like 11.

You can start playing video games and become a tough guy. And he's not giving you any of that. And I was thinking, yeah, right, I'll be different. I'll be different. I'll be different. You're not different. Oh, but you are such a softie for him for you. You, I have admired both your combination of love and hard love because I just remember one time,

I don't even know how old he was, but he was young and he had done something in a restaurant. I was on the phone with you and you were like, I'm gonna go handle this right now. And I felt like Matthew was about to get a decent beating. Like, he got a few. He got a few ass whoopins. Somebody could come get me if they want to.

He felt like he was, he had done something pretty bad. My parents believed in switches. Parents from the South, go out and bring a branch in so I can beat your ass with it. I believe in that. Sorry. He didn't get many. I whipped his ass a few times though. A few, you know, a couple of times. He was really young. And I'll get in his face now. I mean, you know, I haven't, I've decided I'm not going to do it anymore. After he turned 12, I don't think

I've done it in two years. He, that's well, yeah, I was out of the 13. So maybe three years, I haven't done it. And it's like, okay, I gotta handle this differently. Because I wouldn't have wanted my father doing that after I turned like a leaven. I got my last weapon when I was 11. Well, I have to jump them. I have to jump them every now and then.

Can you explain to me a little bit differently or more how it is that you arrived at having the thought, I need to be here for Matthew longer than my father was here for me and what you were doing with this fear. How did that fear manifest itself at 57, 58, 59 where you're just saying deathly afraid of not living longer than your father. Yeah, because I don't have a wish to live. We just talked about this. I was talking about this somebody a couple of days ago, about living to 95. No, I don't I don't I don't long to do that. I don't have that ambition. It doesn't mean I'm going to be ready to roll out of here if I happen to live, but I don't have that ambition.

Most of the men in my family, only lately they've been living longer. So I never saw that. You don't see a whole lot of black men living a long time in most of our circles. And I'm diabetic. I got a heart disease. Obviously had a heart attack of 49. You know, I got the shit that takes you out early. And in this manifest itself, I was careless when I was younger. I didn't treat diabetes with the fear I should have treated it with.

I thought I was invincible. Like a lot of guys in my age who have means and and and access to healthcare and all you just think you know do whatever I want to do wrong. So when you mention I look skinny, I've law, you know, I weigh 50 60 pounds less than I did when I got married. married and that was 1997 so not all that long ago 25 years ago 26 years ago 50 60 pounds less Jesus I was 250 then I'm 192 now so almost 60 I got to be better that's just me so I can I don't want to die at 60 either like my own man so you know there's a combination of, but I'd like to be here, because that's the most important thing I do. My father never got to see his son's real success as he never got to live that long.

My brother hadn't even gone to grad school yet. I think my father died. So my brother's incredibly successful banker. My own man didn't get to see that. So I'd like, and just to share the time, just to go play around a golf, COVID taught me that. So during COVID, COVID was revelatory for me, Dan.

I said to a couple of people, dear friend of mine used to run Johns Hopkins Hospital and Howard, Eddie Cornwell, I called him and said, this disease is virus, where do I need to be riding this out? And he's like, I'm sorry, don't you have a blank in house in Arizona? Go there because density is not your friend. And I went to Arizona, I had a lot of, I got a lot of, a ton of doctor friends. And each one of them said the same thing. So I went to Arizona and Sheryl and I went there and then we took Matthew and he could go to school remotely. He was in fifth grade, sixth grade, whatever, sixth. And he had remote school every day. And we were out in the, I don't care what the people said about the numbers.

Matthew and I went to the golf course one day. Thank God golf courses stayed open in Arizona. I'm a totally blue state guy. It was interesting what was going on in Arizona as it went from red to purple to now blue. And Matthew said that people say you shouldn't be within six feet of each other. There's nobody within 60 feet of us. I'm like exactly. That's what we're coming here every day. We went to the golf course every other day and played nine holes and then my brother drove off from Chicago with his son and he and Jordan and I and Matthew we played golf every day every other day nine holes. And I said to him, when you guys are in your 50s, you're going to look back on this and say, can you remember when we spent all this time with our goddamn fathers?

And I said, hopefully we'll never have this kind of time again, but it was life changing, life changing. And I spent a hundred days in Arizona with my family. I have never spent a hundred days with my family. I said to Cheryl, she's meticulous about record keeping. I'm like, what do you think the greatest number of days we ever spent together was? Michael, you're always traveling.

