The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Michelle Beadle

Episode Date: July 26, 2024

As a trailblazer in sports media, Michelle Beadle has run the gauntlet of everything that this industry has to offer. In this episode of South Beach Sessions from Los Angeles, Michelle takes Dan through the start of her career, the challenges of navigating a world where women are pit against each other for few opportunities, and identifies her strength in moving through tough times. Michelle and Dan also explore the nuances of dealing with anger and grief… and the power that loved ones have in helping us with those feelings. Listen to “Beadle and Decker” weekdays from 12PM-3PM ET on SiriusXM’s Mad Dog Sports Radio Channel and on the SiriusXM app. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tim's Maple Bacon is back! Featuring crispy naturally smoked bacon with a sweet and savory maple glaze and a 100% Canadian fresh cracked egg. All on a new cheddar croissant. Try Tim's Maple Bacon Breakfast Sandwich today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. It's time for Tim's! Welcome to South Beach Sessions, West Coast. We brought all the resources out here. Look, all the way from Miami, we brought all the resources. Michelle Beadle is here.

You can catch her now. Beadle and Decker, her name is first, not Decker's. It's Sirius XM, Mad Dog Sports Radio, and I've known her a long time on television, or felt like I've known her, but I really don't know if you and I have ever had a conversation where we've been in person. Nope, we've never been in the same city at the same time.

So this is the first. All right, well we're going to go, I want to go deep. I want to go deep because I want to know the roots of this. You are exceptional at television. I think you're better at television than I am. I've always been just okay at television and I admire you for a number of different reasons. One of which, you made Colin Cowherd better. When Colin Cowherd was at ESPN, I had some conversations with him about how to partner with people and whether he should partner with people and where, and this was after you, just on his radio show. But when I watched you on television with him, you prodded him and you did the right things to make someone who's a very strong

talent be better than he was. And it sort of was my introduction to you. This woman is very natural on television and this is not, not everyone is. There's a lot of stiffness, a lot of starch and it always seemed hugely authentic to me. So. Thank you. I wish I could say there was a, yeah,

a lot of studying went into it. Unfortunately, no studying went into it. And so I'm just sort of like honored and flattered when people say that. But at the same time, I think to myself, I don't know what else I could have been. Like, it's kind of it. Well, you prefer doing it though, right?

100%. I think, you know, you prepare as much as you can as far as the content or the subject, but really it's listening. I mean, you know it, you can have a thousand questions ready to go in your mind, but if this person takes it there, then you need to be listening. And nothing irritates me more when I'm watching television or doing television with someone

and they don't do that. And you can see them sort of thinking about what they're going to say next and it takes you out of it. And so if you're actually inquisitive, it's actually pretty easy gig. Yes and no though, right? Because you were very good about sort of removing the artifice of television. Like, I always thought that I was getting the real you

as if she weren't necessarily knowing that she was being watched, when obviously she knows she's being watched. But it would have been the same you that I would have found in a bar, you know, after a game. Yeah. Worst language, but yes, pretty much the same person. And so how, the path is a super unusual one, right? Because you were going to be a lawyer. That's what I want.

I wanted to be a lawyer since I was like six years old. And then as I got older, I wanted to go into politics because I was gonna save the world. Like every other person thinks they're going to when they're young. And when I got to the University of Texas in Austin, I'd been such a, like an overachiever up until that point. And then all of a sudden, I was living on my own basically,

in a dorm with like a couple of friends, no parents, no curfew, no anything. And I just got there. I did the first few semesters and I was like, okay, I did all the pre-law things you're supposed to do. And then one day I'm looking around, it was pre-law fraternity, and everyone in there was just wired differently. I can't even put it into words.

I just remember looking around going, this, no, mm-mm. And that was kind of it. And I really, I just sort of stopped going to class, ultimately dropping out with like maybe a semester left to go or maybe two. And I just left. And my parents were like, what? I mean, this is the girl that if I got like an A minus, it was a big deal and I have an ulcer about it.

All of a sudden I'm like, yeah, I'm not into it. And I didn't know what else to do because I thought I was going to be a lawyer for at that point, you know, 18 years to 12 years, whatever the hell it is. And so I just left. I really just left for like three years. I traveled for a little bit, made my way back to San Antonio, started waiting tables and my dad was like, what are you doing? But he's not the kind of guy that doesn't get in your face. He's not confrontational that way. My mom is, she was loud. And I'll never forget, my dad's like,

you really should go talk to my friend Lawrence Payne. And I'm never forget, my dad's like, oh, you really should go talk to my friend, Lawrence Payne. And I'm like, whatever, who happened to be president of the Spurs at the time. And I go there, just no idea why he's sending me here. And I'm like, okay, I sit in this room. Obviously I love the Spurs, but okay, no sports are not even entering my mind. And so he's sitting there, he's like, what is your plan?

Like, what are you planning on doing? I was like, well, I don't know. And all the dumb answers that a person with zero plan has. And it's basically him yelling at me instead of my dad to get my shit together. So then I'm like, well, could I do something here? Like, that's how naive and dumb I was. He's like, no, you need to go back to school and finish. I was like, what about an internship? So it's like, maybe you can be an intern. And that was kind of, I started bothering the broadcasting department. I would call, I would repeatedly call, and no one would call me back. And I was like, all right, I guess I'll enroll at UTSA and do all that.

And then ultimately they call me back. And honestly, it's like, I don't believe that things happen for a reason, but it's crazy to think had I not bugged them and had they not let me be an intern and ultimately let me try to be in front of a camera. Like, I don't know what I would have done. I really have no clue what would have happened. I want to cover so much of that. I've got a lot of questions. That's where your love of the Spurs comes from, that they sort of saved your path. They did. I mean, I already was a fan, but there's a difference between being a fan and feeling invested.

Like I love them, genuinely love them. Those three years though, take me through, you said your mom was loud, loud about you were doing the wrong thing or just generally loud? Well, both, but just like doing that, I think there was a disappointment because I was, you know, I'm the oldest,

I was such a good student, I played sport, I did all the stuff you're supposed to be as the good kid and now all of a sudden the good kid is like with zero idea what she's gonna do. When you say it I'm like thinking if their parents do they think you have a drug problem? Like it seems so far out of case. If you're maniac about law school of all things and you're good at it and then right at the end you're like, ah No, and the funny part was too is I was still nerdy I like I never had a sip of alcohol till my 21st birthday and at that point I was sort of working for a hockey team in Austin. Like it was just a weird as I'm leaving

Yeah, they just I think they were obviously worried How could you not be worried that You have to figure your life out. And I didn't have any answers. It was sort of like what happened to all the money in the checking account. I don't have any answers. And you know, when you're a teenager, your parents assume the worst,

but I never had those vices and I still don't knock on wood. And so it's just sort of like, I don't know, which is probably more frustrating as a parent to hear than I have a drug problem. It seems crazy. It seems crazy for you to hear than I have a drug problem. Well, it seems crazy. It seems crazy for you to say, I don't know, and then do the essentially flee. Yes, like leave, just leave.

And I remember I went to like Pensacola, I basically got in my Geostorm, put whatever crap I could fit in there, went to Florida for a little bit. I ultimately, I knew a guy, friends with a guy that played hockey for this minor league team. So went up to Canada, spent some time up there.

And then eventually I was just like, this is not, what am I doing? So I remember I told my parents, I was like, all right, I'm coming home. And I thought, ooh, I have a good idea. I'll do it on my own. So I'm gonna get on a Greyhound bus and I'm gonna make it back to San Antonio.

Ooh, was that a chapter? I learned a lot about travel and things that people have to go through that are forced to do it that way. They treat them like garbage and I made it as far as Dallas. And then as soon as we got to Dallas and the bus station, I remember the guy next to me who clearly was not okay and was urinating all over the sidewalk next to me. I was like, I called my dials, like, can I just have a Southwest ticket from Dallas to San Antonio? And I think they were just so happy that like, okay, something's about to happen, maybe. Pete And so, is that rock bottom on being lost? Anna Yeah, I think so. I mean, kind of,

because when I got back to San Antonio, I still didn't know what I wanted to do. I got a job. I mean, I obviously worked and got an apartment and did all that, but it was like, what am I going to do? TV, none of this. I wasn't a, I'm not an extrovert by any stretch. Despite what we do for a living, I think people still think that's weird, but you know, I don't, I'm not comfortable speaking to a big room of people and I certainly wasn't then, so in no way was this even on the radar. And that's scary to not know. I'm stunned to hear you say that you're not in any way an extrovert, you're not a wallflower, right?

