The Dating Detectives - Summer Lovin' Part 2

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

The harrowing conclusion to Clara's story!  Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page! If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email [e-mail] or contact us through our website using this link This episode is sponsored by Miracle Made. Get your incredible, temperature maintaining, silver infused sheets for 40% off, PLUS a free three piece towel set, by going to trymiracle.com/TDD and using code TDD at checkout. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Factor. Head to factormeals.com/TDD50 and use code TDD50 to get 50% off. That’s code TDD50 at factormeals.com/tdd to get 50% off! This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Prose. Take your FREE in- depth hair consultation and get 50% off your first subscription order by going to prose.com/tdd Love spicy romance stories? Go to galatea.com/tdd to download the app now!  ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-723 for support. Good Monday morning. It's a dating detectives morning. It's a dating detective's part two. I know you've been waiting. Some of you are even banking last week so that you can listen to it all together and I get it. I feel like I don't know how to feel yet. Like I can't wait to the end of this one and we can talk about like everything together of the whole story. But this one's crazy, right? I feel like they're all a little bit crazy. But oh my God.

This is a tough one. We mentioned it last week. But it. If you're just joining us, this is go back and listen to part one. There's definitely sexual assaults and some negligent parents stuff. And underage is, I don't know what. They're young. They're 17. They're like, they're babies. What else?

They're children. In the warnings. I mean, it's really hard. That's a child. Yeah. Literally. Like, this is a child. Should we do a quick recap it before we get into it?

Yeah, go ahead. So Clara met Drew at summer camp. Drew was the new kid in town and it was like mysterious, who is this guy? Like he's reading a book alone on a hammock and she was like, what's your deal? And he took interest in her right away. Yeah, he complimented her a lot and she was somebody who is very insecure. Shocker. We, we, McKenzie and I both are like, yeah, we've been there.

17 years old. Oh, man. And then very studious, very strict parents who are strict, but pretty absent. Her dad is like never there. And her mom, I don't think has like a relationship with her outside of just setting rules. So she didn't feel supported by them. Oh, she also had a traumatic brain injury because of soccer. So she couldn't play soccer anymore.

And that was her whole life. Loses a lot of. That must have been hard in itself. Devastating. Yeah. Loses friends because they're all on like four travel soccer. her team so they don't have time to hang out. She's not able to keep up with schoolwork.

Which she loves. Her whole thing. She's really good at it. Yeah. And then I can't. Yeah, this one guy shows a lot of interest. He doesn't go to her school, somewhat long distance. Unfortunately, during that long distance, commuting, she, yeah, had some very strong

boundaries about not wanting to have sex. And, yeah, last episode, she went into how she was raped because of being. given alcohol and she didn't really know that that's what happened to her until later and we'll talk about it at the end but there's yeah because when you're that age like there's you know so many thoughts and feelings and you're still not completely you know you're not at well are we ever like I mean there's full ass grownups who don't understand what happened to them so at 17 can you imagine right so we left off she continues to be with him because she has no one else you know and she also blames herself.

And his behavior becomes more controlling, more erratic. And he tells her that he is thinking that he might want to murder her. Can you guys, but can you even, like, we wait, just listen to the episode because I can't even imagine what I would do in that situation. It's like, sorry, what? I mean, what did you say? Yeah. I'm sorry.

Please repeat that. We were all jaw on the floor. So we got to find out. out. Yeah. And also on the Patreon, you guys have been sharing your own stories like crazy. I can't believe how many of you are sharing, like the things that have happened to you and especially, you know, at a younger age. Amazing. Yes. We're so grateful for all of you, but on, and especially on the Patreon, everybody's just really, really sharing. And I just, it's that sense of community that we keep talking about. You guys, it's amazing. Thank you so much. And we have shared some of your

sentiments with Clara and she was very touched. So continue to share your support because we'll make sure it gets to the people that need to hear it. Yeah, if you want to, if you want to join the Patreon, it's only $5 a month. You get a couple bonus episodes and then just a bigger sense of community and the Patreon link will be in the show notes. Let's go ahead and just get into it because everybody's probably like, oh my God, shut up. Get on with it. And I peek out my bedroom door and I see that the light in the guest bedroom is still on. And I'm, I get confused a little bit because I'm like, surely, Drew is exhausted to he wants to be asleep. Why is he still up? So I walk down the hall and I go into the guest room and this guest room has like a thin entryway ish. And then it's like

a back, because it's like a closet on one side, a bathroom in the guest room on the other side, and then it opens up into the room. And in the opposite corner of the bedroom from the door, he is sitting in the corner, like facing the wall crying, sitting on the ground. And I was like, this is very odd behavior. So I close the door, I go in and I sit on the ground, like cross-legged in front of him. And I'm like, Drew, what is wrong? Like, are you okay? And he's like, I'm just, I'm so upset.

Like, I don't know what's wrong with me. Like something's so terrible and I'm so sad about it. And I was just like, what, what do you mean? Are you sick? Do you need to go to the hospital? Are you okay? And he turns around and faces me. And he's just sobbing hysterically.

Like there's something so wrong with me. I don't know what's going on. And I'm like hysterically trying to figure out like what's going on. Like do I need to call an ambulance? What's the problem here? Like why are you crying? I've never seen you this upset. And he stops crying and he's silent for like two seconds.

And he looks me in the eye and he says, I just want to kill you so badly. What the fuck? Oh my God. And I froze. because I'm sitting cross-legged in front of him, and my back is to the door, which is like a little thin little hallway,

and the door's closed. So for me to fling it open, I can't do like a weird maneuver to get out there. So I'm like, I'm not going to win in a foot race. I'm not going to be able to scream loud enough for my deaf father to hear me. So what do you say to that?

So he... Oh my God. I'm like thinking in my brain at this point, like of all the ways I can get myself out of this situation. And I'm like, I'm not going to win physically. I'm not going to win by screaming and noise because I don't even have my phone on me. I can't call anybody secretly. You can hear me.

Yeah. Yeah. And he continues because I don't respond at first because I'm so shocked. But like I keep it cool. Yeah. My face isn't like, like I'm not making like a like a shocked face. Like I'm just sitting there like total stone wall. Mostly because I don't know what to say or do, but he goes on.

He says, all I've been able to think about lately is how badly I want to just squeeze your neck and crush you and feel the life come out of you and feel you go cold. Oh my God? And he starts describing in vivid detail how good it would feel to watch me die. He needs so much help. And so. I'm sitting here going, oh, my God, does he kill her? Does he kill her? Right.

I know. Thank God you're here. I'm here. Spoiler alert, I live. What do you do? So I sit there for a second and I just process it and all my options and he then gives me my out. He says, is this normal? Like I'm so worried that I'm not normal.

You're not. So I say, of course that's normal. Well, you got to appease him. What is you going to say? No, you're crazy. And then he's going to kill her. Wait, look at you. So he's like, well, what do you mean?

And I said, everybody just feels like they want to kill somebody sometimes. But the important thing is that you don't do it because then you're affected. Oh, my goodness, I want you around in a crisis. It's not funny, but I am, I am, I am panic laughing. We laugh to cope. I'm trying to imagine this. And I'm 18. Like, I'm a teenager, like, listening to how somebody is vividly describing the way in which they fantasize every day about killing me. And so he's telling me all of these deep, dark fantasies about murdering me he's got, and it's specifically me, nobody else.

And I said, yeah, I totally get where you're coming from. But if you do that, you'll end up in prison and then how would you be able to, like, how could we get married and have kids if you're in prison? if you're in prison. How could you kill other people if you end up in prison? Silly goose. Yeah, you're talking to him like he's a preschooler. You're like, we keep our hands to ourselves, even though we want to. So he continues crying hysterically. He's like, Claire, I just love you so much. You're everything I've ever wanted. Like, I'm so glad we had this conversation because now I know that this is okay not to kill you as long as I don't do it. After he's calmed down, we've taken a moment. he leans in and gives me a hug and i like i can feel the chill down my spine i can that he was gonna keep

squeezing i was gonna keep squeezing i'm two inches from him just moving up and squeezing the life out of me just like he just told me but he just gives me a hug that's a little too tight for me and then he's like thank you so much and then he feels calm i'm like do you think you can get some some sleep now and he's like, yeah, yeah, I think I feel better. Yeah, oh, good. Oh, well, praise the lamb. I'm so glad you feel better, guy. Oh, my God.

