The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Stan Van Gundy

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

You won't find a more honest and respected presence in the NBA than TNT's Stan Van Gundy. While the bond between brothers runs deep... the competition between Stan and Jeff Van Gundy runs even deeper. Stan gets into his relationship with his younger brother, what it was like facing off against each other as coaches time and time again, the depth of the love they share as they've gotten older, and what he expects next for Jeff in the NBA. Stan and Dan also talk about how they became friends, seeing greatness in the Miami Heat's Erik Spoelstra early on, and the often toxic criticism that surrounds sports today. Then, Stan opens up with Dan about learning to balance asking for support from family and friends and self-reliance as he processes his grief over the loss of his wife, Kim. It's hard not to love Stan Van Gundy. Watch the 2024 NBA Western Conference Finals between the Dallas Mavericks and Minnesota Timberwolves on TNT. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to South Beach Sessions. The smile on my face. You haven't seen it that much, but we've got an old friend in the house. He's old and a friend, and he's also an old friend. And I want to make him comfortable because these things can get intimate and vulnerable. So I have a gift here. I've been thinking for weeks. How am I going to do this? I haven't seen him in a while. I haven't talked to him in person in a while. So here you go. I thought for a long time about how to do this correctly. You really thought hard about this. Are you still opening the mornings with one of those? I do. Every morning, yeah.

I've tried not to take them too far into the afternoon, but since I'll be up late tonight, I can have one. Okay. And you have not yet quenched that habit. You haven't killed that habit, even though you should be drinking water. You're taking care of yourself. You look a lot healthier, as you always do, the moment that you get off of the sidelines. I have had people say that, there is a lot less stress, but to be honest with the weight loss it was all medication and it was all the having gotten so bad with my blood sugar

that I was a type 2 diabetic, I got put on Mungiro and that's all I've done. I haven't changed my diet a whole lot I you know or anything else so it's not really that I've done anything I have talked to you a great deal over the years about something that perpetually confounds me Which is you always returning to basketball when it seems to make you a good deal more miserable When you are a balanced person who loves his family and yet there's something about the misery and the coaching that is forever calling you. Have you sort of reconciled now that you're approaching

retirement, government retirement age, even though you're gonna keep working for a while I I imagine have you Reconciled the fact that you've devoted your life to a thing that consumes you and is a per a forever pursuit But also had a lot of stuff in it that you didn't like so much. Yeah, I actually really regret that I didn't Allow myself or didn't do what I needed to do to enjoy it more. I mean, you know, because there's a lot about it that's good and that's what draws me back all the time, the camaraderie of a team. And you know, I was just saying to Mike Ryan out here, you guys know what that feels like, the camaraderie of a team working toward a goal. I mean, there's nothing better than that.

And the challenge of competition, it's addictive. And I really wish that I would have enjoyed it more in the moment and made it more enjoyable for the people around me, foremost my family, but even the people within the organizations that I worked in, that I would have made it more enjoyable for everybody around. You're such a good learner though. Why couldn't you?

You know, that's a great question. I mean, maybe I'm not a great learner, but also... No, you are. You are a great learner. I just think in the moment, in the moments, I don't know, I just, I just couldn't enjoy it. And it's funny because I run into people all the time, you know, who I'll meet for the first time and, you know, will be talking to me and say, Oh, that must have been so exciting. That must have been so fun. And I'm thinking, damn, it should have been. Is it the pressurization of it all?

So many people relying on you. The margins for winning can be so small. You have so little control as the coach, even though you guys are control freaks, you have so little control when the ball is out there. You're watching like the rest of us, no matter how much you've prepared. And I don't know how much impact you think you can have on the results, but the coach on the other sideline also thinks he's having. So what you end up doing is dedicating your life to a pursuit that's rewarding, fulfilling, but this is an affliction for most coaches, what you're talking about here.

Yeah. What really got me, Dan, is I don't care how good a job you do, and I should have understood this happens, but there will always be things happen in the game where I would look and go, damn, I didn't have them prepared for that, or this was the wrong approach, and I put us behind the eight ball and so that would happen even within the game itself and then after the game you go back and you look at the film and

You can just line up the the mistakes you made and I'm talking about in your best game I'm talking about you get a 30 point win and you're looking and saying, we weren't ready for that. They could have taken advantage for that. We got lucky. They missed here. And so. In that pursuit of always trying to do things better, which I think is good, but to just be able to say what I really wish I could have just said, okay, win or lose, what could we have done better?

Let's approach that and then let's move on instead of it weighed me down the mistakes. I mean, affected the way I thought about myself and everything else. And if you're not thinking well of yourself, then you're not happy. I mean, that that's sort of the cycle that I went through. I wanna talk to you about joy, because it is something that I have struggled with in my life through a series of family patterns and embeddings that imprinted me

that once I got into marriage and later in life, I learned some things that I had to learn about making sure to slow down and try to find the gratitude in things that made me present, right? Because I can't tell you, even though I've heard that expression all my life about being present, I cannot tell you how much fear of the future or regret of the past are areas that plague people. And if you can just be in whatever moment you're in and summon a gratitude for that moment, that's what you're lamenting here that you are too, you,

you needed to get to the next thing, the next city, the next victory. And it just seems like they really does seem like it should have been more enjoyable. You would have never dreamed at any point in your life that the Van Gundy name would resonate throughout basketball the way it does. No, not at all. And the NBA was never something that I even thought about, you know, other than to watch it like a fan.

I mean, you know, we, we came up. We both were small college players. My dad was a small college coach. I thought that's where I would be, and I would have been perfectly happy being there and then through some lucky developments. You know, you get a chance to be at this level. And I do appreciate that. I am grateful for that now. But as you said, in the moment,

I didn't. In the moment, I regretted whatever mistakes I had made in the previous game and worried about what was coming up in the next game and what I needed to do. It was never about that moment. Other than, you know, my brother has said, which is a great line and it's really true. There's the best five minutes in life are after a great road win, you know, and he laughs and says his daughter said, you know, what about when we were born and he said, I said what I said, you know, now I don't agree with that to that extent.

But yeah, there are those brief moments after a great win where you feel good but I didn't do it for long enough not that you're going to take a week while other games are coming but take the night at least you know and have a you know have a beer with your wife or something and enjoy it and get back to work the next morning no I mean I was already on the mistakes of that game, even if we won. And what are we doing tomorrow to get ready for for the next team? And that's just I think most coaches are like that. I don't think I'm different than most guys. What do you view as sort of your happiest year and your unhappiest year in coaching? I would imagine getting to the finals with Orlando.

Yeah. You know what, though, as I look back, I actually know, my happiest year in coaching was 1983-84, coaching Castleton State College in 1984-85, two years there where coaching at Castleton was unbelievable. Good players, good teams, fabulous people who literally two weeks ago eight of them came down. Guys played for me 40 years ago and eight of them came down because you know they knew I'd been through some things and so they were going to spend an entire weekend with me. The weekend of the men's and women's final fours and stayed with me. That group was really close. In the NBA, and stayed with me, that group was really close. In the NBA, honestly, the most enjoyable year

as a head coach was my first year, my year here, 03, 04, we got off to an 0-7 start, we were 5-15. You know, and then to come all the way back and win 17 of our last 21 and make it to the second round of the playoffs. And that was a group where a lot of guys were either getting their first opportunity. Obviously it was Dwayne Wade's rookie year.

