The Dating Detectives - Dr. Dogfish

Episode Date: September 11, 2023

Mackenzie and Hanna talk to a dogfish victim whose therapist husband used his knowledge of psychology to convince her she couldn’t trust her femmetuition. You will not believe the twists and turns that this story takes!  ALSO VERY EXCITING ANNOUNCEMENT!!! We are officially live on Patreon! Join now at the link below to get 2 bonus episodes a month, access to live virtual events, and a community group chat for our most dedicated fans! The first 100 to join will also get 20% off our very first merch drop which will be going live next Monday!  The first Patreon episode is live now, and our first virtual event will be tonight at 9pm EST///6pm PST. Mackenzie and Hanna will be answering your questions live on Zoom!  https://www.patreon.com/TheDatingDetectives?utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator Instagram & Tik Tok - @DatingDetectivesPodcast Facebook - The Dating Detectives Podcast Mackenzie's Socials - @Freedom_Barbie Hanna's Socials - @HannaAndergram ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for supportSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7-233 for support. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Trusting yourself and the whole adulting thing can be super hard, even if you're someone who feels established in your life. That's why I personally recommend Better Help. Several years ago, I was experiencing a little bit of a loss of identity.

I didn't know if what I was doing in my job was right. I didn't know if I was being a good mom. And I just doubted myself and questioned every decision that I made. I found BetterHelp online when I was on the Google machine trying to find help or someone that I could talk to. And what I loved was that better help was online. So I was able to communicate with a therapist. I took a quiz and they were able to connect me with someone who matched me really well. The therapist that they connected me with was so amazing. And she really gave me the tools and resources that I needed to help clear up my identity again and find out who I was and what I needed

because my schedule was so crazy. It was nice that everything was just different. available online and it was so simple for me. It was a really awesome experience. Let therapy be your map with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash TDD today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash T-DD for The Dating Detectives. Hello, Hannah. Hello.

I sound real raspy. I'm sorry, everyone. You've been going, listen, you guys, Hannah has been on vacation and she's been going a little bit too hard. It was my high school reunion. I got excited. I mean, some people would not get excited about that, but I'm really glad that you've had fun. It was surprisingly fun, but that's not the most exciting thing about today. We have a big exciting announcement today. You guys, we have launched a Patreon today. Can we get a little golf clap or a little yippie? So we're really excited for the Patreon because I, like, you guys are, first of all you guys are obsessed with

these stories and you're always asking for more. I know. So we're going to give you that. So, Mackenzie, what is a Patreon? So a Patreon is basically a paid subscription that you have that gives you a little bit more access to dating detectives. You get two extra episodes a month of the dating detectives. The first bonus episode actually dropped today.

So you can access that right now if you sign up. And we are going to have a little sneak peek of that bonus episode at the end of this episode. So stick around for that. And you'll have access to us when we do like our live events, like the live Q&As and stuff like that. Virtual. Like on Zoom, we'll get to talk directly to you. Our first one of those is actually going to be tonight for all of you who join Patreon today. We're going to be doing a live Q&A so you can actually talk to us, ask us questions, get advice on your own dogfish situation, just whatever you want.

And it's going to be really cool and fun just to connect with all of you. We're really excited. That's something that's really important to both of us is those connections because, I mean, let's be real without you guys. We wouldn't be here. So it's so important to us. I'm also super excited about the community board because right now, like we've got a lot of people who follow on Facebook on Instagram. Not as many on TikTok. You guys should go follow our TikTok. But we want a place where all of the like really dedicated listeners can communicate with each other. So we're going to have a community board. So you guys can all chat about the episodes, chat about anything. Give us your feedback, recommendations. Yes. We'll be in there, so we'll respond to everything. And that's the thing, because you guys have been with us from the beginning and we want a space for the people who have really supported us

and really care about dating detectives, like, we want you to be part of this growth and communicate with us about what's working, what's not. Also, we know you guys have been asking about merch. And guess what? The merch will actually be dropping next Monday. I cannot wait. So the Patreon officially begins today. And the first 100 people to sign up for our Patreon get 20% off the new merch, the new dating

detectives merch. Sign up for Patreon today. And like I said, the first 100 of you will get that 20% off discount. Okay, that was a lot of info. So Hannah, will you give us a little recap? So Patreon launches today. It's going to be $5 a month to be a member. You get two extra episodes a month.

You get live virtual Q&A's with us. you have early access to all our merch and if you're one of the first 100 people to sign up, you get 20% off our first merch drop. And then also you just get to be part of the community, chatting with the community with us, suggesting things, all of that. And the link will be in the bio of this episode, in the bio of all our social media, we'll post it all willy-nilly and you should join the Patreon. We want to see you there. Yes. We have our first live event for Patreon members tonight at 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern. So make sure to join today so you can chat with us tonight at that live event. And you guys, I don't want to hear none of you fussing about the stupid

$5 because you spend more than that on coffee and you know it. So stop it. Stop it. Yeah, we just want to hang out with you more and we want to make more episodes and have pretty microphones so that you can hear us. Yeah, coffee's disgusting anyways. I'm going to get so much hate for that. Now you just lost us like three people who are like, you know what? I'd rather go I don't like coffee. Yeah, right. They're like if she doesn't like coffee. So are you ready to get into today's episode?

Let's do it. This is a, we had the best guest. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So we got to talk to Kelly and she is, she has an incredible story. There's so many twist and turns. You just hold on to your freaking pants. I know.

I thought I was over many times. And then there was more. Same. I was like, is it? Oh, that's it. And then she's like, Nope, there's more. So you guys just hold on to your freaking seats because we're going for a ride.

Should we get into it? Let's do it. Are we ready to get into it? I'm so ready. We have our beautiful guest here. Well, thank you. We're excited. Kelly, take it away for us.