You're always going somewhere. I don't want to be anywhere longer than four or five days. You're always working. And you're always getting on an airplane. I don't want to be anywhere longer than four or five days. That's just excess. I just don't, I get antsy, I'm not happy. But we were together for 90 days,

the last 10 days they left and I stayed in Arizona. And she came back with a number like, what do you think it was? And I said, I don't know, 60. She was like, like 38, it was like, minuscule. Because yes, because you know my life, you know, you knew me before she did. It's gonna be you, not Cheryl,

it's gonna be you've gotta go off, be you to the next thing. I don't think it's gonna, I mean, and she's got a big life too. Yeah, but this is what I chose. This is what I chose, is what I like to do. I was doing it before I met her. When she met me, it was like, this is what I do.

You gotta figure out a way to fit in this. I don't fit in your life. You fit in mine. This is what we got. What do you think? You we want to do this? Because this is how I roll. And I loved my life at 30, I got married almost 39 years old. You I already loved my life. Well, that's yeah, you can be very formed as a 39 year old or 12 year old bachelor who's had success. Yes, even though I was marrying an attorney who was a lot smarter and academically more accomplished in me But you're more stubborn and more formed and more caveman and so you're gonna be work work

I made it around me. I don't know there would have been the same if it was the other way around We had we had to support the the lifestyle that was making the most Yes Absolutely because at that point you had gotten rich and you didn't expect probably rich by the well But you're pretty I mean whatever it is whatever your dreams were is a sportswriter you have I had Surpassed you have surpassed no you have surpassed them but what million fold whatever the original dreams were I hadn't done it at 39 When we got married it was happening the explosion was happening then just because of where we were in the culture

It was going on in my life, television, radio, other media, Mitch Albaum wants to sit in me in a car. Do you own your internet rights? It was 1996 and I said to Mitch, what's the internet? Real conversation. He was always ahead of us. In NBA, you know what he was doing. I know what I was doing. So I wasn't rich then, but it was coming. And so no, so we were going to do what I wanted to do. It was a conversation. It wasn't a caveman thing. It was, do you want to go out and build 2000 hours? Miss Duke lawyer? What we're going to do this? We're going to do this little thing over here on television and that for five, uh, half hours a week is going to pay us tons and tons of money.

And yeah, and basketball and other stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And we literally discussed it. And I said, if I do this, I'm not doing anything else. I'm not going to the grocery store. I'm not taking out the garbage. I'm not doing shit. There's no honeydew list. If I take on all this, we got to have a 1950s marriage. Do you want to do that? What a romantic. I mean, put it on a home where it happens. This happened actually like a couple of weeks before the honeymoon, before a wedding, because we had to have the conversation because I could, the Chicago Tribune was saying, come home.

Oh, you are in a bidding war. Oh, you were going to be the big time. Come home columnist. They would have paid you tons of money took the space after I was offered they were all you they offered you the job you turned it down My hometown paper the paper I delivered as a kid growing up that would have been the the dream side of the face Was already on the side of buses. They had the ad drawn up. I saw it hold on tell me about this So I didn't know this so you had a bidding war for your services between the Washington Post and your hometown newspaper the newspaper you dreamed about being a column voice for when you were delivering papers David is what age were you delivering papers

from 11 to college okay so what happened there like what because your path would have been different you wouldn't have done the Tony well I could have Jay Marriotti thought Jay Marriotti thought of this before anybody. He, Jay Marriotti, the Chicago Suntimes column, this would have been my rival that we were, as you know, we're all colleagues. But Skip Bayless is your fault, you're the,

you're the, you're the ground zero for the virus. Well, I mean, Skip was doing his deal in Dallas, he wasn't doing it in Chicago, but I, Marriotti called me weekly, and he, you got to come home, you got to take this. He knew about it. And he, because he thought he said, W. G. is going to put us on TV. The next, this is a direct quote, and it's not for me. I wasn't smart enough. So from J. Marriotti, she said, the next Cisco and Ebert are not going to be

at the movies. They're going to be in the press box. How prescient was that? Not only prescient, Jay Marriotti could have been Tony instead of Tony and would have been far worse than Bayless and you and him would have killed each other. We would have. You would have, Jay Marriotti would have murdered each other on television. We actually liked each other a lot. That would have stopped.

That because, wait a minute, you know how important these television relationships have brought they are. The fact that you went Tony Cornheye, it's a miracle. Love one another. We do. The fact that he's among your best friends.

