The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - The Best of SBS: Stephen A. Smith

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

Whether you love him or hate him, you've never heard Stephen A. Smith like this before. In this now infamous conversation with Dan Le Batard from March 20, 2023, Stephen shares with Dan how despite all the success, growing up in poverty will never leave him and the controversy that still haunts him today. Dan pushes Stephen to address his relationship with the black community, how he handles the haters and imitators flooding the landscape, if he's getting bored with "First Take", and where things stand with him, Skip Bayless and Max Kellerman. Stephen also tells Dan how his words of advice and a near-death bout with Covid, changed his life forever. Watch Stephen A. daily on ESPN’s "First Take" and his bestseller, "Straight Shooter: A Memoir of Second Chances and First Takes", is available wherever you get your books and audiobooks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We guarantee freshness store-wide in our produce, bakery, meat departments, and beyond, or your money back. Yes, it's that easy. Visit Sobeys.com to learn more. Restrictions apply. See in-store online for details. Hello and welcome back to you, the listener and to South Beach Sessions. We've been off for a few months here resting and recuperating from this furnace blast we're about to throw in your face right now.

The most loquacious of the talkers anywhere in the sports media business, Stephen A. Smith is here to bring back South Beach Sessions with a little bombast. Here he is, the roots of Stephen A. Smith, the entire story. He's a bestselling author. You catch him on First Take,

and he's got big plans beyond all of that. Let's talk to Stephen A. Smith. Stephen A., I wanna talk to you about sort of the first formative years of your life when you're arriving, you know, before any of what's happened now, before you're arriving at 16 years old, what do you look at as the things

that had the most to do with shaping you, the details in your childhood, early teenage years that are imprinted in the way that you're ambitious, in the way that you're boisterous, confident, all the things that you are. Getting left back in the fourth grade and being held back for the entire year because of a first grade reading level. The humiliation that I felt at that particular moment in time definitely impacted me. My relationship with my father, his lack of belief in me, definitely resonated with me.

My mother and her unwavering devotion and commitment to me and my siblings, despite what level of negligence my father displayed that resonated with me and all of us, but especially me from the standpoint that I've always held the belief because of my upbringing. Call it chauvinistic, call it whatever it is that you want to in this day and age, who knows what they'll call it. But I am one of those guys who firmly believes

that a man has a role, and his role is to provide for and to protect his family. And he's not comfortable unless they're comfortable. He's not okay unless they're comfortable. He's not okay unless they're okay. That comes from watching my mother have to do things that I inherently believed was a man's responsibility. And so when I think about the question that you asked, those are the first thoughts that come to my mind

before I even think about anything else. And that definitely shaped me because it made me incredibly ambitious because I was focused on make earning an honest living for myself and my future family while at the same time doing things for my mother that was never done for her by her husband. My mother had three wishes, three things that she wanted all her life. She wanted to go on an annual cruise, she wanted a mink coat, and she wanted a diamond ring. It was a wedding ring. Those are three things that she never got until I was able to get them for her. Do you remember the moment that your dad told your mom he's not smart enough?

Yeah. Um, I got left back in the fourth grade. I came home. Um, the kids in the neighborhoods were laughing at me cause you know, everybody was shorted report cards and stuff like that to each other. And, um, I didn't want to show mine cause I was embarrassed. They insisted on it. They read it and they showed that I got left back again and they laughed and it was very, very humiliating and I went to the back porch and I was crying

in the backyard of my house, my mother's house. And there was a window open that separated, there was a screen on it, but the window itself was open. But there was a, the screen separated the black, the back porch from the kitchen. And my father and mother didn't know at that moment, but my mother was telling my father that I got left back again because I got left back in the third grade. I just got promoted back to my right grade

after the summer was over. This time I was left back in the third grade, I just got promoted back to my right grade after the summer was over. This time I was held back the whole year. And she was telling my father, and my father looked at her and he just said, just give it up. The boy ain't smart. And neither one of them knew the window was open. But it was and I heard it. And my mother heard something move in the back porch I guess

and she walked to the window and she saw it was me and she was just, the look on her face was, she was horrified that I had heard such a thing from him and he just shrugged his shoulders when I looked inside and he went back into the dining room to watch TV. We will get into your relationship with your father because it feels, I think you say this in your book, that you didn't want to put all of this out there against your mother's wishes. You waited to talk about your father

the way that you talk about him until your mother passed. And we'll get into some of those details. But what are the things in your childhood about poverty that stay with you, that stick to you? Damn, never really been asked that question. I think that anybody that's been poor and depraved or grew up in that kind of environment can speak to this limited amount of food in the refrigerator, freezing

temperatures in the house, sitting by the stove because that was the only heat that you had. You'd open the oven and you'd sit by the oven. And that was the only heat that we had in the house at times. Rats, roaches, holes in the roof, unfinished basement, you know, all of those kind of things. And I think that just a whole survival mentality, like not knowing if you were going to have food from day to day at times, certainly not having fresh clothes to wear, day to day at times. Certainly not having fresh clothes to wear. Government cheese, that hard ass cheese that it gave you, the government gave you, white bread, sugar sandwiches

because you didn't have any bologna or turkey or chicken or anything like that to make a sandwich. I remember all of that. And it always stayed with me a lot of times when people look at me today and they say, you know, you never stop working and all of that other stuff. I think that, and I don't think I ever told you this in all the years that we've known each other. And I don't really think I thought about it this way in terms of it being able to be articulated. But when ESPN let me go in 2009, that is the closest that I've ever felt to how I felt as a youngster growing up poor in New York City. I was scared to death that I had lost everything and that I would never, ever be able to capture what I thought I once had.

