The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Sam Morril

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

Don’t worry, the consummate comedian Sam Morril doesn’t understand Dan Le Batard’s fascination with comedians either... Sam shares his thoughts with Dan on the “slow climb” of making it in comedy and how everyone’s been forced to adapt to the new status quo, no matter how funny they are. They look at the role of "freedom of speech" in the scene today and debate if all comedy comes from a place of pain. Dan and Sam also open up about their rigid self-critique and, naturally, they talk about what brought them to therapy. Hilarious, right? You'll be surprised with this one...  Watch Sam's Netflix special, "Same Time Tomorrow", streaming now and see Sam on his "Class Act Tour". Go to SamMorril.com for tour dates and tickets.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm really excited about this one. I love the funny people and this is legitimately one of the funniest people in the universe in at least the languages that I understand. There may be some other comedians in other places that I don't... This is tough because you tell me not to be funny in this interview, and then you're like, this is one of the funniest guys. And then people are going to listen, they're going to be like, this guy fucking sucks. If they're familiar with the way I interview, I can go dark and deep and do awkward things

with comedians. I have a history of interviewing comedians poorly, but I believe you're going to help me with that because I think what you sculpt and the way you do it, and I should tell the audience, it's Sam Moral and he is internationally, someone who performs nationally, internationally and is very well known as a funny person. So you come in here with that expectation. If you say so. And I don't know how I would have,

how would I describe your wit to a stranger? I don't know if it's sardonic. I don't know how I would describe it exactly. What's the correct word? I can't, you can't ask me to describe myself. That's like poison for a comedian, you know? It's like, that's for other people to say. Okay, so your humor then,

the reason I wanted to do this with you is because, and you've got a Netflix special, same time tomorrow that people should check out if they want to understand your work a little bit better. But have you explored where the roots of your comedy come from? You come from a family of both Ivy League lawyers, but a bunch of artists too all around your family. Yeah, a little bit of everything. Blended family.

I think, you know, you just, I was the youngest in a blended family. So I think you, you're like, you make sure you're heard still. I went from like having all my mom's attention to like, okay, now it's shared attention with my new stepdad who became my dad. I think a lot of it stems from like, I want to be heard. I heard Chappelle once say that the youngest sibling is always a tension breaker.

And I think that's true. Cause you can kind of say anything as a youngest sibling. And yeah, I was, they, my older siblings are so intelligent that I was like, well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to be one of that, one of those, you know, so that they set the bar so high that I was kind of like, all right, I'm out for whatever they're doing. So I got to find my own lane. And you know, all right, I'm out for whatever they're doing. So I got to find my own lane. And, uh, you know, it was, Was there pressure to have like a more conventional path? Like that's a, I think you do the hardest thing. Okay. A person in front of a microphone with only their talent, having to make a living with the expectation of funny, I think it's the hardest thing in entertainment.

It is. And it is. I mean, I think my style I saw early on at Open Mikes. I was doing a lot of one-liners and short jokes so I think at Mikes those were tough because if you're doing like a story the punchlines weren't as obvious so you can kind of get away with talking over them if you weren't doing well but if I'm bombing I'm just just like, but I'm bon- This is nothing, you know? So- You called that fun! I've seen you call that fun! Well, sometimes it's fun. When you're more confident, it's fun, but when you're still finding your footing, you're like, this fucking sucks.

And, uh, I mean, you saw me in a venue, you told me Fontaine Blue in Miami, where I'm like, it was like a banquet hall, like, not a good booking. It was a weird- I saw you recently at the fountain blue, and it was a banquet hall, like not a good booking. It was a weird, I saw you recently at the fountain blue and it was a banquet hall with like a few hundred people. I'm like, I felt like I was watching a treasure because I'm like, this person is so much better than this venue. I let them know that. I mentioned that. I was like, I shouldn't be here.

No, it was, that was a tough room. I, it's just tough when the, when the ceilings are high and the walls, there's nowhere for the laughs to come back so that you feel like every joke you're starting at zero. So those are tough. And you know, Miami crowds are tough to begin with. They're just tough. They're not, they don't care. There's like, you play like Fort Lauderdale or Orlando or Tampa.

They're like working class people and they're kind of, they're going to listen. Miami, they show up 30 minutes late. They don't give a shit. They're like a butt influencer. They're not like, they're not like listen, they're like, I don't connect to this. I don't care. So. You, when I say that you've described it as fun and it makes sense that you would, you would have the confidence now to see it as fun. Norm MacDonald played with that all the time. But man, that confidence is hard earned.

Bossam Youssef was on with us recently and he described it as constantly dying, that it's the feeling of constantly dying. I don't know how you get to fun, but my God, the relief and the confidence in you knowing, no, I'm good at this. Like I'm if I'm bombing now, I'm not gonna be bombing in five minutes. It takes time. When you're building a new hour,

like, my hour right now is ready to tape. I'm in a good place with it. I could tape this. I'm gonna tape in like a month and a half, but, yeah, when you're building, you don't have that confidence. I mean, that's the thing is, if you keep writing a new hour,

you have to keep starting from scratch and you don't know they're funny out of the gate. So if you see a comic that's like too confident, you're kind of like, you almost don't trust them. You're kind of like, how much do you write? You know, if you know this is killer, I almost don't trust it. Oh wow. So your process is to doubt, to doubt, to doubt, to sculpt, to sculpt, to sculpt, to make it

so meticulous And I don't think people know this about people who are as expert as you you must be obsessive Compulsive about how you're sculpting that obsessed with that to the detriment of like other balances in your life because you have to Sculpt that you sound like my mom right now. Am I wrong? Is there other stuff you have sam? Yeah, no, I Am I wrong? Is there other stuff you have, Sam? Yeah. No, I... Yeah, I mean, you have to...

It's like anything if you care about it. Like, I mean, I would compare it to anything if you're making a movie or if you're writing a song. Like, I heard Leonard Cohen say, Hallelujah! Took him five years. You know? Like, I'm not comparing one of my jokes about masturbating to Hallelujah. But, yeah, you got to hone a joke.

You got to make it... You got to... I mean, Seinfeld always says he's like, never done with a joke. You gotta make it, you gotta, I mean, Seinfeld always says he's like never done with a joke, which I'm like, all right, at some point you gotta be done, I think. You gotta, I have to move on. It's like, they're almost like kids, you have to like send them off to college. You're like, you're done, you're out.

But I, yeah, I'm done with a joke at a certain point, but it is tough when you tape a special, I feel like this inevitably happens. The comedians, you tape a special, you're done with a joke at a certain point, but it is tough when you tape a special. I feel like this inevitably happens to comedians. You tape a special, you're done with that material, but then you're touring and you have to do some of the old jokes just to survive. You can't do all of New 45 quite yet. And then you're like, fuck, I came up with a good new line and it's already taped. So that it's just going to happen.

The art of it. Can you sort of explain to the audience how meticulous you are and how much you care about this as craft? I have a hard time referring to myself as an artist. I don't like, I think I'm an entertainer, you know? I think the word, the arts, it just feels like pretentious to me and I feel like that's something we have to

rebel against as comedians because once you're like, I'm a fucking artist. I'm like, dude, I got good at this performing in like chicken wing serving comedy clubs and strip malls. I have a hard time like... Oh, but this underestimates how brave it is as a career choice. Like, okay, fine. You don't have to drape it and all of that. Like, and your comedy, man, you feel very every man to me, but it's artful.

