The Dating Detectives - The Best Friend & The Dogfish Part 2

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

The shocking conclusion to Claire's story. Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page! If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email [e-mail] or contact us through our website using this link This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/tdd today to get 10% off your first month. This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Storyworth. Save $10 on your first purchase when you go to StoryWorth.com/detectives This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Dipsea. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/ TDD If you're looking for a new podcast, check out The Why Files for everything from aliens to conspiracies, time travel, and everything in between! ***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7-233 for support. morning, happy Monday. It's time for part two.

I know you've been waiting. Thank you for your patience. We'll get into it quick. I know that you guys are so, I know you just want to get into it. So just for recap, we left off where this guy has brought up polygamy on just a casual lunch date, right? He's like, you know, the Bible actually has some interesting points. And it's like, I think you're getting a little creative with your interpretation there.

Yeah, exactly. And then she leaves and has to go get the kids to. school. So that's kind of where we left off. So we're going to, um, pick up from there. But first, listen to the Patreon this week. We're going to have our first guest episode on the Patreon. Yay. And it's great. We want to bring more and more stories like that on Patreon. So thank you to everybody who supports there. And it's $5 a month. So go listen. Yeah, come listen on the Patreon. Join the Patreon. You get two bonus episodes a month. And we're really, we're really, we're really enjoying the Patreon a lot and we do the lives and everything you guys can connect with us.

So last live we had awesome people come on and so we could help with some dating app makeovers. One of them was my mom. You guys, Hannah is so good at that stuff. Like it is so fun to. No, I just, I have so much fun watching you with all like the dating profiles and just the things that you catch and, you know, that are like, oh, we should totally change this. And it was so much fun. You guys have to come watch Hannah in action. It was really fun.

You know, as many people can relate to, I have been in the trenches and we pick up a thing or two. Right. So, so yeah, sign up for the Patreon. And as always, please keep sharing on your social media because this sense of community has been so important and so valuable to so many of our guests. So keep sharing. And I say, let's just get into it. Get into part two. Back to Claire.

Let's do it. Like, we have to go get the kids. And so we go and I literally just slap it. on a smile, tell myself to stop shaking, right? And go and get the babies. Then we go and pick up the kids. And I'm like trying not to cry, talking to all the friends and stuff. And they're all like, how is sushi? I'm like, great. Oh, my gosh. And so we pick up the kids and the boys were in the back of the car and they were like kind of having a tuffel and he just throws the car into park and slammed out the door, pulls our oldest daughter out of the car.

she's crying. Our littlest is crying and he dives into the back and he grabs my youngest by the neck. What? What? Yes. And was like, this is your brother. Don't fight with your brother. Like on his high horse of integrity for his lesson, but physically holding him. And all of us are like crying. And then he just leaves. He just leaves. And then I get the kids inside. I settled them down. And the next day, he just pretends like nothing happened. He's like, I didn't grunt by the neck. I grabbed him by his cheeks.

Like, really? The issue that was happening is like when he hits these, what I started noticing is like his eyes go dark and they start twitching. Oh, my God. And he goes into like kind of like these, you know, spirals. And then it's like a trans. Almost. And then he doesn't remember it after. Or he creates a different narrative.

narrative in his brain. I'm like, this, this is something I've learned to handle things in the past. This is a whole new ballgame. This is a path I don't, I don't know what to do about. So then she flies back in and I'm upset with him over everything and he goes, let's let's go on a date. Let's have Rebecca. We don't go on a date to a damn funeral home. You don't change your ways, fella. No, no kidding. I know. I feel so stupid. I completely feel so stupid. Oh, I don't. That's, yeah. That's how so many people feel. They feel stupid. And it's not fair. It's not fair. Stupid, trapped, like the whole, the whole gamut, you know. And so this is what's crazy is he goes, we need, we need a date. We just need us, you know. And so he goes, we trust her. So let's have her watch the kids while we go. Oh. Okay. So he books a hotel and we go and, you know,

things are a little different. If you know what I mean, like there were new maybe things that he wanted to do or try that in 14 years never gave about. Oh, okay, okay. I'm picking up what you're putting down. And I'm getting text messages from her, like showing she's baking with the kids

and they're playing Legos and they're doing, you know, all the things. I'm like, oh, this is so wonderful. You know, they're so loved because I don't ever leave them, you know. And so we go on this date and everything seems fine. He doesn't bring up the compound, you know. The divorce papers. Nope.

All of that's gone. That's in the past. He's thinking of counseling. He's just been stressed with work, you know, all of this. Are you feeling like getting glimmers of who you married? Teeny, teeny, tiny ones, but my body is telling me no. Mm-hmm. It felt very forced.

It felt very unnatural. But again, trying to salvage, trying to figure out how do I hold this together? How do I, you know? So we are on our date. She's sending us messages of like kids are doing great. You know, Auntie Rebecca's having so much fun. And so we're on our date, like out of town.

And then we come back because it's, brother's flying into town and we get there. We get home in time so that she can go out on her date. Okay. So she's watching our kids so that we can go away. And then she leaves when we get home to go on her date and gets home the next night. I could tell that she is intoxicated. And my brother-in-law and my husband, they're drinking. We're playing cards. And the couple days prior, she kept asking me questions about my brother-in-law. Is he happily married? Does he look like your husband? Yep.

Rue. I didn't think anything of it. I was just like, she's just curious. I don't know. Yeah, he's happily married. You know, they've got two kids. He tries to come out twice a year. And she just kept asking more details about what does he do, all this stuff.

So anyhow, she joins in the card game and is so explicitly inappropriate with my brother and mom. And my husband is getting visibly angry. Now, I'm thinking maybe he's ticked because she's being inappropriate with his brother who is married. But then we will find out why he was actually angry. I have some guesses. I have some guesses. Oh, my gosh.

So she's like that in the eyelashes and brushing his hair back and doing all that. Hand on the arm, hand on the leg. Oh, my God. Like turning every comment into some type of sexual innuendo. Oh, my God. And I mean, I'm not so inappropriate. But I have been married for 14 years. And I don't know.

I just. So inappropriate. And also a representation of you. Like she's your best friend that you have staying. And now this family member is like, what is this? Right. I was mortified. And he didn't do anything inappropriate.

But he also didn't stop it, which irritated me a little bit. And so they ended up staying up drinking a lot longer. I went and put the kids to bed. And then the next day, they took her back to the airport. She's flying back to Arizona. So anyhow, all of that happens with my brother-in-law. They take her to the airport. Then my brother-in-law leaves like the next day.