I'm so excited to be on the podcast and to finally be able to tell my story. Do you want me to just jump right in? Just jump in. Jump into the water. Please do. The floor is yours. I think important to this story. is that I grew up Mormon. I was very Mormon. And I dated my husband, well, my ex-husband now for two and a half

weeks before we got engaged. So it's a very, very short engagement, which is not unheard of. It's not a, well, you know, you can't have sex until you get married. So the engagements are short. You're like, let's stop. Speed this up. So we dated for just a short little bit, got married, had this fairy tale marriage. He was a psychologist. Everyone told me how lucky I was to be married to a psychologist because they understand your feelings and are good listeners. You get free therapy. And he was moving up the ranks in the church really quickly too. And so everyone just constantly being told how lucky I was to be with this man and how wonderful he is and how much everybody loves him and that I just, I hit the jackpot.

Totally. And that worked for about seven years that I know of. And then things went south. He was working a lot. And I had three kids by this time. So seven years in, I had already had three children. And I was a stay-home mom, very busy with that. And he was a psychologist seeing just tons of clients.

And then he took up the hobby of ultra running, which is where you run like a bajillion miles in the woods. I don't know if you've heard of these races. Just for funzies? Yeah. No thing. They go, like the races are like a hundred miles long. So they're like they take up a ton of time, right?

I'm sorry. But you have to train a lot. And so he would say, I'm leaving at like 4 a.m. to go train for this race. And then I have to see clients. And then he wouldn't come home until like 11 o'clock at night because he had to see all of his clients and then do all of his paperwork and then come out. So he was gone from like 4 a.m. to 11 p.m. Most days of the week. Wow.

Which left me at home with the kids. And we only had one vehicle at the time. So I just was home, home, home most of the time. You were stuck at home. And it was one day I got the mail and there was a credit card bill in the mail of a credit card that I didn't know we had. And so I opened it thinking, oh, this must be a mistake. And there are just tons of charges on this credit card. Flights and hotels and. and just all kinds of stuff. And I thought we had had our identity stolen. Like my, it was in his name. Naturally. Yeah, in his name. And my initial reaction was, somebody stole his identity.

Someone took a credit card out on him. And now we're going to have to pay this bill because it just never entered my mind that something else would be happening. Good for you for opening it. Right? I feel like I would have been like, this is spam. Well, and I wonder if I did that for months.

I mean, these charges. went like they were like nine months in the making. So it probably did come to our house and I probably did throw it away several times. And you know, that femme tuition, you just feel like you need to open it. And I opened it and saw all this. And so I called him freaking out that someone had stolen his identity and charged a bunch of stuff. And he started to confess that it was his credit card and that we needed to talk. And I immediately said, are you having an affair? And he said, said, I don't know. I'm sorry.

What? You don't know. He was unclear whether or not he was having an affair. And I was like, what does that mean? And he said, let me come home and we can talk about it. So I'm freaking out. He comes home and he starts telling me about this gal from high school that had hit him up because she was having problems with her marriage and she really wanted someone to talk to

and he's a psychologist. That's so common. But that's also, I think, I mean, I'm sure it's different for everyone, but I consider that cheating alone. Like talking to somebody else about your relationship problems is such a red flag. As soon as it's questionable. Well, as soon as it wasn't brought up to me. Like, it's not like he came home to me that night and was like, hey, a high school friend reached out and she needs help. And now I'm seeing her pro bono or whatever, you know, but it was definitely a secret.

So I was like, well, what's the deal with these flights? So he would leave first thing in the morning, grab a flight. This gal lived in a different state. So he would fly to the other state, see her all day, and then fly home and come home. What? No, shut the front door. Really? Yes, without me knowing any of it.

I had no clue. Oh. And. Oh, my God. For like nine months. How often was he visiting her like once a week? Was it like? Yeah, it was probably once a week.

There was a couple of the weeks that it was twice a week, but they would drive. So there was one state in between our state and her state. And they would drive and meet up in the middle state for like a couple hours at a hotel and then drive back. So there's some weeks that it was twice a week, but mostly it was once a week for a very long time. And it was a lot of charges. He was making house calls. Yes. He's a very good psychologist.

He'll come straight to your house. Oh, just so dedicated. to his words. So dedicated. That's a straight up dogfish, like one married life, one long-distance relationship life. Like, oh my God. And if it ended there, I'm not even sure I'd be on the podcast. Like, that's happened to a bazillion women, right? Sure. But it gets so bizarre from that moment on. Oh, geez. Everything just turns so weird. So he tells me that it's not a physical affair, that they only talk. Okay. I know. I know your reaction. That's the reaction I should have had. but I was so naive.

And I thought, okay, he's telling me that they didn't touch each other. Like, she just needed someone to talk to and she needed to talk in person. I don't know. And so we went to our church leaders. And our church leader told me that they believe him and that I should believe him. And then they also told me that because there wasn't anything physical, that no laws of God were broken and there's no punishment. Yeah. So it was, it really messed with my brain a lot to be told there's nothing wrong with what he did.

Like they were like, he shouldn't do it and he shouldn't talk to her in case it turns physical. But there was no like repercussion. And then they also told me that and this was all the same day that I found out. They told me that it was important that I forgive him and strengthen the marriage, which means have sex. So that night we had sex. Like literally the night I found out about the maybe a fair. not a fair, we had sex. And I got pregnant with my fourth child at night. So there was a lot of pressure to believe him and to stay with him and make it work because I was a stay at home mom.

I'm pregnant now with my fourth child. Did you want to have sex with him that night or did you feel like it was a duty? It's kind of hard to know which one it was. I mean, I'm. Yeah. You were so indoctrinated into that. Indctrinated into it. I'm a very sexual being anyways. So I probably did want to more in a say make him want me way versus a like I actually want to do this kind of way. Well, that's I think a good point because we talk about this a lot. The idea of somebody straying from the marriage being your fault being something you can change by making them want you more. I had even asked him like what did I do to make you need someone else? And he was telling me you're not a very good listener and you're not very nice.

I mean, he was, he was letting me know all the reasons why it was my fault. So I ate it up. Yes. And I thought, okay, need to be a better listener. I need to, I definitely need to make sure anytime he wants sex, we're having sex. Like, that was definitely part of the pressure to make him happy. It was always about making him happy. So I find a cell phone bill like three or four months later and her number is all over it.

