The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - The Big Suey: Billy "The Fireman" Gil

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

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Get up to $2,700 when you open select small business banking products. Yep, that's $2,700 to turn up your business. Visit td.com slash small business match to learn more. Conditions apply. Welcome to the Big Sui presented by DraftKings. Why are you listening to this show? The podcast that seems very similar to the other Dan LeBattard podcast. I'm sorry, I'm not going to apologize for that. In fact, the only difference seems to be this imaging. I have been tempted in restaurants just walking past tables to grab somebody's fries

if they're just there. That hasn't happened to you guys? I've done it. And now, here's the marching man to nowhere, fat face, and the habitual liar. This episode is presented by DraftKings. DraftKings, the crown is yours. Grateful to have Amin,

and he was at all the finals games. I want his takes that will echo throughout the off season because I do believe it was, even though he predicted that that's what it would be. And OKC was the best team from the start of the season until the end of the season. And it wasn't much of a surprise, but it wasn't terribly satisfying either, which I'm confused by my feelings there. I don't know if I'm reacting that way to youth. I don't know what I'm doing because it was an overwhelming regular season team

that I wanted to see be overwhelming against Indiana, and I never did. Yeah, and by the way, that seems to be the case with almost every one of these teams. That's amazing, right? Think about the Warriors, their first their first championship amazing but then that finals they were down to one in that finals think about the Miami Heat amazing

right amazing collection of talent but yet even in their first championship forget about losing to Dallas even the first championship the path there wasn't quite overwhelming right so there's always's always a, it's never as easy as it looks. And there's so many variables, because at the end of the day, there's a big difference between, I play Milwaukee on Wednesday, and then Friday I go play Chicago,

and then Sunday I play Minnesota, versus big boy, you play me every single day. And all I'm doing is devoting all my resources to learning your weaknesses and trying to stop them. I thought Indiana would have had an advantage if it had been like a 30 game series. Yeah, we joked about that. It was like faces in nine after game series.

But no, because I couldn't believe that Indiana got OKC to play four games that were the four worst games that they've played all season in terms of assist to turnover stuff. Where they weren't, I didn't recognize them as a team given that I'm watching something that is historically great at turning other teams over and never turning the ball over themselves.

To see them have, it was four games where they had more turnovers than assists. No, that's like, I just couldn't believe it. They happened to win one of them. The one where they made three three-pointers. Right, but then I would argue that game one was the other way around, where they had all the turnovers forced

and they had all the assists and they lost that game and they probably shouldn't have lost that game. So I think it washes out. But the point is, like everyone, even the most indestructible, they all have something that they don't like being done to them that if you've confined it and if you have the personnel, you can impact it.

Then I always talk about like, when you say, oh this team is gonna beat this team in a seven game series, how many times, we played that seven game series a hundred times, a thousand times, how many times would that result happen where we think the favorite would be the underdog? In some cases, like 999 times out of 1,000, right? They're gonna win, right?

In other cases, it's like more like 501 times out of 1,000 that they're gonna win. And in every case of that, the underdog winning, it's you gotta find the right combination of things. And some of them are things you can control, some of them aren't, right? So 2016, the Cavs beating the Warriors. Some of it is like, right? So 2016, Warriors beating the Cats, I mean, the Cats beating the Warriors. Some of it is like, hey, we need to attack these certain things.

Hey, Steph Curry isn't healthy, attack that. Some of it is, Andre Mongris got suspended. And Andrew Bogut, and what's it called? And Andre Goodall got hurt during those finals. Oh, and by the way, Harrison Barnes, we're going to let him shoot every single time, right? And all of those things need to add up. And then LeBron needs to make the best defensive play

in finals history, and Kyrie needs to hit one of the biggest shots in final history, and then Kevin Love has to be I-sote against Steph Curry, one-on-one, and he's gotta get a stop. All of those things needed to happen in order for the Cavs to beat the Warriors. There's a lot of variables, some of them you control, some of them you don't.

