The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - The Big Suey: First Fake

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

Amin Elhassan and Andrew Hawkins launch their new show: First Fake. Amin and Hawk battle it out in a debate style program analyzing several topics they have done absolutely zero research on. Which of the two will come out victorious and which of the two will accidentally spit on the other? It's time to embrace debate. Then, Pablo Torre is here to tell us about his new episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out, but instead, he spends most of his time explaining to us how he is somehow "cool" and "a jock" on MSNBC. Plus, Jordan Brenner and Peter Keating of The Underdogs discuss the unwarranted stigma around analytics in sports. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Giraffe King's Network. Feeling lucky? All bets are on Bookie, the hilarious comedy from Chuck Lorre and Nick Bacay starring Sebastian Menescalco as an old school bookmaker just trying to stay alive in a world of bad beats. Does a house always win? Find out as Bookie returns for season two, December 12th on Max. Please watch responsibly. Get a credit card annual fee waiver and earn C plus points faster

with the Scotiabank ultimate package and bank more entertainment. Learn more at scotiabank.com slash banking packages. Conditions apply. Scotiabank, you're richer than you think. Welcome to the Big Sui presented by DraftKings. Why are you listening to this show? The podcast that seems very similar

to the other Dan LeBattard podcast. I'm sorry, I'm not gonna apologize for that. In fact, the only difference seems to be this imaging. I have been tempted in restaurants just walking past tables to grab somebody's fries if they're just there. That hasn't happened to you guys? I've done it. And now, here's the marching man to nowhere, fat face, and the habitual liar.

Today's episode is sponsored by DraftKings. Stay tuned because you'll hear more about DraftKings and all it has to offer throughout the show. DraftKings, the crown is yours. ["DraftKings Theme Song"] ["DraftKings Theme Song"] I want a damn levitard for Christmas. Only a damn levitard will do. No Stu Gots, Billy O'Roy I want a dead lebitard to play with Andy

Joy I want a dead lebitard for Christmas Only a dead lebitard will do No Mike Wright, Lucy or Tony I really like the Delevatart Only the Delevatart really likes me Mom says Dan would eat me up but then Teacher says Dan is a gluten-free human I want a De LeBittard for Christmas Only Dan LeBittard will do None of the Cody's are not even smelly

I really like Dan LeBittard Only Dan LeBittard really likes to do And I'm gonna be talking to you like, ooh. This episode of The Dan LeBattard Show is brought to you by Smirnoff. We do game days. Please drink responsibly. The Smirnoff Company, New York, New York. That song, both strange and self-involved,

not unlike our next guest, Pablo Torre finds out is the name of the very popular podcast that Nick Wright calls the world's most expensive podcast. We will get to that in a second. But Pablo, I need your help with Andrew Hawkins and I mean both of whom say, and they've shown it, they've proven it, that they can fake a take on just about anything, especially in their area

of expertise, if they have not seen the game the night before. We wanna play first fake with Amin and Andrew Hawkins. And I think I need to kick them out of the room in order to do this. I don't think that, I think that needs to happen in the other room in the penalty box. And I need to ideate with you guys

on what it is that we're gonna do do on first fake what is that what are the topics going to be there's got to be a football topic there's got to be a basketball topic they have no information and they're going to be able to fake it because i do believe and rod as i believe this game's too easy for andrew hawkins not alike with matthew stafford that he gets bored by the easy elements of this game and he can do the fakery better than he can do just you know Whatever get going out there bored and giving you football analysis. Dan Amin is a master Talker right he can talk about anything at any point to anybody right? I've seen it in action sober not sober

I got my money on Amin to win the first fake. I Like the upstart. I like the novice. Andrew Hawkins has a polish that Amin doesn't. He's not a novice. Guys, he's actively doing this for a living on ESPN. He's doing it right now. He's refining his skills on the internet. This is a dangerous game that we're playing.

Amin also is somebody who famously can talk to you about his own dreams for hours and no one's sure if he made those up. So he seems very squarely in his wheelhouse. Well, we need to have him, you know, I believe there's a competition going on now at Metal Art for all the space and all the money and all the places where it is that we have to fight

for the things that we believe in. And I believe when I call Andrew Hawkins a novice, I'm talking about around here. I mean, we've got a sage veteran who's been doing the take game and making fun of the take game and i mean like he's he's old and tired man look at his face like he's you know what happened is he all right is he all right i'm just saying andrew hawkins comes in here he smells good he smells like confidence he smells like i'd like to do all of the things

better than these people around here do them. He's not coming here to be a peer. He's coming here to get past us. He's already passed us. And I believe- Didn't Andrew Hawkins invent like a virtual reality system? I just saw that on the internet the other day. I was like, wait a minute.