You're not shy. But you present on, I mean, you present on television as extroverted. Yeah, no, I'm painfully introverted at times. Like, I have to tell myself, it's funny, when Bill Walton passed, I remember thinking to myself, like, I really need to live more. Like, I'm not doing a good job embracing life.

And it's weird that we, our brains work that way where we attach it to someone who we barely know, maybe you've met a few times. And then, but then you suck back into like, I guess I'm just going to watch six hours of crappy television and go to sleep. Like, I'm trying, it's so hard, but it's not natural for me at all. Because those are two different things you're talking about. Because a lot of people would look at what it is that we're doing and assume a happiness there. And I have struggled with joy for a long time. Like I don't do any of this, I started as a writer, right?

So all of this is by accident. It's not, this is stumbled into and I'll do the performative parts of it because it's where the growth has been, the evolution, there's been some fun in it. But I'm surprised to hear you say that you're a person who wasn't really made for television because generally speaking, when I'm watching people who are good at television.

That's what I think. I think, oh, you went to Syracuse and Northwestern. That's why you're here. And you learned how to do it. Yeah, you're good. Like I look at a greenie and I'm like, greenie is supposed to be doing that. That is, he can get you from A to B. He can do all the the boring read stuff that you have to do that's part of it to pay the bills and all that. And it's just like he's made for that. Yeah, so when I see people like that, that's what I think of as this was always your plan. Tell me about though the feeling of being among the other lawyers like the visceral the visceral in-your-body feeling of I don't belong here.

I remember them talking about something about like the starting salary at some firm. And let's not get it twisted. I'm not by any means like a hippie that's like, I don't need money. I love money. We all love money. It makes life a little easier. But I remember them talking in a way and they were so snotty about it. And my initial reasons for wanting to go into law is I really did. I thought I was going to save the world. Like I'm going to help the people that can't help themselves and we're going to start doing that. I even interned at the state Capitol

to try to like get my idea of how this all works. And as they're talking about all this, I was like, I think these people suck. And it's funny now because that's a young person's view of a room, right? Now I could be like, okay, they do suck, but that has nothing to do with what I'm going to do. I didn't think of it that way then. And so I just thought, oh, this world is this? Nope. Don't want anything to do with it. Oh, but I don't belong here. Such a strong feeling. Like it doesn't, you're talking, when you said it, you moved away from it. Like I don't like how this group of people interact with each other and talk. And it's so judgy.

I know it is. But whatever it was in that moment was a switch. But is that you, are you a person? I would have a hard time setting out on a goal, dedicating a great deal of investment to that's what I'm going to be. And then just one day a feeling arrives and I'm like, this isn't for me anymore. It kind of is. It's weird.

I guess a little, I make some rash decisions. Like I've done it with like real estate and stuff like that. Like, you know, I will buy a house and sell a house. My dog dies in one house, then I'm not gonna live here anymore. I'm selling this house. And I move, it's like, I do make sort of big decisions quickly versus I'm not gonna live here anymore. I'm selling this house. And I move, it's like, it's, I do make sort of big decisions

quickly versus I'm not a thinker when it comes to that. It's just like, whatever the vibe, my feeling is, I go with that. And it has worked, but it also probably hasn't. Is that following your heart? Yeah, I think it's just something that's like, I just feel it and there's no convincing me otherwise. And does it serve you always? Or you trust it?

Well, you just said it's not always because it comes with some scars. I mean, there are certain things like, I probably could have played the game better at certain steps, but to be honest with you, I'm glad I did things the way I've done them so far. Like, yeah, have I burned some bridges? Sure.

But I also don't regret those particular bridges. I feel like how I felt about either the circumstances or the people involved, I still feel that way. So there was no other way in my mind to do certain things. I've heard you talk and I haven't heard a lot of people say this in our interest in our industry about the politics of it being dirty Filthy something that I haven't heard a lot of successful people talk about it that way I think cuz you're really supposed to just be like, oh man, my life's kicking ass And so why why dwell on the negative and there's a difference between to me talking about things and dwelling like I don't dwell on

Anything that's happened in my past. Things happened, things were great, things weren't, and we're all where we are now. So, but talking about it, I don't see there's an issue with it as well because it does happen. Like there are shitty ways that people do things in every business, I'm sure,

but I can only speak on this one. And I've seen it, I've listened to it, I've had it done, watched people doing it, talking about how they're doing it. And it was always such a weird way to go about it, like manipulating the system or manipulating the press in a way. And I just, I don't know.

Look, if it gets people to where they wanna be, good on you, I suppose. But my conscience is clean. It sounds like you have some of the feeling around television executives that you did around those lawyers, where you're like, no, but I'm gonna stay in the industry because I kind of like how this is fun and games.

Because I love, when I'm working, I love the people that I'm working with, with the exception of one human ever. And I don't have to be around the people that normally are who I'm having an issue with. So, you know, as long as we part ways and kind of stay out of each other's way, it's been great. And yeah, I just, some are not great.

Look, no industry is perfect. And I'm sure we all have our complaints. I'm so enlightened now. You're different though, right? Yeah, definitely. You've learned some things. One of the things that I've wanted to do with this is put people who have accrued wisdoms

in front of the cameras to talk about the things that they've learned. Your perspective must be so much different. You have won at this industry, but you've also been battered by it. You've fought with it a little bit because you insist on getting what you're worth, and I'm not talking about money. Like just being valued. Like being respected and not treated like garbage. Yeah, it's weird. Like the money's great.

And sort of in a warped way, it's the scoreboard of how we all keep track of all of this crap. But it was more about sort of just treatment of everyone. And, you know, I never fought down, always fight up. That's my one thing. It's like you can't fight down. And I think this business also gets a bad rep for on-air people who were just, they treat the ones around them gross. And I was paranoid about that. Like that's not who I would want to be.

That's not how I would ever want to operate. But in hindsight, you probably wouldn't burn as many bridges if you just fought down instead of. I'd be a garbage person, but at least I would have, you know. You have no regrets though. You're a fighter. No, I don't. To not have regrets about burnt bridges

when this industry can be cruel about how it allows anybody to age. I mean, NBA is going to NBC, damn it, I burned that bridge, I napalmed it. I guess I'm not gonna get that job. But yeah, no, it's a weird small world, and we all sort of get recycled, and the suits get recycled, and ultimately you don't know who's gonna weird small world, and we all sort of get recycled, and the suits get recycled, and ultimately,

you don't know who's gonna end up where, which is also fun to watch and observe, but yeah, I don't think I've burned any ties that I would have regret. Folks, since the dawn of mankind, we've cooked our food over an open flame. We've debated the best way to grill, but one thing that's not up for debate,

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Excuse me. Sorry. My apologies. Especially for a person who, yes, I grew up in Texas, but I'd never even been to a rodeo. So it was like a new language, like legit learning a language. But I also worked for like the travel channel and I did a dating show for them, the Animal Planet. You remember Linda Ellerby, who was like the journalist. Yes, a journalist. So she was like an icon basically to women, especially at the time. She was one of those women that also just a ball buster. And weirdly was EP of an Animal Planet show that brought me on as a host.

And famously tough on television. Famously. Like in a way that you're like, almost could teach people at the time, right? Oh, a strong woman on television who's not having to be demure because she's getting in there and throwing elbows. Tough broad, tough broad. And she was, I mean, a badass. And she had me over to her

stunning, you know, six story townhouse in West Village. And at that point, you know, I didn't even really live in New York yet. I'd just gotten to everything. So I was just like, Oh my God. And she was just so cool. And I remember watching her. She didn't have to tell me anything. It was not necessarily advice in so many words. It was just so cool and I remember watching her. She didn't even have to tell me anything. It was not necessarily advice in so many words. It was just watching her. And I remember thinking like, okay, you don't have to be a certain way. And she also allowed dogs in the office,

which at that time was unheard of. And I felt that was really cool. But Linda Allerby was that- Your love of dogs is unreasonable. We'll get to that in a second. Well, unreasonable? Yeah, no, she was one of the first sort of bosses that I had that I was like,

oh, maybe that was a bad thing to have her early on. And then sort of be like after that going, where's Linda Ellerby? But that was a great sort of first start. And Animal Planet was just, it's a weird, it was like a new show about animals and just me at a desk, just reading a teleprompter. So there've been some weird gigs, you know, travel channel where you go to hotels and

here's my martini butler, check out this room, like weird stuff. And then ultimately made my way strictly into sports. You didn't even get into… Oh, Access? No, the breeding of greyhounds. Yeah, I did do that in Canada for that period of time. Which no, they were great days. The big ones. Yeah, I did do that in Canada for that period of time. Which no, they were great Danes, the big ones. Yeah, yeah.