It's indisputably artful. Your delivery and how you're doing it, you have a very unique style that is all your own, and it's not just because you were funny as a kid. I think this is my problem with award shows right now is that like, I feel like so many of these celebrities, all they do is get showered with like statues and nominations and gift bags and all this shit,

and they can't take a joke about themselves. Meanwhile, I feel like comedians you have to stay humble because if you're writing, you will bomb. That's just part of the process. So I think that's why most comedians you meet will be pretty normal. I mean, you just can't really get a big head if you're writing, I don't think. Do you mistrust praise?

Like will it make you less hungry to just- Sometimes, yeah. I think you do well with a chip on your shoulder, right? Look, I'm a big Knicks fan. I see Jaylen Brunson got left out of the starting five for the All-Star game and I'm mad for him because I root for that guy to succeed. I love the team, but I think this type of team represents New York because they really thrive

with a chip on their shoulder. I think good defensive teams always do and you can eat good defense to win. And yeah, I think if I'm like out of a breakup or something and I'm like, fuck, all I can do is throw myself into comedy when you're fueled by something, or you know, when you don't get something, say like Netflix doesn't make an offer for your next special or say you know

back in the day and I did a YouTube special and no one it was on YouTube not by choice it was like no one wants to buy this special I think it's my best special and it's on YouTube and you still think it's your best probably? Probably. This new hour is pretty good. But that one was just so hungry. I was so... I was pretty angry at that point. I remember Bill Burr once said to me, he's like, don't become that guy. He's like, it stinks like a fish and it follows you everywhere. And I was like, that's true.

I was just pissed because I was like... It's one of the things where you're like... You're killing on the road, you're like, and you're like, what the fuck do I have to do? I came from the era where like, you know, I'm very fortunate, I feel like comedy's in a boom right now, but when I started it wasn't that way. And I came from the era when the goal was

to get a Comedy Central special, and then slowly I watched Comedy Central kind of dissolve. So you know, you get the special, you work hard for it, you hone these jokes for two years or so, or however many years on the road, in strip malls that are papered with free tickets with people that aren't half, you know, they're half listening sometimes, they have no investment in the show, they're not listening. And then you get the special.

You go, oh my God, I got Amy Schumer produced my first one with my first hour with them. And that was like a big deal that she wanted. She did my friend Mark Normand and Rachel Feinstein's as well. And it was like, you know, it's a big deal for us. But at the same time, I'm like, watch my special at 11 p.m. on Friday on Comedy Central. And even then people were like, what? Like, what is this? 1992?

No, that's not how we consume content. I have seen you sound like an old head a bit while you're evolving because the entire landscape has changed. Social media has made that audience. It's not strip balls anymore. You guys all have your own brands and, you know, Rogan's, you know, a comedy empire who can just birth comedians because you have your own power now and you've seen it all change.

You've lived it. You've lived enough of it to be awed in the presence of David Letterman as any comedian should be. But also to see the whole industry change where, you know, Burt Kreischer can take off his shirt and suddenly sell out stadiums. Well, he's doing more than taking his shirt off. No, I don't mean that as insult. But yeah, you know, I always want to get on Letterman.

I was like, man, I never got on Letterman. Then I got on his Netflix show. That's how much the industry has changed, you know? So yet, social media is really the new one, is you look at social media and you're like, okay, you post your jokes on social media, they get shared. The new problem comedians are going to have is social media and censorship because now the rules are changed. They keep bringing the goalpost in.

A joke that wouldn't have been offensive to them three or four years ago is now they're like, you're on time out on Instagram or something and you're like, well, this is how I conducted my business. So you have to keep staying ahead of the curve because all it is, it's all about ad sales now and it's becoming more like Instagram felt like the Wild West a few years ago. And now it's like NBC or something.

We're like, oh, I can't curse. It's quite an obstacle course. Like how do you navigate it? Because you are... One of the things that people might not understand about comedians is you have to go around the globe and go make your money bar to bar and there's not health insurance and stuff. There are a small group of people brave enough to do it and a smaller group of people who do it successfully and make money off of it.

And now you're navigating as your business and your brand something that you're an old head about. I don't know how sophisticated you are with YouTube algorithms. Yeah. I mean, the business changed when I was doing comedy as it always changes. You know, I mean, look, I think about like Lucille Ball. She was a radio star. Then she was a TV star.

Like, okay, well, the business is always evolving. Before that, it was silent pictures. Then it was, you know, black and white pictures. Then it was, you know, you get movies in color, you get vertigo, whatever, you know, comes out. But, uh, so the business is always changing. Entertainment is always changing. But, uh, this one, when I started, everyone was like, you got to go to the Montreal Comedy Festival. will change your life because in the 90s these comics were getting you know six seven figure deals for sitcoms and half the time they wouldn't even get made they'd call them holding deals so

you're like oh I think you just I just can't go NBC game when I can't go to CBS okay that's a holding deal so you you're getting that much money to just not make a show at the time. Right. By the time I went to Montreal, it was like, I got an agent, I think, and it wasn't even like a good agency. They were like, we'll sign you. I'm like, that's, that's all I can. Everyone was talking it up and, uh, you didn't know that, right? You thought, you thought all of this, you thought there was something bigger out there

or the success looked different? No, I just didn't know it'd be such a slow climb. I mean, you don't, and look, some people do burst overnight now with, with social media, even if they're working for a while. But I think, yeah, I go to Montreal. I think the guy who signed me, he was like the big agent at the agency at the time.

He was like, I'm, I'm kind of the guy here. And I mean, to show you how invested they who signed me, he was like the big agent at the agency at the time. He was like, I'm kind of the guy here. And I mean, to show you how invested they were in me, he left for another agency. I didn't even get an email. So I just signed with them and I was like, oh, he's like, oh, he doesn't work here anymore. I'm like, oh, okay. I guess I'm not important. Yeah. That was your rep and doesn't even give you a heads up because you weren't a money maker

or enough of a money maker? Sure, absolutely. I mean, what they do when they try to sign you is like, there's like the closer, he's like the big dog at the agency and he comes in like, this is who I rep and I'm like, you're supposed to be like, oh my God. But you know, as you get older, you're like, well, are you going to pay attention to me? You know what I mean? So, yeah, I definitely had, I mean, look, I had managers over the year.

Managers don't do anything really anymore. There's a couple good managers, I guess, but they take 10% of what you're doing on the road and they have nothing to do with it. The agents earn their money. They're booking you on the road, but a manager, you're kind of like, I don't even know why I'm cutting a check. And you realize that after you miss enough connect flights and there's enough delays and you're like, well, you didn't have any sweat in this game, you know?

Well, I'm wondering when you look at other comedians, let's just say, and I really don't mean, I know Burt Kreischer managed masterfully the social media landscape to help build his following. So, I didn't mean it as in some... No, I know, I know. But do you look at some comedians now who don't have to grind the way you do because there is a shortcut to your own audience? No, because you pay now or you pay later.

If you pop now, what Louis used to always say to me was like, you don't want this because you come back down here, you want this, you know? And then you realize whatever comics tell you what you they're always just talking about their own career like Louis grinded in the clubs for years so they're explaining their own career to you but but I think he's right I think I think ultimately hopefully it lasts longer if if it's a longer road because people have kind of grown with you and they feel more of a loyalty to you. Yeah, I think, you know, you pay now or you pay later. The lifestyle seems to me.