He's not some ragtag upstart. Even around these parts, he walks in, he commands a room. He's the man. Okay, you can do all you want in terms of supporting all the things Andrew Hawkins is. I believe he is those things as well. I also believe that he's about to dust a meme.

No, says Tony. No way. All right, let's take our bets now before we do this, because we're gonna get to this in a second, but go ahead and take our bets. Just tell me who you got, who you got, one name. The guy that's doing it presently, actively for ESPN. I'm going Andrew Hawkins. You know where ESPN. I'm going to Andrew Hawkins

You know where I stand I'm gonna I'm gonna go with the mean is this comfort zone. I got a mean no means playing hurt I'm gonna go with Andrew Hawks confidence is too high right now I mean Alhassan is absolutely gonna destroy Andrew Hawkins at this Roy brought up a good point though. He's playing hurt Best ones do you know what they tell their bodies not today today all right, so this is pretty dramatic Do you guys have a football question? I want to go football with both of them Basketball with both of them, and then I want to go to a subject that neither one of them know anything about Can you're hosting the debate desk damn you're throwing out the football topic all right? Let's go to the other room and see what we have here and again

This is all born of the Chargers beat the Broncos last night 34 227 fun game Charger defense all of a sudden can't do anything right? There's an advantage to going first or going There's an advantage to going second here. I will go out to you first Hawk on your area of expertise Can you please explain to me why Jim Harbaugh has been good at coaching defense? But why that defense which was best for points per game the entire season The last two games all of a sudden is getting shredded pretty good

Look when you're at this point in the season, you have to understand that things change, right? It's like that sophomore quarterback slump. You go out and you have a great first year and then defensive coordinators adjust. They figure out what your tendencies are. This is what happens late in the season. For Jim Harbaugh, him understanding both sides of the ball when you brought him into Los Angeles, you knew that's what you were getting.

Not just the guy who can tutor the quarterback with all the ability in the world, but also his understanding of defense, bringing in mentor. And in these moments where they go down by a whole lot of points and they surge back because of that prowess, because of that knowledge that he has on both sides of the ball, December is when you get the most from your head coach. Look at this Dan Leventhal, he didn't even answer your question, he didn't even address your question.

The question was the defense is great and has been shredded the last two weeks. You know why Dan Leventhal, I'm going to tell you exactly why that's happened. Because they figured him out. Because the book was out. You know he comes in, yeah he's been in the NFL before, but he's been gone for a while. So a lot of guys they don't know what he's doing, what he's thinking or whatever. So he comes in with some new stuff and everyone's like, oh, how do we adjust? But guess what? The NFL, anything else, is a study league.

It's a league where we get playbooks and other playbooks and we watch and we learn and we make notes. And we see what worked against other people and what didn't. And what's happened in the last couple of weeks down at Leviton is the league has figured him out. I think Amin, I think Hawkins has actually, Hawkins concedes defeat there because Amin spit in his face with a swollen lip. They take notes. If you asked me which guy is the former football player dealing with a lifetime of football injuries,

I'd be like, it's the guy with the fat lip who is cognitively impaired, but also very sharp right now. Hawk, would you concede that Amin won that because he said, take notes in your face and spit spittle in your face. He said it like twice. And it was a lot.

And I couldn't hold it in at that moment because I like tapped out by looking at his face. And then when I came back to, he was yelling notes with such emphasis. And I'm like, what is going on here? All right, so one other thing Ameen, and it wasn't notes, it was notes. Notes, yes.

Let's go to Ameen now. Ameen, please explain to me why it is that Joel Embiid cannot get along with Philadelphia and if you believe he's not tough enough well Dan Leventhal I think when you talk about Joel Embiid there's a lot of things going on number one is I never want to fault a guy for getting injured we like injuries happen Brandon Roy Penny Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill There's so many great players Bill Walton whose careers were shortened and their legacies were impacted by injury at the same time I don't think Joel Embiid does himself any favors when he talks in the media talking about look at all

I've done for the city even though they haven't got out in the second round of the playoffs since Allen Iverson was on the sidelines there. Even though he came back not to run in the playoffs but because he wanted to go to the Olympics he came back for a good show of face to play in the playoffs for the Philadelphia 76ers. These little things, these little microaggressions as these kids like to call it, those are the things that do not endear him to a city that otherwise would love him. Also, one last thing, he ran the scapegoat out of town.