So he gets to bed. I stand up. I turn around, which was, to this day, the scariest thing I've ever done. Yeah, you don't want to turn your back on him? I was like, there's a 50-50 shot. I turn around and don't make it out of this room alive right now. Yeah. But I was like, I've got no choice because if he suspects that I'm scared,

it's over. Like he's just going to do it. Oh my God. I can't with this guy. I can't this fella. I walk out the room as calmly as a humanly can, which I'm sure I looked like a robot or something. Yeah, you're like one foot in front of the other.

Exactly. So I leave the room. I close the door behind him and then I as quietly as a humanly can in this creakety house, I sneak into my mother's room. I lock the door. And I close her in from the end, like locked in from the inside. I sneak over to my brother's room. I lock him in from the inside. And then I locked

myself in my room. Now, my dad's asleep on the couch downstairs. He's the sacrificial lamb. What is going through your head as you lock people in? I was like, I just have to protect them because I can't tell them. They won't believe me. What did you go? To bed. Then what do you do? To bed. To bed. I didn't sleep, though. I just sat on my bed in my room and it was just like, I don't know what, like, I just have to get out of this. You didn't tell your mom, like, get this guy out. We're done. We're done.

I didn't want to tell my parents because I really thought they would be mad at me for letting someone like that into their house. Like, not like, oh, you poor thing. I can't believe they did that to you. It would be why would you let your brother into that dangerous situation? Or like, how could you put us in that situation? Like, I didn't know that that was what they would say. But I kind of was like, I don't know that that's not going to be the reaction.

So I don't want to open myself up to that. So I'm not about to start down that road. My best friend who was at college was like my last person outside of like the camp group to talk to. And she was going through a lot at this time personally. Like emotionally she had just left home to go from like community college to like regular college. Like there was a lot in her life and I didn't want to burden her with my stuff. So I didn't tell her either until years later, which I've never kept anything from her. Like we grew up basically from the womb together.

So like that was a big thing too. That kind of. This is so weird for me because like I'm just, I guess it's so different. Like I'm someone who would just like I'll say everything out loud immediately. And other people just keep it in because they feel like they have to. And it just goes to show you how we handle things so differently. And I just feel so sad that your parents, namely, but not just your parents, but like didn't create that space for you to feel supported.

The other thing that I think it's important that like numbness is a very common defense mechanism and response to PTSD or extreme stress. And it's easier to deal with it when you shut down than to face all of it. And you add up the list of everything you're going through. It is hard. I feel the same way where I'm like, oh my God, go tell your mom, call the police, blah, blah, blah. But it makes so much sense. And when you're, yeah, it's not something that's easy to wrap your head around because it's a weird trauma response. So then what happened the next day?

You're just like, hey, here's some pancake. So the next day, we go back to work. And I worked the rest of the summer. And I never told anybody. Never. And did you guys just kept dating? Like, and you're just like, hey, fellow. Like, we're still getting good.

I didn't. I was too scared to set them off. Too scared to set them off. I was scared to be the same damn long with him. I was. But I was more scared to set him. him off when I felt like I could talk him out of it, then, like, because here's the thing, one way or the other, that must have been so hard. We were going to be at camp together. And this camp

is my only place left. I'm not going to lose that under any circumstances. So I'm not quitting. I know he's not quitting. And I'm not telling my bosses because I want to have a job next year. So there's also the blackmail element. There's the blackmail element at this point. Oh, yeah. And on top of all of that, one day out of the week, every week at this camp, we go, we call it the overnight, but it's like super out in the woods camping. So like we're already out in the woods camping. This is like you take a pack, you take your campers, and you go make a campsite. And when we do that, everybody on the staff list gets the location of everybody else in case there's an emergency. So I know that he knows that one night a week, I'm extremely vulnerable. And this

isn't like a small camp. This is like a thousand acre property. So he could kill me and leave my This is like a freaking horror movie. This is a thriller. He can leave my body in the woods somewhere and they could very well never find me. So I'm not about to give him the excuse to do that by breaking up with him or by causing a scene. So I'm just like I'm just going to get through the summer. And then once we're both, I'm in Georgia. He's in Ohio. We're safe distance away. Then I'll break it off. That's it. So that was my plan. So the summer comes and goes. I'm able to keep camp as pure as it can be.

I still haven't recuperated my friend group in any capacity because the whole summer the rumors are going. Like she said this about you. She said this about you. He said, you know, to her and him and all these things. And there's like, again, it's close enough to the truth that, you know, in the meantime, he's telling them things that I allegedly said about them that I never said about them so that they don't want to come communicate with me either.

So it's a great time. So the summer ends. I go to Georgia as planned pretty immediately after the end of the summer because school in the South starts way earlier than schools up north. Yeah. A lot earlier. So it's like beginning of August and I'm gone. And he does not leave immediately for Ohio. But instead, uninvited.

Come with you. No. much worse, uninvited. He stays at my parents' house without me there. Are your parents alive today? Yes, they're both alive. Oh, God. Okay. And your brother was there? And my brother, who's 15, and a total dingoist, so he's not aware of anything going on. And so there's a two-week period that this goes on for, that he's waiting for his stepmom to come from Ohio to pick him up, to take him back, where he doesn't live with his dad who is perfectly capable of housing him, he stays with my parents. And my parents are texting me like, you got to get this kid out of our house. Why the hell is he here when you're not here?

Like, we're not his mommy and daddy. Get him gone. And I'm trying. And you're like, I can't because he's going to come kill me if I tell him something he doesn't want to hear. I was scared that he was going to kill them because I wasn't there to lock their doors at night. So I'm not about to set him off, but I'm also trying to be like, don't you want to stay with your dad before you don't see him for a while? Don't you want to go hang out with Layla and the crew before you go out of town for like ever?

Go steal some shit. Like, oh, don't you need to steal some mittens for Ohio? It's going to be cold there. So I'm trying to just keep the peace between my parents so they don't set them off and inside a murder and between me and him so I don't set him off and inside a murder because I'm the only person in the entire planet outside of him that knows what he's said to me

because I've not told a soul. Nobody. So the two weeks comes and goes. He's texting me the whole time like, I miss you. I wish we could spend time together. Meanwhile, I'm like, thank God. I just spent an entire freaking summer with you.

I don't want to see your face. Like, how do you miss me? We lived together for three months. Like, please no. But I, for the first time, I'm not with him and I'm at college and I've moved into my dorm and I'm like I'm making friends for the first time in years it feels like and I immediately make this really great core group of friends and they're all like luckily for me which this comes into play in a in a while but like luckily for me

they're all the athletic type very strong tall dudes and like my roommate and like our core group of friends like outside of them and it's like me my roommate a group of guys a group of gals that the guys know and like all this and we it's like your type of people right i also got my dream major that i wanted i was in the honors college so like i was it was gravy for me my freshman year i'm so proud of you that was not easy given everything you went through it was a lot it was a very tumultuous time and this was like my first like breath from drowning in forever and it was so exciting but so because i'm busy like hanging out with friends going out at night i'm not like communicating with him as much but i am keeping it up enough to keep him from setting off. My friends have heard about Drew at this point.