Because the person that I knew, like their family friends, it was Peterborough, Ontario, and this was their business. And so I sort of like got to hang out and help. I didn't physically do much because it's all weird. But just to be around the dogs, I count that as helping. Well, where'd that start? The love of animals, the love of dogs, the love of dogs. Unre that as helping. Well, where'd that start? The love of animals, the love of dogs, the love of dogs. Unreasonable is the wrong word. But it's large. It's larger

than sometimes people might think is healthy. But I don't know. I mean, we had normal pets growing up. I wouldn't say we were like over the top or anything. But I do remember like being at a pet store once with my parents, like at a mall, and there was a pug, like a puppy pug in a cage. And I just sat there and started crying. And they're like, what is going on? I was like, this pug needs to be saved. Like, we can't leave this pug. And then all the animals need to come out of here.

So it was like this whole thing. And they're like, but we can't, we can't have a dog right now. Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay. And it was just always in the back of right now, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay. And it was just always in the back of my mind, like, I'm gonna save all the dogs, it's gonna be fine. And I just, they bring me just joy, like just immense. Also heartache on like some things

that you've ever experienced, but it's just the joy is so worth it, just to give them a great life. And you know, some of these dogs, like I like to adopt the older ones now that have sort of ended up at shelters. It's like, it's shit what people do to animals. And so if all I can do is give them a couple

of great years in the end, then that's my duty. I never wanted kids. So I have the money to spare to like, that's what I want wanna do with my cash. And so that's sort of been my, I wish I had time to do more or land to do more someday. Someday. My wife likes animals like that.

And most people I have met who love animals that way generally feel that the innocence and the purity of those animals makes them better than people. Like they're just, you like them more than people because there's not a lot of bad stuff there. No, if anything bad things happen to them, which then in turn makes me angrier again at humans. So it's like this vicious cycle of you're sweet and pure and perfect and you're an

asshole who hurt this creature. And like it just goes and goes and goes. Before we came on here, we were talking about some other stuff and you just mentioned throughout Casually, you're like, I'm not a trusting person. No. So what is the stories behind that? God, I don't know.

I don't know if it's, we watch too many television shows. Look, working in sports doesn't help, obviously. A woman working in sports, the things you see, the things you hear from a male-female relationship, like your own personal relationships. It's impossible to not somehow have that in your mind always. But I've just never been a trusting person.

I think it's maybe a cynicism that's just kind of inherent in me a little bit. I wouldn't say it necessarily comes from either parent, although my mom definitely was more of a questioner of people's motives and intentions. Never, I've never been, now I'm in a pretty healthy relationship, but before this, like not one person did I trust. So much so that I probably purposely picked out an unavailable human being so that I never had to deal

or be committed. Okay, but that's not paranoia. Like that, it sounds like, you correct me, I can't know what your possible roots are here, but I would assume that it doesn't begin that way, that you start trusting and then the things reveal themselves. You're not inherently a paranoid person who's distrustful.

No. That's learned. It's learned, but nothing had happened at that point special to me that would be like, oh, I see why she's like this. Nothing, really. Dumb little young relationships, what have you. I don't think I ever was fully invested in any of them either, which is probably a self-defense mechanism, I'm sure.

But just, I'm sure. But just I'm not a trusting, I don't think people are inherently good, which I know is cause for a 75 hour conversation. But I don't, I think a lot of us do bad things. If given the choice, we try to get away with things or be sneaky and, you know, it can be levels to it too. I'm not saying we're criminals, but just, you know, get away with stuff maybe. And I don't like that.

I don't like that at all. You have the Linda Ellerby tough broad stuff, you know? Like, I don't know. I'm not sure whether or not in sports television, you were allowed to show that portion of yourself, but whatever was happening behind the scenes, you clearly have that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you had to.

I think the funny thing is, is what we do is not rocket science, right? Like we're talking about sports. This is 99.9% of the time it's fun. Yes, serious things do happen and then they need to be addressed. But when that starts to get clouded by sort of the stuff behind the scenes,

it is a bummer to me. Because again, I didn't set out to do any of this. This was all accidental. So I didn't have like a five-year plan and a 10-year plan. It was just sort of like taking jobs as they came and like, oh, this sounds, oh, I'm going to Hawaii for a week for a job. That's cool. Or, oh, I'm traveling with the Nets for a season. That's fun. Like, that's how I looked at jobs. Part of that is good. But then the other part is when it stops being fun, which is what most

reality is for a lot of people, then I would immediately start to recoil and be like, why is this? More times than not, figure it out, move on. But when it starts to be like everything behind the scenes, like whether it be executives or pitting women against each other in the workplace for like the one job that exists, which is absurd by the way. But so, but so you look, look,

you were surrounded at all points by apes and cavemen. You, you might, like, and it's everywhere. It's on social media, it's sports fans in general, it's anytime you make some sort of error on television, God forbid that you make an error. I learned this at Highly Questionable when I saw the level of preparation that the women who were coming onto the show were coming on with because they couldn't make a mistake

and I'm coming out with mac and cheese in my beard and how unfair it was because they were not allowed a mistake. And you were before all of these women on ESPN when the cavemen were even more primitive than they're being, than now. They're the best, aren't they? I was the mouth breathers. I like lovingly refer to them. Yeah, but I also felt like, you know,

I'm already a sports fan. So we're consuming input all day long. Our phones are constantly like news breaking. Oh, did you see this? So it's like, you almost can't help, but be prepared for most of the types of shows that I've done in my career. You know, I try to do more of the fun, like react to things,

or, you know, Sports Nation was just a weird party of ridiculousness. But yeah, I mean, you do have to be, we're definitely under a different spotlight. Like if you get something wrong, you just got it wrong. Or they say nothing at all. If I get it wrong, it's like, this is why bitches shouldn't be talking about sports.

Like, okay, fair enough. Glad we had this reasonable conversation about it. Chad. But again, I also been doing it long enough now to know we're all full of shit to an extent. Like all of us. And none of us are infallible. I mean, some of the highest paid people in this business get it wrong on the daily.

And so once you sort of get that and you just try to be your best, it's a lot easier to deal with. But what can you tell us about the struggle, right? I don't, I I've asked you some of these kinds of questions before, and it feels like you don't want wanna rummage around in this bin too much because then the stuff will get taken and it'll become headlines and everything else. But, you know, for lack of a better way of saying it,

you were being put in power positions at ESPN that would suggest you were a bit of a pioneer. Yeah, I mean, look, I was the highest paid woman. Then I got another deal and I was the highest paid woman again. So it was like, oh, okay, they're investing in me. That's cool. And again, for a person who didn't plan it,

it's all funny. You're like, oh, cool, I'ma buy a house. I have no concept of like, this is actually a big deal. Like, this is cool. What bothered me about it was, and I was doing something like I loved, I loved Sports Nation. I mean, you couldn't have scripted a better show, any of the iterations that I was a part of, you couldn't have scripted a better show for me to be a part of on a network like ESPN.

Because I'm not a Sports Center anchor. I'm not like an X's and O's. Like Mina Kimes is a one of one. Like I'm not her. Like she, that's a different skill set. Oh, but you were perfectly cast for what you were doing. Exactly. So that to me was like, done. Then I have the chance to do NBA Countdown, which is my favorite sport. And so I'm just like, oh, I'm this, I'm living my dream right now. This could not be better.

