The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Ramona Shelburne

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

Ramona Shelburne is uncompromising.  The longtime ESPN reporter and proud Los Angeles native welcomes Dan to her beloved city and speaks to the heart of why she's never wanted to leave "home".  Days after her father's passing, Ramona opens up about how she's been moving through life without her "biggest fan" and how her parents have cheered her on from her days as a star college athlete to becoming one of the best sports writers in the game. Ramona also shares untold stories of how her relationship with Kobe Bryant grew from beat journalist to friend and the many ways his life and legacy will forever impact her own. Ramona details the crazy behind the scenes from her coverage of former Los Angeles Clippers' owner Donald Sterling’s scandals that led to his lifetime ban from the NBA and how she produced the story into the new FX series, CLIPPED.  FX’s Clipped: The Scandalous Story of LA’s Other Basketball Team is now exclusively available on Hulu. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome again to South Beach Sessions West Coast Style with someone here who I'm a big admirer of. She's a long-form writer, a dinosaur from a different time. Thank you for starting that way. That cares about writing and reporting and does it better than just about anybody. Ramona Shelburne, thank you for all of your work. It has been fun to watch your mastery of subject matter

and how it is that you get into things. And I am told that I'm going to see a bit of a mirror here, that you and I have a lot of similarities in how it is that we're built. So welcome to South Beach Sessions, and I will say right off the top, I will thank you because this is an extraordinarily difficult time for you.

You just lost your father, James. I'm sorry, I'm deeply sorry, and thank you for making the time for us because you're the executive producer of the project of a lifetime on Hulu Clipped about the Clippers story that you covered better than anyone, Donald Sterling. So I will just ask you off the top, how are you doing?

Yeah, you know, I'm okay. It's just you and I have both been, we covered athletes, right, where a parent dies or some horrible thing happens to them and they give an interview where they go, you know, I know my dad would have wanted me to play or they have some amazing game and they dedicate it to a grandma or a dad or whoever it was.

And obviously, you know, my dad passed away on the 29th of May, so it was, you know, I had a couple of days to get through it. And if stuff would have happened, if this would have happened and then the premiere was two nights later, I wouldn't have been able to do it. But I had four or five days to kind of sit Shiva in my own way, see my friends and be around people

who love me and come from me and I wasn't alone. And I really felt like very quickly and early on, my dad was like my biggest fan. I got to show him the show and he was in the hospital. He was sick for six months, so this was pancreatic cancer, which is one of those things that you're like, that's a bad one.

It's the most aggressive. Yeah. I mean, it's just, and so I always knew this could happen. I was sort of in that place of not accepting that this was gonna happen. We were still fighting and he had a surgery and was, I thought, oh, just get through this, turn a corner, and then boom, he has a brain bleed and a stroke

and that's it, and it was quick. And so I'm sort of working through all of it, and it's hard, but I also feel like my dad would absolutely want me to go to this premiere. This was like, he was my biggest fan. He would, literally, if I could ask him, he would say, I would be mad at you if you didn't go. I would be mad at you if you didn't do this. And I think I actually understand that now.

You like me, uncommonly close to your parents, talk to them every day. The people around me didn't tell me until very late in life that it was strange that how often I was with my parents Later in life as an adult and it seems like you're even closer to your parents I do not talk to my parents show with my dad, but you could have probably I'm guessing I'm guessing quiet He was my dad was like, you know, he I'm guessing. He was kind of quiet. I don't know. He was, my dad was like, you know, he was a teacher. He was everyone's coach. So like all my friends growing up knew him as Coach Jim, right?

And all my mom friends now, they know him because he was at my house all the time. We do play dates and my dad's there. Like I went to the beach with a couple of friends that I like barely knew. We were just getting to know, hey, you want to go to the beach together? Let's take the babies. And like my dad came. That might be weird. I were just getting, hey, you wanna go to the beach together? Let's take the babies. And my dad came. That might be weird, I don't know. I mean, I travel around the NBA.

I went to Miami and my dad, can I come? Okay, come on. My dad would just tag along and I'd get a room with two beds in it and I'd be like, don't snore. Wait till I fall asleep before you start snoring over there. And he would just go amuse himself and do stuff

because he was just always game. He wanted to go do stuff. And I, like you, probably, I think I knew that it was strange that I hung out with my dad as much as I did, but I also hung out with my mom a lot too. I didn't really apologize for it. I didn't either. But like I said, I would say though

that nobody was telling me it was weird until much later. Like, that people weren't honest about that beforehand. But people love your dad, you know? Like, and I also felt like if you love me, this is where I came from, these are people in my life. Like, literally, like, my dad, I would call him, be like, you wanna come over, I'm making whatever for dinner, you wanna come,

he'd be there in 10 minutes. Like, that's why I live all the way out in the San Fernando Valley, so that I can be 10 minutes from my parents. It's also why you never left, right? You had a chance to go to Harvard and you did not leave. No, like, I, so I can tell this story. I had a good job on the research, I like that.

That's... The, no, I was a softball player in high school and I got recruited by a few places and like, at the end it was either Harvard, Stanford or Cal. And I sort of had this weird idea that I wanted to be in a city and I just loved Harvard. It's like, I love being in Boston and being in the old New England-y town and like doing something totally

different. And then I didn't even really like Stanford at first. I was like, oh, it's a big country club and it's, I'm going to be so bored here. What do you do? You just, what do you ride your bike or something? Like, you know, there's nowhere to go. There's no city around here.

I mean, Palo Alto's a little sleepy, you know, it's a Silicon Valley, right? And then I just was like, but I don't wanna be that far from my folks. Like I don't, I'm really close to my parents. I don't wanna come home twice a year. I want them to be able to come up and go to all my games. And then I had even this thought at 17,

like if I go to school at Harvard, I might meet a guy from there, and maybe his family will be from over in back east, and I'll get married, or I'll get a job there, because it's easier to find a job in Boston or New York if you go to school back there, right? And then my life will be over in the East Coast and I don't want that. Well, what was the tug?

Like, was it just love? Like, obviously you like spending time with them. In my case, I didn't embrace change. I liked where it is that I was. Definitely. I come from exiles though, right? So I'm living in a house that's got a lot of fear in it and all you've got is each other.

So I don't know what the roots are of it for you to be that close to your family. I mean I was definitely like really close to my mom and dad. It was funny because like you know I was in my freshman year getting dropped off and like like they literally drop you off like okay here's your stuff here's your dorm and most of my friends were not I wasn't I really didn't have friends yet I just got dropped off in the dorms at Stanford. And they were all like, yes, our parents are gone. We're gonna embrace being a college kid.

And I was crying my eyes out. And I remember going home for Thanksgiving and I literally had to pull over on the side of the road and throw up on the way home. Because I was just like,, I came back to the womb and now I'm going leaving again. And it was like, it was really hard for me to be away from my folks.

Like I just, and how, why is that? I don't know. I think I just, maybe I was a little like, in a lot of ways I'm very old soul mature, but in a lot of other ways I'm not. I'm like immature. I was gonna say it stunted me. I didn't become an adult.

I was a little childlike in that. I was a little immature, like a little afraid to stand on my own two feet. My dad was really strong. Like he had... like if I got into... like I remember I got into a super minor car accident, but I called my dad right away. Like something happened, I called my dad right away. Like... and I didn't have... I never rebelled. It's not weird. Neither did I. I didn't either. I need to rebel. Like maybe my only rebellion was right after Stanford

when everybody was like, what are you gonna do with your life? Like aren't you gonna get some fancy Stanford job? Aren't you gonna get some? And I was like, I don't freaking know. Can we curse on your podcast? Yes. That's not rebellion, really.

That's not rebellion. No, the cursing might be rebellion, but what will I do at Stanford with myself is not really rebellion. No, the cursing might be rebellion. Yeah. But what will I do at Stanford with myself is not really rebellion. No, but I was like done. And it wasn't like rebel. It was more like I was done. And I got a, I did American studies and then I did a master's in communication.

And I had an internship at Sports Illustrated, but I was sort of like not wanting to jump into the next thing. I was sort of, I had been a softball player my whole life, I'd been a student my whole life, that was what I did. And I wasn't like excited to go out into the world. I was like, I'm in my nice womb. I'm in my protective womb here. It keeps you from growth though.

I'm speaking from personal experience, because I was stunted, I was coddled, and so I didn't, mid-30s I'm still not feeling like an adult. I lived at home after I graduated college like I had a job in the Bay Area and I was gonna go do it and then I kind of wanted to go to, I wanted to do Teach for America. I had this like idea that I was gonna go move down south someplace and teach a Teach for America someplace and I wanted to have a completely new someplace and teach for America someplace. And I wanted to have a completely new experience.

And I tried on a lot of identities. I tried on a lot of things in that 22-year-old way of like, let me go do cool things. It always came back to like, I don't want to be that far from home. And I think my whole adulthood has been, even even out of college, like I stayed in LA. I had other job offers. I could have gone to Sports Illustrated after college. Like my boss there, she used to be Sandy Bailey, she's Sandy Rosenbush now.

