The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - South Beach Sessions: The Best of The Voices of the NBA

Episode Date: March 29, 2024

The biggest moments, the excitement and heartbreak... when the players make it happen, the announcers make us feel like we’re there. "Best of South Beach Sessions: The Voices of the NBA" features the legendary broadcasters and analysts of the NBA sharing how the love of the game has led each of them to dream careers and lifetime friendships. Michael Wilbon, of ESPN and "Pardon The Interruption", never expected to be a pioneer in sports television and he lets Dan know damn well why. Ernie Johnson, beloved host of TNT's "Inside the NBA" expresses why the greatest gift for him has been the love that Charles Barkley, Kenny Smith, and Shaquille O'Neal all have for each other: "This is as close as I’ll ever come to having brothers. And that’s what they are to me." Mike Breen, the lead voice for the NBA on ESPN and ABC, shares how in the pursuit of perfectionism, the biggest mistake you can make is to be too afraid to make any. Rachel Nichols, longtime NBA reporter and host of "Headliners" and "Bully Ball with Rachel Nichols & Demarcus Cousins", recalls meeting Dan when they were both coming up in their careers and puts it all in perspective how far they’ve come. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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SAB, the CV. Copyright 2024. Proximo. Jersey City, New Jersey. Please drink responsibly. You and Tony showed me the way, showed me what could be possible. I'm 10 years older than you and that means Tony's 20. You know, Dan, first of all, that means a lot to come from you. It means a lot to come from the people that are in a group that are half, if a generation

is 20 and a half generation is 10, it means you and Stephen A. Smith and certain people that are exactly 10 years younger. We don't think of you guys as being younger, but you are. And if we showed anything, if we did anything that reveals some sort of humanity, my mother was a teacher, taught public school in Chicago for 35 years, so teaching's important. So that's a hell of a compliment. Thank you for saying that. I'm so grateful to you and Tony and Ryde Home and Kelleher and the entire environment that

you had around you, because it showed me what kind of environment I wanted around me. I tell people all the time it wasn't even the friendship of Tony and Mike that made me gravitate toward how I would do it in its evolution. It's what they had behind the scenes caring for them. The people taking care of their relationship and enjoying each other's company creating something. Like you guys really did birth, I'm not kidding you when I tell you that you guys watching you, because it was unstated, it's not like you were telling me,

holding me by the hand, saying here Dan. Guys don't talk about that stuff, right? No Dan, okay, but you know it comes, but there's another place where you got some of it, because you're the people 10 years younger than us, the last people to sadly get this, and it was the camaraderie, the engagement, the contention of the newsroom. And so ours is based on, you know, if you watch, if people are old enough to have watched Mary Tyler Moore and

the ensemble cast of Mary Tyler Moore and Ted Baxter and John Amos and of course Lou Grant and they were living breathing things newsrooms were they had a heart they were I missed that people say you miss writing now really I miss the newsroom but I know the newsrooms don't exist anymore not like they did for us and so Tony and I existed in the same newsroom and we took that down the street and Eric speaking to people, Eric's not quite 10 years younger, but but you know, you guys got the benefit of some of that. And yes, Tony and I, we needed it. It was mandatory to flourish in that kind of environment. So needed the sparks, needed people arguing, cursing at each other, creative bursts. Something that HR would not tolerate anymore.

We used to tell young people who came into the PTI newsroom in 20, so this is 2001, 2002, three, four, five, six, young people, interns, men and women, young men and women. Be careful of how Tony and Mike are yelling at each other. We're going to curse. We don't give a shit if you don't like it. If you don't like it, leave. Oh my God, can you imagine if people in Bristol knew that? That's what we did and we didn't care.

You know what? No one ever complained to our knowledge because it was a democratic place. It was a place where you could scream back. That's the magic of it, that everybody was sort of equal, no matter who got paid more. Everybody was pretty equal. Did you realize that you were pioneering? Did you realize that you were leading the way, giving sports writers permission to turn into characters on television? I would tell you why the answer is no. It's an actual concrete no. Because I grew up... Dan, I'm the weirdest creature in this way. People come to me and they say, Stephen A. Smith has told me this. We

work together every week on Countdown on ESPN. And he's told me, you know, people have said you were the first person I sort of saw. And then when I was in the profession already, you guys made this transition. Well, when I was a kid, a kid, I'm talking about 12, 14 years old, Brent Musburger did this in Chicago. He wrote for the Chicago Daily News and then Brent Musburger was on CBS with Jimmy the Greek and and Irv Cross and Jane Kennedy or and Miss America, I'm forgetting that. Phyllis George. and Irv Cross and Jane Kennedy or and and Miss America, I'm forgetting that George George So don't Brent Musburger covered the Bears and then he was on TV

