The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions - Stephen Jackson

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Stephen Jackson has never backed down from anything. Never held back from speaking his mind. And yet... this is the most open and raw he’s ever been. When the South Beach Sessions and All The Smoke worlds collide, you know it’s about to get real. Brought together by love and trust, Dan and Stephen leave no stone unturned. Stak reveals how growing up in Port Arthur - steeped in violence and loss - made him the man he'll always be, telling his journey to finding an outlet in basketball and creating a new life for himself. From highlights to the infamous… including Stephen’s truth about the Malice at the Palace and a breakdown of how the media distorted the narrative. Together, they open up about the unhealed wounds of losing the ones that inspire us the most, the profound impact of George Floyd’s death, and dealing with anger in order to accept the care and support of those who love them most. Watch new episodes of ALL THE SMOKE every Thursday from 6-7:30pm ET on DraftKings Network, available on the Roku Channel, Samsung TV Plus, Xumo Play, Google TV, and DKNetwork.DraftKings.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm very excited to do this one for a number of reasons Steven Jackson played 17 years in the NBA, unrelentingly authentic, an NBA champion. Want to show people that he is not one-dimensional. I don't know how much trauma he has from being viewed as somebody who is super loyal and gotten into a fight a long time ago, and maybe that's all you know about Steven Jackson. I'd like to show people another side of him. I'm thrilled that the partnership with Metal Arc Media and All The Smoke is something that is now up and running.

We are partners in business. So thank you for being here. These are my reasons for doing this. Why are you so eager to do this? We had dinner in New York 10 days ago or so and you were eager to do this, why? Yeah, first I'm honored for the partnership as well. I think it makes so much sense

because when we first met, we hit it off. But for me, I'm really, I was anxious to do this because I know it's beneficial for me, just as well as it'd be beneficial for you to talk about certain things. The moment we had before I episode of it even started with you, that's not a moment I've had with many people.

And I don't talk much about the things I go through in life, besides stuff that's been publicized, I was shown for the world, because I feel like that I'm built to get through anything. But we're saying that I am human. And so the fact that, just the little brief conversation we had, and I wasn't able to get through it without, you know, breaking down, you know, I felt comfortable talking to you and I felt it was time for me to get it out because it's holding me back.

It's probably holding me back from being a better husband, better friend, because I'm kind of numb right now to a lot of things because a lot of things has happened to me and You know, I don't I don't let it out. I just deal with it as a man should but a man also should let it out So I'm at this point now I will tell the people just for reference because I sat down with Steven and Matt Barnes And we did something for all the smoke where they were talking to me and right before we started Interviewing I told them that I was kind of broken because I had recently lost my brother and this triggered something in Steven that he wasn't quite able to talk about then. We'll get to that in a second

because I don't wanna derail this right off the top. I want people to know where you come from, your journey is fascinating. I admire you for a number of different reasons, the degree of difficulty of overcoming everything you had to overcome to just get to the NBA. 17 years spent in so many different environments in the NBA. Tim Duncan calling you the ultimate teammate because you fit with so many egos you've figured out a way

to get into that environment and be yourself all the time and be respected by others. And now you start a media career with, you know, after that part of your life is over. Let's go to Port Arthur, though. You've called that a hellhole before, but it's your home. What are the details? What are the landmarks about how you were imprinted very early in Port Arthur? I love my hometown. I think the reason why I'm here today is because what was instilled in me as a youngster. Survival and family and love. I think that's what I was taught the most. My city was, when I was growing up,

it was A-Sets, a low-income housing, two high schools, one grocery store. About 50 to 60,000 people, I grew up on the West Side and everybody's doing the same thing. Everybody knows everybody, everybody's selling drugs or trying to figure out a way out of Port Arthur without working at a refinery. Everybody has refinery jobs. Um, I grew up, uh, my mom and I, I'd be talking about it too much in my interviews. Uh, but, uh, we had to move from Houston to Port Arthur, Texas when I was five because of the living circumstances there, you know, that situation that a man was putting her in

with me and my older sister at the time. So I ended up to Port Arthur, where my family was, my grandmother, the aunt's uncles, everywhere. And that's when I started feeling loved, started seeing what real men's looks like with my uncles and my grandfather. You know, I understood the role of a man now instead of what was going on in Houston.

So, Port Arthur was just a place where the city protected me. I didn't just, wasn't a person out there just selling drugs, but I was with the drug dealers, 24-7. I was the guys who got it, was shooting people doing dry buys, but I was with them 24-7. And my city will tell you that all the guys that made it out as Ben and Jeanne came out, they all got love for me because I'm not the guy that was trying to be something I'm not. That was just my environment. I had no other place to go.

And I kind of gravitated to basketball. The only reason I gravitated to basketball was because my uncles played. If I would have never went to Port Arthur, I would have never gravitated to basketball. But when I got there, it was big in my city. It was big in my family with my uncles and my older cousins. So while going to their games on Friday nights

in the South, a lot of people might not notice. But Friday night, it's not just football. During basketball season, the whole city lines up for that one night for the just football. During basketball season the whole city lines up for that one night for the basketball game and growing up I wanted to be a part of that and I think when my city protected me with the police letting me go a million times you know knowing I play basketball knowing I should be going to jail with the rest of these guys and my city really protected me and showed

me that you know you have an opportunity to do something great you tried to mess it up 20 times but you, but we believe in you. And my city was a hellhole, but I owe everything to them because the man I am today, the standup guy I am, they being loyal to a fault is because the things that I was willing to do for my friends growing up, put myself in positions just to help them when it wasn't benefiting me at all. All that stuff, growing up, put myself in positions just to help them when it wasn't

benefiting me at all. All that stuff growing up in the church, being around my family, all that stuff made me the man I am today to make me loyal to a father, to make people look at me different ways because you don't understand the passion. You might not have been around somebody just as loyal as me that's willing to put his life on the line to say I love you and mean it. So it's a lot of things my city taught me, but I owe it to them for making me the man I am. Your mother, can you take me through the details of what you remember from childhood on how much it took for her to try and keep it together for you? You know, for you know, it's my mom worked, Or you know, it's, my mom worked, so it was probably months I didn't see my mom barely because we wake up at six in the morning to go to school, to go to my grandmother's house,

she's gotta wake up at five thirty to go to work. She gets off at six in the evening. By the time she gets home, so she's tired, so she picks us up neat, I get home from practice seven, eight, my mom's already asleep, getting's tired, so she picks up something neat. I get home from practice seven, eight. My mom was already sleeping for work, so I barely see my mom. And it was frustrating because I had to become a man on my own, you know, my sister,

my older sister was a big part because she stepped in when my mom was working. So my mom was working 12 years, I mean, 12 hour shifts and was only getting paid 30,000 a year. Like, I understand how hard that is now, you know, but then I just knew she was trying to make a better way for us and I made a lot of mistakes during that time to hurt her, to make it harder on her.

And just to try to help her, but I wasn't helping them. And it was hard, cause she was single. My dad stayed right around the corner and didn't help her. She never pressed child support on them. She never asked them for nothing. And I think her doing that taught us something. You know, it was teaching us a lot. Like, you know, don't depend on nobody.

Like do what you gotta do for yourself. And it made me and my little brother stronger. It made us, you know, figure it out and not make excuses and make love to the bad times, you know? We enjoyed the bad times. So my mom, you know, she was there for us. She did everything she could, but she missed out on a lot. And we missed out on a lot of showing her how much we love her

Because she was always working. I Can hear the guilt in your voice. Why have you not resolved that you were a kid? Do you you were kid in an environment that was pretty impossible without a lot of The supervision that a kid would need to have like why why have you not been able to resolve the the guilt there or forgive yourself there? Well because I haven't given my mom or the world yet I Think there's so much more I can do for And I think whenever I get to that point if I can before she passes, you know I'll probably get to that point by all us so much more I feel a debt toward my parents as well. They always tell me though, there is no debt here.

I brought you into the world, but I feel it. I feel like it's a debt I can never repay, but they're always reassuring me that there is no debt there. Yeah, but they can't tell you how you feel. You know, nobody can't tell you what to appreciate and how to appreciate it, right? And a lot of times, I talk about this all the time

when we talk about our podcast, right? I post a lot of people podcasted. I don't even know, never been on, don't even know nothing about their show, but I like some of their content. But I don't post it for them to post all the smoke and say, yeah, I post it because it's genuine. And that's how I really feel.

I don't care how nobody else feel. That's how I approach my life. I stand up for people. I'll stand up for somebody to obviously raise because that's how I feel and And I'm gonna all and I know people's rep people's opinion is not my reality and I live that way So I'm gonna continue to love hard I'm gonna continue to hold myself accountable and if I feel passionate about something or someone I Want them to know that I want them to know that. I want them to know that. I don't want a time to go by or somebody who I really care

about it and dedicate my time and my hard work to, to make sure they have a better life. I want them to know I'm doing this. Because a lot of people, you don't have a lot of people that come across in your life that actually genuinely living for you. You know what I mean? I'm just a lot of people that I'm living for

and I'm honest to say that. You say loyalty to a fault, I associate you with loyalty, obviously. Where did that start? What, you know, are there landmarks for you on how you became so fiercely loyal? Yeah, well, growing up in my neighborhood, you know, the whole, the first thing you talk,

one fight, we all fight, and we'll deal with the consequences later. That's the first education you get from being a lawyer to a fault. If you're friends outside, you're all outside playing basketball, one fight, even if he's wrong, you just fight. That's a lawyer to a fault. He could have been dead wrong, but we gonna talk about it

when we get home and deal with it later. So I was, I've been in situations and clubs where a fight breaks out. I don't know what happened, but my friends are fighting and I just jump into it. It's dumb as hell, but you know, that's, I'm with you, I'm with you. And that's why when the brawl happened, I didn't think twice. This is my brother. I'm with these guys more than I was with my family during the course of the year. So I didn't, that was the part that came out of me and

You know, I would rather be that then then be the guy that's not helping And I'm looking in the paper tomorrow one of my friends passed or something You know what I mean? What if I would have been the guy to jump in it? You know what I mean? Like I'm just not that person man And I'd rather be law to a father be law to the people who I genuinely love Stand up for the people I genuinely love and and look crazy to others But I know the person I'm standing up for know I love them and that mean more to me than anything I

Don't want to this early in what we're talking about bring back whatever I imagine is the post traumatic stress disorder of you went to help a mentally ill teammate Ron our test and I don't even mean that pejoratively like he has thought it he has talked later about how much work He's done in therapy and you went into those stands without considering the consequences It cost you about three million dollars because of that Can you take us through not the details of that experience, but the aftermath of it being in the middle of it being proudly loyal, but you've cost yourself so much money? It is a thing that haunts you still because I'm not sure that people associate

your name with anything other than that public moment of people who don't actually know you. Talk about the aftermath of that and what scars you still wear. I'm still dealing with it today. Somebody, while I'm walking the store to the store last night, like, Steve Jackson, why you walking the streets this night? I'm like, I'm just gonna get something to drink. Man, I remember you from the broad.

I've done so many great things outside of that. But at the same time, the people who I relate to, the people who grew up like me, they respect me for that. So I love that side of it because they grew up around people like me. They understand it. But the people that don't understand it, I'm still dealing with kind of the backlash of that because I was instantly portrayed as a thug, not a guy who was being the ultimate teammate, not a guy that just came from winning the championship with the Spurs and was told many a times to go in there and protect Tim Duncan and David Robinson.

It just never spilled out to the stands on the guy that I had to go in there and check didn't actually want to fight. So I've been that teammate without somebody telling me to go stand up for my guys and Just just people labeling me for so long We couldn't even speak up on it Dan and so we came out with the Netflix the Netflix documentary about it and I Was just always down first team common sense if you look at that We shouldn't have been fine We shouldn't have been been wrong. If I go to a club right now dad

and throw a beer in somebody's face, I'm going to jail. That's assault. That's assault in any state, that's assault. And unless you are rich professional back athlete, when we were at work, we were netted club. We were in our place of business where we should have been protected. We wasn't protected at all.

And I honestly felt like this is my honor. I honestly felt like if the NBA and the commission had any type of common sense to start that documentary, they'll see how security was poor. We were trying to survive. If that fight happened today, where the arena is now, we probably wouldn't have made it out of there because it's in the heart of Detroit now where the arena is now, we probably wouldn't have made it out of there because it's in the heart of Detroit now where the arena is now. This was in I think Lincoln or something like that where we were playing you know it's Auburn Hills. So I really felt like

they should have watched that documentary but like you know what we didn't handle this right, we need to give them their money back. Honestly Ron lost five million dollars because somebody threw a beer at him because he defended himself. Like nobody's looking at that because it was black athlete and and and to this day We're still getting portrayed a hundred because we decided to go defend ourselves when we were wrong So I hate that when people see me They they a lot of people that would it be like Steve Jackson? I remember from the broad they're not saying that as a way of, man, I respect your loyalty.

I don't appreciate that. If they either making a joke or making it seem like it was something, I wasn't doing that to entertain you. I wasn't doing that to entertain no one. I was making sure my brother was okay. And then I put my life on the line. My whole legs was bleeding from hopping over bleaches.

It was all scratched up. I put my life on the line for my team. And I do it again, I do it for you right now, Dan. And we're not, we're not thinking about it. But a lot of people wouldn't understand that and dealing with that today was so, with so many great things that I've done. At times those people said that they don't mean it in a respectful way. It does bother me because I'm so much more than that. I don't think we interviewed anyone more than you on the highly questionable.

