The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - The Best of SBS: Michael Wilbon

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

On the announcement that he'll be missing his first NBA Finals in nearly four decades, we look back at Michael Wilbon's personal, thoughtful, and intimate conversation with Dan Le Batard from June 8, 2023. Michael Wilbon brings a whole new meaning to "PTI" on South Beach Sessions. Raw, uncut, and as real as it gets - Dan says all the things he's always wanted to and in return, Wilbon shares moments from his life that he's never told anyone. You'll just have to listen... you won't regret it. Watch Michael Wilbon & Tony Kornheiser on "Pardon the Interruption" weekdays on ESPN. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to DraftKings Network. Welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm really excited about this one because I've never told this man how I actually feel about him beyond being a pioneer and someone who gave me and others like me permission, shared the stage with me. He's the original gangster. He taught all of us what sports writing could be, what friendship and partnership with someone you love could be, changing television with one of the best sports television shows ever made, and a long journalism career before that before you uh... gravitated toward the cotton candy and

one of the hardest workers i've ever met i don't know where your ambition comes from but i'd like to ask you a bunch of questions that i have never asked you before but first to express my profound respect and love for a legitimate teacher of mine. You and Tony showed me the way, showed me what could be possible. I'm 10 years older than you and that means Tony's 20.

You know Dan, first of all, that means a lot to come from you. It means a lot to come from the people that are in a group that are half, if a generation is 20 and a half generation is 10, it means you and Stephen A. Smith and certain people that are exactly 10 years younger. We don't think of you guys as being younger, but you are. And if we showed anything, if we did anything that reveals some sort of humanity. My mother was a teacher, taught

public school in Chicago for 35 years, so teaching is important. So that's a that's that's that's a hell of a compliment. Thank you for saying that. I'm so grateful to you and Tony and Ryde Home and Kelleher and the entire environment that you had around you because it showed me what kind of environment I wanted around me. I tell people all the time it wasn't even the friendship of Tony and Mike that made me gravitate toward how I would do it in Its evolution. It's what they had behind the scenes caring for them the people Taking care of their relationship and enjoying each other's company creating something like you guys really did birth I'm not kidding you when I tell you that you guys watching you because it was unstated

It's not like you were telling me holding me by the hand. No, we didn't hear guys. Don't talk about that stuff, right? No, Dan, okay, but you know it comes but there but there's another place where you got some of it because you're The people ten years younger than us the last people to sadly get this and it was the camaraderie the the engagement, the contention of the newsroom. And so ours is based on, you know, if you watch, if people are old enough to have watched Mary Tyler Moore and the ensemble cast of Mary Tyler Moore and Ted Baxter and John Amos and of course, Lou Grant.

They were living breathing things. Newsrooms were, they had a heart. They were, I missed that. People say you miss writing. Not really, I miss the newsroom. But I know the newsrooms don't exist anymore. Not like they did for us. And so Tony and I existed in the same newsroom. And we took that down the street.

And Eric, speaking to people, Eric's not quite 10 years younger, but you know, you guys got the benefit of some of that. And yes, Tony and I, we needed it. It was mandatory to flourish in that kind of environment. Needed the sparks, needed people arguing, cursing at each other, creative bursts. Something that HR would not tolerate anymore we used to tell young people who came into the PTI newsroom in 20 so this is 2001 2002

three four five six young people interns men and women young men and women be careful at how Tony and Mike are going to curse we don't give a shit if you don't like it if you don't like it leave. Oh My god, can you imagine if people in Bristol knew that? So we did and we didn't care that and you know what no one ever complained to our knowledge Because it was a democratic place. It was a place where you could scream back You know, that's that's the magic of it that everybody was sort of equal no matter Who got paid more. Everybody was pretty equal. Did you realize that you were pioneering? Did you

realize that you were leading the way, giving sports writers permission to turn into characters on television? I would tell you why the answer is no. It's an actual concrete no. Because I grew up, Dan, I'm the weirdest creature in this way. People come to me and they say, Stephen A. Smith has told me this. We work together every week on Countdown on ESPN. And he's told me, you know, people have said, you were the first person I sort of saw. And then when I was in the profession already, you guys made this transition. Well, when I was in the profession already you guys made this transition well when I was a kid a kid I'm talking about 12 14 years old

Brent Musburger did this in Chicago he wrote for the Chicago Daily News and then Brent Musburger was on CBS with Jimmy the Greek and and Irv cross and Jane Kennedy or and and Miss America I'm forgetting that. Phyllis George. Phyllis George. So Brent Musburger covered the Bears and then he was on TV. So I was a kid. And then there was a guy, bringing it even closer to home for me, a guy named Wendell Smith. Wendell Smith was a black man, an African American man in his, I'm guessing 50s and

60s. His widow just died. And he was writing a column for the Chicago Sun Times and he was on WGN at the same time, when I was eight and 10 years old. So I've had people come up to me in the last 20 years saying you were the first person I saw who looked like me who did this. I saw people, I saw someone, Wendell Smith,

who looked like me and did both and crossed over and transitioned Into television when I was 10 so 55 years ago So no, I don't consider myself a pioneer. I saw people do this. I actually know one of them Brent Musburger is something of a Mentor without ever being presumptuous enough Brent Musburger. Then I went to the same college What's a Northwestern, Brent is Papa Wildcat, Brent is 80 plus at this point, right? So Brent's got at least

16, 17 years on me. Okay, you can cite other pioneers, but for me and for Stephen A. Smith, you were the guy. And I have a, I know that's factually, I get it. You know, I believe you guys. It's just, but you asked me if I thought of myself that way. God no. Well, you were too busy working and repressing general feelings that aren't supposed to be spoken out loud by sportsmen.

Repressing. Yes, sports cavemen. But you, man, I remember your kindness, your grace, Michael, beyond just being nice to people walking through an arena, people slapping you on the back, and really seeming like someone who was grateful that anybody would think Michael Wilbon's words meant anything. Enough to make him a rock star but beyond that you and Tony were so generous with your platform and you know as well as I do that that's not true of all of your sports writing peers with ego no it's not true of all of our

our colleagues which is too bad because we generally felt that way. We generally felt that way. I just think it's how I was raised. There's no presumption. I was raised by two people who fled the South post-depression, who were part of the great migration from Georgia and Tennessee and general places in the South, but specifically for them, Georgia and Tennessee, my father and mother respectively, to Chicago. And they were grateful for what they had, all of it. Grateful, every day. And you had to be grateful. And there was no presumption. There was no other way. And then I really believe that people from the Midwest use the phrase Midwestern sensibilities. That that, you know, people from the Midwest use the phrase Midwestern sensibilities, that exists. And I know people from the East don't believe

it, and people from the West don't even know what it is. Oh, but it's not just politeness. Hold on a second. There are plenty of people in this business, competitive people in this business, who would have been threatened. You have real confidence. But who would be threatened by the sharing of the stage that It is mine. It is not you had A seminal program that somehow still exists. Okay that has made its way through the labyrinth of all espn things Isn't subject to cuts because you guys are now above cuts like you've got seniority. Let's hope you are tenured In high school. I need to be above cuts. You are tenured at what it is that you do and from the very beginning