Like she was like, oh, we'll hire you back after your internship was over. And after you graduate college, you can come back or I could go to New York. I had all these friends who went to New York, but I was not in any hurry to go stand on my own two feet. So I just worked. I did too. It's an excellent hiding place.

Yeah, it is. When you mentioned trying on hats at 22, though, writer was one of them? Or by that point you were already doing that? I was just trying that on. I never thought I would be a sportswriter. I wanted to be a sports writer. I wanted to be CJ Craig from the West Wing. Like, I wanted, I actually did like some training, like campaign training.

I went to like random seminars and I was gonna be a speech writer or you know, some kind of communications person in politics. I used to love politics, right? And I tried that a little bit, but I was like, what am I gonna do just to get out the voter registration wherever the hell it is? There was like a year or two where I was really trying

to do that, and I still have friends from that era when I was trying to go get out. So how did it happen though? Your mother was a writer. You've called your mother your best editor, right? She is. My mom, best editor, right? Yeah, she is. My mom, Jeanette, she was like a... She wrote her own screenplays.

Just like a lot of people in LA, right? Like she used to be a teacher at Harvard Westlake here, which is a private high school in LA. But back then it was just Westlake School for Girls. So she had all these like famous kids in her class. I think Jamie Lee Curtis was in her class, and the girl from the Bengals. Just a lot of cool women that she got to know back then.

And she taught until I was three or four, and then she just stepped back, because she had my brother, and then she was a stay-at-home mom for a little while. And I think very, very typical life path, right? Like for women during that era, you know, you have a cool career at a job and then you have kids and then you step back and then you don't work for 10 years. And then when the kids are about 12 or 13, you go find something new.

And so screenwriting for her was that something new and that outlet. And she knew how to check all these classes. And she actually sold a few things. Like she wrote for Children's TV. She did All Ducks Go to Heaven, that show. She was like individual scripts, right? It wasn't like she was the showrunner or anything. And she did that for a little while.

And it was a little Hollywood dream. But I don't think that was, it was just, it's hard to, you know, for a woman in her 40s, when you haven't worked for 10 years, to like break into Hollywood and do that. But how did you arrive there then? How are you arriving at writing? Because did it happen by accident? Like you don't know how it is that you got to writing?

I do know. It wasn't like, it just wasn't the plan, right? And I don't know if I even had a plan. Well, I don't think that writing, look, if- Yeah, writing's hard, dude. Well, but it's not just that it's hard. You were the, you know, you got a great grade point average. You're the president of your valedictorian,

you're class president. Sports writing is kind of underachieving there. I know, everybody goes, wait, you went to Stanford and what are you doing here? Like, why are you doing this? Like, especially early on, like, I don't know how you started your career, but I was, I covered preps,

right? Didn't you get your first newspaper job? And I covered preps at my local paper, the LA Daily News, which is, there's the LA Times and the Daily News out here. And I was covering, high school football was like a big thing for me to cover. The other times I was covering cross country and volleyball and track and field and you know, like all these. But you liked it at this point?

At this point you'd mentioned you were a softball player and a good one. You went to the College World Series and at this point are you still missing sports? You wanna be near it? 100%. And the sociological, the sociology of it is also interesting to you.

100%, yeah. Like I was, I definitely missed being an athlete for a while and being on a team. It wasn't just being an athlete, it was being on a team. So the first year, my first year out of college, I lived at home and I was paying off all my student loans. I didn't have that much because I was sort of in various states of scholarship, right?

Like there were two years I was on no scholarship, there was one year I was on half, then finally my last year I was on a full scholarship. But there were still loans in between there, right? And so I lived at home and I was giving softball lessons on the side and I worked for a producer and I was making PowerPoints for her and I don't know what the hell we were doing. She did, her name was Lori Hall, she used to do those weather channel shows and all these things. I didn't go right back into writing.

I was just having a job. It was almost like a gap year. I'd been a student and athlete and had been on so many tracks for so long that I wanted to have a year where I didn't have any responsibilities really. So I had an easy job and then I gave lessons to make a little extra money. And then I took an acting class at UCLA, like I took a UCLA extension classes. My mom used to teach a screenwriting class at Plummer Park over here in West Hollywood.

And I took her screenwriting class and I took another, there's a man named Jack Grapes. Look it up, a lot of people go to Jack Grapes in LA. He's like a guru writer type. And I was just trying on things, I was just doing different things because I had never had the luxury of that. Or maybe I hadn't wanted to, I was too busy playing softball and I didn't even really date that much in college, I didn't have time for that. There'd be boys and it was very Stanford-y, we'd kind of like, there's something there, but like,

they're too wussy to make the move, and then I have to ask them out, and then that's weird, and then they got a computer science final, and I'm off at a tournament, and it was like, whatever. Well, but you're also a maniacal achiever. Are you not, like? I was, but I was, I'm not a perfectionist. I'm not, I always got A minuses.

Like it wasn't about being perfect for me. It's more like I would be pissed if I got, I knew I could, like this is gonna sound arrogant and I hope it doesn't come across like that, but like I have a semi-photographic memory, right? And I'm really good like most writers at being able to write my way out of anything. So I can sit in class and I listen and I understand what I'm listening to.

And then I, if I was cramming for a test, I could just read the book and just remember it, you know? What a waste of that power on sports writing, on covering the 34th game of a Clipper season. What you decided to do with it though was because you loved it though, right? Yeah, I love it. The truth is like I don't really even think of myself that much as a sports writer. I'm just a writer. Like I like people, I don't, you know, I let Zach Lowe do the X's and O's.

I let him do the, this is how they ran the hedge and this ball screen and this, what kind of defense. I understand that stuff. You know, like I- No, but that's what I always say to people. I don't write sports, I write about people who play sports. 100%. And it's just fascinating to me because you could tell all the stories there.

All of the stories about the human condition can be told in the playground. Yeah, and mostly what we get to do is meet amazing people. Like tortured, flawed, ambitious achievers, like, I mean, you know, you. And amazing people who stir your curiosity. Exactly. Because you want to find out, well, how does this exist? I love listening to you talk about Pat Riley.

I love listening to you talk about some of the people you co-, people always ask me about Kobe, like, it's freaking fascinating, it's like the human condition. And so, and I do have a side of me that's a bit of, I am a producer type, I connect people. Like doing the podcast, I knew that was a quality that I had. I think it's my team sports background where like, I can get, like I know that the sound mixer

is just as important as the podcast producer and the engineer and the this and I kinda like that you're part of my team. Well what is it about team though? Because you did mention it wasn't even sports, it was team. I don't want my own show. I'm not a person who's like,

I'm a little afraid of the spotlight, even though I'm in it. I don't wanna be in it by myself, it's not an ego thing. And because there's safety in being with the group and then there's joy in the shared accomplishment. Because you and I were talking before we started here and we were talking about how hard writing is,

but I like that writing's hard. What I don't like about writing is that it's lonely. Lonely. Do you know the only time I like writing when it's lonely is when I have a good editor, you know, or somebody in it with me. Like I do a lot of, if you go back and check my bylines, a lot of my stories I co-write with people.

I like being on the journey together with people. I like it when I text my editor and be like, and like, if I, the worst thing you can give me is an editor who does not care or does not hear the music. Like, if they're just slamming it out. Cause that- Is that why your mother is so good at it for you? Like she can. She cares.

And you know how there's this thing, and I hate to say it like this, but this is always the right analogy to me, is like do you hear the music? Like do you hear how this should sound? Like I write like I talk, but there's a certain rhythm to it and a certain this. And then when somebody puts a word in the wrong place

and a comma in the wrong place, and I'm like no, you don't get it. That's not, no. No, it's a certain rhythm to it and a certain this. And then when somebody puts a word in the wrong place and a comma in the wrong place, and I'm like, no, you don't get it. That's not, no. No, it's a song. But it's also a sculpture. And so if you care about it, but how does your mother help you with it? Because I can't imagine the idea.

She has no idea about sports. She doesn't know. She's like, when I, she would go to my games in softball, she'd be like, oh, you hit a lot of good air balls today. I was like, no, it was fly balls. So she knew nothing. She's only thinking about sports. That's why she's a great editor, because she just

knows about the people and the story. And she also knows how to, like, when I did the podcast on Sterling Affairs or developing it into the show, some of the biggest, deepest conversations I would have about why these characters are interesting are with my mom. One of them was, you know, I felt like so much of what that story is about, why it always grabbed me and why I wanted to elevate it in whatever ways I could.

I'm from LA, right? And this is where people come because they want to be famous or they want to be rich or they want a little spotlight or whatever it is. But not just from LA, identify as being from LA. I'm from LA, that is my town. It's part of your personality. Yeah, I'm the same way with Miami. You know, and it's like, but LA is just like,

what the hell is LA? I mean, we're here in your studio, can I say where your studio is? Sure. We're on the Sunset Strip, basically. This is a part of LA, but it's a different part of LA than when I live in the Valley. The Valley is like, you know, like, you know,

when we have the, what I eat, and we're kinda tippy and whatever. But, and then there's Santa Monica. And we keep. No, this place is wildly different from neighborhood to neighborhood. And then there's East Hollywood, and then there's K-Town and Downtown.