There are a number of things I wanna get to in basketball, okay, including drunk. Ok see players and the story with Josh Gronke, but Before we get to that do the Celtics make all of the same moves if Tatum's healthy they make so I think I Absolutely think they would have shed salary now would I think it would have looked different right so for instance trading for Amphorny Simons look different, right? So for instance, trading for Amphorny-Symonds, probably not what they were gonna do because Amphorny-Symonds with a healthy Tatum

represents an overkill, right? Like they don't need more scoring at that point. Port Zinke is for George Nyang, just like here take him. I don't think that happens. But I think some form of salary shedding happens because as we were talking about in the last segment, there are basketball reasons not to be in the repeater tax, right? As I said, if you're in there long enough, they take your first round pick and they move

it to the end of the first round. You get the 30th pick, no matter what, even if your repeater tax only got you the 20th best pick regularly. Nope, it goes all the way to the end. Is that lottery protected? Ain't no protections, buddy. Take it all the way to the end. Is that lottery protected? Ain't no protections, buddy. Take it all the way down. Imagine you win the lottery and...

You wouldn't, you wouldn't even be in the lottery. If you win the lottery with a repeater tax, you're a bad team. That's the point. They're trying to make you see, so you know, hey, don't you dare. You can't aggregate salaries in a trade. So for instance, if I wanted to trade,

you saw Kevin Durant got traded, right? He couldn't be, it couldn't be Kevin Drank and Caleb Martin, because they're above the second apron. So they take that away. Obviously, the lower mid level exceptions, your first round pick seven years out can't be traded. So hey, I'll give you my 2032 first. No, you can't. So there are all of these things that handcuff the hell out of you out of improving your roster. Plus, you got't. So there are all of these things that handcuff the hell out of you out of improving your roster, plus you got new ownership coming in.

Nobody cares about this conversation. We're on the week. I was just back here like, whoa. Unless you're that deep into the game, unless you're caring about every single team in the NBA and you want to know all the machinations of value and all of that, why would you care about this? You shouldn't have to know all of these things

to be able to digest why a trade happens, but it's why you don't understand why this player gets traded for four first round picks while this player only gets traded for one when the disparity between their play is a gulf in the other direction. Right, so I think that might be a place of curiosity for some people, wait a second,

why did he only go for this versus that but for the most part if it's not my team people don't care, right? The NBA I think does a lot of Unfan friendly things these days and all of this like everything Amin just talked about Boston trading Chris apps for jingis for George niang. It it's the most unfan-friendly thing I think the NBA does, because fans don't understand, why would they do that? Why would they trade him for George Nhiang? I'll draw you a chart, man. It's, I got a team, oh, my team's getting good.

Oh, we're really good, we're competing for the championship. Oh, we spend money, oh, we're in this championship window. Maybe we win, maybe we don't. And then at some point, no matter how much we win, it's like, all right, some of this shit gotta go. And then we go all the way back down. It's a cycle. It's created, this is the parody that everyone begged for.

Well, this is the thing though, when you've got seven different champions in seven years and- Eight. Eight now, right, excuse me. And this last one was not surprising at all if you were watching all season, but because of the way the last seven have gotten, you didn't think, have gone, you didn't think that it was a foregone conclusion. There was not trust in what the OKC team did during the regular season.

But what I will tell you about those finals that was confusing to me as someone who really admired the way OKC played, you saw the tom haberstrom numbers right the paces made seven hundred and five more passes in that series than ok c yes like when you talk about stylistically what it is that you'd root for when you've got that the shithead as bob ryan calls him a titan titus saying that that sj that sj sga is a disgusting MVP. The reason is because of the style of play, is it not? I'd prefer to watch 705 more passes than what OKC was doing.

You got real close to calling him Sarah Jessica Parker. Are they screen actors guild, yeah. It is seven straight, not eight. Horseshoes and hand grenades. Don't do this. I'll do it. I'm looking at Wikipedia. I thought it was seven going into this season. I'll do it for you. Just watch.

2018, Warriors. 2019. They won again in 22. Watch when he realizes. He's saying not competitive. Not back to back. He's saying we've had eight different champions the last eight years. We didn't have any back to back champions.

I think it's seven. I've never heard anyone make that point you just made. There hasn't been a repeat champion in eight years we didn't have any back-to-back. I think it's seven. No, you guys are saying eight years. I've never heard anyone make that point you just made. That hasn't been a repeat champion in eight years. It's a semantics game. Right, yeah, you're right about that, but I've never heard anyone make that point. The repeater taxes. There you go, I'm first.

Wait, repeater taxes, you get taxed if you win back-to-back championships? The thing that I see happening with our show that is delightful and it happens more on Wednesday than any other day is that when someone tips over the garbage can and the fire leaks out, Billy jumps out from the shrubs like just really excited. That's why they call me the fireman.