You shared that with me and you didn't have to and you did it in a really loving way that made someone who was nervous You feel accepted that and Dan it wasn't conscious Just that's how, that's who we were. Those were the conditions under which we came into the business and grew up and we were very lucky too. To have the people that shared what they shared at the New York Times and Newsday for Tony and the Washington Post and the Washington Post for me. We just, there's no, I mean Bob Woodward and Ben Bradley were that way when we got to the Post. So why wouldn't we be? Didn't think of it. The Watergate reporters were that way with Tony and Mike in the sports. Yes, I remember, I don't know why this came up recently but it did. Tony and I were talking about it on November 22nd 1988 which would have been the 25th anniversary exactly of the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

Tony and I were on the fifth floor where the Washington Post newsroom famously was and we We were just thinking about the 25th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Well his best friend was our boss, Benjamin C. Bradley, the great editor of The Post. And we decided to go up to his office and ask him if he would take us to lunch. If we, like, I don't even know what got into us. Tony did most of the talking, I was too scared. And we went into Ben's office, the secretary said he's back there going,

and Ben Bradley, people can picture Jason Robards if they need to, said, you two look like you want something. We said we'd like you. Can we go to lunch? Why? Well, today's, he goes, of course he knows what today is. And Ben Bradley took us to lunch for like three hours and told us stories. Darrell Bock Gruff old newspaper man. But you guys did bring journalism to what it, you guys brought, in changing the way

sports television was done, you guys brought a journalistic sensibility that had a little bit of meet the press to it and had also the crossfire sensibilities of we're going to argue but we love each other and the arguments aren't going to mean anything and they're not going to be phony they're not going to be unlike crossfire which was completely phony or a lot of sports television these days yes it is but yeah we yes we brought that sensibility because again that's who we were i mean part this, anything that you're crediting us with, and I'll speak for Tony now too, it's who we were. It's how we were trained. I went to what I think is the greatest journalism school in the world, Northwestern's Medill, and I brought that training. Plus, I

worked at one place for 30 years and six months, the Washington Post. That's all I knew. I knew how to go about news that way and sports that way and treat it like it was news, not like it was the toy section. It wasn't the toy section. And I know where you grew up at the Miami Herald and I know people like Edwin Pope who helped shape my early life. They did. I know we were shaped by some of the same forces. And I know the people that you worked with like Greg Cote, because I feel that there was a way that we were all taught to be at that point in the business, and I'm grateful for that. And so I take no credit, though I'm glad you offer it, for sharing the stage. The stage was to be shared. It wasn't mine. It wasn't mine to dominate. And I know what you're talking about. I won't name names and we know the same

people who did not want to share. I don't care about them. Well, there are more, but there are more than, I found more of those in this business than I found people like you and Tony. You did more things and you went more places and you had more interactions with people on that level than we did. You know me. I want to go to a gym on a Tuesday night or a Thursday night. Well you love sports in an uncommon way, you love work in an uncommon way, and I want to get into your life and times because I don't think people understand how hard it has been and what you've earned, what you've had to earn.

But you purposefully just did 30 years and 6 months because it hurts you to leave newspapers how do you know that it's six months 30 years I know the day that I left December 7 2010 might would have been my father's birthday December 7 he was born on 16 years old on Pearl Harbor Day so I got a real easy way to remember it and Matthew was two years old so he he was born in 2008. So I got an easy way to remember it, and that just happens to be from June 13, 1980, when I got to the post, 30 years and six months. So yeah, it's easy to remember for me. No, it wasn't intentional. I didn't want to leave.

ESPN sort of forced me to leave. They just said, we don't want to see your best work there. We want it here, enough. because I overlapped for nine years You know, I know we talked about it and you know same we were together crazy amount of what are you doing? Why won't you choose and I didn't trust television still don't Don't and I trusted working for Don and Katherine Graham. I trusted that and Obviously that you know people say to you, you miss it.

Yeah, I miss it, but I would have missed it if I was still there, because it doesn't exist anymore now. But yeah, I did it because I didn't trust it. And again, I'm the son of sharecroppers. You know, people who grew up and did hard work on the farm. And my father got up at 3 45 every morning And went to work every morning. There was no What is that the NBA players do now load management? There's no load management

There's none My father never missed a day of work in my life Until he retired at 58 years old Retired 58. So there's no load management. Take your ass to work. That's what we did. Fathers went to work. And so I'm embarrassed that people don't work.

That's what you're supposed to do. That's your obligation to the people that are in your family, to the city, the neighborhood, the culture, however large you wanna make it. So yeah, so I didn't, I don't, I don't take any credit for that. That is your work though, because you know that part you understand, you know that you're a symbol for something with your platform that you- Well now I do. I didn't know that when I was doing it at first. I didn't know. I mean,

I know, yes, now, yes, I'd be sitting here lying and I'd be naive if I didn't know. I mean I know, yes. Now, yes, I'd be sitting here lying and I'd be naive if I didn't know. But no, you went to work. I didn't have, I missed one day of school in grade school from kindergarten to nine. One day. I remember throwing up in the third grade. It was the last time I threw up until I was 38 years old. One day. I remember how embarrassed I was to throw up and miss the next day of school. And I grew up someplace where people weren't just lazy. I grew up someplace where there was a 27 inch snowstorm when I was in fourth grade. You got to be at school by 1030 the

next day instead of nine. There's no snow days. Matthew says, dad, how many snow days you have as a kid? What? What? And kids now miss school, miss work for any reason, any bullshit reason. I didn't miss anything. I think the most soulful conversation I ever had with you was before Matthew was born, after you had your heart issue

and you were doing some deep dive looks into mortality and to life's purpose because you have dedicated almost the entirety of your identity to the work. Yeah, I guess so. I don't see it. I don't think... You mentioned earlier about, you tied it to sports about what sports guys don't think of and don't talk about damn I don't think about it

Consciously now I thought about yes, you were right. You were there you see it was a snapshot I've never seen it before from you week. It was a week. It was it was one week I remember I wanted to come back to work and you called me I remember the phone call and you said don't be an idiot. You don't have to work. You had a heart attack, stop it. Well, I thought you did have to work, because I thought if my dad was alive, that's what he would have wanted me to do.

Go to work. You're fine, or you think you're fine. Get up and go to work. So I wanted to go back to work on Friday, and you and Tony in ride home said no. So I went back to work on Friday and you and Tony and ride home said no So I went back to work on Monday I did so the soul searching was more about my father died at 60 of lung cancer and

I spent my entire life being afraid of turning 60 Afraid when I got to 50 you you think I was bad and had the heart attack at 49 You choose to see me at 59 10 years later. later was worse because I was I was afraid to turn 60 Even though my mother was 92 at the time I Identified with my father not my mother's 92 years ultimately 93 and you got to know my mother a little bit I got to I did have my own man. And so the examination of it was just fear. Straight up. A week of introspection and then back into the work. And back into the work until we got to about 57. And then I started to fear, I'll say 58,

before I just said damn, you know. My old man, you know, died at an age where I'm actually not getting that emotional. It means I'm tired. When I start tearing up, it means I'm tired. It literally means I'm tired, too tired. I've been keeping too many late nights. I want, all I care about is I want to I want to I want for Matthew to have me longer than I have my father I Was 27 when my father died now people might say the bars low cuz I'll be 20 Matthew be 28 when I'm 78

All right, so if I can get to see Matthew turn 30, that's what I want. But I didn't think, 60 was just, it was a tough thing. Because I lived, like to this day, to please my old man. Even dead 36 years, something like that. But that's what I exist. So that examination, that's the examination. It was that simple and probably removed, and I didn't think I had to do less work. You know me, you know, I didn't do less work No, you don't know what that means. Does Matthew know what you just told me?