And I mean, it's like, if you know Los Angeles, like there's a million, everybody in Los Angeles say, well, where in Los Angeles are you from? And then immediately we go, oh, okay, I got you now. Like when somebody tells me they're from Pasadena, I go, oh, okay, that's a little calculus. They might surprise me, but most likely there's, I'm gonna be like, oh, it might be old money

that's sort of sometimes a more conservative area, but not necessarily like, you know, like it's an older part of town, right? It's gonna have some landmarks for you, personality pillars where you're like... Yeah, yeah. Or if somebody goes, oh, I grew up in Santa Monica. I'm like, oh, okay. I know what you're like, you know?

Like you're gonna like your juice cleanses and you're gonna like go to yoga and get your nails done all the time. You don't regret never leaving though, right? Because I interned in college, I interned out here in Los Angeles. I did leave a little. Like I left in New York, I did an internship in New York, like you. It's a summer.

And I went to college at Stanford, so that was leaving, but it was an hour away on Southwest or a five hour drive. But I don't know, LA is an interesting city. Every part of it is interesting to me. And so part of the why this was such a great story was like it's this Hollywood thing. It's the site, it's not Hollywood.

Like you know the scene, I mean we're literally blocks away from where this scene took place in Pretty Woman. Well I should tell the folks that Clipped on Hulu has been a passion project of yours for years and the podcast that you did, exhaustively reported, had your imprint all over it. It's a fascinating story for a lot of different reasons and we just got through with the premiere, I will tell the people again that it's on Hulu now,

but this story appealed to you because it was wildly strange among other things. Yes, and also like, I don't know, I think I talked to you when you were doing your radio show in the middle of this. I remember doing a call with you. I was in, was I in San Antonio or Miami? One of those, it was like that series, that was 2014.

And it was like in the middle of all of it. And I liked the legal part of it. I'm like, I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV like that. I like things that challenge me intellectually, and so I had to understand, like, well, how is it that Shelley could sell the team without Donald agreeing to sell the team? And then I, oh, she had changed the trust to get,

so that if two independent doctors could get him, you know, said he was mentally incapacitated, she would control the family trust, and then she could. But it didn't just work like that. It was Shelley sold the team, and then she indemnified the NBA and the new buyer if Donald sued so in other words even if Donald won in his lawsuit Shelley would be basically paying himself out. Whoa like I mean and and I say it really fast now but it was a hard thing to figure out. Right sure. You know

what I mean like and not the most interesting parts of this story either I don't know what you think are the most interesting parts of this story. It depends on what day you ask me. Like, you know, the stuff with the players and Doc and coming back, you'll see it all in the show. But I mean, the show is different because in the podcast, I was very concerned with who Donald was,

you know, who he was in Los Angeles, the largest residential landlord in LA. He controlled rent control and redlining. And there's a reason why people live in certain places because of him, right? Different minorities and ethnic groups live in certain parts of town because of Donald Sterling and the way he ran his apartment buildings. But also, he grew up poor in East LA, and his name was Donald Tokowitz. And he went to law school and had to change his name

because he couldn't get a job at like a white-shoed law firm after law school because at that time there was discrimination against Jews and they didn't, you know, so he became a personal injury attorney. And like that's that story of like, why didn't you lean into that rags to riches story? Like, why didn't you lean?

That was a good story, man. He seemed kind of insane though, like he seemed. Ashamed of it. He didn't you leave? That was a good story, man. He seemed kind of insane though. Like he seemed. Ashamed of it. He didn't want anyone to ever see that he had been poor. He didn't want anyone to know that sort of, so rather than be proud of where he came from, there was a shame.

And I think a lot of this insecurity is overcompensating for it. And so like, this is what I would talk to my mom about. We didn't talk about, you know, like all the basketball stuff. I mean, some of it. But mostly it was the characters. Like, how is it that Shelley stays married to him for 60 years?

When she knows he has other affairs and he behaves like this. She's a nice woman. She's not, you know... I mean, she's complicit in a lot of things because she's sort of... What's that knowingly complicit thing, right? You know what somebody is and who they are, but you look the other way because it's convenient for you.

Yeah. But, and my mom said something so I love this part. She goes, well first of all, you never know what's inside somebody else's marriage. You never know what started their love or their whatever. But also there's this feeling of, when you make these choices in life, like you do one thing that feels morally compromised

a little bit, like it doesn't quite feel right, and then you do another, and you do another, and you do another, and then you're like 180 degrees from where you started, and you're like, how the hell did I get here? And I feel like that's a lot of where most of the characters in the show and the story are, but particularly Shelley. This isn't even, this wasn't the first ownership

marriage type of thing that you've done, because you were heavily involved in the Dodger McCords getting divorced, which also was a big giant mess. And if I don't have this wrong, they also sold way too early, because the Dodgers are now a monster machine and their marriage coming apart was the reason that they had to sell the team. Most ownership groups when they sell it, like the Lakers were sold because Jack Kent Cook

got divorced. You know what I mean? Like that's why he sold his Jerry buss. So there's a lot of ownership sales are because the wife and the husband to get divorced and then they know rather than the husband pay out the wife for the Value of the team they just sell the team because it seems too valuable or whatever it is These are corridors of power that reporters aren't allowed in why and how were you able to get the relationships? People don't see me coming like no, I I think One of my gifts as a reporter and writer is that I really can't talk to anybody.

I like talking to people. So I like talking to the mom of some high school football player, and I like talking to Joe Lakob, and I like talking to Magic, or I like talking to the PR know, I like talking to the PR guy. I like talking to the assistant coach. And so, I was interested in the corridors of power. Like, that's the part that I... They usually don't trust reporters, though. Like, you got, I don't know which parts

of this story you wanna tell, but you got in with everybody on this Clippers story, and those were a lot of people who were sort of damaged by what came with the press afterward. A lot of people didn't want to talk about it, or they couldn't, they had signed non-disclosures. But a lot of people, I think everybody on some level wants to be heard, don't you? Yeah.

And I don't know if they want to. And people do like to talk about themselves. I've found that that's an excellent way for me to avoid intimacy, to just keep asking somebody else questions. 100%, yes, of course. Well, I also felt like as a writer, like, I... Okay, we're gonna go there, huh? I feel like if I don't connect with that person,

and it's on some personal, like, if I don't connect, then it's like I'm not into the story. I can do it. I can close my eyes and type it out and make it good. But I need to feel it. I need to get into the guts of it. It's got, I've got to find some time in my life, it's almost like method acting or something, right? And I feel like I've gotten to a stage in my life

as a writer where like, I can totally write a story that I don't feel passionately or it's not in my guts or whatever, it's like, but I also need, but the ones that do get there, like those are the ones I really dive into. And so, I mean, it's, you know, I was gonna do my bad sex analogy, but it's okay, if you want me to do it, I'll do it.

Well, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not sure whether I want you to do it or not, but now we're here, so what are we gonna do with it? Look, I mean, it's like, you know, sex is still sex, right? So bad sex is still, you know, still, okay. So it's like you can do a story and it can still be good. You could've gone pizza there, you didn't have to go sex.

You know. I feel like bad sex is worse than bad pizza, I think. I think I have that right. Oh, pizza. Are you more interested, like what calls you more inside of a story, if you had to choose That you feel like you need it to be an authentic connection there or that you're just naturally an empath and so Yeah, I think it's I'm naturally an empath and I think what you said too about it's a way to avoid your own stuff, too

To deal with other people's problems, right? or other people's issues, right? Or other people's issues. So one of my formative editors, we all have these formative editors, right? These people who really inspire us and get us and push us. One of my formative editors was a guy named Eric Neal. I don't know if you know him. He was page two columnist at ESPN for a long time, then he transitioned. He's the guy who hired me at ESPN.

And he had this line and I always, I just think about it all the time because most of us write the same story all the time. We write about the same thing. So like Wright Thompson, who I think you're friends with and had on the pod, Wright writes a lot about... It's always a father. There's always a father involved. Always. Why? I mean, I'm guessing because he's exploring his own stuff with his own father. Yeah. Okay. And a lot of my early work, a lot of my early stories was about greatness as people who are trying to be great.

And I can do the psychoanalysis pretty quickly is that I'm trying to be great and I want to write about other people trying to be great because I am afraid to be my own great. I'm afraid to, for whatever reason, there are things that are holding me back or things I'm afraid of about it. And so I just want to write about other people's, but like most of my early stories have been about that. And then I think I got to a place, and I don't know if it was when I had kids, where I just, I stopped, I still write about that, but that's not what more of my stories are about now. That's not what I'm drawn to as much anymore. I'm into it.