And so I went to him and was like, what's going on? And then he tells me that even though she was. a nurse, he tells me that she has friends who are high up in tech and that she probably broke into the cell phone company to put her number there to try to break up our marriage because she was so upset when he broke it off. And I believed him. I was like, why would she do that? Well, that's so outlandish. And he goes, she's done this before to guys. She'll break into computers. She'll, like, he's like, we've got to be on our toes because she's, can make things look like they've happened.

Oh, my God. I have a question. Yes. Did you ever consider contacting her? I called her after, like literally right after this. So I get the, I have the conversation with them and I called her because the number was right there. And I'm like, I did the horrible thing where you're like, you're the problem in my marriage, you know,

and told her to stay away from my husband. And I did ask her, did you have. have a physical relationship with my husband. And she said, my physical relationship with Seth is none of your business. Wow. I was like, no, just tell me. Can you just tell me if you had a physical relationship with him? And she hung up the phone. So I was still with that question of like, wait, did they have sex? She's making it sound like they had sex. In that case, then he did have an affair. And it is this horrible thing. And so that really messed with my brain. And, and then I, and then I, It kind of led me down the path of like, there's got to be more.

Something's not adding up here. And so I started looking for emails of his that I was unaware of because he kind of always puts his name at the email. And he has the same password for everything. And I already know it. And so I found a Yahoo email that was. What a dumb. He's a dumb.

He's really not. Found the Yahoo email. And this is where it gets a little weirder. On the Yahoo email are all these emails back and forth. to hookup sites. And it's his office and he's explaining how to get to his office and how quiet it is. And he's explaining that people are in and out of his office all the time. So it would be super discreet.

It wouldn't even, no one would even know. What? Wait. So, oh my God, people would come into his office. Like, like, they'd make an appointment. Like, as if they're going to see their therapist and they would hook up in the office and then, well. Oh, my goodness gracious. I confront him about this.

And he tells me that it's the girl and her techie friends making it look like he did this to break up our marriage. And I believed him again. And so in my mind, I'm thinking she's just the most evil thing on the planet. She's doing everything she can. And creative. It's so creative. So what's the next thing she's going to do? Like there was always the explanation of her being this tech genius to just wipe away

everything that you did. This episode of the dating detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. So we all know that trusting your femme tuition can be hard. We are working on it every single episode and every single day. But it takes practice. And I've definitely found that an amazing way to practice is in therapy. And there's such an easy way to do that with BetterHelp. If you haven't heard of BetterHelp, it's so great.

It's all online. I've used it. And I have a funny story about when I started using it. So I made my like intro meeting and set it for a Saturday around midday. And it just so happened that I had just started dating someone. And I spent the night, all right? And I was like, oh my God, I have therapy in the morning. So I was like, yo, I need to do this call.

Can I have the room please? So I basically kicked him out of his apartment so that I could do therapy. So then it was so easy and I got to introduce myself to this therapist. But what was so nice is that it was so flexible. I really, really got a lot out of the time that I was going to better help because it was a big transition time. I knew I needed help just to feel my best. And I got that at my own pace and at my own convenience. And I've never had an easier therapy experience.

It's entirely online. It's convenient. It's flexible and it's suited to your schedule. If you're thinking about therapy, I think it's such a great way to start no matter where you are, even if it's in someone else's bed. Let therapy be your map with BetterHelp. If you're interested, visit BetterHelp.com slash TDD today to get 10% off your first month. So that's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P-com slash T-D-D, as in the dating detectives. And so it finally got to the point where I said, we need to move. Like we need to move. We need to change our numbers.

We need to get away from this girl because she's going to ruin our lives kind of thing. She's like, yeah, it's almost stalker behavior. Right. And so we moved to a different state, changed our numbers, started a whole new line. You moved because of her? Yes.

Because it was so, like, I woke up every day wondering what new things she's going to break into. And then what if she starts doing it to me? What if people show up in my house? Because she's sending people to my house. I mean, he really got in my head as far as the capacity of this person to destroy our lives. And that's like, you can't live like that, especially with little kids. And I had an, you know, almost brand new baby on the way. Like, it was just, it was really, it was.

scary. And so, yeah, it was worth moving to a new state. It was worth changing our whole lives. And he agreed to it, which is like, he's committed to the bit. I'll tell you that. Like, he's committed. Yeah, he must have been like, I mean, because that means changing his job. Right. Like moving his practice. Yeah. Did he get a new job out of like a new practice? Like he just all willy-nilly up and. Yes. So the new state, he gets, he gets a new job. He loses it like two months later. He gets a new job and lose it. And he kept losing his job. for misconduct. And we were in a very conservative state, and he would blame it on the conservative women and how they don't know how to do business with men and how they take everything as flirting

when it's not flirting. And so it was like sexual misconduct. It had to have been. I mean, it was always just labeled misconduct. And I'm so embarrassed to say that I did this, but I jumped on the bandwagon with him and were like, yeah, these women, they're so stupid. They don't. don't know how to have. They're too sensitive. They think everyone's flirting with them and they just aren't used to being in professional settings because we're in this backward state. You don't want to believe it. And also it's like he's also we're not, I mean, you've mentioned it and you know this, but like I'm remembering that he is a psychologist. Right. He knows how to manipulate other people's psychology. That's kind of his, not manipulate. It's his training though. Yes. What you think about a therapist,

this job is to change how you think and help you think differently. Yes. Yes. And so then another life change comes and we both decide to leave the Mormon religion, which is a whole other like huge life transition. And the community we were in were very Mormon and we felt like we needed to move again more for the sake of our children because they're like soft shunning kind of stuff. So we move states again. I'm sorry. And we leave the religion. And we leave the religion. And there's lots of transition in that. And I ask him, let's revamp our marriage again. Let's like set our foundation again and really try to be together.

How long had it been up to this point? How long had it been since you initially found that credit card? At that point, three or four years, maybe more, five years. Yeah. So we moved states. We restart our lives again. He gets a really good job, a well-paying, high-paying job. And we never have any money.