No, no The biggest regret I have about this generation gap is it's a real gap The biggest regret I have about this generation gap is it's a real gap Like the general the word generation gap the phrase was meant to describe what existed between the depression era people people born from World War one to almost World War two or World War two and then their children and grandchildren. I should tell people you had Matthew, Matthew's 15 now. Matthew's 15, I was 49 and a half years old.

And so that generation gap was meant to describe that. But yet at some point I still adopted the music my parents listened to. While calling them old and listening to the Jackson 5 and they couldn't stand to hear it, I still I got to Nat King Cole and Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, right? And Sam Cooke, I got to them. I've never considered what you're presently putting in front of me, which is the idea that there is a generation of pop culture removed from even father and son because you had him right before you or right after you had the heart attack I did for you had the heart attack. No, forgive me. Forgive me on the timing on this right after right after two months

After he's born March 25th. I had the heart attack on January 28 same year But so so generation gap ultimately we. And ultimately I can sit in the car with my mother, who's 32 years older than me. That's not a small gap for somebody born in 1925 to have a child 32 years later. We did this, we watched the same stuff, we listened to the same stuff, we consumed the same things. We didn't say, what, what is that? Now we have generation gaps, big ones. And I don't mean you don't have to be 50 years older than your kid, everybody has it. Technology helped create that.

So does Matthew really internalize anything that goes on in my life? No. Will he? I don't know. I don't know, and again, I don't know that that would be any different if I was 44 right now and not 64.

What did fatherhood teach you? Because before that, I would say that Wilbon was married almost pretty exclusively to his job. Yeah, Cheryl would probably say that I still am Just put some things on the back burner other things become more important is very simple The greatest thing I've ever done is be be Matthew's father the thing I'm proudest of is being Matthew's father does that mean I You know, I got I was at a point then at 50, I'd already worked 30 years.

So what you and others were saying at the time was, you can back off. I didn't know that gear. I didn't have that. And didn't do it. And probably that led to some other things. But the thing that I saw that I got from my father in the relationship was dad's work

and that's what I want Matthew to get. I don't know if he gets it. I really don't. He sees it. First of all, he sees he's running around the arena last night. He knows I'm up there sitting there talking but he's running around. He met Neymar at the Miami Arena. Well, but wait a minute. This is your fault. This part's your fault. But it's not. I went to work with my father. It's my work. I know, but- He drove a truck, it was a little different. I know, yes. He didn't get to go hug Magic Johnson. That's correct, slightly different.

This one's your fault. It's not fault, it's my reality. You've given your son, I'm saying he's a little bit spoiled. No, he's very spoiled. Okay, that's your fault, and on top of that, maybe he hasn't learned quite the value of hard work the way you did because you saw your father coming home and he'd be busted up and and your life wasn't quite as opulent as I'm guessing Matthew's life is right now. No, he left the you know he left the

Ritz Carlton South Beach this morning after breakfast by the pool. He left that to fly back home to Washington. After meeting Neymar. After meeting Neymar last night. After being in a finals game because he wanted to fly in and be with his dad. Yeah I wanted him to do that. I told you know there's no more gifts and boxes and packages for him. You get experiences. You get experiences. So stuff that you'll remember. And so you know, he and we did that at a young age. We did that purposely. Because we do enjoy that connection with sports. We argue and fight about sports every day. Like my father and my brother and I did at the

kitchen table. Which people say was a precursor to PTI. People who know what our kitchen was like. So Matthew and I do that every day much to my wife's chagrin Every day screaming holler dad. Why don't you love Kyrie Irving because Kyrie's an asshole. Why do you love him Matthew? This is every day And so he gets that part of it he gets what I do didn't want any part of it And so he gets that part of it. He gets what I do. Didn't want any part of it.

But he can also luxuriate in the benefits of how you get to do that. So I don't know what it means. I don't know what any kids get from their parents anymore because they don't even, they don't talk. We didn't have headphones on, Dan. I didn't have headphones on. My father would have slapped the shit out of me and not the

headphones out of my ears from the bear bop pods or buds or whatever they are they don't even list and i even paying attention to us they'll pay attention to each other is no dialogue tell me tell me how your parents shaped you because uh... you were visiting your mother in miami into her lates before you moved her to Chicago. A dutiful son you were until the very end. Tell me about your parents, how they shaped you, and I mentioned where or I asked you where ambition came from. I know where your work comes from. I know where your work comes from, but I don't know where and how your

ambition would shift. Fear of failure. Fear of failure, plain and simple, everything. That has Right. I know where your work comes from. Yeah, I don't know where and how your ambition was your failure Fear of failure plain and simple everything that has always motivated me don't fail Don't fuck up. I Mean, that's just it does that come from parents. Yeah. Yeah, they they lived in my mother took So yes, I moved my mother as you completely accurately said to Chicago because I couldn't I couldn't come to South Florida to look After her I'm already in Washington We built a second home in Arizona and then I got involved a lot in Chicago and my alma mater Northwestern and the south side of Chicago and trying to

Be involved in the fabric of the place that that produced me and I couldn't get I couldn't ask South Florida that anymore I said to her where do you want to spend your last chapter? And she said, how about home? And home for her was the South Side of Chicago. She went there 14 years old. Her father's brother had driven down in the dirt of Tennessee and the country roads and said to his brother, her father, Frank, why don't you let Robert, RJ, why don't you let one of your 11 kids come to Chicago, live on the South Side with me and my wife and go to school?

And my mother overheard it because they didn't have any kids, they couldn't have children. And my mother overheard it and she reminded her father, can I go to Chicago? She was 14. She got on the train by herself at 14 in the South and left Tennessee, a little town called Trenton, Tennessee, took the train to Chicago at 14, same age that Emmett Till lost his life. And I asked, I talked to her about this,

we would have these Christmas night dinners and I was sad, you would have done this. This would have you would have been better than me as a journalist you you You have gotten these stories out of your parents earlier and intentionally. I didn't I didn't do it till it was late She was you know 90 the night we had this conversation I said you've never told me about your trip the train trip to Chicago from Trenton, Tennessee. What was it like and your trip, the train trip to Chicago from Trenton, Tennessee. What was it like? And she was telling, she finally, she told me and I said, why didn't, why haven't we talked about this? She said, there's certain things you didn't want your children to have to hear.