My husband's working back to working a lot. Things were definitely rocky. Then Christmas rolled around. And so she's gone at this point. She's back in Arizona. and he's like up and down, up and down, up and down. And I think it's also important to say that when you are in a traumatic situation, every day is a new day and your brain can kind of black out stuff that happens even 24 hours

because you're just in survival mode. And so I'm sitting here, yeah. And so I'm like all of this chaos happened in the last couple of weeks. And then here we are. She's gone. It's just us. It's up and down with him. and then we're leading into Christmas

and I'm so focused on just making it super special with the kids because we didn't have any family or anything around this year. And so you kind of like shove all of this CRAP under the rug until the next thing comes up. You're just kind of shoving it away. And so we get through Christmas. He's already kind of in agreeance to like get some counseling. That's a good start.

It was a good start. I felt like I was like, okay, like we can, I feel in my mind, I was like, if you can get counseling, if we can get counseling, and like things with the company are going well, then you won't be so stressed and maybe you won't have these reactions. Again, justifying behavior that we should not justify. He also during this period started becoming like a doomsday prepper. And so in that, he had this plan that he shared with me and other people that if we got nuked or the, you know, the grid went down or et cetera, et cetera,

then the house that we have is on a point. And he's like, we just lock this point down. I'll take that neighbor out, take that neighbor out. And everybody else will fall in line with my military training in this doomsday situation. And I'm sitting here like, that's not normal. It's like him being both paranoid and also wanting all this power. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Exactly. And I just again chocked it up to his military trading. And he's like, I will just always protect you and the children. And this is what I'll have to do. And some of it's going to be hard and whatnot. Well, I've learned since then that is not normal thinking. And I don't just live in a bubble. He's just in a different reality.

Because that's what he would say to me. Oh, you just don't know how the real world works. That's we, this is not the first time, by the way, that we've had someone come on and, uh, prepper used that to manipulate to manipulate. To manipulate and isolate. And isolate. Yes. In that factor.

So we have this house on the lake, but our community is about an hour away, like our friends and whatnot. And he was trying to get us to stop going into town for fear of like any of this stuff happening while I was there with the kids and he wasn't there to protect us. So this was like a constant. This wasn't just like, I've got stuff in the basement in case we need it. This was constantly being afraid that something was going to happen. Yes.

To the point of you not being able to go place. Yes, and I would say we need to move closer to town. Like let's keep the lakehouse. We can have it as a rental or whatever. He want to keep it as a go-to place. But we need to get closer to town because the kids need, like they have all their little besties are here and they want to do X, Y, and Z. And I'm not going to drive up and down all the time.

And so he would pretend to be on board with that and looking at new houses and whatever. And then conveniently something would happen in the world, whether it be Ukraine or Russia or whatever, whatever. And he would sit me down and make me watch these like prepper videos of how close we are to World War III and be like, do you really want to be closer to town where people can like raid your house or do you want to be up here where I can take care of you? And so he's playing on my mom. My mama bear mode. Yep. Absolutely. Okay. I will stay up here isolated AF, you know, and to protect my kids, because you tell me that this is what's going to. to happen. So then we get into now they he's studying the old testament and he thinks that he is

similar to King David. Oh, for the love of the land. And that all of his faults and flaws and things are fine because, you know, David was also like that. And bless it. Now he's the king. It sounds like this is not like the at all the man you married. It sounds like this is escalated. No, no. You didn't. Yeah. This guy is what he's on one. This guy is. on the mushrooms and the chocolate. Professional golfer, yeah, tech CEO. Not at all what I married. Not at all.

But, you know, people change and you love them through it. But when we moved to the Catskills, he changed so drastically. Yes, he had PTSD prior to that and some. But zombies were never a big part of the conversation. I know. He definitely didn't mention that when he proposed. Oh, my goodness.

It was like, let's get her locked and loaded. you know, completely isolated and financially dependent and, you know, let her be mama bear. And I'm just going to throw all these potentials out there to keep her exactly where I want to keep her and the kids by default because now they're older and they see it. And I didn't like that. Anyhow, then we have Christmas and he's throwing a fit about everything. We make Christmas dinner. He comes in, makes himself a snack, leaves the mess and like pieces out. And I'm like, oh, Christmas dinner's ready.

like for us to all have as a family. I'm not hungry and like goes into his room and plays video games. And so the kids are crying. I'm upset. Like it was just so blatantly disrespectful. And he couldn't care less. And so anyhow, the kids are crying. And then that night again, he goes, I can't see our kids cry anymore over this.

Like I think we're over. You can't see your kids cry from the things that you're doing. Yeah. So we are over. Is this like the time he gave you the divorce papers and then ripped them up? Or is this like a different? That's what I'm saying. Just wondering.

Just wondering. Yeah. How serious is this? Are we going on a date again tomorrow? Which part of the girls? Rebecca, watch the children. Which part of the roller coaster are we on here? Just so I can prepare myself, you know?

And again, focused is 100% on the kids. And so I'm like, whatever, you know. And then yes, literally the next day he was back to normal and everything was fine. But that night I found out it was like 2 o'clock in the morning. He messaged my parents saying that we were getting a divorce because he couldn't handle seeing our kids cry anymore. In the middle of the what? So he was drinking. And that line, that stupid line that he's going to make it.

It's so, like, thinly veiled. Like, I'm not telling you why they're crying. He wants to look like the victim. He's getting ahead of it. That's why he's doing it first. Classic Darvo. Classic. 100%.

So he deleted the messages, but my parents kept them. And you could tell, like, he deleted them. So I didn't see them. Yeah. But you could tell he, it made no set. Like, his articulation wasn't there. It was all over the map. So I'm assuming he was on.

something and he kept saying you just need to support her and the children he's saying this to my parents you need to support her and the children i am bad i am i am bad can i just can i just stop real quick i want to you said darvo and that's something that i'm familiar with but i wanted to share with the audience what darvo is so darvo is deny attack reverse victim and offender roles so you're taking the role and reversing it to kind of make yourself look like the victim as opposed to holding like all the accountability. So it's kind of like deflecting. And so that's what Darvo is. And that is a classic example of Darbo. And we are just hitting the tip of the iceberg. Oh my God. Oh my land. And so then he deletes it and pretends again, nothing happens. And she flies back for New Year's.

Wait, deletes what? It deletes the messages to my parents. Like unscends them or deletes them so you couldn't see them. Deletes them so that I can't see them. Yeah, but does you think your parents are going to talk to you? I know, right? Like, who the, I think you're right. He was on something. And who knows what, honestly.

So then we, let's see here, she flies in for New Year's. I'm supposed to pick her up. I go and get my hair done and he's at home with the children. And I'm driving. And he goes, he didn't want me to go and pick her up at the airport because the road is little windy and he didn't want me get into a car accident. Okay. So he's going to go pick her up. And so I'm driving to my hair appointment. And lo and behold, there's like this crazy driver that literally gets almost three of us in a massive car accident. And I'm panicking. And so I'm calling him and

I'm calling him and I'm calling him and he doesn't freaking answer. And I'm like, you're at home with the kids. Like, where, what are you doing? What can you possibly be doing? He calls me back and he's driving with the kids and I'm telling him, you know, what happens. And he's like, oh, your hair looks beautiful, this, that one. I was like, hey, I tried calling you a bunch of times. Oh, I was outside with the kids. And I was like, that doesn't sound right. Because one of the kids in the back says, no, you weren't. That's why they're right. The kids said, that doesn't track. That does not track. What? And so when we got home that night, or I got home and that they got home, and he was outside with the kids at that moment.