I don't know what is true about your personal life. I've heard you make fun of relationships on stage, but the lifestyle seems like it would be really hard to have real love with anyone who's not just another comedian. Well, yeah, I've done that before. It's a mistake, I think, usually to date within your own field. But like, how many people just date within their own field? Like, how many sportscasters, date sportscasters, how many actors date actors, how many lawyers date lawyers? Psychiatrists date psychiatrists. It's just easier. There's an understanding, right? I

Think it probably is gonna make your life harder because one of them is gonna resent the other one in some way Especially if you're trying to build a life Because you can't you can't both be touring if you know you're gonna have kids and stuff but You can't both be touring if, you know, you're gonna have kids and stuff. But, and I will say, as someone who's done it before, it's just stressful all the times. You're like, well, we can meet in this city. You know, it's like, it's not ideal. But it seems just generally lonely and not conducive. Even though maybe some people think the comedian's lifestyle is wonderful.

Touring the world, telling jokes, what's not great about that. But I've been enough in enough green rooms in a dirty bar that, you know, that has 300 people in it who have just left and now you're on the road somewhere in some city you don't know what 1 a.m. looking to buy french fries somewhere. Um, yeah, it depends on the city, I guess. It depends on where you're at in your life. Like it gets hard more for me when I just get run down, but you know, I try to stay healthier than I did a few years ago on the road because your body just doesn't hold up, you know. So I do feel like, yeah, it's not... My mom used to warn me when I was in my early 20s on the road and she'd be like, this isn't

going to make for a good life. And I'm like, well, what else am I going to do at this point? I'm in a freaking... I'm in a Likinta in Indianapolis. Like, it's kind of... I'm all in. I'm doing a club called Crackers. That was the name of the club.

And... And, well, that must not have felt very good in terms of support. That must have felt like... Here you are. Walk me through this part of it, okay? Yeah. Ivy League educated siblings. Yeah.

You're the young one. Yeah. Your mother was... She had an artistic streak, right? Yeah. So she should support the arts. She does. Look, she does. She likes what I do. I think on some level she wishes I was more of like

a... She's like, why don't you do like shouts and murmurs in The New Yorker? I'm like, I don't fucking... Like I did Conan last week. That's not enough, you know? It's like stuff like that. She wants you to write intellectual comedy for The New Yorker. Oh, yeah. I remember my parents would be impressed by shit that had nothing to, like, I remember what would impress my dad was, he was like, you got ridden up in the New York Times and I looked it up and it was like not a very positive spin on my comedy and I was like, yeah, they didn't, that wasn't very nice where they were and he was like, but it's the times,

you know, they were just happy I was in the New York Times. But are they not understanding where their son connects with his audience? Because you can go high and low. Like, how are they not understanding how smart you actually are about what you've built? I just think like, look, your parents aren't going to understand if you're being true to yourself. I mean, like, I always think about my favorite comics. I'm like, would their mom like their stuff?

I don't know. Well, I do understand why parents would not understand that you're majoring in comedy. Like, I didn't even know you could major in college in comedy. Oh yeah, I made that up. I was just lazy. I didn't want to do anything.

So I was like, I was in a school at NYU where they were like, you can create your own major. I was like, cool. And then I just had an advisor kind of guide it. I just didn't want to do anything but comedy. I was out every night doing stand-up. I was handing out flyers on the street, not with a lot of enthusiasm.

I wasn't doing it. I wasn't good at getting people in the door, but they would sometimes pay or just give you stage time to do that. So I was like, oh, I would just do that. And man, yeah, I remember you would bomb. The worst of it was you would hand out flyers. I would do it on this place a lot on 108th Street,

the underground lounge, you know, I would hand out flyers and be like, oh, it's a hot lineup tonight. This guy's on, I'd say my name. They'd be like, oh, okay. And then they'd be in the crowd to be like four people and they'd just bring me up and they'd be like, what the, that guy? The ticket guy?

That's who? And I'd bomb him and they'd be like, man, this guy ripped us off. I'm like, how else am I gonna get a crown? I don't know. I can't imagine you doing something like that enthusiastically, having the confidence at that stage in your life to do something

like that confident. Oh, it was a winter. I was like an old soul. I would be like downing a flask of like Jim Beam. I was like, I was like, oh, fuck this winter, you know, comedy. No, I sucked at it. I was terrible. So you weren't much of a salesman, but you were out there believing very much that that

was the path for you. I would do it because they would give me stage time. So it was like the required, you had to do at least two hours to get stage time and to me it was better than an open mic because open mics were just all comedians so they weren't listening they were just focusing on their own set um i would do the open mics too but i just prefer i would rather do the flyers because i just wanted a quality crowd also early on you you'd have to bring people to show you bring paying'd bring paying customers. And then later on, I don't know, like, well, you're doing the same thing when you're a headliner.

It's just, they're actually going to see a better show now, but, you know. What can you tell us about what the struggle was like? Like the details, how long it lasted, where, where and when you felt like, okay, now this isn't just a dream. I'm gonna actually be able to do this. Well, it just, it gets better every year

if you're on the right track. And I think, you know, a lot of people start in, maybe they'll start in Chicago or New Orleans or wherever. And they become kind of a bigger fish in a smaller pond. And then, not that I'm not calling Chicago a small pond, it's a good comedy scene there. But like, you know, then they move to New York and it's They kind of have to start over a little but people like oh, I heard this guy's good

Like I remember when Hannibal Burris came to New York from Chicago He kind of had some heat already people were like oh look out for this guy, you know and That and that's one way to do it I started in New York so people just saw me when I sucked Like people only in New York saw Hannibal when he was already good. But there were very few people who were funny out of the gate. Like I had a few jokes that worked out of the gate, but I wasn't good yet. But then each year, what for me took it to the next level was I won this comp. I would win comedy competitions because I had short jokes.

So you would do all these weird competitions. I remember we did one, it was called March Madness and it was like bracket style. So it's comedian versus comedian, 64 slots, starts with one minute sets, then two minute, then four, then you know, you can move on. And I would do really well on those because my jokes were short. So I would just kill another, some comics would be like, I'm a storyteller, I can't kill in one minute. So I would knock that guy some comics to be like I'm a storyteller I can't kill in one minute so I would knock that guy out you know I remember I think my opener was I was like man this is like eight mile for juice that was my opener and that would kill I was like all right I'm back and

then yeah I was I would do well in those and the and the prize was you'd get work at the clubs or like okay now I'm pasted the clubs or even if you didn't really win they'd be like this guy's funny. We should work him. Caroline's was really good to me. They're no longer there But that was a legendary New York club Caroline's this club comics which close with you know, they owe in a lot of money to a lot of comedians I think but Yeah, I think I came in second at Caroline's at a 64 I lost to Dan Soder. If you know Dan Soder, he's hilarious.

Great comic. And then in comics, I won. I beat Mike Lawrence, who Mike is great. I'm creating a show with Mike Lawrence. So it's like you stay in touch with it. You know these people forever. It's kind of crazy. But I love Mike's mind.

He's brilliant. But you know It's doing that you're the clubs are like we're gonna work you and I remember at the time They're like, okay, you can have any weekend you want at the club and I was like I want to open for Greg Geraldo He was one of my favorite comics and they were like he's booked and then they were like you have Jim Florentine I was like, okay cool, and I opened that was my first weekend ever with Jim Florentine. He was so fucking cool he was such a nice guy and I was like, oh, okay, cool. And I opened, that was my first weekend ever with Jim Florentine. He was so fucking cool. He was such a nice guy and included me

in like every conversation. Like I think a tell is new, but I did pretty well. And they were like, all right, we're gonna stop. We're gonna start using you. You start to do the other clubs. I do like comic strip and they would do a thing called late night. So you go on after the regular show.