And I cannot figure it out for the life of me. Like, ever. Like, we are constantly just barely making it through the month. And I was always in charge of our finances. And he at this point had decided that he wanted to do all the taxes. He said that it was complicated and he knows how stressful it is with me with the four kids. And he just wanted to take stuff off my place. I mean, he just made it sound like he was being just a saint, a saint, a good.

person helping me out kind of thing. And so I didn't see the taxes for several years, but I knew that we were always under a crunch. And it could not figure it out. And I, so I started looking at our bank statements and there was a ton of Western Union transfers on our bank statements. And again, even with his history, my first thought is someone has broken into our bank account. Because why would we be sending Western unions? And I sound so, this is what's so hard. I. This is what's so hard. I sound, it makes me sound so naive. I'm like, I'm not like an uneducated person, but when it's someone you love, you just, the blinders are so thick. I mean, we all are like that, there are those people in your life that you're just like, they would never. Yeah. Yes. And so I confront him about

the Western Union. He says the company he's working for, they hired a team out of South America and he's in charge of paying them, which is not, would not be unheard of. We actually both had lived in South America at one point. We have lots of contacts there. Like, that's not so far. I mean, I thought it was weird that the company wanted him to pay for it. Yeah. Right. And he said, they pay me back in my paychecks. And so after several months of this, I said, it doesn't feel like they're paying us back in your paychecks. And he's like, oh, let me look into it. I'll see. And then he'd come back and say, oh, you're right. They missed last month. I'll make sure they get it. on the next month.

Like, there was just always like a push it down the line a little bit. And like, for kids, I was super busy. It's not like I had all day long to just sit and try to figure out these financials. Like, I'm running people to sports. We're doing school. Like, all of this stuff. And finally, I just get sick of it. And I'm like, this Western Union stuff is outrageous.

He had gone to South America twice that year for business trips to check on the team. Oh, no. And I finally confront him and like, I want to talk to your boss about this Western Union stuff. I'm done with it. And so then he confesses a story. He says that when he was in South America, he got in a car wreck in the rental car. And that the rental car company said we're either going to send you to jail or you're going to pay off this car.

And so that's where the Western unions have been going to pay off this vehicle. And he didn't want to tell you because he got. And he didn't want to tell me because I would be mad because I'm such a. mean person. Also, I don't listen. I mean, like, just all this stuff about me. Oh, boy. And so I was like, okay, like, one, you should have told me, I can handle that. Also, they just let you go with a promissory note that you would pay it. Like, that doesn't really make sense. Like, it's not like the U.S. is going to extradite you because you didn't pay off your rental car. Like, it just, it's one of those stories that like, I'm trying to listen to it. And it is just,

my femtuition is like screaming at me. This does not make sense. sense. And so I'm trying to understand it. And he's like adamant that that's the story. And so again, I go into one of these modes where I'm like, I wonder what else he's hiding. And I look up that old email, which he still didn't change his password on. He didn't get a new email. He's just like, he didn't get new email. It was the same old email. And there are tons of emails back and forth to a woman in South America. And it's all in Spanish. And I. confront him. Does he speak Spanish? He does speak Spanish. We both speak Spanish. Yeah, because we both lived in South America for a while. I was going to say, that would be really committed.

I was like, did you get somebody to translate? So you could translate it right away. Yeah. You're the love of my life. I can't wait to see you. I can't believe that something's so good is happening to me. I'm just nonstop lovey-dovey. Like stuff I wish he would have said to me, to be honest. Like really romantic, sweet things. How long was he in South America every time he went? Oh, like 10 days? go there for. I mean, it's a long flight. Like, if you're going to go down there, you go down there for a while. Yeah. So like that days each time. And even one of the times, it was right during COVID era. And he was going to get stuck there when everyone was closing down. And my parents, like, used all of their miles to get him out of the country as fast as they could. Like, he was probably like, dang it. He's dang. He probably would have loved to stay down there for a couple months. Yeah. Oh, that's devastating. Oh, my God. So I confront him about these emails. thinking, and you would think at that point he's caught, right? No. He tells me that in the airport

he was crying and a man came up to him and asked him what's wrong and he told him about his wife and how his wife is not supportive and she's really mean to him and he just doesn't feel supported. And the man said, oh, me too. I'm having a really hard time with my marriage too. And they decide together that they're going to email each other, loving emails, pretending to be the loves of each other's to help each other get through this hard time. I repeat the story. I cannot believe I believe these things. But I said, well, then why?

Like practice. They're practicing. Practicing as if they had a great marriage. And I said, well, why does this dude have a girl's name? And he said, because I wasn't comfortable emailing a dude. And the guy said, it's cool. I'll be the girl. And that's what the emails were.

And I, it was one of those like, I knew, I knew not to believe it, but I believed it. And it part, okay, this is part of the believing it. He told me, he said, I know that your intuition is telling you that this isn't right. And he said, but I broke your intuition on the first affair. And as like a mental health, you know, person, I can, I can tell that you're just hyper sensitive and you're not going to be able to know when things. are true and when they aren't for a long time because you still need to heal. He said your intuition was broken? Yeah. You cannot break intuition. I thought you could. Like, I mean, a psychologist tells you you can and you go, oh, okay. I mean, we've that idea of like betrayal trauma forcing you, leading you to question your own intuition. You can question it, but there are you no breaking your intuition. It's there. And then he goes on this like, I can't live like

this where you're constantly questioning me and constantly trying to dig up dirt and constantly trying to. He's such a, by the way, you guys, this is called gaslighting. This whole thing is called gaslighting. Like, this is 100% gaslighting. Go ahead. So then I think, okay, like the problem is me. And I even told him, I said it's really, I don't know how to live in a world where I don't

know whether my gut is telling me the truth or not. Sorry. I might cry. No, it's. Because that's such a sad thing. It's so traumatic. It's such a traumatic thing to think, I can't trust myself. Mm-hmm. And when you have a, even though he's my partner and even though he had messed up a lot, when you have a psychologist telling you, yeah, you can't trust yourself. Like, you really believe it. You really believe I, I don't have an intuition. It's broken. I can't trust myself. I can't. Like, all of my feelings, like, I'm wrong. I'm wrong. And like. So you have to count on him. to tell me the truth or not.