I'm into the climb. I'm into the trying to climb the mountain or trying to stay on the mountain or whatever it is, but I haven't found what my next stories are usually about. So the kids changed your entire perspective. It just made all of that seem small comparatively, right? The pursuit of competition, I've found later in life that I don't have much use for competition, that it doesn't feel very healthy,

but I don't have kids. I would imagine if you have kids, you're like, why am I pouring myself into having to be competitive about things when I should just turn my life into, it can be smaller than that. Yeah, and it's not even just, I's like, I think it's just an evolution. It's not like, I mean, I pinpoint it and I seem to tie it towards when I had kids,

which was five years ago or whatever. But I could also tie it to, you know, 2020, I had herniated disc in my back. It was like nine months of horrible excruciating pain, trying to do the shots and do all the all the things you do PT and stuff But like to the point where like I couldn't even function I had to like my dad drove me to the studio every time Like I'd lean the chair back and I couldn't sit up I did every I did every hit standing for like nine months, you know

I'd be like, you know, cuz you know sciatica even her and yes, you can't do it. And it was just really, truly humbling. Like humbling, like I can't pick my kid up, I can't do anything. I'm like, I'm this strong physical person, like I'm an athlete. And then all that's taken away from me. And I think it's also maybe a, like I'm, like I kind of had this belief in my own physical abilities, like I can stay up all night, I could always pull that shit off, right? Like that was like my self-concept, is that I am the one who can pull stuff off.

Willful. Willfulness, like, I had this, that's why Kobe and I were close, like we used to talk about, he loved doing, he loved doing the hard way. He loved every, like, he taught himself to play piano by listening to Moonlight Sonata and listening by ear and learning how to play it with his finger. I'm like, why not hire a piano teacher, dude?

That would be way easier. And he's like, but it's the struggle where there's beauty. And I'm like, He felt understood by you though, right? You were meeting him in a deeper place talking about, place talking about, he probably was super interested in how curious you were about how demonically possessed he was about being great. Yeah and I don't think, like I was still, even in that, in those moments, I was still more balanced than Kobe was. Like I have this, most, most really great athletes that you know are probably a bit unbalanced, right? Like you have to be. I think most successful people tend to be unbalanced because to get ahead, it's almost to the lopsided detriment of other things in your personality.

And especially in that case where he's fighting the world and the inner cities for money on cultural approval, like the people he's fighting against, to be hungrier than all of them is nice. And to sort of never stop. Like to like literally, there comes a point where like you and I turn off the Twitter machine, right?

Like we're like, yeah, screw that, like enough. I said what I have to, and I actually find myself like doing less with social media as time goes on because I feel like this is not the media I'm going to be understood, you know? And this is not who I want to be shouting is not the media I'm going to be understood. And this is not who I want to be shouting at or the crowd I want to be shouting at. And the people that know me know me over 10 years of listening to me on the radio or podcast

or reading my work. And so I'm not going to let one tweet or one stupid thing be the way somebody gets to know me, whatever. And I think that's how Kobe was too. It's about the body of work. It's about the body your whole career and who you are and how you affected people. So I think that's why he was so celebrated at the end is that, A, he let himself be understood. He found translators. I guess I was one of them. He was looking for them at the end. I remember after he

went through his turmoil, he went city to city looking for the columnist. I'm one of the ones who got a call. Hey, do you want to talk to Kobe Bryant here? He'd like to reveal portions of himself to the public. He wanted to be understood more. Because I think, I mean, he knew he was sort of, people were incapable of fundamentally understanding him, but he wanted at least to try.

Because I think he had made a lot of, like, you know, he literally trademarked slogans like this. Friends hang sometimes, banners hang forever. Literally trademarked that slogan, right? And he kind of delighted in the idea, I don't have any friends, I don't have time for them, you know, like Gotham Chopra, who did his documentary Muse, right?

He, Gotham met him the first time, and he always told me, he goes, yeah, we went out, we had a nice time, and then he goes, oh, you know, it's my birthday today. And he's like, really? You didn't have to do this meeting today, man. Don't you have someone you want to go out with? And he's like, I'm good.

In other words, he didn't have a good friend to go out with on his birthday. He was just taking a business meeting. And we all do that sometimes in our work, right? We get lost in covering games and the life of it all. And then when you have children, you realize there is an actual separation between your life and your work. I think I had been very stunted in my friendships

and my personal relationships. I had a husband, but ships in the night, right? We see each other, we go out for a date here and there, we hang out and watch some shows, but I'm traveling and he's home and whatever. And then you have kids and it just grounds you. But you kinda wanna be grounded and you kinda don't. I talked a lot about this with Rachel Nichols all the time

because she had gone through that maybe five years before. And she said, having kids is very clarifying and you have to just have no time or patience for anybody's bullshit. Like you really only prioritize what you have to get done and what you do. And I used to think as a writer, like when you say it's very lonely, it is.

100, like looking at the blank page, oh. Well, and chipping at the sculpture. Oh, God. Just spending so much time on every word. But let's go back for a second to something you said. You were afraid of greatness? You write about greatness in others because you're afraid of it?

Yeah. I mean, I thought about that sometimes with, even with like, when I got married, I was a little afraid of all the attention. Like when people would, you know, some people, some women love to wear the gown and walk down the aisle and all that. And I like was so self-conscious.

And even when I first got to ESPN, I was a little self-conscious being on TV. Your wedding day is not a joyous one because you're self-conscious? Like I'm saying, you're not allowing just the love of it to sweep over you? I eventually did. I eventually got there, but it was hard

because it felt self-important or something. It made me self-conscious, I don't know. Not part of a team. Well, you are, it's a team of two. Yeah, but you're really out on me self-confident, I don't know. And then. Not part of a team, well you are, it's a team of two, but. Yeah, but you're really out on an island there when you're walking down that island, and we, you know, it's like,

but I think also like, I didn't, I like being on an ensemble show, I like being on a show with three other people on the desk for me, like, I don't mind when the Sports Center anchor goes to me and I give the report, but I'm also throwing it right back to you, like, I never wanted to be like, let's have the,

do you know, when I did the Sterling Affairs, the hardest line for me to say was, the beginning? Hi, I'm Ramona Shelburne. Really? I had my editor, she was my, oh, I love my editor, Raina Kelly, and I remember her, she used to run the Undefeated. She was my editor when I was writing about Rhonda Rousey.

I needed a female editor. I was like, Raina, I need you. And was my editor when I was writing about Rhonda Rousey. I needed a female editor. I was like, I need, Raina, I need you, you know, and she's, she's like, I don't really think about this MMA stuff, but I'm like, don't worry about it. This is a, this is a feminine hero. This is a, this is not about MMA, you know? And she was my editor on all those stories. And then we got to be really good friends. And when I was doing Sterling, I needed, she was a trained actress. And she'd, she'd been a playwright and she really knew how to deliver the line, right? And so radio is fun because you hear your voice

and you play with your voice and you have fun and podcasting, same thing. But that one moment where I have to go like, hi, this is the Sterling affairs and I'm Ramona Shelburne. And I was like, I couldn't say it. And I was like, Raina, will you just say that for me? Will you just say it so I can mimic you saying I? And so she would get there and she'd go,

I'm Ramona Shelburne. I'm Ramona Shelburne. And I was like, okay, do it again. Let me do it just like that. And I had to hear her say it so that I could say it. And then she's like, and then my other producer, Julia Henderson, she goes, listen, I know that you're feeling self-conscious

saying this, but this is your podcast. This is your idea. And you've spent a tremendous amount of time working on it and developing it. And I know you like to feeling self-conscious saying this, but this is your podcast, this is your idea, and you've spent a tremendous amount of time working on it and developing it, and I know you like to be part of this team of people doing it, but this is your podcast and say this is what I made and this is what I did. Can you explore what this is for me?

Like explore for me the roots of why it is. I'm turning it around because you have the same shit, right? Well, I don't. That's why you're interested. Well, I'm not always hiding though. Like I don't, I do a lot of ensemble stuff because writing is so lonely because I like the communal.

Does that say Levitard and friends? That's right. Yeah. Levitard and friends. But it does say Levitard up there. Okay. And it is Levitard. Okay, but and friends.

It is first because writing is lonely. I wanted something that was communal, laughter, and shared, but I'm not taking an ancillary role. I tend to be leading. I tend to be, I'm not. So you've gotten yourself there, but were you always there? I learned in my 30s what I wanted more,

because some of the work wasn't making me happy enough. It was fulfilling when I finished it, but the loneliness, I mean, the mountaintop view is better shared than it is by yourself. Yeah, I agree. Can I explore what that is? Well, I think I've gotten better at it.

I've learned how to take a compliment now. I've learned how to say my name. Right? I have learned, like I can do it now. I can't tell though if being a part of a team is for you confidence or lack of confidence. Like knowing what you want or wanting to hide in the group because it takes some of the pressure off of you.