And she got on the train and this is, so 14 years old, it's through the mass, she was born in 1926, this is 1940. She gets on a train, she's going north from the south, and she sits where everybody sits, where everybody else sits, which means she sat where the white folks sat. And I said, well, what did the ticket taker, she said, the ticket taker came to me and said, what are you doing sitting here? And I said, where do you want me to sit? What are you talking about? Because she'd never been on a train with white people. So how would she know? This guy let her go and let her stay in that seat.

And when they got far enough north where black people could move to the front, she was already there. And she saw this migration. How about that for symbolism? She saw this migration of Negroes from the back cars to where she was already sitting and it dawned on her. I wasn't supposed to be here. Nobody physically could have thrown her off or worse. And she took the train like that and got to Chicago and survived it and lived, lived to tell me about it all those years later. I never knew the story. And I know the story of Emmett Till, well, South Side of Chicago. I know my mother knew Mamie Till.

They both taught school. They were about five years apart in age, if that. And so, so all of that backdrop and my father fled the South, fled, fled. His father and other siblings, other of the aunts and uncles feared lynching. Feared my father's temper, which was, I'm not going back there, was going to get him killed. Get him on a train, send him north. So instead of Detroit to get a job with the auto industry or whatever They send to Chicago where there were some other siblings so that that Has to be known about me and my brother and where we come from and

and how you got out of that circumstance as you worked and you and we didn't do most of the other stuff, my parents, my parents were frugal and they were children of the depression. And so that creates very much the person I am. And then growing up on the South side, growing up the most segregated big city in America at the time, a brawling city, a city where nobody was afraid, nobody was afraid. And if people think Chicago is just violent now for the first time, they're idiots. Chicago's always, I know what my hometown is and isn't, it's always been violent. Anybody can watch the same Valentine's Day massacre movie and figure that out. And so all of that produced me. I'm the sum of all of that. My father was also the son of a Baptist preacher. My father was also the son of a Baptist preacher. My parents were church-going Baptist people. I haven't set foot in the church in a long, long time. I guess I have actually.

You've got your own church, actually. You've made Church of Sports. You've raised— That Sunday morning. That Sunday, Sunday for me is worshiping in front of multiple televisions. What was your dad getting up to do at 345? Deliver, it was always food products. At first it was sodas. When back when there were bottles, sodas, and there were crates of them, and people took the bottles back for a deposit.

He delivered soda, delivered bread, delivered ice cream when I was old just to remember, and went with him to stores, to routes. He was a route salesman. My father was once laid off. He was the number one route salesman at Dean's Food Company in Chicago in 1968, and he was laid off despite being the number one guy laid off. Only black salesmen in the company had.

And a young dude, I woke up and went to the breakfast table one Wednesday morning and there's this guy sitting at my breakfast table wearing a dashiki with sideburns down to his mustache. His name was Reverend Jesse Jackson Jr. And he said, you're not getting laid off because I'm going to organize a boycott of Dean Foods on the south side of Chicago until you get your job back. My father was hired back in about two days.

That doesn't sound like the kind of job that can afford sending a son to Northwestern. Yeah. Yeah, he was proud that we had no financial aid because we didn't qualify. Everybody else, white and black in 1976, was qualified for financial aid. Because Northwestern was the most expensive school in the country, or one of the five most. And no financial aid.

For two kids, my father put the two of us through, my father and mother, on a teacher salary, which was pretty good back then. Was he very good? Were you seeing your father much, or was he just exhausted all the time? He was home by four. He always had, we ate dinner together every day.

Every day we ate dinner. He got up, he left the house at four. But he was back, he was back by the time I got home from high school. I just would think that someone like that might be very tired at the end of that kind of work day. He must have been. He always, he stayed up. We watched television, watched sports together every night. Every night. He was available. We took a nap. But we were together. But he, you know, he didn't know anything else. He thought he was lucky compared to what could have been

going on in the South at the time, had he stayed. But he made enough money, I remember my parents shared, they told us how much money they made. My father showed us his paycheck. We knew how much he made. We knew what FICA was, we knew what came out of the check, both of them, exactly how much they made. And we knew they made more, I knew my father made more than the, sometimes, no, most of the time, the doctors and the dentists and the lawyers who, we all lived together, all of us. Which meant, yes, Muhammad Ali lived there

on the south side of Chicago when I was growing up, and you saw him, and you saw the physician. We don't wanna go anywhere else. We lived next to Walton No-Neck Williams on the Chicago White Sox, and Billy Williams and Ernie Banks lived not far away. It was that segregated. Those guys weren't living anywhere else. The Black Bears players lived, because Lake Forest was so far away. So Gale Sayers we didn't see and JC Caroline we didn't see.

We saw everybody else. We all lived together. And yeah, my father put two kids through Northwestern with no financial aid. And you dreamt then of being a sports writer died or pretty early when I realized I wasn't gonna be the next Ernie Banks I was 15. I realized I wasn't That was not gonna be playing at Wrigley Field, but writing isn't much of a career like I didn't you made it neither did I but in career. I didn't see it that way. You made it neither did I but in if I show you retrospect right now like my father wanted me to be an engineer this doesn't seem like a very safe path the one that you took. I didn't pay attention to my parents and what they thought I told them I was going to major in journalism and I remember everybody scoffed at it at the dinner table including my brother

the banker he says no he didn't I'm like he did. I was only two years younger than me. I didn't, I wasn't paying, I don't know what they wanted me, they never told me what they wanted me to be. They were going to be supportive educationally of whatever. And so- Some people might think that sports writing with a Northwestern degree is a waste of a Northwestern degree. Yeah, but I had David Israel, and I had Brent Musburger and David Israel, and no, it was fine. And, you know, the money wasn't bad relative to the times. Who was making a bunch of money back then? Lawyers, doctors, maybe? I saw my father make more. I remember starting at about $23,000 a year.

Yeah, me too. I started at $23,000 a year even 10 years earlier. I started at $23,000. We had this discussion last night Matthew said dad What did you make when you worked at the Washington? Well, then I actually told him to the penny and so I didn't care what they were Paying me though. I was so happy. They were giving me any money to do it. I cared a little bit, but that was 10% I'm like you I just I was I was doing what I wanted to do. I could afford a nice apartment in DC and a car wanted to do, I could afford a nice apartment in D.C. and a car, go on a date every week maybe once. Life was pretty good. And we, Dan, 1980 and even 1990 were a whole lot different than 2020. Well, tell people about what the hardships were though.

I didn't have any. Because you didn't have any? Nope. Not a one. I had no student loans to pay back because my father didn't get financial aid. We didn't borrow money. I had a little bit. I had $2,500 a student loan to pay back. I don't think I could do that properly. I had no hardships. George Solomon hired me, promoted me. I went from college sports to pro sports to columnist in 10 years and wrote a column for the next 20 after being 10 as a reporter. I had no hardships. I had no desperate awful relationships.

I didn't have that. My parents, my father died. That was my hardship, 27 years old. I was 27, he was 60. My mother was able to, my mother and father saved enough money that she bought a place here as you know in Kendall, lived in South Florida, went back and forth to Chicago and wintered down here for several years until she got tired of going back and forth and moved down here permanently.