They're aware of him because, you know, it's like, well, do you have anybody at home? How much are they aware of? Not much. They're aware of, I have a boyfriend from high school. I don't really think it's going to go anywhere because he's moving to Ohio. I'm here in Georgia. You know, it's not that serious kind of thing. Meanwhile, he's texting. He wants to kill me. Yeah. Didn't mention any of that very conveniently. Young love. So he finally gets picked up by his mom, goes to. to Ohio and I kind of wait for a weekish maybe two and because I want to make sure he's settled there. I want to make sure he doesn't like, oh, my stepmom doesn't like me so she sent me back

to live with my dad by your parents' house or anything like that. So he gets settled in. He is clearly there to stay and so I'm like, okay, now's a good time. So I break up with him over, I do him the decency of a phone call. I don't even leave him a text message, which he didn't even deserve that. So I'm proud of myself for that one. But I called him. I was like, hey, I just, you know, you're there. I'm here. I'm really busy. It's probably just isn't the best fit. And I forgot to mention, but I did end up somehow finagling the pictures into being deleted permanently at this point. So I didn't have that either. So that was great. When you were in person with him? Yes, before I Did that before you left?

Right before I left for school. Good for you. So I break up with him. He, of course, takes it very terribly. You know, this is like you can't do this. We have such a special connection. You know, the high school. We're going to be together forever type of ideals.

And I'm just like, yeah, no. I just, I kind of want to live my life. Sorry. Alive. Live. Keyword. Key word. Breathe.

You know, circulate the blood. That kind of thing. So he flips out and I just kind of we I'm on, I ended up being on the phone with him for like an hour and a half and I'm just like this is enough. So we hang up not very amicably, but I didn't like hang up on him. But the point is it was over. I was done with him. Almost immediately he starts blowing up my phone. Like call me back. We need to talk, this, that and the other. We have an idea. Like we can work this out, you know, all the stuff. And I figured that was going to happen. to an extent because of how controlling he's been. So I just ignored it. But I didn't want... Because what's you going to do, kill you? Right.

What are you going to do? Get down here with this no license, having I asked? So... Hey, can you take me to another state to kill my girlfriend, please, mom? Yeah, hey, mom. Get mom. Right, exactly. I, you know, continue to live my life.

The next week goes by, he doesn't stop. I thought it would be like a day or two, but he's continuing to blow me up. But I don't want to block him because I'm like, what if he texts me, hey, I'm on my way to your parents' house and I'm going to kill them because they're within like a six-hour commute, you know, and they don't know anything.

So like I need to know the minute I need to hit the switch and call my parents and let them know, like, hey, you might be in danger, maybe possibly. Don't worry about it, but it could happen. So I'm like trying to keep an eye out, but like I'm also not really involved in it. I'm trying to like write it off at this point in my life. So long,

Story short, my friends obviously notice that I can't really ever use my phone because it's constantly preoccupied by somebody else calling me or somebody else sending me 100,000 billion text messages. So I clue them in a little bit because I don't want to lose my new friends because I think that I'm crazy having dated a psycho. So I kind of let them know he's not really, you know, mentally stable and I kind of realized it at the end. He was just very controlling. I did ultimately because we got really close, tell them about the situation.

where he wanted to kill me to kind of say like he's not a safe person and that was within like that first two weeks that he was blowing me up did they believe you were they like oh my gosh were they yeah they luckily were very accepting and supporting which i don't know if i was really that was like the first time i had told anybody and i didn't know yeah how did that feel yeah it was just weird it was surreal it was almost a relief but like not quite because it felt like something was wrong and i didn't know what it was. I later learned through therapy that it was because I had been violently sexually assaulted for like a year. And at that point, I didn't realize that that was even a factor in this. So none of that was told to them because I had no idea that it wasn't consensual because I didn't

know what consent was because they don't teach that in the high school that I went to. Nope. They like you said, they, they say don't have sex, don't have babies or you'll die. Boy and girl make baby, baby bad. Like that. Yep, that's exactly right. So I told them that and they're like, He's weird. So eventually, like, at the end of the second week, it becomes a game. And every time he calls, it's like, we'll have a drinking game about it. Or, like, when he calls, they'll answer the phone and be like, hello? Like, weird stuff to just, like, annoy him.

Because everybody knows he's, like, on off his rocker, but also far enough away to be harmless. Hopefully. Oh, my gosh. Did that help you a little bit to have, like, a little levity? Yeah. But it didn't last long. Oh. Because about.

two and a half, three weeks after I ignored him and ignored him. And he was antagonized by my friends, which like in hindsight, like that was totally unnecessary. Like we all could have gone without that. Like that was kind of a dick move on my part. But also I was like so over it. He pulled out all the stops with the murder comment. He can screw right off. So I'm, I lived in the honors building because I was in the honors college at my school. this was a very brand new spanking nice building with all glass, all windows. And we lived on the second floor out of five or six. And on the bottom floor, it was the dining hall, the new one for campus. But this is an all glass building. So we're sitting there, finding our business at breakfast,

eating in the beautiful morning light, my roommate and I, and we're sitting across the table from one another and she gets this concerned look on her face and she's looking past me not at me. I'm like, are you, are you okay? Oh. And she goes, is that Drew? I turned around and standing just outside the glass window staring in at me is Drew. Is your ex who has said he wants to kill you? Yeah.

What happened? So I now go through and read the messages that he's been sending me and look at the text of the voicemails, trying to figure out what the is going on. Has he seen you? Yeah, he's staring at me through the window. Like, he's, he's found me. So, like, when she saw him, he was, like, looking around trying to figure out what was going on. He knew from us having been together that I was in the Honors College and that the Honors College was near the dining hall. So he, you know, there's signs on a college campus

that tell you what's where. Oh, yeah. So he figured it out. And he saw me in there. Like, he just right place, right time. And he saw, me turn around. We locked eyes and I like flip, you know, did that thing like in the movies where they're like flipping back around like, oh my gosh. Like, so I'm like panicking and I'm like, I have to go to class, but I have to leave this building to go to class. So I'm sitting there with my roommate and I'm like begging her. Like please, will you walk me to my next class just so I don't have to go alone? And she's like, yeah, yeah, I'll totally walk with you. And so I'm texting all my friends like trying to line up somebody to escort me back after class. And I have like four classes that day. So like I've got

a pack schedule. So my roommate and I are walking to the first class the whole time we're walking there, which is like from the one end of campus to the middle of campus. He's tailing us. And like not like from a distance in a stalker kind of way from like right behind me like Clara, Clara, you need to talk to me. Like we need to talk about this. We need to discuss what's happened. Like literally right behind literally like yelling at me and we're just like pretending he's not there and he's just like I came all this way you owe me a conversation like you I don't know you shit to me to talk to me and I was like I just I didn't want to engage I didn't want to talk to him so I didn't and so I got to my building my academic building which was a super old building so because it was as old as it is it doesn't have as many of like

the security like scan and locks so he just followed someone right in behind me because it was class change time So he comes into the academic building and I go into my classroom. I've got my friend lined up to come get me after class, but they're like across campus and they're the only one that can come to walk me out afterwards. But he sits and I'm figuring like my class is like an hour almost, if not a little bit more. Like he's going to leave, right? Like he's going to go find something to do in the meantime. He sat in the hallway outside my classroom staring at me for the full hour plus.

Oh my God. while I was in class. And I'm not at all paying attention to class. Of course not. Obviously, because I'm like, what am I going to do? How do I get out of this? And I'm just like frantically at the end of the lecture, like trying to figure out something that was said so I can ask a question to stall for time so that I'm not with

him in the hallway alone or he doesn't feel like I'm alone enough to come into the classroom and talk to me. So I, luckily there's a couple of students that had a question. Apparently it was a very important lecture, which was difficult to make up later. I don't know what they said. I don't pay attention, no. So I go up to my professor and I start talking to her and asking questions. And luckily, she's one of those really long-winded people.

And I love her for it so much. Give it to me. Like, start that over. And, like, I was just, like, prolonging the question. And then I see my friend come. and he is coming to escort me when I was like, okay, next bye. And I got up and left,

and my friend is walking me to my next class. And like, this guy's like, like, six, five, like pushing like 280, like, like, Drew is not going to mess with him. Like, it's not going to happen. So we're walking away. And Drew is, like, still yelling from behind me. Like, are you going to talk to me?