And to have that feeling in your 40s, which is exactly what happened to me, and to have it remind you of that time when I was, you know, very poor and struggling and all of that stuff growing up, it's the scariest, it's one of the scariest feelings that I've ever had in my life. And I never thought that anything could come close to reminding me of what that was like, because I never thought I'd be back there again. When they let me go in 2009, I went from making $1.1 million to zero.

I had nothing. I had no job prospects. Nobody would touch me, not even BET or TV1. I mean, nobody. And I lived off my savings. I was fortunate enough to anticipate that struggling times could come. So I had spent the previous year saving up money where I still had some dollars in the bank to be able to pay my bills for about five or six months.

But it was still a scariest time. It was one of the scariest times that I had ever gone through. Scary, primarily, if you have to choose, because of the money or because of the loss of identity, because you had a lopsided amount of yourself tied up in this dream and the idea of who you were on television.

I'd say both. You know, for me, as shocking as it may be to people, I don't particularly give a damn about the notoriety. I just accept the fact that it comes with the territory. You know, I was screaming, hey, I was this bombastic demonstrative dude that everybody in the sports world knew. And that's one of the things like the people who know me and the people that are a part of my inner circle, especially my family,

they'll be the first to tell everybody you don't really have any idea how he is because he doesn't get caught up. And the reason I don't get caught up is because the same dude that everybody knew when I was on top is the same dude everybody knew when I got fired. So every place that I walked in the street, they knew that Stephen A got let go by ESPN. They knew that my contract didn't get renewed. They knew that I was off the air. There was speculation that I had blown my career. There were lies being told about me every damn day and every damn week about what I did or didn't do in the office and stuff like that. You've known me for years, Dan. They literally had stories out there at times where

people were talking about, well, he couldn't be reached. He was unavailable when we were looking for him and stuff. I mean, who, who knows that knows me would ever say such a thing. I mean, it's like I work all the time and you had folks when I got let go. Um, they're no longer there, but they had spread word that, you know, I was that guy that couldn't be worked with, you know, that I wasn't a team player. I didn't want to put in the work and stuff like that. These are things that have never been said about me in my life, let alone my career. But that was what was being said in 2009.

And so when you couple that with the fact that I was not, I had lost my job and I didn't have anybody knocking down doors. I went from being one of the preeminent faces on ESPN to being unemployed and untouchable. And for me, that was devastating in and of itself because everyone knew, which obviously was very humiliating

and reminded me of when I got left back. It was that kind of feeling, that kind of embarrassment, that kind of humiliation. But then there was also the fact that I had just become a father and I had my oldest daughter, Samantha. And how am I gonna take care of her? And so when you're thinking along those lines,

it got real, real scary because it was indicating to me that I was going to end up back where I started, which was poor, wondering where my next meal was going to come from. And not only was it about me anymore, it was about other people, meaning a child that I had brought into this, I contributed to bringing into this world. And I had to make sure she was taken care of. So it was incredibly scary. Scared in some ways of being your father,

not abusive or not supportive, but just not being able to do that thing that has become a life principle for you, which is as a man, you are failing if you are not providing. Correct. Absolutely so. And I wouldn't even label my father, you know, when people talk about how I feel about my father,

I never considered my father abusive to me. I considered him negligent. I always loved my father. I just lacked the respect for him. My anger, my vitriol towards him, if that's appropriate to say about him, was his treatment towards my mother and what he required my mother to do. That was where my resentment came in. I don't believe like, like one of those guys, like, you know, all of us, you know, especially if you single and, you know, you date and you live in that kind of life and you're a man and you've got

you've got ladies that are interested in you and you're promiscuous or whatever the case may be. One of the things that always appalled me was dudes that would brag about how they didn't have to treat them to dinner, they didn't have to take them out to eat, they didn't have to take care of them, they didn't have to do this or that because I was always a polar opposite kind of guy in that regard. No, I'm not going to spend my money on just anybody and all of that stuff, but if you're my lady, yeah, I'm taking you out. Yeah, I'm treating you right.

Yeah, you know, I'm going to help you if you in need. That's what I'm supposed to do if I'm the man in your life, because to me, that's what men do, you know? And it's not just to your girlfriend, it's to your sister, it's to your niece, it's to your mama, it's to your aunt, it's to any lady that you love in your life. If you're a man and you got, and you have it,

there's nothing wrong with providing assistance to those who need it if you love them and you care for them because that's what you're supposed to do as a man. You're not supposed to be comfortable watching a woman that you love struggle. You're supposed to step up and try to alleviate those struggles just to the best of your ability. And to me, again, we weren't poor because we didn't have money. We were poor because my father took the money and gave it to his other family

and left my mother to handle it with their six kids by herself. That's where the resentment came from. If you poor, remember the show, Good Times? We all grew up loving James Evans Sr. and, you know, Jimmy Walker, Dynamite and all of this other stuff. What you loved about that show was they were poor as all get out. They were living in the ghetto.