So say it's an 8 p.m. show. You can show up at like 10.30. And you know, be me and a bunch of my friends were like, we're not past for the regular show yet, but we can do late night. So like, all right, the crowd's tired. It's two and a half hours into a show. They're not a hot. My audition there was maybe the worst setup ever of my career. I mean, you remember waiting on lines and stuff for this, but I do an audition at Comic Strip. Okay, 8.30 show, you draw like a lottery number, six audition spots. I land six out of six. I'm like, fuck, I'm going on like almost three hours into the show.

This is gonna be bad. I go on, I'm waiting to go on. The guy before me, say there's 80 people in the room Which is like decent at the time like I can kill for 80 people He is a complete nervous breakdown before me some of these guys were like guys They had no they had no reason to be there. So he goes up and on stage. He goes. What am I doing? I'm fucking bombing. This is horrible and people just start leaving. They're like, I'm not watching this and I'm like I'm like, oh my god. I waited like months for this audition and I'm gonna that's your that's your opener I go on there's 12 people left after there

were 80 oh no and I go on and I just had I addressed it and that kind of got a laugh and I just I'm like just I got 12 people let's try to kill for 12 people it's whatever but I the fact that I didn't give up and I kind of worked, I worked them and stuff. When the person before you had a nervous breakdown on stage. I was so angry. I was like, how is this happening? But then you're like, get the anger out of your head. Just try to be present and like your job is to make him laugh. And the owner of the club who's passed away since Richie Tinkin was like, you know, he's like a raspy voice. He had, I think he has some sort of cancer from smoking cigarettes this whole life.

And he goes, kid, you know, you didn't give up. I'm going to pass you. But that was passed for late night. I wasn't passed for the regular thing. And, uh, yeah, I mean, the late night crowds were awful. I think they're like, like people were drunken awful at that point. They would, they would, you know, they'd hackle you. They talked to you like, I got five minutes.

And then you get to a point where you're like I'm killing I'm doing new stuff every night and then finally they didn't pass me the first club that really works you they don't they don't recognize you until someone else does it's almost like it's almost like a girl at a bar where you're like she's like yeah whatever and then some other girl starts talking and she's like oh maybe this guy's alright you know they didn't they didn't see that I was funny yet and they did it to another comic I started with Joe Mackey with great jokes and they didn't really show us any love until you know Joe did

late night with Jimmy Fallon they were like oh maybe he's funny I'm like we've been funny but it took other people validating us for you to give us you know any spots so Caroline's was the first to really take care of me and I stayed away from the comedy cellar because they were like to me The the best club and I didn't want them. I didn't want them to see me until I was really strong and and You know I so I told you I was good at these competitions I I was getting by with like a shitty living just like someone merch on the road doing whatever. What took it over was I do this festival in Atlanta called Laughing Skull and it was like, I think like 600 applicants. Again, it's like 60 something people they choose from the videos. I'm there. They're

like winner gets whatever, but the big prize was like you get a year of road work. We will put you on the road for a year through clubs and we'll make sure they book you We're basically gonna pay for your training like this is gonna be you a year on the road is gonna be the college Education that you didn't want when you were making up comedy as a major and I think I was 23 or something It was a big deal. So I Where it got hard was you have to do different material on each round So first round I do oak and I do like top two move on. I came in second.

I was like, I thought I had the best set, but I was like, all right, second I move on, whatever. Second round, I kill, I do well. And I'm like, okay, I'm in the championship. It's like, I don't know, eight comics. And I'm like, I gotta, all right, this is big, this should be good. I kill, I have a really good set in the finals, new. I'm scum like I don't know if I even have 30 minutes at this point

whatever I had to do but That was good, you know, but I Win the thing and I at the time member like man a couple other comics had really good sets like Irish of Fear was in it He had a really good set. Tom Simmons, I think maybe had the set of the night, but they gave it to me and I was in my head. I was like, I don't know if I deserve this,

but I'll fucking take it. And they set me up to their credit. They would like, if a club didn't book me, they were like, you gotta book them. And man, some of the clubs, like, I was not a headliner yet, so I was not doing great. But I was young enough that I think the audience thought it was kind of funny, even if I wasn't killer.

Like they were like, maybe they were a little older and they're like, well, I have a kid his age and it's like, and he's trying and he's trying and he's and he had, I had something. I had some stuff. But I remember I did this club in Kirkland, Washington and called laughs and I had like 43 minutes. I was like, I can do like 43 minutes. I wrote out the set like, God do 45, but I can bullshit my way to 45. And then I do 45. I probably get like 48. Let's try some topical stuff. Start trying to write like new stuff. Some crowd interaction. Do a little crowd work. Yeah, that's where it started kind of. But I remember the first night the owner was like,

what the fuck was that? And I was like, I did well. And my head, I'm like, what do you mean? And he was like, we're a family club. And I was like, dude, in my head, I can't remove any jokes. I need all these jokes to get by. But I was like, which joke was it?

And he was just like, we're a family club. And I was like, I don't know what to do. I couldn't change the joke. So I just did the same set the whole weekend. And by the end, he was like, man, you really you struggle in the first night, but by the end of the weekend you really pulled it together. And I'm like, I came to the conclusion. I don't think this guy watched one set.

I think he was just pissed drunk in the back. Well, this is your audience. These are some of the subjective things that come with comedy. Your boss is like, ultimately the reason you win is because laughter has it's a meritocracy, right? You either get the laughs or you don't and you're good at getting the laughs. You have been for a long time. But when we talk about the struggle and you say, I was barely making a living, what does

that look like practically? Because you're chasing your dream and you think you're right and you don't want to doubt that this is the thing you want to do. But for how many years are you laboring under the weight of this might not actually be a career? I think you just have to be delusional honestly. I think you like if you ever think there's gonna be a plan B, you're kind of like if it's just like a regular, you know part-time thing you're doing fine, but like if you're doing like a full

thing then yeah, that could that could be hard for you. I think if you're not giving it, if you're not putting yourself in a position where I think it was someone who forgot what comedian was but like you can't have a real safety net so what was I did I had like three roommates and it was like what helped me was going on the road hard and just dude the worst was you're not gonna pay that much on the road at first I would sell would sell merch, and it was the corniest merch, and it was, I was embarrassed doing it, but I had a t-shirt, I had a joke about,

first time I met my biological father, like it was at a family style restaurant, and the joke was like, man, they should make up, they should make broken family style restaurants, where you walk in and you're like, where's the waiter? And you're like, I think he abandoned us. And you know, it was like a whole bit,

but I sold t-shirts that said, Sam's broken family style restaurant. And the best part was having to pitch that shirt at the end of a show when the joke didn't work. Right, when you get to it. Yes, you're selling merch for something that didn't land. And you didn't always hit. But I just liked that joke.

And I thought the shirt was funny. It's a funny shirt. And yeah, it was a Sam's Broken Family Style restaurant. It was a plate with a fish skeleton on it. And I remember being like, well, that joke didn't hit. But I've got t-shirts of that joke. And they'd be like, what? We didn't like the bit.