Are you going to make me waste my time and come here for you to just ignore me? And yes, goodbye. My friend looks at me and he's like, do you want me to confront him? Do you want me to say something? I was like, no, because I don't want to get in trouble. I don't want to get kicked out of this school.

I don't want to be the cause of a big scene in the middle of a hallway. I don't want to, I don't want this. And I don't know why he's here. And so this continues all day. And at one point, I turned around him and been like, please leave. And he just took that as an initiative. Like, that was a mistake because he just started talking to me more, like, following me more. And so finally, by the end of the day, we're like, we don't know how to get rid of him.

don't have any more classes, but he obviously knows what dorm I'm in. God forbid, he tries to follow me in there. Right. So we evaluate and we determine, like, if we tell campus police, they're not going to do anything because he's just following us. He's not, like, he's not attacking us. Doing anything wrong yet. Right. Oh, shit. And you don't have anything in writing other than, like, any actual threats other than a lot of his texts. Right. So it's like, what are, what are they going to do? Like, be like, you shouldn't do that. And then, like, now I'm on the radar. He's going to be like, okay, fella. And then he's going to be like, okay, my bad. Like, I'm sorry. Now, in hindsight, they would definitely have trespassed him and escorted him off

property. But I didn't know that at time. Like, I had no idea that that was a thing. That is good to know. Yeah. So college campuses, if you're not a student and there's a non-student on campus, like, harassing you, even if it's a public property, because this is a public university, they can still trespass them from the property if they don't have a valid reason to be there. Of course, I didn't know that. So my friends and I can cock this plan where we're going to start a volleyball game at the volleyball court that's right outside their dorm building. Their dorm building was built in the 80s and is actually doubled as a nuclear bomb shelter. So the security on their building is intense and it's hard to get in because you,

they're in like a special building for their major, their group of majors. So that group of majors are the only ones on campus with key cards. access into that building because it's like an academic housing unit. So our plan is because their building has like, you scan into the building, then you scan into the interior of the building, then you scan into the elevator, then you scan into the dorm, like the hall to the dorm. Then you scan into the dormit. Like there's layers upon layers upon layers of security.

So like even if you get past like three of them, you've got four more to go. So the plan is we're going to start a volleyball game and we're going to include him in it. And he's going to be so excited to be, like, part of the group because we've been ignoring him all day. And he's going to think it's our normal invitation. Like, yeah, we'll talk. But, like, let's play a game first because he's kind of stupid. I mean, we've established that. Well, clearly.

Yeah. He's not one that's hard to fool. But we're going to do this. And then I'm going to be like, oh, I have to go to the bathroom. Can someone let me in the building real quick? But then I'm not going to come out. So we execute this plan. It's flawless.

I get into the bomb shelter building and everybody else leaves him there and they just leave him in the courtyard by himself. So it goes well and he's standing out there and we're like watching him out the eighth story window of this building. Like is he going to... Yeah, when is he going to find a way in here was what we were thinking?

Yeah. And is he going to camp out there all night? Like what's going on? And so finally I see some dude who I later found out as an older brother that I had no idea existed. Apparently he had an older brother this full time who drove him there.

From Ohio. What? Ah! Yeah. So this guy drives around and picks him up and he leaves. And so his older brother drove him from Ohio to Georgia to follow me around all day. And I have no idea what his brother did all day. Like, what that heck are you doing?

Driving your younger brother down across the country for a day trip. That's crazy. Insane. Who was this brother? Who was he? I don't even know how he was related. Don't even know his real names, like, to this day. I have no idea, like, just gone, like, total.

And then it's like, what else didn't you know? Right. Like, the layers just keep unfolding here. Like, it's like, it never stops. He called me after the whole stalking incident and said, I'm going to kill myself and it's all your fault. Oh, bless it, Jesus. I can't.

And he called me because I finally answered it because I didn't know if he was going to show him at my parents' house next. I was like, I'm so sorry that you're in such a bad headspace. I think you need to find professional help. I can't help you if you truly feel suicidal. Being with me is not going to make you feel any different. I really think you need to seek help from a professional. I hung up on him and at that point I blocked him.

Good. So. So classic to use that to manipulate. So it was like his last card. So college continues and like I'm starting to realize how abnormal this relationship was. I'm starting to realize, like, huh, this was like a lot worse than I thought it was. Like, I knew the murder thing was bad, but like everything else was bad too. And so this is my first time starting to uncover all of these different layers. And I start going to therapy and like I start like this deep,

depressive episode in the middle of the school year because like I'm realizing everything that happened to me, minus the sexual assault. Like we haven't even uncovered that yet. Probably feeling like it's your fault. Yeah. I felt like I walked myself into that situation or like I'm so broken. Like, I let this happen. I start dealing with it, but it's, like, really hard. And I have my friend group from college, but, like, you know, when, like, we're out of school or, like, there's times that I go back to Vermont and things, there's not that extra, you know, like they have support systems outside of our friend group, but the summer comes around

and they announce the staff list for the next year's camp staff. You'll never guess who's on it in addition to me. No, yes, huh? We didn't, we just didn't go, right? Like, we're done now. Like, what is the end? Right? Like every time I thought it was over, it was not over. So the staff list got announced and he was on it, of course, and all our previous friends were on it. And I was just like, I really want to do this. I do want to do this. This is my last place that I know is like a safe space for me outside of college. Right. Yeah. So they ask at the beginning of the summer, like, we don't have any lifeguards. Can some people sign up to be lifeguards? Like, we'll pay you an extra five cents, which is like, like a lot for us because we make like 32 cents an hour. We make like 200 bucks a week. We're like,

yeah, I want to do that. So I sign up for it. A few other people sign up for it. Drew is not one of the people that signs up for it. So like, thank you. But I go for lifeguard training because they're going to certify us and all that good stuff. And that starts a week before normal staff training. And I've been in therapy at this point. I'm like, all of this was not normal. This is not okay. And also, I'm now terrified because I'm like, I'm going to be in close proximity to Drew for the first time since the whole stalking incident across the country thing happened. And again, there's that night every week where he's going to know where my body will lie in the woods unattended by no one other than like a bunch of 12 year olds. So like, I'm horrified. And I'm like, I don't like I do want to do this, but I don't want to do this.

but I don't want to do it with him in the picture. But I don't want to cause a problem because this is my last place of safety. And I've always had this place. This is like my 14th year at this point there. You don't know anything different. So I make the decision, which is the most horrifying decision of my life, to tell my bosses. I have two bosses at this camp.

One's a pastor. The other one is this big macho guy who's like super scary, who I've seen crushed like a 72 ounce can in one hand. Like he's huge. and terrifying and overtly, like, just, you know, strong. So these are basically my two father figures that I've known for, like, seven plus years since they've been the bosses here. And I am, one, embarrassed to tell them that I've been through this.

But two, like, I'm scared because I don't want them to be like, well, we don't need that here. Like, you should probably find something else to do this summer because I don't know how they're going to react. So I make the decision that I'm going to tell them before all the rest of the staff gets there. So I sit them down. And this is the first time ever that I have fully recounted the story of when he told me he wanted to kill me. And I couldn't make it through it the whole way without just totally breaking down. And I felt like a, I felt like a fake person.

Like I felt like I was playing it up to like get my story across, which is like obviously not true. But like I still felt this guilt about it. Oh, I know that feeling 100% You feel like you're being overdramatic Yep And I felt like it was going to be perceived as that Like I was worried that they were going to be like She's just trying to do this

So that we take her side or like something You know But the whole time The pastor, my boss is sitting there Just you know Listening but like clearly very shocked and horrified But like trying to like maintaining very good composure The macho guy

Who is like the most intimidating person to this day that I have ever met is literally sinking into the collar of his jacket because he's so scared about what I'm going to say next. That's like us this whole time. That's me. And I've only told them the story of the night that he wanted to kill me. And remember, this was on their watch. Like not it wasn't, but it was because this was in the middle of the summer when I worked for

them. And then I went the rest of the summer and they had no idea. They had no idea that this had gone on. They had no idea I was scared for my life the whole second half of the summer. Again, nobody ever asked me, you know, what's going on? Like, are you okay? You seem different. Like, nobody ever said anything.