They were living in the projects, stuff like that. In Chicago, that's what the show was based on. But James Evans Sr. was pounding that pavement every second he could to provide for his family. Somebody like that is rich to me because it's not about the money, it's about the fact that you're in it together

and you're gonna go all out to make sure that as a family, you're okay. And unfortunately, I had a dad that did not prioritize that at all. And he left that up to my mother. And that was where my resentment has always come from throughout my entire life. You speak and have always spoken so reverently about your mother, about your sisters, and now about your daughters. It doesn't fit.

You've had very few public controversies in your life for someone who speaks so often on live television. How do you juxtapose the feelings that you have for the women in your life, the women who raised you with your two public controversies, Aisha Curry, Ray Rice, and what happened there where you sounded like someone who maybe doesn't respect women the way that he does the ones in his life? Well, I've never felt the way that you just described. I respect where you're coming from, but you know me long enough to know

that I have vehemently spoken out against others' interpretations of how I've sounded when it comes to stuff like that. With the Aisha Curry thing, that was simply a misunderstanding. I'm in an argument with Skip Bayless. It's after game six of that NBA finals when LeBron and Cleveland beat Steph Curry. Steph Curry ends up fouling out of the game.

He takes his mouthpiece out and he throws it intentionally. He was intending to throw it in the direction of the referee but missed it and ultimately hit a fan by accident or whatever the case may be. He had to be restrained by Sean Livingston and Klay Thompson. Well that day we had seen tweets with Aisha Curry coming out and she was complaining about entering the Gundarina at the time because it was backed up. She was complaining about the officiating. She was ultimately going off after Steph Curry got ejected.

And Skip Bayless and I had gotten into a discussion, a debate about how, you know what? You can't put your guy in that position. You mean it's Steph Curry and anything that you do is going to be a reflection on him. Skip Bayless took his position about LeBron James. I brought up Savannah and how LeBron is constantly under the scrutiny and the spotlight. And you know what?

You never hear anything from her because she recognized the fact that that would have put him in a bad spot. You know, you had people out there trying to turn it into a gender issue. If I messed up, to me, it's what I didn't say. And what I didn't say was, Hillary Rodham Clinton's running for president at the time. Bill Clinton, you have an obligation to protect her.

You know, she is the one running for president. Anything you do could be a potential reflection on her, which could derail her aspirations to win the presidency. So you got to watch what you're doing and what you're saying. I was talking about somebody in a public position and people who are a part of it in the circle and they're in the sanctum who represent them by extension of that. And it was turned into a gender thing. And so obviously it would later cost me the Six O'Clock Sports Center as I wrote in the book because I was supposed to be hosting the Six O'Clock Sports Center.

And that was taken off the table because of that. The whole Ray Rice thing however is different. I think that the whole Aisha Curry thing was just a misunderstanding that was primarily my fault due to the fact that I should have made sure to mention a Hillary Rodham Clinton and Bill Clinton analogy so it would not be perceived as a gender issue. In the Ray Rice situation, to this day, it is the most offensive thing that I've ever had. I've never been more offended than I've been, than I was at that particular incident.

I did not blame ESPN, your friend of mine, John Skipper, for suspending me at that time. I understood because obviously it's Walt Disney that owns ESPN. Shareholders and the like and image and the mouse. I get it, I understand. But to have my name Googled with domestic violence, I have never hit a woman in my life. F-er.

I have never engaged in any sort of domestic, any woman that knows me would tell you that. And anybody who uttered such a thing, I would sue them in a heartbeat. It has never happened in my life. And for me to be on television and take the Ray Rice situation into consideration, we're debating each other.

And in the throes of that debate, Skip Bayless takes his position. It's an obvious position for all of us to take. There's no excuse. You don't put your hands on a woman. You don't engage in that kind of behavior. Blah, blah, blah. That's a given. That was said. What I said was, I mistakenly uttered the word provoke. I said, we gotta be careful to avoid provocation, et cetera, et cetera. And that took on a life of its own because I uttered that word. And from that point forward,

you would have thought I was Ray Rice. I didn't hit anybody. I misspoke. I used the wrong word. But I certainly did not advocate in any way that what Ray Rice did was okay. And because on live television with no delay, no tape and an ability to edit or whatever,

I used the wrong word. It is the first time and the only time in my career that I was ever reprimanded. And the reason why it was so offensive, it was offensive to me, it was offensive to my sisters, it was offensive to my nieces, it was offensive to my mother that I was associated with such a thing. And that's a pretty hard pill for me to swallow. And the hard, and what made it harder was ESPN's insistence that I not talk about it, because it'll just go away. And it's a subject I've never run from, because all I was guilty of

was misspeaking by using that word. I didn't mean it that way. What I'm saying is, I have two daughters, Dan. I have nine nieces. I have two daughters, Dan. I have nine nieces. I have four older sisters. If some no good punk is the kind of dude that wants to put his hands on a woman

and he's so incredibly volatile and she's by herself with him, my objective is to get her out of that situation in the moment that she's in it so she can live another day and we'll deal with him after we get out to get you out of that situation when nobody's around. That's all I was trying to say and for some reason that took on a life that it took on by people who will remain nameless that exacerbated the situation. And the thing that was hard for me is that I could have gotten into it

with those people. But then it would have been calling out innocent folks that had nothing to do with the discussion, which would have highlighted their hypocrisy with what they were saying about me. And I wasn't going to do that. So I let it go. And I had to suffer the consequences. But to this very day, you can Google and that stuff will come up about me. And I've never been engaged in any kind of domestic violence of any sort in my life. Is there another moment with bosses that has been worse than that one for you where you