Ray Foralston was really getting his first opportunity. Damon Jones, you know, we had had the year before and had that great, you know, or we had, yeah, that year. And so guys were getting their first big opportunity to play, and it was just fun. I mean, it was, you know, nobody had any real expectations on us. It was also Udonis' rookie year,

Lamar Odom's first year and only year in Miami. I mean, it was just my most fun year in the NBA. People loved that team, 42 and 40, that team won a playoff series. I mean, it was great. It went seven games. Home team won every game. And I mean, Dwayne Wade's first ever playoff game,

he hits a game winner. You know, I mean, it was, there were just a lot of great memories. But again, and I loved the staff. I mean, you know, it was Eric and Bob McAdoo love the staff I mean you know it was Eric and Bob McAdoo Keith Askins you know those guys were were great and people I still stay in touch with like very very much and will always appreciate for the way they helped me through that that first year you know

there's no way I wouldn have even made it through, let alone had any success without those three guys. What do you regard as the worst of the years that you remember as like, man, that was a real suffering? I imagine the pressure in Detroit at some point when I was watching you from afar, because you had the whole organization on you, all the responsibility of that,

it seemed from afar like that was a lot, even though you improved the team and it hasn't been as good since you left. Yeah, listen, I mean, what got me there was when we got to that 2017-18 season, you know, coming down the stretch and trying to fight for a playoff spot and realizing in my own mind that probably what was on the line was the jobs of 50 people because I was the president and I had all these people and I've said I know I've said this to you I think what fans don't fully understand when they're screaming for the head of the coach

and the guy to be fired, and we're gonna have it come up at the end of these playoffs with a lot of NBA coaches, I don't expect them to worry about the head coach. Like, we're set, we make great money, it's not a problem. But in my case there there I had 50 people who Were gonna lose their jobs and a lot of those people are making 50 60 $70,000 you know their families right? Absolutely, you know their families and they've got young families and all of that

They're gonna be out the door, too And that's not fans responsibility. I just think when fans get so vicious about it, they don't have that perspective. And it really pisses me off with the media sometimes who are doing the coach on the hot seat bit and the whole thing. And I know I've said this to you too, but you know, back when there were so many media layoffs, and I'm not even talking as much people behind the mics, but back when the written part of like ESPN, you know, laid off a lot of writers and stuff, and you know, they expect us to all feel sorry for them, and I'm like, wait a minute, you're the guys who were, who want to spend half your career writing about how coaches should use their lose their jobs. Well, here you are

Well, here you are. So a little more sensitivity to you know, the guy in the video room Maybe I deserve to lose my job in Detroit the guy in the video room didn't he busted his ass He was in there. He was in there every damn day for 14 hours doing a great job And he's being punished for my decisions like let's tone down the you know excitement over people losing their jobs. You mentioned Spolstra could you see it early with him was it that obvious? It was and and I will you know I know that's hard for people to believe but I remember having been here only a couple of months and I remember saying been here only a couple of months.

And I remember saying to my wife at home and to my brother and father, who obviously are basketball people, like, this guy's great, you know, and I've only done that, you know, he was early in his career, obviously, right at the beginning. And I did that one other time. And it was with Sean Miller when I was at Wisconsin, and I was only months months on the job and I was like, whoa, this is a different level. And I think what amazed me is when I came here, I'd already been in college coaching for 14 years. So I was new to the NBA, but I wasn't new to coaching and to see somebody in their first job who had his intelligence, his knowledge of the game, his approach,

and players immediately trusted him. Like he would go work with them and he just had this air about him. The thing with Eric, and I think players still catch on to it with him, it's always about them and about making the team better. It's never about him. And so I think they are attracted to that right away. And then his competence, you know, he can go out there and teach you and help you get better.

Yeah, I saw all of that right away. And then just his demeanor. I mean, he's not like me. He's not with the ups and downs. He may be internally, but externally, he's not like me. He's not with the ups and downs. He may be internally, but externally, he's very even keel. And so yeah, now, if you had asked me at that time, this guy is going to be a Hall of Fame guy and go to six finals in 13 years and all of that. Do you see that? I mean, who the hell knows, but was he going to be a great coach? Yeah.

You mentioned his competence. I remember his confidence and being struck by the idea that he would say flatly in his first year, it is not my job for them to like me. It doesn't matter. Stop. Don't ask me questions about that. Don't care whether they like me.

That has nothing to do with my job. No, that's exactly right. And I think, you know, one of the things and we were, you know, we were both here together for a long time. And the one thing that has really stuck with me about player coach relationships, Pat Riley said when we were here and he would say it a lot is the player coach relationship is a business relationship that is designed to get a result. That's what it's about and you know, my brother talks all the time about if you want to know what a guy's how good a guy's relationship is

with his players watch him on the court because that's what matters it's not whether the guy likes you doesn't like you does he go out there and perform if he does the player coach relationships outstanding if he doesn't he may be saying God this guy's my favorite coach ever and he's playing like crap then the player coach relationship isn't working the personal relationship maybe but not the player coach relationship and I think a lot of people in the media get that wrong like they just want to go ask do you like a guy do you not like a guy and then you know the players in the locker room don't like him really well his team's winning all the time so something's working and Eric has understood that from the from the get-go and listen human nature we all want

everybody to like us I mean it's not like he doesn't care I think people when he makes a comment like that people think he doesn't care of people like him of course he cares he's just able to look past that and understand that's not what's important here in the business of me coaching the team who's more joyless about the coaching process you or your brother okay that's a hell of a question I don't know I would think that we're about the same. We were just so different Temperamentally, I mean I sort of wear my emotions on my sleeves Jeff's very you know composed and so But I would say we're pretty much the same

I really think if if somebody would give him another chance, I honestly do think that he would be different with all of that. I do. I think that he's a more intentional learner maybe in that regard. And I think he would he would be different. That's a cop out. You're a media member now. You got to take a stand. You can't have no, but I don't really know. I really don't know. Does he articulate the same sort of remorse about I wish I had enjoyed it more? Yes. Oh, absolutely. We talk about that all the time. Like from our background to get to where we were and to not have an appreciation for that. We do appreciate like we, we will talk among ourselves and I certainly have this feeling all

the time of even now even just sitting courtside broadcast in a game is like how in the hell did I get here like you know I was I was a non-descript small college player on coaching it smoke up the hell I'm coaching in the NBA the moment where I really remember it My first year as a head coach here our seventh game of the year and the reason I remember it was the seventh game is

He took us to 0 and 7 at the start of my career. We were in Houston and what I I at the start of my career. We were in Houston. And what I remember the moment of lining up for the national anthem and looking down and seeing him on the other end and thinking like you got to be kidding me. And I even at that point, even with the game coming up, I had to fight back the tears at that point of just thinking like this is amazing I mean I'd already had the tears when he first got named the head coach his first home game they beat the I think it was his first home game I know is his first home win they beat Jordans Bulls and the crowd in Madison

Square Garden was chanting his name and I was watching on TV and I got the tears then, but to be in the same game with him. Now I did think though, he knew I was struggling. I'm starting my career at Owen six. He could have given us one. He could have given us one. If he really, if he really gave a crap, sit a couple guys out, get me my first win and then go on about, I mean, he could have done that. He didn't.