So I was a kid and then there was a guy would bring it even closer to home for me a guy named Wendell Smith Wendell Smith was a black man an African American man in his I'm guessing 50s and 60s his widow just died and He was writing a column for the Chicago Sun-Times And he was on WGN at the same time when I was 8 and 10 years old So people I've had people come up to me in the last 20 years saying you were the first person I saw who looked like me who did this I saw people I saw someone Wendell Smith who looked like me and did both and crossed over and transitioned into television when I was 10. So 55 years ago. So no, I don't consider myself a pioneer. I saw people do this. I actually know one

of them, Brent Musburger is something of a mentor without ever being presumptuous enough. Brent Musburger, then I went to the same college. Went to Northwestern, Brent is Papa Wildcat. Brent is 80 plus at this point, right? So Brent's got at least 16, 17 years on me. Okay, you can cite other pioneers, but for me and for Stephen A. Smith, you were the guy. And I have, I know that factually, I get it.

I believe you guys. It's just, but you asked me if I thought of myself that way, God no. Well, you were too busy working and repressing general feelings that aren't supposed to be spoken out loud by sportsmen. Repressing. Yeah, sports cavemen.

But you, man, I remember your kindness, your grace, Michael, beyond just being nice to people walking through an arena, people slapping you on the back, and really seeming like someone who was grateful that anybody would think Michael Wilbon's words meant anything. Enough to make him a rock star, but beyond that You and Tony were so

Generous with your platform and you know as well as I do that that's not true of all of your sports writing peers with ego No, it's not true of all of our our colleagues. Which is too bad because we generally felt that way We generally felt that way I just think it's how I was raised There's no presumption. I I was raised by two people who fled the south post to post depression Who were part of the great migration from Georgia and Tennessee and general places in the South, but specifically for them, Georgia and Tennessee, my father and mother respectively,

to Chicago. And they were grateful for what they had, all of it, grateful every day. And you had to be grateful. And there was no presumption. There was no other way. And then I really believe that people from the Midwest use the phrase Midwestern sensibilities, that exists. And I know people from the East don't believe it, and people from the West don't even,

aren't even aware of what it is. Oh, but it's not just politeness. Hold on a second. There are plenty of people in this business, competitive people in this business, who would have been threatened. You have real confidence, but who would be threatened by the sharing of the stage. That it is mine, it is not, you had a seminal program that somehow still exists, okay, that has made its way

through the labyrinth of all ESPN things, isn't subject to cuts because you guys are now above cuts. Like you've got seniority. Let's hope. You are tenured. I got a kid in high school, I need to be above cuts. You are tenured at what it is that you do and from the very beginning you shared that with me and you didn't have to and you did it in a really loving way that made someone who was nervous feel accepted. Thank you for saying that. And Dan, it wasn't conscious. Just that's how, that's who we were.

Those were the conditions under which we came into the business and grew up and we were very lucky too, to have the people that shared what they shared at the New York Times and Newsday for Tony and the Washington Post and the Washington Post for me. They we just there's no I mean Bob Woodward and Ben Bradley were that way when we got to the Post so why wouldn't we be? Didn't think of it. The Watergate reporters were that way with Tony and Mike in the sport. Yes I remember I don't know why this came up recently, but it did Tony and I were talking about it on November 22nd 1988

Which would have been the 25th anniversary exactly of the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy Tony and I were on the fifth floor where the Washington Post newsroom famously was and we Were just thinking about the 25th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Well, his best friend was our boss, Benjamin C. Bradley, the great editor of the Post. And we decided to go up to his office and ask him if he would take us to lunch.

If we, like, I don't even know what got into us. Tony did most of the talking, I was too scared. And we went into Ben's office secretary said he's back there going and Ben Bradley people can picture Jason Robards if they need to Said you two look like you want something We said we'd like you Can we go to lunch? Why? well Today's he goes, of course he knows what today is.

And Ben Bradley took us to lunch for like three hours and told us stories. Pete Slauson Gruff old newspaper men, but you guys did bring journalism to what it – you guys brought – in changing the way sports television was done, you guys brought a journalistic sensibility that had a little bit of meet the press to it. Pete Slauson Yeah, and had also the crossfire Sensibilities of we're gonna argue but we love each other and the arguments aren't gonna mean anything and they're not gonna be phony They're not gonna be unlike crossfire which was completely phony or a lot of sports television these days

Yes, it is. But yeah, we yes we brought that sensibility because again, that's who we were I mean part of this anything that you're crediting us with and I'll speak for Tony now, too Is part it's who we were it's how we were trained. I went to what I think is the greatest journalism school in the world Northwestern's medill and I brought that training Plus I worked in one place for 30 years and six months the Washington Post. That's all I knew I knew how to go about news that way and sports that way and treat it like it was news, not like it was the toy section.