So, on one hand, they're appalled and afraid that this person is, like, out there and has worked for them under the radar. But on the other hand, they're, like, appalled that they didn't notice it. And they say that. And they're like, how did we not know that this was going on? Like, why didn't you come to us? And I, you know, I was like, I don't know. Don't ask me. so we sit there and talk about it for like maybe an hour and at the end of it they're like you know

we need to talk about it you know the two of us as bosses but I think I can say safely like we don't want him on staff and I went into this only asking and I made this like the preface of my whole conversation I said I'm only telling you this because I don't want to be placed in a unit with him because the units which is the way they separate the age groups are the ones that know where everybody else is on the overnight nights. So I was saying, like, I, like, I don't want, I'm not asking you to fire him. I'm not asking you to take his job. I'm not asking you to make, like, a drastic move here. I just don't want to be on the same unit as he's on for my safety. Like, if I could just keep my place anonymous, that would be great. And so at the end of the

whole conversation, they were like, yeah, we're not doing that. We don't want him here at all. Like, somebody like that cannot work with children, which is, like, the normal adult thing to say. Yeah, but you're not used to having adults in your life who care about children. Exactly. Exactly. That's huge. So they say we're going to terminate him on one condition. You have to tell your parents. Smart.

I'm, well, because they didn't know my relationship with my parents. That's tricky. Yeah. I was thinking, yeah, that should be the next thing. But also at this point, it depends on if you have a safe relationship with your parents. And it's like, well, you know how your parents. parents feel. So that is tricky. Hannah, I agree. So it was tough. And I was 19 at this point. So like we're like we've moved on up the age bracket. Also, you need to try and get a restraining order because he's already

in Vermont for the summer. Like he's here. Staff training is next week. Like he's he's back from Ohio. So we're going to ban him from property. But we need something legally to protect you because this is like really dangerous for you. So this is the first time like, earlier you asked me like did that feel real when that happened this was the first time like it felt real real I was like oh yeah maybe I am in danger like I knew I was in danger but I didn't like no I was in danger yeah you were defending you were absolutely it makes so much sense to me that your defense mechanism was to kind of keep a weird distance from it like in your head and your body so they're telling me like you need to go get a restraining order you need to tell your parents

and so I make the decision I'm like, okay, well, it's worth it to me if it means I don't have to be around him this whole summer again because that was hell last summer. So I go home, I sit down with my mom, and I tell her, and it's like, she's just staring at me with no expression. Did you tell her everything?

I told her the story of the night he tried to kill me. That was the only thing I told anybody because I didn't want to like blow it out of proportion because obviously I was so melodramatic. So I told her that And she was like How could you let somebody like that into my house?

And I was like, I am sorry And she's like, it's not okay that you put your brother And us in that kind of danger Because you just didn't want to say anything. I mean, I kind of agree with that. Like I understand. But also if you had been a better mom and more supportive, I would have felt comfortable coming to you.

When you don't feel like you're going to be supported if you do say something. And that wasn't. But also, I do want to, I do kind of want to mention real quick, like, well, we can talk about this in the end or whatever, but I just, I feel like so many people say, well, if that happened, why didn't you say something? This right here. There's situations where you don't, you feel like it's your fault number one. And then they blame you. Someone's going to tell you, you're dramatic. Or you already feel like it's your fault because you didn't, whatever. That's exactly. Yeah. That's the equivalent. And that's why I didn't recognize the sexual assault for. what it was for like four or five years after that because I was like, well, I didn't physically

fist bite him, so obviously I must have wanted it. So after your mom like said that to you, what happened after that? And then my mom's like, well, we should go get like a restraining order or something. I'm glad that you were able to tell us and now we have to like clean up after you kind of thing. Like we have to clean up your mess. That's disgusting. Yeah. I mean, she didn't use those words, but that was like the message she was conveying. So it's like, oh, this annoying, inconvenience. And this is why people don't speak up. We went to the police station and I told them everything again, the fourth time ever.

I've ever said it to anybody. And they said, yep, that's terrible. We can't do anything about that. Sorry, go home. Because I didn't have anything in writing. Didn't have proof that he came to stalk me. Didn't have proof that he told me he was going to kill me because that was face to face. Didn't even have like a phone call log to show like this is when he called me and did it.

so they were saying like we can't there's you don't have any evidence for a restraining order it's just he said you didn't mention you didn't mention the rape the sexual assault I didn't know it was rape so no right still no okay yep nope it wasn't for years after that until I did so I took that and was like well they're not going to help me so I went and hit out at a friend's house from high school that drew didn't know and had never met and I hit at their house for a week or so until like staff training went into full swing and I knew he was gone back to Ohio and so at that point I went back to work and things were okay sort of I of course wasn't going to go around and tell everybody at camp what happened because that's not you're ashamed of it yeah one biggest

I'm ashamed of it but two like it's not anybody's business what happened and I'm not here to just slander other people. But of course, everybody knows. You're a better person than us. Much better person than a lot of these people that are screaming at their speakers right now, screaming. So I get back to camp and between this time when I went back and when I told my parents, he had, he's blocked on my phone.

So he had his stepmom call my mom to beg for his job. back. What? Because they fired him and they didn't tell him that it was because of what I told them. They just said some things have come up in the background check about your character. We just don't feel that you're the best fit for camp this year. So he was probably like, well, the only logical thing is she told them because she's there right now. So his stepmom calls my mom. And my mom, like, this is the first time my mom like really stood up for me. She was like, do you know what your son did? Like, do she tell on him? Does she spill her good? Oh, yeah. She told, Praise of laying.

She told Drew's stepmom the whole story. What did the stepmom say? Was she like, no, not my boy? The stepmom is a super well put together lawyer type. Very, very has her peas and cues together. She was horrified that this happened. But she believed her? Yeah, she believed my mom 100%.

Thank God. And she was like, because she knew. Yeah, she was like, I know him. Like, I know how he is. I don't trust him as far as I can throw his ass. So she was like, I'm so sorry to have bothered you and left, like I never heard from them again on that side of things. But what ended up happening was I went back to camp after the whole hideout situation. And everybody noticed the first week of staff training that he wasn't there.

And so questions start coming up. What happened? Yeah. Yeah. And so people start reaching out to him. Somebody's missing. Is he okay? Is he gone?

Is he dead? Like what is it? So he takes that as an opportunity to say, Clara got me fired. And she said a bunch of terrible things about me. And somehow, and I still don't know how, he admitted to what he did, but did it in such a way that manipulated our friend group into thinking, like, it wasn't really that bad, though.

The threat to kill you, not the- Threat to kill me. Yeah, because I wasn't going to be like, no, he didn't do anything wrong. Like, if they- How do you downplay that? I still want to know. Like, I still don't know. freaking clue. So how do you downplay that? Right? So I'm like, oh my god. He probably said that you were

fighting and he was just like, oh, I want to kill you sometimes. That's probably it. You made a whole thing out of it. I still don't know what he said to do it, but that was probably it. So the camp kind of like split evenly into thirds at that point. Like a third of them just believed him and thought that I was just vengeful and just didn't want to work with my ex. A third of them didn't want to be involved at it at all. And so they didn't want to take sides. So they weren't going to talk to him, but they also weren't going to talk to me. And then a third of them didn't really care and didn't want to be a part of it, didn't want to be involved in it, didn't want, didn't care to know about it. So they just would talk to me as normal. So over the course of the summer, talking to the one third of them

that would still talk to me, I learned that the previous summer, he had told everybody all of these things, but none of it had actually happened. Like what? Like all of the horrible thing. Like he'd say like, you know, your friend Julie came up and said this to me and like you're super annoying sometimes. And I'd be like, yeah, I'm like, and I'd say, like, we'd be talking like as co-workers. And I'd be like, I'm super sorry if this is really annoying to you. She'd be like, you never annoy me. And I'd be like, but last year, Drew was saying like, I can get on your nerves sometimes. And I just, I really want to say, I'm sorry if that was ever the case. I was just going through a lot. And she'd be like, I'd never said that ever. I would never say that.