Really excited to be like, let's argue about whether it's seven or eight. No, I'm helping out. I'm actually trying to put an end to that argument. He said semantics. I'm saying it's just a semantics thing. You're both right. It's not semantics.

No, it is semantics. He's right in that it was eight different teams. You guys are right that it was seven different franchises. This is a semantics argument. You both are right. No repaints in there. Semantics, whether he's right or not. He's right that it's semantics. Thank you. That's why I invitedids in there. Semantics, whether he's right or not. He's right at semantics.

Thank you. That's why I invited you in today. And I said, he's gotta be here, man. Big day for the association. No one covers the league like a mean. See you at the watch along later. Yeah. Wait a sec, that's a baseball one, sorry.

What time is the draft at, at like eight? No, right around the same time. Really, six? That's early for a draft. What's the perfect time? Because eight is too late and six is too early? I guess it's seven. There you go There you go way to go Billy. You did it by yourself. It's semantics just closing loops today. That's what today That's what you are

Chris knows his godparents now Let's close that later. Shall we okay? Okay loopy. Yes. I want to ask a mean later shall we okay okay loop yes I want to ask I mean Jordan pool was also traded yesterday and I'm wondering if a very highly paid successful champion basketball player is going to be associated with only one thing that doesn't have much of anything to do with basketball the rest of his career when I say that name in a trade in a transaction do you guys think first of anything else other than punched in the face by Draymond Green? Is that what he's going to, no matter what

his career is, is that what's going to be on the Jordan Pool resume at the end? And was never the same after that? Punched in the face by Draymond Green and then was never regarded the same after that? Some would say he was never the same before that either. He had like a good series in the playoffs, a couple of good games. They rewarded him. But I mean, I was not really enamored with Jordan Poole's game before they won the title, let alone before the punch. And so to me, it's just like, yeah, this is kind of who he's

always been because I remember getting arguments with Warriors people like, no, you got to see and I'm like, yeah, this is kind of who he's always been. Because I remember getting in arguments with Warriors people, like, no, you got to see and da da da. I'm like, I'm telling you, he looks like someone who doesn't understand the value of what they're doing there. It's like, oh, yeah, so we just get to run around and shoot three. Well, no, not exactly.

It's like, no, no, no, I get it. We should run around and shoot three. He's like, no, there's more to it than that. No, I got it. I got it. And he played that way. And then he got punched in the face and then he played that way but didn't play as well and then he got traded and then rather than go to Washington

and say, okay, reinvention time, this is my team, I'm gonna show everyone that I am serious, I'm not a joker, whatever, he treated it like an absolute joke and I'm gonna tell you why, Dan, when you look at what Washington did, right, what they've done basically since the trade deadline, where everyone's like, what are the Wizards doing? They have C.J. McCollum, they have Marcus Smart,

they have Chris Middleton, this makes no sense. They did that because what they had was a locker room of young people looking up to people who aren't good examples of how to be a pro. Kyle Kuzma and Jordan Poole. They did not behave in a way that's like, that's what I want my young people learning. I'm not kidding you when I tell you

the Washington Wizards this year before they traded for Chris Middleton as a basketball team, when they played, I watched a couple of their games and it offended me the way that they were playing basketball. What was the moment you realized? It was Poole and Kuzma, they're being so sloppy with the basketball. like they don't care about the basketball at all

It's just like Valerie. Can you believe that Valerie? I'm offended Am I wrong though, I mean like it when I think of two teams in basketball this year that offended me It was the Wizards and Charlotte on occasion the way that they would use ball that offended me. It was the Wizards and Charlotte on occasion, the way that they would use ball. Oh, you think they the way they use the lamello ball or the way they use the ball? Both. I think one of those is a lot more offensive. Let's put up Chet Holmgren here and the sound of him slurring his way through the speech. How did you guys feel about yesterday's parade here at OKC?

It started with Clay, Sam, and Mark for believing in me enough to bring me here in the first place. Because without them I'm never even here. Alright, let me lock in. Should we put you on the mic right now? It's our show. If somebody misspeaks and everyone else pounces. Was anyone else worried that Chet was gonna tip over while holding that trophy? Not for Chet, for the trophy. Like, they looked like they were trying to get that trophy

away from them to not dent it or anything. Put it on the poll at Levitard Show, where you worried that the trophy would tip over Chet. So we had Chet seeming a little drunk on stage, which is fair, and then we had Chet seeming a little drunk on stage, which is fair. And then we had SGA on Good Morning America. And I don't think it's drunk he's being accused of, but I think it might be a little stoned.