And I would like look in his eye. And he would grab my face and he would look in my eyes and he would be like, I promise you. That's what is happening. And he would just. And so I just believed him because sometimes it's the only, like psychologically is the only thing you can do. Because otherwise you can't even function. You can't do your day. You can't take care of your kids because your brain is so messed up trying to make these stories fit.

And so I just believed him. I just chose to believe him knowing, like even in the back of my mind knowing that I probably shouldn't. So I think it's this dude from the airport. I tell him I'm not comfortable with him emailing this dude from the airport. He needs to stop. And if he has feelings that he wants to share, he should share them with me. He agrees to it. So he's always been really weird about his phone as well.

And he would never have it up. He would never let me look at his phone. He would never anything. Of course not. And he would always say it's HIPAA because he's a psychologist. I can't look at his phone because his clients are on there and it would be like, like unethical kind of thing, which is sticky because that could be true for people, you know? It could be true that for HIPAA, you can't look at someone's phone.

I don't know. But so one night, I mean, things were just getting bad. And I, he always kept his phone, by the way, under, beneath the mattress and above the box spring. So at night he would tuck his phone beneath the mattress and the box ring and then he would lay on top of it. So like the princess and the pee, so he would know if you got in there. The princess and the iPhone. He would know it was there or something. Yes. Yes. But one night I just thought I can't, I need to see what's on this phone. Like something's up. And so I got like two bottles of wine. I got him very drunk. I not maybe proud of that. But I knew it needed to be a

that he wouldn't feel it. Good for you. And so we went to bed. I hadn't had hardly anything. So he had drank almost the whole two bottles. He was out. And so I waited to like two in the morning, snuck around the bed, was like on all fours, stuck my hands up in between the mattress and box spring and pulled out his phone.

And I did know the password to his phone. So I opened up the phone. I'm looking through the text. There's nothing. He's so dumb. There's nothing in the text. He has the same password for everything. He has the same password for everything, yeah.

And then so I'm just kind of scrolling. I'm thinking, okay, like nothing's up. And I get to the WhatsApp app. And I open it up and there is this woman. It is not a man from the airport. And there are pictures and there are videos and there are texts and there is, I mean, it is undeniable evidence of the affair that they are having and that it is not an emotional affair. It is very much a physical affair.

And even that night, we had held hands. We had had sex. And he went into the bathroom after that and messaged her that he wants to be with her forever. And can't wait to see her. And can't wait until she comes because they were planning on her coming. Like he was helping her get her passport ready and all those stuff. Yes. What?

So I, is he? Is he what? Insane? Yes. Insane? Yes. He's, I, I, I, My psychological answer is yes. Yes, our diagnosis. I'm diagnosing him. So I wake him up with a glass of water to the face because I know that he is drunk. And he wakes up and I say I've seen it all. I've seen the text. And I confronted him about his story about getting in the car wreck in South America. And he did confess that he didn't get in a car wreck that this was all money that he was sending to her. And I asked him how much it was. And he said he was.

really unclear. He doesn't know how much he sent her. But I did go back and edit up. And it was somewhere in the ballpark of $40,000. So it's not. That's like an annual salary for some people. It probably was her annual salary, to be honest. And did make me feel better about the fact that we never had any money. I'm like, why do we never have any money? Oh, because we're supporting, we've adopted a South American. You are doing charity. Oh, my God. She's the only adopted a South American woman. He's like, it's for the church.

And I say, you're leaving right now. And, yeah. And so he's like freaking out. And he's like, can we talk? And I was like, no, we cannot. Pax his suitcase and leaves for the night. Good for you. Because that's his weapon is talking.

He knows how to talk himself out of anything. Well, don't say good for me yet because he comes back the next day. No, good for you because it's still hard. It's so hard. It's so hard. Well, and it's, there is something to be said about being a stay-at-home mom with no income. It's scary. It's scary to think of what you're going to do and not.

You're relying on this person that you know is lying to your face. Yes. So after I found out about the affair with the South America lady, so he comes back the next day and is like, you can have anything. you want. I'll give you everything in the divorce. I'm so sorry. Like so apologetic, so sweet. I'm dying because I'm like, okay, like, what if I, what if this really was it? Like, what if he's done? What if this was the wake up call he needed? What if now we could have a happy marriage? What if I could save my family? What if I? And then what if they're just like so loud. And so I talked to my own therapist. And she told me that if it's that loud and I need to, you know, know that why don't I give him another shot?

And so I did. And I said, this is your last shot. Like, let's try to make this work. And it was really loving for a couple months. It was. And then the weirdness started weaving its way back in. Like he'd be really, really loving. And then with an undercut.

So like, I found a receipt in his pants for flowers. And he had never bought me flowers. And I said, who'd you buy flowers for? And he said, well, I bought them for you. But then I got so mad at you that I threw them away. And it was like devastating to be like, okay, I'm not like. And so he'd be like, you can be so sweet. But do you remember when you cut in when I was trying to talk to the kids? And he'd be like, it's just, it undermines my parenting. And it makes me really mad at you. And so I'm like, I'm constantly trying to be this perfect person. Like listen perfectly. and love perfectly and never have an argument and don't absolutely don't try to intervene in parenting whatsoever and like just it was knots and not tying myself up in knots and it goes so slow that you don't realize how knotted you are and then you're so nodded that you think maybe I just need one more knot a little bit tight or not a little bit there's just a constant pull of like what can I found another receipt for sunglasses and again he like has this

story of he saw some people on the street and thought he would do a good deed and got them son. I mean, there was just always a story. He said he's going to the gym. My broken intuition was like, I don't think he's going to the gym. And so I drove to the gym. His car is not there. He comes home with this story of, oh, I decided to go on a walk instead. And he's like, this is what I'm talking about. You're going to constantly question me for the rest of our lives. And so I, you've already, yes, I was just thinking like, it's always my fault. It was always, always my fault. And he would like go away for nights at a time and just say he needed a break from the family. And he was going to turn his phone off because he just needed a break. Or business trips were big too.