If Ben Simmons were here, nobody would be blaming Joellen B for anything. True lack of leadership. His ego is swollen like a mean's lip. That is the issue with Joellen B. From a leadership perspective, you cannot go out of your way to show everybody how much you care about personal accolades. You cannot go out of your way to show everybody how different you are, how cut above the rest of

you are, because all the people that are tasked with following you feel that and see that and they will go away from whatever it is you're trying to do. So he cannot motivate anybody around him because it's so very clear that everything he cares about involves Joel and Bede. It's hard to get along with and in those locker rooms where everybody is high paid and everybody wants to be the star a real leader does not separate himself from the group. He goes out of his way to say hey all I care about is our collective success and because of that he will never get along

with another star he will never be in a position where he's in a locker room and people will fall in line and say this is a guy that we believe in and we will follow to the ends of the earth and it will show up every single time playoff basketball comes around that he is not of the crimp to the crimp as far as NBA stars are concerned Pablo your thoughts do I have a ruling here I don't love that on first take they're sharing a microphone I think we need to do better than that in the next version of this we will make sure they're also sitting on a sofa to produce this a slightly better than I'm producing it right now he's also forcing me to like

face him because he's on the profile of it's an app like I have to turn that way and I think he's beenosporin onto the mic. This is the thing. Amin has been trying to hide his face for two days. Have you not noticed he's done the show with his back to the shipping container because he's looking at me? He's never been so attentive on me in his life and it's just because he doesn't want people to see the scar on his face.

Pablo, how's this going so far? We need a third topic. I am going to argue that Amin Alhassan is currently the best version of himself as a debater I've ever heard. Amin you can hear him you can hear the Queens you can hear the Stephen A in his voice as his cognitive impairment also is clearly upon him I also would argue that Amin should probably try you know Hawk knows this Torridal is a thing football players get before a big that Amin should probably try, you know, Hawk knows this, Toradol is a thing football players get before a big game. Amin should actually hurt himself before debating.

This is currently working for him. Amin is my Toradol, is that what you're saying? It's the opposite of Toradol. You have whatever that is. Were your feelings hurt by me underestimating you in this matchup? Everybody, all of these guys. The only person I will allow grace to is Roy

because Roy said it means playing hurt but all the other guys say oh no oh this Andrew Hawkins this what you guys don't understand I do this for a living there it is see that's what I'm talking about your cosplaying as Stephen He's cheating. Had I known he was just gonna be saying that. That's the game! That's the game, huh? Listen, it's one of those things, skill! It's... It's... He's not a leader! You gotta understand he's not a leader! Now we have a fight. Now we gotta fight. I didn't know we were a class class.

Is that what you wanted? Yes! I want... You wanna try again? You want a third chance on... Do you want a third chance on a topic neither one of you know about so that we can do this correctly yes you're both in a costume you're both characters now here's the thing that I never thought I know that the scoreboard already says I've won this thing but if you mean to tell me I'm afraid I will put my reputation on the line and I will say this, winner take all for this round. Oh! Oh! Oh!

Oh! Can we do the debt ceiling? Can we do the debt ceiling as the topic? No! You know what? Shut up, nerd. Kick him out of here. What?

Hold on a sec. Just get him out of here. No, the debt ceiling. Get. Minor penalty, two minutes for boring. ["The Last Take"] Guys, the last take we'd like to have from you is the movie Wicked. Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo both gave stellar performances.

Both are nominated for awards coming up. But between the two, as Galinda and Elphaba, which gave the better performance? This is tough, man. Which which. Which which? Okay. Did it on purpose. Here we go.

Here's the thing, Dan LeBattard, I love Wicked. I took my kids on Chris, well not Chris, on Thanksgiving Day to watch Wicked and they were excited. You know, we pregame, we prep by watching Wizard of Oz to get ourselves into the mood, get ourselves into the mind state to watch this wonderful, wonderful pellicula as they say down here in Miami.

And I love Miami, Miami's different. But I digress, both actresses delivered an amazing performance. Both sang, both made us laugh, they made us feel. Now, what I will say is this. I felt like Ariana Grande's character was more of a one note, so it was easier for her to play.