Jay Gilgis Alexander, give it up all for SGA. Getting up and joining us this morning. That's how you say it. How does NBA champion? Did that have a good ring to you, SGA? Yeah, it's everything I imagined it to be. The opportunity has been amazing, and I'm just, I'm happy and I'm blessed to be a part of it.

Okay, have you been asleep today? Have you been, cause he's a little sleepy. Did you get any rest since last night? I got some rest, not as much as I'd like, but you only live once. Was winning a championship a burden to the Thunder and like Oklahoma City? They didn't celebrate when they won.

They rushed the parade like a day and a half after they, like the quickest parade ever. I don't know how they, they must've been planning to win this for, I mean, they wrapped the buses like three days early which is a ridiculous decision but then you're on Good Morning America you sound upset to be there because it's too early like did we inconvenience them by making them NBA champions here? To be fair man Good Morning America is on very early and

Oklahoma's an hour back and he didn't go to sleep the night before he went out he had a good time man you wake him up and then you put makeup on him and say you gotta answer these questions. That's not a great, yo, come on, guys. He's not stoned. Like, he's got those tired, dry, heavy eyelids from not sleeping. And a lot of alcohol consumption the night before.

Seems like a very reckless thing to accuse him of, to be honest. Yeah, how dare you, Chris? On Good Morning America. I have a question for you guys that I had never considered until yesterday, which was the buses that they ride around town with, that they wrap with the championship 2025 NBA champions or whatever, right?

I had never considered what happened to those buses after the parade until Monday when I came in and saw one of the Florida Panthers Championship buses just doing its regular job of hop on, hop off, driving around, and I just see it with like Panthers, NHL champions driving around right in front of the building. I'm like.

Stanley Cup champion. Yeah, there you go. They didn't unwrap it? No, it was still wrapped, and then I'm wondering, well when do you decide to take that off? Like when you sell an advertisement? Like I would keep that on forever if I could, right? I saw another one that was completely white,

so they had taken off of one, but then I saw another red one that looked like it was coming from the parade. I'll tell you, so one of the things that I was thinking about a lot in the aftermath of game seven was, before the game, pre-game press conference, Rick Carlisle started by saying,

hey, I saw a video, they already had the buses wrapped, you know what, that's all I can think about. And I turned to the guy next to me and I was like, yo, that's some real great shit talk, unless they lose. Unless they lose. But then Tyrese gets hurt and all is forgotten, right? But like, I was like, what about them buses, huh? Let's play the sound here of Jalen Williams. All is forgotten, right? But like, I know, I was like, what about them buses, huh?

Let's play the sound here of Jalen Williams. He's the 12th highest paid player for the Thunder. I know that I mean, and I think some other people had some objections to me saying that OKC has sort of rigged the system. You get the fixed costs with your draft picks, and all of a sudden you can keep players in OKC maybe longer than they'd like to be in OKC. But before we get to that conversation, let's play Jalen Williams saying that he doesn't

drink and he's going to start drinking now. Yesterday was my first time drinking ever. Like I never had a drink up until that point. And the beginning of the season, the guys want me to drink. That's like the big thing for them. I don't know why. But I told them to get it here. I was like, when the championship I'll drink, I'll do whatever you guys want. I'll drink champagne, we could do shots. So we kept getting closer during the season. I was like, I'm gonna have to drink. So I drink a little bit. I had a couple shots, champagne, I had beer, it was all disgusting. I

will stick to Shirley Temple's. I had a lot of those yesterday and a lot of water. Okay, so you've never drink it before. You think champagne is disgusting. You think all shots are disgusting. So you'll probably, are you never gonna do it again? I'm retired. I can't speak on the parade though.

I don't, I don't. Okay. I don't wanna. Yeah, I put it on the poll please. Did we inconvenience the Thunder by making them win the championship at LeBotard show? There's something about when somebody doesn't drink, everyone wants that person.

We had Danny around here. He's not a drinker. You bring him out, it's like, Danny, you gonna drink today? Come on, you want one? He's just like, no, I'm not drinking. All right, great, great. You guys are great.