And one of the stories you told I think it was the first time you were ever on with us about loyalty was Being at the center of a raid in a home of a friend of yours that you were not participating in but you went in and you had an amount of drugs on you in order to help your friend and then a police officer came over and you were very fortunate that they didn't search you because you would've how old were you at that age? I was around 17, 16, 17, 18, someone around. Did you find yourself in a lot of situations like that where you were this close from losing

your freedom or losing your life? So now think about that. The feds in my friend's house, and like I told you, I wasn't doing these things, but I couldn't help but be with the guys because that's everything around me. And this guy actually took care of me. Like, when my older brother was killed,

he was one of the close friends of my older brother. And so he basically took me on this wing, bought me shoes, made sure I was fly, because I really didn't have nothing. And they were in this house, and you know, it was nine hours, nine hard hours of cocaine in this house, and everybody in my city knows this story.

And he wanted me to go get it out. And I love this guy, like the things he was doing for me, man. Like, you know, he was basically saving my life, you know, even if he was giving me $300, like I can go get a brand new past shoes. I know how hard my mama working, you know what I'm saying? She buying me a past shoes, but I got to wear that past shoes

all year, you know what I'm saying? So the things he was doing for me meant something to me and I seen he cared about me. So I went in there and got it out the house while they were in there. He came out and gave me his card and like, I know you, you know, cause they, they used to, um, escort our buses to basketball games. So they knew who I was, but they knew I hung around him.

So he just came outside and gave me his card and told me to, um, make sure Jard called him. And if I can do that, the bra was nothing. You see what I'm saying? This is where I come from. And, and it was the dumbest thing ever. I would say that where I come from. And it was the dumbest thing ever. I would say that to anybody that's listening, that was the dumbest thing ever to do.

I would never do that again. But I didn't know where my life was going. I was living for the day there. I was trying to, the money he gave me for that lasted me and my family a long time. I was able to do some things for my friends, my little brother, my son. It helped me out at the time.

And without knowing the consequences, it could brother, my son, like, it helped me out at the time. And without knowing the consequences, it could have ruined my whole life. But that's just the things that I, the people that I was around in the long time I was taught. You know, I do anything for people that care about me. And that situation, you know what I'm saying? It was, it's just show the type of person I am. But also, I'm willing to teach through that moment

because I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be the only person that's put in a position where your lord to all your life is a jeopardy. And I can't lie to you that if I knew I was going to the NBA and he called me, I wouldn't do it now. I wouldn't have done that now. What were your early teens like? It was basically you only, whatever you see is what you know.

Small then? Small. I don't see nothing outside of Port Arthur. You know, it's trying to survive, trying to eat, spending time with your friends, playing basketball, you know, smoking a little weed and everything, you know, I'm sitting there every now and then, but it played games. It wasn't really nothing to do. You know, you just you were surviving every day. You wake up and try not to catch a straight bullet or try not to go to jail.

And that's all it was. You know, basketball was the escape, but it was only escape for so many hours. You know, I had to come back to reality for, you know, eventually during the day. But being my family was strong in the church. So I think being in the church a lot growing up that helped me too because I knew right from wrong. I knew respect. Just like the guy coming here, I speak to everybody.

I treat everybody the same. Like I was taught that as a youngster. So I can say I'm a man of many hats. I might beat a guy up, could probably disrespect you you know, you might I might be the guy up Could probably disrespect you but on our way out. I might hold the door for all the ladies You know I'm that guy and I don't want to be Understood because I know my heart is always in the right place. Were you scared much during that always? Always I don't I don't think like people said scared or nervous I I said this talk of the Jim Gray and I love the fact that I be scared

and nervous because being nervous definitely doesn't mean you're scared, it just means you're anxious about being great. I'm more scared about not reaching my full potential than letting somebody down. You know what I'm saying? I know I have so much more in me and if I don't reach that potential, I gotta look in the mirror and see that person what I'm saying? I know I have so much more in me. And if I don't reach that potential, I gotta look in the mirror and see that person. I'm gonna be upset with him. You know, and that's what's more important to me because I know what I'm here for.

Not the kind of fear I was talking about. You're going different than the fear. I mean, you're talking about straight bullets. You're talking about surviving. And that's the kind of fear that I was talking about because you're notoriously tough. That happened during that time. You've said, I've heard you said, I make love to pressure.

I make, you just said a second ago, I make love to bad situations. You're used to it. I'm talking about the survival fear. Of course you're scared. Anybody, Mike Tyson was one of the toughest guys ever. He said, every time he got in the ring, he was scared. Of course you're scared because you don't,

a bullet don't have no name. You know, so I've seen innocent people get shot and killed. I've seen innocent people get jumped on. You know, I was standing outside the club, I'd say I was standing outside the club one time and we just standing there. It was late, everybody basically leaving and you know, there's a whole bunch of knuckleheads out there

and guys just bored. And the guy across the street, it's a whole bunch of knuckleheads out there and guys just bored and the guy across Street you just stand there with his friends or a guy just walks by and he just hit the guy there with a bottle And like we run over there and try to help the guy cuz like but they just this just nothing You know I'm saying just dumb stuff happens You know and like I felt bad for the guy You know I'm seven like he just walking home and these thugs, idiots, they got nothing to do, he just hit the guy in the head. So things could happen at any second

without your control and the environment like that. And a lot of people don't understand people that grow up like me when we make it out. That's why we stick our chests out. That's why we like diamonds and nice things. You might not understand this, but you don't understand what we made it out of. We've told so many times growing up

that you won't be successful, that you can't do this. Everybody gonna be working at the refiner. You'll never be a millionaire. Like you was told you couldn't and you wouldn't be so many times, even from people you love growing up. So when we make it out of that situation then, we stick our chest out

because we feel like we made it through hell. You know what I'm saying? And we feel like we deserve every life or everything that everybody else has hell. You know what I'm saying? And we feel like we deserve every life or everything that everybody else has had, you know what I mean? But everybody don't get that opportunity. I was able to, I got a great opportunity. I had a great, I was blessed.

I don't want to go to another subject there, but I was blessed to have a 16 year old Jewish kid with balls to pull up in my hometown to give me an opportunity. That's when my life changed. And so I said, we don't get the opportunities. Everybody don't get that. So I was blessed to have that. Well, tell me about that though.

Because we've got plenty of time here and I'm promising you and the audience that we're going to get to the subject matter that you're here for. I just don't want to derail everything because it's terrain that can be complicated for both of us. But tell me about the 16-year-old Jewish boy that changed your luck. Well this is someone who I love just more than anybody on this earth.

That's why I laugh at the Semitic stuff because you wouldn't know nothing about me, damn man. You wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for Josh Passman. No one in the world wouldn't know me. This kid was 16 years old, we the same age. I'm on the basketball court, it's drugs, guns, all type of stuff around my environment. This kid pulls up 16 years old and a white land cruiser to the park where I'm playing at. How do you know I'm here, first of all?

When someone like that pulls up in my environment, you used to be the police. Ain't playing at. How do you know I'm here, first of all? When someone like that pulls up in my environment, you used to be the police. Ain't nobody for me to talk to you. He walks up, he just walks up. I'm so much super confident by himself. Steven Jackson? I'm looking around like, you know, we all thinking of police guys

starting to walk up like, you know what I'm saying, what's going on? He's like, my name's Josh Passner. I got an AAU team in Houston. I wanted to see if you want you know what I'm saying, what's going on? He's like, my name is Josh Passner. I got an AAU team in Houston. I wanted to see if you want to come. I'm like, huh? And I'm thinking it's a joke. You know, because I'm, this never happens.

It's millions of guys around me that could play basketball that grew up, that I grew up watching, you know what I'm saying? That that should be an NBA. Some of them are better than you. They're out there on the park with me right now. They never got, they never had this. So I'm like, everybody's looking like, what? that should be in the NBA. Some of them are better than you. They're out there on the park with me right now. They never had this. So I'm like, everybody's looking like, what?

So you know, at the time, even though I'm in the environment, my heart is still the same heart I have today. So as soon as I see him that he's not a threat, I'm instantly protecting it. You know, I go to instantly put my arm around him and start talking to him to let them know that, you know what I'm saying, everything everything good because it can go south quick. I'm not the person in my hood where I can say don't do this.

I'm not no voice like that. I don't have no money. I don't have no rank in the hood to do that. So anything could happen at that time. But they have the respect of me knowing that I'm the next thing to come out of my hometown. And you're looking at him and saying you don't know the danger you've just walked into. I'm telling. I'm about to get into that to him.

But I'm about to let him know all that. But at the same time, I'm still in awe of what he's saying. You know, I've never heard nothing like this before. So tell the movies. It's blowing my mind, but at the same time, I'm trying trying to protect him he gets to explaining who he is where he lives Josh Pasterner I have a team called Houston Hoops in Houston me and my dad but I coached the team I basically run the team da da da da I mean Houston I'm like bro I don't have no car you know I get to tell them all these things don't

worry I'll drive now Houston Kingwood what are this hour hour 45, I'll drive it now. Houston, Kingwood, Port Arthur is our hour, hour 45. No, I'll drive and pick you up and practice and bring you back home. He was driving from Houston. He was driving from Houston. Back to Port Arthur twice a week, along with being in high school, along with coaching the team, along with doing his own workouts, just so I can have an opportunity because he believed in me. Nobody else believed in me. He believed in me. A kid. This was a kid. We the same age, but he was scouted. You know, his mind was a million miles ahead of mine in basketball.

Nobody at that point had felt made you feel like they believed in you even because you're saying that everyone around you is saying it's going gonna be the refinery, right? So my high school coach believed in me, but he didn't, he his words didn't make me believe that it could actually happen. Of course, he believed in me because I'm playing for him. But Josh coming somebody outside of my feeling you that is that is really real. And but we had the conversation and he was coming picking me up twice the week driving back and forth and um I started seeing it like when I first got to this house for the first time big old house big dog You know just a wiggle career like this is what we still on tv. I've never seen this like so I'm at all I'm walking in this house. I don't want to touch nothing. I don't want to break nothing like I'm from the hood

Like I've never seen nothing like this. So I'm just excited to be it You know, I'm scared. I've never seen a like this. So I'm just excited to be it. You know, I'm scared. I've never seen a dog this big. Like the whole toe thing is blowing my mind, but this is what people from my while grew up don't get a chance to see. It's more the life. You can be something else.

So being there, I was able to go there. I just stayed with him on the weekends. And along with playing with Josh Hoppastner, I was able to get themed by Steve Smith at Oak Hill. And my high school was good. I ended up winning the state championship my junior year. But my senior year, Josh felt like I needed to go to Oak Hill because I was too good to be in Texas playing basketball.

In order for you to reach your potential stack, you need to go to Oak Hill. So we had a AAU game and Josh and his dad brings Coach Smith over. And he introduced himself and they tell me about the school. In my mind, I ain't leaving my hometown. I'm the man, I just wanna stay championship. I finally get a chance to play with my little brother.

He's gonna be a freshman this year. So nah, I'm staying back, you know. But Josh and Coach Passner, this is where my family came in. Josh was like, Jack, you gotta do it. I'm still hard headed at the time. You know, I'm believing in him, but you know, I still got my street mentality. So I didn't wanna go.

So before school was getting ready, starting like maybe a month and a half, but football season has started in my high school. So I'm out there trying to put football. I'm out there running my routes, warming up, stuff like that. And I see my coach and my mom and my uncle walking on the track towards football field. And I turn around, I instantly knew what it was.

I already knew. It was like, my coach was like, uh-uh, something else. We ain't doing that. We ain't doing the NBA football all your life. Wrong sport. A couple years from going to the NBA, you might not see it. But we see it. You're not about to get hurt in the football field.

They pull me off. You know, me, I'm mad, crying, rebelling, you know, don't want to listen to nobody. And I think around it, right before I went to Oak Hill, I started smoking a lot because I was mad. You know, I said, I don't want to leave my own town. I don't want to go to a prep school where I got to wear uniforms. They separate the girls and boys. Like, that's going to be a culture shock for me. I'm not going go to prep school. Well, I gotta wear uniforms. They separate the girls and boys. Like, that's gonna be a culture shock for me. I'm not gonna make it there.

Man, they packed my stuff up. My mom drove me, I think it was like 18 hours. In a little small van, she had a friend that helped her renovate. We packed the van up with all kinds of stuff. And we drove from Port Arthur to the mouth of Western Virginia for 18 hours. The longest drive, worst drive ever.

And I get to this prep school and when I get there, I'm like, Steven, the whole time, 18 hours, you're sulking, Steven, hey, I agree, man, at your family. Poppin' the whole time, poppin' the whole time. And I know, I don't see it, but I know Josh is smiling the whole time on my way. I'm mad, but I know he at because he know where I'm going.

Right? And I get there, they give me uniforms. I'm like, dad, I'm telling her, I ain't gonna make it. I'm telling her, I'm not gonna make it. I'm not gonna make it. Well, the survival skills in me kicked in. So I got there and I seen what the basketball program was. Right? I figured out we weren't gonna be at school much. I figured we was gonna travel.

We was doing a lot of traveling, all these big terms and I'm like, okay, okay, I might like this, right? But I went there with a 1.7 grade average. So I thought it was just basketball. No, you still got to do schoolwork too. So that was hard for me, Dan. I ain't going to lie, that was hard for me because I wasn't a student. I didn't want to be a student. It wasn't that I couldn't Dan. I ain't gonna lie, that was hard for me because I wasn't a student. I didn't wanna be a student.

It wasn't that I couldn't learn, I didn't want to. And because I feel like what I wanted to do, I didn't need it. I'm an athlete, bro, you know, and which was the dumbest way to think. But I buckled down and got my grade point ever to a 2.3 in one year. And I was able to qualify for school.

During that year, we traveled a lot and my name got bigger. Well, I went from not being ranked in the top 15 in the country to being ranked in the top 15. Well, what was the team that you were on? How soon after that, you were the leading scorer on a team that had Kobe Bryant on it, right? So that was the McDonald's All-American game.