have to be quiet or you're muzzled on something? No, not really. There have been times where the whole showy and tawny thing, that's on me. I was trying to talk about Major League Baseball and that was construed as me trying to talk about him when I talked about how baseball is not going to market some, uh, a guy that uses an interpreter. I knew he could speak English, but he used an interpreter to make sure it was clear. My point was that major league baseball wasn't going to promote them, but I didn't

articulate myself well enough. I had to own that. So I had to issue a public apology and bring people on the show that would come at me and try to undress me. And I deserved it. Plain and simple. The Aisha Curry thing, you know, to a lesser degree, same thing. The Ray Rice thing, no, there's nothing that comes close to being as remotely offensive as that was. I mean, I still, even as I'm sitting here today in 2023 talking about this that occurred nine years ago, I'm still pissed. Again, I have never been associated with domestic violence in my life.

I'm not raised that way. And by the way, I've had women who hit me and I didn't hit them back. From the time I was in high school and my girlfriend at the time, as I'm getting off the bus because I'm cracking jokes on her and I got the best of her when she was cracking jokes on me, she punched me in the back of my head and I flew into the bushes face first on a quarter or two or third street on Hollis Avenue. To being in college and I don't want to date a girl anymore and she slapped the living hell out of me three times.

To having my tires slashed. To having all types of threats thrown at me. I still have never touched a woman in a violent fashion in my life. It has never happened. I was so for me, so for me to be associated in any way with domestic violence, you know, it is a very, very, very hard pill for me to swallow.

It is a very, very, very hard pill for me to swallow. But I've had to swallow it because you can't control what people think. I was surprised to see you write in your book because it's not a philosophy. It's just not anything I've ever considered for you to say that you go in to work in the morning thinking, how can I make my boss's money? How do I go about making my bosses more money?

It's not a thought. Well, that's part one. What about part two? I did mention part two is getting some of it. Don't let, let's not leave that out. I didn't sit up there and say, get them money and nothing and stop there. I said getting my boss's money. How do I make my boss's more money? How do I get some of it? That's what I said.

What's wrong with that? I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. Why are you taking from me? It's just not a thought that ever occurred to me. It's probably why I'm not there and you still are. Well I'm just saying, I'm not saying that you're saying there was anything wrong with it. I'm asking a question. I'm like what's wrong with that thinking? The reality is is that when you're doing business and you're about the business of making money, you got to make sure that the people that you're working with are getting paid, too You know, I don't care if it's your staff if it's your partner if it's a sponsor Whatever the case may be you've got to be in business for them just as much as you're in business for yourself If it's all about you and it ain't about anybody else, how successful do you think you're going to be? That's my philosophy. That's my mentality.

And I take it a step further where it works for me, Dan. Years before, I was like that. That's about me. I'm the man. I'm Stephen A. They got billboards up. They screaming my name in the streets. I'm a pretty popular dude. And then guess what?

I didn't have anything. Yeah, you knew who I was, and you remember the billboards was up, but I wasn't getting a check. That popularity wasn't paying my bills. I was stuck because I thought I was worth more than they thought I was worth. And I had no evidence to prove my worth because I didn't master my business. So as a result of that, I had to be humbled. And that's what happened. So while I was going, I said, where did my mistake lie? Very, very simple.

I was too busy thinking about me. And I wasn't thinking about those who employed me that I'm getting money from. And when I'm getting money from them, okay, why am I getting money for them? Because I'm thinking about what works. And as a result of thinking about what works, what has happened? Now I'm thinking more just as much about me as I am about them. Because now that I've made them money, I learned how I made them money. Now I'm learning how to make it for myself.

And it all comes forward like this. It all comes around like that. That's the mentality. This is a broad question because I can't speak for the entirety of the black community. None of us can. But I don't know what your relationship entirety of the black community. None of us can, but I don't know what your relationship is with the black community. I know that when you go after some black athletes in public,

that is frowned upon and you get criticism that I imagine you don't care very much about, but what would you say is your relationship with your community? I don't think about it at all. And I'm gonna tell you why. You know, it's almost similar to when people were upset at me with what I was saying about Colin Kaepernick at the time.

And they were talking about Max Kellerman and how he was gonna be invited to the barbecues. And I said to them, go to hell. I'll have my own barbecue. You see, this is the thing that it's like, I'm a black man. I'm a brother.

You don't get to define, I'm not talking about you, Dan. I'm just talking about generically. You don't get to define who the hell I am. I am who I am. Some black people gonna like me, some black people gonna hate me. Who gives a damn? What I care about is who I am, what I stand on, what my mentality is, etc. That's not to say that I'm wrong, I know I'm wrong and I shouldn't care.

I'm not that human being. I'm not that man. I'm the kind of man where if I'm wrong, especially if I say something that's wrong publicly, I will turn around and apologize publicly. I want to apologize in private over something I did in public. To me, that's what a man does. That's the right thing to do. But if I'm fair, if I'm humane, if I happen to be correct and I'm

thorough enough and I don't get personal, I can't be worried about what people are thinking. I have a job to do. I can be pretty immune to criticism too. Life as a columnist will make you that, but I would assume that some people you respect, if there are any, hitting you with versions of Uncle Tom or whatever, I would assume that that is a poison that you don't want in your life.