I love leaning on people who don't drink and making them drink. That's what they did with Jalen Williams all year. They're like, are you gonna drink? When are you gonna drink? Why do people want people that don't drink to drink? He was asked this question post game about like you know your upbringing he's like yeah my

parents were I would call it a God fearing household and he has this very long thoughtful answer and then he says but then I had alcohol at the end of the answer it was so funny Dan they didn't know how to open the champagne bottles they literally sat around like do we watch a YouTube tutorial and Alex Bruce had to come in and like no guys this is how I don't know how to open the champagne bottles. They literally sat around like, do we watch a YouTube tutorial? And Alex Ruse had to come in and like, no guys, this is how you do it. I don't know how to open a champagne bottle. Really? Nope.

As a two-time champion. Not a champion. Nope. Well, that's not true. But I don't drink champagne. I don't know how to drink champagne bottle. I'm embarrassed all the time at the number of corks and things that I ruin because I can't open any of those things. You guys, you don't know how to open a champagne?

Man. I mean, I can, I can. 20 cv. You need a sword. I want someone to pour it for me. Pour it? Yeah whatever. You don't pour champagne. You spray that thing you let everybody know that a real champ would know. Yeah. Looking for a new way to get in on the action? NASCAR betting on Draft Kingsings is where speed meets strategy. Whether it's a super speedway, short track, or road course, no one brings chaos quite like NASCAR. Every Sunday brings new ways to win. Bet on winners, top 3 finishes, stage winners, head-to-head matchups, and more.

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It's the only kind he tells. It's the short one for me. I tried to speed it up for you guys. You forgot about the leagues cup. Stugats. Yeah. La Carreta is a place where the best of the celebrations has to be the 97 Marlins celebration

because it was Lavaht Well, when Fidel died the first time. This is the Dunlavatar Show with the Stugats. I mean you're so busy yelling you didn't hear Billy say that he would have opened it with a sword. That's a trick that people do, a a party trick and then you don't need To figure out how to do it you just go you go right across the edge of ego Can you guys get me a champagne bottle for Zazz to try and open here at some point?

There's a lot of fine certainly we would have champagne here somewhere. Let's get to this pretty confident today. I'll do it Oh, there we go. We got the sword. Let's get to this crunky sound What did you guys make of this, the Denver Nuggets owner saying this out of nowhere? For us as an organization, going into that second apron is not necessarily something that we're scared of. I think that there are rules around it that we needed to be very careful of

with our injury history. The wrong person gets injured and very quickly you're in a scenario where that I never want to have to contemplate and that's trade in number 15 and so you know we're very conscious of that pushing forward. Dan it would be like no who's talking about that nobody but you sir. I never want to contemplate this but let me bring this up. Let me be the only one who's thought of it. Like something so out of the ordinary, like it would be like asking Dan about his diet and say, you know what, I would hate to eat the wrong thing

and then I have to divorce Valerie. Like, wait, what? Do you think there's a single person before that press conference that's attending, it's like, I think you might mention Trayn Jokic. I think if you're the PR person, you have to tell him, look, there's only one thing we're not going to mention today. 15.

The only reason that doesn't get warned is because of the fact that no one would ever think it could even come to his mind. Very quickly you're in a scenario where I never want to have to contemplate, and that's Trayn number 15. You just contemplated it. Sounds like he has contemplated it. You just contemplated it. No one was contemplating it, sir. I want to never have to contemplate it.'s trading number 15 you just contemplated sounds like he has contemplated it no one was contemplating it so i never have to he's just spitballing in the middle of the press con to be fair nobody

that i never want to have to contemplate and that's trading number 15 nobody thought about trading 77 that the contemplated though again though no one spoke it before doing it though either if in in actually tony brings up a point if If the Mavericks had said that something similar the news would have just pounced on it and then you don't make the trade So maybe now they see this reaction Sound like a weather balloon where he was maybe gonna think about doing the trade now It's more dangerous if the general manager has never mentioned it. Put the feeler out there I think that they started receiving calls like,

so I know you'd hate to contemplate this, but what is this gonna take? Cause like, obviously he will be available at some point in time or you would not have said that, right? He's not gonna be available. Hold on. Why would you say that unless it's a possibility?