And so I checked his phone. And he had a call with Rebecca that lasted 45 minutes while she was in Arizona. What? And so I like looked at the history and I didn't see any call history. So I was like, okay, this is just a one-off situation. But then I realized, oh, that's weird because they have been talking business, right? So why are there no previous calls? Yeah.

And not only that, but the number in his phone. phone wasn't Rebecca, it was R. Ah. Like a little short. Yeah. Almost like he doesn't want people to know who he's talking to. Maybe. I don't,

or like a cute short form instead of the full name. I don't know. I don't know. Either way, it kind of voted me a little bit. And so I said, hey, like when I was trying to call you, you said you were outside with the kids,

but your phone says that you're on with Rebecca. He goes, I didn't talk to her today. Oh, he should have just said, what a dumb. He should have, he's a dumb. No kidding. No kidding. And he goes, I didn't talk.

He could have just been like, yeah, we talked. What's up? There's a butt dial. Oh, my God. Yeah, he could have said it was business. And then she, he goes to go pick her up that night with one of her children, the oldest. And they are out of communication for a solid four hours. Wait, what?

With the children? Four hours. And her son said that he fell asleep in the back of the car. Okay. So what happened between A and B? I don't know. And then they get in and I was like, hey, you know, when I said that he was coming to get you at the airport,

you kind of pretended like you didn't know, but you had a conversation with him earlier that morning. And she goes, no, I didn't. What? Okay. Here we go. Do they not know how like receipts work? No kidding.

No kidding. But maybe they're like if we just deny repeatedly, eventually show it back off. So many people do that. You're like, I saw you. And they're like, no, uh, it wasn't me. And then people believe them because it works sometimes. Psychologically speaking, if they repeated enough times, they will believe it themselves. And therefore, if you don't believe it, then you're the crazy one.

Yep. And case and point over and over and over again, so many times in this situation. So again, over these past couple weeks, she's saying he's crazy, he's psychotic. I don't know how you're attracted to him. He's a narcissist. he needs to get help, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she would be like, I don't know why you think your friend is so pretty. Like, she's just not.

She looks, he said some really horrible things about her. But then they would stay up drinking at night. And I mean, she had. He's trying way too hard. They were both just talking so much smack on each other. And I'm in the middle. And he's, you know, doing his crazy stuff. And she's trying to get me to leave him.

And it was full-blown psychological warfare. And then so we get through New Year's and he leaves for work that following day. And he's out there for, I think, like, eight days. And that whole time, he was a contact, like there was no contact. He cut off the bank accounts. And then I get a message saying that he is officially done. Wait. Oh, my God.

Well, he's out of town for work. He wants to be officially done again? Again, yes. This is like a weekly. But the bank account thing would freak me out. that seems like the most legit thing he's done so far. I would have taken all the money out and been like, you can do whatever you want with the bank.

No kidding. And so she's still there with her son with me. I'm, you know, a wreck. Like what in the world is happening? And I finally reach out to like our other group of friends and I'm like, I'm at rock bottom. I don't know what to do. I don't know what he's doing.

He's threatening like all this stuff. Like if I don't do X, Y, and Z, he will file bankruptcy and destroy us. Like he went off. deep end off the deep end. And so then all the men from our church are trying to talk to him and reach out to him. And he is completely isolated. Completely isolated. And I'm again, simply like, asked his wife, like, I think he's just stressed about money.

I think he's just stressed about the company. I don't know why he's acting like this. He says there's nobody else, right? And a friend of mine who is a doctor, she goes, Claire, if somebody came to my office and presented everything that you just shared with me. and I know you're only sharing the tip of the iceberg. I would declare this as like severe emotional and mental abuse with narcissistic tendencies. And maybe some other, she's like, I can't say specifically because I'm not seeing him, but you've got manic episodes.

You've got some like sociopathic issues. Obviously he has PTSD. Hashtag all of the above. All of the above. There could be some bipolar. She goes, this is a very severe thing. And I'm sitting here like, he's going to kill me because I just shared our private stuff with people that I trusted because I don't know what else to do. Oh, well, I mean, gossip is okay.

It's legal. Isn't, but that's so interesting that like you hear that. And rather than thinking about processing it, you're just still in this state of fear. You can't even process entirely what your friend has just shared with you. Yeah. which in some world would be enough to be like, oh, but he's like made it so hard for you. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. And then Rebecca is like, I'm here with you. We are, you're not, I'm never going to leave you. You've got this. Like he can go basically pound sand. We are in this together. We have the kids. I'm trying to like keep it all together, you know, and she's like, let's go see a movie.

Let's go to dinner. So we all do that. I'm trying not to fall my eyes out. And then she has to go take her son back to the airport. She's flying him out of the airport where my husband is staying in the same city. And she was supposed to come back the next day. And I went and stayed with my friends with the kids just to kind of give them some sense of normalcy and like just get out of the house and take a breather.

And she doesn't come back for three days. So they're both out in this city, probably an hour and a half away. He's supposed to be working. And she said she got a different hotel so that she could focus on her work and let me just kind of like have my time. And this wasn't a plan. She just was like,

by the way, I'm staying for three months. Correct. Yes. Weird. What? And so I stay with my friends. The kids are having fun with their friends.

And I'm just processing all this with, you know, these trusted group of females. So all this is happening the first week of January. He's out in this other city for work. She's out there too. He calls me and says, hey, I'm driving back right now.

I'm really sorry. I will never destroy our family. I will never let it get torn apart. You are, you know, the love of my life. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? I'm still not at. I'm still at my friend's house because I'm absolutely terrified to go back.

I don't know who this person is. And he's trying to get me to come home. He's like, come home. I'm like, I'm not. I am absolutely terrified. I don't know what I'm dealing with. I don't know who you are on any given day. The kids are upset.

like they're happy here right now. And it was, I love you. I will always protect you. I don't know what's been going on. Again, we're going to get counseling. Our family won't be torn apart. Wait, so we do want divorce or we don't want to. At this point, he does it.

Now he's back to getting me and the kids to come back home. And I'm like, no, we're not coming back. I don't know what's going on. Like, it's been a complete rollercoaster. I'm not eating. I'm not sleeping. Like, I got to figure out, like, I need some space. I need some time, you know.