I don't want it in my life, but I accept the fact that I can't control it. And they're not gonna disrupt my sleep at night. And they're not gonna disrupt the quality of life that I've built for myself. The reality of the situation is I don't know. And maybe because I'm not knowledgeable about various other communities, but I don't hear other people calling their

own stuff like that. Black folks do it to each other. We got to do better than that. Why can't you just disagree? Why does it have to be that somebody's an Uncle Tom? Why does it have to be that somebody's a sellout? Why does it have to be that somebody's a sellout? You know, if we want to really get deep in the woods about it, let's say, for example, when I'm on the air and I'm talking to black folks about corporate America and some of the minefields and the pitfalls that lie in wait, you've got people that are sitting up there,

ah, Stephen A, Mr. Capitulation, oh Stephen A, you know, dancing around the issues, oh Stephen A, he ain't keeping it 100. Well, is the person that's telling you to go down this dead-end road, to go into this pothole, or this pitfall, they supposed to be keeping it 100. They're telling you, they're sending you down a path that ultimately is going to lead to your demands. Who's selling out?

The person that's looking out for you and giving you the heads up as to what's waiting for you? Or the person that's ignoring all of that and sending you down a dead end path that's ultimately gonna F up your life. Who's doing that? And I walk out in the streets and I see people, they got their thoughts about what they have to say

or whatever, they forget what the background is. I started in journalism. What's one of the first things they teach you, Dan? You can't be worried about being liked. You gotta do what's right. And in the process of doing what's right, you got to be as fair and as humane as possible and try to strive to be as thorough as you possibly can be. But if you're fair, if you're humane, if you're thorough, and your opinion or perspective just differs from somebody else, and they

can't take it, and they resort to calling you names and trying to denigrate you and dehumanize you and all of this other stuff and make you a pariah in your own community. You've got to have something in you that says kiss my ass. You got to have that because if you don't have it you'll fold. You'll fold and you will capitulate to their demands. They will compromise your ability to do what you signed up to do. And then when it's time to pay your bills,

where they gonna be at? Well, I ain't tell you to do that. Hell, you made that decision. That wasn't me. You on your own. Don't look at us. So I'm like, okay, fine. I'm doing me. Do fine. I'm doing me. Do you.

Let them do themselves. I look at my career. Okay, that's fine. We can say whatever we want about Stephen A. Look at my resume. Look at my resume. Look at where I started. I love when I go to games, for example, and stuff like that.

I'm in a press box. I'm in a press box. I'm in a locker room or whatever the case may be. And everybody acting like, you know, look at him. Who does he think he is? Whatever. Damn it, I'm you. I was in the press box.

I was in the locker room. I was a beat writer. 17 years. I was a general sports columnist. I climbed my way up in this industry. I lived off of tuna fish and Kool-Aid. I'd make a 15,000 a year. I had to work at night for free just to build my journalism career. To get started. Archdale, North Carolina. High Point, North Carolina. Atlanta, Georgia.

Winston-Salem Journal. What haven't I done? So when I look at it and they want to talk about me, I'm like, you know my name is spelled pH, right? It's not over the V, it's pH. Spell it right. Make sure you spell my name right. Let's get it on. It's okay because what this industry entails and what we've been asked to do to succeed. Dan LeBataard knows my resume is there. It's right there for everybody to see, pull it up. I earned what I have.

Nobody gave me a damn thing. Would you have been content remaining a beat writer? Like if I'd come up to you in whatever it was, the, the sixth year of being a beat writer and, and said to you, uh, what are your wildest dreams from here? Would they have looked anything like this? No. Um, I didn't see the money that I'm making now. I didn't see the popularity that I have now.

I didn't see the opportunity that I have now. Hell, then I'm in movies. I got a recurring role on a soap opera. You know, I only have my own podcast, I own it. I own my own production company. And I've had a show. I'm the star of a show that's been number one for 11 straight years in county. I saw success.

I didn't see that. So all that tells me is that God has blessed me and he's graced me. I'm incredibly appreciative of it. I don't take it for granted, but I'm also not a fool. It ain't gonna last forever. Somebody else's time will come. Well, you write in the-

Likely sooner than later. You write in the book, Stephen A. I mean, I was surprised to read this in the book. You sound bored with first take. You really do. I'm not bored at all. But no, but you sound, I'm saying you sound like you've outgrown it.

Like that first take is confining, that you wanna do other things that are much larger than first take. And you say this, that first take isn't gonna get you there. Well, it's not because of first take. It's because of the other things that I want to do and whether or not I'll be able to do that working for ESPN.

I've got a little acting itch finally. I never had it until now. I'm probably going to take acting lessons this summer. I have a desire to be an executive producer and to build my production company, Mr. SAS productions with scripted and unscripted content. Um, I definitely want to continue to build my podcast. People like you have been an inspiration to me.

I've known you for years. Um, I know, um, I've known you for years. I know how you think, I know how brilliant you are, and I know how brave you are to bet on yourself, and I respect it and appreciate it. All of those things resonate with me. But there's also late night television that I want to do. You know, there's a lot of things that I want to do that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the ESPN or how receptive are they going to be to that?