I had no hardships, none, zero. Did your father tell you that he was proud of you? No, never. Never told me he loved me, Never told him that. We didn't do that. It wasn't done. Never. I remember saying it, I never kissed my father until I kissed his forehead when it was in a casket. And I never talked about that before, but that's the truth. and I remember my father died of lung cancer He smoked himself to death Philip Morris unfiltered cigarettes post-world war two and I was pissed at him when he died I mean I was angry and I remember grabbing my mother's

head and Don's head going Out on the steps when the casket was coming down being carried by the pallbearers and they were crying and I said we're not doing this today. We're not doing this today. And I didn't. Because I figured he should have stopped fucking smoking. He was getting my brother to get him cigarettes in the hospital. My brother was in college and I found out about it. But no, we didn't tell each other that stuff. But I knew. I knew. Like, there was no question as to what my father dedicated his lives to us. So what was that? He wasn't getting the king's ransom,

right? And he was going out. My father went to work in overalls every day, a pair of overalls and boots. Went to work every day like that. Drove a big ass truck, big huge truck. So yes, we never told each other that stuff. And I don't know anybody who did. And maybe they did and we just didn't talk about it. I don't know that my family did that.

You were angry at the funeral. Yeah, I was pissed But you kissed him in the casket. Just his head in the casket. Yep Yep only time Did I remember that and I don't feel we missed anything. He was there every day He was at Little League games back when nobody parents didn't take off Now there's a whole damn gallery of parents at every game Matthew plays. It's like really do you people work? What a blessing though Michael to know to not have to hear it You just know it because the man carried himself in a way that showed it to you daily

Yeah, I don't know mom. My mother said said it that much. My mother and I said it, you know, more times after 60, between 60 and 93 for her than we ever did from 32 to 60. How about your brother Donald? Do you share that with him? Do you say it out loud? No. No. No.

But he's, you know, he's my biggest fan and best friend my entire life and my brother. Why wouldn't you just tell him? Period. I probably have told him two or three times. No more than that. Matthew gets it all the time though, right? Not now anymore. Teenage boys. Teenage boys don't give you much Danny, they don't give you shit. They don't. They don't. They just don't. As a little kid, as a little kid he would say it, you know, and I would say there were friends of mine who said, you know this is gonna stop at like 11. You can start playing video games and get become a tough guy and

He's not giving you any of that and I was thinking yeah, right. I'll be different I'll be different You're not different. Oh But you are such a softie for him for you I have admired both your combination of of love and hard love because I just remember one time, I don't even know how old he was, but he was young and he had done something in a restaurant. I was on the phone with you and you were like, I'm going to go handle this right now.

And I felt like Matthew was about to get a decent beating. He got a few. He got a few ass whoopings. Somebody can come get me if they want to. He felt like he had done something pretty bad. I believe in that. My parents believed in switches. Parents from the South, go out and bring a branch in so I can beat your ass with it.

I believe in that. Sorry. He didn't get many. I whipped his ass a few times though. A few. A couple of times. He was really young. And I'll get in his face now.

I mean, I haven't... I've decided I'm not gonna do it anymore. After he turned 12, I don't think I've done it in two years. That's well, yeah, that would've been 13. So maybe three years, I haven't done it. And it's like, okay, I gotta handle this differently. Because I wouldn't have wanted my father doing that after I turned like 11. I got my last whippin' when I was 11. But I have to jump him. I have to jump him every now and then. Can you explain to me a little

bit differently or more how it is that you arrived at having the thought, I need to be here for Matthew longer than my father was here for me, and what you were doing with this fear, how did that fear manifest itself at 57, 58, 59, where you're just, you're saying deathly afraid of not living longer than your father? Yeah, because I don't have a wish to live. We just talked about this, I was talking about this with somebody a couple days ago, about living to 95. You know, I don't, I don No, I don't long to do that. I don't have

that ambition. It doesn't mean I'm going to be ready to roll out of here if I happen to live, but I don't have that ambition. Most of the men in my family, lately they've been living longer. So I never saw that. you don't see a whole lot of black men living a long time in most of our circles. And I'm diabetic. I got heart disease. Obviously had a heart attack at 49. You know, I got the shit that takes you out early. And it's manifested itself. I was careless when I was younger I didn't treat diabetes with the with the fear. I should have treated it with I thought I was invincible like a lot of guys my age who have means and And access to health care and all you just think you know do whatever I want to do wrong

So when you mention I look skinny I've lost you know I weigh 50 60 pounds less than I did when I got married. And that was 1997, so not all that long ago. 25 years ago, 26 years ago, 50, 60 pounds less? Jesus, I was 250 then, I'm 192 now, so almost 60. I gotta be better. But that's just me, so I don't want to die at 60 either, like my old man. So you know, it's a combination of that. But I'd like to be here, because that's the most important thing I do. My father never got to see his son's real successes.

He never got to live that long. My brother hadn't even gone to grad school yet. I think when my father died, my brother's an incredibly successful banker. My old man didn't get to see that. So I'd like to just revelatory for me, Dan. I said to a couple of people, a dear friend of mine who used to run Johns Hopkins Hospital and Howard, Eddie Cornwell, I called him and said, this disease, this virus, where do I need to be riding this out? And he's like, I'm sorry, don't you have a blank in the house in Arizona? Go there because density is not your friend. And I went to Arizona, I had a ton of doctor friends.

And each one of them said the same thing. So I went to Arizona and Cheryl and I went there and then we took Matthew and he could go to school remotely. He was in fifth grade, sixth grade, whatever, sixth. And he had remote school every day. And we were out in the, I don't care what the people said about the numbers. Matthew and I went to the golf course one day,

thank God golf courses stayed open in Arizona. I'm a totally blue state guy. It was interesting what was going on in Arizona as it went from red to purple to now blue. And Matthew said, Dad, people say you shouldn't be within six feet of each other. There's nobody within 60 feet of us. I'm like, exactly. That's why we're coming here every day.

We went to the golf course every other day and played nine holes. And then my brother drove off from Chicago with his son. And he and Jordan and I and Matthew, we played golf every day. Every other day, nine holes. And I said to him, when you guys are in your 50s, you're going to look back on this and say, can you remember when we spent all this time with our goddamn fathers? And I said, hopefully we'll never have this kind of time again. But it was life changingchanging, life-changing. And I spent 100 days in Arizona with my family. I have never spent 100 days with my family.

I said to Cheryl, she's meticulous about record keeping. I'm like, what do you think the greatest number of days we ever spent together was? Michael, you're always traveling. You're always going somewhere. I don't want to be anywhere longer than four or five days. You're always working. You're always going somewhere. I don't want to be anywhere longer than four or five days. You're always working. You're always getting on an airplane. I don't want to be anywhere longer than four or five days. That's just excess. I just don't. I get antsy. I'm not happy. But we were together for 90 days. The last 10 days they left and I stayed in Arizona.