And so it was starting to come to light that he had made up all of these stories on both sides of the coin. So I finally was like getting some friends back, but it was just never the same. Like we just lost that like really super close connection that we had had before. And so he like his last move was to take away like my final group of closest friends. And then that was it. Then I never heard from him again. And to my knowledge, he has a new girlfriend now. Like, I checked his Facebook page a year ago.

And he's got, there was a girlfriend in his profile picture, like very obviously a girlfriend. And I was like, I feel so bad for her. Because what if she's like me? You know, because he didn't pick me by accident. Like, you know he picked someone that he felt like he could manipulate. Because if there was one thing I learned, it was how intensely, emotionally manipulative he was. And you don't pick people to manipulate by. accident like you're strategic about that stuff so he's just out there all willy-nilly like not not

killing folks like hopefully not killing i don't know if he's killing folks or not hopefully not i haven't heard anything about it okay so we've so you haven't heard from this guy since no i couldn't i couldn't if i wanted to because i blocked him on snapchat instagram facebook phone do you ever fear that he'll like it's only i mean it's only been like what five years yes four four five years i developed complex PTSD from him driving, well, being driven across the country to stalk me. And he knew where my family's home was. And I lived there my last two years of college because I needed to save money. Not to mention threatening your life. Yeah. So he knows where I live. He's seen my family's property and knows how to get there. He has shown that he'll go to extreme lengths to find me if he really wants to. And so I was so

terrified the entire time I lived there. My first three or so months living there, I had to consistently have a nighttime ritual, the full-blown PTSD where you have the same ritual where you like lock the doors, close all the blinds, make sure the doors are locked the second time, obsess over exactly where the placement of your defense weapon is so that you can get to it in case like you roll over a certain way at night and it's not where you thought you would be or like just like the intensity of like what if he shows up. Anytime a delivery person would come down the driveway because we had like a driveway you could hear it. I would have a full-blown panic attack like oh my gosh, he's here. Even though there was no, like I hadn't heard from him in years at that point. There's no reason

for him to be there. It was just a lot. And then as time went on, like towards the end of my college career and after years of therapy for a variety of things at this point, I realized that what I had experienced was sexual assault and that the reason I was so depressed, like I had had like a bit of depression before, but it was mostly just anxiety, but like after that like I had had these horrible depressive episodes and like I stopped eating and I stopped doing like it was just bad and I realized finally it was because of the sexual assault and it was like once I realized that a lot of the perspective shifted and it was finally like I don't want to say it was freeing to know that because that's just not the case but it was it was a relief in that I felt like that missing dreadful

pit in my stomach that I couldn't fit the puzzle piece into like I finally had figured out what that was that was just something that had been taking a piece of me for so long without me even knowing about it. Because the things that you don't think about that or like subconscious opinions of yourself, like the way you look at yourself in the mirror, the way you feel when you have to get undressed to take a shower. Like those things were things that became horrible for me. And I couldn't tell why until. And you don't immediately like when that happens, like you don't immediately go, oh, this is because he was on my body. Like you don't even think about it, right?

think that. Like, you don't think that, but it's like, it's almost like you immediately get these thoughts in your head and this, right? Like, you just, you don't automatically associate it with that particular situation. But once you realize it later, you're like, holy crap. It was to the extreme that like the first time I went on a date after this, it was, like, I didn't have a bad time on date. It was a great date.

Didn't end up like seeing the guy after that or whatever. But like, it wasn't a bad experience. He had like given me a kiss on the cheek before he left. Like it wasn't anything intense. I wasn't like against it. But I went home in the shower and like rub that spot on my face to get it clean so hard that it left an abrasion. Because I didn't want the feeling of somebody else on me. And I didn't know that it was because I had been assaulted.

And like I had this giant open sore in my face and like anywhere that like he had like touched me or like held my hand or something just because I was trying to like wash it off. Yes, you were rejecting it. Yeah. But I couldn't. I couldn't figure out why I was like. like what was wrong with me what is my problem what am i internal i like and it was just this long process of oh it's not my fault like i i'm not broken i was broken by somebody and it just it takes so long to be able to figure it's really scary to come to terms with it yeah it's it's as bad as

it is to not you know understand what's happened to you it's at least safer in the dark sometimes Yeah, it's like the list. Well, and it's something you can, when it's when it's something that's taken from you, like your virginity, like they always say you always remember your first. And unfortunately, for some people, that's true. Yeah. It was, it was something that definitely stuck with me for a while. You said, like you said, you always remember your first. And for me, until I realized that it was a salt, it still was my first. And so I had continued to live under all of the emotional manipulations to that point. Like, will you? you already did this thing on your terms. So if you continue to do it now with other people, now that it's years and years and years later, like you're still disgusting to God was kind of like his. And like I don't hold like the same standard of religious belief as far as the fundamentalist conservatism that I grew up under,

which is like it's not right, wrong or indifferent. But I continued to have that guilt anytime I would become intimate with anybody, even today, like in a very healthy relationship. relationship in a very much consensual situation. Like, I still will have panic attacks sometimes afterwards. Like, this is something that I shouldn't be doing when there's obviously, like, no, you know, ambiance behind it of anymore. So it's just one of those things, you know. But I mean, like, my message to parents out there is, like, I was 17 when this started. And nobody thought,

like, yeah, I had a brain injury. Yeah, I had a lot going on. High schoolers are weak. They're a lot of emotions and, like, difficult things. And a lot of the times they don't want to talk to you. Like, just check in with them, man. I didn't have the opportunity at any point for anyone to say, hey, how are you doing today? And I could have lied if someone asked me and been like, yeah, I'm fine. And I probably would have knowing me.

But, like, I didn't even have the chance to be like, I think something's wrong. I didn't have that opportunity. And, like, if... Or at least have the comfort of knowing that someone asking and that just knowing that they were there if you did decide that you wanted to talk to them, even if you never did. And like it's not just parents.

It's like teachers, educators, people that deal with kids. Friends. Like you would think adults in trained settings, coaches of sports teams or educators of high schoolers, they would recognize signs like that. But like, they've got so much going on all the time. It's hard. And a lot of the times it just gets overlooked. But like if you have that feeling, like, because I,

know there were at least a few teachers that kind of noticed, but didn't want to ask questions because we just grew up in that type of town. Like, you just don't ask. Everybody's business is their own. Like, if they had just said, like, hey, do you need five minutes? Like, do you, do you want to talk or like, are you okay? I might have not ended up where I was. I wanted to read you a little part of a DM that we got. And we have this podcast, but we don't have this podcast without you and people like you share your story. And we do know that it helps a lot of people. We're grateful for that,

but it's really because of your bravery coming on and sharing these stories. There's a mom who DM does. She's the mom that I wish you had, but she just specifically said she was excited for a new flavor of true crime that her daughters could enjoy with her. And every Monday and Tuesday,

they make dinner together, they listen, and then they spend the rest of the week discussing relationships, love, trust, red flags, all of it. When I was growing up, my parents just said, don't trust boys. There wasn't any discussion about why or how or what to do after. It was just hush, hush, and shameful to go any further. But these stories have given us a closer connection because they know they can come to me and talk about it. And that was like crazy for us to get. And I want

you to know that your story is going to make another parent's relationship with their kids easier because it is hard to talk to your kids about this stuff. We want to be the podcast that does it for you. So you don't have to say sex if it's hard to say sex to your kid. But you can still know that those things are like coming up for them. I don't know. I just hope that I know that your story will absolutely help people. Yeah. And I hope that you know that. Not to mention also, thank you for sharing that, Hannah. Thank you to the person that wrote that in. And thank you, Clara, hugely. Just to know that this happened to you when you were 17 years old, that's underage. That's not adult yet. Like that's a child. So this does obviously.

impact. That's why earlier when you said rape and then you're like, no, sexual assault. And I was like, no, we're calling a spade a spade. We are calling it rape. We are saying the mean, ugly word that everybody says, oh, don't say that word. We say sexual assault. Why? Why are we babysitting this word? Because we feel like we're being overdramatic, because we feel like we're going to make other people uncomfortable. Exactly. We didn't do anything. The more uncomfortable we make it to say, the more uncomfortable we make the act and the more that we talk about it the more if it's uncomfortable it should be it absolutely should be and so that's where i feel like people are like oh well was it rape and you know with your with your story you say i didn't know that it was rape at that time like you know that you know

you didn't want this and you said no or you you know you pushed it away or whatever but consent is not Hannah what's it called oh coercion or and you have to have informed consent no excited consent or Oh, enthusiastic. Enthusiasmic, yes. If it's not an enthusiastic yes, it's a no, solid, done. Whether you are married. Enthalibated. Enthusiastic.