It wasn't the toy section. And I know where you grew up at the Miami Herald and I know people like Edwin Pope who helped shape my early life. They did. I know we were shaped by some of the same forces. And I know the people that you worked with like Greg Cody I Because I feel that that that there was a way that we were all taught to be at that point in the business

and I'm grateful for that and so I Take no credit though. I'm glad you offer it For sharing the stage the stage was to be shared. It wasn't mine. It wasn't mine to dominate. And I know what you're talking about. I won't name names and we know the same people who did not want to share. I don't care about them. Well, there are more, but there are more than, I found more of those in this business than I found people like you and Tony. You did more things and you went more places and you you had more interactions with people on that

level than we did you know I mean you know me I'm where I want to go to a gym on a Tuesday night. Whoa what are you listening to this for? Wait who's talking? You know you're driving a 2024 Ford Escape with available Alexa built-in, so you can change the music. Oh yeah, Alexa, change station to 99.2. See? Purchase a 2024 Escape ST-Line all-wheel drive with TechPak at 3.49% APR for 72 months with down payment. That's just $2.67 bi-weekly, cash value of $40,294.

Plus, eligible Ford owners get of $40,294. Plus, eligible Ford owners get a $1,000 bonus. For details, visit your local Ford store or Ford.ca. What? Welcome, by the way. Thank you, Dad. I just don't want you to be a humble guy here. Like what you do is hard and you can talk about it gratefully before God without poo pooing how hard it is to do what you do because I know they make it look easy. It is not as easy as you make it look. There's a lot of work and I love the work and I love the prep. And look, I appreciate everything you said

about the show and about my role. And there's not a day that goes by that I am not as thankful as I could possibly be about sitting in that chair for that long since I was hired in 1989 by Turner Broadcasting and had to sit out a six-month no compete clause because I had been working in local TV in Atlanta. So I just spun my wheels for six months, did a few stories and then it was the next season, 90-91 season, they said, hey, Craig Sager's gonna go on the road,

he's gonna be a sideline reporter, because Craig was in the chair. And so you're our NBA guy. And it was... I had no idea that I'd be sitting here in 2023 talking about this run in that role that was never in the cards and what's kept me there is is being prepared and that's the whole key to the longevity. Often without needing your colleagues to be as prepared because they're there for expertise.

And I know how much Charles hates those March Madness weekends where they make him memorize all the names because you're doing the preparation in a lot of ways, as is the, an unbelievable production team, so that Kenny and Charles and Shaq can be maximum themselves. It, the reason that I admire it, one of the many reasons I admire it so much

is because of how rare it is to be able to keep those spinning plates together and working together. When this is the vanity business, Ernie, like Shaq's used to being a star, Charles is used to being the star of that show. Kenny is used to being a facilitator who understands your role better than most. But they're... and the thing, you know why it's work? Because nobody tries to make

themselves the show. Because they've never tried to make the show about themselves. And I'm in the fortunate position of getting us from point A to point B to point C with three guys who have been in every conceivable situation in a basketball game and So nobody at home cares if what I think about what might be being said in the huddle with 1.7 seconds to go they want to hear from the guys who have been there and so it's up to me to try to bring out the best in in these three guys and and try to bring out the best in these three guys. And knowing your role is vital. If you try to stray outside your lane

and be something you aren't, then it doesn't work. And the fact that we don't rehearse, and the fact that we just let her rip, there you go. They have such reverence for your decency though. Those, I mean I've heard Charles speak about you, he doesn't speak about many the way that he speaks about you. Those guys would do almost anything for you and have. And I would do the same for them, we all would.

Well that's pretty unusual in television, isn't it? Yeah, you know TV, yes. And, but that's, I think that's what comes with years unusual in television, isn't it? Yeah. You know TV. Yes. But I think that's what comes with years of being together. And when you think about Kenny and I have been together the longest, because I used to do the show by myself. And then for a while, just here's Cheryl Miller for a while.

Here's Reggie Theis for a while. Here's Dick Versace for a while and then Kenny Comes along and and we have a pretty good thing going and then Chuck But we're the three of us for more than 20 years Have been doing this together which is unheard of in TV where the next TV executive always has a better idea Oh, no the these three guys will work. No, this two and to take him out and add him.

And then Shaq for the last dozen years. So when you have that kind of time together and you have that kind of a bond, then you just, I'm not signing it zappy here, we love each other. We really are, truly. And you know, I grew up with two older sisters, and this is as close as I'll ever come to having brothers.

And that's what they are to me. Do you tell them? Oh, all the time. Do they tell you? Yeah, yeah. And you know what? There was a moment, too, when Kobe passed. We did a show out in LA.