I don't think it's wanting to hide in the group because it takes some of the pressure off of you. I don't think it's wanting to hide in the group. I think I just, I think I don't, like I do take myself, I've learned to take myself seriously. So maybe I think I'm actually at an evolution point. So it's a little harder for me to explore what I was like three or four years ago, or five years ago or whatever it is. But it's hard for me to say like, I want this for myself. Like you know, there's certain people who are, in the business we call them thirsty, okay?

You're like, oh, I was thirsty, okay? And you can see them on the gram, and they're posting pictures, and they like the attention and all that stuff. And I'll post a little bit, but I never had that, like, I want to be great. I want everyone to recognize the body of work and who I am, but I want it to speak for itself. I like seeing my name in lights a little bit.

I liked it when it was on, there's a seat reserved for Ramona Shelburne at the premiere. It says R. Shelburne. There was like, look, I got my own visor. It says Shelburne. Nice, your Vista Viano visor. You brought it with you. Yeah, right? I mean, this is my greatest thing ever, right?

Okay. But I'm kind of getting my greatest thing ever. Right? Okay. But like, I'm kind of getting more comfortable with it. But like, there's another side, like, and oh, we're going to get in. This feels like a body image thing too, but it's something I've been working on myself too, of like, don't hide in your fat suit. You know? Like, I was always an athlete, I was always a jock, but I was never, like, out there, you know? Like I wasn't getting my hair done and my makeup done and dressing all cute.

I just looked good because I was in shape and all that. And then in your 20s and 30s, mostly my 30s because I was just working a lot. You just work a lot. You just, like, there's five pounds and 10 pounds and 20 pounds and whatever, and then you look up and you're like, whoa, what am I, what have I done to my body? And the sportswriter lifestyle is brutal. The worst. Brutal.

The worst. Deadlines riding at midnight. Eat something afterwards, after the game. Oh, let me have some, let's go out to some restaurant at 12.45 at night and eat another dinner. Like, it's like, oh, am I having second dinner or third dinner? What are we doing?

And then you can get up and work out, or you could do that, but my body literally broke on me. My back broke. And I was like, I want to be strong. I have always been strong. I'm not a weak person. And it bothered me that my body broke. And so you kind of have to get knocked all the way down

so that you can have the strength to get all the way back up. And so like I'm religious about working out now. I'm like, I'm really, I'm like, I'm never going to have that happen in my back again. And some of this out of my control, but I'll do whatever I can to not let it happen. I'm way more balanced about sleep and taking care of myself. And sometimes that means like, you know, I'm not going to go to that game tonight, even though I want to like, I'll just see them when they're in shoot around after I do the show this morning. I'm gonna do the show, see if I can catch somebody at the hotel after a shoot around,

you know, see the people I need to see, and then I'm gonna go home and have a normal night at home and watch it on TV. Like that was, these are big things in your evolution as a person doing this job. I'm not getting the what you were afraid of in greatness. Like why would greatness scare, why would you pursue greatness so willfully and then be afraid of it? You know, maybe it leaves you exposed,

maybe it's lonely. All that attention is just all on you. Maybe it's even the way people think about me. Like, you've seen all this in our business. There's the new it girl or the new it guy, the new hot talent, whatever, and there's this rise and fall fame cycle. I think I'm always just like, I just want to have the same job for a long time as opposed to, you know?

It's safer. Yeah, it's safer. I think I don't like... It's not even the pressure. It's not the pressure that bothers me. I'm not afraid of pressure. I'm an athlete. Pressure is a privilege. That means that you're doing important things. I prefer that. It's not pressure.

So that's not it. Maybe what you said, the view from the mountaintop is better with others. Maybe I just don't think of myself with that sort of self-importance or want things on my own. I never understood why somebody would be able to tell me what I'm doing. I never understood why somebody would be able to tell me what I'm doing. said the view from the mountaintop is better with others. Maybe I just don't think of myself without sort of self-importance or want things on my own. Like I never understood why somebody would be a tennis player. Oh it's so lonely. A swimmer. Like when you win, like who do you, like your coach? You know?

Like I don't know, like who's celebrating with you? Like I don't know, I just felt like that's just more my vibe, you know? And like why do people become producers instead of on camera talent? I don't know. I've always been kind of caught in the middle there. And like, so I happen to be a great writer. I happen to be pretty good on TV or pretty good on radio. I happen to make a great podcast.

Like, I do all that. I don't mind leaning in a little. I've learned how to lean in. Oh, but these things are different, right? Because I have had a conversation with a friend of mine who's at the top of industry that I've known for a really long time. And what I've said to him about my insecurities and the name and lights thing that you got at the Clipped Premier is I'd be totally good with the limousine pulling up on the red carpet

and my work getting out and walking on the red carpet. Me, not so much. Don't, don't. I did that, I walked on the red carpet and there's a video of me and they were like, Ramona and they're like, over here to your left, give us a thumbs up and I was like, wow, this is good. And I think I just kinda had fun with it.

I wasn't like, oh, this is my crowning glory. I was like, oh, this is kinda fun. It is fun. It was fun, you know? But it wasn't like, and I was not as uncomfortable as I used to be. You know what I mean? The writer also usually doesn't want to be the story.

We've been taught to not be this, aggressively don't be the center of attention. The reason why we're good writers is that we do share ourselves. You shared yourself in your writing. I read your stuff, you know? Like people who read me, like I may not go into the first person, but I share myself Yeah, you're revealing who you are. Yeah, and definitely on the radio. I'm always over sharing

Can you tell me about how Kobe's death impacted you as Someone yeah to to see youth extinguished like that that seemed forever bulletproof. Okay. So I'm going to go maybe start at the beginning rather than the end. But as a reporter, my first seven to eight years in the business, I wasn't anything special. I was covering preps. I occasionally get a, hey, you want to go fill in for Howard Beck on an off day, you know, covering the Lakers, right?

I would cover the practice. But it took me quite a long time to make it. I was almost to the point where I was going to get out of the business because I was like, oh, as you say, I went to Stanford. I should be doing something with my life. Making $40,000 a year at the Daily News was like, there's a shelf life to that, right? And it was kind of towards the end of that time when I was at the Daily News where I was actually actively looking for a pivot for a transition.

I was approaching 30. I was like needing to... I'm either going to make it or I'm not. And nobody made me... Nobody believed... I had a couple editors who believed in me and thought I was great. There was a guy named Matt McHale. He was great baseball.

He was like, oh, you're a good writer. Oh, thanks. I think I knew, but I didn't know, and I wasn't being seen that way by most of the people. I needed people to tell me. I needed people to tell me. But they were telling me in high school, they were telling me in college.

I would have never pursued this. It was like the only thing that people were telling me I was good at. People used to tell me I was smart, and they would tell me I was good at writing, but I didn't, as in terms of a sports writer, like none of the people in my, I always felt almost like inferior

because most people had different backgrounds and I write differently than most sports writers, right? I'll take a long time to get to the point or I'll do big scene or I'll do that, you know? And there was another guy, Gene Warnick, like I remember he, I wrote a comic, he goes, just love how you turned that phrase, I just love that.

And I was like, really? Thanks, man. Like, and I was like, I love how you turned that phrase. I just love that. And I was like, really? Thanks, man. Like, and I was, so. But you're invisible. Wilful college athlete. Yeah. For like, somebody who is. Think about it, most of your 20s

were just supposed to be like your peak awesome years. But you're great at everything. You're conquering school easily. And now for seven or eight years, you're writing pretty meaningless things. You're kind of invisible. I'm at my old high school covering my old softball team and people are like, didn't you go to Stanford?

And you're the backup reporter on the Lakers and Kobe. Yeah, and we're in Memphis and I remember being in, was it Memphis? I think it was Memphis or Orlando, something like it. We went on this trip right before Christmas and I was filling in because it was the Christmas trip. It was the trip right before Christmas and the reporter was filling in, because it was the Christmas trip. It was the trip right before Christmas. And the reporter was, you know,

our normal guy, Elliot Tiefer, he goes, you know, can you do that trip for me? Do you mind, you know, like I want to take some time at home. You know, it's family time, right? And I go, oh, it was the greatest thing ever. Like, you know, I'd never been given anything. I'd been eight years of feeling like I sucked

and like, I'm going to get to cover a road trip? Oh my god. Yes, okay. So it was Miami and Orlando and Memphis and New Orleans or something. And like in one of those cities, I want to say it was Memphis. Kobe, like I walk into the room and then this is like Phil Jackson, Kobe, those teams, okay. 2009 maybe? And eight, nine, something like that. He goes to, he kind of taps me on the shoulder and I was talking to somebody else over there and he goes, hey, do you need me? I'm about to go.

And the fact that he knew me, I was like, oh yeah, thanks. And I stopped whoever else I was talking to and I talked to Kobe, yeah, thanks. And I, like, stopped whoever else I was talking to and I talked to Kobe. Like, he knew that. Like, he, A, he recognized that... I'm not your usual beat reporter. Like, the usual guy is not here. He recognized that it would be a big deal

if he left without me getting him for the story. And, like, that he actually knew me enough and gave a shit. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, and somebody helping you, because I would imagine... Oh, yeah, I was chasing my tail. I was like, oh, okay. Well, and somebody helping you, because I would imagine. Oh yeah, I was chasing my tail.