And that, but that was, there were other people in that game. It wasn't just Kobe, there were other. Yeah. And Thomas was in that game. Terrain O'Neill, Mike Bibby, Richard Hamilton. And you were the scorer. Yep. So I ended up making, I'm making,

I'm like McDonald's All-American, which I never thought I would have never made it from Port Arthur. I would have never made it from Lincoln High School. I get, that's the highest honor that you can get as a basketball player come out of high school. So at that moment, you know what I mean? I'm instantly, you know, feeling the, like I owe Josh something at that moment.

And let me say why I say it. I say at that moment, the McDonald's game because I know I wouldn't be here without him. Like look where I'm at. Like my mom's here, my uncle here. Like he believed in something that I couldn't even, I couldn't even see it. It something that I couldn't even I could even see it It had I couldn't even dream it. I it was not even a thought in my mind and that I would be at this point

you know what I mean that I can make it to the McDonald's game and All I was thinking well, how can I show him my appreciation, right? So I signed with the University of Arizona. I Tell them I'm not coming if Josh can't come the University of Arizona. I tell them I'm not coming if Josh can't come. This is how things are supposed to work when you genuinely love someone and you genuinely care about someone. He ends up going to Arizona. I end up not passing the test. They scheduled for me to take the test like four or five times and I still had that mentality of not, you know, I was going to the, I can't lie down. The test was at eight in the morning. I'd get home six thirty. Go take a shower, still hungover lie down. The test was at eight in the morning. I'd get home, 6.30, go take a shower,

still hungover and go on the test and fall asleep. Like this was, because I didn't care about, I actually didn't think I needed that to be successful. And I was so wrong. And you weren't really being taught discipline at all. At all. No, it wasn't being taught that. Like I said, I was learning everything

from trial and error growing up. A lot of things, besides being respectful and knowing right from wrong, but the things in life of taking the time to study and learn, I had to learn that from trial and error. That's why I'm so good at it now because I didn't care about it growing up. So Josh ends up being there. I ended up not making it into Arizona my first year. So I ended up leaving. Mike Bibby's mom didn't know, she knew that if I go back to Port Arthur time, I probably ended up dead in the jail.

My mom and her, they both was like, if he come back here, don't tell them what's gonna happen. And so I, she lets me stay with her. During that time, Arizona ends up winning the national championship. So Josh gets the national championship, which I'm so, I felt like I won one because that was my class.

And he ends up going on to end up being assistant coach at Arizona. So Josh gets the ass on the chef's ship. Which I'm so, I felt like I won one cause that was my class. And he ends up going on to end up being assistant coach at Arizona. So it all worked out for my boy, which was perfect. But I ended up staying with Mike Bibby's mom to the point where she cares so much about me. She didn't want me to go back home. So I ended up staying there and working out with her

with Mike's older brother, Dane. And still rebellious, you know, still getting in trouble even out there, you know, because Mike Brother, he wasn't all the way on the right side of the street either, you know what I'm saying? He was a little out there too. And so I fit right with him, but at the same time, he knew the mission that his mom had him on, you know what I mean?

Even though we did all the things, I stayed in the gym, I stayed working out to the point where she woke me up one morning, Dan. My life is really a movie. She woke me up one morning and she said, uh, grab your shoes, we're going to work out. Like cool. All right. We not going to the LA Fitness with me and Dane or the local wives, they don't normally work out at.

We end up downtown at the Stiles Arena. Why are we here? So minute by minute, I'm getting more and more excited like hold up, hold up. We ended up going to the practice gym. Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, they all in there. And this year, this is about the time where Phoenix had made a whole bunch of trade. So they had one draft pick in the draft was the second to last pick in the draft because this year they traded for McDyce and all those guys so they had no picks. Don't have one pick, the second to last pick in the draft because this year they traded for McDyce and all those guys

so they had no picks, don't have one pick, the second to last pick. So I went in there and she was like, put your shoes on, go play. I'm looking at her like, huh? Then the angel comes over, says hi, go shoot up. I go out there and murder everybody. This is my opportunity.

One thing I say I make love to pressure, look at my career in basketball. I, when it's time for me to show up, like PMC say, when the boy get out there, he do get out there and get it, man. Yes, I go out there, when it's time for me to show up, I show up. And I saw an opportunity.

And this was made the opportunity even better for me. Jason Kidd, when I walked in that gym, he put something in me. I don't know what it was. Like, I'm confident you're on my team. Jason Kidd, when I walked in that gym, he put something in me. I don't know what it was. Like, I'm confident that you're on my team. Like, as soon as I walked in the gym, and I was getting loves, I was getting all kind of stuff,

and I had a great showing at 18 years old. And I ended up getting drafted by the sounds, but I ended up getting cut. They guaranteed me $250,000, but I didn't have a spot on the roster, so I had to go up by the sounds, but I ended up getting cut. They guaranteed me $250,000, but I didn't have a spot on the roster, so I had to go out to the CBA. You spent all that money in the mold, didn't you? So yeah, so my first check,

they gave me a $25,000 check. And like I said, I've come from nothing. And I was anxious about doing something, except for me and my friend, like I just wanted to do something. I knew more money was coming, but I didn't know at the time what I was doing is so ass in there. I go, I get the check, right?

As soon as I get it, I go to the bank and try to cash it. Not knowing, it's like a back then, we didn't put a check for that much. It's like a hold or something like a couple of days hold. So I go to the bank, I'm mad. I'm like, no, no, man, you can't tell me. This is my money. I'm not understanding. So I'm damnn about to go to jail trying, I'm mad. I'm like, no, no, man, you can't tell. This is my money. Like I'm not understanding.

So I'm damn anybody to go to jail trying to get my check cash because they tell me you got man, there's no such thing as a hold. My name is Steve. That are the dut. They didn't want to hear none of that. None of that work at the bank. My name is nothing. Nothing. You OK?

I see you. You're checking the CSID, but you still go away to this check clear. So we just sitting at home the next few days biting our nails off. We got my check in there, Oh, check in there account, check in the account. Me, Mike Bibby, my little brother, and Mike Bibby's sister, Charlesy. Waking one morning.

It hit, it hit. Wake everybody up, go to the bank, take all of it out there. 25 can, take it all out around this time. Air Max, Javos, Polos, all that type of stuff was there. Left them all. With me, Mike, and my brother and his sister left about 2,500 left. Every Air Max, every Javos, every piece of clothes we ever dreamed of, we bought.

Got home. Mike Mom relayed the messages to my mom. It was a long time after that before I seen another chick. So I held onto that $2,500. They had to make me laugh the last for a while. I didn't see a chick for a long time after that. Mom shut it down. Let it down. Now I got my natural vows all cost them.

No, we're not doing this right now. You still get it. Maybe this answer is self-evident. But when I ask you, why were you getting in so much trouble? Why were you not knowing any better? You can look back as an adult, but you're saying I had to do all that stuff to fail to learn where it is that I wasn't smart.

Yeah, try to narrow it,, but also, either I stay at a house, as soon as you go outside, you're into some type of situation. Even if I go to the basketball court, it's going to be a situation there. Drugs have been sold there. If I go to my friend to hang out with my friends on the other side of town. I might be caught up in the beef. That's you know, I'm saying so. It was basically hard to escape the trouble.

Now, the getting pulled over with weed, or getting in fights, stuff like that, yeah, that was all on me. I chose to do those things. But that comes with the people I'm with, the guys I'm loyal to, you know, just being in a situation that you can't really avoid. So yeah, some of that stuff is just a part of life growing up

in Port Arthur that you have to deal with. And everybody don't make it out That's why I'm thankful and I always show love to the people that protect me because a lot of people before me should be here in my position It should be professional basketball should be professional athletes should be successful They didn't get the opportunities I got or you know had the protection I had When and how did you become good with your hands? you know, had the protection I had. When and how did you become good with your hands? When did and how did you become tough?

And if not fearless, looking and seeming fearless? I think the first time you show that you're scared where I'm from is gonna be abused. They're gonna take advantage of it, right? And me, even though it's times where like most of the time I am scared, I'm not afraid of human beings. I'm afraid of what can happen. I could die. I get knocked out, but I feel the same. I feel I have the same But I feel the same. I feel I have the same.

Skills to hurt you as you hurt me, maybe even more. You know, so I've never been afraid of a human being. Then that just come from a kid. Like I'm I'm really the as a kid, I got in fights and I remember my cousins took my ice cream when I was a kid and I turned and punched him. You know, it's a picture when he took it. Still a picture of my mom, a guy with him taking my ice cream and I punched him. I just I just never been scared of anything. You know what it's a picture when he took it's still a picture to my mama guy with him taking my ass came and I punched him I just I just never been scared of anything. You know I'm saying, you know, I think though I was taught as a York's don't fear anything but God. I'm to my I'm hearing that as a kid

That's all I'm not okay. I'm not even scared of weapons. You know, I'm scared at the time But I go in the room that wasn't I'll cry but that wasn't you know I'm saying but like That's just was instilled to me that I can't really tell you where I came from Maybe it comes from my hometown maybe comes from you know my father or just wasn't still you but I can't really put Cuz I don't I'm never I'm never the type to make up anything so I can't tell you where it come from I think it was just it was just instilled to me until this day like that's why I'm willing to take up for people I'm not I've never been afraid of another human being regardless of what they say or what they look like.

And I don't think that's taught. You gotta be in you, not on you. We grew up very differently when you talk about the photograph with the ice cream because some of the earliest photos are of my little brother with a stick and me with an eyepatch because he was the rebellious one and he was the one who was always getting in trouble.

Where and how did you learn how to love because you love hard? Well, that's a good question. So a couple situations. So losing a lot of people, growing up, helped me love hard. And cause I felt like certain situations, like when my older brother getting killed, I felt like I was not too far away. And if I was with him, it wouldn't have happened.

I love hard because I've seen the sacrifices that a woman can make for their children. the sacrifices that a woman can make for their children. The, you can't show love no harder than that. Putting your health on the line, you know, just not everything that you wish you had in life, or the things you wanted to do, you putting all that behind and basically going to a place where chemicals are basically killing you

every day. There ain't no secret the chemicals that they're killing they were killing the workers special my mom was growing was working there and Just seeing that like there's no love harder than that and my grandmother Waking up every morning this 13 grandkids in the house Waking up every morning this 13 grandkids in the house Nine to 13 grandkids in the house and she got to feed them all breakfast and get them ready for school. None of them are kids

Seeing her do this every day with no reward for it Like that's loving heart. So I've seen it first hand. I've seen it firsthand and Growing up so for me That's one of those things too is it got to be in you not on you. I seen it. I wasn't taught it. I seen it first hand and growing up. So for me, that's one of those things too, is it gotta be in you, not on you. I seen it, I wasn't taught it, I seen it. It risks the greatest loss, right? To love like that is the pain that I still have in me, the ardor you love, the more that it hurts.

We will talk about the recent loss of your little brother, but I figure that your loyalty came from a regret I've heard you articulate a number of times, which is your older brother Beating to death with with bottles and pipes, right? I got a funny story. So I got I got an updated story about it So this is how this is how real I am I'm still connected, you know, I'm still talk to a lot of my friends from hometown. Friends that's been in and out of jail. And the situation happened the way exactly where I said it happened.

But a friend of mine actually talked to some of the guys that was involved. And they wanted it to get back to me because they respect me. They appreciate the person I've become, how know how I made it out the hood, how I still show love and take care of my city. And they wanted me to know that it didn't go down like I was told. The fight happened, they jumped them at all that, but the bottles and pipes didn't happen.

They say when they jumped on them, when they knocked them, when they hit them and he fell down, he hit his head on the curb. And that's how his head split open. Knowing those guys, what they did was totally wrong. Some of those guys did their time, but I respect them for relaying that to somebody who I love. And I believe it, because they didn't have to do that. They didn't did their time.

It didn't happen. So that feels better to know, but it's still gonna make it better. He's still not here. So just not being there when I'm about five minutes old, I'm probably not even five minutes away in my friend house on the 3200 block, not even knowing what's going on. And it's just, you know, going to the hospital,

I didn't want to go see him when it first happened. I gave him some time and my dad was my dad, kept telling me to come over there. This is not my mom's son, this is my dad's older son. And, but I live with my dad for a little while and I admire my brother. And I'm gonna be honest with you then, I admire him for all the wrong stuff, right?

He, they'll tell you in my hometown, it's songs and stories about my old brother. He terrorized the city. He was a real gangster. And a lot of people didn't mess with me because of him. You know, I was there to be honest, because he really lived that life. But I say that to say,

I didn't want to go to the hospital because I didn't want to see him like that. That was my protector, I was learning stuff from him. I had to go see him. So he didn't, he had like 18s, 18 staples or something in his head. And when I went in the hospital, you know, nobody got no emotion. He was brain dead already. He was basically, you know, just a vegetable at the point. And I go in the hospital and I kiss him on his forehead and a tear drop out his eye.

No emotion up until that point and a tear dropped out his eye. No emotion up until that point and a tear dropped out his eye. Because I knew he wanted to say something to me. And for me, I took it as, don't do nothing stupid, bro. Don't go do nothing stupid, you know what I'm saying? And I knew he couldn't say anything. I knew I wouldn't, you know, I, but I knew that's what he was trying to say to me now. And he died shortly after, like, I mean, I was after.

He died, I was after. And that bothered me, you know, because, like I said, I knew I could have changed it if I could have been, maybe not, maybe we both would have been dead, who knows. You know, but just losing him at a young age when I was at the point, you know, where maybe I could change, you know what I'm saying?