Right there in the middle of the floor, the game had been cancelled, but we were just going to spend that time talking about Kobe. And I remember Shaq on that night saying on the air that, I don't say this enough to you guys, but I love you and we and we do and I think one thing that that that whole moment in time Taught all of us was that you don't know You don't know how long you have and It behooves us to make sure That everything's cool between us.

Everything's cool not just between the four of us on the show, but between everybody in your life. That if the unthinkable happens, do you want to leave that with, man, I wish I had said this. Man, I wish I had. I wish that silly feud. I could have stepped up and defused it I wish I would have said this and I think that was a it was a pretty brutal reminder of that how important is love To any sensitive thing that happens because people are talking for six hours on television

a night and sparks are going to be caused and disagreements happen between siblings, friends and loved ones. There's not a bigger ingredient to why it is that it's successful than that, I mean, and that cuts right through the essence of what we do. And I mean, let's not get carried away with points in the paint and second chance points and fast break points and who's making this decision and why is this important. Keep it where it is. Sports is a great distraction from the real stuff because there's enough real stuff going on that that'll drive you crazy. And so I think it's really important that while this is my job and being in that chair

has been at the center of my professional life. Um, let's not forget what really matters. And, and because we're so familiar with it, with each other. And because there are times where tempers, I wouldn't even call it tempers. It's just where opinions differ and defenses are raised. Um, we're talking sports, you know. Oh, but I found Shaq unusually sensitive, not Charles. He is. But I found Shaq to be, I don't know Kenny this way, but I feel like Charles isn't terribly sensitive. Almost anything rolls off of Charles. You'd be surprised. How so? Because I think there are things that strike him that strike a chord with him that he feels very strongly about. You know what you don't hear much about it

but I mean he has causes like HBCUs are really important to him. The donations he makes there How the average person in the world is getting by matters to him and matters deeply to him And he is hurt when he sees things happen. So yeah, there's a sensitive side to Chuck There's a very sensitive side to Shaq. I Mean there have been times where We have felt that with him. The viewer too.

Yeah, and he'll, and we may laugh on the air about it, but he may take it home with him. That's what I say when I, Charles, when I say he isn't sensitive, I meant sort of to criticism. I've seen Charles with whatever would be described as the little people. Charles is extraordinary about giving of himself, unlike anyone I've ever seen in fame, making every person who comes into contact with him, make sure that they walk away from, okay, that was as long as I don't disrespect him, he won't throw me through a plate glass window. But if I'm just human with him,

he will be just as human back to me in a way that's moving to me every time I see it. Yeah. This is true. And with Shaquille, look, we had a huge laugh one and people have seen the clip. They, hey, it's supposed to go one to two to three,

not one to two and back to one, you know? And because Charles had taken up all this air time on a sponsored element that we're weighing in on. And we all laughed and we kept laughing with Shaq because it just sounded so funny. But he was, he was bothered by it and came in the next day and carried it with him. It was like it hadn't been forgotten and it was like in the middle of these

playoff runs where it's not like that happened on a Thursday, now we'll work again next Thursday, it was the next night. And he was still kind of in a shell. And so we realized, you know,, he is he is sensitive to to this and oh, and I'll be honest I had an episode with him last year When he was late for a show And there had been traffic, you know, we're living in Atlanta and there's always a lot of traffic but he showed up late for the show and He came up with an excuse on the air about it was this or

this and and we went to commercial break and he said how'd you like that excuse and it would it had been kind of one of those days for me too you know I said I didn't like it what are you talking about I said I didn't like it I said you need to be here he said what I'm I supposed to do about? 18 Wheeler turn it over and blah blah blah I Said you need to be here. I said you're vital to this show All right Next day

Dead silence and and really the rest of that night That's where it happened the rest of those shows that night he was kind of just sitting in the chair not volunteering much waiting to be called on which is not the way our show works so I knew this was me you know I had I had kind of crossed that line with him and he look he respects me and and I respect him I mean I did story with him back at his house in San Antonio before he was in the NBA and And he always brings that up man you came to my house and he always says it's 1989, but it was like 91. Okay, so So I knew

That that he it bothered him, that I had gotten on him. [♪ Music playing. Chorus of The Chainsmokers playing. [♪ Music playing. Chorus of The Chainsmokers playing. [♪ Music playing. Chorus of The Chainsmokers playing. Do you look at anything that you have done in your past professionally with a regret, a call, a decision, anything? Do you look back on it and say this didn't go the way that I would have planned it now with the wisdom I have accrued now? No, I mean there are plenty of calls that I butchered

and mistakes I made on the air but I think that's impossible for that not to happen. Were you gentle with yourself about it? No, not at first. I mean the first however many years it kills you, like just kills you and shakes your confidence to the point where you're thinking about it every night and if that situation comes up again, I hope I can do better. I mean, it stays with you. You can't be as good as you are at it without being a perfectionist that way, right?