Meanwhile, the Wicked Witch of the West had a lot more complexity, a lot more texture to her. And so she had to go hard, she had to go low, she had to go left, go right. Talk about Latinas. I'm gonna go... Mm. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Okay. Everybody knows when I'm watching Wicked, everybody, you mean to tell me Ariana Grande? The top, the best?

He won that one. That was winner take all! That was winner take all! That was winner take all! That's how you know I'm a fair competitor man. I gotta give it to him man. I watch way too much Shad and Shark. There is nobody that I enjoy more in life than watching Shad and Shark. And that is the honest to God truth. I should have brought my muscle suit.

That was great. Good job guys. I'll bring a suit suit. We have embraced the bait. Good, we will make this better and better and also just clip that last part where cut it out and edit it out where he says that he loves Shannon Sharp. Send that out just to the internet without that context.

Please do it unfairly. I'm down with that. So that he can have beef with Shannon Sharp. Ah, homophobia. I'd like him to. He's great. He's wildly entertaining. Thank you guys. Come on back in here, please.

Pablo Torre finds out, I've told you, it is a very popular podcast. It is an award winning podcast. It has, I'm going to say, the most critical acclaim from snooty elitists in the podcast world than any other podcast presently going in sports I think I can say that yeah we lead the league in that and snooty elitist approval definitely you are on MSNBC and you are now in the in the middle of a liberal elite spaceship in

one of your side projects how is that going for you i've seen you uh... you're now a regular on morning joe correct that's right i'm a miss embassy analyst uh... it is uh... a fun ivory tower where i get to be a jock that's what i am over the order of the popular you're the popular of the of the world for a higher right to be you're the woof. I'm the sports guy who gets to be chill and hanging out with the fellas. That's what I do over there,

unlike here where I'm not respected really. In any way, I'm reduced to a kind of like inset picture in picture thing where I just laugh at people, do bits. You, Tony, you were making faces at Pablo cause that's what's happening. What, what? Pablo's the jock on where? No, if you guys had not noticed, I know Tony why you're making faces at Pablo, because that's what's happening. What? Pablo's the jock on where?

No, if you guys had not noticed, I know, Tony, why you're not watching this. So let's. It's Pablo. So. It's Pablo. So, to find Pablo on MSNBC Now in the morning, doing morning chuckle fest television,

at what I will say is a pretty dangerous time in America, and some people are going to visit the white house when they sure trump when they shouldn't be uh... that's as journalists but well your dot i'll say what i want their so you are in the middle of that show and i'm not gonna put you in awkward more awkward position than that with that show but you are absolutely the cool sports person who comes in and yes, Dan, yes. And everyone loves talking sports with you,

even though some people on that set don't even want to talk sports and have never talked sports. But now because you bring sports to them, you're the cool guy. I'm a palate cleanser. I'm a palate cleanser, a representative of the thing that Americans actually care about in a place where people are genuinely worried and fretting about

politics about whatever is happening in dc right now which again i i think would be in a an awesome debate topic for shannon sharp to tackle when we do have enough to see if you had no he had to go uh... shannon sharp triumphant performance he just left very good uh... i think that uh... my role there is is i love but i i love uh... i think that uh... my role there is is i love but i i love uh... talking about sports to people who don't actually know

anything about sports uh... it's kind of the inverse of the exercise you just did what if you knew something about sports in the audience did it it's fantastic have you seen i mean it's too early for you on the west coast as i've enjoyed uh... i've got my friends are watching Pablo they're talking about Pablo. Pablo's getting to a new audience I would say it's a different audience. It's very different. Yeah we've lived we've lived in these different all of us have lived in the

ESPN bubble but it's different from here they are fascinated by this shiny sports journalist who comes over and they're like, wow, and he's smart when he talks about the toys. Well, we picked the ambassador for sports to go on that show, right? It has to be someone that is palatable for those people. You couldn't, you know. A model minority.

Pablo Torre is a model minority for the new America that we can all believe in. It's one of those things where it's like, if you gave him an actual sports person, it might be too much, too intense for them. So you add a little bit of milk. You give them one from the library. Get me a sports person from the library.

Bring him over here. Let him push his glasses up the bridge of his nose. Well, actually. Don't wear glasses, actually. I'm a guy who doesn't wear glasses anymore. I wear contacts now. The library can be fun. Libraries can be fun. There are contacts now. The library can be fun.