So there are limits to his love for me. And I learned that at that moment you guys didn't talk I've read this before that the only time that you didn't talk is when you were an assistant coach with Miami and he was the head coach of the Knicks you went a period of time where the battles were so excruciating and the scars so deep and the competition so crazy, that is that the only time in your life where you've had an extended period where you did not speak? Yeah. And you know, you remember those series and especially the one where, you know, everything

happened with Alonso and well, even before we had the fight where they had guys suspended for games, the only time we beat them in that rivalry because they didn't have guys for, you know, for game seven and the whole thing. I mean, it was just, it was so fraught with emotion that it was just better because we're not going to see things the same way at that point. And to be honest, we still don't talk about really any of those games. The heat next stuff still hurt. We'll talk about it generally in terms of the respect we have for people on both sides. Like, you know, like when I saw Spreewell the other

day and I know how much he meant to Jeff and the whole thing. And then Jeff would obviously when Tim Hardaway was working for me, he'd see Tim all the time. I mean, there's great respect. And so we would talk about that, but never getting back into the specifics of games and the whole thing. Well, what's the story that you can tell me

through your eyes, you're watching this insanity where it keeps getting ratcheted higher and higher. And now you look on the court and your brother is on the court holding on to Alonzo morning's, uh, you know, the, the bottom half of his leg, because he's just trying to stop the fight and these are giant people and everyone's going crazy and Jamal Mashburn's on the court and he says it's those, uh, calves are so big that he's like, why is Jeff Van Gundy holding onto a horse's leg? It doesn't make any sense to me. Uh, through your eyes as you're walking through the court, you're those calves are so big that he's like, why is Jeff Van Gundy holding onto a horse's leg?

It doesn't make any sense to me. Through your eyes as you're watching the intensity of all that and an embarrassing moment for your brother and you love him, what did all of that look and feel like to you? Well, in the moment, to be quite honest, all I thought about is, shit, we're gonna lose Alonzo for the next game. That's seriously, you know, you're into

that competition so much that that's all I was thinking, we're gonna lose Alonzo. Dammit, we're gonna, I mean, this is, this is crazy. It was after, after the series ends and everything else. And then even now you'll see that replay and people think it's funny and they'll want to revisit it with me and it's excruciating for me. Like it's embarrassing for him and it's excruciating. And so I don't like it. I mean, because it was a bad moment for me and the team I was with and it was a bad moment for my brother the team I was with, and it was a bad moment for my brother.

There's not a positive in that. So that's just something I try to put out of my mind. It was just a bad memory. But you don't reach out to him or anything. You just, like, how long did you guys go without speaking? Until the series was over, that's it. You know, and then it's congratulations and move on. But we've never specifically spoken about that moment.

Like, I never specifically spoken about that moment. Like I never specifically said, really, you know, what were you thinking? I've never asked him, you know, how he processes that or anything. No, I just put it out. I mean, those were not good memories. I mean, especially not for me.

I mean, they were beating our, I mean, other than the one year where we caught him on the injuries, you know, they were just beating our ass every year. I mean, you know, and he would just come in and beat us. I mean, we're the number one seed, they're the number eight seed. They beat us. And, you know, so I'll be honest, I mean, I love my brother, but it's not fun for me

to look back on that. Even as an assistant coach, I mean, he was taking it to us. He was getting the best of us. I'd rather get on to other memories. I remember the first time I ever heard your gravelly voice. You were an assistant coach and you were an outspoken and opinionated assistant coach. And you were on WQAM with Joe Rose and I had just written something about somebody, Jamal Mashburn. I had just written that he got torched by somebody who, who ended up going like 12 for 28 or something and

you just excoriated me on the radio. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. It's ridiculous. The dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee. And I'm like who is this person and why are assistant coaches allowed to be so opinionated publicly? I thought Riley had a grip on some of this sort of stuff. But I liked you immediately. Like I liked immediately that there was somebody with the Miami Heat near a microphone and having a strong opinion about things.

That you would have that strong a voice, a voice that you've carried into adulthood and used for some very good causes. Well, I think one of the things, I've said this to people at the time, I honestly think that one of the reasons that you and I became friends and that I liked you is my experience with the media even today is,

the media is great at handing out criticism and they're the most sensitive people in the world if anybody criticizes them and you have never shied away from any of that like people I I've always been able to argue with you even criticize you and you're okay with that that gives me respect for people people to me like who can understand it goes both ways That's great. It's the way it should be the people that want to be one-sided like I said the the media people who Want to scream about all these coaches should be fired. But then when they get laid off, we're all supposed to throw a pity party from them.

No, screw you. Like it doesn't go that way. It's got to go both ways, you know, But you, you pass, when you, when you get passionate about injustices or inconsistencies or these kinds of hypocrisies like this is this is what I've enjoyed about you since the beginning is that you get fired up and you immediately ratchet it up to a place of this is not right and I need to say something. I don't know that I you know one thing I have come to grips with um that my wife really taught me over the last couple years of her life was that,

you know, I don't need to say something. Like, you don't need to comment on this. And you should stop and think, like, do I want to weigh in here? I generally, as you know, because I've said some things that have gotten me into some trouble, I don't take the time To think I just this is what I'm thinking and I'll say it and so guys like you like that But I can get myself into Some trouble with that so I don't need to say it and I do better if I at least stop to think

Is this something I should weigh in? I'm like she got me to get off of Twitter because as you know I was on there all the time and I was arguing with everybody and She said it's making you more and more unhappy and that that's as simply as she put it She said what do you think you're getting out of it? And I just stopped and I haven't been on I don't know a couple years Because that wasn't a platform that I needed. I too often don't think before I speak. This is a lament you've articulated a lot to me over the years.

I didn't realize that you had indeed learned it. Was that the- Well, I don't know that I've learned it. I did learn it, I've gotten better, but there's still times that,... Well, I don't know that I've learned it. I did learn it. I've gotten better, but there's still times that, you know, I'll just spout off, but I will, at least now. I probably won't do it two days in a row, at least, you know, now, because I'll catch myself and say, that's one to walk away from.

My brother catches me on stuff too. He's much more careful than you. He is much more careful. And there are ways you know what he has said to me even with the basketball stuff I do is there are ways to make your point without going too far and without being negative quick example you know we're doing this heat Celtic series and you know The big lament is for from Miami side and I get it Jimmy Butler's out He's their best player and they can't possibly win without him

Well over the three last three years, which is a pretty big Sample size and Jimmy's missed a lot of games the heat of one 58 percent of their games with Jimmy Butler one 58% of their games with Jimmy Butler and 56% of their games without Jimmy Butler and I said to my brother I said Just thinking if the guys that biggest star shouldn't there be a bigger difference and he said Maybe but you don't need to say that just put the fact this is it over the last three years they've won 58% and without him they've won 56% and you don't need to go

farther he said when you go farther and you draw the conclusion you're an asshole but when you put the facts out there it's just the facts that that is the fact the heat may not like him Jimmy may not like him but those are the facts. That is the facts. The Heat may not like him, Jimmy may not like him, but those are the facts. Oh, you've gotten very good at this though. I don't want anyone to dilute how opinionated you are. I don't know that I would say that you're better than your brother,

although I like your style a lot. My wife, who doesn't like sports, walked past the television the other day and said, is that Stan? And I was just made really happy by the fact that she heard your voice. You've gotten very good at this, and I'd argue that your barbed wire edge

is something that serves you, that all broadcasters are disliked your brother has his critics if you're against somebody's team or you say the wrong thing you're gonna be somebody who's gonna get criticism but I like your way of doing it yeah I don't think he's trying to change me on that it's just I don't need to run down a player I don't need to run down Jimmy Butler like it's a surprising fact is what it is and I think his point is the fact enough is enough right there like yeah no you can have opinions like you know hey I think this guy hurts his team because he