I was thinking, you know, maybe something can happen for me or I. You know what I'm saying? I was thinking maybe something can happen for me. I don't know, I just felt like it was gonna be different. You know, I feel like he should be, like even right now, being here, doing this interview with you, with all the success we have with all the show, I still feel both of my brothers should be in there right now.

You were about 14, 14 years? About 15, 16. How did the new information reopen wounds for you like to learn that it wasn't because you were probably imagining right you're imagining I wasn't there to protect him from pipes and bottle Yeah, and really I would you know the person he was I felt like nobody was out there can protect him from that But I'm it was it didn't open it gave me a little relief from that, but it didn't open, it gave me a little relief knowing that he didn't, you know, I'm saying he still suffered, but knowing that they didn't do that to him, knowing that they, you know, kept a cold to it, you know, I'm saying it was just a fight in the end of that way,

you know, I respect that even more. So let's talk about this part of it, because I'm not sure what it is that reached you from the last time that I talked to you about it. I've struggled with this. I don't have solutions. I have isolated from some people, but I have talked about it publicly and I've talked about it with some people in ways that have offered some healing, but the pain for me is real and I think I'm not sure, but the place that it connected with you, because I don't know how much you've spoken about your little brother who passed in November, I think a couple of the places and I don't want to speak for you here but resonated with you is that I was telling you that I had a year at his deathbed that I'm very grateful

for because it wasn't sudden. So it was a horrible year. The worst, but I'm grateful that I had some sort of warning. And then the other part of it is, that's my little brother. I'd never imagined the possibility, even while I'm at a death bed, even now while I'm talking to you. The idea of it just seems impossible to me, because I helped raise him. I don't have kids.

It's like this. I haven't lost a child But it feels like I can't imagine a pain a lot worse than this How have you dealt with this how have you dealt with the loss of your little brother what who's helping you I Haven't I haven't dealt with And the way I don't dealt with it. And in the way I don't want to. But it's similar to you, I never picture life without it. A lot of the stuff I did, a lot of the thing I aspired to do,

was to make him happy, was to show him I can do it. It was no personal on earth. Every time I did something, then I get a text from it. I'm not surprised you could do anything. This is the relationship we had. So I just, it's just hard because being so close to somebody, just I was three years old,

being so close to my little brother since I was three years old being so close to my little brother since I was three years old man and And just the bar the bar we had The pressure that was on him being my little brother, you know with him playing basketball and growing up, you know I think for me The the the the way we felt about each other was so mutual because The way we felt about each other was so mutual because he appreciated the things that and the man I was to be there for our family and to change our life and the willingness to work hard and put myself through whatever for a better living for us.

But he also understood that I admired him. I wanted to be him. My little brother did everything the way I wanted to. My little brother didn't have baby mamas all over the place like I did, like I do. He didn't have kids all over the place like I did. My brother married his high school sweetheart. Had three kids, was raising his kids, was working, was doing everything that I wanted to do. But I wasn't mentally strong as him, so my brother was the glue to my family.

So I was able to travel and go around the world and do things and be successful while he was holding the family down. You know, anything that my mama needed, or my sister needed, or even my kids that was in the area needed, he was there for us. So he was the glue to my family. And not having him takes a big part of me,

or out of me then because that's the only person that I can rely on that I know and this is not no disrespect to anyone on this earth that love me but with him I know I was gonna get judged at no time at no time I was gonna get a honest response from it I was gonna get an honest response from it and everything was gonna be genuine and just not having him here I just never picture life without him dad just not having him here and I've been able to call him I talked to him all before he passed and not knowing how he passed, you know, just saying, you know, the hospital and I said it wasn't cardiac, it just, it's hard to stop. Like it's just, it's just, I don't think I'll ever be alright because I'm gonna, I'm gonna always feel like I need to take some, I'm gonna always feel

like I want to talk to him because Ia always feel like I wanna talk to him because I didn't confide in nobody and that's why I never talked about this because I talked to him about everything. Children, relationships, I talked to him about everything. He was the closest person to me. And a lot of the things I did, a lot of the things I did,

as far as expiring to do this and act, I did everything. A lot of stuff was because I wanted to show him because he was telling me I could do it. Things that I didn't even think I was even a thought of mine was that you could do this, Jack, you could do this. Like and not hearing that, not having that in my ear. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts.

It hurts. It's just hard to explain there, but just not having him here, not being able to call him. Like, remember, they say when you lose someone, the love doesn't go away. You don't have no way to show them or express it, so it come out your eyes. And I'm gonna be like that for the rest of my life.

I've been crying so much, like I'm embarrassed by it. I cry here, my wife, I'm telling her all the time, like I don't wanna be crying so much, but it sounds to me like you've been pushing some of this down too. Like it's not great. If you don't have the confidant or the person that you would normally lean on this,

then what do you do? You just shove it down. But yeah, people don't think, especially as a black man, I got children to provide for I got business I'm trying to be great I'm trying to start a business I'm trying to do all these things you know it's hard to sit there for I don't have time to sit there and this song feel sorry for my son to grieve when a minute come on Steven it's hard to grieve like it's not feeling sorry for yourself it's grieving

and you're right no you're right but as a black man with all the responsibilities with the stuff they peep that especially the people that you provide for a lot of times they don't understand what they put on you but at the same time I accepted so I put that first before my own well-being because I've seen my mom do it I've seen so many people do it. You know it's not healthy. It's not healthy. You know it's not.

And that's why we didn't know. Like your mom gave you all that love, but you gotta love yourself too. You gotta love yourself first. First maybe? That doesn't seem like your way, right? If you're running into the stands to help a teammate like you're you're not necessarily considering yourself first, right? One of my kids said this to me recently Dan. That's funny. You said it's late a daddy

I think it's time for you to start being a little selfish And this is coming from one of my kids because you know what I've been through with my other kids moms and in all Relationships with kids and family and life, you know, my oldest daughter kids, moms and all the relationships with kids and family and life, you know, my oldest daughter. And that hit me. And that hit me because I never thought that. I never thought about being selfish. I never thought about putting me first because I think the reason why I go so hard is because I'm responsible for other people. And maybe that's, maybe, you know, maybe that's, it's hurting me too at the same time. I gotta think about that there. Well, it hurts happiness, right?

Like I've heard enough therapists talk about the idea that and it's love it, that you would love hard. Like I said, you gotta love yourself first in order to love everyone else correctly. Like you can't, there's gonna be, if you're avoiding the things that you need to take care of yourself, you're going to be less happy in ways that you may not even realize day to day.

Yeah, yeah. I was told, it's hard to be there for everybody else when you can't be there for yourself. I'm starting to learn that, Dan, and God is continuing to bless me, the partnership with y'all, the show, like a lot of stuff that's happening to me, I never thought, you know, would be happening. But I feel like it's happening because my heart is always in the right place. Yeah, I'm not always right. Yeah, I'm like, I say a lot of things out of

passion. I might react certain ways, but I'm my heart is in the right place. So I think I'm comfortable with that. What do you think you're going to do to help actively help yourself here when it, as it revolves around Donnie's passing? I don't have an answer to that. You know, I'm always real with you. I don't know there. I really don't know.

I think this is a good first step for me because I never publicly talked about. I mean, you know, when I first came back on the show, I barely got through the show with Magi Show what I did for Matt and I needed to be around Matt. You know what I'm saying? Because that's my brother. That's one of the closest things, like my little brother.

So being around him at this time and talking to him about it, but I just been real shell to the body. Like I said, what made me open up to you and willing to talk to you about you, because you can feel me. You feel my pain. Like hurt is hurt.

Hate is hate, regardless how you put it. It's the same definition. So if you lose somebody and I lose somebody, we both hurt the same way. I don't know, relationships are different, but the love and I see it in your eyes the way you felt about your little brother. I couldn't imagine watching my little brother for a year. I couldn't imagine that. So when you said that to me, I honestly,

I feel like I have somebody that can relate to me and understand that, you know, that when I sit here as a 45-year-old grown man with everybody thinking I'm tough and that I'm just such this hard guy, that if I sat down with this guy and spewed my real feelings and even if I let out some tears and snuck him out my nose, that's somebody that's going to understand it and not judge me. So I seen that from the short conversation. We never had a show opening like that, where we could even start our show

because the conversation, man, you had was so deep. So that touched me, Dan. And we've had millions of interviews before you. We've had, I had other guys asked about it, but I've never had that moment. And I held onto that moment. So that's why I was so excited to get here, to talk to you about it,

because I knew it would help me, and hopefully it'll help you, because I wanna know how you're doing too. Well, I imagine your situation to have been harder than mine. You say you can't imagine being there for a year. And I have some trouble. He was such a vibrant personality that was such a vibrant personality that seeing him deteriorate physically was an uncommon horror. But you lost your brother in a car accident and he might have had cardiac arrest

before the car accident and then it's gone with no warning. You can't say any of the things that you want to say. You can't like he knew you loved him. But I got a chance to say all the things. Your situation seems to me to have something that could have more guilt in it. You know guilt being one of the stages of grief just because you were denied the opportunity to say all the things so that goodbye would feel more complete, less shocking, even though it's still shocking. I prefer my set of circumstances because even though I was only physically getting half of them, the lower half of his body just wasn't functioning anymore

um, I Got half of it, you know, and it was better than whatever I think I don't know I I don't mean to speak for you, but but that's yours seems harder What now I will say this I Don't think there's nothing that I could have said to him That'll make me not that'll make me feel good about not having him here nothing so so If I would have got that time with him. Yeah, I would have appreciated it, but I want to be a day I want to be up right now

And I would I would never get past that I I would never get past that. I've done so much stuff where if I passed, in my mind, yeah, okay, yeah, you guard the blessed few many times. You got hit by a car, you should have died that night. Other incidents, the house gets shot up, I'm standing right there, two people get shot and I'm the only one that don't get shot. I have so many situations where it should have been me. I'm standing right there two people get shot and I'm the only one that don't get shot like I Have so many situations where it should have been me not the most purest thing in my life Not the purpose perfect person in my life

And that's what I don't understand. So I mean, I'll never get to that point that I don't think I don't think because I'm always have a Moment while I look to my left and right. I'm gonna always have a moment where I pick up my phone I pick up my phone. He's on my phone, he's on my phone. It's gonna always be that moment where it's gonna be something new that I want to say to him. So, I don't think I ever get to that point, ever. I didn't even know how much I loved my brother until he was in that bed and I wished it was me. So that it wouldn't have to be him. You do realize though, right? I hope you realize, like, I am so grateful for having known that

I could love like that. Like, that's why it hurts the way that it does. Otherwise, it wouldn't hurt like this. I am so grateful, I imagine you are because you sound like you admired him on top of everything else. Never mind loving him. It sounds like it sounds like you thought in many ways he was he was better than you as I often thought my brother was more courageous than I was. What is his name? What happened? Name wonder? He's the second pitch. Yeah, my inspiration. My whole life. I didn't have him in my phone as his name. That's my inspiration. He still inspires me to date. He inspired me more, even more these girls, because I want to be there for his son. I know the father he was. I know

what he wanted for his son. So, it's just what he meant to me was more than just a physical being. You know what I'm saying? He was more than that to me. And you know, I hope people, be able, everybody's every spirit, relationship or love like that was someone in their lifetime. And with me saying that my mom and my sisters, my mom and my sister know how me and my little brother was. And they know I will never be the same I would never be the same and yet you've had a more experience than I have with death

I don't know if somebody gets better at that. I don't know if You have any better coping mechanisms if you have any advice that you can impart on me because like I said Not only have I been isolating for many months the people people I went through this with, his best friend and his wife, I haven't even spent many times with them because I just can't rummage around in this bin too much. It just it hurts so much that I can only take it in doses. You kind of get to the point where I've been through so much, so let me just, so about seven, eight years ago, my mom's mom died, my grandmother died, who raised me.

Two months later, my dad's mom died. On the morning of my dad, my dad found out his mom died, my dad took some stuff that instantly put him, made him brain dead. So he finds out she dies on the morning of her funeral, my dad dies. A month before my, two months before my brother, my little brother died, we talking about my little sister dies. So it's like, it's not to the point where I'm numb, numb, I run from it a lot there and I can't lie.

I run from it a lot, but I get caught up and I think this is good for me, even though a lot of my life has been hurt. I'm blessed, damn. I'm grateful. I know a lot of people that should be here that's not because they didn't make the right decisions. I know a lot of people that should be here that's not because they didn't make the right decisions.

I know a lot of people that should be here, they just didn't get the opportunity. So with me dealing with all the stuff I got, the loss and everything that I've done with the right and wrong, I stay thankful and I always look at the positive side and know where it could be a lot worse. And I know somebody else out here somewhere, somewhere, got away worse than me that's not complaining. So I deal with it. It hurt.

I'm human. I got my ups and downs. I go into my, you know, I'm a homebody now. So I stay home a lot. I cry a lot at home. But I get through it because I know it's somebody that got it worse. Well, but you say you deal with it,

but it sounds like you're doing some classic avoidance, not dealing with it. You say running away from deal with how I know somebody that got it worse. Well, but you say you deal with it, but it sounds like you're doing some classic avoidance, not dealing with it. You say running away from it. How I know how, which might not be the right way. Well, I'm asking you this though, have you considered the possibility of running toward it? Have you considered not running away from it that running toward pain might have some growth

and healing on the other side of it because It doesn't sound necessarily like running away from it Your loss might my loss is more recent than yours Your loss seems like it feels the same to you that it felt to hurt just as much and it was longer ago It was more than a year ago and it and the pain is still real if you considered another path toward well This is this is a big step for me to be talk about it like this I I've never been the guy that felt like I want to go to talk to a therapist because my my question was always who they go to with their problems

Right like who's the therapist talk to it a problem? so I never thought of that I've always felt like I Like stuff to happen on organic like now like it happened on our show that brought me here Like I like I like and I know God is gonna put me in a situation For me to be better every day of my life and I knew it was gonna be a situation where come out I didn't know how I didn't know we was gonna have that conversation But this is it. This is a step ahead and I'm a real organic let things happen guy. I don't force nothing and This was the time for me to start it and wherever it goes from here I'm open to it because when I say avoidance. I don't avoid it with anybody like my wife has taught me and I want to talk as you

Mention some of your relationship stuff. I want to talk about How love feels like with a partner because sitting with you guys and I don't think the interview has aired on all the smoke yet that we did. But I did say to you guys because we were talking about you asked me about love and I told you something about my wife and Matt said behind every good man there is a good woman and I'm like no man she ain't not behind me. She's out in front of me. Like she opens doors and lights swing open because she's changed my worldview, my perspective.