I don't know the answer to that question. I know that I'm incredibly happy. Um, doing first take, I hate getting up in the morning to do it. Cause I would like to be able to hang out a little bit later so I can get up a little bit later and go to work the next day as opposed to getting up six o'clock every morning in the seven thirty meeting and then being on the air at 10 a.m. But considering the cache that comes with it the kind of impact the show has been able to have I'm open to doing that for years to come just so long as it doesn't limit me from doing

other things that I want to do. If it's going to limit me from doing other things that I want to do, then in two years, I'm going to have decisions to make and everybody understands that. I understand that ESPN has any right to move in a different direction if they so choose and when that time comes and it's time for a decision to be made, that decision will happen. And that's that. You have said that you have a lot of enemies and a lot of friends in this business. Who are the people at the top of both of those lists?

I'm not giving you the people at the top for the enemies. There's a couple of no good bastards that I can't stand. And they ain't hard to figure out who they are. But I won't give them the time of day by even mentioning their names. My friends are in abundance. When you think about Brian Gumbel, when you think about Mike Wilbon, when you think about Kendrick Perkins and all the folks that contribute on the show. Marcus Spears, Dan Olavsky, Ryan Clark, Kimberly Martin, uh, you know,

Ma, you know, Monica McNutt, of course, Molly Kerim, uh, and the great job she does, um, just the, you know, Bart Scott, you know, I mean, just, I mean, everything, Damien Woody, the whole crew, um, you know, people like that. And then people in the industry like Steve Weiss at the NFL crew, you know, people like that. And then people in the industry, like Steve Weish at the NFL network, Michael Irvin is a friend, obviously. You know, Keyshawn Johnson, my brother, you know, is just so many people.

I almost hate mentioning names because I don't want to leave anybody out. I'm quite sure I will. Well, the question stinks if I don't get the enemies. If I don't get the enemies, the question stinks. Like you named a whole bunch of friends, but if I don't get a single. If I don't get the enemies, the question stinks. Like you named a whole bunch of friends, but if I don't get a single enemy, all of a sudden the question stinks.

The answer is- You're not getting an enemy. Well, it seems obvious that I'm not getting an enemy. I'm just saying I don't want any more friends if you're not gonna give me an enemy. Like you give me too many friends. If you're not gonna, you gotta give me one enemy and I'll tell a story I haven't told before.

That's fine. You don't have to. I'll tell the story with or without your help. I don't even know if you remember this, but I did try at one point to repair a relationship with you and another journalist. Yes. And I would assume that he might be at the top of the list,

but you don't even wanna. Yes. You don't even wanna. That is accurate. You don't. And not only that, without saying his name, I'll tell your audience what I said to you. I said, do you value our friendship?

And you said, yes. I said, then don't ever mention his name to me again. I remember not to mention it right now. Then I meant it. Yeah. Yes, you took a hard line on that. And all I was trying to bring was peace, peace between brethren in our industry.

You know, you call him whatever you want. I have other names that I would call him, but that's for me to say to his face, not on the air behind his back. Prime Day is here. With great kitchen deals, greatness is a deal away. So if you love baking, you can get a deal on a new mixer, transforming you into the Lord of the Loaves.

Here ye, here ye, make way for the barren of brioche, the salty enough sourdough, the Lord of the Loaves, Prime Member Dave! Yeah, uh, hi? Shop great Prime Day deals now. Why are you in Skip Bayless Brothers for Life? I appreciate what I wouldn't be where I'm at today in this business, in my opinion, if it were not for Skip Bayless.

That's one of the reasons I was so pissed off when, um, last year he was, uh, you know, he went on this podcast and was going off, uh, because he misconstrued something that I said on a podcast. Um, got very defensive about it. It was about who deserved the credit for first take, right? Wasn't that something along those lines? But he was saying something about, you know, how they were doing just fine and it was Tim Tebow and the ratings and all of this

other stuff. And I was like, that's not what I said. What I was talking about was what you told me. You needed me because I was the only one you could trust. I didn't sit up there and say, you were failing. I said, you said, if I'm going to do this for the long haul, I need someone I can trust. And you're the only one I can trust. And so when that happened, I flew to LA. I was on my way there anyway. But I flew to LA specifically to see him at that point.

I had canceled plans and stuff like that just to make sure I saw him. Because I told him I didn't care about any of that, he said, I only cared about one thing that he said. He went on this podcast and said he felt stabbed in the back. I said, I need you to look me in my face and tell me that I stabbed you. I've always admired that about you, man. You go and you go and you meet people. You make people say shit to your face.

Yes, I will because, you know, I'm very, very big on character. I'm not perfect. Not the most smartest dude in the world. I don't know everything. I'm not always right or whatever, but I'll put my core decency up against anybody's. I don't get personal. I don't get into people's personal business. You know how much stuff I know about people that I cover and I report on and stuff like that. In one ear out the other, see, close my eyes, turn my head.

I got nothing to say about your damn personal life. Stay out the police blotters. Don't put yourself in the news. I got nothing to say about your personal life. It's all about the game. It's all about what affects the game. That's it. I don't go any further than that.

And so to me, particularly in this day and age and the salacious times that we deal with where everything appears to be clickbait and people are willing to sell their damn souls for a bunch of likes for crying out loud, I don't roll like that. And so when there's people that I know and who I believe know me and I have undeniable evidence as to what my character is and who I am. And that's brought in a question, you damn right I'm gonna confront you.

You damn right I'm gonna confront you. Because I'm gonna be like, where'd that come from? We could disagree. We have a difference of opinion, but to imply that there's some character trait that I'm deficient in when it came to you and I, that was very offensive to me. And for him, I told him flat-out, I don't give a damn what you say. You take all the credit in the world for first take forever.