doesn't run back on defense enough or I don't think this guy puts in the defensive effort which in the past not not lately because he's changed but in the past I've made the point doing Luca Donchich's games that I think this is guys the best offensive player I've ever seen in the NBA But part of the reason his team doesn't win is he doesn't put enough into it that that's an opinion That's fine, but there's times where you're just, you can go over the edge to where you're just running somebody down in sort of an unfair way. And you don't really know, like I haven't gone into any deep analysis of why there isn't a big gap between Jimmy Butler playing and Jimmy Butler not playing

for the Heat. I mean, maybe the schedule's been dead. I mean, I haven't done that and until I do I shouldn't jump to that conclusion, but I certainly should point out, wow, like there's only a 2% difference in winning percentage when he plays and doesn't play. Like, you know, you look at Joel and Bede and they basically are the best team in the NBA this year when he plays and They are Brooklyn or Charlotte when he doesn't play okay that Wow, that's what you'd expect and Jimmy Butler certainly a great player I'm not trying to say he's not he is and so

You'd expect there would be a big difference. So what does it say? Well, it says a lot of things. It may say something about Jimmy, but it certainly speaks some very positive things about the other Miami Heat players, about Eric Spolstra, about their roster, their toughness, their approach. So there's a lot of things it says.

And to just use it to try to run down another guy, that wouldn't be good. Your brother was let go by ESPN he was very classy about it, quiet I don't think he had anything to say about it, understands that it's a business but I understood at ESPN that it was a business too and it didn't make it hurt less when I was caught off guard by that. What do you say to him in that spot when? He leaves ESPN. Do you have anything to? Give him solace. Well, I don't know that I could give him solace and he was hurt by it I mean he'd worked for them for 17 years and

It wasn't even just the fact that they made made the move. I mean they they shit on him I mean the timing was awful. They waited until basically the NBA market in terms of coaching jobs, assistance jobs, front office jobs was already gone by to make the move. And then they, you know, delayed and delayed and delayed on a buyout that would free him to work for people. I mean after 17 years of BnN Arguably, I don't even know if it's arguably the best

You know game broadcast booth in the business in basketball and Being the kind of person he is the ESPN shit on him. And so all I could do was basically tell him that that's how I saw the situation, and I felt awful for him. Listen, you're in this business, and you're the same. I mean, you know this stuff happens in business.

We've all been through it. We've been fired and everything else. But there's ways to do it and ways not to do it. I mean, I've been fired four and everything else, but there's ways to do it in and ways not to do it I mean, I've been fired four times as a coach and You know the one in Detroit The guy handled it great I mean, you know and so I feel a lot differently about him than I do about the other three and I thought ESPN was absolutely

miserable to him after what he had given them for 17 years. I'm thinking he would advise you not to say any of that. Oh yeah, and he would be upset. When he finds out that I said it, he'll be upset and that's okay. I mean, it was like the other day, Jose Pineda,a who you know the Spanish broadcaster for the Miami Heat he said to Bryan Anderson before the game He said hey, you know when you guys say the heater under man, he said Eric doesn't want you to say that he doesn't like it if you say that and I'm thinking like

Okay, I love I love Eric, but You know, they're still under man, and we're still gonna say it So, you know like yeah, my brother wouldn't be happy if I was saying this but it's what happened And that's what I'm that's what I'm gonna say and and you know what? I don't think anybody who knows the situation would disagree with me at all. You guys don't have a whole lot of fights for brothers When did that stop? We had a lot of fights for brothers. When did that stop? We had a lot of them growing up.

I think certainly in our adult life, and probably even when we were younger, though we did have fights, we're far more apt, and I'm sure you were like this with your brother, too. We're far more apt to fight for each other than against each other. You know, it's... we'll have our arguments and disagreements and maybe one of the things that I appreciate most and it's hard to say because I appreciate everything about him but

Everybody in their lives needs people in my opinion who will tell you the truth and My brother will tell me the truth like whether it's with coaching or with my family or with anything else he's not afraid to say to me like hey, you know, I love you, but That was some bullshit right there, you know, and, and I appreciate that because you absolutely need that. And it gets harder and harder. You know, if somebody in your position now, Dan, you're running this big company or me, when you're a head coach, there's fewer and fewer people who feel comfortable to tell you the real deal, right? And maybe they're

depending on you for their jobs or whatever. And to have him to say, you know what? No, that's that's some bullshit, or even just simply you're wrong on that. You know, step back and think on that. You're wrong. And I greatly appreciate that with him so I would not say that we have any fights now but that doesn't mean that you know that he won't be honest with me and disagree on things and put me in my place. Do you have anything in the way of a memorable example that stays with you on something that just

that made you notice what you're articulating now, which is, oh, there is a person who will tell me like it is differently than others will. Well, I'll give you a simple one. You know, when you're coaching and you know, at the end of quarters, we still see it in NBA games games you do the coaches interview and sideline reporter comes over they ask you a couple questions should be pretty simple but you can think of examples of some NBA coaches who are maybe not sideline reporter friendly and the whole thing and I was never in my mind I was never that bad but I was certainly short and surly and wanting to get back in the huddle with my team and Lisa Salter was working for them. I believe it was Lisa Salter working for and for ESPN at the time and

They were having us in the playoffs and he said Look, you gotta you gotta change on those in the quarter interviews Like put yourself in her shoes like those aren't fun to do They know you guys don't want to do them. It's her job. Give her the respect of answering the questions and I changed for the rest of my career the way I did those did those interviews because Basically what he said was stop being an asshole. Like you've got to do them, she's got to be there, you know, treat her with some respect. And he could have just let that go.

It wasn't a big deal. But number one, he stepped up in defense of his teammate and he let me know. So to me, he did right by both of us. How would you articulate to someone who doesn't understand the way that you love your brother? Boy, I... you know, it's... Outside of my wife and my kids, it's the strongest... no offense to my parents, but it's the strongest relationship of my life. I mean, literally, I mean, the very few days that we have that we don't talk, I mean, we probably talk five or six times a week. And there is no question in my mind, never has been, that at a time of need he wouldn't drop literally everything in his life and be there for me.

I mean, there's just, I know that he would put his interests ahead of mine at any given moment. I know that there's... Behind yours. Behind yours. Not his interests ahead of mine at any given moment. I know that there's behind yours, behind yours, not, not, he would put his behind. Right. And I know that he always has my best interests at heart. Even if he's telling me something I don't want to hear he's not thinking of Himself I can't remember a moment in our adult lives where I Even had an inkling that he was even having any selfish thought in any dealing with me whatsoever There is not a relationship like that one.

I'm being reminded of it as you talk about it. I didn't quite realize that there was no other relationship that I had like the one with my brother. I wasn't, I hadn't given any consideration to the idea that it would ever be gone, you know? When you articulate it like that, I just didn't quite know how, uh, how much I'd miss it. Cause I never considered the idea that I was my little brother that I'd have to, you know, just floored me, caught me off guard, uh, has made, uh, it's just, I've had a lot of trouble with any amount of enthusiasm for anything

since and you had the team that you coached in 1983 and 84, you had, it was doing a lot of lifting when you said that they came to your aid in a time of need or they you said they were you were going through some stuff and I've sort of been there since you said it because because I've needed to lean on some people since August because of Because of the impact of that particular loss and and just not Also, no offense to my parents. There was just nothing like that in my life. Well, I think it's partially your parents are a different relationship. I mean, you love them, but they're still that authority figure relationship, you know, where you're on an equal level with your siblings and your experiences, you go through them relatively together.