Yes, he is. That would not have happened with Jay Merrill. No, it would have been a different relationship. I don't know what it would have been. But he thought he was convinced that WGN would have done that. And we grew up, I grew up watching. I grew up reading Cisco and Ebert. Again, talk about transition, right?

You know, the pioneer. Jean Cisco was a columnist at the Tribune before he was on TV. Roger Ebert was a columnist at the Sun Times. I grew up reading Right, you're not a pioneer your copycat. You're a bogus fraud who steals from others and you're Elvis Far off from the best your L. V. Far off from the best but so so I was gonna go to I every day I agonized over it

I got I will tell this story. I don't think I know if I told it publicly. I get a call Back these are pre cell phones. I got a call, these are pre-cell phones. I got to call it a landline at home from the real goat, the real goat, me in B.A. And he says, why do I have to hear the cocktail party? You're thinking about leaving and coming home to Chicago right for the Tribune. Suppose I told you a father of a cocktail party

I hadn't told you. And I'm like, you never would have told me anyway. I can't believe LeBron made that phone call. Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha. The Brown was in grade school. LeBron knew, no he knew for four five. So, and I said to him, you know, I told him, I said, okay, here's the dilemma.

And we actually talked about it And I learned how much I didn't know about money Talking to what was the dilemma what was the dilemma the tribune's offer or the or the the Washington Post don Grims offer and I literally went through it with Michael on the phone And he has serious hard advice like like financial philosophy. Here's what you need to be looking for. And I learned then of course because at that point he's he's almost at the last dance here. This is the year before the last dance. So he's at the end of his basketball career

playing career. And you realize that guys like him and Charles and I are working on books and stuff that they know so much more Even though those guys are four years younger than me. They know so much more about Money and finance business Then we'd ever know a sports writers and we know a lot more now than we ever thought we'd know But at the time Dan I didn't have an agent. I didn't know anything So you stay at the Washington Post and at that time you and Tony are just organ You're arguing in the newsroom about.

On TV to a lot. You're in local television. Yeah, NBC affiliate. And the chemistry was immediate between you two because he was older. We didn't examine it. It was in the newspaper. Tony would write columns every Monday morning during a particular red skin season and he would use me as the foil in his column and that's how it started and it only would take the apparent differences between us and just, you know how he is, he would just blow them up. The apparent differences are white and black, you know, New York, Jews, South Side, Chicago and so Midwest East Coast Catholic Jew All the and I'm not Catholic but I went to Catholic School of my product of that educational system and Tony would take these things and he would juxtapose them He turned you into a character in print before you turn into a character in print and himself into one and

He did this and we had this in Washington when there was nobody else really knew unless you read the post. And Tony did it brilliantly and generously and hysterically funny as you know. But are you proud of the sports television show and enduring sports television show? Where does your pride reside?

The highest pride on what you've accomplished there. Is it lasting 20 years? Is it that you've been able to use a platform in a way that reaches and moves people? Like what are the greatest pride? That's it, you just stated it. Yes, 20 years that you gotta, this God is gonna be 22 years in October.

Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous. I don't know what we thought when we started about years, I don't know that I, you know what Dan? I don't examine stuff. People will say, why was it showed today? I don't know. I don't know how the show was today. Well, I wouldn't say with you that introspection,

that you stop for introspection to be something that you'll be right, that you have for because you got to get to the next thing Yeah, I don't see what examination does it just slows you down It just clouds your mind. You don't know you can have bigger examination of what you do I guess other people there other people charged with the responsibility of doing that. I don't examine everyday PTI. I don't, I've never have. There's some shows I feel are better than others. There's just some moments.

But yeah, using the platform, that's how I get, like I never thought I could transition from writing a column, which my columns had grown way too long. They go, you know, we should have been writing 800 words or so, some papers less than that. The Washington Post tolerated a thousand. I was writing 12,000 and 1400 work columns sometimes. And I wish sometimes I was less introspective.

I wouldn't stop. You have always been, you've examined this. You always have. Well, it makes me question. It makes me stop at some of the landmarks and question the worth of what it is that we're doing for a living in one place that I could do it very easily, right?