And it was awesome. And I loved Jalen and Chauncey and Paul, and I loved everyone that was behind the scenes on that show. What I hated was there was Chauncey and Paul and I loved everyone that was behind the scenes on that show. What I hated was there was this con, even from before I got the gig, it was like, it was being scripted as, I'm coming after Sage Steele and these are all the parts that are behind the scenes making that happen.

I was like, that's not, that wasn't my recollection of it. I was up for a new deal that I always wanted the job, but you don't sit there and like go, well, I didn't. But there's nothing you can really do. You have to wait for the suits to decide. So it was like, okay, cool. Everyone knew. They were like, would you like to do NBA countdown?

Sure. Okay, so my deal is now going to include that, Sage is out. That's how it works, right? Then it starts up again. And it's like, good God almighty. First of all, it's always a woman that there's like four of us now that are just hating each other and eating at each other because we want this one little stupid carrot that they're dangling.

And it sucked. It also revealed a lot about people in that regard because I did not like it. And I did not like the feeling of someone being nice to my face and immediately running off and, you know, planting seeds and bad-mouthing me or trying to put me in a bad light. That does not sit well with me. And that is something that I will never, I'll never forgive. Just because I don't think if you're good at your job

and somebody sees that, you're going to have the job. And if you don't have the job, then you'll get the next job. I don't think that you should shit all over somebody and try to make them look horrible so that you can maybe have that job. And that to me was eye-opening. And there's been no job that I've come across that I thought, you know what I should do is try to ruin someone else so I can have it. Why would you want to do it that way?

I mean, unless you just are cool with being that kind of a person. It seems like truth and authenticity are kind of lighthouses for you. Yes, yeah. I don't have time or desires to be around fraudulent people or intentions. You've gone on television.

That's why I sit at home with my dog. We're just like sitting alone together. What a fool. You idiot. I don't have time for fraudulent people. And so you get into the vanity business where everyone's covered in different kinds of makeup for camouflage.

Just everything and just maybe they're one way on television and they're an awful person or vice versa. You know, that's the weird thing too is sometimes people play a character on TV that you're like you're kind of obnoxious. Then you meet them in real life. You're like, oh, no, you're actually fine. Why do you do it this way? I don't get it.

But yeah, I know. I didn't know that. Again, I didn't plan to do any of this. I knew nothing about this world. You came in naive. Almost 100%. Again, I didn't plan to do any of this. I knew nothing about this world. You came in naive almost. 100%. And you're, so you're the highest paid woman and still naive.

And still naive and pissed because things were being allowed to happen. And I kept thinking to myself, you give me all this money. Shouldn't you defend me? Like, shouldn't you have my back internally at the very least? You know, man, I don't expect much externally. And to not see that happen for whatever reason was just, that was my turning point, I think. And I remember there was sort of this feeling amongst the four of us on the show, Jaylen, Chauncey, and Paul and myself, where we kind of felt like it was us against the world,

because it was just this constant like the New York Post with some article about how this isn't working. None of these things were happening on our show. There was no problems. There was nobody being a diva. None of it. And instead of somebody from up top going out there and being like, this is all bullshit. So you can stop writing it or you can keep writing it.

But just so you know, it's bullshit. That's our statement. Nothing. Just silence. And it's really hard. Like I'm not a company man to begin with, but it's really hard for me to play the game if that's how everybody's being treated. And so I checked out, and I remember being in Portland during the Western Conference finals, I guess, and that was, it was like this moment in the makeup chair,

and I was just like, I don't think this is gonna last much longer. I hate to say it, because I loved doing it. But was just like, I don't think this is gonna last much longer. I hate to say it, cause I loved doing it. But I was like, I don't like it. You felt it was dead. Like you felt that this needs to be, you're not unlike what you're feeling around the lawyers, right? You're trusting the intuition of my body's telling me

something's not, no, this isn't how this should feel. This isn't it. I know we have contracts for reasons like that. So it was like a nice sort of, when this is done, I want to be done. Figure that out and yeah, got my little buyout and left. Did it hurt? Because I remember, I remember, and I've had conversations like this with Dan Patrick about being sort of surprised, our wives being surprised that we thought

that the company would care or that some... That's not even... Silly boy. What are you talking about? That somebody, that if they pay you like that, and if they give you that platform, they value who you are and what you're about. Is that not logical? I mean, well, I... Like here's millions of dollars, but we don you are and what you're about. Is that not logical?

I mean, well, I... Like, here's millions of dollars, but we don't give two shits about people. I too was naive about that, but I also had never felt disrespected ever by an employer. I was always sort of a good boy. And so... You were smart. Like, you sort of got to... Yeah, you were good.

Well, but also privileged. I wasn't running up against a lot of people who weren't built like me or who didn't have just an instant common connection to, oh, okay, let's line up here. You're wandering through a whole different place because I can't tell people what it was like to be you as a woman in this world fighting over a couple of chairs.

A couple of chairs. Like, how stupid is that? And we all have our strengths. Like, whatever, you know, figure that out. I mean, it all, the way it all played out after I left was... chef's kiss. How did you overcome it? Like, how? Because you were fighting? You were, you're not gonna be quiet. Like, not behind the scenes. You're not gonna be quiet.

You're not gonna just eat it. I mean, I left, I left, you know, you sign like a stupid little deal and you can't work at certain places for a while. And my intention was to just disappear for a little while. I was like, I'm gonna leave. And I traveled for a little while. And then, and I wasn't really mad at that point. I mean, it took me a minute.

I didn't watch, this is one thing I did do passive aggressively. I did not watch a second of the bubble year, the COVID, all this. I just checked out completely from the NBA. I don't know that I've ever gone a season in my life of like not watching basketball. I watched nothing. So I guess in that way, that was my little form of, I don't want to deal with any of it. But I also realized, like, I took myself out of that world, so I didn't have to see anybody, I didn't go anywhere. I left the country for a while.

And when I did ultimately come back, COVID happened. So it was like a built-in, like, oh, I'm still not going anywhere. Which, again, I'm one of the few people that love that. Because, oh, I can't leave. Well, but it seems like you would get some great healing, too, from sort of leaving. Yeah.

So you never expect any of this to happen. No, you don't. You become wildly popular, and then the things you're doing are the profession of your dreams. Yeah. But some stuff that's happening isn't what you imagine your dreams would come with. Yeah.

And then you check out for two years, not unlike the, except less lost than you were when you checked out for three years after law school. Right? Now I'm good. Now I got a big, nice, beautiful home here in Los Angeles. My mom was living with me. My brother and his girlfriend were living with me.

Like it was, you know, I had the dogs. It was a good, it was a great existence, honestly. But I did, I disappeared. Like I truly disappeared. And- Did it sharpen for you the things you wanted? It actually made me realize, because I think part of this world, any sort of business where you're front and center and you kind of your face and your voice is who you are and that's

how people they think they know you and all that. I do feel like your identity and your value becomes entwined with that. So if I'm not working a big giant job, well then I'm worthless. Like that's kind of what I think our brains, my brain used to tell myself. And that's probably why I used to take every single job and I hustled and I would work, work, work, work, work. Because I was like, no, I have to keep going. This is the only way I'm worth anything.

What this time off did for me was made me realize like, I don't have to do it that way. Like, I'm going to. What this time off did for me was made me realize I don't have to do it that way. I'm gonna do things that make me happy and that with people that I enjoy spending my time around, we all gotta work to an extent, but I went into it with just sort of a calm. I know what I'll put up with and what I won't.

I mean, that is for sure. But I also don't think I'm gonna run into those types of issues anymore. I'm older and, you know, I don't see things as like cutthroat or I have to have a job and now we're all protecting it like it's my own little meal. Like, I just don't. I think the jobs that I choose to do now are just relaxed and fun. And if they stop being that, then we'll figure out what the next step is. But I don't have the stress that I had at all

that I had before. That sounds super adult. And I have found that when the further I move away from work being too much of my identity, the more complete or happy I feel or fulfilled. But it took a long time to learn that. I have found later in life that competition, it doesn't, I don't see it as noble the way that I used to.

I don't even feel it as healthy. But somebody can say, well, he's not hungry anymore, or he's satiated, or he's lazy, or whatever it is, but I have gotten, the more removed I get from having too much of my identity wrapped up in this, the more balanced I feel, because what this is is, not this, but most of it is pretty stupid. This isn't stupid, this is uncommon depth right here.