Libraries can be fun. There are books in them. Books can be fun to read. Put it on the poll, Juju, is the library fun at LeBotard Show? Well, real sports guys wanna go to real sporting events. And as you know, listeners, there's only one place that you should check

if you want to attend some of the biggest events going. We got college football, playoff games, NBA, big time NFL games, legacies on the line. And if you want to be there, you download the Game Time app, you create an account, and use the code Dan, that is D-A-N for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. You get panoramic CPUs, all-in pricing with the push of a button so there are no surprises when you check out. Download Game Time today. Pablo Torre, what time is it? I believe it's game time.

It is game time, sports guy. Just game time. You don't have to use four words when you can use two. Oh. Game time. Just you hit it. I believe it's game time. You gotta have some conviction.

I believe. Have my calculations served correct? Pablo Torre Finds. That's right, that's right. What we need more is just overconfident declarations of things as opposed to, you know, an open-minded curiosity. Sure, let's go that way.

Open-minded? Instead of the way that I'm at. Pablo, are you here to shill on behalf of Pablo Torre Finds Out? Is it the episode with you, me, and Mina, or is it something else that you're promoting?'m actually here to say thank you Dan it's been a really long but incredible year for us in New York we are a satellite upon the moon upon the Sun let's upgrade it to the largest celestial body that is

you guys in Miami and what I come here to say is, we have a great episode today with Dan and Mina. Yes, we had a great episode yesterday with Paul Feinbaum and the secret history of his collars and their criminal histories, which are both hilarious and profound. His collar? His collars. Oh, multiple different shirts. Got it.

And they are not normal collars. Do not find a new slant. What I'm here to say is that it's a show that we really couldn't launch without Dan And so when Dan talks about how much it costs I reckon with that because The whole thing is that we make a show with Ambition that is powered by people who otherwise are not getting paid

Like we are paying journalists to go report stories for us. We're trying to go to death row as well as trying to buy a sculpture of myself made out of butter. We're trying to do serious stuff and silly stuff. And I just wanna say thank you legitimately because the premise of this company was we would get to make something from scratch that lived up to some amount of hype.

And I am very proud that on some level we have done that. And it's really hard. And so thank you to Dan and to everybody in Miami for enabling the nonsense that I know you guys like to make fun of, but deep down, I think you might like, just like a library, you know, has some fun stuff in it too.

And it only costs $242 million. Well. This month. Inflation adjusted. This month. You should have seen what I found out when I started looking at some of the numbers. Okay, hold on.

By the way, just as an FYI, what I found out is that Dan should never be in a finance meeting. I shouldn't have. Dan comes out of that thing and he's like, I got takes. I'm like, oh God. No, I come out of that thing and he's like, I got takes. I'm like, oh God, oh God.

No, I come out of those things and I'm like, I got taken by everyone in our company, everybody who wants more. I just looked at some of those numbers. It's a dizzying array of following everybody's curiosities, totally into an abyss. I mean, I said thank you, you know. I just said it.

That makes it okay. It does make it okay, actually. You know what? That is happy holidays. Legitimately happy holidays. I said when you got on here, this is our last show of the year. We're gonna celebrate in the club

with an assortment of sounds from the year, but I am grateful for everyone here who has made this machine work, everyone on the other side. Yes, genuinely. we've got close to fifty employees i don't know where it is and a whole ton of contractors it is a or for problem it is a spaceship yes it will we got a ton of contractors most of whom were got a mic mike we get dead out of the meetings why can you know about the whole thing was he shouldn't be in the meetings and now he's in the meetings at the end of

the year what What are we— Happy holidays. From our fan to yours. With special gratitude for our entire Metal Art crew. I groan and run my fingernails across his neck, and he gasps a strangled moan. You're going to unmanned me Ana. You take me. I sit down onto him, rambling in the fullness of my possession, rambling in his reaction, washing his unraveled beneath me. I feel like a goddess. Ana, touch me please. I lean forward and steady myself with my hands on his chest. Come on, baby, I need this. Give it to me.

And I explode, my body a slave to his, and wrap myself around him, flinging to him like a vine. I seek- Am I paying all these people? ... with me. Then collapses- All of them? ... pressing me into the mattress.