You came to this revelation late in life, but I've not had kids. Right. Right. I have been married to my job and making things for a long time and at stops along the way because I have missed out on some things in life that feel deeper. I can come to question the worth of what I'm doing for a living even as it makes me hugely happy at every turn. Yeah, I never have question what I'm doing, the worth of it. I figure, you know, people

have multiple skills, maybe they can't. I don't have that. I don't either. I got the words and I've known that since the fifth grade when I was sent to the board, the black board to diagram a sentence by Mrs. Richards and fifth grade and I could do it as well as she could. I knew then, okay, I can manipulate the language. I can be literate. Where'd that come from?

I don't, my mother, my father didn't finish high school. Not a, but buddy read every day My mother so there was reading going on around the house Oh God yeah, they had to be reading they had to be reading there was that that that that makes me crazy about Matthew It makes me crazy about all the whole generation makes me crazy It's hard to physically get a book in your hands I was made sad the other day when The last bookstore on Miami Beach. We've only had one, and then the last one

yeah, ends up getting, you know, not closed, but it gets smaller and smaller. Yes, yes. You know, yeah, I mean, so that makes me nuts. But I knew in fifth grade I could do that. That was something that was my skill. So I never spent any time examining, oh, should I be doing something else?

I can't do what else I'm gonna do. I can't do it when I'm gonna go for the dance school. But have you examined that you were responsible for one of the great sports television programs of all time? No, no, not a bit. Cause I think if you stop to do that, that's too much patting yourself on the back.

I knew I sound like a basketball coach now. The older I've gotten, the more I believe in Pat Riley, I believe in that. Yeah, but he's made, he can be a romantic at his core, but he's also, he can lament some things he's missed because he's so obsessive, compulsive about the chasing of things that you miss out on some things. I missed a couple of things. Yes. I think you miss out on something. I've missed anything. I've missed a couple of things. I missed Matthew's first book report. It was on Jackie Robinson. And I was in San Francisco.

I was out in the NBA final. So, oh wait, that would be exactly how many years ago today. And I had tears. I felt bad that I missed that. And I'm gonna miss basketball games. I missed his first. I missed a game., I miss basketball games. I missed his first, I missed a game. I went to a game. I took a day off on a Friday. I went to a game, when he was in middle school. And so I guess he was in eighth grade. And I went to a game and they

said, did you hear what Matthew did? The Wednesday, he's too bad you didn't come to Wednesday's game. I said, what did you do Wednesday? He had seven straight threes Wednesday. I'm like, what? I said, what do you do Wednesday? He had seven straight threes Wednesday. I'm like, what? Yeah, I missed that. And you missed a lot. Although now you can stream. What kind of shit is that?

Well, you quit complaining about old stream things. Yes. I'm not streaming anything. I don't care. I understand your story. You know when I stream nothing, you're in. If it's not the only stream that you have, as you're in stream.

You know what's on TV on my TV? If the on button produces it why are you so proud of being a grumpy old man why are you do you do you sit next to him no you can't be no you cannot so does Eric and Matt you know them you can call Matt Keller after this and say who is grumpier now today in real time how can you you not stop me? Michael, I'm gonna make you force, I'm gonna force you to, I'm gonna force you to do this for a second. Come on, come on.

You were responsible, your friendship, I, you, I, that's too much patent on that. You know, just stop for a second, receive this please. All right.

I'll do what for someone making me. A pupil talking to his teacher with gratitude, you two around love, birthed an economy, you birthed the family of people who work on that show, and all of you have made one of the greatest sports television programs there have ever been and one of the longest running television programs of any kind. There has ever been. I've never thought of it in those terms. I think Eric Rydholm did that. More so than Tony and me. I think of what you just described as the odd couple with

More so than Tony and me. I think of what you just described as the odd couple with Oscar and Felix he built it around you you guys were you guys They put us in the best car Eric put us in the best car. He built the car. We just drive it. That's accurate Look, I'm proud to be To have the platform every day and to raise the level of discussion in a in a in a genre where, you know, let's face it, it can wallow on the floor most days. I'm glad we raised the level of discussion. I will take that. I will take that.

You elevated it. Okay, I'm glad we did. But okay, then we move on. Then we have another day, right? And then life ends and you're kissing your dad in the casket and you've never told him that you love them and he's never told you because these things aren't to be talked about or shared,

even though there's joy in the talking about and the sharing. But it's okay because it worked the way it's supposed to. That toughness worked at that time. Is that, does that work today? No, it doesn't work today. We don't do that today. We don't go without that expression today.