I was like, oh my God, I don't know what I'm doing. Where do I go? Like, you know, I've never been on the road before. You know, I've tried not to screw up the whole time. And I'm not sure how welcoming the entire environment was to you in general, a woman among men. You don't do a lot of complaining about this, but I don't imagine that this was a very warm environment

for you where a lot of people were being helpful. I will, I think there's a lot of war stories about, you know, what it's like for a woman in the industry. I prefer to tell, just to always just say like, I remember the guys who were nice to me. I remember the ones who were not nice to me, but like Brad Turner from LA Times, great, like he was nice to me. but like Brad Turner from the LA Times, great, like, he was nice to me.

Like he made me feel like, hey, it's your first road trip, huh? Like he was, you know, let me know where you need to go. Like, because you know, it's really, you talk about being lonely. Oh my God. A woman on the road with a bunch of dudes, like you're eating by yourself every time. I don't know if you think of yourself as a pioneer, but you and Rachel were coming through a time that wasn't actually that evolved. There were women who came before you,

and again, you don't complain about this stuff, but I don't think you're anybody's victim, but I can't imagine that it was very pleasant, and here you have Kobe Bryant helping you. And it was just this little moment of kindness that I was like, whoa, like it's also Kobe, right? Like wow, like he give a shit, you know And so like that that's kind of where it started

but then our relationship grew over the course of the next couple years because I was I did a lot of writing. I think he read everything I think well no, but the muse when you talk about muse and what he did with Showtime, he was clearly seeking the smarter people who were trying to understand him, who were relentlessly curious and can tell his story better than perhaps he could. He was looking for it. Yeah, that's what artists do. We look for other artists, right? And so he was a lonely guy too.

He didn't have too many friends on the team. He was a lonely guy too. He didn't have too many friends on the team. Greatness is lonely by the way. I don't know if that's one of the reasons. You mentioned that that's one of the reasons. I have theories, but maybe that's why I just always write about it. But anyway, our relationship grew,

especially when I got to ESPN, because I know he had been reading the stuff I wrote at the Daily News, because he would say things that let me know that he read it. But when I got to ESPN, I'd be on the radio, and he would send me a text. He'd be like, tell Dwight that da-da-da, whatever it was. It wasn't like tell Dwight, it was like Dwight needs to know that da-da-da. And I was like, whoa, Kobe's freaking listening in the car right now.

You get that from hosting radio. But also I knew he, like when I would talk to him, like, you know, we all do the thing where, hey, can I pull you aside for a second so I don't have to ask around everybody else? And he would always like talk to me off the side. He would always like, because he knew like I knew, right? I would hear him and I would understand. And he was sort of unafraid of, I don't think he was afraid of criticism. He was not thin-skinned.

He just wanted to be understood. So you can go ahead and criticize him, but don't do it if you don't know what the hell is going on. You know? And so how does the relationship grow? Yeah, it grows over the course of that. And then as he got older, I think I was very inside the Lakers for a while. The Jim, Jeannie thing,

when they would hire Mike Brown or Dan Tony. You were an authority. Yeah, I was very in the inner circle and I knew a lot. And so he and I would talk a lot just about what was going on all the time. And it's helped me as a reporter, but I think like, how do I, I think it was, it was maybe

like I felt like he was, the fact that the best player in the league brought me into the circle of trust and confided stuff in me and told me what was happening from his perspective. And it's not like he just got a free pass. Like he, he was not afraid of, I'm telling you, he was not afraid of criticism. I wrote plenty of stuff about him that was not reverential, but he just wanted to be understood. And so the fact that I had wrote plenty of stuff about him that was not reverential, but he just wanted to be understood. And so the fact that I had those kind of dialogues with him and all the time, I think that's why we got to be so close.

And then, of course, the last couple of years, the team sucked and he was dealing with his own injuries. And we didn't really do a lot of exclusive interviews. We just talked a lot. I think we mostly emailed. He used to email, like he just emailed, like he texted. And it wasn't just one line. He was always expansive and interesting and whatever it was.

So I just think we talked a lot. I just felt like I was talking to him. He knew that I was an athlete. He knew that I was a really good writer. At one point he goes, hey, what do you think of the stories I've been doing for the Players Tribune? Like, what do you mean? He goes, no, like what do you think? I go, yeah, I think they're great, you know, I gave him like a nice hint and he goes, no, I really want to know what you think. Like, get the red pen out and give me some notes. And I was like, okay.

Craving coaching, craving criticism. The athletes are so much more confident than the writers, though. Like, they don't mind. Like Like everybody, I've told this story before, but the athletes who go onto the ESPN campus and then just see the way that insecurities consume the vanities of television, they're like, how are these people not tougher? How are they not, why, how has this not been exterminated from this competitive environment?

And it's like, you know, I used to play that, I used to be more involved in the political game. I don't think I ever played the game, but I was aware of what was happening and I was more in it and I would talk about it and you'd see the alliances and the insecurities and the politics of all of it. And then I just realized like none of that shit matters. Like you think it matters, but it really doesn't. It really truly is about the work.

Like it really is just the bottom line. Are you producing good stories that people wanna read that cut through? Are you a personality that resonates on TV and radio? And the best thing I try to do now is just like, just be myself, don't rock the boats, just do the work. Keep my head down. It's the easiest thing to remember, being yourself. The end though, you've taken us from the beginning Just be myself. Don't rock the boats. Just do the work. Keep my head down.

It's the easiest thing to remember, being yourself. The end, though, you've taken us from the beginning to the end. Okay, so the end. Now he passes away in a helicopter crash. The world is affected by the idea of somebody who was a symbol for youth dying,

that being that final, that quick, that way, and everyone does a little bit of assessing of mortality, I think. Anyone who had any sort of connection to that, because you're not thinking that that thing would be happening to him. So I live about 20 minutes from where the crash was. I live in the valley and the crash is out in Agoura. I knew exactly where it was. And I had just gotten back from Miami.

I was doing a story on like Duncan Robinson, I think. I had flown out there for the weekend. I had literally just been talking to Spoh about Kobe, you know, and we had been doing a, and I landed the night before. So I was kind of, you know, like tired from my trip, but it was like a Saturday, I think. I feel like it was a Saturday.

Yeah, it's a weekend. Yeah, it's a weekend. And my nanny was over in the morning because I was like, I need some help in the morning. I'm gonna be tired. You're like that. And she came over in the morning and she got the alert on her phone.

And she was like, her face was white, you know, and just like, oh my God. And she's like, is this true? And I was like, I don't know. And it was, you know, you're all shaky and spinning and screaming and upset. But then I kind of went into this, well, my job, I guess, now is to call this sheriff

and confirm this. And all the people I would think of to call to confirm it, I was afraid they were on the helicopter. I would call people and be like, he had a manager named Molly Carter. I called the security guard. He had two or three security guards that I had their numbers. I called them. I'm like, shit, they might have been on the plane too. I was like, shit, oh my God, I hope you're alive to hear this message. That is a grisly task. I called the sheriff's department.

They were not helpful. And then I just called, we had a news editor. Her name is Alita Withoff, and she's not there anymore. I don't even know Alita. She was great. She was like, just like everything you want in a news editor, right? She finally retired, but she was great.

She was on the desk that day, thank God, because we needed somebody really good on the desk that day. Don't publish them unpublished. Only publish what you know. Don't guess. And I just said to her, I go, listen, I made all the calls you would make, but I think the best thing I can do is just drive out there, because I'm just 20 minutes from here.

And she's like, okay, here's what they're saying is the address. And I just got in the car and drove. And I think I did some radio interviews on the drive out there. I remember talking to Michael Eaves at some point, and I was got in the car and drove. And I think I did some radio interviews on the drive out there. Like, I remember talking to Michael Eves at some point, and I was, like, shaky and crazy, and we still didn't know if this was real. But I think, like, a lot of people saw me on TV that day because I was, like, at the crash site,

and I, like, I think I probably looked horrible. Like, I didn't put any makeup on. I just hopped out of the shower and just went, you know? I maybe had a professional outfit on, I don't know. I don't even remember. Well, what are you doing here? Are you new, are you in work mode? Yeah.

Or you're curious because something horrible has happened to someone. If you don't consider him a friend, it's certainly someone you admire. No, he wasn't a friend at that point. No, at that point he retired and we'd been, we kind of, we were friends. I mean, he would talk to me, we talked about our kids,

like we talked and texted all the time. Even at most, we talked more after he retired than we did when he played. Okay, so you're panicked. Yeah. You're not. It's like getting a phone call of a friend of yours. And it's like, oh my God.