If you're like running an NBA team and you don't make a call that day to be like, hey, so we kinda heard old cronk say this crazy thing. How crazy is it? What is it gonna take to make that crazy situation happen? You wouldn't be doing your job if you didn't check in, right? Billy, what can I interest you with Tyler Hero and Bam Adebayo for Jokic?

Dude, this team is never gonna trade Tyler Hero and Bam for anything. Not putting him in. High tower, high Smith. You stop it. Billy, did I hear a zip it up from you at Cronky this morning? Yeah, I mean, you should, right?

Tell him zip it up. Like, why are you even out there talking? Especially if that's what you're gonna be doing, zip it up. He can't be saying that. Can he be saying that? It's the one thing he can't say. He can say anything, he's the owner. I know, but why is he even talking?

Because it was a press conference introducing their new front office. Dan is gonna get a kick out of this. Dan, their new front office is Ben Tenzer and John Wallace. Ben Tenzer, who I worked with at Summer League in 2012, John Wallace, who I scouted when he was at Georgetown. Did you get a kick out of that? Well, I want to examine that saying for a second.

Get a kick out of it? Jeremy, look up the origins. That's not how you get a kick out of it. That's not how you get a kick. What is getting a kick out of something? What is getting a kick out of something? Like what, I so. Let me see that kick again.

It's moving, yeah, it's moving. This is where, ready? It's clicking the heels? No. What is getting a kick out of it? Is it when you whip a horse, you get a kick out of it? Like, ah! Like what?

So, no, to answer your question, I didn't get a kick out of it. No? No. You don't think it's weird that people that I worked with, or even worse, that I scouted, are to have now ascended to the very heights of running an organization?

It's sad, honestly. The way you phrased it, it kind of made it sad because you're here. What? Nothing. That I never want to have to contemplate. Tony's telling everybody that he thinks we should have all seen the Halliburton injury coming. I mean, it just feels so obvious, right? Like we see what happens with KD, calf strain, Achilles. We see what happens with Jason Tatum. We see what happens with Damien Lillard. Now we see what happens with Halibut.

No, the calf strain isn't something you should be playing through. But it's a game seven. It's a game seven. We heard you have to play. Everyone plays game seven. Well, you don't think you should? It's what I live for.

Who's that? It's what I live for. I'm trying to figure out what. I'm Mike Ryan the other day. Oh, you're Mike Ryan. You're Mike Ryan. I worked my whole life. Wow.

I worked my whole life. Game seven. I'm insulted for Mike Ryan. I like that Mike Ryan. I like the limited fake Mike Ryan who looks like Bert Kreischer. All your life. All your life you've lived for this. It's what you live for. Game 7.

Play. It's Mike Azaz though. That's what we were saying back here. That's the greatest of the characters. Mike Azaz is arguing with Zaz. I'm offended by that. Not as offended as I was by the wizard before they traded for Middletown. It just feels like more and more NBA guys are dealing

with these Achilles injuries. And Jeremy had brought up a good point. Like, is that going to turn into the Tommy John of the MLB, where now Achilles is the one thing that used to be a career killer And now guys are going through it like if it's almost like a meniscus repair. It's like alright We're gonna get scoped with this. Let's rename this. Hold on the doctor. Who's the doctor that does these main surgeries? Is there one guy who does the doctor was a doctor Achilles? Let's call it the Haynes. Yeah, dr Haynes, they got this first name. We need to rename this injury. We've got the first Achilles injury. That's really the big Achilles let's call it the Haynes. Yeah, dr. Haynes. They got this first name. We need to rename this injury

We got the first Achilles injury. That's really the big Achilles Achilles Obviously, it's Achilles, but if it is it Kevin Durant, that's the first member But I want to ask because because you're saying it like Tommy John, the difference is guys get Tommy John and they come back and they're fine. Other than Kevin Durant. Better honestly. Other than Kevin Durant, who's come back from the Achilles and was just fine.