And she came back with a number like, what do you think it was? And I said, I don't know, 60. was like like 38. It was like it was like minuscule We did because yes, cuz that you know my life, you know, you knew me before she did It's gonna be you not Cheryl. It's gonna be you've got to go off be to the next thing I don't think it's gonna I mean and she's got a big life too like yeah, but yeah, I know this is what I chose This is what I chose is what I like to do. I was doing it before I met her When she met me it was like this is what I do. You got to figure out a way to fit in this I don't fit in your life

You fit in mine. This is what we got. What do you think you? We want to do this because this is this is how I roll and I loved my life at 30 I got married almost 39 years old you I already loved my life Well, that's yeah, you can be very formed as a 39 yes 39 year old bachelor who's had success yes even though I was marrying an attorney who was a lot smarter and academically more accomplished than me but you're more stubborn and more formed and more caveman and so you're gonna be work work work I made it around I don't know there would have been the same if it was the other way around We had we had to support the the lifestyle that was making the most money

Absolutely, because at that point you had gotten rich and you didn't expect probably rich by well, but you're pretty whatever it is Whatever your dreams were as a sports writer. You have I had sir I will have surpassed no you have surpassed them, but what million million fold? Whatever the original dreams were? I hadn't done it at 39. When we got married it was happening. The explosion was happening then just because of where we were in the culture. It was going on in my life. Television, radio, other media. Mitch Albaum once said to me in a car, do you own your internet rights? It was 1996 and I said to Mitch, what's the internet? Real conversation. He was always ahead of the game. He was way ahead of us. He had an NBA, he knew what he was

doing. I didn't know what I was doing. So I wasn't rich then, but it was coming. And so no, so we were gonna do what I wanted to do. It was a conversation. It wasn't a caveman thing. It was, do you want to go out and build 2,000 hours, Ms. Duke lawyer, or we gonna do're gonna do this right in front of us Are we gonna do this little thing over here on television that for five? Half hours a week is gonna pay us tons and tons of money and yeah and basketball and other stuff. Yeah Yeah, we literally discussed it and I said if I do this, I'm not doing anything else. I'm not going to the grocery store I'm not taking out the garbage. I'm not doing shit shit There's no honey-do list if I take on all this

We got to have a 1950s marriage. Do you want to do that? What a romantic I mean put it on a homework This happened actually like a couple of weeks before the honeymoon Before the wedding because we had to have the conversation because because the Chicago Tribune was saying, come home. Oh, you were in a bidding war. Oh, you were gonna be the big time come home columnist. They would have paid you tons of money. Skip Bayless took the space after I was offered the space.

They offered you the job, you turned it down. My hometown paper, the paper I delivered as a kid growing up. That would have been the the dream side Of the face was already on the side of buses. They had the ad drawn up I saw it hold on tell me about this so I didn't know this so you had a bidding war for your services between the Washington Post and your hometown newspaper the newspaper you dreamed about being the column voice for when you were delivering David is what age were delivering papers? Yes, Bob Verney, David Israel, Mike Ruyper, from 11 to college.

Okay, so what happened there? Because your path would have been different. You wouldn't have done the Tony... Well, I could have. Jay Marriott thought of this before anybody. Jay Marriott, the Chicago Sun-Times columnist, would have been my rival, though we were, as you know, we're all colleagues. But Skip Bayless is your fault? You're the ground zero the your ground zero for the virus. Well I mean Skip was doing

his deal in Dallas he wasn't doing it in Chicago but I um Marriott called me weekly and he said you got to come home you got to take this he knew about it and because he thought he said WGN is gonna put us on TV the next this is a direct quote and it's not from me I wasn't smart enough. So from Jay Mariotti. He said the next Siskel and Ebert are not gonna be at the movies. They're gonna be in the press box how prescient was that not only prescient Jay Mariotti could have been Tony instead of Tony and Would have been far worse than Bayless and you and him would have killed each other We would have you would have you and jay Mariani would have murdered each other on television We actually liked each other a lot that would have stopped that because they wait a minute

Tony you know how important television relationships how yes brought they are the fact that you and Tony corn high Love one another the fact that he's among corn high circle love one another The fact that he's among your best friends. Yes, he is That would not have happened with J. Mary. No, it's a different relationship. I don't know what it would have been But he thought he was convinced that WGN would have done that and we grew up. I grew up watching I grew up reading Siskel and Ebert. Again, talk about transition, right? You know, the pioneer. Gene Siskel was a columnist at the Tribune before he was on TV. Roger Ebert was a columnist at the Sun-Times.

I grew up reading them. All right, you're not a pioneer, you're a copycat. You're a bogus fraud who steals from others. I borrowed. You're Elvis. I borrowed from the best. You're Elvis. I borrowed from the best.

But so, I was going to go to I every day I agonized over it. I Got I will tell this story. I don't think I don't know if I told it publicly I get a call back. These are pre cell phones. I got a call at a landline at home from the goat the real goat in the NBA and he says Why do I have to hear the cocktail party you're thinking about leaving and coming home to Chicago right for the Tribune suppose I suppose you found out a cocktail party I hadn't told you I'm like you never would have

told me anyway I can't believe LeBron made that so school then. LeBron knew, no he knew before. LeBron was like five. So, so, and I said to him, you know I told him, I said okay, here's the dilemma. And we actually talked about it. And I learned how much I didn't know about money. Talking to Jeffrey Jordan. Well what was the dilemma? What was the dilemma?

The Tribune's offer or the Washington Post, Don Graham's offer. And I literally went through it with Michael on the phone. And he had serious, hard advice, like financial philosophy. Here's what you need to be looking for. And I learned then, of course, because at that point, he's almost at the last dance year. This is the year before the last dance. So he's at the end of his basketball career, playing career. And you realize that guys like him and Charles and I

are working on books and stuff, that they know so much more, even though those guys are four years younger than me, they know so much more about money and finance, business, than we'd ever know as sports writers. Now we know a lot more now than we ever thought we'd know. But at the time, Dan, I didn't have an agent, I didn't know anything. So you stay at the Washington Post and at that time you and Tony are just arguing in the newsroom about…

We're on TV too a lot. We're on TV. You're on local television. Yeah, NBC affiliate. And the chemistry was immediate between you two? Because he was older. We didn't examine it. It was in the newspaper. Tony would write columns every Monday morning during a particular redskin season and he would use me as a foil in his column and That's how it started and Tony would take the apparent differences between us and just you know how he is

He would just blow them up. The apparent differences are white and just you know how he is he would just blow them up the apparent differences are white and black you know New York Jews South Side Chicagoan so Midwest East Coast Catholic Jew all the and I'm not Catholic but I went to Catholic school more product of that educational system and Tony would take these things and he would juxtapose them. He turned you into a character in print before you... He turned me into a character in print and himself into one. And he did this, and we had this in Washington when there was no, when nobody else really knew unless you read the Post. And Tony did it brilliantly and generously and hysterically funny, as you know. But are you proud of the sports television show an enduring sports television show? Where does your pride reside? The

highest pride on what you've accomplished there. Is it lasting 20 years? Is it that you've been able to use a platform in a way that reaches and moves people? Like what are the greatest just Aided it. It's yes 20 years that you got a God, it's gonna be 22 years in October. Yeah, I mean that's ridiculous I don't know that what we thought When we started about years, I don't know that I you know what Dan I don't examine stuff like people will say Why was the show today? I don't know that I you know what Dan I don't examine stuff like people will say why was the show today? I don't know. I

Don't know how the show was well. I wouldn't say with you that introspection that you stop for introspection To be something you'll be right that you have time for because you got to get to the next thing Yeah, I don't see what examination does it just slows you down It just clouds your mind. You don't know. You can have bigger examination of what you do, I guess. There are other people charged with the responsibility of doing that. I don't examine everyday PTI. I never have. There's some shows I feel are better than others. There's some moments. But yeah, using the platform, that's how I get... I never thought I could transition from writing a column, which my columns had grown way too long.