It has to hurt. Right. And it should because you want to get better, but as long as you learn from it. But now as you get older, it's, you know, you realize it's live television, you're going to make mistakes, and it's okay. You have to just own up to mistakes. You know, I told this recently where last year, first game of the playoffs, Brooklyn played Boston, Jason Taney makes this great play at the end, wins the game for the Celtics.

It was like one of the classic finishes. And I so butchered the call and I was really upset that night because I felt our team had one of the best telecasts we've had all year. Like everything clicked and that's one of the real fun parts of the job when everybody from the producer, director, the camera people, the graphics people were all just kicking ass. And we did that day until I blew it at the end. So that's what tormented me. And that took a couple of days. But then you realize, OK, you can get back into it. Last year, Mike Breen, consummate professional,

was tormented for days? Maybe tormented's too strong. I didn't sleep that night. I was upset. I just wanted to do a game the next day so badly, just so I could get just back in and. It's a bit of a craze though. It's a bit of a, it's an insanity to. No question.

Like, I mean, you've been doing this too long to have sleepless nights of torment because you haven't made a career ending decision in the broadcast. You haven't made a mistake that ends your career, but just you had a bad night. Yes. Or a bad ending to a bad night. But I guarantee you ask any play-by-play announcer and they'll tell you the same thing. Now some might be better, but most that I know, I have some great friends that have done it and we share the stories. Iain Eagle is a great friend of mine, Kevin Harlan, Ryan Anderson, we talk about this all the time and we're all the same way. I have a friend who does this who describes that

as spending the night eating his own right arm. Right. Just consuming his right arm because of the way that you're ravaging yourself because you've been something less than perfect in front of people. Right. You let it go as you get older, you let it go. And I was better about it than I had been in the past. I'm not such an important game. But it's all part of the deal. What other advice have you gotten from broadcasters that has stayed with you? You mentioned that you, what did you say, you said it was Stockton, not Emberg, right? That obviously one of the best to do it. What are some other advices that you've gotten along the way from people that have been most helpful?

You know, two were that I love listening to and gave me advice. Fern Lundquist and Dick Enberg. Lundquist had a phrase, celebrate the game. And it's so appropriate. Because unfortunately, sometimes the game is bad. Sometimes you have to criticize players, coaches, refs. But people are watching the game because they love basketball. They don't want to hear you just killing people all the time. It's a game they love. That's why they're watching it.

So celebrate the good parts. And Vern was great at that. And he also helped in terms of telling you, make the people feel like the guy who's sitting next to you or the woman who's sitting next to you, like your best friends and are having just a time of your life together. And that, I thought, was really important. So that's something I did. The other

with Dick Enberg was people want to know about the athletes that you're talking about. So give them some personal anecdotes and let them know that these players, these young men in the NBA are human beings that have really interesting stories. So those two, you know, more than just the technique of doing play-by-play, those two things I thought were important. It must be strange to you as fundamentally decent as you are to see the coarsening in sports coverage when you're just trying to tell nice stories about an athlete who's human,

but you come from a tabloid city, you've seen sports television become argument television, you've seen Anthony Davis be amazing and majestic, but a source of just endless criticism. It must be bothersome to you to watch what sports coverage has become. I hate it. Journalism has become criticism. And I hate that, that it's people feel that they have to be critical to be considered a good journalist or to be a good analyst.

And there's so much out there that's, you know, it's, it's difficult to put yourself in their positions. I mean, we all make mistakes. I make mistakes on the air, players make mistakes on the court. And it just, it's become too critical and too, and it's not just having to be critical. It's just, you know, it's mistakes on the court. And it just, it's become too critical. And it's not just having to be critical, it's the words that are used in the criticism. You know, I've always felt I'll criticize somebody, but I'll

only use words that I would say to their face. For example, if you have a terrible game, you could say, oh, boy, Dan, he just was awfully stunk. It was an embarrassment what he did. Or you can say, boy, Dan really struggled tonight. You're saying the same thing. It's just a more humane way to say it. Why do you have to crush people while you criticize them? There's a respectful way to do it. And I think a lot of people have gotten away from that, and that bothers me.

Has it gotten meaner? Because you've worked in New York for a long time. The tabloids have played with this for a while. Basically sports radio and sports division was invented there. Sports radio has infected just about everything that is the sports coverage today. Yeah, no, it's definitely gotten meaner. Often there's a mocking tone to it. Unfortunately, that's what gets people noticed.