But yeah, that was... It's extra humiliating to not have them laugh at the joke and then to be your personality type, who's not gonna be enthusiastic about being there with flyers or necessarily selling the pieces of your soul that, can I sell you this shirt, because I need the money? And the joke didn't work, but I think it's a funny shirt, but now I have to sell it to you,

and this is a transaction that doesn't feel pure. It was tough and also it was like before the days of Venmo where people just drunk like, fuck it, I'll give you money. Like cash was more difficult. So what would change it? Like at that point, like right after I went laughing skull, I opened for Gary Goldman in Baltimore

at a club called Mugubis. And Gary's still my friend. I mean, Gary's a great guy, great comic. And he, I was a little nervous to open form because I thought he was like very much like, like, I mean, you say I'm meticulous. Gary is like, I've never seen a dude just like dissect stuff. He's like, you know, guys like Gary or Jim Gaffigan

can just stretch a bit that you, in my mind, would probably, for me, it'd be like a one minute bit. For them, it's like an you know, guys like Gary or Jim Gaffigan can just stretch a bit that you in my mind would probably, for me, it'd be like a one minute bit for them. It's like an eight minute bit and it's killing all the way. So I was pumped to work with him. And first show Gary was like, I'm wrecking you with the comedy seller. You're gonna be my first wreck. And I didn't know him.

So I was like, in my head, I was like, awesome. But I was also like, he's not gonna do it. But that's nice that even said that. But he did it like the next week. He was like, awesome. But I was also like, he's not gonna do it. But that's nice that even said that. But he did it like the next week. He was like, hey, can you be at the cellar? And I was terrified of that because even though he was doing well. That's a big leagues.

Yeah. And they knew I was scared. I still remember going in there and Keith Robinson who's like one of the funniest people. He's, I'm in there and Keith's just, I'm at the table with all the big shot sellers. It was like Norden, Jim Norden. Your odds. Your odds and scared and nervous. And I just know they can all see through bullshit and they're all snipers.

I mean, they're like the tough crowd guys. So the old school, like anyone who loves comedy knows Patrice and Quinn and Norton and that era. Savvy veterans who will see your insecurity sniff it and now are going to cut you with samurai swords. It's the old school of comedy. It's like everyone, it's funny when they say comics are soft. I'm like, I got the tail end of it. I didn't get it really.

I didn't know Patrice. He had passed on before I worked there. What do you mean comics are soft? I know better than to ever argue with a comic in these settings because a comic always is equipped with the tools to surgically eviscerate anyone he's arguing with or she's arguing with because they've been doing it since childhood. It's a weapon. Well, but we all are compared to that generation where like they would literally have to come

armed to the table. It was like the old West or something They were like, you know, but their guns on them put old dusty guns on the table It's like tombstone or something. They were crazy, but you know, I Remember sitting down a Keith was like look how scared he is And I'm nervous I'm like man, I'm yeah But I remember they were trying to put me out and after a guy who was like a guitar act and I was like, fuck, my audition's like midnight after a guitar act.

I don't want to, I don't want to go on after this guy not because I don't think he's funny, but it's just like a different energy. And I just, and now I don't care obviously, but when you're trying to audition you want everything to be perfect. For years you're caring about this. You have to. You must and or like this the struggle I'd love to know how you got good at failure because I've never figured out how to treat failure is learning I'd like to well, I think I

Don't know if you ever I mean I still get upset when I feel like I had a bad set We did a club a couple weeks ago You know last year was a theater tour for us was was really cool But then you know I'm back in clubs for a couple months to try to tighten stuff up before I had a bad set. We did a club a couple weeks ago. Last year was a theater tour for us. It was really cool, but then I'm back in clubs for a couple months to try to tighten stuff up before I tape a special. And we did a club a couple weeks ago where the acoustics were terrible. So it just felt like, it was kind of like,

felt like the Fontaine Blue where it was, I couldn't, I either had to speed up my delivery to the point that it was not natural and uncomfortable or I would have to start at zero every joke cause the laughs were just gone. So it was like, it just feels like I'm not giving them a good show. So I was mad every night after the show. I was pretty upset. It feels like I saw you at the fountain bloom what I'm telling you. You seem like, since I mentioned it to you a couple of times now, and you seem like you're almost ashamed that

that's the show I saw. You were great. Oh, I was pretty pissed. I was, thank you, but I mean, it was, I know people are spending their money to come to the shows, so, and they work hard for their money. So you want to give them a great night out. You like, I do take pride in that. And even when I'm trying to work stuff out,

you know, I try to cushion it enough. So it's not just a mess. I mean, sometimes if I'm in the city, I will throw too much new shit out there just because I need to get to it. But yeah, I was pretty upset with that venture, to be honest. I don't know if you're a perfectionist or not. Your word choices seem surgical as they are with many of the best comedians. When you name clubs the way you do, is there a funnier name than Mugubis or whatever it is that you just

said? Like, can I beat? If I tried to nominate something to beat the name of the club that would make you feel most insecure about it, you wouldn't believe this, but I performed at Mugubis. Yeah, geez, is there? You've got a bunch of them. Mugubis. I don of them. Magoobies. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if you've had these situations where you end up in, I would have assumed that you were noticing all of these clubs

and that it's one is crackers and that. Crackers was rough. That was a rough one. Yeah, I remember, oh, I had a fucking rough New Year's Day, I did it a couple of times, maybe three times. And it was, uh, it's funny. Some of these clubs, you're like, I will never be back. And then you're looking at your calendar for the next year. You're like, Hey, can you get me another weekend there?

I'm, uh, I'm kind of sparse here. You, uh, you must be someone who Roostertea feathers. That is a, that's a bad name too. I opened for Mark Marin there when I was like, it was like probably 2010 or something. And yeah, Marin is, I love Mark Marin, but he definitely finds, he can find your insecurity too in a way. I remember he gave me shit that weekend.

He was like, you don't mention that you're Jewish on stage. And I was like, I guess I didn't. And he goes, you're a hide the Jew. That's what he called me at the end of the weekend. And I was like, uh, I guess I didn't. And he goes, you're a hide the Jew. That's what he called me at the end of the weekend. And I was like, Oh no. And then I saw him years later and I'm cool with Mark now for sure. I like Mark a lot. But, uh, I saw him years later at the Montreal Comedy Festival and he's like, where do I know you're from? And I was like, I, uh, I opened for you and you, you call me a hide the Jew. And's like, oh, yeah, and I said well tonight

I opened on a Jew joke and he goes I got to you He can take credit. He got the credit for your success You're talking about the legends and you're talking about some people that you're clearly awed by you've been around long enough though that I assume that now young comics are coming to you and treating you with similar respect. How do you receive that? Like are you, because you don't, I don't know you, but you don't seem great at receiving

praise. It's hard to, it's hard to receive praise because, you know, it's, it's, yeah, I guess we're not, comics, a lot time. We aren't great at that. It's uh, I think we're Almost like trained to like Just like shoot like be like whatever, you know, it's as I said, I can't stand award shows. I can't stand like I mean Is there anything more horrible than picturing Sally Field? You like me. You really like me It's like that's every that's like the antithesis of everything we stand for is just like believing. I think the life of a comedian is just too mercurial to ever even let it in.

You just don't ever think it's going to go well long enough. But also, I guess the highest value of praise that you are willing to accept is laughter. It's like it's the cleanest one. It's the only form. It's not only your economy, it's the one that you're chasing all the time is laughter. That one's pure. You can't even help it. I made you laugh.

That's what I do. That's what I'm good at. That's a good point, but I think even laughter, if you're trying enough new jokes, that'll be gone in what 45 seconds? One joke will kill and the next won't. So I mean, I'll believe the joke is funny, but to believe, I'll never be like, I'm great. I'll be like, that's a good joke. That one's really hitting.

So it's easier for me if someone's like, man, I love that joke. I can take that a little more easily than I can. You're great. That's harder to take in. Well, let me ask you this because I am somebody, a lot of people look at what I get to do for a living and it's a great deal of fun. I struggle generally with joy because there's something about ambition that makes you keep sort of chasing and you can forget to just sort of sit gratefully.