She's taught me how to love better, how to love harder because I'm willing to make some of the changes that I have to make here. So I have someone I'm confiding in. I have someone who sees me sobbing at breakfast and saying, I'm broken and I don't feel alone. You lost the person who would have been that for you. And so I would suggest to you, if it's not too forward, that you need some tools. You can wait for the universe to bring them to you, but you're also pretty willful when you decide that you want something right and

so if you want there there are tools here with with grief managers or people that you trust or or or just maybe people have experiences so that at least you can be less alone with it because when I tell you I'm isolating I am isolating but there are a couple of places where I'm putting it. I am not alone with it. Yeah, and I've had it. I don't really, my wife would tell you, I don't talk to her, she'll hear me crying and laughing out and just come check on me. Like, yeah, I don't, you know, because like,

I feel like I'm just wired. Like, I don't wanna put my problems on nobody. Oh yeah, but that's true. You know what I mean? Yeah, and that might not be right, but that's- You know what I mean? Yeah, that's- It might not be right, but that's just how I am. Like, then I'll lose it all the day and won't nobody know. Because in my mind, I can get it back.

I don't need to call nobody and say like, that's just how I am. And it might not be realistic to allow- Well, it's not real vulnerable. It's not, I think one of the great trusts you can give somebody, your wife, anybody is not real vulnerable. It's not, I think one of the great trusts you can give somebody, your wife, anybody, is your real vulnerability. But I understand the impulse,

especially the way you've been. My wife said it all the time there. She said it all the time. And she is right. I don't open up to my wife as much as I should because I feel like I'm the protective provider. I don't have time to bitch and moan or cry. You know what I'm saying? That's why I do it in my own time and just to get it out so I can continue to do what

I need to do. You know what I mean? But maybe I, you know, she does say that a lot. Have you considered that your relationship might be deeper if you weren't so stubbornly male that way? I understand how you become that. I'm definitely stubborn, my wife, she's 100, I'm definitely stubborn, she'll bring up stuff,

well, I'm like, baby, I don't wanna talk about it. You know, I got it, I deal with it, you know what I'm saying? And I ball it it up, you Well, I be like, baby, I don't want to talk about it. You know, I got it. I deal with it. You know what I'm saying? I ball it up, you know, and go in the room and pull my hair out, trying to come up with a solution. I just don't really want to put that pressure on her. But I know her being my partner, she don't feel like I'm putting pressure on her.

She feel like we're a team, which we are. And I do, you know, I'm so honored to say that I do need to open up to her on that side of it. Let them love you. Cry to the sea. Let people love you. If you love hard and you get the joys and... I gotta stop giving. I should accept it too.

I get... yeah. Yeah. Well, especially though, it's tough to be with the vulnerable. It's tough with the vulnerable stuff because that's like that's where you leave yourself most exposed And I also I can't even begin to understand even as you described it for us. You're the way that you were shaped. I Understand how it is that you would always feel the need I'm in charge. I'm I will lead here. I can handle anything because I have I'm not I told I've told you I'm not as tough as you are I have not had the I don't have these experiences that would scar me

But it's also becomes armor becomes barbed wire becomes sandpaper And it's not always good because you know You you you look unapproachable that way and I'm the most approachable you notice I'm the most approachable person ever But what you hear about me and you'll see me just standing in my bed you like he's not a problem fan But nah, he might hit me or something like that and that's the downside of it and that which I hate I said it other day. I don't I don't want to walk in the room Dan. I Worked so hard. I've done so many great things. I don't want to walk in the room as oh

Here comes Steven Jackson from the bra that got him to shoot out of the Stube Club. No, I wanna walk us in the room as a award-winning podcast, our production company owner. I wanna walk in the room as a man who is receiving the lifetime achievement award from the president Biden in a couple months. I wanna walk in the room as a guy who's been honored,

Jersey's been retired at Oakie. I wanna be honored for the good thing, knowing it's the good thing is not just that. And I've worked so hard for that. And a lot of people live off the bad thing. They feel like that makes them continue to be liked. I don't want that type of life. I want to be liked from people who respect my evolution,

how I've involved, how I've grown, you know? And that's why I'm at today. So that's why I'm willing to listen to you and be open to certain things, because I wasn't this guy 10, 15 years ago, especially when I was playing in the NBA, because of how they treated me. I should have been an all star four or five times,

but I wasn't because I was loyal to my friends, because some guys was about to jump my friends at a strip club and I jumped out and helped them, and I had a gun license, they don't get into the facts of those things. So, you know, I've never been shown who I really am, you know what I'm saying? And to the point, I don't care what people think, but I care what people think that I love.

That matters to me. Well, you mentioned your inspiration and you mentioned three children with his high school sweetheart. Have you considered that the way that you are keeps you from the kind of loving relationships? You said with some derision, I've had a number of kids with many women. Have you considered the idea that

your way of being might keep people from getting to know the most vulnerable you and the way that can result in lasting joy and love? Yeah, I know I definitely play a part in it. But also, I've been But also, I've been brutalized and taken through core systems by people who I've changed, whose lives I've changed. So, I would, to see that you have women who have never seen a million dollars in their life without your hard work or their lives completely being changed for the rest of their lives over your hard work and they want to put you in jail. People that I gave, it's the most to 30% of my NBA contract when I was playing was going to court and child support.

These were people that I did the most for that's trying to ruin me. Yeah, I'm scarred. I'm definitely scarred. My wife tell me that all the time. But with taking my responsibility and my fault in it, my fault wasn't that. My fault wasn't trying to ruin somebody. You know what I'm saying? My fault wasn't taken from anyone. If I'm wrong for anything, I'm wrong for making lives better. Yeah, I might have made some bad decisions, but we all do. I might have made some mistakes that we all do.

But when you come down to it, the quality of life and the way things are now, it wouldn't be that without my hard work and the things I went through, the ups and downs and the things I was going to. So for people that you dedicated your life and your hard work to and for life to be changed to do the worst things to you Then people that from other races that haven't done to you like that that you'll be scarred so I am scarred from this the way that women did me and the situations I've been in with women But much love and I respect them all now. We have great relationships

But those situations Have kept me from opening up because women can, women have in my past, the worst things I've been in my life, they bring those things up to heart you. So to bring you down the most, you know, the things, the bad things I've done in my life and the worst things that's have been said to me in my life then has come from people that I've been in relationships with, because they know what to say to hurt you.

And I'm not that type of person. If I love you, the last thing I'm trying to do is say the one thing that I know that's gonna make you tell you down. I'm forever scarred because I'm not that person. So. It sounds like your answer to my question is fuck no. I've been hurt a lot.

I'm dead. I'm distrustful. That's it. My armor's up for good. I'm not giving up much more vulnerability, I've been hurt a lot. I'm distrustful. I, that's it. My armor's up for good. I'm not giving up much more vulnerability than I've already given up. I can't do it. I can't do it.

You weren't in any way prepared for the temptations that came with the 17 years in the NBA, right? Not that any formed adult necessarily could be prepared for that. I wasn't. Not even close. You know, I was blessed to get a good education of how to be a professional from San Antonio, you know, early my second and third year in the league. But the mindset of me doing it my way, you know, it hurt me a lot. It hurt me a lot.

I confided in certain people, like Steve Smith and certain guys, but once you leave those teams, your relationships change. So I'm on teams now, I'm going to teams like Atlanta, Golden State, Indiana, where me and everybody really the same age. So I made a lot of mistakes that I own them to and I'm glad I made them down

because I wouldn't be here right now as intelligent as I am, as experienced as I am, and as open as I am to date because experience is the best teacher. And I know a lot of guys who went through situations but didn't learn from them. Guys that were the all-stars, guys that were on all the commercials and stuff like that,

but they didn't pay attention to the good and the bad. They just worried about themselves and not looking at the total aspect of things, like even with Rachel. You wouldn't, people wouldn't think out of all the people that Rachel didn't came through with them, basically have a will be club type like that. Rachel Nichols, Rachel is also part of all this mode.

Nobody would think that, right? Nobody would think that. But after every game, I took the time to talk to her. I know how, trust me, I knew how a lot of guys was and it, you know, got a lot of guys wasn't, you know, a lot of guys wasn't as keen to talk to women reporters. You know what I'm saying? But just like to the, I respect everybody the same. I've always been that way, bro.

That's just how I am. There's no effort in that. It takes all the effort in the world to hate somebody. It takes no effort to show love and show respect. So not even thinking that when I'm retiring that Rachel will have a movie starting her own show. I'm like, oh will have a movie starting her own show. I'm like, oh, I got a grip, you know, and I'm one of her first co-hosts. So like, I don't, I don't think like that. I just, I'm just a guy who I know what's right, you know, and I leave in my heart. My passion might offend some people, but trust me,

mad to say this too. That don't talk much, especially when it comes to business stuff with all the smoke. But when I say something, it's normally valid. You know what I'm saying? Because I play my part. I always say one thing about me, you know, Tim called me the ultimate teammate, but I love being the star of my role. I don't over I don't overstep whatever my role is I need to do for any team I'm on. You can put me anywhere. I guarantee you it's the role that I can fit in. And I know what's right. So, it might be misinterpreted, a lot of things I say and do damn, but I know for the most part

that my heart is always in the right place. Well, let's talk about some places where you've found yourself trying to spread love or been accused of spreading hate. You were in the middle of George Floyd related things. You were friends with George Floyd. You physically, people have noticed this, facially, you look like George Floyd. The specifics of going through all of that. What can you tell me about what you learned what that felt like how turbulent all of that was? personally

It's just when I first picture my mind just goes it reminds me like scenes of a movie like I never thought that I would be The face of the biggest civil rights movement ever The face of the biggest civil rights movement ever. 50 states and 18 countries are protested. It's never been done. I never thought I'd be the face of that. Growing up, me, protesting, leading the march, like, those things never crossed my mind. That wasn't in my future.

I never thought that. But I've shown a number of times that I'm loyal to my friends and I'm loyal to my friends. I'm loyal to a fault. So I had no idea what I was doing then. I was woke up by my mother-in-law telling me, you seen what they did to your friend. Like, what friend?

In Minnesota, I'm like, my friend in Minnesota, I'm not even thinking about it. So I'm half asleep, my daughter's with me. So I look at the message and I just put it back down, I kind of doze back off and my phone is buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, buzzing. So I answered in my home bar from Mike from my hometown, named Mike D.

He's like, oh, you see what they did to Georgie? I'm like, Georgie, I'm like, Georgie? When he said Georgie, it instantly clicked because before he went to Minnesota, it's put a job on my Instagram where I sent him, he called me and asked for clothes for job interviews. So I sent him a box of stuff and he put it on Instagram, I love you bro, thank you the

other duck. That was his whole reason for going to Minnesota was to get a CDL license, to get out the environment in Houston and to start fresh. Which I was all for, because his heart is like, man, you got a great heart. He just wasn't always in the right situation. And so I look at Mike Dean and I instantly jump up because when he say Georgia, I'm thinking Georgia didn't,

my mother lost that Minnesota, so everything's correlating now. So I wake up and I'm like, I start looking at the phone, I turn on TV and it's all over the news everywhere. So I instantly start throwing stuff out there, I realized what happened, I'm like, I'm angry now. Wake my daughter up, my wife come out, like, what's wrong? She's TV, I'm my daughter scared, like, so I'm just losing it.

I kind of did the same thing when I found out COVID, I just passed out. And so I'm just crying, I'm throwing something, trying just passed out. And so I'm just crying. I'm throwing something, trying to figure out what's going on. And I'm just sitting there because one thing about me, like, me and Georgia didn't talk every day, right? Georgia has its own life. I have my own life. You know, we wasn't some, we wasn't guys that we talked every day.

Or we, you know, we probably went a year or two without talking. But when I go to Houston and he's in Houston I know exactly where he is and I pull up on him and we start talking like we've been talking every day So that was our life and anything he needed, you know from when he was incarcerated to out of jail I've always looked out for him and his family So when it happened, you know I'm not thinking Dan This thing to be a big media spectacle. I'm not that's the last of this finna be a big media spectacle.

I'm not, that's the last thing in my mind is thinking about, oh this finna be all over the news, how can I get fame from this, or how can I be involved in this. I'm hurt, like I'm honestly crying man, like, man this is my boy, like how you choke my boy like that on TV, like I'm actually hurt, this is my twin, this is the only person on earth that looked that much like me That's not related to me Right and I'm like and I'm like damn so I'm just I'm just hurting to see him Then he cried all the stuff he cried for his mama. So during that time I Knew you know, I had a relationship where I didn't have a relationship with but I knew her his

Daughter's mother rock fan You know, I've been with them many times in the city and I knew he had a a daughter around my daughter, same age, so I'm just thinking about them. I'm not thinking about calling nobody in his family, duh, duh, duh, duh. So during that time, I get a call from her saying, Steve, I'm not comfortable with this situation with Ben Crump.