You go through your lives together. What was the age separation? Four years, I was four years older. We were two and a half. And so you went through everything together. And I remember even when we were younger, like it was different even than a lot of my friends. Like I remember my friends' younger siblings,

but they weren't with us all the time. My brother was always with us. I was a senior in high school. He was a freshman. So we were three years apart in school. And he hung with us all the time when we'd go to other areas and play pickup games and things like that. My brother was with us.

I mean, I had a lot of really good friends growing up, my teammates mainly, and I still see them, which is fantastic. But my brother was always with us. So he was at every point in my life, other than my wife once I met her, he was my best friend. I mean, he's been with me every step, every thing that has happened, good or bad in my life. He's been the first or second person who I've called at every one, you know,

either to get support or to celebrate with or whatever. I have tried to support you during some of your difficulties. You can be a little bit evasive that way. I don't know How you've been? Coping with your own grief. I did want to talk to you about that privately or Publicly if you've learned anything or if you and forgive me I should tell the audience that you lost your wife Kim in August You and forgive me. I should tell the audience that you lost your wife Kim in August

Yeah in August and you know, she she took her own life then and and I'll I'll never There's I don't care how long it goes. I can't imagine that I'll ever get over that. I mean, it's I it just it was it was devastating and Like we'd been married for 35 years and had been together for close to 40 years. I mean, since I was 24 years old, I mean, I just sort of like what I said with my brother, but with her my entire adult life, I mean,

I trace everything, job changes, kids, everything. I mean, I was with her and she was by my side. And just what you said about your brother, I never, ever envisioned that I was going to live another day in my life without Kim, never, never envisioned that. And I knew she was, you you know going through a tough time but I still never envisioned that happening and even now it's been eight months and I struggle to come to grips with the fact that I'm never going to see her again. And I'm trying hard.

You can relate to this, I'm sure. I'm trying hard to stay connected. You know, I don't want to like, you know, my house is full of pictures of Kim. There's a montage of pictures above my bed that my kids did for me of Kim. And I'm trying hard to remember her voice and to remember her smile and all of those things. But more than anything, to live the, her values, because her values were better than mine. She taught me a lot.

And I wanna live her values and a life that she would be proud of and my kids at times over the last eight months, at times, you know, not not often, but I think genuinely from their point, I'll do something and they'll say, Mom would have really been proud of you for that one and That above anything else really Makes me feel good because my wife was an incredible person and the loss is huge But I have other people that I care about and as you said, I've had a lot of people support me and

I've got to try to go on but I just I Know I'll never get away from I'm doing as much therapy as I possibly can I don't think my guy can do 24 hours a day seven days a week with me He's got to have other people which you know, but I'm doing as much as I can. And I know that I'll get better. I have confidence in that over time, but I think the regret and I just don't think I'll ever get over it. I'm so sorry.

As I am with you, I mean the loss is just and the thing is Dan I I think and and i'm sure i'm not that much older than you The one thing I I was saying to my brother my brother lost his best friend in houston a week ago to cancer and They were really really close and he went back on friday to see the family. So it hasn't even been a week ago to cancer and they were really really close and he went back on Friday to see the family so it hasn't even been a week since he's gone back and you know I said to him I said unfortunately this is going to be a big part of our lives now you know I mean I'm I'm 64 I remember probably even ten years back my dad's 88 now and I remember him saying to me

Yeah, that's it's a funerals are a big part of our lives now You know and it's just Wow, and and I'm starting to feel like that and not just people dying But how many people I know some of my my ex-players from college and stuff living with cancer, and that's scary. I mean, we always have that in our life, but it's usually, I've had very little tragedy in my life until my wife died, very little.

I mean, I've just been blessed. But as you get older, man, it's just all around you and it becomes part of your life. And it's one of the things I'm trying to deal with in therapy besides the loss of my wife. Like how do I deal with this? Like where's the...you brought up the word joy before. Where's the joy in life? Like how do you go on day to day?

How do you find stuff to do like I can function I don't know about you but I can get up and function every day I need I do what needs to be done I don't have that much I want to do right now and how do you have that when you just see in Tragedy and death and sickness all around you and I know that's gonna be Huge part of my life now Had you tried therapy before? Yeah. Yeah, we're a I've never been afraid of therapy, but I've never embraced it like this Never embraced it like this It's I don't know where I'd be without it,

to be quite honest. You know, I need somebody to be able to talk to and like I don't want to burden my family with it. You know, because look, you know this as well as I do, you're sad every day, but that's such a mask though. These people, these people want to love you, but again, they do. And they can love you, but you can only go so far with it. Right. Because you understand this. You're sad every single day. You wake up with a sickness in the morning, a great, so if that's what you're gonna talk to everybody

about all the time. Oh no, I can't do that. That's what I'm saying. If somebody's gonna say, how are you? And it's, well, I'm not doing good all the time. Man, I mean, I don't wanna bring everybody else down. And even with my kids, I don't know where they are every single day.

So it's not like I'll never tell people something. Oh, but I can imagine you putting on a brave face for your kids, because you gotta feel like, you gotta move on and be strong. I don't know that I put on a brave face. I never feel like I'm faking anything. I'll just try to tap into other parts of me. So I'll never try to act like I'm happier than I am. But when

I see my kids or when I talk to my kids, that does make me happy. So I want to tap into that. Occasionally, I'll say to them, you know, hey, yeah, I've really been been having it rough lately. You know, for for some reason, in February, the six month anniversary of my wife's death hit me. I don't know why I'm not usually that much into the death, you know, the dates, but it hit me. You know, and I said that to my kids and I've had people willing to help me. I don't feel like I'm hiding anything,

but at the same time, like, if you want people to be there for you, this is the way I feel anyway, and support you. You don't want to make that support be the most miserable damn thing in their life. You know what I'm saying? Like I had these players come down, which is one of the kindest acts For guys that I coached 40 years ago to spend the weekend for me with me and they all ask and very genuinely How are you doing? Well, if I'm gonna sit there and you know burden them the whole weekend. Well hell I mean, I don't want it to be like that now. I didn't lie to him I said like, you know, it's been rough I mean, but you guys coming down here makes it a lot better,

that type of thing. Rough though is not quite encompassing enough for what you specifically endured. It's realms beyond rough. But again, it's, you know, with my therapist, it's fine. And I can get in deep into that hurt and grief and regret and all of that. But I really just don't, I really don't wanna go to those depths with anybody else. I don't.

I don't think it would be good. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it would be good for my relationships. You know, like I... I don't think this is bad. And look, everybody's different. But what's keeping me going is mainly my kids, you know, and feeling a responsibility to them, wanting to help them through all of this, trying to take on some of the things that my wife did for them.

That's important to me. I don't consider that a burden or a job. That's what keeps me going. I don't want my, I don't want them to be caretakers of me. I don't want that. I don't see that as their role as kids. Even though they're grown, that's my role as a parent. And then my parents are in their 80s

They don't need to be burdened with that. There's enough of a burden Them well, I know they worry about me, you know and all of that. I want to be there for them and It's It's not me being selfless or anything else in In some ways, it's selfish. I need that. I need to take care of other people right now. My parents, Kim's parents, my kids. I need to take care of other people.