And that's why when I find, you know, when I talk to college students who want to do this, that's something I bring up. And I use that expression I just said to you before, is like, only say something about somebody that you would say to their face if you had to. Because if you're doing words that you'd be hesitant to say right to them face to face,

I don't think you're doing it the right way. But you have watched and seen many of your peers. This doesn't happen to you a lot. Just get wrecked by criticism. You mean that the broadcasters getting wrecked? Yes, I'm talking about there is such a swell of all manner of emotion around sports right now and such a cruelty in the way that we absorb

content with the advent, I shouldn't even say the advent of social media, but there's a lot of criticism on social media that would not be said to anybody's face. And you manage a space in this ecosystem that somehow doesn't get a lot of what I'm talking about, which is that announcer stinks for all of these reasons. Right. No, it's incredible. Well, Twitter is just, it's toxic in terms of it gives people the license just to destroy people. And I guess it's the old thing, you know, people want to make themselves better by bringing down others, excuse me, to their level.

$5. Don't pay any attention. It's just a fine for coughing and no microphones. An inside joke around here. You're going to put the $5, you're going to actually get the cash out of your pocket here and give us $5. You've got Van Gundy and Mark Jackson, they're perpetually getting hammered. Those guys are perpetually getting beat up. They're more opinionated than you are. You're playing it down the middle, but they're part of the telecast is always something that's

polarizing because there's a lot of people listening and they're going to get mad about something. Well, their, their, their criticism though, uh, from, from what I view it at is they have such a love for the game. So when they see a player, a coach or ref or the league, not doing something that's for the best for the game, that's where they criticize it. Cause they want the best of the game that they love the most. And that's to me what makes them so good, is they're not hesitant to make their feelings felt.

But I also feel their love of the game comes out all the time. And I mean, the criticism that they get, I have no idea. I think they're, you know, for me it's a dream come true, working with these two. We've been friends, all three of us, for over 30 years. And to do it this long with them sitting by my side, that's one of the reasons why I've had success, because I'm with two guys that I love as brothers, teach me about the game, and I'm so comfortable with them on the air. Do you tell them how you feel about them?

It's so funny you say that because they They don't they don't like that kind of stuff. They're not interested. They they they know how I feel They don't need me to say it But just the other day before game one of the finals I sent them both a text telling them how much they mean to me, but I specifically said at the end of the text I don't want to hear anything back. You don't respond to this because it would be a mock. They would be mocking me for doing that. But they know how I feel about them. Why did you feel the need to do that right before that?

Because I hadn't said it in a while. And that's kind of, you know, again, it goes back to what we were talking about before. When you have kindness thrown your way and it makes you feel good, you like to show, you know what, I can do the same thing. Maybe I can make somebody feel good with a nice text or a nice phone call. And I just felt, because I hadn't told them in a while, and we've been doing it a long time, and it kind of came because, you know, there was a press release about my 18th finals, and I can't comprehend that That's not something I can process that I've been able to call the finals for 18 years. That's Beyond anything I could even possibly dream about and to do it with them

It just was a it made me feel boy how blessed I am to have these two next to me and that's why I sent it How do you feel about them? I mean you've told me they're like brothers, but what does that mean? They would do anything in the world for me and they know I do anything in the world for them That's on a personal note on a professional note the beauty of it is we can say anything to each other on the air and nobody gets offended. And that's rare in the business to have that. And I think, again, because we came in the league the same time, Jeff taught me so much

about the league as a coach when he was an assistant. Mark taught me so much about it as a player and then as a coach. We watched our families grow up together. We just, and we spent a lot of time away from our families with each other. That it just, it's just been a special part of my life to have all this, these wonderful things happen with them next to me.

And I can't imagine it being any other way. But you don't tell them that you love them. Oh no, Jeff would smack me if I told him, but they know I do. I guess now I've known you for close to 30 years, right? Because your first job was in Fort Lauderdale, right? Your first professional job? So I graduated from Northwestern and I had done an internship in Fort Lauderdale a year earlier.

So I think that's actually when I first met you before I was even out of college. And then, yes, I was 21 years old. I moved down to the Fort Lauderdale, Miami area. And I was sort of the backup on the reporter on the Dolphins and the backup reporter on the UM team and the football team, which was at that point, it was Ray Lewis's senior year. And I don't have to tell you, but the audience knows how bananas that was.

And there just weren't people like me there. And you were frankly the closest thing. And we are not super, we don't look alike, but the fact that I was really surrounded by 40 year old plus men who didn't necessarily want a woman there or a girl as they saw me. And I pretty much, I was 21. So I'm not pretending I was older than I was.

And they didn't want someone who's 21 there. And they kind of thought, well, she didn't earn it. She wasn't here, you know. Oh, I didn't know you felt that kind of unwelcome from the start. I didn't feel it. They was told. I mean, that's the thing.