This is wisdom that will echo across eternity. But most of this that we do is pretty stupid. And when you're young, don't know yourself and your identity is tied up in it, it's the most important thing in the world. Oh, and look, there are things that bother you then and it's been several years now. It's like, oh, you got fired. I know I didn't get fired. I know exactly how everything happened.

But you can't sit there and have that argument over and over again with some nameless person. That can start to internalize. Or, you know, if you're not a DSPN, you'll disappear. You're a nobody. These are the types of things that like originally and at the beginning, I think probably maybe stewed a little bit, but far, far less time than I thought.

I thought for sure that I was gonna have more of a struggle, and I didn't, and it was kind of shocking. Bumble knows it's hard to start conversations. Hey. No, too basic. Hi there. Still no. What about, hello handsome?

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that you and I had that made me come to realize, and I didn't realize it until then because there was something that we were going back and forth on something I had done on the spurs, some rant or something I had done. And I just remember what came after you when I gave people permission, made me immediately back off. Just by what, it was some small thing.

It wasn't any, it was just some silly beefing thing that I don't remember the details of. And clearly your social media existence is such that this wouldn't even register because it was small comparatively to what you were dealing with. But it made me realize in the moment, oh, I didn't realize what this person's social media experience is. I should not have welcomed any of that toward her.

Oh, it's not, that's the leeches or the, yeah. No, but I remember not having real light around, oh, wait a minute, I thought this was a wildly popular person. I didn't realize how many angry, sad men there are in this world who are now going to. It's weird. Because it was, I'm not gonna say it was the advent of social media, but I'm not sparring with women in public

on any sports subject before this. And so I remember what just, without knowing the details of this, I'm not sparring with women in public on any sports subject before this. And so I remember what just, without knowing the details of this, I'm telling you, I remember apologizing to you about, because I welcomed something into your life that made it a little more unpleasant because of how poisonous these things can be. It's funny because, I mean, look, I just went through it the other day with my friend, Peter Rosenberg. We're having the same conversation about the kicker for Kansas City. I said what I said, he said what he said.

They're the exact same messaging. And my mentions were a cesspool. And I was just like, it almost felt like a, I still got it moment for myself. Although I pissed him off just by doing the exact same thing that you did. Real strengthen that though. So now, oh, but my God, okay. So you have now got a much healthier relationship with seeing what this thing is. Yeah, mostly I don't even look. It's weird, Bill Simmons of all people,

like a thousand years ago. And I remember I was engaging more with like rude people and stuff. And I think he saw that and he like pulled me aside. I was like, just stop, people and stuff. And I think he saw that and he like pulled me aside. I was like, just stop, put a tweet and never go back. Never look at it. Never look at the mentions, the comments, whatever,

which is easier said than done, obviously, especially in the beginning of this dumb thing. Now we've all kind of gotten a little bit used to it. For the most part, I don't see it unless it's just over the top. But yeah, it's much healthier. Cause it doesn't matter. It really does not matter. Oh, but you've learned this, right?

Like, so when did you realize, when did you start realizing your power, your strength, your voice? When, when, and it may have been before any of this professionally. I, you know, I don't, I don't know that I recognize it at all. I think all I can do is just sort of, I have my own, I'm self-contained, and I'm just sort of trying to figure everything out like everyone else, but I also, I'm 48 now, I'll be 49 in October.

It's like, no one's gonna push me around at this point, and no one's gonna make me do things I don't wanna do. I've been working in this business long enough, I know I have a voice to that extent. Even if it's a brand new job with brand new people, like I do bring years of experience at least to the... Funny thing is I don't see myself that way, like as a person that's been doing this for a long time. I still kind of see myself as like the bumbling idiot that just sort of fell into this job.

And so every once in a while I'm reminded or I'll have like a young person be like, I would rush home from school and watch Sports Nation and you're like, oh, thanks. That's cool. Like, I have to remember that sometimes. But I think for me, it's just the comfort of knowing I'm not going to do anything I don't want to do ever, like period. I had that for most of the time. But I've definitely fluctuated, you know, if you really want a job really, really bad,

you're like, oh, I guess I'll do this dumb job on top of it, whatever. But now it's like, no, I think financially, like, we're okay. So I'm going to just take the jobs I want to do and avoid everything else. You feel stronger? Like, you feel... I do. I feel, for me, anything that's going to make me feel down or sad has nothing to do with work. I know that. And that's beautiful. Like real life stuff, yes, that can be heavy. And that

can get me off my path for a second and just trying to figure things out. But work stuff, I mean, it puts it all into perspective. Like I lost a friend last year, I lost my mom last year, like, lost another dog last year. Like, nothing any of this shit is, that is, it's all in perspective at this point. All of it. And I know that's cliche. But it really is. It's like, it's just a job. Well, but you're saying it's cliche. You had to learn that sort of hard earned because at one point when this was the center of your identity, it's not just the job. It's you. It's you.

Especially if you weren't ever angling for fame. Like if you just sort of end up there and now what you see swirling around you is wildly confusing. Yeah. It's weird because I don't, it was, I mean, it was always a little odd, you know, to be at like a restaurant or with your friends and stuff and people know, or to go on Letterman. Like I went on Letterman. Who the hell am I?

And by the way, the other guest that night was Donald Trump. How bizarro world has the entire planet become? But like, like weird things that I've gotten to do as a result of this world that I didn't know existed, I do sometimes have to be reminded of it. Like I forget. I forget a lot of stuff. And somebody else might bring it up. I'll be like, oh yeah, we did do that, didn't we? That was fun. It's almost sometimes like I don't think I've taken it for granted. I just didn't take it as seriously.

Well, but that's your unusual in that usually the great many people who surround you, who would be at your status, it was an ambition of theirs. Right. Like they treated that. However, you were treating law school. Yeah. God, I really screwed up. Right?

What if I was supposed to save the world? What if I screwed that up, Dan? I was supposed to do that. You could have. You could have. And instead you wandered away and for three years were lost and ended up on a bus penniless and couldn't get further than Dallas to get home. It's a real rags to riches story.

I want to talk about this bus ride though. So after three years, after three years, you're, so you're realizing as you're, as you're driving, I've, I'm not thrown away the last three years, but that's it. I've reached the end of the road on being lost. It probably was like, it was probably like two years and some change at that point. Cause when I got back to San Antonio, it was not immediate, like, cause I, what am I, you know,

I have no leg to stand on. No one is interested in anything I have to say. It's just, what are you planning on doing with the rest of your life? But yeah, the bus was, my God. I remember the manager of your life. But yeah, the bus was my god. I remember the manager of like a bus station in Little Rock, Arkansas. First of all, it's a 40 something hour trip from Peterborough, Ontario, back down to San Antonio, because you stop every three hours and they would

just yell at people and treat them so horribly. And like if you tried to ask to get something, no, we're not getting anything. An Amish family was standing in the aisle for like four and a half hours from wherever, somewhere in Ohio to the next place in Ohio. And I'm like, what even is this? As a girl traveling alone, I'm not sleeping. Obviously, I'm not going to go to sleep because I don't know who's on this bus with me. So you're just like wired and like you're stopping at bus stations at three in the morning for the bus driver to take a pee and you're just like wired and like you're stopping at bus stations at three in the morning for the bus driver to take a pee and you're just like, this is the, this is shady. And that's fine. But it was the way people were being treated. And that that's what probably bothered me more than anything.

Because, you know, at the end of the day, I knew I don't ever have to do this again. Like, I'm glad I did it. But this is how every like most people, this is the only version of travel they have. And we treat them like that? Like, I would get so mad and just be infuriated, just silently sitting there. Because also, I don't want to make a scene because I don't want to be murdered. So I'm just like, can we just get to somewhere, please? Thank you. But I'm glad I did. I mean, the best part about it was, was the bus from Peterborough, Ontario to Toronto was beautiful. It looked like a

tour bus. New carpet, everything. I was like, oh, this is going to be great. The minute we crossed into the US, it was just garbage. I was like, dang it. I didn't even know it was too good. Straight downhill. Yes. That was eye-opening as well. I'm sure they've come a long way since then. And so you get home though, and disappointed parents are still wildly loving parents. Oh, very, yeah.