And be a person. Just be joyful and I don't know how do you do with joy because your act doesn't have a lot of joy in it. Damn, that's a good question. Um, yeah. I don't know. My therapist said that to me once. I was like, man, I don't, it just doesn't, like I don't feel, even when I get like a

special or something or anything, they call you up and like, well, he's like, well, how do you react when the Knicks win? I'm like, that's a good point. I get pretty happy. I don't know. It's all misplaced. You know, I think with comedy, a lot of the time the stuff you get is cool, but a lot of the time like,

I'm just in it too much to see the big, like people are like, oh, you did that. That's so cool. I'm like, oh yeah, it is cool. But yeah, it's, you're just in it a lot. So when you get a special a lot of the time, you're like, you're not like, oh my God, I got a special.

You're like, yeah, motherfucker, I've been doing this. I've been working hard. So I don't, you find a healthy balance between you don't want like praise that feels maybe insincere or but you also don't want to be, you know you're competent and you look around and you're like, well, yeah, enough people have gotten this. I could do that, you know? I'm not sure that answers my question about how you do with joy though. Like, do you often, I would imagine it would be wildly moving to arrive at whatever you

viewed as the dream success, whether it's a theater or something. You're making, you're killing, roaring laughter all over the place. I would, that would seem from afar, I would want that, that seems joyous. You worked hard enough for it. I think for me, there's a difference between like joy and just being grateful.

And I'm very grateful. Like I do look at that like, dude, we were on a tour bus last year for the first time in my career. And like, we're going from city to city on a bus. We're waking up. We're going to the rec center. We're playing basketball. We're Getting breakfast having our coffee. We're writing jokes doing the show just repeat every sit every day Wake up in a new city for like 14 straight days and we did that a couple of times. I was like that. I love that That can be synonymous though gratitude if you're overwhelmed with gratitude

That's gonna feel like joy even if you don't express it yeah I so to answer your question yeah I I I guess I just was like wow this is pretty cool you know we're doing stuff like this is how I want to do it we're on a tour bus we're watching a film noir from the 40s I'm getting wine drunk and I was like this is you're with people you want to be with I'm with a circle who I love like I genuinely love these people so that's everything and I see like it's cool I was out with Adam Sandler for a circle of who I love. I genuinely love these people. So that's everything. And I see like, it's cool. I was out with Adam Sandler for a bunch of dates.

And I was like, well, he's doing what I'm doing, but just at a much higher level. Like it's a bigger production. It's, uh... But he does exactly what I do. He's like, let's play basketball. Let's go to this restaurant. I'm like, oh, this is what we do on the road. So it's cool to see that like,

well, you get to not grow up. It's got to feel like when you were, you had three roommates and you were coming up hungry. Like if you get to have so much success, you get to share it with your friends, you're traveling the world and you're doing exactly what you want. That should be joy.

Like that sounds like it. Well, that's the thing. I mean, you met Gary Veter, who's like one of my best friends. Since we started, we were open micers together. So I remember first time I met him was at a Taco a taco stand open mic and he cursed me out because I wasn't paying attention because you every comic breaks at some point You know if you're doing enough open mics

You just lose your temper and I wasn't even mad at it. I was like yeah, I get it Like I was so he saw me not paying attention looking at my notes And he goes this fucking assholes not paying attention and I looked up and I was like, oh yeah, sorry. Like I wasn't mad because I remember seeing him even then Gary had really funny jokes. He's very dry and it was a type of stuff that connected with me. Gary loves like airplane naked gun type of jokes and we make him constantly on the road. We love like those silly, you know,, stupid jokes. I saw him the next night and Gary goes, sorry I snapped it. I was like, totally get. Even then, I was like, totally

understand. Years later, we're still on the— like Mark Norman was my— we were open micers together. These are all— and we do a podcast now. He's one of my best friends. All these guys I knew from when we were kids you know, they're, I was very fortunate to be surrounded by driven people who were supportive. Like definitely when I get something, they were happy when they got something, I was happy. I think not all fields are like that. I think I was thinking-

Well, comedy is notoriously competitive, right? Like- It isn't, it isn't. I mean, I think, you know, I would think like some like acting's got to be more competitive because you're like, well, there's only one role and we're all vying for it. We're stand up, there's a lot of room and now we do each other's podcasts and we help each other and it is much easier. Back in the day, I think, yeah, you get bummed when they'd be like Comedy Central's doing

this many half hours and only these people. Yeah, sometimes people would feel on the outside looking in but I also think man in some ways we're in the best era of comedy ever because I was told I couldn't make a special and I was one of the early comics to be like I'm gonna put on YouTube and I remember at the time telling some pretty established comics I was doing that and they were like you're making a huge mistake and to this day was the best decision I ever made. That's an interesting vantage point because a lot of people are complaining

about the state of comedy or the lack of freedom. And you're saying, no, there's kind of more opportunity than there's ever been all over the place. You just got to be a really good comic. The lack of freedom, I don't know what they're talking about. Is it like what we can and can't say? I feel like a lot of the time the people who are complaining about like what we can and can't say it's like

It's like you said it. I think some people think freedom of speech Doesn't deserve criticism and like the fact that comics are under fire or getting criticized is actually a Point that people are taking it seriously as a form entertainment. I mean, that's what people to Tarantino, that's what people do to Spike Lee, right? So... An art, you might say, if you were the interviewer instead of the guy who doesn't want it to be called an art. Well, it's good for comedy. It is, look, comedians, we get annoyed when we're criticized, but I think you kind of just got to get it right. Look, it is what it is. When people are going to not like your comedy, we're protective over it.

It's our comedy, but it's not the worst thing that comedy specials are in Rod and Tomatoes now. You mentioned going into therapy. Do, can you share like what led you to that kind of introspection? To go to therapy? Yeah, to craving, understanding yourself better, which I swear by therapy to anybody who will listen just because if I can give somebody who's an expert on human behavior a toolbox

of my vulnerabilities and my insecurities so that they can then help me figure out how to forgive myself for being too hard on myself. I would like some help with that. I guess I was drinking a lot and I was just waking up a lot in the morning, just like, I fucking hate myself. I just felt that a lot. And my friend, Rachel Feinstein, who is a hilarious comic, she's like a sister to me. And she was like, you should see the therapist,

a lot of comedians see Alan and I did and he's great. He really helped with my life view. I was so much more depressed when I started seeing him and I don't think therapy is for everybody but for me it certainly was. It made me examine patterns in my life that I couldn't stop reliving that maybe were harmful to me. Same. Yeah. Are you in therapy now? Yeah. Yeah. I've been for a long time. You know, I had a trauma that sort of sent me there, but it doesn't matter how you get there to ask for help.

Why did you hate yourself? I don't know. I think just... I don't know. I just kept drinking, I think. I think when you're a young comic, you're like, well, I'm not gonna pay enough, so I'll just take advantage of the open bar, not realizing that this is bad for you, this stuff. But, uh... Yeah, that you're self-medicating because you don't know yourself well enough to know that you're self-medicating. Or why you're self-medicating, or...

Or it can just be fun. It can just be enjoyable be enjoyable and then you feel shitty and the more you feel shitty every morning because you've had too much to drink. It was a combo. I wasn't like... It's also a depressant. Alcohol is also a depressant. That was a big part of it. But yeah, I mean I was never like I think the brooding drunk. I think I'm a fun drinker. That's part of the problem. It's like I do enjoy alcohol, but now I enjoyed in a way that's much more like I I'll have two and I'll ch- you know, I'm much better about it. Uh, yeah, I think it was a bad cycle and you're, uh, as you said, we're like grown-up adults, so it's hard to-

Grown-up children, yeah. Little kids, little kids, little kids. No, you get to- I mean, you guys, what I love about the innocence of comedy is that like, you guys, when you mention Adam Sandler playing basketball at 50, you see him walking through New York with a jar of pickles. I'm like, that's not an adult. Like that is a guy who has not yet grown up and hasn't had to. And God bless him.