I'm going on a business trip. I'll be gone for 48 hours on this business trip. And there was no way to check it. Like there was no like, like you can't call his boss and be like, I'm sorry, but we're having marriage problems. Can you tell me if he's on this business trip? Like that's not. You can't do that. So I just always trusted him. And there was never any money. It was the weirdest thing. He was making good money and we never ever had any money to the point where I was like, we might have to sign up for Medicaid. Like I, we don't have any money ever. And he was like, oh, the company's behind on paying me. And like there just always was an excuse on what needed to happen. So I was getting ready for my son's sports tournament. And I get a phone call from a woman. And she says, is this Kelly? And I said, yes, it is. And she goes, I am. so and so. She says her name. And I don't know who this person is. I'm like, okay. And she said, I've been dating Seth for the last 10 months, which means he was only a fair free for like a month

and a half. From the first time to her and from the move and from everything. From the second, the South America one to her was only like a month and a half. Oh my God. And my initial reaction, I said, not again. I just said not again. And she goes, what do you mean, not again? And then she tells me he had told her he was a single dad. Our kids go to the same school. She met my children. He took my children to meet her and then told my children to lie to me about it.

Absolutely not. Done. Oh, my God. 100% we are done. And she was calling to let me know that she's pregnant. And it was like the weirdest. It seems like it would be the worst moment of my life, but it was almost the best moment of my life because all of a sudden,

all of the knots I was tied in, all of them came undone. I knew I was done. I knew that this was, this marriage was completely over. I knew that I never had to do any of this anymore. I knew that my intuition wasn't broken. I knew, like, it was the weirdest side of release. of relief. Everything is clear.

Ever, ever. And I actually felt bad for this other woman because she's going through her first, you know, turmoil with him. And she's bawling. And I'm like, all right. What do we do? Where's my lawyer? How do I do this?

Like, it was such a breath of air. But she told, so she tells me that she's been wanting to meet me for a long time because they're talking marriage. They're talking all this stuff. And he tells her, he told her that I was diagnosed with multiple personalities. disorder and that he didn't want to introduce her to me because I can become very violent with people and he wanted to protect her and all this. He probably was telling her that you had friends in tech who could break into her phone and her computer and all this stuff. And I just laughed. I was

like, I don't have multiple personality disorder. And then she was like, but I've met your children. And that really bothered me. So I talked to my kids about it and they were just bawling because they're older. They're teenagers. They're not like little children. I'm going to cry. Well, I might cry too because they would have, they told me that they would have sibling meetings where they would get together and say, how can we help mom figure this out so we don't have to lie to her anymore? And so they would like be like, they be like, we know that dad talks to her early in the mornings. How do you think we could wake mom up early enough so that she hears it? So they knew.

They fully knew. They fully knew what was happening. They're all in therapy now. They're all working on trusting their dad again. How about that? Because that, like. Not to mention the trust they're going to have with partners in the future. They've even, like, even my son has told me, like, that he's already feeling like there's going to be issues for him because he's so.

afraid that someone will cheat on him. And I'm like, oh, dude, like, not everybody's a cheater. It's going to be okay. And like I said, we're going to real therapist, which also is like a Gatch 22 when you're, when, you know, your partner was a psychologist. You don't trust therapists. You're kind of like, they can, they can be bad people do. But it's, it's okay. And they're, they're all doing okay. And they're all such good kids. And they felt so terrible. And it's been really important to let them know, None of this is their fault. None. And it was absolutely okay that they kept the secret from me because they got told to by a parent. Like, that's not their fault. What made her call you?

Like, why willy-nilly just decided to call you? I think they got in a fight because the night before I was out with my husband and we were talking about our future and how happy we were going to be together. And we were holding hands and walking along the waterfront. And it was a supremely romantic night followed by lots of good lovemaking. and I think that next day they got in a fight. I think he probably either confessed that he was married because she knew now at that point or something. Like I think it was a catalyst of him going maybe I'm not going to leave her, me kind of thing.

Like I don't know. And so I think they got in a fight because while she's talking to me on the phone, Seth is just blowing up my phone, just texting and calling and texting and saying don't talk to her. Please talk to me first. Like all this stuff. So like he knew she was going to call me. So I think he confessed to her and she was like, this is bullshit. I'm calling your wife, which I totally like, I've thanked her many times for calling me because I know that was probably really hard.

She was probably scared. Like how was I going to react? Like I could, you know, yell at her. I could make her the mistress. Well, and she's hurt too now. She's pregnant. She's hurt. Did she ever, do you know if she ever had the baby?

She did not have the baby. And I don't know how that ended. I don't know if it was a conscious choice. or if it was a just like medical thing, but it didn't end up in viability. Wow. But I did find out about the financial stuff within all of this, too. So I had thought once the Western Union charges were gone, like we're going to have all this money back.

Like all of a sudden, it's going to feel like we have so much more money. And it never did. It still felt like we didn't have any money ever. And there were so many charges all over the bank accounts for Amazon and Walmart. and even like gas stations and stuff, and I could not make the numbers add up. Like the amount of packages I have, which is a lot,

still didn't add up to the amount of charges I was having for these different stores. So he owned his own business and he had a credit card processing account with Stripe. And there's a thing in there where you can go in and name an invoice anything you want. So you can name it Amazon. You can name it,