No, they've never ever been anything, but honestly, they've been great parents. They told us we could do whatever we wanted. My mom and I, we came to the States when I was a baby. So she was my best friend, because she didn't speak any English. And so we learned to speak English basically at the same time. She was learning how to read with me, like a Dr. Seuss book,

which is not the easiest book for a person learning English right off the bat. But that was sort of like the bond of that is just so different than a normal mother-daughter bond, simply because she's trying to survive in a country she knows nothing about. And I'm her only ally seemingly at that point and I'm a baby, like I'm a child. So you know, it was always, I don't think I could have ever, I know they were disappointed, but it was never to the point where like I felt it. I mean, I was probably more disappointed in myself, honestly, but they always were great.

And again, sometimes I think like, if this hadn't worked out, I don probably more disappointed in myself, honestly, but they always were great. And again, sometimes I think like, if this hadn't worked out, I don't know what I would have done. This could be a different story altogether, but I'm sure I would have figured it out. I'm pretty resourceful. I'll figure it out. We bullshit our way through this career.

I'm sure I'll figure out another one. I have spent a lot of time, too much time I would say, on this pod recently talking about grief and breaking down, and you mentioned the amount of loss that you have had recently, and you're telling us about the relationship with your mother. So how did you navigate, and how are you navigating

all of that, because I was just telling- This son of a bitch is gonna make me cry. No, no, I hope we don't do this, but I was just talking to my wife about this before I came over here because it's been 10 months and also it was the horror of the months before that where I knew I was gonna lose my little brother and what I was saying to her,

because there's just always a little bit of sadness on me, even if there's something joyous or something else,'s just always a little bit of sadness on me. Even if there's something joyous or something else, there's always a little bit of weight of sickness. And I was telling her the other day, like when I'm jumping rope, I feel it as a physical weight in my stomach. Like I can just, and so I'm just, I have a hard time getting it off of me.

And so I've just been asking a lot of people who have dealt with it, like, and cause I know it's different for everybody, but how is this going for you? What have you learned in here that I might be able to have that could apply or also help others because I found that here, for some reason in this setting, people talking about this has reached other people who have sort of pushed it down and want to hear something about what this experience is. Because look, it unifies all of us, like the loss, like all of us, that's the one, I mean,

you can think whatever you think, believe whatever you think, rich, poor, black, white, it doesn't matter, this is the one thing we all experience at some point. And so there's no, I don't know that there's a right way. Like I'm sure I should go to therapy, I'm probably a prime candidate to go to therapy. And I haven't, but it never leaves me.

Like, I'm never gonna not be sad, period. And if it's a yoga class, I don't like yoga classes that are in silence or dark completely, because at the end I just start crying by myself, which is a crazy person. And I get angry and you know between my mom and my best friend's husband who I had known for 20 something years who just died out of nothing, nowhere, wasn't sick or anything. There's a lot of anger still for me. Like I want to pick up a phone, I want to call and talk to both of them, I want to call and talk to my mom like and I'll never get to do it again.

And so I just try to push it away. I mean, it's probably what you do, right? What is the choice? I can sit there and lean in, and every once in a while I will. If I'm by myself, I'll just, let's just cry, get it out of our systems. But otherwise it's just pushing it away.

And then you sort of like, okay, it's gone. And then it comes back the next day, like, oh, right, this person's gone forever, so's gone. And then it comes back the next day like, oh, right, this person's gone like forever. So keep going. And you know, it sucks. Like the things I'm going to do that she'll never see. That sucks. I don't know.

And I hope this doesn't sound like I know anything. But avoidance is not healing, right? And so when you say you get this anger and you don't want to do therapy, I don't know that I'm soothed at all by it, but I haven't been able to sort of slither around the pain of it, right? Like I have to sort of talk about it. I've avoided people, like I have avoided a great many people, but the ones that I'm connecting with here, like it's a substantive sort of thing because avoiding it, Marcellus Wiley, we both know him.

We did one of these and he's one of the toughest human beings I've ever seen. Obviously he's telling me this through gnarled fingers that have been destroyed by helmets and everything else. He's like, yeah, my mom dying when I was young. Like I, nope, avoidance is the way I'm gonna handle that one. There's no solving it

So I'm just gonna keep moving around it and maybe I guess it's different for everybody But it doesn't it I don't I can't avoid it like I you when you say it's like you Say you don't want to go to therapy because You can't avoid it in therapy. You can't avoid it and And my non-therapy brain says, what's the point? What's the point? You're not bringing her back. I'm already sad. I'm gonna be pissed for the rest of my life.

What can you possibly do for me? And I get it. Everybody who's been through therapy that I know that truly embraced it and worked on themselves, don't regret doing it. Like they loved that they did it. But there's this arrogant part of me that's just like, there's nothing you can say to me that's going to help me be any different. I'm just going to be

pissed and sad. Doesn't that make you more helpless though to not be able to ask for even help? But then what's the hell? What is that? I don't know, right? I don't know if somebody in therapy can help you. Like talking about this with Stan Van Gundy here, he's like, he needed to talk about it. And again, this is different for everybody, so I don't want to seem like a counselor or anything because I don't know anything. But one of the things that I have not felt, I've said this before here, that one of the great graces and blessings in the horror that was the last few months of my brother's life is that I was able to say some of the brother's life, is that I was able to

say some of the things that made it so that I wouldn't carry guilt as one of the stages of grief. But I don't have anger. Like when you said anger. Yeah, I have anger. Like that one, I don't, and I don't know where you put that, but that must be something that makes you feel even more helpless. Like who am I angry at?

Because that's the, just, who am I? I'm not a religious person. So I don't have any like anger towards a God or anything like that. It was such a dumb death. Like she was grabbing clothes to come stay with me for the weekend and missed a stair, fell and never woke up.

That's it and gone. And so I'm angry. That was it. And gone. And so I'm angry. That was it. And my last visions of her on machines, like dying, and my brother rushing to San Antonio to get off the plane and say goodbye, it was just like, this is bullshit. But yeah. That, um, the suddenness of that, that part, like, I would, that's when I tell you that I'm grateful for the horror of the machines. Yeah. If it had been taken from me one day to the other without any kind of warning, then I would, and it would tap into, like, well, there was so much left to say,

so much left to do, and then I don't know how I would have avoided guilt and anger. So I guess I should be saying, I'm coming from a position, I mean, it's a weird thing to say, of privilege of saying, well, guilt and anger aren't the ones that I have. I just have a sickness. Like it's just a physical weight that is dark and unavoidable. that is dark and unavoidable.

It is a gut punch day to day. And I don't know how my best friend's doing it. I don't, I'm just like to just have someone taken away. Like it is, that's the thing too. I think when you're younger and you know, you know people are gonna die, you lose a grandparent, whatever, and your life goes on. But then it starts to become the closer circle and you just realize like, oh,

you're just gonna be sad forever. I mean, you live your life and you go and do, you travel and you have your loved ones, but it's just gonna be there. And so I think they don't tell you that and we just figure it out while we're doing it. My wife actually actually this is unusual and that my wife said to me very early on She said to me very early on that I feel that one of the reasons here is I'm here is to help

Help teach you about death because she's had a lot of loss in her life now keep in mind I'm not thinking at this point about my little brother like that. I'm thinking about okay my parents right, I'm gonna lose my parents here at some point. And then in the middle of that, she lost a loved one to suicide. And one of the immediate things that she said to me, like immediately, and keep in mind, I'm totally naive here. I don't know, I don't have any experience with grief whatsoever, is, hey, this is a part of me now.

This never leaves. This, what is here now is here and we're gonna live with this because this is here forever. Yeah, it's now part of your chemical makeup. And my brother and I are both very similar senses of humor and we deal with it, again, probably he probably should have therapy too.

But we deal with it like with dark humor. Like we just, you know, when strangers come around or like when my boyfriend comes around for the first time, he's like, and he's a funny person and a dark person and a sarcastic person. He even is like, Jesus, you guys are dark. And that's, again, that's sort of how we deal with immense sadness.

Yeah, but is there any solace in the pain being something that reminds you that the love is still alive and that the love will not, if nothing else, the love will not die? No, no, and you know, like you'll never forget. I think it's just the anger of like never getting to share anything again. Like send her a picture of my dumb dog doing something stupid that I know she would have loved or like when I travel and anytime I'm in the car, that would have been a call.