I need other representation, you know, that's gonna care about and do what's best for me and my daughter. You know, she's feeling like he's doing it for a media spectacle and not what's good for the family, right? And during this time, it's all kind of people coming in and saying that they're his kids and all kinds of stuff that he's bringing in. Find out, he only has one child. So that shows that how people was being money hungry and trying to get in for the wrong reason. I want to stay away from that.

And let me tell you how it's even more of a true example. That's why I always live on facts that I want to stay away from that. The dead happened. His nephew, Wu, who's the one who was speaking and talking at all the press conferences and moving with the family. He texted me the day it happened.

He DMed me and said, Stevie, the family needs you. I didn't even check it. And I'm glad I didn't because I didn't want to be, I didn't want to, I see people going in front of it and being in front of the cameras and do that for the wrong reasons. This was my real friend. I didn't want to do that. I had no, no, I didn't even want to be involved. You know, I was on the outside looking at this. So I'm glad I didn't want to do that. I didn't even want to be involved. I was on the outside looking this,

so I'm glad I didn't see that. And by Roxette reaching out to me, which is his daughter's mother, she was like, I need help. So I reached out to some lawyers I knew in Atlanta and plugged her with them. And I told her, I said, you do what you gotta do. But by that time, she was like,

what's the, I need you on my side. I need your help. I don't have nobody you know what I mean I've never been in this situation Could you please come be with me John? Could you please speak? You know, I never talked in front of no cameras No, like that. I need your help What else I was supposed to do so I jumped in front of it without without knowing what I was doing one thing I did know You're not gonna find a person on this earth that look more like him

And you're not gonna find a lot of times when this happens to to people minorities where they get killed by police stuff like that They don't have someone that's a celebrity at the world. No speaking up for them. I knew I had that to my advantage. So Bam It is what it is. You want me to be the face of it? Roxane you want me to stand speak with I do it. You know me to be the face of it, Roxanne, you want me to stand and speak with you, I do it. Not even thinking all the stuff I'm risking. I'm not even thinking that damn. I'm not even thinking that, but this is how God works. I had, now that I know I didn't have to worry, but as you see the whole time showtime never went against me because they know my heart. They knew me. The people that know me, know me, never question me.

So that felt good that I never got questioned by the people I'm working with, you know what I'm saying? Because they knew my heart. And I was getting death threats. They'll probably get a death threat text with somebody saying, George Floyd is a fifth in all addict. You and him should die to this day, right? Because there's so many people that never hate,

but doing that process, I saw so much. him should die to this day, right? Because there's so many people that never would hate, but doing that process, I saw so much, you know, I saw hate, but it was coming from everywhere. I can't, I can't name one race that it didn't come from. It came from my own race because it wasn't them up there. Being the face, you know, you got activists that do this stuff every day that dive at his moment to be in front of the camera. They mad because it ain't them. Then you got people who really hate black people who really want to see us dead. I'm getting hate from them.

I'm getting hate from people who who think that just because I'm standing up for my black brother that I hate every other race. I'm dealing with the hate from all that. So during that time, you know, I'm like, okay I'm getting love from all races, but I'm getting hate from all races too. You know I'm saying what I know how it's still my whole life I started something called love for all who have love for all and I start putting the color every emoji on my page Damn, it switched overnight It switched overnight the support from everybody. Just because you don't know how I stand, I shouldn't have to go through this to show you how I want that I stamp on what's right and what's right only. I shouldn't have to come out there and show you that I love everybody. If you knew me, if you was with me during my life,

I've told somebody from every race that I loved them and mean it. That's why when I came out with the love for, it wasn't no hesitation, it wasn't a thought, it wasn't something that I did up, it did somebody else gave me? No, this is how I really feel. And I was able to do this and get some justice for George Floyd, trust me.

We had a lot of change during that time, but nothing's changed. It's been a, it was still 100,000 police killing since then. You know what I'm saying? So many, so nothing's really changed, but... It felt like it at the time. No, it felt like a movement. A big shift.

It felt like a big shift, and I'm glad I had a partner. But for, and then I never call myself an activist I Would never disrespect the real activists who spend their full life Dedicating this stuff to the betterment of human kind of mankind So I would never put myself but at that time at the same time I Was putting up a situation this this situation That either you the barbecue or meal do Without a game plan without a blueprint. So whatever happened during that time

It woke me up, but I was also learning a lot too because I Was learning I formed a lot of relationships because I was learning I formed a lot of relationships with people during that time that came and heard me speak to see the real me not what I was speaking on not the subject I was speaking on but the person and and when everything I'm sacrificing and willing to stand up here for everybody to understand that it's not rocket science for us to be all together. It's not fucking rocket science. They might make you think that But the hardest thing it takes so much effort in and I've seen this from the situation then it takes effort It takes planning to demean somebody and hate on someone to try to destroy someone it takes effort

It takes no effort at all to say how you doing, bro? Open the door. Have a good day. That takes no effort at all to say, how you doing, bro? Open the door. Have a good day. That takes no effort. That's why I say it's not rocket science. That's why I say I'm first team all come and sit because I understand that. And if a lot of people would understand that it's not hard to respect somebody, to love somebody from another race, and if you can't see me as pro black as I am, willingness to win on the stand that way and say it then I think people are just

They digested so much hate that is impossible is impossible for them to throw it all up, but I wasn't raised that way What do you feel like you learned from all of that? I learned that you can't save everybody you can't help everybody and You can't help everybody. You can't help everybody. And that was my biggest thing to take from it. You can have the best heart, Dan. You can go out your way and try to do all you can to help everybody that you feel need help, but it's still going to be those certain people in the background that's going to come

behind you and kick the person that you tried to help. You know what I'm saying? It's going gonna always be that. So I understand, I learned from that, that I can't save the world then. I can't help everybody. But the person who Stephen Jackson is, I can leave with that. And whatever people get from me, I'm fine with it. But with seeing what happened to Georgie for the world to see and people still have a certain aspect of hating just to hate. I don't understand how the stuff that's going on this world is not just talked about. It's not just myth. It's not in history books. You're seeing it with your own eyes. And if you don't have no compassion, that says a lot about you.

As someone who tries to be about love all the time, how did it feel to be accused of spreading hate yourself by appearing to cosign some things that Deshaun Jackson did that were clearly, clearly anti-Semitic? Yeah, you know what? Then I'm so, that's why I'm glad, you know, you're the one of the best of posing questions. I'm in New York right after that happened, right? And it's funny. And that's why I say, you can't save everybody. I'm walking up the street, it's like probably 12 o'clock in the night, and some Jewish kids walking by.

I was like, man, why you coastline the Sean Jackson on that map? I got love for you, man. I watch your show. I say, bro, everybody won't get this opportunity, but we're here for a reason tonight. And I pulled up my phone. I showed him the conversation with me and DJ. He sent me a text saying about what the team was doing to him, and there was somebody's contract.

It wasn't even about what he said, whatever article he quoted, right? So I showed him, and I respond to him, I say, I'ma speak on the way they handlein' you. He read the article and he's like, bro, why haven't you showed this? Why haven't you showed the world? I said, bro, because I didn't know who I am. Why would I have to explain something if you knew the story of Josh Passner?

You know I'm not anti-submitted. So I don't have to address stuff when I know it's not true. He's like, bro, you need to show the world at bro because everybody think, I'm like, bro, I don't care what people think. I care about what people who love me, who I care about think and know and all the people that's Jewish that I love that know me. I guarantee they somewhere on social media or somewhere taken up for me. So that situation was good for me because everybody will get a chance to see my fault or to see what actually happened in real time. You know, people so worried

about being first and being right these days. They have run with an article just to put it out there but not what happened in real story. Yes I defended Deshaun because I felt like Raleigh Cooper said the n-word all on social media at the concert. He got a contract extension after that. Deshaun brought that up about how they handled, well to them, how they handled Riley Cooper, how they handled his situation, so he felt a certain way. I felt like, you know, that is wrong. You handled him the same way you handled Riley Cooper dealing with contract situations. I didn't speak on nothing about the article or none of that stuff because I'm not no historian.

You don't see me post articles of quotes from historians or articles of books. I'm not a reader like that. So that's never been me. So trying to put me in that box, I didn't, I wasn't buying it. I know who I am. So, but it was tough dealing with it because, you know, people are always going to go with what they read and not go with the truth. So I'm glad I'm able to answer this question because I never really spoke about it.

But I didn't get no call from Josh Passing. Yeah, but a lot of people would say, okay, so he has a Jewish friend. That's like somebody saying, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right friends, therefore I'm not racist. But how else can you, how else can you give an example of not being anti-Semitic without saying

that you have a relationship with a Jewish person? Is no other way. Well, there are other ways. Give me one. I mean, that you're not anti-Semitic by being by coming out and flatly saying that I am not in any way. I've never showed... You shouldn't have to defend yourself when you've never showed a sign of being anti-Semitic. You see what I'm saying?

I don't have to defend myself because I've never said anything anti-... It's a show that I was a sign of an anti-Semitic. You see what I'm saying? I don't have to defend myself because I've never said anything anti, it's a show that I was a sign of being anti-Semitic. So that's why I never defended myself. I want to segue here into something that I would like to show you because I don't think that people have done this with you. I think that there was a time that you did some of this. You've had a conversation

with Ron Artest about this and you've done some of this with Matt Barnes. And so you helped me where I'm hitting sensitive areas that you don't want necessarily hit. Because when I saw you do this with Matt somewhat, you looked like you were uncomfortable sort of recreating the video that I'm about to show you now from the malice at the palace where you, you can take us through here the play by play, some context I should give the people here before we start on details I don't think they know here. And first of all, Ben Wallace, feared by all,

respected by all. And respected by me. I had just lost both of his parents. Yes. So he's grieving. Ron Artest is not looking for the fight here. He is not looking for an argument, and he has been told by mental health therapists

to get out of situations to trigger him. And so he lays on the table here and isn't being an asshole, correct? He is he is trying to separate his things to what his therapist told him. He is trying to separate himself from this situation and then it just keeps escalating and escalating and escalating. So I knew Ben lost somebody but I know his parents. We knew because he almost didn't play that game. Yeah, so he's well in the conversations that we just had about grief You can understand how because I want to circle back on some of the things that you were talking about

I think you said you passed out when Kobe died from your anger It was no, I didn't pass out without I responded the same way with just throwing stuff and just I left out the house And just took off walking like I just spammed I lost it because We'll get we'll get back to that in a second. But so how things escalate, you're surrounded by pain customers and at some point here, Ron our test gets hit with a drink.

So take me through this from your perspective, what it is that you're seeing and what it is that you're remembering here. To this, right at this point, pause. Can we pause? Yeah, pause that real quick, at this point, pause, can we pause it? Yeah, pause that real quick. At this point, so right now, Ron has come on the table. His therapist told him when something happens like that during the game, go somewhere, lay

down, or you know, just try to put some headphones on the blocker. He did exactly what they told him to do. But at this time, they've been, they've been just walking off, Ron has landed down, but the players on the other team, they been is walking off Ron is laying down, but it's the players on another team that's still talking and still pushing and stuff. So during that time, I walk around, just y'all, y'all little bit of a head, but I walk around and I pull out my jersey and square up with Rip Helmetson and Lezzy Hunter. Rip Helmetson is a friend of mine. That's this, this is a good friend of mine. I just told him we was a McDonald's game together. So but it's just

a rivalry at the time. So we willing to go at each other. You did pull out of mine. I just told him we were playing a McDonald's game together. But it's just a rivalry at the time, so we're willing to go at each other. You did pull out the shirt. I'm not squaring up. I'm squaring up. If that's what y'all want to do, we're trying to break it up, but y'all still talking. So let's fight. That's what we're going to do. You were the only one who pulled out his jersey though and squared up. I need to be. I need to be. If we're just what we about to do, right? So I've seen that that's what it really it was. They really didn't want to fight, you know, so I'm glad because I didn't want to have that bad blood with real, I love real bad.

That's my real friend. And so I end up going back to, like by Ron, and by that time, as I'm going back, the beer comes and now you can play the tape. Ron goes first. I'm right behind him. But as you see, pause it, pause it, pause it. As you see, this is another reason why I should get my money back. If I was going in the stands, just throw punches, it's a hundred people that I jumped past that I could have punched. I went up, I'm about eight, nine rows. I didn't hit nobody on my way up there. I didn't push anybody.

If going up what, you're going to see go, if go up what you gonna see me. I go straight to run to grab run. I don't punch nobody. I'm on my way to grab run. Look, I grab him. Oh, he threw it. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. The one as I get to run, I put my hand on him.

I got those another beer in his face. I'm like, come on, bro. All bets off at that. You ain't finna get away with that. And that's when I was forced to throw that punch. It wasn't, it wasn't I was going up there to punch people. All bets off that's that. You ain't finna get away with that. And that's not, I was forced to throw that punch. It wasn't, it wasn't I was going up there to punch people. I coulda went up there. I coulda punched people on the first four or five rows.

I'm going up there to help my teammate cause my coach is going, my coach got him. Yeah, that's where it happened. You're the first one there. I'm the first one there. And as you see, like, I was really going to finish. I was gonna go stump him out. But they grabbed my jerseys and my teammates grabbing which I'm glad they one there and as you see like I was really going to finish I was gonna go stump him out But my they grabbed my jersey my teammates grab which I'm glad they grabbed because I was I was gonna hurt that dude

I was with it because I was that I'm gonna put out the right now I'm not at the I'm not in Detroit. I'm in for all the Texas at the club right now And I'm in survival mode as you see take the everybody I'm gonna survive a mode, but what everybody grabbing me though well They know who's dangerous there everybody's grabbing well, but because you're the most in rage and Furthermore, I brother see look my brother see came my she came see came up there slowly to get me out the stands He came up there solely to give me out the stands you you're saying you were going up as peacemaker right up until you see a drink Right in his face, but it's don't lie.