Walmart. You can name it these things. And he was charging our account and sending it to a new bank account. So that's why all the money just kept not being there is we would get paid. And then he would charge all these different. I mean, small enough amounts and enough things that like I'm going to go through and look at all of the Amazon charges. Am I really going to demand every Walmart receipt? You know what I mean? Like he was he was really smart in moving money. And it was all going to this new lady. What was he doing? Was he buying her things or just supporting her in general? A little bit of everything. He had told her he was a millionaire and so he had to keep up that millionaire facade. All of his business trips were not business trips. Like they had gone to California together and they

had gone off to a hot springs for their like six month anniversary together. And they had, so anytime he had a business trip, it was just him paying for luxury trips for him and her. And then like, yeah, flowers and gifts and. And, all kinds of things. So you can cheat your bank account. Like you can, if you have the right credit card processing software, you can make it look. There is a way to tell if it's real. If you click on it, if it's the real company, it should drop down the phone number. It should drop down the address. If it's a fake company, it's just the name. You're not going to be able to drop down anything off of it. So I, you know, I could look back and see which ones were fake and

which ones were real. But I didn't know that at the time all I was going through. So that's good to know. That is right. Not to make anybody paranoid, but click on the, click on the name. See if it drops down actual infre it. There's going to be all sorts of women on their fake accounts. And I just like clicking on everyone. But it's true. You can like sadly you can fake charting. I am like I'm literally speechless. When he said your intuition is broken, you cannot break someone's intuition. You can make them question it. You can make them not believe it.

You can make them choose to ignore it. But you cannot break it. It is not breakable. It is innately within us. You cannot break it. And it is so, I don't even know the word for it. To be able to trust myself again and to be able to look back and say, oh, I was right. I was right.

It was okay for me to fill this way. It was okay for me to question this. It was okay for me to like, I was. was right this whole time. I'm not broken. Like, I walk lighter. I smile bigger. It's a whole new life. I have a whole new life. I'm so proud of you. I'm so happy to hear that. After all the times, just being, allowing yourself to believe him because this is your husband. And when you get married, that's something that you, that's something that you cherish is that's us until the very end, no matter what. Good time is bad times. That's what marriage is about. And so whenever, like,

he said those things and you just wanted to believe him. It was like, that was your first instinct. This is my husband. This is my partner. And he's a psychologist. He knows. Yeah. So how many different relationships were there?

I mean, that I know of? At least three. Three that I know of. Plus all the hookup things. Like, I don't, there were dozens of those. I don't know. There has to be stuff that I didn't know about. Like, there's no way that I figured out all.

of the ones that every single one of them. I'm sure. I will say one other note is timing. Like, I think had I, I definitely know had I left after the first affair. I would wonder for the rest of my life, like, if it would have gotten better. And even after the second affair that I know about, I always have to say that I know about, I think I would have still wondered, like, could I have saved it? And the good news about how horrible the last one was is like it was the finality I needed for me to be able to be like, oh, there's no saving this. Like, this thing was dead a long time ago and you need to let it go. When she called you and she said, I've been in a relationship with your husband for the last

10 months and you said, that's it. I was done. Was there an immediate, like, instant kind of like, oh, I'm hurt. That sucks. And then you went or was it just like, okay, we're done. Like, we're done. This is silly. I didn't even cry.

It was an immediate, like, take your breath away for a second. And then all the day, it was like this like stack of cards. Like everything just fell back into place like where it was supposed to be. Where it was like, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. You don't have to question yourself anymore. I love, love, love how you said that all the knots came untied. They did. They literally all came untied and I could take a deep breath.

And it just was so like, I, relieving. It's so relieving. Yeah, you're free. And that is so validating for once to finally be like, that mother, I was right. And just to be like, this isn't actually my fault. This is a him thing. Nope.

I'm so glad that you got to that point. How long has it been since that incidentally come? It has not been years. This was five months ago. Wow. Really? This was so recent. You are so strong.

I was going to ask, are we dating again? But five months is not that long. Well, we are dating, but not like in a serious, not in a serious way. Good for you. Listen. If you're not Mormon anymore, can you just like have fun without just jumping into me? Yes. I am building a roster for the first time in my life.

Yes. She's putting nodges in her belt. But I'm very honest. I am very honest with everyone. Oh, my gosh. So much excitement. It's been so fun. I'm very honest with everyone.

I'm like, listen, I'm not looking for relationships. I'm just having fun. I just got out of a very long-term thing. And everyone's been more than willing to have fun. If you're comfortable sharing, are you on apps? Are there any apps that you love? Yes. That you're like, not into it.

I did Tinder for like five minutes. That's a terrible app. I don't know what's happening on there. But it was really scary. And there was lots of. gender in your face stuff. It's the dickpicks. The dick pigs are in your face.

We don't mind a good dick pick. But I mean, it's got to be like classy. Like it's got to be, yeah, it's got to be part of the conversation, not like the I can't just be all willy-nilly. Yes. Yeah. I'm on, I'm on hinge. I really like hinge.

Have you used hinge, Hannah? I'm on hinge, yeah. And I like hinge too. It goes hot and cold for me. There are some times where I'm like, ooh, it's going great. And then other times I'm like, is it me? I'm going to blame the algorithm. It might be me, but I'm going to blame the algorithm.

I'm enjoying it. That's so awesome. I love seeing your smile. Do you have an app opener? I don't know what that is. Oh, like a thing to say in conversation. What's your first thing you send? Or do you let them come to you?

I let them come to me. I'm so weird about that. Like, it's so funny. So no Bumble. Bumble is the one where the girl has to message first, right? I did try Bumble and I don't like that because you're just sitting there going, Do I say, how's your day? Can I tell you my opening?

Yes. On Bumble? Yes. You make speak now is one I've used. Or I just be like, you're welcome. That's brilliant. You're welcome. I am here.

You're welcome. Because it's also like, it's like funny. You get it. But then it also gives them the opportunity to like do their opener. Yes. So it's like, you get flirty. And yeah. I love it.