It's just, I think it's that. And so knowing that every day I feel that, yeah, that the love is forever. And I think I would have had guilt because before like a couple of years before I'd been so angry at her. She started to like think things that she had never thought before. She started to become like borderline fascist

in her beliefs and we would just butt heads and butt heads. And I remember I'd be like, I was so angry. I was like, Mom, you have to leave the house. You can't live here anymore. Like it was the whole thing. We had made up and I explained to her one day, I was like, you were the hippie that handcuffed herself to the American embassy during the war. Like that's the mom that raised me. You're the person that told me growing up in a small town in Texas, like my dad is very diplomatic. He's like, choose your battles wisely. You know, you don't have to fight every fight. Meanwhile, when I was young, I was like, I'm fighting every fight. And so my mom was like, fight them all. That was her. And when she started to

think differently, I was just like, so taken aback and upset about it. And we would have fights about it. And the one thing that I'm so grateful for is that we had mended that. Like, we were not doing that anymore. Because it was, I mean, I didn't talk to my whole family for like almost a whole year. And it was just like, you know, I'm glad for that. Because that, if I would have had sadness, anger and that, oh, disaster. And that? Oh, disaster. I don't know what is going on in this country

that that story is not unique to you when that story in every family where you're recognizing things about family members that you never knew before because of everything that's happening. You just conjured for me how weirdly alone I felt among loved ones when I was wrestling ESPN on the Trump stuff and how many weird,

like just how many weird things that were revealed by it that were heartbreaking to me, like in a variety of different places Where someone you love as deeply as this you're not speaking to them for a year because you're like, how can your life? Experiences be so much different than my life experiences that we're arriving at something and I'm fighting I'm fighting ESPN I'm coming to New York to see if they're going to, if I can work with the new president and if he can work with me because I'm complaining about,

like, we can't sit out, you know, like, I can't as an exile sit out kids in cages, brown kids in cages, and somebody saying- Gunna feels like a thousand years ago. Yeah, right? It's such a quaint or charming time back then. Yeah, to feel in the middle of that somehow not supported by people that I thought would love me

no matter what, just loved ones. I was weird. And it made you just sort of, for me it was confusing because I was me because of the way she raised me. And now that person just didn't seem to be there anymore. So it was sort of like, what is going on? And then you start thinking,

am I gonna start thinking this way in like 20, 30 years? Like, is it inevitable? Like, it just got easier to just not talk. And it wasn't necessarily done with anger. It was just easier to just, let's just all avoid each other for a little bit. That's brutal though, right? Like that's- Oh, it sucks.

We're a close family. And it's not the way that you do things, right? No, that was my brother and my mom, like I talked to on almost a daily basis. And so for that to just kind of go away for a bit was a lot. And it got healed just, I mean, not really healed, that too avoidance was the just let's not talk about it. We're not going to actually solve it or address it. You're getting the theme here, Dan. What do we do with problems? We just move around them. Don't talk about it. We're not gonna actually solve it or address it. You're getting the same here, Dan. What do we do with problems?

We just move around them, don't talk about it. This relationship's over? Oh, then it's never happened. That's so ideal. No, you know what happened is my dog Leroy, the OG pug, he died and I was just like a bit traumatized from it. And I had just sold one house in LA and moved into another one. I wasn't even unpacked in the new one yet.

It was just, I wasn't really sleeping yet there. It was just sort of like, okay, this is my new, this is cool, I like it. And he died and I was like, well, I don't want to be in this house anymore. So I put that thing on the market and I call, I remember I called, my dad answered, and I was a little hysterical. And I call, I remember I called, my dad answered, and I was a little

hysterical. I was like, Leroy died. And my dad, who has the bedside charm of like a corpse goes, well, he was getting up there in age. No, thanks dad for all the soothing. So then you wonder why I have cold side. I was like, okay, can you put mom on? But I hadn't spoken to them in a while. And then my brother called because they told him, and there was never a sort of come to Jesus, like let's all pow wow it out.

It was like Leroy died. We all became part of each other's lives again. I got in my car with the other two pugs and I drove to San Antonio. And it was from there that like sold that house and I never came back here. And it was just sort of like it. Bought a house there and I drove to San Antonio, and it was from there that like sold that house, and I never came back here. And it was just sort of like it, bought a house there, and I'm rash.

And then, yeah. And I liked the idea of being in San Antonio for my mom, for my dad, like I wanted to be close to them. She dies. Now I'm like, well, why would I be in San Antonio? I've not really been there. I've been in New York and here. Oh, you won't go to the house.

I mean, I don't want my dad's still there. Like, I will go to pick up the dog, perhaps, like my mom's dog, but I don't want to be there. No, that's where she died. I don't want to be there. Wherever you're going, you better believe American Express will be right there with you. Heading for adventure? We'll help you breeze through security.

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Visit amex.ca slash ymx. Benefits vary by card. Terms apply. Can we sort of examine the idea of how you are shaped by the transaction that you just described, which is my dog dies and I'm so broken that I'm going to seek soothing from the people who love me, who understand me, who understand me, who know my love of dogs. And what I met with is, well, he was getting old.

So Bob Beedle. Okay. So, but I mean, you've been shaped by this, yes? Oh, 100%. Yeah. It's weird to be the product of an Italian woman who, you know, she wasn't the stereotype of like huggy feely, like despite what people think, but she would give you everything. Like, literally, here's her last piece of food.

That's what she would do. And then my dad, who's just like, remember who you are, pumpkin. Like, they're just very, I don't even know how these two humans found each other and stayed even remotely close to each other that long. But it was a, it's a weird dichotomy of two personalities. She was hot and fiery and wants to fight about everything,

and he would really prefer not to, but he was a very successful businessman and just a bizarro world couple. I don't know if that's partly my take on marriage. I don't care if I ever get married, it's fine. Some people, I guess their parents have this on marriage, like I've never been one, I don't care if I ever get married, like it's fine. Some people, I guess their parents have this ideal marriage and that's why they think they should also be married. It wasn't a great marriage and it wasn't the worst marriage and it wasn't the best, it was just, it was a marriage. They divorced and then they remarried each other.

So I have no real, that is my attitude about, eh. And so how did it inform then your relationship history through your deciding I don't care if I get married and all of that. Yeah, I don't see the need, honestly. I mean, you got married in later age. Oh wait, I'm not judging it. I was always anti-married.

Like I was completely, I was always resolute on this is unnatural why, who, what, not a lot of species decide to be together forever, right? Yeah, but I, yeah, I got a champagne bottle over the head and like, it sort of realized I was wrong about a lot of things that I thought I knew. But yes, I'm not, I'm just wondering how their relationship then formed,

who you became in terms of what you sought or what patterns you inherited from your parents, whether you knew you were inheriting them or not, because in my case, one of the reasons I got a bottle hit over my head late in life is because I'm like, oh, it's not supposed to be like I always thought love was because that's what I saw in my house and that's what love is and that, no, it's not that.

It can be something else. And so I can have a different relationship with how I love myself, how I love somebody else because the way that I was loved, it was a form of love, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's my top end, most evolved version of love. No, because you can take from that, like, it worked for you guys, but this is not what I want at all.

And that's kind of, like, my dad was a workaholic, he didn't really go on trips with us, my mom was with us 24-7, stay-at-home mom, did all that. Same, by the way. Yeah, and so I think, I'd be foolish to think that didn't somehow in my mind be like, okay, well, I know I don't want that. Like, I don't want, I love my mom to death

and I'm grateful for everything she did for us, but that I could never do. Like that's not what I want for my life. And I think part of me went the extreme opposite. I was like, you know, my mom is a foreigner. She, you know, only has so many things that she's got to her access as far as getting a job or doing any of these things. When they got divorced, that was pretty gross.

And I saw her sort of, I mean, she's petty as hell and I love her to death. Like my dad, my dad was an executive at Valero. And when they got divorced, and he'll laugh about it now, but when they got divorced, she got a job at the Valero gas station that is right next to where his office was, so that all of us, his colleagues and the people that work for her would walk in. Oh, wow. And by the way, the sinister smile that you couldn't even repress in thinking about how wonderful that is. Oh, when she told me she was doing that, I was like, wow, that's a movie.