But I also had this thing where I felt like Kobe let me in. He let himself be known by me, or at least he tried. And it is now my job to tell the world about him. That was an honor that he allowed me. He did not allow everybody that close. I think he talked to a lot of people, but especially towards the end of his career and especially after he had retired. I think I was one of the closest people to him in terms of on this side of the media desk. I'm sure he had other friends and stuff. But I feel like the best way that you can honor somebody you consider

a friend at that point is to tell their story. I mean, that's what he was. He was a storyteller. He loved making his own mythology. Like a lot of his commercials, or he wrote his own commercials. Like he thought, and we talked about Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey, and we talked about Achilles, and I had this Achilles, Achilles, Achilles. Would you rather burn brightly for, you know, and die young, or would you rather live old a long time and have no one know your name?

I mean I just and the Achilles like that's what took him out as a player like and there was just this like You know, this was that he went out like a freaking Achilles right like she burned You know you burn brightly and die young and everybody knows you and everybody, and he was almost, he was larger than life and then he was even larger in death. And so on the one hand, I'm personally really sad because this was somebody who was undeniably great,

who thought I was undeniably great. And it gave me a lot of confidence in myself as a writer and a person and a reporter that he saw eye to eye with me That I was like a worthy a worthy person to speak to worthy of his trust Yeah, somebody who would have a lot of reason to be guarded like that is it that is a treasure They the trust that someone like that gives you if you're a reporter is a treasure. Well, it's just it's the ultimate validation of is a trend, well, it's just, it's the ultimate validation of what it is you do if someone who would have a lot of reason to be distrustful would trust you.

And I like, I mean, that last story I did with him when he was in his last year, I mean, I said, listen, I'm not interested in writing any more hagiography. I don't want to do, I don't want to kiss your ass. Everybody else is kissing your ass. Like, there's no reason for you to do one more of those. Let's do a story about what it really took to be you and all the yuck, all of the shit. Like let's talk about your dad. Let's talk about whatever you can say legally about Colorado. Let's

talk about Phil calling you uncoachable. Let's talk about the loneliness. Let's talk about what it was like growing up in Pennsylvania when you were raised in Italy and you didn't fit in anywhere. Let's get into that. And he was like, yeah, let's do that. We'll leave this subject in a second, but the thing that I wanted you to share with the audience because you're such an exceptional reporter is, and you've given us a thousand details already,

just small details about who he was. When you think of the most fascinating of the details, are there any that you have not yet given us? Because you unschooled about nine of them there. I like the Moonlight Sonata with the finger. That was a good one. You have a library of them, though, in terms of interesting details about him.

And the story you're talking about, the last one, had a ton of details about how he handled retirement in a way that was super unusual and aggressive. Yeah, I've actually thought about him a lot since my dad passed, to be honest. Do you know what Kobe did the night after his last game? He went to church. The 60 point game, he scored 60 points on 50 shots. 50 fucking shots.

I know, I know, it's crazy. And everybody laughs at that. I laugh at that. And he's like, I had no choice. They kept making me shoot. And I was like, yeah, okay, bro. You know what you're fucking doing. And he was exhausted by the end of it.

But it was so Kobe, okay? And then even down to his, you know, his speech, like he knew he was gonna do the speech and he knew he was gonna be whatever. And then he was like, and he drops the mic and he goes, Mamba out. Okay, it's amazing. It's amazing to do that, but it's also calculated.

He had Mamba out shirts ready to go on his website. I mean, come on man. Like you're just, like he's an amazing, because he had studied storytelling and he understood how to make a myth out of your life and become a mythological creature. He had done all that. He was really good at it. So like, I think he liked me

because I would call him on his bullshit. I'd be like, come on, this team sucks. Like the Kobe I know would hate this. Like you are not the black mamba. If you think it's fun to win 17 games, fuck that. Excuse my friends. I find myself cursing a lot when I talk like Kobe. But he, like there's no way you're okay with it.

And then he'd go, it's a beautiful journey. And then I was like, I don't buy any of this for a second. I think this is you reading Joseph Campbell, and you're talking yourself into this, okay? But that's fine. You know, like, but the truth is that he had already retired a long time when his body broke when he had the Achilles and he started going down that. He saw what happened to Michael, and he said, that is not going to be me. And he had pivoted. He had already pivoted into this whole, like he was writing those children's stories.

He was, and he would, and he goes, you know, I've been thinking a lot about Walt and I'm like, as in Disney. I'm like, right? And I remember that night I had had that story written and we were just going to run it a few days later, once everything had died down and we'd just be like, we'll do our own mic drop story after everyone else has had their turn. And Reina, and I didn't like it at first, but Reina was like, no, listen, legends go last. And I was like, oh man, that's a heavy thing to say, but thank you, that's really flattering. But okay, how are we not sure that people are going to be so sick of this stuff they

don't want to read one more? And she's like, they will. But you like pressure, you say. You like pressure. Yeah, I like pressure. So the pressure was on me. And I was nuts writing that story. I texted him and I go, hey, I need inspiration.

What songs do you listen to when you're doing your crazy blackout workouts? And he would tell me, he gave me a list and he was like, I listen to Tribe and I listen to SIA and I listen to the Transylvanian Orchestra, you know, and I listen to Mozart and I just downloaded all that shit and I was like into it, you know? And I would go to a hotel and I would just write all, I used to like rent hotel rooms and write all night for like three days straight. This is definitely before I had kids. But like I was- Same by the way, not the renting of hotel rooms,

but I know what it's like. The cocoon is what- You need a cocoon. Yeah, I need to block it out. And I can't do it during the day because people are calling me and things are happening, but at night it's quiet. And so I was just like, I mean, days and days would go by

and I would do draft after draft. And he liked that. I was, I go, you are, this story is kicking my ass. And he's like, and I was like, but I am going to get this right. Like we are going to, I'm going to push. And he goes, he wrote back like in all caps, like uncompromising.

And I'm like, God, you're so like crazy. You know, like, I love your, how crazy you are. Crazy, crazy. But like, you know, I can only do that for a little bit. Well, most people can. Otherwise, everyone would be Kobe if they could do it intensely. He did this every day for 20 years. Correct.

I did this and then I was like, I need a minute. I'm going to go to Hawaii. You visited the space, but you don't want to live there. I went there for a little bit, and it was nuts. Okay? But I'm glad I went there a little bit. And I think he... He welcomed you.

It sounds like, like, come stand next to this. Come here. This is what it's really like. And then I remember he flew home that night on his helicopter for after the game. And I realized then I was like, oh, shit, I'm gonna have to redo this whole story. Like I was, we were done and I was just gonna add a little bit from just Dakota. And then I'm like, no, he scored 60.

The whole story was about how bullshit this farewell tour was. And I was feeling so brave that I was writing this and calling my friend bullshit. You know, like I'm calling him, like this is bullshit. You know, like, and then I was like oh it wasn't Pivoted he was off with Walt Disney and they did the 60 points And then I was like that was a mindfuck

And then I called my editor and I was like we have to redo this and she's like you have to get him You have to talk to him, and I'm like oh, okay. That's an easy get sure take home. You're retired now Can you call me tomorrow? Like, but he did. I was like, you just fucked up my story, man. You need to call me. I have to redo it. And he was like, whatever it was.

And he actually called me that day. He was like, I'll call you in a little bit. I'm doing a few things, but I want to get, when I'm coming back from the office. And then we talked again. And then that's how I re-topped the whole story. But it was like, it was really interesting to go through that and to be in that world

for just a little bit. But I love the like playlist, right? Like I listened to Sia. Sia. No, it was a good playlist. That was like the third most unusual choice that you listed there. You had the Trans-Siberian Orchestra, okay.

Tribe Called Quest, okay. I mean, all these make sense, but whoa. But I think he was just like a force of nature, and so covering it when he died, I just, whoa. But I got mythological about it. I was like, he's Achilles. And I just said, the best thing that I can do, the best way I can be strong now is to not fall apart. And this is the most unbelievably sad story,

not just because he died, but because of all those little kids on the plane, the girls on the, oh, his daughter and those other girls. I mean, that's just the worst story I ever had to go out and do, especially because we didn't know all the girls were on the plane at first. We just thought it was him.

And then, but like the thing that you have to do in those moments is like, be like, my job now is to tell the world everything I know and this is what people want to hear. And this is what people need to do. And so I am going to do that. And I don't, I didn't feel like, I felt like it was my job, but I also felt like it was a privilege. Like I got to know him. I actually know him. Like a lot of times people die and I,

like Bill Walton died recently. I don't have any good Bill Walton stories. I felt bad about it. I really liked Bill Walton. I know him a little bit, but I wasn't lucky enough to have a great story, you know? And I'm not gonna fake it. Right?

Like he's a, I watched him for years. I know his son, I know him, but I don't have any great amazing stories like everybody else does. And so like it's a privilege that I have great Kobe stories and I can give you those details, right? And I can tell that. And I think that's, look, we're like,

none of us get out of this alive. Well, you just said that you've thought a lot about Kobe recently because of what you've been going through with your father. What is happening there? What are you doing with those two things? I think it's more like the day after his last game, like when I would have felt like all of the air rush out of the room and what is my life

now and existential crisis time, that dude got up at 7.30 in the morning after he got – he went to bed at 3.30 and whatever, and he went to church. And then he went to the office, and then he worked on whatever was next. And it wasn't as big or as exciting as like what he had done the night before, but he just – it's like, you know, chop wood, carry water, like whatever you want to say, like this sort of keep the routine and stay strong. Because whatever emotions you're going to feel, you're going to feel them. Like whether you're doing it while you're hanging out with a friend or while you're working out, like it's going to hit you at some point. I'm not just escaping them.