Yes. And sober. And sober. That doesn't flow as well, but that's in there. No, but it's true, though. And we have been so conditioned to say, oh, don't say rape. Like it wasn't in an alleyway. He didn't force himself on you.

Did he not? Is he, is someone not? Is someone not manipulating your mind? The biggest thing is if it happens once, that's a rape. If it happens 50 times, that's a rape. The hardest thing for me to accept was that I quote, let it continue happening. And I said because I could have stopped it at any point but didn't, it must mean that I actually did want it.

But that's not true. It's still rape. Clara, thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you for having me. I know. I don't want to keep you, but you have a nice boyfriend you said? Amazing. Even together, just give us a quick.

A year and a half. He's great. I love that for you. This is, this is him. Oh, wait. Okay. Oh my gosh. You're so cute.

He's so sweet. He's sweet. Okay, well, keep us posted. I will. Yeah, he's fantastic. This is the first relationship where like every single time I know I'm safe, he not only does the bare minimum, but also goes the extra mile he provides. He does all the things that like you would think to look for and expect.

Like, having come from my background, I never. you know, looked for or expected any of that. And like, I'm learning what it means to be healthy from him. And that is something I never could have imagined learning from anybody ever. That is so great. So I'm so happy to hear that. Well, we really appreciate you sharing your experiences and your story. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Oh, my Lanta. That's a lot to unpack, right? There's so much for the dogfish debrief that we have to go through. The, the Showing up at the college, I mean, I was not, some people said in the interim, they were like, he's going to go to the same school as her, like, he's going to follow her. And I'm glad he didn't do that,

but just to show up like that, oh my God, I was terrified. But I do think, I know that there are a lot of colleges, if not all of them now have like some kind of thing where they can like kick you off the campus if you don't go there, right? Like, they'll get rid of you. Like, you can't just show up all willy-nilly. Like, you got to go. That's our first dogfish debrief lesson. We're she shared. She didn't think she could do anything because it's like he's just here. Like he's not actually threatening me violently. She didn't have any proof. She's like, I couldn't go tell anyone because what would they do? But then later she learned that they can kick anyone. He doesn't even go here. He doesn't even go here. I guess if there's any.

Yeah, like the law is different. The rules are different at a school, which I knew that about elementary school and like public schools that they can, if you're, if you don't belong there, no questions asked. I'm pretty sure they can get it. The F out. Okay, so that's good to know if you're ever feeling unsafe on your college campus. Yeah. Okay. I mean, like, there's some lighter stuff and there's some heavier stuff. So, well, some of the heavier stuff for me was when he was, okay, the manipulation of her virginity, right?

Like, basically saying, like, you, now that we've had sex, like, now you just, now we have to do it all the time because, like, now you're basically. You already lost it. Yeah, you're not pure anymore. So might as well keep doing it. And so she felt manipulated. And I just want to, I just want everyone to remember this. She's 17. She's still a child.

Like this is, I know everyone thinks when you're 17 or 19, 19 years old, like, you're all mature. You're an adult. Like, yeah, sure, in the eyes of the law when you turn 18, you're an adult. But that maturity still really isn't there. Your experience isn't there. And so when he says that, she believes him. And I mean, she's only 17. Of course she believes him.

Like, this is someone that she, you know, that she's like. like, you know, at least a little bit. Like I just feel like he really took advantage of that. Well, let's talk about the concept of virginity because I looked into this after we talked to her because I knew the basics, but like, how much do you know about the concept of virginity as being a myth? Because a lot of people, obviously there is a before and after. Like you can't deny that in a lot of cases, it's like you've never been with somebody

and then you have. You have. But some of the, like I was looking into why the concept. of virginity is so harmful in a lot of ways, like she really did feel like damaged goods. And I just, I don't, it makes me so, so, so sad that that can happen, that you have such a high, you hold this to such a high standard. And I know for some people, it is totally understandable. And I respect the value of wanting to hold virginity to a high standard. If you want to wait till marriage or whatever your beliefs are, I'm not saying that that's a bad thing.

as long as we are able to also have the conversation about what rape is. And that in this case or in any case, you are not damaged goods if that happens to you, no matter your beliefs, no matter your age, no matter your relationship to the person. They can be your husband or wife or partner in any capacity. It can still happen. And that conversation is too often just not there. Yeah. And I feel like with whether it is,

personal feelings, personal belief, or whether it's religious or whether it's your upbringing, whatever the reason is, I feel like whenever you lose that, like, whenever you lose that purity, as some know it as or your virginity, whatever you want to call it, I feel like that is, like there's just something so sacred about that. So I totally get it. And for that to be taken from you by someone with ill intent is the worst feeling ever. I know from personal experience. It is not, it is just something that you can never get back and you do feel damage. Like there is a sense of,

and for her to, you know, feel that way, but also I can imagine she felt really torn because this is also someone that, you know, she loves. That she loves, you know, so whether or not, like she just, it's just a lot to unpack for her, especially at that age. And I just can't even imagine. And I know, especially learning from the Patreon,

like we said in the beginning, so many others, so many of you have the same experience. And it's, it's awful. There's so many things that can be sacred and to have any of them tarnished by this, like how that affects your relationship to your own sexuality. Like there's, that is so confusing to have to navigate what is already confusing terrain of figuring out your sexuality and then to throw on top of it the shame of assault. And I think that happens.

Because it does feel shameful and you do feel like it's your fault because it's so, it's one of those things that's like you, when someone gets in your head like that, you do feel like it's your fault. And that is the absolute worst. And you carry that. You carry that forever. And in some cases, you carry that for almost 30 years.

Like it affects everyone's relationship to sex. Now it's like you have to build back your safety in sex. I know that was a lot. And we just appreciate you guys sharing your own experiences. And I want more. I just feel like the louder we speak about this, the more we talk about it, the, I think the more light we shine on it. Like if it's hiding in the dark, then you know what I mean?

Like the more it's in the dark, the more people like keep it quiet. But the more we shine light on it, I hope that the louder we get, the more attention we bring to it and the less it will happen. That's what I'm hoping for. So but also can we talk about how he said, I'm going to kill you and how she freaking handled it? And how he was like, is that normal? And she's like, yeah, that.

No, that's totally normal. Sure, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I felt that myself. And, like, she just handled it with such grace, I think, because she didn't panic. She didn't freak out. She just kept her calm, which I feel like really helped her in that situation. I feel like she could be in hostage negotiation.

Like, the FBI. Like, I want to talk to somebody who does that for a living and hear what they, what their responses to that because I don't think I would have thought to do that. I mean, I don't know what I would have said. I guess you're in the moment. She's sitting there in front of him. I don't know what I would have done. I don't know what I would have done.

And I think now we know he didn't go through with it, but it's like in that moment, she said she didn't know if he would. And I felt it too. I was like, I totally see him attacking her. So I know that she lived. But as she was saying, I was like, oh, my God, is he going to kill her? Oh, my God. And like, my breath was in my throat.