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understand that there are a whole lot of people in sports who will look at these two guys Jordan Brenner and Peter Keating and say, what do these knobs and all their math and all their numbers and all their data, what do these knobs know about sports that they can tell me who our underdog values? We couldn't get Peter Keating to get his technology right last week. He was upside down. He was confused. His sound didn't't work what does he know about anything in sports well i will tell you that these guys and greg kody and stood out every week around here there anti-information their anti any new data these guys for twenty years now

have data to draw from and they believe in certain fundamental truth so uh... thank you again for being on with us we will get to some of the things happening in sports in a moment but uh... jordan if you can explain basically how do you feel about a whole lot of people in sports just saying shut up nerds you don't know anything with all your math i wish i were a better nerd first of all because half the time of relying on peter for the math. I'm not doing the numbers myself.

I'm just numerate. So what I would say is this. First of all, in my case, I've been covering sports for 20 years. I talked to coaches, I played sports, whatever. So if you want to label me that way, weird outside person on Twitter, that's fine. But what I always say to this is people who are like, I don't like analytics. And then I'll say, okay, so how do you tell if a player is good? And they'll be like, well, you get 40 home runs.

I'm like, okay, you just use analytics. You're just not using the best number possible. So like the old motto of Faber College, knowledge is good. I wanna say, I think there's something a little deeper going on that we should pay some respect to, which is that modern analytics have moved baseball away from base stealing, have moved football away from rushing,

have moved basketball away from the inside game. A lot of people grew up where sports meant a lot more violence and physical contact and beat the hell out of the other guy. And over time, more information discovered other ways to defeat your opponents. There are people who just don't like that. People who don't like how thinking about these things

and the kind of bruising competitions they're used to enjoying go together. But it's all just information. It all just makes us smarter. It all just makes it more fun. You don't have to choose. Baseball is a solved game, Peter, but unfortunately in solving the game,

it's less fun to watch that's what i mean that's what's happened right now the evolutions are such that i've i'm watching my second baseman poll a card out of his pocket so he can stand in exactly the right place and then i see a line drive it there like that your your you're making it so scientific that you are taking some of the joyous spontaneity out of it. It is the eternal struggle that sports are facing right now. We know the optimal way to play, but the optimal way to win games may not be the optimal entertainment value. So Dan, you're

exactly right. How many times your brain is trained to see when a ball goes up the middle, you're expecting it to go all the way to the center fielder. And now we've learned how to shade that way. So we take away that hit. And it's the same thing. Look, there's a reason why Adam Silver is suddenly discussing refining the game a little bit because basketball has been largely solved through the incredibly complex equation that three is worth more than two. So, you know, I get it and I don't get it, if that makes any sense. But I also, there's something a little more general

to keep in mind that a way through this is to embrace the crazy, embrace the randomness. People want to ascribe events to reasons and character and moral turpitude. Sometimes shit just happens. I mean, yeah, we've been studying college basketball for 20 years. The closest we've been able to get in explaining

the variance and what happens in order is it's not anywhere close to 100%. So you can embrace the fact that crazy stuff happens, appreciate it, it doesn't have to be sustainable, and it still should be really enjoyable when unexpected things happen, even if it's a little more predictable. This interview is presented by Masterclass. Learn from the best to become your best.

Peter, can you tell me what you have seen in sports that the math has changed more than the stupidity of holy you were playing basketball the wrong way the entire time trying to get the most contested two instead of the least contested three well the three point revolution I mean if that's that's kind of the paragon example of of how things have changed sure but you got to remember sports can also legislate against too much change I mean baseball just passed rules against the shift and instituted a you know know, for 150 years, baseball intellectuals were writing that the great, timeless thing about baseball was there's no clock.

Well, they changed it and it kind of made things better. Right? So, you know, if we all, we can all get together and decide if this is too much, you know, we don't have robot umpires yet. If we don't want robot umpires, nobody's gonna force us to have robot umpires. We can all't want robot umpires nobody's gonna forces to have robot umpires we can all get together and decide this is too much change let's keep things a little more fun if we want

to sports have done that too and the nba has done that before look in the late nineties early two thousands the game had gotten really boring i mean we remember those we were with fully remember those heat nicks series but it wasn't good basketball was just good drama but the nba he said too many many games that were 82 to 77, and they legislated a lot of the holding off the ball out of the game. And when Steve Nash was with Phoenix and the early days of pace and space and the early days of the Warriors, it was a great blend. The game was way more exciting. It's probably tipped too far in the other direction. And then there are things you can do, whether it's move the three-point line backer put some of the