Without that, I don't know that I would find much purpose in getting up every day. You mentioned regret, and one of the stages of grief is obviously guilt. And I've told people, I've told the listeners and the viewers of this before, that in the horror that was visiting my brother's deathbed for a year, the thing that I was able to get that you can't get in the suddenness of what

you experienced because I think what you got is is the worst way to get that. I don't have a guilt yet. I don't want to be flipping about it and assume it's never coming but I have not yet had guilt because I was able to show up every day and say all the things and there was warning even though what I was watching still seemed inconceivable as I was in it there was warning of hey that the time is short here's the most overt way we can show it to you say the things that you need to say and so I can't imagine and I don't know any of the details, you and I have not talked about any of this, but I can't imagine if that was a falling out of

the sky surprise to you. The finality of that from one second to the next, I just can't imagine how, how one has the tools for something like that to avoid guilt and regret about, about the things that you want to say now that you can't? Well, I don't know either, to be quite honest. I mean, because I don't have those tools to be able to do it. The way I looked at it is I was blessed with an unbelievable woman and a great family and my responsibility in this life, my primary

responsibility was and is to this day, but was to take care of those five possible. And my wife reached a point of despair and hopelessness and whatever else where her life and her life with me was not worth living anymore. And my responsibility was to take care of her and to give her a great life. And I failed in that. And come on, no, no, but I and I know, like, listen, my therapist will tell me no, it was mental illness. And it was this. And, and you you understand all this, too. You're

a very smart guy like on an intellectual level. I get that I get that he's right. But what I'm saying to you is not that I'm correct in my feeling but that's my feeling and I there's a difference between my head knowing that this was a true illness going on with her that that's different than what my gut tells me every single day so I can be on a zoom call with my therapist and know what he's telling me is right and an hour later it doesn't feel that way. That's what I can't reconcile is the feeling. So he says over time, that will get better and I will be able to come to grips with the reality of what happened and that there wasn't anything more I could have done but I

don't know that I'll ever feel that way that's all I'm saying I'm not I'm not trying to say that I'm right and it was on me but in my gut that's the way it feels. That's the heaviness that I feel on top of just wanting to share my life with her. Like, and I know you feel that with your brother, like, and it's, it's, it's not even just big events. It's mundane things. I mean, I remember home. It's just coming home. Yes. I was at the NCAA tournament. We're working the NCAA tournament in Connecticut. UConn beats Iowa State in the Elite Eight to go to the Final Four. We're coming back to the hotel. I'm with Kevin Harlan and Dan Bonner. And then our producer, Ken Mack, and our director, Mike Arnold, those guys wanted to get everybody together. We had dinner and you know, know whatever watch some of the late games that night because we had an early one and the whole thing so

we're coming up the elevator and Kevin Harlan just really innocently said yeah I'm just gonna go up and change and call my wife and then I'll come down and I went back in my room and cried like and god I hope Kevin doesn't hear this. He'll feel bad about it because he's that nice a guy and that sensitive a guy. But I just, because I couldn't call my wife and just say, hey, we're done. We're going to go down and have dinner.

There was nothing momentous. It wasn't like a big deal. It wasn't like, wow, this is great. I want to share it with her. This is awful. I need support. It wasn't that. It was just he was going to do what he's probably done after every game in his life is I'm going to go back and call my wife and then I'll go have some dinner. And I missed that. I wanted to be able to call my wife and say, hey, we're done for the day. I'm gonna go have dinner, and I'll see you tomorrow You're being an asshole to yourself though. You're not being

Gentle or kind to yourself when you frame it as her life with me And I failed when you fail when you say that she ended her life with me And I failed you're you're making yourself there me and I failed you're making yourself there you're intellectually attaching a culpability to that verbally that you... But I don't think that that's not really true though Dan. I think what I'm trying to tell you is that actually intellectually I understand that that's not the case. I understand that it's the mental illness I do. What

all I'm trying to tell you is when I wake up in the morning when I go to bed at night my feeling is that. So that's a different thing. I'm not attaching an intellectual culpability to it. It's it's an emotional thing that no matter how much I know, it just doesn't feel that way. It feels like I let her down and in the process let my kids down and even let myself down. And it's the feeling. I'm not saying that's the way it is. I'm not saying even that I believe,

because belief's an intellectual thing. I'm not even saying that I believe that's the way it is. I'm saying it feels like the way it is. I've always sort of prided myself, erroneously I would say, but proudly on being head over heart, thinking that there's not anything that can't be intellectualized and what you're articulating is absolutely one

of those things that you, you could go to your therapist, you can go and ask for help and for tools and they will tell you time. And you're more optimistic than me when you say, well, I know I will feel better because I'm like, will I? When, like, when, when, when does that start happening? I can't say that I know. I'm trying to go with confidence and I'm trusting a mental health professional who's been through

it many times. I don't think any other time in my life. Have I better understood? the difference between The intellectual and the emotional and the intellectual sort of keeps me going right now to sort of know what the facts of the situation are because emotionally I to sort of know what the facts of the situation are because emotionally, I can't get there. You trust your head too, right? Your head gives you the illusion, gives one the illusion of control.

No, that's exactly right. And probably to a fault, I have always trusted, as you said, I'm with you, I've always trusted the rational, the logical over the emotional. What a terrible thing to learn though, that you can't override it, that like, wait a minute. My wife tried to teach me that for years and years and years and years that, you know,

and I think one of the big problems I had even in, you know, my relationship with her is she would say to me at times, you know, tell me how she felt. And I would come back to her with a very rational, you know, I'd give her the facts of the situation and I would give her the solution to everything and she would always say to me, you just don't get it. I'm telling you how I feel. Well, and I hate, this is a big regret of mine now. I get it now. I get it. I get the difference now. I do. I get it.

I think I just tried to do it with you a second ago by telling you, by trying to fix you being mean to yourself or not being able to harness this feeling that forces regret on you or makes you bad to yourself because you're just sort of overwhelmed by something that doesn't have a precedent, right? Cause I had been blessedly free of grief and in some ways had, I mean, I don't want to even verbalize it. Wasn't preparing for my parents, but they're in there, you know, they're approaching 80. And so somewhere in my head, I'm not being a fool about that, but to get blindsided over here, to not have considered. I know. I mean, I remember, and it was less than a week. but to get blindsided over here, to not have considered. I know. I mean, I remember, and it was less than a week.