Like, if you can be happy living forever young and laughing, like, shit, that's great for everybody. That's great if you can be happy about it. Yeah, well You know we We can kind of get away with it And that's and I think sign for was one where we said comedians whatever however long you've been doing comedy That's your actual age So we're you know, that's funny and I think there's some truth to that like we just someone be like I've been doing it nine years to Jerry he's like you, you're a baby, you're a child. But yeah, we are children. So it's hard when someone's

like, well, it's Wednesday, you can, you can go ahead and drink. And you're like, oh, yeah, I guess I can. I don't have anything I have to do tomorrow. So yeah, I think you just get in a bad cycle. But I mean, yeah, it's hard to break. For sure. What are the patterns? Because I've seen a lot of my family stuff come open in therapy that I had not. I just was totally blind to blind spots. Places where I was repeating the behavior of my parents and how they loved each other and I didn't even realize I was doing it.

Like what were some of the patterns that were shown to you that you were like, oh, that's illuminating? Well, a big one was choosing women who are emotionally unavailable. So I think, uh, I probably, in retrospect, I probably wasn't ready to be in a relationship either because, uh, with how hard I'm doing the road. So I'm like, I'll just pick a woman who's like always out of reach. I've like, I don't know what it was. I was like, I always loved like those film wars growing up with a woman would

like kind of turn on you or something. So like, oh, there's something romantic about a woman that's gonna fuck me over, I don't know. But like I'll pick a femme fatale. Like the Knicks, just like the Knicks. That's what you did with your sports allegiance. But just like, yeah, it was the Knicks

who now they're turning around, baby, I love it. But you know, oh, we are, don't give me that. We're crushing right now, 11 and two in our last 13. Since OG, we are don't give me that we're crushing right now 11 and 2 in our last 13 since OG were crushing but I love Yeah, I love the idea that like a lot of my favorite movies like double indemnity We're like the the the woman would like kind of dick you over and there's something kind of fun about that and and I just I don't think I had the bandwidth to handle anything real. So to me that was like a fun romantic But you're always getting hurt too, right? If they're not available like what are you doing? It's really self-destructive. Yeah, I probably didn't eat therapy

I just need to pay attention Just gonna pay better attention Paying a therapist how about I just pay attention? That's all I had to do You could have saved the same money you did on your manager if you'd just been, but that's the nature of blind spots, right? Like to me, one of the great things about therapy is just sort of like, oh, I do, really, I do that. And just having the light shown to you,

like it's sort of one of the points, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it was, and he was, he's just such a smart guy, Alan. Like I could bring up any reference and he would get it It'd be like a music reference a movie reference to like a history reference He'd be like he would just have like a great comment I'd be like oh this guy just knows everything and you gotta pick the right one right?

It's important. It's really important to have the right therapist like I wouldn't advise it for anybody You've got to have the one that you can connect with so that the intimacy's don't feel like you're giving them something that you don't want judged. That's true. I will also say therapists, like there are some great ones. Some of them are the craziest people I've ever met. Like I get assaulted by a therapist in Vermont. Like I broke a pint glass over my head. It turned out to be a therapist.

He was in a blackout. I have an ex of mine who's a therapist and she's like insane. I mean, not so many people like you're a therapist like your life is in shambles Some of them should have to show proof that their life is going okay. Yeah, this guy commit a felony on me I'm like you fucking attacked me He's not a therapist anymore, but they were like you want to come back to Vermont to testify. I'm like no therapist anymore, but they were like, do you want to come back to Vermont to testify? I'm like, no. You think I want to keep reliving this?

You discovered what about, now that you've gone through it, you go unavoid, excuse me, unavailable women. What have you learned about loving yourself better and finding love and what love is supposed to look like? And I'm saying this as someone, if this is invasive, I got to 50 years old before I had like my entire worldview turned upside down by just loving a woman in a way that forced me to examine some of the things that I thought were right that were not right. Yeah.

Well, look, it was relationships. It wasn't just relationships for me. It was also like I had issues, I unresolved issues with a biological father who's out of my life and I had anger too. I was trying to maybe see if I could handle a relationship with him in any way and I couldn't. I just like, I think it just didn't really work for me.

And I think there were obvious connections between him and the women I would choose. It was like, he was kind of a narcissist. He was kind of all about him. I should have picked up on that when he left. It was a pretty good hint. But- And with a note, right?

Just left with just a note. He left a note in a safety deposit box. Yeah, I mean, look, he had, in his defense, he had been through a lot as other wife had just passed from cancer he had a family look it life's complicated you get older and you and you but I but also like you also can only handle what you could handle and I have a great dad who raised me I love my dad so you know you have to work through things and look I was in a blended family as i said there's family dynamics that you don't pick up on and i just think like therapy also it like helps you forgive

other people it helps you forgive yourself and and also lets you realize like what do i need to confront in my life who do i need to have a talk with and i think uh the only problem is like i used to do a joke about this but when you date someone who's in therapy and you're both in therapy, it's like the fights take 90 hours. Like every argument's like, I hear you and I appreciate where you're coming from. I'm like, all right, Jesus Christ, it's brutal. So that's the hard part, but I do think there's definitely good will come out of it. It's not forever. I had a guy and my parents sent me to a therapist.

I went to Tulane for like a semester, literally during Katrina. And I know it's not a good decision in retrospect. I love New Orleans. It's such a cool city, but it's just not, I don't operate at the Southern speed. I'm a city kid. I need the constant stimulation

and they're just so chill in New Orleans. That's part of what makes it great. But it's just hard. I love to visit. I couldn't live there. But yeah, I saw a therapist there who was really funny, but he would like roast me. That was his style of therapy. And at one point he was like, I was telling him about my biological father and he goes, you and mommy against the world. I was like, what the fuck? The hell is this? This is not helping. And I sent my friend to him once. I was like, oh, you have all these problems. You should see this guy. And he was like, that guy's a fucking dickhead. And I was like, oh yeah, I guess he is. And you don't, I didn't, right. It's like when you're young and you don't know what a relationship is. I had never been in therapy. I didn't know what therapy was. I was like, yeah, I guess they

just roast you. What a mind fuck though, because I don't know how old you were when your biological father left, but what a mind fuck to realize that as a man who is straight, you are choosing women that are recreating the pattern of trying to find the relationship with your biological father. Like, that you're not... That the way love looks for you, it's not something with your mother. It's your doing something that's unhealthy for you. Trying to fuck my dad. Yeah.

A literal mind fuck. Well, you know what's crazy too is I think it's also like you go to therapy and they say all these things about you and you're like, oh my God. And then you realize there's like eight types of people. You're not that unique. I thought it was six like eight types of people. You're not that unique. I thought it was six. Six maybe, yeah. We're not that interesting.

Everyone's got shit. And everyone's got like an area they missed as a child, hopefully, you know, but you grow up and you're like, oh yeah, I just gotta fix this. It's almost, I look at therapy almost like maintenance. I'll go back every once in a while. I don't go every week anymore, but like, it is like maintenance. I need to like, all right, I gotta fix this, you know.