And anyway, he keeps going. He threatened to call CPS if I didn't bring the kids back. And so I ended up going back, which was stupid. And then everyone's checking in and they're like, we just need to make sure that you're safe. And I'm like, oddly enough, it's really calm. He's fine. Like, everything's okay right now. But then that night, I woke up and he was dressed in his full, like, military garb,

paroling the yard what with his guns and his silencer parrolling for patrolling sorry patrolling well both I mean yes oh that's patrolling patrolling the

so like we've got the psychedelics which I think has a big part in it but I think really just maybe opened up Pandora's box yeah and maybe he's been able to keep this mask and like all these things closed and tight and now we're in this situation where things are just like seeping out and he can't control it. So I refuse to come back to bed, like all this stuff. And again, I'm just trying

to keep it calm for the kids. And then Rebecca flies back from Arizona. She comes back and she's everything okay, you know, constantly checking on me. My other friend found us a rental in town, which never is never available. And I was highly considering it because I was like, I can't keep doing this. Like even if we do counseling, even if he gets better, like, I can't keep this isolation going. I need my family. Like I need my friends because at this point, I'm recognizing like he can just keep this roller coaster going and I don't have any way out. We're looking at this rental and she wants to get her own place eventually, but she was like, I'll move into it with you. It was four bedroom, two bath. And so I talked about it with him and I was like,

hey, listen, like you're working a lot. You're under a lot of stress. The kids want to do this. You can let's rent the house out. You can stay at the. the lakehouse if you want to or you can stay with us whatever you want to do but i need to after everything that just happened in the last couple weeks i need to find equilibrium and the only way i'm going to do that is if i am in community and i have safe places for the kids smart that's really smart and so we're moving forward with with getting this rental which again just there's none available and it happened to be a friend of a friend the previous tenant fell through or something and And so I was like, I feel like this is meant to be in this situation.

And so we weren't going to get it until February, I want to say. So we're kind of preparing and stuff. And then we have a freeze. And so we have no water at the lakehouse. And so Rebecca's there. My husband's there. My kids are there. We have all these snowstorms.

And I'm dealing with the kids trying to, you know, keep them fed and keep the, you know, all the school stuff and all of this. And she's like, I'm going to go help. help your husband. I'm going to go help your husband. Okay. Wrap the lines and like try to get the water. And so for like four days straight, we had no water.

And she was out actively like helping him try and get these lines heated and all of this. And she's like, I'm using this as a time to like talk to him and find and be that bridge. She goes, I wish I had a bridge between my ex and me when things were rocky. And so I'm like, okay. Like you seem to be on my, you seem to see all of it. So maybe you can be a bridge. And so all that happens. And then we get into the following week, we have the water back.

I'm over at our neighbors who we see every week. And she is aware of the situation. And I tell her about, you know, we're going to get this rental house, but I'll come back and visit her all the time. But that Rebecca decided yesterday that she doesn't want to stay. the rental house. She still wants to stay in the tower of our lake house while I'm in town with the kids because this is her healing place. And she goes, Claire, get that woman out of your house. She's older. She's like in her 70s. Because they know. Bertha. When they listen, they know. She goes, get her out of your house. She is not, if you are going to town,

she is not staying there. She needs a place of her own. This is not her healing place. I don't care what they're telling you get her out and i'm sitting here like oh like this is kind of like a second mom you know in a way and she's kind of seen all this but i haven't told her everything maybe like not hardly at all you haven't told her hardly anything and she's telling her you to get her out what were your feelings like what it what did you think about that what it like that was an eye that was an eye opener for me because the previous week her family had also been in town we're all friends and stuff and her sister-in-law was there and we had gone over for breakfast and rebecca was with me and i guess after we left her sister-in-law was like what is she doing there this is not good this is not

good at all i have a bad feeling this is not okay and then so when i came to her and was like hey she wants to stay while i go to town is when she finally i guess had the i need to say something the ability to say absolutely not because that's not really her style she's very kind of like you know, kind of lets people do their own thing and just loves them through it. And she was like, nope, absolutely not. And so that kind of threw me for a little bit. The next night, she left again for another date. And I remember talking my husband.

I'm like, he's like, yeah, she just wants to stay here. And I'm fine with it. But now we're coming into, let's see here, the third week of January. And she comes back from this date. And him and I had been talking. this was like another night where he was out patrolling and then came back in and I put the kids to bed and I was coming back down to finish our discussion and I heard the door shut and I walk out and I heard her car door and so I walk out I mean my robe and they're like leaning into each other on the on the deck talking and I was like what the F is going leaning into each other though like like leaning into each other though like like and I'm like, oh, hey. Oh, I just got back.

We were just talking about our day. How are you? Right? And I was like, what is happening right now? And she goes, what are you talking about? And I go, so to my husband, I said, this is absolutely insane. Like, we just discussed that you have no boundaries. Like, you are being completely disrespectful to me.

And so she packs up her things and leaves after that blowout. and they deny everything. He gets angry with me. They deny everything. Deny, deny. Never happened. Angry with me and says, if she goes back to the ranter,

if she goes back to him and he kills her, it's your fault. He's mad. He's so mad. He is angry that she left. And I could see like them, like their eye contact when we were having this. Like,

is somebody going to say something? Yeah. But nobody did. It was just me being like, hello. I don't know what's going on with you, Rebecca. This isn't okay. I don't want it to affect our friendship.

Buddy, like, this is not, this is on you. Like, you are the man of the house. This is not, I'm uncomfortable. The kids are uncomfortable. But then she packs up, she leaves. And he's ticked. He's, you know, saying it's all my fault, whatever, whatever. But for some reason, even after all of this, I still trusted her.

I just never thought that she would do something like that to me. So I just decided to still. trust her. And then the next day, she's like, I will move in with you. Let's figure out a date and all of this. And then I'll get my own place when I can get my financials in order. This is for the new rental house. And he's sitting there and he's like, no, you guys have to stay. If you leave, it's over. Like, again, we're back to that. And I'm like, okay, you know. And so he's berating me because he's angry that she left. And then the next day is Sunday. And we sat there and he was like being kind. And so I'm reading like this marriage book and he starts he's like let's read it together again

total opposite of the day before and then he became all like lovey-dovey and he's like I have to go to a business meeting and so he leaves and then he comes back and the kids and I were together all day and we're just you know having some quiet time and he goes we need to talk you don't say here we go again you know and i'm just like i don't i'm sitting there and i'm on my phone he's like no you need to put your phone down i was like i got to get back you know i'm just like i can't even take you seriously anymore i can't take you seriously anymore so he comes in and he says we need to talk and i'm not taking him seriously so i'm like on the phone and he goes i need to tell you the truth and like all of a sudden like everything starts to shake again

And so he starts in on this. When you sign the divorce papers, I could not get that out of my mind. I'm like, you didn't freaking sign them. And they were fake. And you tore them up the next. And you're an idiot. And you're an idiot. And he goes, well, in my mind, we were done at that point.