My wife and I had gone with our four kids and some of their friends, boyfriends, fiance, the whole thing. We had just gone to Switzerland and Italy and we had gotten back nine days before my wife took her life and we were sitting out by our pool less than a week before it happened and we're sitting out there on it you know it was warm obviously it's August but a

beautiful night and we're sitting out there and we were talking about how lucky we had been in our lives and with our family. So my wife, her parents divorced really young, but both her dad and her mom remarried and are in marriages of over 50 years. My parents have been together 65 years. My wife has three brothers and two sisters, all married with kids, no divorces, all the kids are healthy. My brother and his wife have been married 34 years, will be 35 in August. His two daughters are doing well. All of our parents, literally there's no problems. Now, we've had friends. I had two, three players now from my days back at Castleton

who passed away, two of them in their 20s years ago. And I had my closest friend when I was growing up, I was like in fifth grade who passed away. But I mean, I've just, I've had relatively nothing in the way of hardships, let alone tragedies. And we were talking about that no more than four or five days before the most unimaginable tragedy happened. So to say that I was unprepared, yeah,

I mean, there are people who grow up with this and It's incredible. I mean it's You know and you just you wonder I mean two of my daughters are in long-term relationships and One of them's father passed away. My daughter's fiance's father, who I'd gotten to know very well, was a great, great person, passed away two years ago in March. And my other daughter, her boyfriend of three years, his mom passed away only

three years, his mom passed away only three months before my wife passed away. So there's all this just going on with my kids and so they'd sort of been around it of everybody. I was probably the least prepared to deal with anything. You have articulated to me before that you handled everything, that you couldn't do any of the things that you were doing professionally. You wouldn't have had the ability to do much of anything. Who was Kim? Well, she was a lot of things, but the biggest thing I think is she was, and I think this is pretty much what came up at her service and talking to people. She was the kindest person that I've ever known. And, you know, my wife was the person that

she would go into a room or be at an event and what she was always looking for is who was off by themselves, who didn't have anybody to talk to and that's where she would go immediately. Like we would be at these events go immediately. Like we would be at these events and there would be you know all these people with big names and everything else like she didn't care about any of that. She'd be looking for the pro she's by herself I'm going to go talk to her. I had one of the wives of an analytics person that we had in Detroit wrote me a letter after she passed and she said, the thing that she remembered is

my wife got very active there in Detroit and they had a families group. It was mainly wives and girlfriends, but Reggie Jackson's brother, Kim talked him into coming and he was there, but she said You know, she's always nervous She said cuz we're like the low person on the totem pole, but from the very first time that group got together

She said it was amazing. She goes Kim treated me like the star players Girlfriend like we were all the same and in this together Kim did not care one wit about status it just didn't mean anything to her she actually thought it was funny that people would revere some people over others simply because of the money they had or the job they had or anything else made no sense to her all she cared about is are you a nice person do I like you do I not like you you know like that's all that. All she cared about is, are you a nice person? Do I like you? Do I not like you? You know, like that's all that's all she cared about. And she was just kind to everybody. We were another thing like on our probably the day we got back from Italy,

we're sitting out back as we did every evening, we'd sit out there and she asked me, what do you think your purpose is in life? And as you know, I can do Dan, I talked for like 10 minutes and I gave, I mean, it was beautiful. I wish you could have heard it. Great oratory about my purpose in life, you know, and using my platform.

It was very highfalutin and very self-impressed. And then I turned to her and I said, what do you think your purpose in life is? And she said, to be nice to everybody I see and make their day a little bit better. And I just sat there and I was like, shit. That's a lot better purpose than what I have, and it was summed up that quickly.

The other thing that came up with Kim, and I got this letter, Kim and I worked with a group of men in a college in prison program at Tomoka Correctional Institute in Daytona. And we had been doing that for, well, we started before the pandemic, so we had been doing that for well we started before the pandemic so we've been doing it quite a while but unfortunately some of those guys probably half our group is people are in for life and so some of those guys had been there that whole time and this one Earl, wrote me a letter afterwards and said that, and I'll never forget this line, you know, I mean, if you think about their prison outfits and he said, from the first day I met Kim, she never saw my blues.

She just saw me as a person. And that to me sums her up because she didn't see people as lower than her and she also didn't see people as above her. She wasn't intimidated by anybody because she just never... that wasn't what was important to her at all, you know, and so she treated everybody well and treated everybody the same. And man, I mean, she was, I still have people in Detroit where she really

started to be able to have some control because of my position and do things in a team atmosphere that she thought were important in the summer. Like once every three weeks, we lived on a lake and she would just put out a blanket invitation to everybody on our staff, like, come bring the kids. People would come all day, they'd be out on jet skis, paddle boards, hanging out. And I remember we're hanging out one day and it's with my assistant coaches and our general manager and the whole thing. And after a while I realized I haven't seen Kim in a while and she's over playing on a little beach area of the little girl of

You know one of our scouts who was there, you know, just helping them out so they could go grab something to eat I mean that was her all the way I mean she was she was the best and we had that signs made up for my kids and I at Christmas, because she had this saying she would say to me all the time, because I'm an argumentative person.

I always wanted to bake the issues and everything. And I think she came up with the saying on her own, because of me. But then she would use it for everybody. It's more important to be kind than to be right. And she would say it to me, God damn it, at least once a week, we'd be in some argument or I'd be in an argument with somebody else and she would say, it's more important to be kind than to be right.

All the time. That's who she was. It's nice seeing you again, buddy. It's always nice seeing you. I appreciate you giving me this opportunity and to talk about this because I really, other than with my therapist, I haven't talked about this stuff. Plus to be with somebody who I like and who I know is going through the same thing. You know, situations might be a little bit different, but one of the things I've learned is don't try to calibrate people's grief and everything else.

You don't compare it, you just realize that we're going through it. It's rough when we lose the people that we love and we have to recalibrate our whole lives. I mean, we really do. Our whole life is different. I look at my kids and I'm like, man, I mean, my wife was the person they relied on. I mean, literally called her every day because, you know, they relied on her advice on very practical matters. She was the person they went to with emotional problems. Their whole life's changed now. They've got to find different people to

fill those voids and I can fill some of it but not anywhere near all of it. I'm assuming that you have even more of an appreciation though for your kids now because there's something about this that sort of alters you and makes you realize how precious and fragile these things are. that sort of alters you and makes you realize how precious and fragile these things are? Oh my gosh, I mean, it just, you know, I think about them every morning. I mean, I always stayed in close touch with them,

but I literally text them every morning just to tell them what's going on with my day, hope you have a good day. I let them know what times, you know, like they know I'm over here now, so that if they needed me, like, you're not gonna be able to reach me by phone right now, but you'll be able to reach me later.

That's why I do it. I mean, because I just, I know the void that they feel, and thank God they have each other, but it'll just never be the same for any of us. Like it won't be the same for you without your brother. I mean, these are just relationships that we don't have. My therapist does say to me all the time, and I don't know if you feel this or not,

but he says this to me all the time. There'll always be in your lives and you'll always love them. He said, it's like, if you, he tells me all the time. There'll always be in your lives and you'll always love them. He said, it's like if you, he tells me all the time, you know, you loved Kim and you guys would be sitting in a room when she went out, got up and went to the other room. You didn't stop loving her because you weren't there with her. This is going to be a longer period of time, but it's the same thing. You don't quit loving and caring about that person because they're not in the room with you anymore. And I try to keep that in mind as much as I can, but.