I don't give a damn you doing undisputed for the last six, seven years. Still take credit for first take for all you want to because guess what? I wouldn't be on first take if it wasn't for you. So you damn right you deserve the credit. What I wanna know is, you said I stabbed you in the back. When the hell that happened? That's what I wanna know. And for that he apologized and I've been fine ever since.

I hate what you two have done to sports television. You can say that all you want to. I would say who the hell are you to sit up there and say me and him? What about you? What the hell were you living under a rock, teaching at Miami U? You were part of it too?

You ain't innocent? I'm talking about all the imitators that you have birthed. All of the imitators that you have birthed. All of the imitators that are all over the place thinking without the journalism credentials that the point of all this is to turn it into an argument on television. Well I would take on Bridget what you're saying in this regard, Dan. those people who don't have a journalism background, who don't exercise journalistic ethics and beyond, how are we responsible for that

when our background is based on that? Skip Bayless was a journalist for decades. I was a journalist for decades. We came, we come on television, and those ethics are applicable. The fact of the matter is that when I take a position, it's the same kind of position I would take right in a column. The difference is, instead of writing 800 words and being limited to that space, I get to talk for a few minutes on each subject. When was it, when did it happen that I ignored the fact that I was a journalist

for the Winston-Salem Journal, the Greensboro News and Record, the New York Daily News, and then the Philadelphia Inquirer before I went to CNNSI and then Fox Sports and then ESPN? When was it, when did it occur in my career that I ignored the journalistic tenants that came with the job?

Oh, it's not ignoring them. It's that they shrink in the face of the need for the argument as entertainment. It's that Kellerman offers too much nuance, so we have to make it, in the form of entertainment, we have to, it's not that it's ignored, it's that the journalism becomes less important. It's the argument, it in the form of entertainment. We have to, it's not that it's ignored. It's that the journalism becomes less important. It's the argument, it's the sparks.

It's the debate that needs to be carried. Yeah, but where you're missing the boat, and I'm actually surprised that you're missing it, Dan, is that it's not about us. It's about the money. The fact of the matter is, is that somewhere along the lines, social media came into play. And even with YouTube, you have the ability to monetize your product. People look at whatever it takes to monetize those

products that you know their product, and they prioritize that and that dictates what they do. If you are a guy, if you are on social media, and guess what, you don't have to go to college, and you don't have to take 18 credit semester hours like I did each semester, and you don't have to get a bachelor's degree, and all you gotta do is go on YouTube, talk smack, find a way to build subscribers and viewers per episode,

and monetize your brand, and you get to bypass all of that stuff. And there's an industry that's been put in place that allows you to do that, and you've elected to do that just to get paid. How the hell is that Skip Bayless and Steven Ace for? Or Dan LeBretard for that matter, or anybody else? They created those platforms.

It's allowed to be monetized. People see that that has the potential to pay you more than a $75,000 to $90,000 salary working in newspapers. Everybody don't have space for you to do talk radio or a television show. So you figured out a way to do this rather than punch a clock, work a nine to five in corporate America at whatever job you're doing. And that's basically been more beneficial monetarily to you. How is that Skip Bayless, Dan LeBattard, Stephen A, Will Bond, Kornheiser, or anybody else? Well, I don't think entirely, right,

that this category that I'm talking about is something that I fit in, just because you and I have had a long relationship. I don't think we've ever had an argument on or off the air. Like, I don't, the argument is not something that I pursue. I'm not saying it's not good for television. I'm not saying that.

I just know that the show that you did with Skip Bayless was one kind of show, and then the one you did with Max was a different kind of show, at least in part, and you've said publicly, that you didn't like how Max wasn't interested, as interested in the argument, in the sparks as you were. What I'm saying to you is this. If people want to watch Dan LeBretard and they've come to know Dan LeBretard, they have an expectation of

what they're getting when they click on the Dan LeBretard. And if you want to stay in business, you have to give the audience to some degree what they expect. Long before First Take was ever number one, PTI was. PTI with Mike Wilbon and Tony Kornheiser have been number one for 20 years. First Take's been number one in the mornings for 11. Nine years before we ever came along, nine, ten years before we ever came along, nine, 10 years before we ever came along, they were doing it. So I should blame them. I should blame them.

No, no, no, no, what I'm saying is, no one said it about them. No one said it about Around the Horn, which was their years before we arrived. No one said it about Jim Rome or what he's doing. And you know how great Jim Rome has been. The list goes on and on. Mike and the Mad Dog. Mad Dog screaming good.

Mad Dog been screaming since 1987. You mutated it, though. It's fair to say that you turned up the volume on all of it, that there are more flames around what you guys are doing. Are you gonna sit up there with a straight-faced Dan LeBattard and say, I turned up the volume on Mad Dog Russo? No. Have you lost your mind?

On the argument, on Wilbon and Kornheiser, you guys turned up the volume you guys? Hey, okay What I'm saying is is that I just named you a plethora of shows that existed before we ever came along That's what I'm saying. We didn't create it We saw what was there and we maximized it to the best of our ability, just like you do. Stop that.

And you know, you'll go into what you don't like or whatever, and I respect that, you know that. But what I'm trying to say is that you ain't no innocent birdie and all of this. You've attacked many people over the years. Now you might have had a platform where you're joined with dudes and y'all are not a debate show. So you're not debating somebody, but you've gotten into debates on your own show with people. You've gotten into arguments on your own show with people.