Are you of the agreement that a lot of people, a lot of comedians comedy comes from pain? It doesn't have to. I think we romanticize that. I think when, look, what are some of the most popular bits of all time, Richard Pryor lighting himself on fire free-basing. It's, he made that hilarious.

And that's cool, but it doesn't have to come from pain. I mean, as I just said, Naked Gun, an airplane, are two of the funniest movies ever. It's not like that came from a brooding writer, like, oh, fuck, this, no, Leslie Nielsen, he says this. You know, it's, no, I mean, Billy Madison is like the silliest. Like some of my Rodney, I mean, look, I think Rodney Dangerfield was a pretty unhappy guy, but like back to school is like a, it's such a fun movie.

Oh, but you have range though. You're not whoopee cushions. Like one of the reasons I admire your comedy so much is because you can, like there's no knowing when you're going to go from silly to smart and both of them are gonna be funny. Thanks. Yeah, I think, uh, I just don't think it had. I think people were mad, it's like, you have to be miserable to be a comedian.

I'm like, I don't, I don't think that's true. I think a lot of comedians happen to be, you know, coming from a dark place, but like, so does, how many people do you know that are? Well, you're like, oh, I didn't know that because they're just quiet, but comedians have a microphone. But then you find out a guy, you, I didn't know that because they're just quiet, but comedians have a microphone. But then you find out a guy, you don't know a guy is depressed. I think there was a quote in Dangerfield's book, one of his friends would always say, the only normal people are the ones you don't know very well.

And it's like, I think it was Joe Ansys who would always say that. But it's like, yeah, that's true. Some guy is maybe got a dark, he's got a darkness to him and you just don't know. But comedians, we talk about it. Our job is to talk about, I mean, not every comic is confessional and that's not their style but if that's your style, you're like, oh, that guy's fucked up. People love that Louis would talk about this almost like fucked up voice in his head and he'd be like, well, there's like a darkness here.

I think people connect it to that. Or same with like a guy voice in his head. And he'd be like, well, there's like a darkness here. I think people connected to that. Or same with like a guy like Bill Burr. I have a thousand questions because you must have so many pearls with these men and women that you're talking to who have such comedy wisdom that all of them are imparting on you. You must have a long list of just things you've learned from all of these comedy legends. We'll save that for the next time that I hope I get to talk to you. Oh, we'll definitely do it again.

Again, but I will leave you with this because one of the great disappointments in my professional life is that someone like you isn't hosting a sports comedy show, which you have done. You've done it. You did it for a couple of years. You love sports I don't understand why sports doesn't have more funny in it Why sports analysis sports content like if I gave you a Sports show and allowed you to talk sports with some people you like for 30 minutes You would do an amazing funny sports show just following your

curiosities. I thought about it. I did a podcast with Julian Edelman for a minute and I loved Julian. He's still my boy but you know we couldn't make season two work because we're both he's has to be in LA and I'm on the road too hard and yeah it's an idea I had once I couldn't do that. See I thought about doing like a live talk show thing where I'd have athlete guests on a lot because I think some of them are great. I think some of them take themselves pretty seriously. Like, you know, for every Blake Griffin, there's like a dude here like, could I fuck with James Harden?

You know? No, but the whole self seriousness of sports to me, I've always wanted a comedian to come in and puncture it. I was disappointed that that Jay Moore didn't work as a late-night show on ESPN because I'm like yeah that Like and it's hard to work within the confines of the corporation of Disney when you're Jay Moore Yeah, for anyone. Yeah, I mean you were there. I mean, it's like it's a tough gig But I feel like you can navigate it. You were at MSG for a while doing something like that, right? Oh man, they would give me insane guess. It was hilarious.

It would just be like my friends. They'd be like, we got a, I mean, now some of the comics on are famous, but I mean, I mean, yes, some episodes, I'd be like, today we have a, we've Pete Davidson and Action Bronson and people would be like, my friends would be like, who? Why do you have a better lineup than Fallon tonight? You know what I mean? It's like, they'd get me crazy guess. Because, you know, everyone wants to be on good side with MSG. better lineup than Fallon tonight. You know what I mean? It's like, they give me crazy guess.

Cause you know, everyone wants to be on good side with MSG. And- But it couldn't be funny because of the self seriousness of like you need, you need other comedians. You need the athlete or whomever to be in on the joke. You need it to be a panel. You know what? I think Simmons had the right idea with his HBO show.

It just didn't really work. But I think the idea of a panel is what you need to do because you need a funny guy. Like even Joe Buck's show that I know had like got you know, Artie Lang destroyed it right out of the box. And Joe Buck is among among our peers who do this. Joe Buck is legitimately funny, confident in a way that he could pull that off and it got destroyed in five minutes and ruin it for everybody else because it got because already Lang came and pissed on it. And I love already, but yeah, he definitely destroyed that. He destroyed it.

But I think you need that format where you need funny people to like, you need the athletes for their insight and for their stories. And then you need, because we would do that show sometimes with Julian and like the episode was very athlete dependent as I'm sure you know like you get sometimes you're like man Gilbert Rinas will say anything he'll be a great guest but then you'll get someone who's just a little bit more stiff. I wouldn't have thought of pairing you with Edelman you might have brought him out more than most but I didn't see you know I didn't see Edelman's wacky personality he's got plenty

more than Wes Welker but I'm, like, if I would have paired you with somebody, that wouldn't have been, you know, one of my first choices. I love Julian. Yeah, I mean, he's a fun guy. And he's, I mean, dude, I remember like, he's a dude I could throw back beers with and stuff and just like, you know, really, yeah,

I feel like we connected. I think he's a great guy. Well, that's what's important. I'm not saying he's not a great guy. I'm just talking about whatever you're gonna be doing as a comedy duo, whatever it is you're gonna be doing as a sports show, that you need somebody who gets all the rhythms of how you make your comedy. Yeah, I think it would have worked if we had a little more time.

But yeah, sports talk shows are tough. I just think like, shit man, if Norm MacDonald can't make it work, right? I mean, I thought his show was funny. I it was I just I Think it's very I think you're also cutting out now. It's not like sports. It's a sports show So you're like, all right I'm losing a lot of women out of the gate with this concept, right as opposed to like I'm working on making a sitcom right now So I hope I can I can sell that I'm working on pitching a sitcom right now. So I hope I can, I can sell that. I'm working on pitching that in a couple months, but I think, I think that'll be a good show.

What do you have to promote as we get you out of here? Because I will tell the audience again, his new Netflix special, Same Time Tomorrow, is currently streaming, excuse me, not, not screaming. It's usually not screaming, but you can see him all over the world and he's touring. What else do I need to tell the people about where it is they can find you? I got a podcast with Mark Norman. We might be drunk. We get, we get fun guests on there.

We, I'm on the road constantly. I think coming up, I got like Omaha, Dallas, Irvine, Oklahoma City, Salt City. The website's name? The website? The website? The website? The website? The website? The website? The website? The website? The website? Sight's name. The win. Samarill.com slash shows and early March from tape at a new special with the Wilbur

and Boston and that'll be, I think on Amazon that one. So that'll be a fun one. Some pumps. Thank you for coming through. I'm pumped that you did and I hope that we can have you on again. Say hi when you come by. Yes, I'm going to come by to see you. This next time we'll do it with more laughter.

I know I came up. know I sound like I fucking bomb No, no, no, no, you did not bomb But I started in exactly the way that I'm guessing that you would want every interview to not ever start which is here He is he's hilarious. He's gonna be so funny That's an amateur mistake by me. I appreciate that you carried me the rest of the way. That was fun. Yeah, that was great. Thank you, sir. Thank you.