And the love's alive through the kids, through the relationship with the kids. And the love's alive when you just tell the stories of like three and four days before she was gone. You're remembering like these. Oh, and I see her in the kids. I do, I'll see them and I'll tell him man you're so much like your wife and my oldest daughter now is who never by the way did

a damn thing around the house when she lived with us never wouldn't even pick up her dirty clothes let alone anything else now she has her own house and she's like this unbelievable do-it-yourself person. I mean, she's, redos her whole bathroom on her own and does all these jobs. And that was, my wife was big on that. I would always say, oh, just hire somebody. And my wife's like, well, I wouldn't hire somebody. The joy I get in doing it,

I get no joy in doing anything. I get joy in having it done. But she did that. And so I see my daughter and I'll say, man, you're so much like your mom. And you know, so I still see her in them all the time. Has your therapist given you any anything that can help with blaming yourself? Is there anything? You know, I mean,

he tries to get me, in that case, to be more rational and to understand what the mental health professionals are telling me, him, and who also he was My wife and I did stuff with him. That's how I got the connection We did couples therapy with him. So he knew my wife and and also my wife's psychiatrist I talked to or texted with at the time and so to understand what the mental health professionals are telling me that He said Stan this is And so to understand what the mental health professionals are telling me that he said, Stan, this is mental illness is an illness,

just like cancer is an illness or anything else. Your wife died from an illness. And, you know, I do think that the more I do think that the more we can get to understand mental illness in that regard, I mean, as a society, it will help us in this because we sort of push it to the side like it's different than real, but it's chemical, it's in the brain. It's not the idea that it's just the way you think and things like that. It's not. I mean, yeah, some of it's controllable by therapy, but there's chemical, biological changes that affect the brain and the way people think. And we've got to understand that better. And getting me to just tap into that and understand it. Like I say,

it helps when I get off the phone. I understand it's, it's, but getting, making that transformation from my head to my gut is gonna be the challenge. I'm sorry that you're going through it, buddy. I've been wanting to hug you for a while. I love you. Thank you for always being a friend to me, to the show, to all of the people here, to our listeners. They have developed a relationship with you of admiration and respect. So thank you for being who you are around us, with us, and for us. Thank you, and thank you for your friendship. And I said to you before, you know, walking in,

I haven't been in these studios, and walking in and seeing this, and my admiration for you, and what you've done for so many other people where you could have relaxed, taken your money, either been in retirement or just worked for somebody else and made a good living, and I know you, and I know part of why you did this.

It wasn't a ego trip for you to have this company. You did this to help other people, the people who work for you in here, the people you've put on the air and put in podcasts. And I know you take great pride in that. And as a friend of yours, it's something that I really appreciate about you. You've developed those relationships because you care about the people around you,

me included. I mean, you know, I mean, you put me on the air the first year I was out of coaching and I think that got other people interested in me. Like you've, you've done that for people consistently when you could have made it a lot easier on yourself and just been about you and so I'll always appreciate that couldn't get the damn radio station to pay you had to write you the checks myself and then you refused to take them from me and so I had to write them to the radio station so that the radio station would pay you because they didn't want to pay you and now look at you at the top of the industry kicking

ass because you really are great at it Stan. It is a pleasure. I don't know that my wife can give a higher compliment than sort of like being delighted. She doesn't care about sports like could not possibly care any less. So when she hears your voice and says is that Stan I'm not sure she could do it for any other broadcaster. Maybe Boog Shambi but but I'm not totally sure. Well, Boog's way ahead of me, both as a person and a broadcaster. We both know that. But yeah, it's fun for me. Especially like now, like doing these heat games lately is, I'll get texts from wives of coaches and staff members with the Heat just saying, and I know they're not huge fans,

they care because it's their husbands jobs, and they'll just, oh, it's great hearing you on the air and the whole thing, that's fun. And I hope to run into some wives and families tonight of guys that I coached here and worked with and everything else. It seems more enjoyable than the coaching job, not as fulfilling probably,

but it seems like it's more fun. There's a lot less stress. I remember my brother saying years ago, he said, hey look when a broadcast is over, so the only thing I think about is where we eat. You know, and so that part is is true. And you know what is fun? Like, you know this, Dan, if I, if I were coaching a game tonight, I wouldn't be here right now, I wouldn't be seeing you. Yeah. You would be impossible to talk to. Yes.

You would be, you would be unpleasant. Yes, I would be surly distracted or focused on something else. I mean, yesterday, Steve Clifford happened to be in town for something else. I spend the afternoon with him and my brother. I wouldn't be doing that if I was coaching. I want to see, if I can, Malik Allen and Karon Butler's families tonight at the game.

I've got to text both of them. I wouldn't do that if I were coaching. So there are some really, really good things besides the fact that i enjoy the job and love the people i'm working with lifestyle wise there are some things that are really good you know where i get to see some people and and reconnect with some people that i really care about and that my wife really cared about the nba playoffs are on tnt he is one of the best doing it. One of the best people doing it. One of the best broadcasters doing it.

I will thank you again. And I will remind you that I am happy that you are out of coaching because you were a miserable fuck when you were coaching. Um, thank you. It was just a misery. Like, do you understand you'd come into town? I'd want to see my friend. My friend's too miserable to see me. I do understand that.

And I do appreciate the fact that even in the coaching years, maybe not as much, but even in the coaching years, you're one of the few people in this world who could get me to laugh. You were not accessible during the coaching years. That's not true. You were one of the few guys I would come on the air with. Maybe not as much as you wanted,

but I would come on the air with you. You would. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. I sound like I lack gratitude. I will say to you that when you said looking across the court at your brother in Houston and seeing where it is you'd arrived, when you look at what it is that we've built here,

um, almost every day, I feel a measure of that. You talk about the pressure of 45 or 50 employees. We have 45 now in here in New York, and it is an overwhelming responsibility, but I will take your words of you have to enjoy it while you have it because you will miss it while you're gone. And when I do come in here, I feel some of what you articulated when you were looking at your brother and being like, how is this even possible? I give sports opinions. Like I used to, you know,

I was writing for the Miami Herald. How is any of this possible? I remember when you first went on the radio, like you hadn't done radio before. And I've said this to you too. The only thing I miss about your career is I miss you as a writer. I do. I miss me as a writer too. I mean I thought the one I mean I still have memories. You wrote years ago a Father's Day column about you pitching and the whole thing and like that has stuck with me.

Dan, how many years ago was that time ago I mean you were such a powerful writer and I I miss that about you but I mean you've evolved and this is all great and you've helped a lot more people than you ever could have in their profession by continuing to write but I remember I'll be one of the few people because as you started the show with I am old. And so I'm one of the few people who actually remembers you as a writer and I appreciate that part of your professional life. And in keeping putting a bow on it right because you say that you appreciated that I could take it as well as give it you You're not going to remember this,

probably, but I think one of the first conversations that we ever had, uh, where it was you being mad at me about something was, and I think the statute of limitations is up on this and so I can reveal it without it being anything, uh, too intimate, uh. You were mad at me because at the time I was writing, I went thinking about this, but it was when you had left the Heat coaching job and Pat Riley was about to be in the coaching job and I was writing, even Stan Van Gundy would say that Pat Riley is a better coach than Stan Van Gundy.

And you're like, don't put words in my mouth. Yeah, I didn't say that. And listen, the one thing is, and that goes to another thing, Dan, is the question I get all the time about coaching in the NBA, and this will go to that disagreement where I said, no, no, I don't think that, is people always ask me, how do you deal with the egos in the NBA? And I say this pretty truthfully, too, is, is well I just make sure mine's bigger than theirs. Like you don't get into these kind of businesses and you too if we really get down to it we

can be good people and have gratitude and care about other people but we've also got egos these are competitive businesses and you got to have an ego. And I certainly have one and exercised it more as a coach. And no, I'm not admitting somebody's better than me. But I just love that you could like stop writing that stuff. Like stop. Yeah, don't say that. I remember that. And I remember having that conversation. And it was before the decision had been made. You know it was there was that we had lost in the game 7 of

the Eastern Conference finals to Detroit painful and padded said some things about being more involved and he wanted to be a coaching president and then your paper not you but your paper was running actually polls on who should be the coach of the Heat next year, and you had written a column saying, you weren't saying that I shouldn't coach, but you were saying, yeah,

but even Stan Van Gundy would admit, and I said, hell no, hell no. I do love you, buddy, I will say it again. I love you too.