Like, we were divorced. And so, and I go, wait, way, way. He starts to go in to say something about Rebecca. And I go, wait, wait, wait, like, I need you to repeat that. And so as I click off my phone to, like, show them like I'm off and paying attention, I hit record. Yes, girl. I put it under the covers. And I basically made him repeat everything that he had set up until that point.

And he goes into the spiel of you signed these papers. I was like, but you didn't. They're not legally binding. You know, whatever, whatever. You rip them up the next day. We went on a date. Like, we are now back to counseling, like all this stuff. And he's like, well, I thought that we were in my mind.

That was the case. But then I realized that we weren't. And so I did a deep dive study on the Old Testament. And I felt like God was telling me that it would be okay for me to have multiple wives. And so Rebecca and I knew she had feelings for me. And I was like, you were both blatantly telling me that you really didn't even like each other. But that should have been. And that you thought each other was.

ugly. Yes. Like I wouldn't touch her with a 10 foot pole like all this stuff like she's as ugly as the horses she rides. Oh my God. Right. Okay. Sure. So I would never say about another person was coming out of their mouths and I was just like, this is crazy. Anyway, so he goes on to the spiel about deep dive into the Old Testament. God is going to bless him because he's following his will. but that's why he was asking me about building a compound where he would have a bunker and he could raise all nine kids because when he realized that she had feelings for him and he had feelings for her they went out onto our property and said marriage vows to each other so that they could sleep together and not be in sin and not be in sin yes my god this guy in November this fella he crazy has a bad bug he's the type of person that like wrote his own

Bible that just basically said his name, you can do whatever you want. And every, I'm going to just interpret everything so that I'm always perfect. Yeah. And everyone else gets smited. Like you're like you're perfect though. Like a cult leader. Yep. Yep.

How did this feel though to get this confirmation? I mean, what else like so? Was it confirmation or was it was it? Yeah, you knew. Come on. Did you already know? I think it was. It was confirmation, but shock.

Again, it was a surreal experience. because he was actually like telling me the truth, which I felt like I hadn't heard in a really long time. And knowing that it was being recorded and couldn't be flipped around on me again in an hour. I was feeling like that. Because he would have been like, no, I didn't say that. Exactly. Exactly. He would have been like that did not happen. And so having that validation and having that backup really allowed me to deep dive into the questions of like when, where, how, you know, and he kept saying none of this was out of hate. This was all out of love. This is why we could all be together, you know, on our compound and I can raise all nine children as

dad. As daddy, as God. This fella, he is beyond. He is beyond, beyond. Beyond. And, So then things escalate because I'm like, you need to leave. I got the information I have here. You need to leave. And he's like, I'm not leaving. I was like, you are leaving. If you don't leave, like, I'm calling the police. And he's like, I'm not leaving.

I don't have anywhere to go. I don't have any money. I'm like, this is complete BS. This was his plan. And so he goes, I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. And I'm like, well, then I'm going to call the sheriff, you know. And so things escalated.

And he blocked me in the room, helped me back. And then he cornered me in the kitchen. He has a gun on him. And I don't know what's going on at that point. And he cornered me in the kitchen. And so I pulled out the kitchen knife. And I just held it. I didn't move forward.

I didn't point it at him. I didn't do anything. No, but listen. You're preparing. That's do it. Because so eerily like calm when he told me all of this and then got aggressive. like he's essentially like it could escalate at any moment and I've seen it before it's like I've seen it before yep and so I'm cornered in the kitchen and then he backs up and I call 911 and he's

shouting you're crazy you're insane you're a liar this and that whatever okay right and then they're like stay on the phone with us you know stay on the phone it was a hard situation because like I didn't want him arrested in front of the kids, which in our state, he could have been based on everything that happened. But because of all his other situations that have happened in the community, he's actually friends with people at the sheriff's department in that particular county. And the sheriff gets there and, you know, he talks to him first. Talk to him first.

Oh, no. And I ended up getting a FOIA, which I think everybody also needs to know that they can do in these situations for the body cam footage so that I could see exactly what happened with that first interaction. Because when the deputy came into the house, he was, he was kind of defensive. I'm still on the phone with 911 who heard everything. And, you know, the kids are crying and screaming. And he's like, he said that this happened. and you said that this happened and et cetera, et cetera. It's basically he said she said.

I was like, at this point in time, I just want him to leave. And he goes, ma'am, I can't make him do that unless you want me to arrest him. Well, no, I don't want you to arrest him in front of my kids right now. So I was like, you know what? I'm just going to pack them up and we're going to leave. And our neighbors ended up driving. Not legally, though, but they can say, hey, for just for this particular situation. He refused.

He refused. And so then I find out through the body cam footage that when the kids and I were packing up. This deputy is outside, basically talking shop with my husband. Like a friend. Like a friend. Gave him his personal cell phone number to come back in civilian clothes to buy something off of him. Are you serious? Uh-huh. That is horrible. They're over here Facebook market placing during a 1018 domestic. Oh my God. So then the kids and I leave. And he's texting and calling and we're not answering. And then we go to a friend's house, which is fully secured. And then we get the sheriffs involved from the other county, which is just a better county. Like they handle things a lot differently. And they were

like, you have no choice but just to file a protective order. Like you do not have a choice. I was like, I need another choice because if I do that, like I am literally dead. Like I am a walking target if I do that. And they're like, no, you don't, you don't have a choice. And so they got involved. The counselors got involved. And another attorney got involved. And they're like, you have to file this based on all the unpredictability,

based on all the stuff that has happened, based on the weapons, the drugs, like all of this. And as we're going through this, he's calling every friend of ours to find us. And they're in turn calling the sheriff and being like, what do we do? And everyone's like, nobody answer. Nobody, he's like, I'm driving around. I'm coming to find them. He kept saying he had money to give us, but he didn't have money the day before.

Freaking crazy pants. I know. And so the attorney was like, you have to file this protective order. But I do also need to make sure that you have your life insurance and your guardianship in place. Oh. Because if anything happens. And that's when it like hit me. that like everything up until that point was so crazy but not crazy and not like you know what I mean

like it was so psychotic and wild and manipulative and planned and coordinated like the amount of coordination that they had to do in order to pull off an affair for three months in my home with my kids there and then all of the other stuff that you know his aggression his violence his verbal like all of that stuff that was going on with him as a separate it was like this just this perfect storm like the protective order was eight pages long oh my god was it it was for the kids too or just you of course yeah no for the kids it was for the kids based on everything else that it happened so then dhs gets involved and anyway we end up going staying at a time share for like three weeks a gated time share you know where the kids could swim and play and everything they

don't want to see him again. And my parents driving to town and they coordinate a time to go and like move our stuff out. And my dad and literally 12 guys from our church show up with their trucks and their trailers. And he's like, I have the house already all packed, you know, playing games with my dad being like, everything's fine. Everything's packed and ready to go. And so again, you're just, you know, it's an out of body experience.

you don't feel like any of this is, you know, real life. And then we get to the house. We walk in. It was completely ransacked. He took all the guns, all the gold, all the silver, any of the computers, any of the technology, took it out, locked it in a shed, and trashed the rest of the house. What a dick. Oh, my God. If that doesn't say everything for everyone.