Like this kind of stuff doesn't, I think now it's more coded. Like back then it wasn't coded. It was, we don't want you here. Or you're only here because someone had to fill a quota or you're too young for this, like that kind of stuff. And like directly and out loud. So-

I don't think of you that way as a pioneer because the women who came right before you, the Lisa Olsons had to walk in locker rooms. Yes, Christine Brennan. Yes, no, a hundred percent. And I always make the point that with the players, those women definitely cleared such a path. And I think it was frankly harder work within the media

than sometimes with the players. Is that, you know, there was still so much more left to do. Do you remember any specific cruelties that struck you because they were so overt, somebody just telling you to your face? Yeah, sure. You know, I, a general manager of a team that will remain nameless.

You know, I was put on the beat. I was very young. I was the first woman to cover that beat. And I did the whole, you know, handshake, you know, hey, I'm gonna be covering your team this year, you know, whatever. Let's schedule an appointment to talk. Let's do whatever.

And he just told me, he's like, yeah, we, I don't think he said, we don't want you here, but he certainly said a version of that. And he's like, I'm not gonna help you. He's like, because if you don't get stories, you won't be here very long. So I'm not gonna talk to you about stuff. Like my door is closed, basically, not open.

Hello, nice to meet you. My door is closed. My door is totally closed to you all the time. And clearly transmitted that to some of his players who were uncomfortable. Again, they just had never had a woman regularly in their locker room. I'm sure there have been women who crossed in there, but they hadn't regularly had one. And I had several key players on the team who gave me one-word answers. And it was very clearly the idea was they're're gonna make sure I wasn't good at my job

and that that would get me out of there, which is what they wanted, because they couldn't explicitly get me out of there. The era had passed where they would be able to say, like they did with Christine Brennan or Lisa Olsen or any of those women who I wouldn't be here without, I wanna make that super clear, you know, that was the real fight.

We don't want women in locker room, we're gonna fight it, that kind of thing. That era had passed and now it was, we have to have you here, but we're gonna make sure you don't stay. And like everything else, you keep coming to work and eventually people, that became, it's funny, it turned into a really good situation for me.

But not before the GM was fired and replaced. So. What did the dream- I lasted longer than he did. What did the dream look like for you then? Like what, what were you dreaming of? Certainly it didn't look like this, right? You have, you have overachieved beyond your wildest dreams, correct?

Different. I would say overachieved it's differently achieved because I want to be a newspaper writer. So I grew up in Washington, DC in that area and I read Tony Kornheiser and Mike Welbon and Christine Brennan and Thomas Boswell and all those guys in the newspaper, and they were gods to me.

I mean, the talent level of the Washington Post sports section when I was a kid and when I first joined it, because I got very lucky and got to start working there in my early 20s, was just, I mean, it's off the charts. You look back at those names. And I read all the president's men 600 times in high school and just thought the Washington Post was the be all end all. I went to print journalism school.

I did not go to TV school at all, never picked up a camera. I think now you're kind of required to learn a little bit of everything. That was not the case. Like they had a broadcast degree and they had a print degree and I got a print degree and never in any way shape or form wanted to be on television, had any thought of being on television, just wanted to be a writer, wanted to do what those guys did. That was another place I entered in college and they were so warm and adopting me and Tony and Mike are like my uncles in the business and Christine

had a huge effect on me because she was the first woman to cover a pro NFL beat. So she was the first woman to regularly be on the beat for an NFL team which was kind of the last bastion of you you know, that. And I read her in the newspaper every day when I was still in high school and didn't know, I didn't know she was the first woman on an NFL beat. I didn't know she was the only woman on an NFL beat. I just knew that I loved that football team. And the person who I would read about them from,

pre-internet, was I would open up the Washington Post in the morning and it was Christine Brennan. So by the time I learned that there weren't almost any women in that position or that she was the first or any of that, like it was already done for me. Nobody could have told me like, oh, women can't do this because my starting point was that a woman had done this.

So those kinds of formative experiences, Tony Mike and Christine and all of that made me I wanted to be a writer, I wanted to work for that paper, and if I had done that for the rest of my life I would have been happy. And frankly I worked there for almost ten years and the only reason I left was because newspapers went through a huge industry change and I'd like to say because newspapers existed back then. Obviously a lot of stuff's been revived in The Washington Post in particular, which is awesome, but at the time it was a real bottom dropping out of what you could do. And you know I

started at The Washington Post and for years was able to, I covered tennis and I went to all four Grand Slams for the whole two weeks. I mean budgets like that don't exist in newspapers anymore. No, our stories are similar. I think they're parallel. This isn't something that I imagined myself doing. It's just, I was doing the same thing,

reading newspaper columnists, and it's all I ever wanted to be. Was your family supportive of this from the beginning? Yeah, absolutely, but it was really my thing. They were just like, okay. I mean, when I was 13, I knew what this, I wanted to be a sports newspaper reporter. And there were, even in college,

you have to do a required internship at Northwestern and they have a list of newspapers you can do it at. And Florida Sun Sentinel was one of them. And I went into that in the selection process and just said, I wanna work in sports. So I wanna do a sports internship. That's no good for me to do a news. It's not going to get me anywhere.