Are you like your mom? And I don't mean like penniness, but I mean like fiery. Like I do remember, yeah. I mean, to put that much energy into sort of revenge, I know, because I feel like it's wasteful, but I do appreciate it. It's a work of art. Well played. Yeah.

Yeah, so I knew that I don't want that. The funny thing is, is I've never been against the idea of like a partner. Like, I want a person who is, you know, an equal, who we travel together, and we like the same things, but we also have our lives that are not necessarily intertwined. And to me, that was always sort of what I would want. But I didn't really see that at home. And so I just, yeah, the marriage part for me, I just equated it like, you know,

where I'd see my friends that were married and be like, that's fine. It works for them. It's just, that's not what I want. And so, yeah, it never became a goal, if you will. But then you hear like, I've been picturing my wedding my whole life. Never once have I had a vision of my wedding. Pete is this the happiest that you have been? Yeah. It's, uh. I feel very just easy. Like life's very easy right now. And well, but uncomfortable in your skin, it sounds like.

And comfortable with your choices and what it is that you want and don't want from your life. Yeah, it feels very sort of like there's not a, like a weird stress or anything or what's, I don't have that what's next feel. Which you would think I would have now, right? Cause I am doing like jobs like year or two at a time and you don't know if they're going to be there next year and that would be the time to be worried.

But I don't feel it. Oh, but if you're not measuring yourself anymore by what it is that you do for a living. I feel like something will happen. Another job will come around. There's real freedom in that. It kind of is. I kind of do like that. I don't know that a lot of people would necessarily understand all of that.

I don't know if it starts with you never wanting this to begin with and it having to provide it a wild ride and inherently, you being the person who will walk out of law school and spend three years wandering, right? Like that, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, if you... I would say that it would be very easy for you to want to shake a fist at industry.

Or to say, how can all of these people fuck me when they're not as good as what it is that I'm doing? And television executives think that they're running everything and they're responsible for success and they don't actually. We're all replaceable, Dan. That was the quote we all got to hear.

We're all replaceable. I mean, it was one we all got to hear. We're all replaceable. I mean, it was one of the fascinating things I thought about ESPN that I did not know before getting there is, oh, wait a minute, this is just run by producers. This doesn't actually run by the people who... Like that's how the producers keep their power. If they make everybody...

Yes, if they always make everyone else replaceable, they never have to give away any of the power, but also the entirety of the content. Like that's a lot of space to make great content and not a lot of it is great. No, exactly. Well, yeah, now you're just, I mean, it's just a lot of filling the air with stuff. It's always been that though. It's always been, it's hidden is that it's always been infomercials that just get you to the games and they're disguised as maybe Michelle Beatle can make it entertaining. Yeah, right.

But it's all, how do we get you to the 10 people, 10 million people who are watching on Monday night and keep you there running on the airport bars and everywhere. That's where you get the most play. Like, oh, there she is. I know. Yeah, it is, it's weird.

Just content at this point. Just chilling. We'll see what happens. Like you would think I'd be mad, but I really am not mad. Yeah, it's weird, just content at this point. Just chilling. We'll see what happens. Like you would think I'd be mad, but I really am not mad. It wasn't that bad. Look, I made a lot of money doing something I love doing a lot.

The ending wasn't perfect. It's not how I would have scripted it, but it is what it is. And there are far worse things that could have happened. It's just, it was eye-opening. That's all, I just learned a lot. But looking back on it too though, and seeing it through like really adult eyes on,

oh, that's all kind of empty. It's all, all of that doesn't matter given like where the real stuff is. No, it doesn't. It was just, it's just job stuff. But that's where, by the way, I'm just, excuse me for interrupting you. Like that's where perspective isn't a cliche.

You actually have it. That's true I guess that's the whole point of any of this right like this should eventually not be the most important thing and that's It's weird to tell a young person that when they're like do you have any advice? I'm like, yeah, none of this is important Not great not great mentoring for career advice So I mean usually I'm just like don't be an asshole Try to also live your life. Like, it cannot just be this. But I know it's falling upon deaf ears, because when you're young and hungry, there is no

life. There's no traveling. There's no vacation. You just... I don't know what your relationship is with anger. I would say that one of the things that got lubricated for me emotionally with marriage is just an access to feelings and stuff, like deeper feelings, whatever they are, because I used to pride myself on being like here

and it was kind of hidden. But anger, so when anger would arise in me and was a bit new to me and I'm noticing it, I have a hard time just treating it as data because I haven't used many of these muscles very much before on anger, but it sounds like you can do it and have a good relationship with anger. I can if it's just me, right?

If it's a self-contained situation or I'm angry about something. What I know and I'm learning more and more every day with like a partner is I suck at it. At least I apparently suck at communication, ironically. And I tend to, I mean, it's the equivalent of just leaving, right? It's the shutting down.

Like that's the thing I think I probably have to work on more. It's just always been easier in my mind if something's uncomfortable or you're angry about it. Like it's like a simpleton. It's like a goldfish, right? I'm just gonna sleep on it and I'm gonna wake up and it's gonna be fine tomorrow. That's how I've lived, right, when it comes to relationship stuff.

Like, just let's sleep on it. Well, what you find out is that not everyone is the exact same. And most people don't just sleep on it and wake up and act like everything's fine. So that part I am learning, and I've never really probably cared to change much of myself in relationships before like, oh, you don't like it? Well, then you can leave. Like that was my attitude. Um, but wanting to actually like get it more, I guess is the sign of growth for me on in

that regard. Like, sure, I have these emotions, but normally if they're uncomfortable, I just put them over here. And I realized like, you can't always do that when another they're uncomfortable, I just put them over here. And I realized like you can't always do that when another human being's involved. Well, this is interesting. You mentioned that the relationship you're in now feels like a healthy one.

Yeah. And that's part of it, right? So your anger is being met with love? Yeah, or if they're angry, then I'm supposed to figure out how to deal with it. And I'm not good at that either. It's like, my attitude is like, well, you could get over it or like, that's not what you're supposed to say

when someone's angry about something. So it's like, oh, the harder part for me is to receive some sort of anger and then like work on that. Who knew? I thought you could just sleep on shit and then it'll be fine tomorrow. You don't think you'd wake up and it'd be formed hardened into resentment? No, I'm like, tomorrow's a new day.

Quietly don't address it. We get a reset. Like, what are you doing? I don't know. Apparently that was wrong. But yeah, so to me, it's like, okay, I'm gonna entertain this idea of like trying to figure all that out, but that part's not easy. I don't know that that part's not easy. I don't know that it'll ever be easy. But seeing what your blind spots have been shown to you

by someone else you respect, admire, love, and trust. Yeah, exactly. Trust. Because every partner in our lives, when they leave at least, or like they give you the laundry list of everything that's wrong with you, but you don't care at that point.

You're like, you are out of my life and nothing you say matters. It's when there's someone there that like you just all of the traits, like everything is good. I'm like, oh, maybe I should actually put a little effort into this, this time. So we'll see. I will do my best. That's pretty cool though. Like it's pretty cool. And it doesn't have to be change as in someone is demanding change because they don't understand you It can be change you see because it's growth like growth is change For myself like to be an adult and to have healthy relationships that keep getting healthier

Because you're you're growing them with with nurturing and yeah and self-care. I feel like you know, I've brought pugs into his life He's bringing emotional intuition and awareness to mind. It's a total trade. I have admired you for a long time and I appreciate you sharing this time with us and bearing your soul. So thank you. Thank you for being on with us. I will remind the people anything you want to tell them about Beetle and Decker weekdays from noon to three on Sirius XM's Mad Dog Sports Radio channel, because I meant to ask you what's the most fun

you've had doing stuff, because it looked like Sports Nation was the most fun that you were having. To this day, all of us that started that show, like I just ran into a couple of guys the other day and had dinner and was like, just the memory. It was before we all had like adult jobs is how we refer to it.

And it was the most fun. But yeah, I had three hours of radio a day, an hour on fan... It's fun. I'm like getting to talk about sports again and not take it too seriously. Thank you for being on with us, Michelle. Thank you for having me. Folks, since the dawn of mankind, we've cooked our food over an open flame. We've debated the best way to grill.

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