Literally, all the guys, I hit my knees. Like, I was crying. I'm like, I don't know what to do. like how do I pack this up quickly? You know, you guys have families to go home to. Like, this isn't your job. Like, that's not what you expected. And they were like, we've got this.

They would grab trash bags and boxes and just started, like, by the time we got to the rental and started unpacking, it was like, I had like a toilet brush scrubber in the same bag as like a throw pillow. Oh, God. It was one of those things because we only had a certain amount of time with the sheriffs to be there. Yes. Everybody all hands on deck, throwing it all in, throwing it all in, throwing it in.

I mean, it took us months to go through all this stuff because there was no rhyme or reason to anything being anywhere. That must have really been nice for you, though. It was incredible. And for my dad to witness that was something so spectacular. And so anyhow, then we all pull everything out. They, you know, this kind of entourage of trucks and trailers and they all bring it to the rental. And I just remember pulling him behind them and just bawling and like just kind of taking a photo of like all these men who are trying to. talked to him and trying to be his friend and trying to pull him back.

And he just isolated from all of them. And he was laser focused. He was laser focused on this wild, like, I don't know, again, polygamous communal, which is why earlier when I was saying, he was riding this line of like divorce and being on his own, but not wanting that stigma maybe. So that's why he needed to go like this polygamous route. So then he needed to justify. biblically with the Old Testament and like King David and this rabbit hole this yes and then the

prepper stuff like oh I can't have a polycos misbarriage in town so let's go two hours away and you're with your friend and the kids are to go and save all the Christians solid Christian man but also have his this woman who he was lusting after yes yes all of that and if he didn't get that he would hurt anyone in order to get there. And that's just... And then it was even wilder as we got to the house and we're starting to unpack and I'm trying to make it like a big thing for the kids. And they are unpacking their boxes.

He went and they all have these piggy banks that had gold and silver and all their cash, probably at least a couple grand between all of them. And he went through and unscrewed the plexiglass. There's probably about 15 screws on each one. Took everything out except their copper in like their little coins and then screwed the plexiglass back on and put them at the bottom of their boxes for them to find it open up when we got to the house. He stole from his children? Yep. What a sociopath.

Legit. And so within those couple days of us leading and all of that, it was this oscillation on messages of I'm going to destroy you. You will be penniless. I'm going to win. I'm going to get the kids. You'll never see them again. You are crazy. He canceled our car insurance, our health insurance, my life insurance, the bank account,

stop paying on the house mortgage, stop paying on the business equipment that was in my name, like destroyed my credit in literally less than six weeks. He just went on a rampage, complete rampage. It's like if you don't do exactly what I want you to do, I will destroy you. And that is everything that he's done. He literally took a video. of himself stating that he went to a doctor of mine that stated that I had Munchhausen syndrome, which I didn't even know was a thing.

Right. Sure. And that he thinks I'm an unfit mother. And he was going to send that to the court. And I found it. Don't ask me how I found it. And I took it and I went to the doctor that he said he met with. And I go, what's this all about?

We either have a huge HIPAA violation or you diagnosed me with something that I've never been told. Thank you. And she goes, Claire, I've never met your husband. I've never seen your husband. I've never talked to your husband. And I certainly never diagnosed you with any of this. He's so full of shit, his eyes are brown.

I go, can you write that down for me? She goes, yeah, of course. She goes, I'll do one thing further. I'm going to print out of everything that you are allergic to and anything I've ever prescribed you, which is nothing. So he can't say that you are self-medicating on anything. Does he know how things work? If you cite a doctor like that.

In court, they will talk to the doctor. Like, they will get the records. No kidding. You're going to get the records. You're going to get the body cam footage. You're going to get the 911 calls. You're going to have, like, if, like, it's so bizarre to me that he just feels like he is not in the same realm as everybody else. And that the truth will not come out.

Can I ask how financially you were getting through all of this after he cut you off from the accounts? honestly my family and this is what is really frustrating and our church family i mean our church family is paying for our counseling and then we have other uh members that have literally just i've never seen a community come together like this and i have family that has been helping just get us through this until we can get to the final divorce process which is a long time the system is slow and it is very frustrating because there's almost like that survivor's guilt because I have a community and not everybody does. Oh, I just got the chills. Woo!

Girl. Like if I didn't, my kids and I would either be on the streets or we would have to go back. There is nothing. It's not, the system is not set up to help. It's really not. And. Which is why a lot of people stay or go back. And that's why a lot of people stay.

and if things hadn't happened the way that they did, I probably would still be in that situation. And so everything since then, it's like the protective order. He's had multiple violations and the kids were going to testify and everything against him just a couple weeks ago. And he came in. His attorney was like, he has no capacity for custody. If you will drop the protective order,

we will keep the no contact and you get full custody. I said, as long as they don't have to get up on that stand because I don't want you to harass them. And so that's what I ended up doing. Wait, a couple weeks ago? Yeah, the judge was like, sir, you do understand that I will implement this immediately, if anything else goes right? There's a lot.

I still, like, is there more to the story? Because I have more questions. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I guess so. She, she left him and went back to the rancher. Of course she did. Of course she did. So then he just is like there by himself.

But then we found out that he's talking to like five or six other women. Throughout this whole time. Of course. He's a narcissist. Well, maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I just know, like, after we left and currently, yeah.

Did you have a conversation with Rebecca? Where to ho at? She texts me the day after apologizing profusely and said that he forced her. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I thought you were joking. Okay. Sorry.

Oh, my God. He forced her in. to the ideas and the affair, the relationship, whatever. I mean, I guess it's a relationship because they're married under the eyes of God. So when all of this happened, I did get in touch with her sister who said that we are not the first family. She's done this too. Oh, my God.

Yeah. And she is a known pathological liar and a sex addict. A sex addict? Yes, that I just let walk into my home and watch my children. Oh, hold on. not let it's it's let if it's let if you are fully aware of like right like she manipulated her way into your home we know yes and i'm i'm wondering if they had like an emotional thing longer than that truthfully because they were like over the summer like when we're all hanging out like if this

started before she moved in and maybe because then she denied all the abuse that happened with the rancher and i was like when why the heck did we rescue you know what she one she probably so if i wonder if that wasn't true, she was just using that to get to your husband so that your husband would be like, oh, come save you, I will be your hero. Maybe. She does have that complex, yes. And then you, what about the, like, other baby daddies and her children? Is all that true?