I'm not going to make any connections with anyone I'm going to want a job from. And I had to petition the Dean of the school because they'd never done anything like that before. And so it was just sort of a lot of steps like that along the way. They didn't think sports was a serious journalism thing. I was told it was the toy department. And I actually went back and gave the graduation speech at Northwestern about five years ago,

which was really cool for me to be able to do. And I brought that up that it was, you know, people tell you one thing and you can go do another. But I do want to say when I first got to the Miami Fort Lauderdale area, you were the only one within, I mean, you're about five years older than me, you were the only one within a 15 year age of me. And you were so cool, Dan. Like you, you were like this young, I mean, you were just made columnist, I think. Like you were like everywhere. You had this amazing confidence, at least on

the outside, um, and you. Everyone thinks I have it all together. I don't know what it is that I'm projecting. Oh, I don't think, I don't think that now. But I was 21 and you were the cool 26 year old and you had friends, you were kind, I mean I said to your producer, Matthew, I don't even know how much you remember this,

but to me it was very formative because nobody was that nice to me. I was living in a new city, I didn't know anyone, and you're like, oh yeah, come out for beers with me and my friends, like come, you know, whatever. And I was like, oh my God, this is, I get to go out with Dan Lemontard and his guys and do whatever and hang out. And it was very much like, okay, someone I can at least

relate to. And I wouldn't say we were particularly close, but it was one of those things where it's just like what you meant in terms of, okay, like there's someone else there that is also probably being told he's too young and not quite accepted in the old guard and that kind of thing. So it meant a lot to me and it's funny Matthew said to me he's like oh and what advice did Dan have for you about journalism or making it? I was like nothing he we never talked

about that he just was someone to go have a beer with and that was actually really important. Well I didn't know anything then I was it was too young for me to even be a columnist. I didn't I didn't know what my voice was going to be or what it should be. I look back at some of the stuff that I wrote back then. It was not, I mean, I've got diametrically opposed viewpoints to what, what do you know when you're in your early 20s about writing larger opinion pieces?

But because some of this, I'd like some of this to be biographical, like Your early years were like what? How do you arrive at being someone who's interested in this stuff? I mean, I love the football team. And I was just entranced. We can go through the three names they've had since I was a kid, the commanders now.

But they won three Super Bowls from the time I was like, I wanna say like eight years old to when I was in college. Like it was just a really fun team. The city was so into them and that got me, that was the gateway and that got me into other sports. But I just loved it. Was there any connection with family members?

Like for me, because for me it was the way to connect with my father. My father sort of introduced me to sports and I would say that my father and I were closer than my brother was with my father, just because I took an interest in this as a connection point with my dad. Did you know it at the time?

Did you do it on purpose? No, I did not know that I was being impacted this way. I was just searching for ways to connect with my father, and this was an easy place that didn't require a lot of conversation. But what did you love about it? What was the thing that got you? Was it just, I like watching games,

was it something more broad? Well, I mean, at the beginning, it's just that I'm showing up at the Orange Bowl, and my life as an exile is very small. And I'm walking into an amusement park that might as well been for me. I had no access, we didn't have money. So even Disney World wasn't available to me.

So you're going from small exile life to this sprawling place that's noisy and you're holding your father's hand as he takes you through the jostle and you just get sort of changed there, especially because like it was a good place for me to have a deeper bond with my father. My father would then go, like, uh, originally

my father would show up to my baseball games and get very mad because I was striking out and stuff. He'd show up after work with his tie and stuff. And my mom would explain to him, look, I can teach him a lot of things, but I like being a man is something like you have to teach him. It's your department, buddy.

Yeah. And so he would then become the coach of my teams and stuff. And so that was just a place because my father, my father, uh, very old school Cuban, sort of emotionally, uh, limited. And so it was just a place where I could feel something, feel connected to him in a way that I would assume

any child needs. You know what's so awesome? You're talking about your dad and we all know him. Like that's what's so great is that I'm picturing this because I mean, I've personally met your father but your whole audience knows him. And like that's very cool. Yeah.

Just an aside. That's the greatest, yeah, I've. That was the, that's the greatest. Yeah. I've said this before. It's just the greatest professional blessing in my life to be able to, to grow old with him on television and to share him with an audience.