It's going to hit you at some point. I'm not just escaping them. I'm just, there's a sort of devotion to craft and a devotion to routine and to being great and just maintaining a level of greatness. I don't know, I admired how he did that. And then I remember after, when he passed, I was like, this is now my job to do this. I knew that very strongly, you know?

I think right now I'm actually feeling, I'm kind of okay about my dad because I have things to do. Right? I have things that I have to do, it is my job now to do this. But like, I'm sure this summer later on, I'll be like really, things will quiet down and I will be in a quiet space by myself and I'll fall apart.

But like, chop wood, carry water, get up, go walk, go for a walk, you know? Go on. The responsibility and the duty that I felt after my brother passed, there's an initial stun and you go and do the things that but it's it's it's camouflaged like it's oh yeah it's it's not distraction but it's through it like you're just you're not you're not feeling all the high I didn't you know

going to the premiere should have been this crowning moment of my life or whatever, but it's, it's so numb and bittersweet and I'm not, I'm not feeling all that accomplishment. Like I sort of kind of in a way, you know, I got a little build up. I was, it was fun for a while. I was texting me pictures of the billboards, you know, texting me pictures of, you know, the show happening and the buildup to that. And then the last couple of weeks, obviously, things weren't well with my dad and it felt I couldn't get excited about that.

But I just show up, just do it, just walk through it. RICK VALENTINI Did you feel him there at all? Because I have felt in moments of inspiration or and I haven't had many of them because I've said a couple of times here that I've lost enthusiasm for things in general in a way that hurts, but I have, I've felt him around things that feel good. Yeah. And I, it,

I know what you're talking about at the lack of it, lack of, loss of enthusiasm. Like it feels, everything feels duller. Well, you've just, you're coming off of a real career achievement, right? It's not just your name in light. Your work on a project that was deeply personal to you that you were an authority on, Hollywood has turned into a dramatic story that your executive produced. And also like, I made that shit happen.

You know what I mean? Like, there's a, that's what I think I'm most proud of. Like, people have ideas all the time and they say they're gonna do it, but like, I put the work in and I figured out how to make it happen from soup to nuts. And like, you know what that's like, because you've built a company and you've done your,

like, you know, like, I was getting upset about like, some little review here or there, and I know people are gonna be like, oh, the players don't look like them, or you know, whatever. I don't some little review here or there, and I know people are going to be like, oh, the players don't look like them or whatever. I don't care whatever people are going to say. But there's a part of me that's like, but you didn't do all of this. Like you didn't do everything that it took to do this. Like it's not like I just wrote a story and someone optioned my script

and I came up and showed the premiere. Like, you know, you're deeply involved every step of the way. Years. Years, you know, and so and not just not just the work, but like the vision, right? And so- So you were proud of yourself. Yeah, I was proud of myself. And you know he would have been proud of you. 100%.

You know he was proud of you. Yeah, he asked me all the time about it. And like, I also feel like with my dad, like, my dad was really good at getting through hard things. Like, he had health stuff his whole life. Like, he had a AFib and kidney stones. And we almost lost him 30 years ago. He had a blood clot where he was in the hospital

that went into his lungs. And you know, just like he was a guy, like he was born into sort of a poor family. He was one of five kids, like very similar background to yours. And you know, his dad was a asbestos miner, and my grandmother worked in a little convenience store, and she was a bartender.

She was all, you know, very like salt of the earth. Like most of my family like on his side lives in these dusty mining towns in New Mexico or Arizona or what. He went to Bakersfield High or South High. And you know, he was the one out of five that went to college and he went to UCLA and put himself through working at Westward Home Market and sleeping in his car and whatever. He just got through stuff. He went through poverty as a kid and he made himself into a teacher and then he made himself

into my coach and my dad. I always thought he sort of saw the world through my eyes. I got to do a lot of the things that he wasn't able to do. And so, yeah, it makes me cry now. But I felt like I know he was proud of me. I know he loved me. I felt like it's, as we say, you can feel sad about it, but you also can feel really, really grateful I had him

as long as I did. You probably feel like that too, right? People will go, oh, maybe it's a little weird you're so close to your parents. I think they're jealous. They should be, right? The last six months for you and I, right? Because I'm by a deathbed as well. It is somehow, simultaneously,

and I'm really a bit embarrassed by how often I am crying on this show about this stuff. But it is the strangest thing to tell people about grief because Kobe Bryant dies suddenly and that's a terrible way to lose somebody because you don't get to say all the things, but as horrible as the last six months are and I wouldn't wish watching that deterioration on anybody, I am so grateful for the blessing of being able to learn whatever I learned in those six months.

I don't know what you feel like you have learned. Like he was so stoic. I mean like, you know, six months of barfing your guts out on chemo, like losing 50 pounds. Pancreatic cancer is the worst. Like it's the worst of them. It's the most aggressive of them. I know.

And it's like, you can see they're afraid, and you can see how sad they are. And I think for my dad, it was more about pride. He had always been strong. He had always had strong legs, and he was a gardener, and he was a climber in his hill. And he could always like, it like, and so like, it was really, that was really hard for him

not to be able to like stand up and walk like he wanted to. Watching somebody go through it, I think as a man that was hard. To need help from a caregiver or to like, can you help me up? That must have crushed him. But I just tried to be like, let's not make a big thing about this. I know you're proud and I'm not's not make a big thing about this. I know you're proud and I'm not gonna make a big deal about it. You know, like I'm gonna give you your dignity

as much as I possibly can because that's what I would want. You know, like when I'm laid up or if I, you know, I had a couple of C-sections so I'm in the hospital a couple of days. I'm like a caged animal in the hospital. Get me out of here. I don't wanna be here.

I wanna be home. I don't like being, you know, same thing I told you with my back. Like to not be able to do stuff is very humbling. And so like I just liked anybody who would like be kind to me, but also give me my dignity. You mentioned a couple of things that are a bit, I'm not going to say triggering for me, but I'm trying to keep it down because my brother needed help going to the bathroom. And I try to sit around the corner.

But when you mentioned seeing your father afraid. Yeah. I... He called me in a couple times and he was like, he wouldn't get out of bed. And he was just like, I just need a little pep talk. I don't know why I'm so weak. And he just cried a couple times. That was a hard one.

But I just, you know what? I didn't cry in front of him. I didn't do that. No, neither did I. No, I was like, no, you're going to, like, here's your pep talk. And I would just give him that pep talk. And I just kept myself from really, like, I said, this is more for you than for, like, for me, I'm going to go fall apart later.

But I'm going to give this to you, where this is what you need. I'm not the one laying there. The thing, it just made me feel so helpless, seeing the fear in him wanting, it's my little brother, wanting to remove it. And just got, I got nothing. I'm not solace. I'm not company, like you're just afraid and I can't do anything. Yeah You were there though Yeah, like you were no like you say you're not doing anything, but you were there. That's what you can do But I can't help I can't I can't I can't help with the fear. Yeah, you know You can tell them they're not gonna be alone

And I think that's like that's all we can ask at the, right? You don't suffer and that you're not alone. I don't know what words to give, right? Because I have no, I have, I can't say what the lessons are. I'm still raw. I just, I hope that it somehow starts to feel better for you. It just seems too soon for any of that to be. Like, I don't know what the next little bit is going to be for you, but I appreciate you sharing it with us here.

And I appreciate you coming and doing any of it during this time. Because I... I said no to other things. Right? You know, I said no to other things. But I was like, no, we'll do Dantzsche. Let's do Dantzsche. It'll feel good. We'll go to other things. Right? I said no to other things, but I was like, no, we'll do dance shows. Let's do dance shows. It'll feel good. We'll go to West Hollywood.

I didn't know you were going to be here. I thought you'd be remote. I was happy when I saw you outside. I am happy to see you too, and I thank you both for the vulnerability, and we should tell people that the work that you're proud of is something that people should check out, because it's well outside of what I'm guessing you would have imagined at any point in your career being able to do.

Like, I don't know how it is that you were able to pull all of that off to be able to turn this story of a lifetime into a dramatic achievement for you. So thank you for being with us. And I would suggest to the folks that they watch clipped on Hulu, look at us, blubbering messes at the end. I know, God, I know. How's my eye makeup?

Am I good? How's mine? How's my eye makeup? Good? At some point, this is going to stop. I'm going to stop doing this. They didn't bring the tissues out west. You're like, boy, fire's going over here.

I'm going to have to fire somebody for not bringing the tissues. Thank you again, Ramona. I appreciate it. Thanks, Dan. Yeah. Thanks, Dan. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.