It is all life. Wait, what you mean? What's, what? It's like, they both have incredible homes, families. So these are good stand-up citizens. These are good stand-up citizens. And literally everything she ever said about any of them was a lot. life. How do you know? Did you talk to me? Yes. Yeah. 100%. And now we don't trust anything she's ever said. And now we don't trust anything that she says. No. Oh my goodness. So you talk to her

ex-husband. Yes. Yeah. And then his family. And so they were able to give me the background on everything that had happened up until that point. And yeah, it was again, so many layers and so many lies and so much manipulation. I have one more question if we want to talk about it, but no pressure. I hate that he used your Christianity against you. And I mean, I was, I hate that he did that with the kids. Oh my God. Yeah, I think I was raised in like a pretty, yeah, my community growing up was very like Jewish and McKenzie I know has a Christian community. And it's like the idea, like I can so empathize and relate. with someone using that.

It would be so betraying and so confusing to take something that is such a value. 100%. And again, back to that community, if we didn't have this, I don't know how I would navigate it with the kids because everything that was said and done was so wrong. And I can kind of swim in those waters as an adult,

but as a child, I'm like, I don't have the tools to help you filter through this. And so we have this community that these people that have been able to really get on their level and explain that what was done was wrong. This is not how God is. This is not okay. This is not what the Bible says. Like always reference and know what your truth is and stand on that rock and not let anybody else sway you so that they have power over you.

That is not okay. And I don't care what age you are. Amen. Amen. Absolutely. I'm glad that you have that because I could see kids being like, my dad did this and now I want nothing to do with the church or whatever that community is. And I don't, I think you're providing.

Thankfully, again, in our situation, I think it has switched them around and they are more on fire for right versus wrong. And so I'm thankful for that, but it doesn't always turn out that way. And so again, having the knowledge and the tools and the resources to be able to figure out how to navigate that with kids, that abuse of power, a religious power, you know, using the Bible or whatever. It is. It absolutely is. And there's something very, very wrong with that. Well, they're lucky they had a mama working overtime. Like you wouldn't believe. I mean, you're amazing.

Mama bear wasn't messing around. She said, mm-mm. You guys are hilarious. And my question is, like, looking back, do you feel like you knew whenever you would see them together? Like, did you ever feel like, I knew, but then you were like, well, you know, what they're saying seems okay. There were red flags. There were definitely. Otherwise, I wouldn't have questioned. wouldn't have even approached the subject with either of them to give them the platform to say what they said about each other. You know what I mean? And so they were just both so good at it. And again, like you said, my intuition was saying one thing. My brain was saying another. And it was full blown psychological warfare. And having that validation knowing that my gut was

correct is really important. But that feels good too, right? Like knowing that. you were right the whole time. Like, it's almost like, I hate that I was right, but it feels good. Yes, we've talked about that before. It's a weird relief. You didn't trust yourself,

but then it's like looking back, you hate that it happened, but also it's like, damn, I'm really good. Like, I didn't show the truth. And that feels kind of good. I'm not crazy. Your intuition can never be broken.

Yep. And it really shows the true colors of the person on the other side of that who is blatantly trying to break every inch of you down on the crazy spectrum, the mental illness spectrum, the jealous, insecure spectrum. Like, what's the actual heck?

That is not who any of us are. And that's not who we're designed to be. You are actively trying to do this so that you have power. And we need to tap into our own and never let it go. Yes. Whenever you knew that they were together, going into town together and all that, did you feel jealous? Like, were you ever jealous or were you just like taking it?

No. Oh, no, it's fine. She's your best friend. There was no jealousy. It was just sheer confusion. I was more angry at him for not having boundaries. Yeah. Because I never thought she would do that.

And I never thought he would do that. Regardless of the chaos of what was going on like with the fights and the PTSD and the marriage and all that, which happened very, very quickly, all of that combined. It was just very hard to filter through. Like, I feel like a dang archaeologist now. just like sifting layers that's such a good analogy yeah you're like

finding stuff let me keep on digging what layer are we going to find today versus you know in this message or this comment or whatever and that's the thing is you will absolutely replay it over and over and over again

be like well how did I miss that or the things that I didn't miss but I didn't trust myself on then you hear like oh that conversation didn't actually mean that that meant something entirely different and that plays into what happened over here yep and so there's that clarity of putting that it's like a million piece puzzle you know and all the pieces are scattered and then once one drops you just start putting them all together and you're like oh my goodness this is a lot bigger like I said for them to be able to pull off a full blown affair a full blown fake

second marriage. I don't even want to call an affair. Like in their mind, they were married. They were married while both living separate lives with me and my children at home on my property. In order for them to do that, like we're dealing with two very unstable, psychologically messed up human beings. I was going to say, I hope she gets help too because I absolutely hope she does. I do. I really do for her, for her kids, you know. Yeah. I mean, I know. They're in good hands. They're in really good hands right now. But yeah, like that's that the whole other ball game. And as a mother, I cannot comprehend it. I think what angered me the most is that it was so incredibly selfish. Like if they had feelings for each other, have a sit-down

conversation and let's figure this out. But the destruction that they went through completely destroyed the friendship of our children. Yes. Oh, yes. Not only did you blow up our family and now my children don't want to see their father ever again. But now your children and my children, like, are we related now? Like if they're married, like, you know. Oh, they're so confused. They're so confused for her to not think of the overall outcome. Like, obviously our friendship meant nothing, whatever. I don't care about that. But your children's friendship, like, the kids were literally like BFFs, whenever they're together, they have. have so much fun. They had plans for next summer. You didn't think about that when you like,

sorry, I was going to have some choice words and I decided not to. She's so nice. We can read between the lines. You can read between the lines all you want. What angers me the most is it did not need to get this bad. But then again, maybe it did. I also have to look at that side too. Maybe it had to happen exactly the way that it did or I would still be on that roller coaster weekend. That's a good point too. And the detrimental effects of that on my children long term would trump this pain tenfold. You know what? Maybe it had to happen this way. That's a good point too.

Because if you, if someone else tells you, but you haven't seen it for yourself yet, then it's hard to believe. Yeah, it's hard to believe. And then you just never know. So I totally agree with that too. Yeah. I feel like this, at least this particular situation, knowing who he is and how he works and how his mind works and how his communication works in the manipulation. I literally, again, you guys

witnessed that roller coaster of that up, ebb and flow, that up and down in just a short period of time. Like, this is 14 years. If it didn't blow up this way, would I still be there? That's what I asked myself. I don't know. Wow. I'm glad you're not. That's so thought-provoking, right? It's like, well, you never, but you know that like you are exactly where you're supposed to be, right, when you're supposed to be there at all times. That's all there is to it. So it's, you know, it's six in one half dozen the other. Like you're still where you're supposed to be.