physicality back in the game to change the dynamic of what points are worth and by the way the one thing that's still worth a ton of value always has been is getting to the rem and get into the free throw line guys this is a little bit dry the numbers are dry can we just do anything to make it a little more interesting in video please are mike what do you have you seem to be all excited here well Well, I'm actually really loving this segment. And it sparked a side conversation, continued from our conversation yesterday that Amin and I had, where, okay, well, we all agree, everyone knows something's wrong with basketball. The numbers indicate this, and true leadership pushes the

sport along. So what can we find consensus on? Because yes, three is bigger than two, we get that. Do we make the court bigger, do we move the line back? And Amin had a very practical solution that I think you also kind of invoked a little bit here. Are you talking about the baseball theory? So guys, so every baseball park, where's the home run line? Well, it's different in every park, right? So I came up with a suggestion,

the three point line should be home court dependent as well. So in Milwaukee, they might have it in the paint. Because their best player, their highest volume player, as Yannis, he's gonna get hit a bunch of threes from right in front of the rim. Meanwhile, in Golden State, they're like, hey, we got the best shooters, let's move it as far back as possible.

Let's move it back to 30 feet or whatever. And so now you've got some variance, some strategically going, right? Hey guys, we're playing at Milwaukee tonight. Pound the paint. I don't want to see anybody standing outside. I want everyone inside the paint. It also demands a lot from front offices too in how you build out your roster.

You essentially have a division specialist because they have more mid-range three-pointers in this. I thought that was a very novel concept. What do you guys make of that? I would love to see the unintended consequences. When's the last time a baseball team actually succeeded when they tried to recruit a free agent because they said, oh, look, I'm going to ignore this video trickery.

I just want everybody to know my hat's still pointing up. Often that doesn't work out, which just adds to the fun. Listen, I think if it's within certain bounds, there are rules about how far the fences can be in baseball. You can't just do whatever you want. There's certain minimums and maximums. That could be really interesting. You know where it would be a fun place to test this out?

Is the completely boring and largely useless in-season tournament. So make that. Yeah. Change up the rules for that one. Whoa, I mean, I mean, he's blasphemed against you. NBA Cup, by the way. I mean, I mean, he's...

Yeah, no, look man, the NBA Cup is not for any of us. It's for children. It's for people who are 10 years old, who are watching this and seeing guys celebrate and be happy and then 10 years from now when they're in the league, that becomes a point of emphasis. I want to win MVP, I want to win finals MVP, I want to win NBA Cup MVP. You're finding yourself give the take that LeBron James and Giannis have now won and cared about this tournament and therefore this will be a requirement for future greatness. That's ridiculous. It's not because the example those guys set, those are guys that a bunch of kids grow up

wearing their sneakers, buying their jerseys, idolizing them, those kids one day will be in the NBA. And they'll say, I wanna do everything that my idol did. Look, Dan, how do we get to a place where you got kids saying Paul George is the greatest player of all time? Because 10, 11 years ago, these were the kids who were like, I don't like LeBron, who's in his way?

That guy, he's really good. And that's how you get kids grow up saying Paul George is the greatest player of all time. And those kids are in the NBA now. So if you're telling me that a kid can grow up thinking Paul George is the GOAT, they're not gonna grow up thinking that the NBA Cup is something worth winning?

Guys, before you get out of here, again, Jordan Brenner and Peter Keating, the underdogs is the name of the podcast. We are out of time, but your underdogs of the year, that episode that you're doing, what are the highlights so people can go get it over there? Because we've run out of time here and I didn't leave enough to actually get into that as subject matter. Well, we'll just have to come back then, Dan. But that show drops next week. It's a two-part

episode. We got a lot of Olympics sprinkled in and a couple big college football upsets, but I think there could be some debate in how high we have some of those Olympic events unless you really like bicycling. And no Florida Panthers, because we decided, because we do a lot of analytics work, we decided Connor McDavid wasn't overrated. Ah, there, okay.

We'll get you on to argue with Greg Cody then, and I think he would have the winning argument is upon us, Christmas is coming next week. So what are you doing for it? I imagine you're going to have some family over. How do you entertain the family? How do you keep everybody happy? Well, I know one easy way. Make your holiday time Miller time. Bring out a nice silver platter of that beautiful white can or bottle, whatever your preference. Heck, do it on draft. As long

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