But it used to be a death sentence in baseball too. It's still a death sentence. Right, so what I'm saying is this is the origin of it becoming Tommy John surgery. Because what started happening when you saw this ascension of guys getting Tommy John surgery because what started happening when you saw this ascension of guys getting Tommy John surgery, it was because of essentially what is AAU baseball because you had kids

pitching and only pitching from a young age. You had guys throwing curve balls earlier at a younger age, specialized training for the specific muscle groups that only have to do with baseball, not playing all season, all year long in different sports and training different muscle groups. And so you saw more wear and tear at a younger age on the UCL. Now in basketball, we're going through this wave here

where we've talked about it, guys like Jason Tatum, who have gone through AAU basketball and trained from a super young age on a specific group of muscles. And now you're seeing the wear and tear that comes from that. So you wonder if the specialized training and load management in the same way, innings management is only hurt the, the rate at which Tommy John is increased. I think that we're seeing sort of a similar pattern to what we saw at the

beginning of this escalation of Tommy John surgery, but you can't predict that Achilles injuries are going to then become like Tommy John where you now become back stronger. That's not necessarily what I'm saying. I'm saying more I'm worried that this is the new, hey this is about to spike over 10 years because of the way we're training our players. So we did a whole episode of basketball illuminati that's out today about this right about this concept that, because people are saying they need to shorten the season and it's like, it's not the number of games. Thanos has ruptured his Achilles,

you think it's because he was playing too many basketball games? No, it's because of training from a very young age, specialized training over and over again and then the other part that you didn't leave in into the Tommy John conversation is, it's an unnatural movement, right? It is a-

Just like throwing a baseball. The elbow was not meant to have that amount of force and torque on it over and over and over again. And because people are bigger and stronger and throw harder, the pressures are even higher. Same thing with this Achilles. It's because the bodies are bigger, they're faster, they're more explosive. This, the human body was not meant to withstand all of that and

that's what's happening for sure the one thing though I was thinking about is well Tommy John how'd they fix it well they found this surgery that's amazing so they didn't actually like fix any of the other symptoms of like hey let's have the kids train less hey let's have the kids be less specialized. No, no, no, we'll just have a surgery and then they'll be fine. But here's the thing that you're not understanding though about the differences between the two things

because you're not necessarily a baseball fan. Yes, both of the things are things, the pitching motion more than anything, it's not meant to be done like that by human beings but now we've gotten to the point in baseball where the big arm wants to have that surgery early and then resume his career whereas the achilles it there are eight i've fear that hella burton will never be the same in terms of quickness again

it's not the death sentence it used to be. People come back faster than they did, but when the specifics of the surgery are, one makes it better and one gets you back faster, but your lateral speed and quickness is not gonna be the same, and he kinda needs it the way that he plays. No, that was my point. My point is baseball didn't solve the problem

by addressing the symptoms earlier on that led to this. They just found the surgical procedure like, ah, good as new. And so basketball doesn't have that equivalent. We've got to address it earlier, but nobody wants to. I got a kid who's 14 playing in the AU, and you can't afford to be like, okay, now you're going to go play volleyball because all these kids are working year round and they got trainers and they got, and they're at AU and then high school

and then all these other club teams that they're playing for, they are constantly working and getting better. You get left behind and it does very easily. So is it a bigger product of like, can we diversify kids' game more or is that just dead in the water? Like you can't do that anymore, you're gonna get to a point

where your kid is playing basketball, Tony, and you're gonna have a decision to make. It's like, okay, am I gonna put my daughter in volleyball now, or softball, or whatever, as a season switch, so that we're not getting that wear and tear? She stays active, right? But she's still staying active, but what's gonna happen is when she comes back to basketball,

all these other kids have been doing basketball the whole time. And it's like you're blown away by the skill level. I mean, it's crazy. I remember scouting and you go months on the road watching college basketball and at most you'd see one or two shooters per team. And now my kid, 14 years old, every team we played against had at least three or four knocked down deadly shooters. I'm talking about in game. years old, every team we played against had at least three or four knockdown

deadly shooters. I'm talking about in-game. If I have a window that's open this big, I'm knocking it down. I'm like, holy shit, I remember you used to go to the park and like all day long, he's not a shooter, all right he made a couple now close-up. Now you got to stay at home on everybody all the time. And I asked my buddy who trains kids and I said, how the hell did it get this good they're all going to jim's and they got the gun and they're shooting a thousand shots a day on the gun like what's left stephan made all possible like it doesn't make sense that he's on a magic carpet out

there playing a different sport than anyone else and making an accessible to young people because now everyone wants to play that way and we're living in the renaissance of whatever that age is gonna be in basketball. You're already not liking how many threes they're taking in games, and smaller dudes are all gonna do what Trey Young does, because that's the only way for them to get into the league, is can I make it from 40 feet?