But it's don't lie. That's why when they came down so hard, I'm like, bro, I didn't... He was assaulted twice and y'all didn't say nothing about neither of us. So if I'm wrong and you finding me $3 million for defending my team and after it's clear that this guy threw a beer at his face, I know what this is. It's not about right or wrong. I did think one of the things I've said this is, it's not a by-law to roam.

I did think one of the things I've said this before on our show that was fascinating to watch is that immediately after this fight, the coverage of the media at ESPN primarily which is what I was watching, was pro player. It was the customers shouldn't do that and then the following morning all of that changed in a way that I'm like somebody made a call here. Somebody didn't like the way that was being talked about. And then the whole story shifted because all I heard was people defending players. Mike Torrico was on air. The fans, they're thugs. It was solely about the fans. The next morning, we can drag,

oh, we like, hold up, bro, we was at work. Oh, y'all not gonna talk about them throwing stuff at the bus when we leave, and y'all ain't gonna bring up none of that. Oh, we know what this about. This is about the business of basketball. This is about black athletes with all this money should be acted like this.

We trying to change the dress code and change this shit anyway, you know what? We gonna use them as an example. That was dead ass wrong. And they know they're wrong. And that's why I'm glad that the documentary came out by no response from them. Or he would try to fix this shit

when they see how wrong the league was. That shows exactly how they stand on that side. Have you come to grips? I know we started with some of this because it seems bittersweet. This is, you're one of the few people your age who could be on the on the cover of what up the All the smoke is and you know be with your arms crossed still at your age and everyone knows that It comes with a street credibility and a loyalty the person that is there

Everyone knows feels like they know what he's about but they know this much about what you're about if this is all they're using They don't that's not even 10% The the the the lawyer part of me. Yeah, you see that on me. You see uh, that i'm a solid guy But i'm so much more than it and you know what dad? I don't care if People that Don't matter to me look at a different way. I don't but because I don't come in contact with you You're not in my daily life. I care about the people. I'm around I care about the people I work with

I care about the people that I'm willing to do things for and reach out to and do give back I'm care about those people because that means something to me Because I'm around you because I'm we we cross to everything I want you to know that you have a lawyer person around you I want you to know that you have somebody that's going to speak up for you the same way I talk about you the same way when you not around I want you to know you have to that I am consider myself the most solid guy ever I want you to know that's where I stand but if you don't if you're not around me I'm not going to put in that effort to let you know how

great I am. Because it doesn't matter. The people around me need to know that. And that's how I live my life. Is it something that has its scars on you still? Am I reading too much into it when I say, the interview I saw with you and Matt talking about this, it seemed like you were withdrawing into yourself. I say the interview I saw with you and Matt talking about this it seemed like you were withdrawing with drawing into yourself I'm still pissed I feel like at this moment they need to be watching me you talk about it and be

like you know but we give me y'all money back refund just it's just that simple is that it is no way that they should have took three million dollars for me for that when I was at work. I was at work. I wasn't in the club. I wasn't just being a thug. I was defending my t- the, the, the tape shows everything. Okay. If I were to jump over the first row and start punching fans right there, yeah,

kicking my delete, then I did. I was not that person at all. So they was trying to paint a total picture of me and Ron. They couldn't really do it with jail, you know, cause, cause jail has jail was all stars. One of the best players in the league and jail, jail wasn't in trouble. Jail wasn't that type of guy. Stand up guy. You respect him on the court, but he wasn't that type of guy. So they cleaned it up with him. They, they, um, dropped his games. I think they're like five or something like that.

But they upheld it with me and raw for some reason. I know the reason now because the picture they wanted to paint and what happened happened after that? Dress code. All that other stuff. So I knew what they was doing. We just gave them ammunition to do it quicker. What do you do with your anger? You've said now a couple of times that you retreat from your wife and go be angry by yourself. You throw things. There seems to be, I've always, I've learned, I've repressed anger most of my life. I would say the last four or five years I've seen anger make an appearance. I'm uncomfortable with it and I've had to learn that all anger is really is information. It's data for me and there's stuff on

the other side of anger that I can learn. If you're stopping though at just anger, at just throwing things and now the release, but I'm not going to examine what happened there, like how in control are you of your anger and where it leaks out? I'm more in control of my anger than I've ever been in my life because I don't let it consume me, right? I used to let something that I'm mad about weigh on me for weeks, can't get nothing done, don't want to talk to nobody, I'm pissed off by that, I of that, I'm not like that no more. My friends will tell you, I'm to the point now where I don't put myself in positions to be angry.

I don't put myself in positions or places where something can set that off. I've buried Wacko Jacko a while back. That's what you know That's what Al them Baron Davis know. I'm coming wacko jacko. I don't even want I don't even want to see that person So what I do now is I Work I'm great at worrying about things I control Right Jim Gray told me Jack a lot of times you think about something don't hit sin I'm in control now. I don't hit sin when I want to say something. When I'm somebody say something to my face or I see something that's being wrong, I know how to handle it now without just lashing out. If something happened on

the set, normally I go, stop right, hold up, what the fuck you doing? Man, I got it. You know what I'm saying? So like, I've grown. I've grown and I'm happy to say that. I've never been more controlled of my anger than I am now. And I'm so proud to say that. Wearing how did you bury Waco Jacko? I buried Waco Jacko by knowing that I was hurting the people that I provide for when I was hurting myself. That's when I was, for example, when I first got divorced and I was

going through my divorce and all that, it was something that I needed to do for my daughter and I couldn't do it because my bank accounts and all that stuff was frozen, because I was going through a divorce and stuff and they didn't want to keep tabs on all my money and stuff. And I couldn't do it. And the only reason I was in that position is because I wasn't being the man

I was supposed to be to my wife. My selfish acts were hurting people that I cared about. That's just a little situation. But so I made corrections and I've grown and made adjustments to my life, changes for the better. But I was, I was racially forced to do it for the people I love. And that's why I love having responsibility.

Because if it was just about me then, I'd be in the club party and drinking, ruining my life because that's fun to me. That's what I enjoy. But the best way for me today to be in control of my anger, I smoke a lot. I smoke and cannabis has helped me since I was 12 years old. And we are going to talk about it, but cannabis has helped me a lot in my life. And also this is another thing too. Praying five times a day.

So I can be angry, but I got to pray in a couple of hours. I can't go into prayer angry and I don't come out of it, so it's really hard for you to piss me off and say something to me that's gonna last. You know what I'm saying? It might last for a couple minutes, but either I block it out or I gotta pray. But when I go out to my prayers, it ain't nothing negative.

And then when I come out of it, I'm ready for whatever the next problem is. So those two things, cannabis and praying a lot, definitely helps me. I don't think it's, to be honest, I'm gonna say this, Dan, it's no human being that can help me. It's no human being that can help me. Because at the end of the day, I know what's best for me and I look in the mirror every day and know I'm not perfect and know what I'm doing wrong and I deal

with it. So if you can't look in the mirror and make adjustments by you telling yourself how you think that you're gonna actually take heed to something somebody else tell you, right? I look in that mirror Dan and I deal with everything in real time. I don't make up nothing. The stuff I'm dealing with in my life, Brian and Matt are telling you. I share with them. I'm an open book, but I deal with it head on. If I can deal with my problems, if I can find solutions and not put them on somebody else

or feel like somebody else has to give me an answer to them, it works for me. And it keeps me in control of everything. And, but goes back to the prayer and cannabis, I think that's the biggest thing that keeps me from even paying attention to stuff I don't control. Two very different things. So tell me what cannabis does for you and take me through what it is becoming Muslim did for you and take me through what it is becoming Muslim did for you. I think for me a lot of stuff I was taught as a youngster as being a Christian I don't believe as

a dope right. It's a lot of stuff that I'd have read from my own that I know you know that for me I don't believe and during the George Floyd time maybe it's the footage that you could put up 2003 when we won the championship. I say I want to thank Allah. I wasn't a Muslim then, but I was interested, right? And it's always been, I've always had Muslim friends, my friend, my y'all, I went to elementary and high school where he was a Muslim. I used to be around him all the time. So I've been around that religion a lot.

During the George Floyd time, I was really in a space where I was not learning, but I was open to understanding. Because I was trying to be the face for all racers and being, speaking for equality for everybody trying to be the face for all races and being, speaking for equality for everybody. And with standing up for my black home boy, who was murdered by a white guy, you know, I'm just trying to figure it,

I'm just trying to figure it all out. So, and, and, and during that time, you know, I was, I was open to, to learning and to understanding a lot of things. And I knew that a lot of things that I was taught growing up wasn't true as a adult, a lot of stuff. And so I went to learn for myself and I started studying and I was interested

in the religion for the simple fact that all the people that was Muslims that I knew stood on what was best for black people. And that's something that I cared about. Also, when I started getting more and more to the religion, I understood that you're gonna be criticized by your own religion, whatever religion you in. I understood that because not everybody's gonna agree with me being a grown-up Christian and becoming a Muslim

So before I even became was I knew that I was gonna deal with a lot of backlash to that because everybody got their own Opinions of what you should be right? Everybody got their own opinion of what you should be or how you should live your life But for me it was it was it wasn't nothing that I planned right I woke up one morning I had been reading the Quran. And I got a lot of friends in Philadelphia. A lot of friends like my second home. And I called my friend, Tony Chopin, I'm like, you know what, bro, I want to take my Shahada today.

I feel like, you know, it's the time for me to, to start getting deeper in my religion and to understand it. Also, for me, before I became Muslim, I tell people this all the time, people say, how do you live your life, Jack? I live my life every day to show God that I deserve everything He blessed me with, because I know that I don't deserve it. And He's still blessed me. I'm here with you. We just signed a new deal. He's still blessed me. So I wake up every day to show God I deserve it, right? So, and he's still blessed me. I'm here with you, we just signed the new, like he still blessed me. So I wake up every day to show God

I deserve everything he blessed me with. So God, take him out to Shohada, it was something that I wanted to do because I knew it would, in some ways it will force me to become better. I never stopped smoking in my life. I stopped when I became a Muslim and it gave me a lot of clarity. Every year I got to stop doing Ramadan. That's the most

clear minded month I have. So it's so many positives from being a part of the religion that's helping me not dead. I ain't supposed to smoke with being a Muslim. It's a lot of it, but I'm not trying to be perfect and The people that's involved in the religion, they don't judge me. They understand it's a marathon not a sprint So I'm doing what's best for me. I know my heart is in the right place And I know I'm not perfect and I know I'm not the I'm not the mascot of Muslims, right? I'm not the Muslim you should follow but I am Muslim and I'm honored the mascot of Muslims, right? I'm not the Muslim you should follow, but I am Muslim and I'm honored to say that.

And I think it's definitely helped me as far as me processing things during the course of the day. Like I said, I don't think it's impossible for me to stay mad, but it also puts me in a state of focus where I'm constantly asking for strength and understanding to be greater than things I got going on. I don't think I can get that from talking to somebody. I have to be able to close my eyes, Dan, and really go somewhere else to put myself in the mind frame that I can continue to be great. Because the world has been telling me for so long

that I ain't shit. Your life has been a sprint though. It's been survived day to day to day. So five times of prayer and discipline to slow your life down, the serenity of that must be helpful to just slow your life down. Coming here,

been able to be in the hotel last night and just look out the balcony, smoke and just relax, I can't tell you the last time I done that. That's why I woke up this morning just wanted to rejuvenate it. So when I get the time to do that, I take advantage of it because I put myself out there for a lot of people that I care about. I'm going 110 miles power, but at the end of the day, I'm going the right direction. Seems like you've got a lot on you though.

It seems like. It's, you know, I'm still, I'm still correcting wrongs from 15, 20 years ago. Dan, and I ain't complaining. I did it to myself. You know what I'm saying? But I have the opportunity to correct them and I'm sitting in that. I'm not worried about what I done I'm able to correct them. I'm sitting here with a war witness show

I'm sitting there just doing a deal with you guys and draft in metal. I could drive like I'm not gonna sit in that. Yeah, I made those mistakes. Yeah, I've done that But I'm not that person today whether you believe it or not. That's fine. I know why I'm it well Grateful instead of regretful. Yes, great one instead of regret. It's a huge deal The cannabis though since 12 years old, what does it do for you? Does it soften? Does it just slow your mind down?

How does it help? So growing up, in my home wife, my little brother said, I'll tell you, cannabis kept us in the house. We'll smoke, go play the game, stay in the house. It kept us in the mind frame to stay away from the bullshit because it's hard to get away from. And when I say this to people, they get to understand me, get to know me more.

I smoked my whole career there. And when have you ever heard anything about me getting suspended for games, getting pulled over with it in the car, or the rest of it? Never, right? I smoke more than anybody. You know why I haven't? Because I don't smoke to be seen. I'm not smoking to be helped. It helps me relax. It helps me deal with my day to day. It helps me deal with things because sometimes

I do get frustrated and I'm real passionate, damn. So as a kid, yep, it helped me stay away from things. It helped me stay in the house. It helped me, you know, be more relaxed and enjoy life. I'm always happy. But as an adult, it helps me escape. It helps me, you know, be more relaxed and enjoy life. I'm always happy. But as an adult, it helps me escape. It helps me understand things. It helps me relax. It helps me sleep. You know, I don't take medicine. I'm not going to, I'm hardly sick.

Thank God I'm hardly sick. I contribute that to cannabis because it relaxes me. I've never had any surgeries or injuries because I'm always relaxed. I'm always in a good space and I feel like if I was taking pain kills and all that stuff, my body be all messed up right now because I played with broken, I played with a broken toe for three years and my only medicine was cannabis. So it works for me and I tell people all the time, do what works for you. You know what I'm saying?