I was like, oh, my God, does it kill her? But she was obviously there to tell him this story. that's how intense it was. I was like, what do you freaking do? I love the moment. I think you did say, you were like, are your parents still alive? Like, you just went for it. You were like, I just got a check. Did he kill them? Like, what happened? He did not. Oh, I have a question for you. Oh, yeah. He said this to her in person, no proof. Because she didn't feel safe with her family or friends or anyone. She didn't tell anybody because she was afraid of him, afraid of what he would do. I understand her reasoning.

I know that if that happens to you, it's for your own benefit to tell somebody. But like, how can she protect herself in the event of a threat that is not provable? Like that happens over face to face. Is it like keeping, does keeping a journal in writing down events, does that help you at all potentially?

Like, what should you do? Yes. So oftentimes, because there is such sensitivity around the topic of telling someone, like when do you tell? kind of like and like not to get too much into it but like the me too movement when people were coming out talking about what happened to them and then years later other people were saying hey

that happened to me too 20 years ago 30 years ago whatever and it's like why didn't they say anything then it's because there's so much shame surrounding it and so much fear and so that's why people don't talk but the more we talk about it like the more we continue to talk about it the more we make it okay to talk about it so when you're in a situation where you're like Okay, I've just been written. It's my word against theirs. Yeah, it's my word against theirs. I have no proof of it.

Document it. Write it down. Write it down. Make a note to yourself. Text it to yourself. Text it to yourself. And then every time something happens, there's going to be,

people are going to understand why you didn't talk, but then people that there are going to be people who don't understand. But as long as you document it, a lot of times, there has been precedent when your own documentation, even if you don't call the cops or tell someone, has been admitted as evidence that something happened. So it's not, obviously, there's nothing to substantiate it.

But when you document it, you're basically saying this is the documentation that I'm writing down. You're creating a log of what's happening. So you're basically documenting what's happening to you. Sure, there might be questions. Why didn't you say something? But obviously, also there's going to be empathy there. We hope.

And so if you don't have the courage to tell someone or there's no one that you can tell at least write it down, tell yourself, put it in a journal, text it to yourself, email it to yourself, whatever, so that you can always go back to it later, so you have something to document it. So that way, when you go and you say, oh, well, five years ago, this happened, and I just didn't, I just didn't tell anyone. They're going to be like, well, you know, okay, like you did, you know, you have no proof of it. And you can say, well, actually, I emailed it to myself so that I wouldn't forget, and you go back to your email, you can go, your email, whatever, and say, here it is right here.

I emailed this to myself. So any kind of documentation is better than none. So if you can't or don't have anyone to tell, then definitely just tell yourself, write it down so that you can reference it later. Absolutely. If someone says to your face and you're alone in a room with them and the door is closed and it's like,

you have no one to tell and they say, I just want to murder you. And at this point, like, you're fearful of this person. I don't know if I would be like, F you and like punch them in the face and try to run away. Or if I would, like, I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I have no idea what I would do.

Like she was just like, okay. Well, that's totally normal, honey. Absolutely. She handled it. She did it. And I get why she didn't tell. And I just want any 17 year old or anyone out there to hear that there is someone to tell.

I know that's hard to say. And I don't. I get it. You know, it's like the double side. You said it perfectly before we started recording. You're like, it's a lot to put on somebody. that's going through that. It's a lot to put, like, I want to say, it is your duty to tell someone.

It is your obligation to tell someone so that it doesn't happen to someone else. But I said, that's a lot to put on a victim. And now it's, now it's up to them to save the world. Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah, they didn't ask for this. I didn't say something. I didn't say anything about my rape when I was 13 years old for 30 years. Because I was, I was 13.

I was raped by an older boy. And I didn't know that's what it was. I didn't say anything because I felt shameful. And I was like, this is like, just what's to put my. friends were there and I just didn't want them to like I didn't know like do you know what I mean and I shouldn't have had these guys over I wasn't supposed to have these guys over and but whatever the reason was it's not like you're still that's not something that should happen regardless of if you're in the wrong or whatever so what I feel is that like you if the more we talk about it the more we share

with others the more we talk about it the more we make it okay to talk about the more people will feel comfortable talking about it and the more we can hopefully stop this because it is is happening way too much. Thank you for sharing your experience for the same reason that I thank Clara for sharing her experience because it's so important. We have to talk about it. We have to. And it's not your duty.

It is not your obligation. And if you want to keep it quiet, I totally get it because I do understand the shame behind it. And also protection. Like in this case, like if it's your safety that you're concerned about. Yep. But it sucks that her parents were so wrapped up and, you know, oh, follow the rules to the book and like do all these things right, but there, but where were the parent? Like they were there, but they weren't really there, you know? And so I feel like that really sucks. Oh my God. That made me

angry. And yeah, like, that's your kid, you know? And I get like, I don't know. I get not being friends with your kids, but there has to be a level of some type of friendship there. I know you don't want to be best friends with them. I know you need to be a parent. Like, in my opinion, if your kids hate you, you're doing a great job. Like, do you know what I mean? But, but. I know, I know. I know. I mean. I do feel like there has to be some kind of level of a relationship where you've set an expectation for them that they can at least talk to you. I feel like there's got to be some kind of a happy medium. There's got to be somewhere where you can say, hey, you're safe to talk to me. And I, that just, I feel was missing here. And that really freaking sucks. Devastating.

And she deserved more. Yeah. I'm curious to know what our audience thinks. Like I'm curious to know, obviously our audience is sharing a lot about their own trauma that they went through but I just want to know more if you've never gone through this or whatever like what are your thoughts like what do you think you would do in in this situation like especially if someone says I'm going to kill you like please don't though like no what do you say what do you say and then no no no all the manipulation yeah let's just you're just tired you're just tired and you're being a silly goose but just like I just have, I want to know what other people think about. Like, I'm just curious.

I'd also love if anybody's experience the same kind of numbness response to trauma that she has because that, and we talked about it, like, that's hard to hear and wrap your head around when you're an audience of a podcast. It's easy to sit there and be like, how did you not tell someone or how did you not do anything? And it's very normal to respond by shutting down. So if anyone's experience that and wants to share to make it. I mean, I think it's good we're talking about it because that's, like you said, people are often like, why don't you say anything? And that can be very blammy too.

Like, how could you not say anything? Like, then now, now they feel blamed, you know, and it's not. We want to be the people that have the conversation that we talk about it to understand why they didn't say something, not to put blame on them. And I'll talk about it more so that other people start feeling more confident. I feel like the more we use our voices, especially. on a podcast where a lot of people listen to it or if you have a platform with a lot of a big audience you know you're kind of setting a precedent you're setting an example so the more we use our voice even if you have a small audience like who if you've one person who's an audience like use your

voice say it loud and just show that support in in that way you know it it doesn't matter to show up just show up and we're here for you guys yeah that was that was my dogfish debrief list like it couldn't have been longer and I'm sure there is more so tell us all all of your thoughts and responses and we're here for you, Patreon, $5 a month. People have already started sharing their support for Clara or just, you know, empathizing. I love Clara so much. Thank you for, thank you for coming on, Clara. Like, we really love you. We really do. And you're so, like, she's so smart, obviously.

That was like, she's book smart, but more than that, you know, she was wise beyond her years. The fact she's 25 is crazy, right? Yeah. But share with us all of your thoughts. you can email us, investigate at the dating detectivespodcast.com. Yeah, and share us your stories. And then also social media at dating detectives podcast.

You know the drill. That's the housekeeping. Yeah, and thank you for always sharing our social media and stuff. Because the more you share, then the louder our voices can be, the more we can reach people and just continue to build this sense of community for our guests and for everybody else out there

who's experiencing these things. So thank you so much for your support. We love you guys. We love you. That was a lot. I hope you feel, I mean, we've got to take a walk after this conversation because it's always really hard. I know, right? I know. And you guys always trust your Femtuation. You've got it. It's in there. Just trust your Femtuation.