A little silly. I don't, if I had a date right now, like on dating apps, I wouldn't know what to do. Like, I would be like, hello. And they'd be like, hi. And I'd be like, no, you're done. We're done. Like, I can't, I would be like, I don't, I already don't trust you. Like, I cannot trust anybody. Interestingly, you would think I would not trust people, right? You would think I'd be like all scared. Yeah. It's a good thing you brought up the dating apps. Now that I know I can trust myself, I am not scared. Like, if I go into a situation and the dude, for whatever reason, I'm kind of like, I'm not feeling this. I will literally. I will literally. say, I'm not feeling this. I'm going to leave. And I don't have any qualms about it because I'm like, I don't owe you anything. And my femt tuition is completely intact. And if I'm not feeling this or I don't. Are you ladies listening? No, seriously, though. Like it's not a podcast to make us lose faith. This is a podcast to empower us. It almost did the opposite. Like this whole situation almost did the opposite effect where I trust myself so much now that like I can stand up for myself and I can fill a situation out and it has been kind of great. I have gooseies,

you guys. I got I got goosebumps. Thank you so much for telling your story. This is, I just can't believe he's up to some shenanigans. Is he still practicing? No, he's not. He let his license go and he just does business consultation from then on out. So he doesn't, he's not in private practice. He's not meeting with individual people anymore. So none of our listeners have to be worried about accidentally. That he's their psychologist. They're like, wait, are you? Literally, Kelly.

Like, you guys, I love her so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I can't even, like, this is the first time I've ever cried on this podcast. Like, the first time where I actually got like in my, in, like, in my spirit, I felt, oh, Karen again. I just want to tell you how much we appreciate you sharing your story because I know how hard that can be to share. Yeah.

And I think it seems like it's probably harder, especially when like a lot of women tend to blame themselves and feel like, oh, how stupid could I be, whatever. These stories are not easy to tell. So we're just so grateful. And because you tell your story, another woman is going to feel less alone. So we're really grateful to you. Thank you. That's how I feel when I listen to your stories.

So I really hope I can do that for someone else. I'm so excited for your family, your kids. Like, I want updates on. apps if you want to share them. Absolutely. As you go. On my roster, I'll update you. We're sending all the love to you guys.

Yes. Listen, this girl in her roster, I love it. We're really glad that you came on the podcast. Thank you a million times. We really appreciate you. Thank you so much. Wow. So, Wild Ride.

Did I tell you? I told you guys. Mackenzie, you got so emotional. I wanted to give you a hug through the screen. I had never cried before listening to one of these. stories. This was the first time that I actually got emotional and it was, I think the biggest part for me was the kids. Like, you would do that to your own kids just so you can do your own thing and, you know, it broke my heart. Like, how can you know that you're going to hurt those people

so badly and still keep doing it? And can we talk, do you guys remember the episode where we talked about betrayal trauma? For people who have been listening for long time. We talked about betrayal trauma and the confessions of a dogfish episode. So you should go back and listen if you haven't because we had therapists. Oh, the sex addict. Yeah, the sex addict. And this episode was so interesting because he was also a therapist using that against her. Like if she had known about that you can't break your intuition, you know, your femtuation or your betrayal trauma, if she had known about it, maybe she would have used that to trust herself more. But then she felt she couldn't trust herself.

Like she was already doubting herself and he knew that and then used that against her. It just was like kind of an interesting tie-in to what we had talked about before. That broke my heart. And also it made me so glad he's not practicing anymore. Yeah. And first of all, like to use your knowledge and experience as a professional in the way that he did, like you're a professional therapist or whatever, right? and you're using all of this knowledge that you have against your wife.

Like, this is worse than the guy who used the Hallmark movies to like, you know what I mean? Like he was using Hallmark movies to learn how to like emotionally destroy. He was trying to be a little sweet. He was trying to be a little sweet. This guy was using it too. He was using his knowledge as a professional. And he used that against the kids too. And he used it against all these women.

And I love that. She said she trusts her. more now because of how badly, like, she was destroyed and she felt like her. And she's like, nope, I trust myself more now than ever because she knows that she can. It made my heart warm when she said that she hasn't gotten to tell her story very much because she's respectful of her children's father, which is, I absolutely support. But the dating detectives gave her a little anonymous platform to let it all out. And I am happy to do that. Same. If you have a story, hey, what a segue. If you have a story that you need to let out, you can email us at

investigate at datingdetectivepod.com. And you can follow us on the Insta or our socials at Dating Detectives podcast. Y'all just go to the Google machine. It'll take you in the right direction. I promise you. Yeah, just Google it. Yeah. And also sign up for the Patreon. We appreciate you guys so much in all of your support and we're really excited to do a little extra work for you. So thank you guys so much. And I can't wait for the merch. I'm so excited finally. When you sign up for the Patreon, make sure you go comment on like the board so we can like welcome you and be like, oh my God, hi, you're here. I don't know. Yeah, we're going to have like a list of favorites. We're going to be like, oh, this one is my favorite. They were the first on the comment. We should have like a wall of

fame like the first person ever to comment on like you save your first dollar bill in your business, right? Like this would be the first person who commented on our Patreon. That would be so fun. The first person to go down in history. Yes. I love it. I love it. That's cute. We're picking favorites.

Sorry. Sorry about it. And oh, don't forget. So since the Patreon dropped today, so did our first Patreonic episode. Is that a word Patreon? We just say Patreon. It can be now. It's a new.

I just come up with all these words all willy-nilly. So join the Patreon. We have the very first episode for the Patreon is out. And we're going to kind of tease you with a little clipy clip. And if you want to listen to it, you have to go sign up. This is a teaser of the bonus episode, but the rest is on Patreon. Bown chick a wow-wow. Hannah, are you so excited for our very first Patreon episode?

I am so excited. All right. So basically, y'all are amazing. And you send us so many stories. And we get to a lot of them, but there's just too many for us to do full episodes for everything. but that doesn't mean they're not wild dogfish stories or just wild stories in general. So that's what this episode is going to be. We're just going to go through them.

We have some stories to tell you that like just from emails. We just want to read the emails to you guys from from listeners. From you. Story time. Email number one. All right. I'll give you the subject that they sent. Dating, married, men unknowingly.

Uh-oh. Okay, go, go, go. And that's all you get for now. but it was a super fun episode. We read some crazy emails. We give some advice. It's just super fun. So if you want the full episode, sign up for the Patreon right now.

Thank you guys so much for all of your support. We love you, tons and millions. And we can't wait to hear what you thought of this episode. Yeah, tell us what you thought of the episode. And as always, trust your Femtowish. Trust it. Baby. I hope you bye.

Bye.