They'd go, you know, we should have been writing 800 words or so, some papers less than that. The Washington Post tolerated 1,000, I was writing 1,200 and 1,400 word columns sometimes. And um... I wish sometimes I was less introspective. I wouldn't stop all of it. You have always been introspective, you've examined this, have always been interested. You've examined this you always have well It makes me question it makes me stop at some of the landmarks and question the worth of what it is that we're doing For a living in one place that I could do it very easily, right?

You came to this revelation late in life, but I've not had kids right, right? I have been married to my job and Making things for for a long time. And at stops along the way, because I have missed out on some things in life that feel deeper, I can come to question the worth of what I'm doing for a living, even as it makes me hugely happy at every turn. Yeah, I never have questioned what I'm doing,

the worth of it. I figure, you know, if people have multiple skills, maybe they can. I don't have that. I don't either. I got the words, and I've known that since the fifth grade when I was sent to the board, the black board to diagram a sentence by Mrs. Richards in fifth grade, and I could do it as well as she could. I knew then, okay, I can manipulate the language I can be literate where'd

that come from I don't my mother my father didn't finish high school not anybody read every day my mother there was reading going on around the house oh yeah they had to be reading they had to be reading there was that that that that makes me crazy about Matthew makes me crazy about Matthew. It makes me crazy about the whole generation. It makes me crazy. But... It's hard to physically get a book in your hands. I was made sad the other day when...

Much less a newspaper. ...the last bookstore on Miami Beach. We've only had one. And then the last one... It closed? Yeah, it ends up getting, you know, not closed, but it gets smaller and smaller. It's a coffee shop. Yes, yes.

You know, yeah. I mean, so that makes me nuts, but I knew in fifth grade I could do that that was that was something that that was my skill. So I never spent any time examining Oh, should I be doing something else? I can't do what else I'm gonna do. I can't do it What am I gonna do? But have you examined that you were responsible for one of the great sports television programs of all time. No, no, not a bit because I think if you stop to do that that's too much patting yourself on the back. I know I sound like a basketball coach now. The older I've gotten the more I believe in Pat Riley. I believe in that. Yeah, but

he's made, he can be a romantic at his core, but he's also He can lament some things he's missed because he's so obsessive compulsive about the chasing of things Yes, you miss out on the miss anything. I miss I miss a couple of things I missed Matthew's first book report. It was on Jackie Robinson And I was in San Francisco without the NBA Finals So oh wait, that would be exactly how many years ago today and I Had tears I felt bad that I missed that and I'm gonna miss I missed basketball games I missed his first I missed a game. I went to a game. I took a day off on a Friday I went to a game when he was in middle school

And so I guess he was in eighth grade and And I went to a game and they said, did you hear what Matthew did on Wednesday? It's too bad you didn't come to Wednesday's game. I said, what'd he do on Wednesday? He had seven straight threes Wednesday. I'm like, what? Yeah, I missed that. And you missed a lot.

Although now you can stream. What kind of shit is that? Will you quit complaining about old people things? Stream. Yes, yes. I'm not streaming anything. I understand your forms. You know when I things? Yes. Yeah, I'm not streaming anything You know when I stream nothing urine if it's not only stream that you have is your

Here's our you know what's on TV on my TV if the on button produces it Why are you so proud of being a grumpy? Why do you do you but you sit next to Tony says I'm worse than him No, you can't be no cannot be so does Eric and Matt You know them you can't call Matt Kelleher after this and say who is grumpier now today in real time How can you not stop Michael? I'm gonna make you force. I'm gonna force you I'm gonna force you to do this for a second. Come on. Come on you were responsible your friendship that I You You were responsible your friendship Just stop for a second receive this please receive this from someone making me a pupil talking to his peer teacher

with gratitude You two around love gratitude You two around love birthed an economy you birthed the family of people who work on that show and All of you have made one of the greatest sports Television programs there have ever been and one of the longest running television programs of any kind There has ever been thought of it in those terms I think Eric Ridehome did that more so than Tony and me. I think of what you just described as the odd couple

with Oscar and Felix. He built it around you. You guys were the... Tony says they put us in the best car. Eric put us in the best car. He built the car. We just drive it. That's accurate. Look I'm'm proud to be, to have the platform every day and to raise the level of discussion in a genre where, you know, let's face it, it can wallow on the floor most days. I'm glad we raised the level of discussion. I will take that much credit. You elevated it. Okay. I'm glad we did. But okay, then we is what you do much credit you do elevated it okay i'm glad we did but okay then we move on that we have another day

and then life ends and you're kissing your dad in the casket and you've never told them that you love them and he's never told you because these things aren't to be talked about her chair even though there's joy in the talking about and the show but it's okay because it would be it worked the way it's supposed to that toughness worked at that time Is that does that work today? No, it doesn't work today. We don't do that today. We don't go without that expression today But it was good that we did that I don't When I said to you I haven't had any hardships I don't have any regrets

None, I you know what else I don hardships, I don't have any regrets. None. You know what else I don't have? I don't have a bucket list. I've done all this shit along the way because I was making sure I didn't do it, I didn't die before I could do it. It's 60. So I've done it. I don't, what do I want? I want like an amazing apartment in Chicago, which I intend to get

So there's an ambition that's left It all has to do with Matthew it has to do with passing it forward. I don't have any bucket list items I don't need to go anywhere or see anything and else I've done that if there's some places I want to I'll get them Need to know no that list is everything's checked off that list and Matthew comes to you and wants to go to lunch, asks to go to lunch. How does that one go? We just did it, we just did it a couple of days ago. It's great, yeah, let's go. So we do.

You know, I mean, I don't know that I examined my father at 15, and I don't know that he can examine me at 15. The reason I ask you the question is because if you've spent so much time articulating what you just did, which is a fear of life ending before you get all of the moments that you want with your son. And he's a teenager, and he has a generational lack of appreciation that ends up being the lament of every parent is to be underappreciated

because he has, he can have no idea at this age not reading books what it is you or your or his grandparents went through so that his life could be a very different black life in America, a very different black life in America than the one that you guys had. I am wondering how much time you are getting to savor all of those moments, because Mike Wilbon, who had a heart attack at 50,

and spent a week of introspection amid the fear yeah before he got right back to work you don't have to have any regrets to know that there are a whole lot of moments in there worth savoring that you're allowed to savor maximum gratitude style in a way that makes a life uh... enriching in ways beyond money i think savoring savoring is by its nature reflective. If you do too much of that you're not looking forward. And so I, and I have trouble letting go of chapters. I'm not good at realizing when the natural chapters are over.