I don't know if that former executive for the Florida Marlins will ever be in business again, after the way you excoriated him, because you were upset at the assets that he traded away. You have been holding people accountable for decades. And because you don't have somebody to volley back off, you know, volley off back and forth with, oh, you're innocent, you're not.

You're a part of it too. And I'm saying it's not a bad thing. It's a great thing. Because your intellect, your perspectives, and everything in between are very fresh. They're informed. They're not ignorant. They're not devoid of facts. The fact of the matter is you bring a fresh perspective and there's a lot of people out

there that want to be Dan LeBatault. So why are you trippin'? How do you... You right here with the rest of us. How do you feel? That's all I'm sayin'. How do you feel, how do you think Max feels? How do you think Max feels about all of this? About what happened with you two?

I have no clue. What I would tell you is, I'm kind of sad in this regard. I don't want anybody to assume Max Kellerman doesn't work hard. Max Kellerman is a bad person. Max Kellerman is not somebody anybody's you want to work with. That's not what that was about. It was about the fact that a debate show requires certain things

that I believe he did not bring to the table when it came to sitting opposite of me. If his brother Marcellus Wiley was sitting opposite of Max Kellerman, I'm quite sure not only would they have had a successful show, but they would have had a blast doing it because their personalities, their presentations, their deliveries, et cetera, worked for them, just like Skip and I worked for me.

Max Kellerman and I, as far as I was concerned, did not work for me. It was not a show that I wanted to be a part of for years to come. Now, to me, if I'm saying, man, get rid of this dude, fire him. He don't deserve a job in this business. That's an entirely different matter altogether, which I have never known what I ever say. But me saying, yo, this is not the partner for me. There is no crime in that.

I ain't apologizing for it. I'm not taking it back. I'm not stuttering. I'm not mincing words. That is how I feel. And guess what, Dan LeBretard? I love you to death. I'm not mincing words. That is how I feel and guess what Dan LeBretard? I love you to death I'm not sure I would want to sit across from you two hours a day five days a week and I think you're great. What you and I together. I'm not so sure no wouldn't work

So right that doesn't make it that doesn't make it a crime and you got people out there acting like it's a damn crime to say yo And you got people out there acting like it's a damn crime to say, yo, got love for you, you good peeps. I wish you not but the best. I know you gonna have this opportunity and this opportunity available for you. I just don't think me and you could work together. If you have Max on Sports Center, or he was doing a boxing match and we were sitting on a panel together discussing boxing, I'd have no problem with him.

We were doing sports and I had no problem with him. If he wanted me on his on his show, This Just In, to interview me for a top, I got no issue with him. I'm talking about specifically and expressly as it pertains to a debate show. To me, he and I were not an ideal pair. I said it before, I said it again, and anybody that asked me, I'm gonna say the same damn thing. I ain't stuttering. That's how I feel.

And I said feel as in present. Not just two years ago, not just a year ago, not just four years ago, now. But the purposes of a debate show, he and I didn't mesh. I'm sure he'll mesh with a lot of other people. You write in your book that your life was altered, your perspective was altered by your experience with COVID.

How? Dan LeBretard has been getting on me for years. As my friend for over 20 years. I need to rest. I need to take some time for myself. I'm burning the candles at both ends. Don't kill yourself. I never paid attention to it, I never listened.

Because I never felt that way. Then COVID hit. You got double pneumonia, you got a cough that you can't shake, you're laboring with your breathing. Then at 1030, on New Year's Eve, to bring in the year 2022, in the hospital, the doctor says, after nearly three weeks of COVID,

we're going to try this steroid and it's antibiotic. If it doesn't work, you're gonna have to call your family. You're in trouble. I don't know. I guess only people who've been through that can explain it. I'm not in the greatest shape in the world, but I ain't in bad shape. I work out a few times a week. I don't smoke. I'm a casual drinker at best. Never more than two or three drinks a week.

And I could not run up a flight of stairs without gasping for air. I couldn't believe what happened. I got relatives that smoke a pack of cigarettes a day. They got COVID, they were fine in three days, but I'm struggling. I did look at myself. I couldn't believe it. I did look at myself. I couldn't believe it. And for those few hours where you're wondering if the steroid and the antibiotic is going to work,

once the doctor tells you that, it's like, oh shit, I can't believe this is happening. And then I remember my daughter's, daddy, you ain't taking this seriously. Yeah, you're wearing your mask and all of this other stuff, but you annoyed and, you know, you, you, you, you, sometimes you cover your nose, your mouth, but not your nose and all of this other stuff. Dad, you got to take it seriously. Dad, dad, come on. Nieces and nephews, same thing.

And I just got tired of being so scared that sometimes I got lax. And lo and behold, I get COVID and they telling me it might take me out of here. So I just reflected on life and realized that no matter how much I love work and what I do, I gotta love me a bit more. And I gotta make sure that I take time for myself to enjoy the fruits of my labor to the best of my ability

because I can't take work with me to the grave. You can watch him daily, Monday through Friday, ESPN's First Take. You can listen to his weekly podcast, No Mercy with Stephen A. Smith. And if you want more insight into who he is, why he thinks the way he does and says the things he does, I urge you to get Straight Shooter,

a memoir of second chances and first takes, available now wherever you get your books and audio books. Good catching up with you, sir. Much love. Much love, my man. Take care, man.