But it was good that we did that. I don't, when I said to you I haven't had any hardships, I don't have any regrets. None. Anyone else I don't have, I don't have a bucket list. I've done all the shit along the way, because I was trying, making sure I didn't die before I could do it at 60. So I've done it.

I don't, what do I want? I want like an amazing apartment in Chicago, which I intend to get. So there's an ambition that's left. Other than that, it all has to do with Matthew, it all has to do with passing and forward. I don't have any bucket list items. I don't need to go anywhere or see anything else. I've done that. If there's some places I want to, I'll get them. Need to? No.

No. That list is, everything's checked off that list. And Matthew comes to you and wants to go to lunch. Asked to go to lunch. Yeah. How does that work? We just did it a couple of days ago. to go to lunch. How does that work? We just did a couple of days ago. It's great. Yeah, let's go. What's we do? You know, you know, I mean, I don't know that I examine my father at 15. I don't know that he can examine me at 15. The reason I ask you the question is because if you've spent so much time articulating what you just did, which is a fear of life ending before you get all of the moments that you want with your son and he's a teenager and he has a generational lack of appreciation that ends up being the lament of every parent is to be under appreciated because he has he can

I have no idea at this age not reading books. That's right. What it is you or your or his grandparents went through so that so that his life could be a very Different black life in America. Yeah, a very different black life from America than the one that you guys had. I am wondering how much time you are getting to savor all of those moments because Mike Wilbon, who had a heart attack at 50, and spent a week of introspection amid the fear before he got right back to work. You don't have to have any regrets to know that there are a whole lot of moments

in there worth saveroring that you're allowed to savor maximum gratitude style in a way that makes a life enriching and ways beyond money. But I think savoring is by its nature reflective. If you do too much of that, you're not looking forward. And so I have trouble letting go of chapters. I'm not good at realizing when the natural chapters are over awful at it and I've realized that which is too reflective but no to do this with him I got I got to Look forward Paying forward look forward, right? I mean, that's the way it takes. So now there's much more that as much more that

Happily. And every day, you know, he sends me clips every morning of something. I told him, I said, this looks like maybe the life of a producer. But he didn't want to do anything that resembles anything that I do. So who knows how I'll get into the city. Or work, or does he want to do work? No, we want to play ball. But your work ethic was pretty obviously handed down.

He's watching your work ethic. Doesn't get handed down anymore. It's different. These generations are different. I don't mean just my son. I watch enough other families to see, there's a disconnect. That's the generation gap thing.

I go back to that. There wasn't that disconnect between my parents and me. Even though 32, they seem like friggin' old people back then having me at 32 and 33 years old, my parents. But no, so I don't know that he sees any of that. There's, he's a smart kid because I know how he puts concepts together, how he can come to conclusions and see things

that I couldn't see at 15 or 18. He knows more about basketball than I knew at 24. He's known at a 14. We can sit and watch a game and he can see stuff. And so maybe I have dreams of him being a scout. I don't know. But all that, we do that. We do that.

We, you know, luckily technology allows us to be able to communicate even when I'm not there. So I haven't, I'm never there between, you know what I mean, you know how old he was before I saw him on Christmas day, he was seven before I spent Christmas day with him. I spent Christmas day with magic and stewards, God, John Bear, now, Jalen. There is stuff in this, well, well, well, you know, it's not, before I spent Christmas day with him. I spent Christmas day with magic and stores, Scott and John Baird.

There is stuff you missed, Wilbur. You might not regret it because you love your world. I don't regret it because I had to do, is what, what, what, seven threes hurts though. Seeing your son make that one, I don't know where it would be, whether it's the book report, whether it's the book reporter seven threes,

Jesus. Missing your son. Seven threes is a game and That he didn't brag about it. I'm proud that he didn't brag about it Well, they didn't run through the door say dad. I made 7-3's well You're not bragging about what I'm not asking you to brag about but the relationship with you and Tony is a unique one and if I know Tony and unique one. And if I know Tony and we're all his uncomfortable repressions lie, my guess is that you two haven't actually dug down on talking to each other very much about how

much you love each other, but you love each other. Like you love each other in a way that is deeply married love each other. Yeah. Yes. And I guess it is like you said obvious. It's probably obvious too. The women we are married to joke about it, Carol and Cheryl, they joke about it when they see each other are talking, it's not all that frequently. But I'm sure Tony's children have talked about it.