And the evolution of those things is what makes a baseball now be thrown 103 miles an hour, and makes it now that it's not one or two guys you see shooting from the logo. Oh, there's Halliburton. He can do it too. They're all doing it. And baseball, by the way, another evolution in baseball is I don't need a guy who pitches seven innings anymore, right? We're just going to burn you out real quick a couple of innings and then we're coming in some other.

They're discarded. Maybe like that's another evolution in basketball. Desmond Bain's going to be a dinosaur in nine years. Desmond Bain, they're going to be 40 dudes in the league that can do what Des... Bain does. Because if you're exploiting the market inefficiency of Orlando and Houston are only bad because they're the ones that can't make the shots from three? By the way, if we're talking about like the way that it worked in baseball, now there's no salary cap there, right? But the best teams in baseball, even the Dodgers, have several positions at which they're

platooning. Their depth is really their greatest strength. What did we just see in the NBA finals? Having an extreme amount of depth was more important because what, if you can disperse minutes and have a whole bunch of guys who are only playing 20 to 25 minutes who you actually genuinely trust, well, you have fresher bodies. And that's essentially the same concept as,

hey, your starting pitcher's only gonna go two times through the order and then we're gonna mix and match with all these relievers who? Are fresher with the perfect matchup against the perfect guy it? It's sort of the same concept and I know for baseball. It's been a worse result for a lot of people You know, I'm curious. I want to ask you guys a baseball question What's the baseball equivalent of this because in in basketball, somehow people saw that and said, it's the shoes. And I'm like, what are you talking about? You think high tops were gonna save that tendon?

Like, what are you, an idiot or whatever? So what's the baseball equivalent where they blamed it on something that has- The sticky stuff. The sticky stuff. Really? We started blaming Tommy John on sticky stuff in the last like five years. And when it got outlawed,

clearly part of the sort of leak to some of the bigger reporters and writers was like, talk about how the sticky stuff in the last like five years and when it got outlawed, clearly part of the sort of leak to some of the bigger reporters and writers was like talk about how the sticky stuff is a big part of what's happening with Tommy John when really it's the fact that guys are chasing, throwing 105 miles an hour. It doesn't matter if they have the sticky stuff or not. The sticky stuff?

That's what they refer to it as. It's exactly what you think it is. The sticky stuff. Like tar. Rosin? Yeah. Rosin it is. The sticky stuff. Like tar. Rosin? Yeah, rosin tar spray. Little pine tar. Under one umbrella, the sticky stuff. Sticky stuff.

Can you guys just get me the video real quick and just put it in the picture in picture of Joe Negro when they caught him on the mound scuffing a baseball and the umpires gathered around him and he took the nail file out of his back pocket and tried to throw it past the umpires Can you guys just get that video? What are you laughing about there Billy? Just a mean face as soon as you said his name Whose name Joe?

What? Joe so he's on the mound. Okay, and the umpires are surrounding this Nikro but and Okay, and the umpires are surrounding this Negro and He's clearly cheating and he's got a nail file in his back pocket and he tries to throw it past the umpires Behind them. What are you talking about? Process was good exactly brilliant So what do you mean me? Yeah, we've all been there? Now question, did that happen before or after the Naked Gun?

You remember the Naked Gun, he goes up to the guy because he's searching for the gun and like the pictures got like sandpaper and rosin and all this stuff on him? I think that, I think Naked Gun was first. I was wondering if you guys were interested, did you like the trailer to Naked Gun with Liam Neeson where he's actually a badass but he's also doing the I eat too much fart jokes. Like he's just, he's doing Frank Drebin, but he's also the guy from Taken, which is a, it's a funny evolution of Naked Gun.

So this is the amazing thing. Leslie Nielsen, a lot of people don't know this, originally a dramatic actor, right? And so when he did Airplane, like part of the reason why that role hit so hard, because everyone was looking at him like, this very serious guy doing these dumb jokes like, Shirley, you can't be serious. I am serious. And don't call me Shirley. Right. So by the time he does Naked Gun, now he's effectively changed his whole career

to I'm a comedic actor. I'm really rooting for, wow, look at that. Well done. Like, and you dropped that. That wasn't me. It's like like why do you have a nail file he blamed it on palermo he blamed it on frank look at frank palermo he's like what that look at the um's hand on his face he was like are we really doing this you look at it wait wait hold on it almost worked look one guy only one it almost worked Almost go to pick it up like oh ump you drop something yeah, I'll help you