It's awful at it. And I've realized that, which is too reflective. But no, to do this with him I gotta look forward. Pay it forward, look forward, right? I mean, that's what it takes. So now there's much more of that. There's much more of that, happily. And every day, you know, he sends me clips every morning of something. I told him, I said, this looks like maybe the life of a producer, but he didn't want to do anything that resembles anything that I do. So who knows how I'll get it. Or work, or does he want to do work?

No, he wants to play ball. But your work ethic was pretty obviously handed down. He's watching your work ethic. It doesn't get handed down anymore. It's different. These generations are different. I don't mean just my son. I watch enough other families to see. There's a disconnect.

That's the generation gap thing. I go back to that. There wasn't that disconnect between my parents and me. Even though 32, they seemed like friggin old people back then having me at 32 and 33 years old, my parents. But no. So I don't know that he sees any of that. There's, he's a smart kid because I know how he puts concepts together and how he, you know, can come to conclusions and see things that I couldn't see at 15 or 18. He knows more about basketball than I knew at 24. He's known that at 14. We can sit and watch a game and he can see stuff. He's known that at 14. We can sit and watch a game and he can see stuff.

And so maybe I have dreams of him being a scout. I don't know. But all that, we do that. We do that. We, you know, luckily technology allows us to be able to communicate even when I'm not there. So I haven't, I'm never there between, you know how old he was before I saw him on Christmas Day?

He was seven before I spent Christmas Day with him. I spent Christmas Day with Magic and Stuart Scott and John Barry and now Jaylen. There is stuff you've missed, Wilbon. You might not regret it because you love your work. I don't regret it because I had to do, is what you, what it, what? Seven threes hurts though. Seeing your son make that one, I don't know where it would be to do it. Seven threes hurts though. Seeing your son make that one. I don't know where it would be, whether it's the book report or seven threes.

Jesus. Missing your son. Seven threes in a game. And that he didn't brag about it. I'm proud that he didn't brag about it. He didn't run through the door and say, Dad, I made seven threes. Well, you're not bragging about what I'm not asking you to brag about, but the relationship with you and Tony

is a unique one. And if I know Tony and where all his uncomfortable repressions lie, my guess is that you two haven't actually dug down on talking to each other very much about how much you love each other, but you love each other. Like, you love each other in a way that is deeply married, love each other. Yeah, yes. And I guess it is, like you said, obvious. It's probably obvious to the women we are married to joke about it. Carol and Cheryl, they joke about it when they see each

other or talk and it's not all that frequently But I'm sure Tony's children have talked about it. I've heard Michael and Liz make reference But hey, you know what I don't I'm not just I don't come from self examination But why wouldn't you tell the old man how you feel about him? He knows What do we need to? It might also feel good, has it not felt... I've never told you any of the things that I'm telling you right now. None of them have come out of my mouth before. It's great, it's great, and thank you, but I don't need it. Like I know, I know it, I know, you know, it was fun. The last time that he were really great,

11, 12, 13, 14, when I would come and I'd wind up when you would have those great brunches on Sunday and then we'd go to Prime 112 at night, all of that, I know that, I know that. So I don't need to be showered with it. I've never had that, never had that need to be told. showered with it. I've never had that. Never had that need to be told. That's just, you know, I mean, I guess do I need to live in a time where people say everything?

I just think it's fascinating. You are a good profile writer. You are a good column writer. The psychology and the sociology of sports are things that are relentlessly fascinating to you. I'm legitimately surprised as I talk to you to hear you be that allergic to reminiscing or introspection or reflective like to be a little tree. I think a dangerous reminiscing I'm fine with that just means I'm old. The other two, they just, they make you soft. They make you, I don't trust them. What's wrong with being soft? No, everything's wrong with being soft. On the inside, soft. Soft, like you can be covered in armor. Everything's wrong with being soft. Last night I said to Matthew, this is okay, this is it. We will love this. It's okay for men to be soft.

This is at 1.30 in the morning. Men have to always be hard? Yes, this is at 1.30 in the morning in the hotel here on South Beach. And we're talking about- So men have to always be hard. I want to tell you, we're talking about basketball. Again, we're arguing about basketball. And I said to Matthew, we're talking about, I said, you know what? The guys I admired and then knew,

they played in canvas shoes, their ankles weren't wrapped, they played 82 fucking games a year. This year, like seven players played 82 games in the NBA. And I called my son, I called him to P-word. Oh no, no, no. Oh yes, yes, yes. Yes, I said you know what you are? No.

What is the matter? You've gone too far. And you know what? No, I have not gone too far. This is, there's not enough of that. I like men who are soft and sensitive and can talk about their feelings. I don't, I don't like that kind of introspection.

That can't lead to anything good. Can that lead to... Feelings! Feelings! What do you mean? What are you, French? It can't lead to anything good. No. Feelings! Deep, deep loving. I don't trust it.

That's, that's, but that, you know what, there may be a difference there culturally in the ten years. Yes. In the ten. Yes. Well, but Hispanic men can be like this, too. Really? I mean, I don't think I'm a normal Hispanic man rummaging around in my feelings all the

time. Oh, right. No, I'm putting this on your age. The great number, the Hispanic men I know are much more like the black men I know and men of color who have run from this for decades. Yes, you are the exception, but I think it has to do with age more than culture. Maybe I'm wrong. I think it has to do with age.

I think that there are many more of my African-American male friends are much more likely to indulge in this who are 50. Well, and not 60 or older. You know, it's like Sweet Dig Willie. It's like you go, you know, in the Spike Lee movies when there's no sentiment. And it was, it was, it was a Sweet Dig Willie or somebody else who said, you know you know boycott the Koreans I'm a boycott you know you better go boycott that barber who put cut that shit in your head it's I love those characterizations because I think I they're very real I have said before

that among men in insults are the language of intimacy. Very good, Dan. However, there is... Very good. Yes, but there is another layer that I wish for you to receive now in closing here on what it is that we're doing, because my gratitude for you is profound. Thank you. My love for you and the environment that you guys have created that you shared with me is overwhelming. It's not something that I can repay

and it's something that I wanted to say to you when these things can still be said because I think it's important that you, Tony, Eric, Matt, that everything it is that I've been able to do professionally is only because you guys were putting the lights up in front of me that I could watch and steal liberally from because you guys gave us permission I

Receive it. I am honored by it not flattered honored honored. I am a Little surprised by it because I don't have that level of self-examination on any level. It's probably bad. I admit that. It's probably a bad thing. So I'm grateful that you feel that way. I am grateful even more so if we have influenced the lives of the people who are just younger than us, that they have taken something from this journey, I am. I don't readily see it or know it, or even recognize it, I'll give you that. But I think that there is something,

I think there's nobility in not seeing it and acknowledging it and just forging ahead. Because I think if you stand back and admire your own work, you're fucked up. I love you, now get the fuck out of Stu Gatze's chair. Ha ha ha ha! Stu Gatze, your chair. I should leave something bad in it, but I won't do that.

Danny, thank you. Thank you, buddy. Appreciate you, man. Love you and appreciate you. Thank you, buddy. Appreciate you, man. Love you and appreciate you. Thank you so much.