I've heard Michael and Liz make reference. But I don't, I'm not just, I don't come from self-examination. But why wouldn't you tell the old man how you feel about him? What can he know? What do we need to? It might also feel good, is it not felt, I've never told you any of the things

that I'm telling you right now. None of them have come out of my mouth before. No, they haven't. It's great. It's great. And thank you, but I don't need it. Like I know, I know it. I know, you know, it was fun.

The last time that he were really great, you know, 11, 12, 13, 14, when I would come and I'd wind up when you would have those great branches on Sunday and then we'd go Prime 112 and all of that, I know that, I know that. So I don't need to be showered with it. I've never had that, never had that need to be told. Nah, that's just, you know, I mean,

I'm, I guess, do I need to live in a time where people say everything? I just think it's fascinating. You are a good profile writer, you were a good column writer, the psychology and the sociology of sports are things that are relentlessly fascinating to you. I'm legitimately surprised as I talk to you

to hear you be that allergic to reminiscing or introspection or reflective, to hear you be that allergic to reminiscing or introspection or reflective, like to be a look tree, I think, a dangerous. Reminiscing I'm fine with, that just means I'm old. The other two, they just, they make you soft. They make you, I don't trust them. What's wrong with being soft? No, everything's wrong with being soft.

On the inside soft soft like you could be covered in armor. Everything's wrong with being soft last night. I said to Matthew. This is okay. This is it. We will love. It's okay for men to be soft. 130 in the men have to always be hard.

Yes. This is a 130 in the morning in the hotel here on South Beach. And we're talking about. So men have gone away. I'm going to tell you we're talking about basketball game. We're arguing about basketball. And I said to Matthew, he was talking about, you know, how I said, you know what? The guys I admired and then knew they played in canvas shoes. Their ankles weren't wrapped. They played 82 fucking games a year. This year, like seven players played 82 games in the NBA. And I called my son, I called him the P word.

Oh no. Oh yeah. Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. Yes, I said you know what you are? No. What is it?

You know what? You know what? I'm not going too far. This is there's not enough of that I like men who are soft and sensitive and can talk about their Feelings And that lead to feelings feelings. What do you win French? Can't lead to anything good feelings deep deep loving I don't trust it. I know That's that's but but that you know what there may be a difference there culturally in the ten years Yeah, the ten yes, well, but Hispanic men can be like this really. I mean I don't think I'm a normal Hispanic man. Oh round no feelings on your age the great number the Hispanic men

I know But much more like the black men I know and the men and men of color But much more like the black man I know and men of color who have run from this for decades. Yes, you are the exception, but I think it has to do with age more than culture. Maybe I'm wrong. I think it has to do with age. I think that there are many more of my African American male friends are much more likely to indulge in this who are 50. Well, for and not 60 or older, you know, it's like sweet dig

willy. It's like you go, you know, in the Spike Lee movies, when there's no sentiment and it was it was it was a sweet dig willy or somebody else who said, you know, when the boy caught the Koreans, I'm a boycott, you know, you bet, go boycott that barber who put that shit in your head. It love those characterizations because I think they're very real. I have said before that among men, insults are the language of intimacy. However, there is. Yes, but there is another layer that I wish for you to receive now and closing here on

what it is that we're doing because my gratitude for you is profound. Thank you. My love for you and the environment that you guys have created that you shared with me is overwhelming. It's not something that I can repay and it's something that I wanted to say to you when these things can still be said because I think it's something that I wanted to say to you when these things can still be said because I think it's important that you, Tony, Eric, Matt, that everything it is that I've been able to do professionally is only because you guys were putting the lights up in front of me that I could watch and steal liberally from because you guys gave us permission. I receive it.

I am honored by it, not flat it honored, honored. I am a little surprised by it because I don't have that level of self-examination on any level. It's probably bad. I admit that, it's probably a bad thing. So I'm grateful that you feel that way. I am grateful even more so if we have influenced the lives of the people who are just younger

than us, that they have taken something from this journey, I am. I don't readily see it or know it, or even recognize it. I'll give you that. But I think that there is something, I think there's no ability in not seeing it and acknowledging it and just forging ahead.

Because I think if you stand back and admire your own work, you're fucked up. I love you now get the fuck out of St. God's, you've got some sugar. Stoo God's, your chair, I should leave something bad in it, I love you now get the fuck out of Stugots. Ah, Stugots, you're chair. I should leave something bad in it, but I won't do that. Danny, thank you. Thank you, buddy.

Appreciate you, man. Love you and appreciate you. Thank you so much. you