It might not work for everybody else but it works for me and it puts me in the place where I can, I'm high right now, damn. You didn't even know. Nobody knows. I do everything this way. You know what I'm saying? But it works for me. And I think everybody has to find out what works for them. How do you play three years with a broken toe?

One, I just got to the team. Two, we start playing well. Three, I was trying to get an extension. So those three reasons. Your pain threshold must be pretty extraordinary. I ended up having to have that it was all kind of so when when I ended up looking at the bottom of my foot, it was the bone that broke. So it was like five pieces of sharp bone stuck in my tendon, like knives. So every time I run, I jump everything. I did that for three years. He couldn't understand how I did it.

I say, if you knew what was at stake, you would have. If you knew what was at stake, you would have. I worked too hard to get here. You know what I'm saying? I knew I'd get it. You know, if I could get played with it, it'd still be successful. I'd get through it. But it was just something I had to do at the time.

What was at stake? I mean, I know, but through your prism. My career, my extension, and what I'm trying to build is shake off. You know, the brawl, the shooting, I'm trying to build is shake off. You know, the brawl, the shooting, the strip club, I'm trying to shake all that off. I want people to see my basketball because I am a good basketball player. I can play with anybody.

And I was getting the chance, I was the captain of the team and Don Nelson was basically showing that you're the guy, you know what I'm saying? You know, Baron Davis was the best player, but I was the captain. When people believe in you, they don't lose you, huh? It's the dip.

And I say this all the time, and that's why I'm forever loyal to him. Like, for somebody to believe in you and appreciate you as the best feeling in the world. I'm coming off. As soon as I get here, I'm getting suspended seven games. I'm gonna shoot out of the strip club, and you make me a captain?

He brazed. Let me tell you all that. I'm there a couple of days. Jack, me and Coach, or Rilaar Riley at the time, was this guy, meet us at this bar, LaHolla, New Orleans, play some shuffleboard. Fuck shuffleboard. I don't know what shuffleboard is.

How many black people know what shuffleboard is? Do you know what shuffleboard is? Yes, I know. All right, so I had no idea what it was. We go to, we playin' okay, there's little balls, you hit off's up with it? Yes, I know what it is. Alright, so I had no idea what it was. We go to, we playin' okay, there's little balls, you hit off the thing, right? And stand on the table all that, like cool. He gets this pissy drunk. We drink like two bottles of scotch.

Me, him and BD, Baron Davis and Larry are taking shots. He don't talk about basketball the whole time. The whole time he plans to shoot the shit, talking about guys on the team. Sit down at the bar, we take our last shot. He's down to my, we all, on something about to fall down. Alright guys, had a good time. Just wanted to bring you here to tell you guys your captains and walk out. And we sit there like, man, be like, all this and all this and tell them we're captains

and we wasted, bro. So but that whole thing like that, that resonated to me. Bringing me to a bar, you know, and leaving like that, like that's everything to me. I don't want the long out, broad smoke of my ass, I don't want that. Get me drunk and leave and say,

Jack, you're the captain. That's me. I needed that, right? I walked out of there and say, Jack, you the captain. That's me. I needed that, right? I walked out of there and wasted, but the middle smile on my face, like this is the winning it at this point. He was the winning this coach of all time at that point. The most wins of all coaches,

that's believing in me to be a captain after what I'm coming. I'm surprised he didn't smoke with you. I would have thought that that's what he was. He didn't spy with us smoking. He didn't care we smoked. He gave us a five when we came out taking our last drug test cause you know we didn't have to hide it no more.

Darn was our guy. He even told a hotel to put fans on our floor. You told I think, Darn was my guy man, but for him to believe in me, you know I didn't want to let him down. You know what I'm saying? I didn't want to let my brothers down because you know Al, BD, all those guys I grew up with,

you know what I'm saying? Monta was a real little brother. We were all in each other's weddings. I didn't want to let my brothers down because you know Al BD all those guys I grew up with you know I'm saying my say was a real little brother. We were all in each other's weddings. I don't want to let them down either So, you know, I had to push through it What's the most fun you ever had in a season those eight seated warriors that seemed like fun from a from afar the The eight seed that beat the one the Mavericks you had the championship season this I mean if you've got this kind of foot pain while being the captain for someone who believes in you which where do you look at the 17 years and say that what that wasn't was the best season my happiest and funnest year was

definitely Golden State my best basketball playing year was Charlotte I should have made the all-star team that I brought that team from nowhere to in the playoffs. So playing wise, definitely Charlotte, but the most fun, the happiest I've ever been, the most enjoyment I had playing basketball on and off the court. Not even close, going to stay by far. Why was that? Because we showed up to practice together. We left practice together. We went to dinner together. We went to the strip clubs together, we went to family meetings together, we did everything together. Everything. And to the point where we had the management of that team, using some of our slang words to address each other. So we were a real family. Like I said, I don't think you'll ever find a team where you got four or five guys that all got married

and they all had each other's widens. You probably can't name a team that's that close. You've mentioned the strip club incident a couple of times. This one sticks to you too, the idea that you're the guy who shoots off a gun outside the strip club in a fight. You feel like that one's on you. It's I mean, it's on it's on me because I should have known from the broad that everybody don't respond. How they don't come from where I come from. Like I'm automatically thinking.

Somebody on my side, I think it hurt and I got to go all out to make sure it don't happen. And you know, it's? Since that, since that, since it happened, I've actually talked to people on Instagram that was actually there. So I've heard 20 different stories, because once I get here by the car, I don't think people know the story. Or maybe not know the entire story.

Okay, so with this training camp, guys wanna hang out before the season starts. Me, as a guy named Snaphunter, was trying out for the team at the time. Me and him are real close. My wife and his wife at the time were best with close. So we were hanging out with them all day shopping, you know, getting ready for the season to start.

I haven't seen my teammate all day. Team mates all day. Al calls me like, bro, the team going out, we all going out, just a little team camaraderie for the season start. I'm like, bro, I'm tired, man. We were shopping with the wives all day. Like, nah, bro, come. You know, you don't come.

You've gone hard of the team. Like, so I'm like, cool, I'll tired, man. We were shopping with the wives out. They're like, nah, bro, come. You know, you don't come. You've worked hard on the team. Like, so I'm like, cool, I'll come. So me and him go out. We meet them at the strip club. I go on the strip club and didn't have one drink. Nobody's drinking. A couple guys drink, but I'm not drinking.

And not even smoking at the time because we begin the season to get drug tested. So I'm clear of mind. We in there, we having a good time. Like I said, I was with my wife all day. So really, I'm not even in partying. I'm tired. You know what I'm saying?mind. We in there, we having a good time. Like I said, I was with my wife all day. So really I'm not even in partying. I'm tired, you know what I'm saying? We both exhausted, but I'm in there chilling with.

So Al says I'm finna go to another spot. I'm like, bro, yeah, I'm going home. I'm tired. So as we're leaving out the club, I hop in my car. Al's pulling out, he makes the left out a lot. I'm pulling up to the lot to make a left out and go the same way with him. But as I'm pulling out, Jamal Tilly is coming out this thing go the same way with him But as I'm pulling out Jamal Taylor is coming out of the club some guys are like running behind it

so Hey, if I was selfish Today me because I went on home could have read about it the news whatever I ain't suspended. I'm good I got my job. I could easily been that guy there. That ain't in me. I ain't that selfish Grunt we had we I just got my gun lights at the time so one thing about being in this situation if a fight's about to break out and guys are surrounding you to the point where you are getting surrounded by guys you got to make a quick you got to do something

quick or you're gonna get punched from behind and you getting stumped out you know I'm saying cuz somebody's gonna hit you you ain't gonna know where it's coming from. So before that happens, I let off a couple shots to get everybody away from us. Bop out, because I see that there's more guys around JT than, you know, that's coming towards out the door. So I let off a couple shots and as I do that, we go to this, we have been to this club before, never had a problem.

So as I do that, security grabs me. He's like, man, get out of here. Get in your car, get out of here. After the shots go off, and as he pushed me to my car, I instantly hear a car skirting out of parking lot. I mean, out of parking spot. And I turn around and I see the car. So the car's parking lot small.

So to me being in my right mind and not being inebriated in no type of way, I see the car, I can't get out the way. He coming too fast. He darted out and he got up to about 40, 45 miles power on the parking lot. So I see the car. I can't get out the way. He coming too fast He darted out and he got up to about 40 45 miles power in the parking lot So I see him coming. I know I can't get out the way. So me being in my right mind, which I'm glad I was I Jumped when the car got close to my turn and I jumped to where my back hit the hood So we just because if you did if I just stood there he would kill me just took my legs and kill me

So I kind of jump me been athlete I jumped in my butt and I landed down my butt landed on the car and my back landed on the wish you But the moment my car hit me in the air so I'm in there I land Boom as I'm hitting the ground my every time I hit the ground another two comes on boom boom teeth Just flying out my mouth and my lips are just shattered like I got debris my lips just tore all up. I wake up I Wake up out of it and the police has my teammates across the street. All handcuffs. Cause I guess he thought they was involved. I come up out of it.

Dad, this is the law you me. I come up out of it. No teeth in my mouth. Lips shattered with my hands in the air. I did it. They didn't do nothing. I did it telling the police get off my teammates. I'm still thinking about my teammates like I did the sales over this my god. I got the gun on my

holster. I'm like I got the girl right here. I did it. I'm so they can leave them alone. They put me in cuffs and they put me in more keys days than 100 cuffs. While we're in cuffs in the back of the car. I pass out again because I'm choking on blood. So I'm a country of the car choking on blood and all I hear is more keys days kicking the door because I guess again because I'm choking on blood So I'm a I'm a country to the car Choking on blood and all I hear is more keys day is kicking the door because he's I guess you think I'm either dying or whatever You know get like I ain't got no teeth. I got my lips are shattered So and I'm just sitting there in a like I'm gagging or whatever so he kicking the door So as he kicks the door I wake up I'm still accustomed like bro. What's going on ain't even know I was in a police car. Because of my adrenaline and the heavy, you know what I mean?

So as I'm trying, I'm coming out of it, they come and get us out of the police cars. And they bring us in the club, you know, they take our gun license. The sheriff's like, man, we know who y'all are, we know y'all not going nowhere, y'all can go ahead and go home. We'll talk to y'all team and stuff and figure all this out tomorrow. When I leave, by the time I leave, my cousins, all my boys that live with me were at the gas station with a million guns.

We about to go hurt somebody. And I'm in that mind frame too. I ain't gonna lie. Once they let me go, I don't feel nothing. I'm ready to, who did this? Where they at? What side of Indiana they on? My career is over.

We all at the gas station. That's why I love my Indiana they on? My career is open. We all at the gas station. That's why I love my Indiana team. Everybody pulled up with guns, ready to have my back. But my voice of reason, he's been my voice of reason since high school. I always call him my voice of reason. Every time we out, I'm about to do some crazies. I always my voice of reason. I'm me conversation geeked up. Where they at? Oh, low, no, you know where they at? I'm ready. Jermaine O'Neill, he stopped me. He's like, bro, I feel you. I know you mad, dawg.

I know you. I've been knowing you my whole life. But bro, you gotta go to the hospital. I'm looking at your mom, bro. You gotta go to the doctor. Soon as he said that, all the pain instantly kicked in. Because when he said it, it relaxed me.

I kind of calm like my genus. And I'm talking about, damn, it felt, felt like my face is about to fall off. So I ended up going to the hospital. I had to have plastic surgery on my mouth for two hours with no anesthesia. They couldn't add anesthesia cause my lips were so swollen. If they

added some, my lips would have burst. They had to fly an emergency surgeon in to do plastic surgery on my lips. So I had to take skin, get them cut off my lips, the breathe getting dug out my gums, all kind of stuff stitched all that with no anesthesia for two hours. The worst pain I've ever felt in my life. And I love Rick Carlisle. Rick Carlisle held my hand the whole time. Because when the doctor told me he couldn't numb me, I got scared.

I was terrified there, because it was so much pain. You mean to tell me I ain't got no skin on my face and you can't numb it? So Rick Carlisle held my hand, and I said that for two hours crying, fighting it. And after the last step on my lip, well, I got a scar as he put his hand on my chest like Mr. Jackson, I'm done. I'm sorry.

I'm so sorry. And I exhaled and I slept through x-rays, everything. I didn't wake up till I got home. Your life as a movie and your rage is a beast. The idea that you wouldn't even feel pain because you were so hell bent on vengeance and rage, it seems like a formidable animal that would be very hard to tame.

I was hurt because I didn't try to hurt nobody. I could have put the gun spread of him inside him. I didn't do that. But the fact that you tried to kill me, like I was definitely upset at that. Cause I, like he tried to kill me. He tried to kill me, you know what I mean? And I was definitely mad about it at the time,

but you know, my voice is reason. Say it again. Appreciate the honesty, appreciate the vulnerability. Tim Duncan has called you the ultimate teammate. I am happy that we are now teammates. So thank you for sharing this time with us. We will talk more. Thank you for giving me this platform to do it.

You probably didn't know, but you knew after we talked in New York that I needed this. This has been official. I couldn't wait to do it. I couldn't wait to get here. So I thank you for not only the partnership, but just the friendship and the understanding. And, you know, there's very few people

that I came across in my life that never judged me. They never just looked at, you know, the outside of it. You actually took time to care, to have a conversation, to understand me. And not many people do that. So, you know, I'm forever indebted to you as a brother and as a friend, man. And I just thank you for this platform

and be able to talk about this because it has helped me today. I'm just very eager to see what your growth becomes because I can tell, I mean, your passion is formidable and the idea that you want to do something else with the remainder of your life that shows people more of yourself. Like I just can't wait to see what that looks like.

Like, appreciate it. Thank you, my man.