Right. We have to believe that. Yep. And the kids are doing great. They are thriving. They are so happy. They're not walking on eggshells. Oh, good.

It is very easy. I mean, they have anger issues that they have to work through. But again, great community that's helping them through that. They're safe now. And I have custody and we will figure it out. I mean, that's the other thing. When you deal with people like this, if you don't do what they want, they will destroy everything. And my case is no different. So I mean, we're starting from scratch

and we'll be fine because we have each other and they are safe. And from here, we can only go up without his control and all the other stuff. So anyway. Your comment about your community being the thing that got you through that moment and being grateful that you have one, but also aware that many people do not. Thank you for telling your story for the person that needs to hear it and maybe doesn't have a community like you because you've just kind of created that for them in a parisocial kind of way and it's important.

And I just wanted to call that out because it's very brave of you to share. Every time any of these guests, like, share their story, you create a community. If there wasn't already one, you create it. and I think that's so cool. And I know that it got a little bit emotional sometimes. Like for us too,

like me and Hannah, we're kind of getting really emotional too. We felt it. And I just want you to know that you're not alone. And you're so brave for even sharing your story, but just everything that you've gone through, that's so painful. And I think so many people are,

have gone through it or are going through it. And so thank you. Thank you so much. I commend you. It's unfortunate. I really just wish, nobody was going through it. You know, I wish that there wasn't a single listener that can relate.

But unfortunately, they can. And you got double dogfished because of Rebecca as well. It's just so painful, but you are so, you're a very bright light. The double dogfish. Like the double betrayal is a different level of healing. I feel like it really is. It's junky. It's disgusting.

No, I'm so, I was, yeah, there's like not really any words. Like, I know it's a podcast, but we're like, Is there anything else we didn't ask you or any like takeaways that you want to make sure you share? I feel like the biggest thing is if you are in a situation to start, my first thing would be make sure that you stack your resources because I didn't have time to do that. And he cut off everything, literally everything. And I feel like that's a very telltale sign. So try not to allow yourself to be in that. I will never let my girls be in this situation, ever, ever.

Even if they are not saving for themselves, I will save for them because it's not okay to feel trapped and it's not okay to feel like you have to go back because you don't have another option. And the system, unfortunately, is not prepared or designed to support or hold you up for very long, if at all. if you find yourself in a situation similar to the mind please find a community as soon as you like I was lucky to have one but if you even resemble anything like this like find some friends find

some community that you can confide in because without it I don't know how we would have gotten out and so I don't want that for anybody else and then obviously if you have kids involved that's another layer and just to be as truthful and honest with them age appropriate obviously and get them the help and support that they need because you don't want stuff like this to turn generational. And I think it's our job to like stop it here, you know, whether it be physical, mental, emotional, financial. That's a big one. That's also abuse. You know, everyone thinks if you don't have a black eye, it's not a big deal, but that is not the case. Psychological is a really big deal. it is and your kids witness it and they see it and you got to find a way to process it with them

i think that's the biggest gift that you can give to them and then also really teach them to trust their gut and their intuition from a young age so that they don't find themselves in the same position because yes i think our generation like how to trust their gut find their intuition their fom tuition and let tell them to trust it yes teach and support them in that and the way that we support them in that is leading by example however we can Do you want to be a regular on the show? Yeah, you are the best. I also love how much you respected and continue to respect your children at any age

and never writing them off just because of their lack of experience or anything. Like, that's huge. I think it's super important. And you guys have a great platform to be able to reach the people that need it. And I think that's part of all of you guys too. Thank you so much. We cannot believe like the amount of people we've been able to help with the podcast, just because it gives people a voice.

Like it gives people an outlet and it helps them to add a little bit of closure. But just you create the community. So every guest who has come on has created this community. And it's really great to provide that to so many other people who need it. Yeah, I agree. I agree. 100%. And like I hope we run out of stories.

For the person that's able to like share, but it's also you've got people that can relate and then they can find the tools. Absolutely. And then if they ever see themselves in that position. And some women, a lot of, a lot of people tell us their daughters listen to it with them. And they tell their daughters, this is a situation where in the future, when you start dating, this is something to look at and, you know, keep an eye on. And I think that's really cool too because these are like you're teaching your daughters,

you're preemptive. We see how it's more prep. We see how often it happens. And we can, you know, do something about it now. Yes. The beauty of social media platform. to be able to reach a larger audience for good because it can be used for evil

but to be able to use it for good I think is so amazing and incredible and yeah you guys are awesome thank you so much Claire we're so glad you came on and I can't wait to hear updates from you and I can't wait for I can't be for others to hear your episode

and really just I know that so many people will relate to you so thank you so much you're the best thank you girls oh do you see do you see what I mean about the the sense of community. That sense of community is ultimately like what she said gave her the most comfort.

And I just strength. It's so powerful. That sense of community, which is what we ultimately did not realize we would be providing here. And apparently we have. And so many of you have told us that. And so many of you have told stories that are very similar to Claire's. And this is just, oh my gosh.

So this story, one thing that really struck me is the whole state. at home mom thing, right? So financially, she felt powerless. Like, you can't leave. Like, you have no money. Where are you going to go? You know what I mean? And I think that that's very, very common. I don't know what it is for, it's different for everyone. But it just, it sucks that there is that powerlessness. And that breaks my freaking heart. I can't stand it. Yeah. I want to hear from other stay at home moms because it's a full time job. It's an important job. It's an amazing job. And I think obviously there's the element of preparing for the worst case scenario, like if for whatever reason you had to leave. But also the empowerment of feeling that independence, even when you don't need it, I think makes a difference for people.

But I want to hear how people manage to do it. I would just want to know, like, what is your sense of like obviously when you marry someone, you don't have an intention of divorcing them. but do you just feel safe and just be like, oh, well, if we have to get a divorce, like everything's fine? What is your peace of mind in that? Do you have a nest egg? Do you set something aside? What is your safety in that situation?

If something were to go south, if you're a stay-at-home mom, I would like to know more about, like, what your thoughts are on that. And if you're just like, nope, I just trust him fully and that's it. I don't know. It'd be interesting to know more about that for you guys. Finances, like money obviously makes the world go right. But there are other sources of currency as well, such as community, such as having those people that you can go to to help you. And if that's what it is, then that's what it is. Like, in her case,

that church community is what came to her door. And you just need something. I also want to talk about what she said with gaslighting children in the way that she kind of, I wrote down, gaslighting kids erodes their intuition. The way she talked about, that in the way she unfortunately witnessed this shithead deny his kids' experience. They would say that they saw something and they would be there when he was being abusive and then he would say, no, I wasn't. No, I wasn't. And now, yeah, how much harder is it for a child who, they see everything. They pick up on everything. Their intuition is better than ours. Yes. Just starting so young to deny that. It just broke my heart. And you're

mom so you can speak to it even more. I can't imagine. Well, just my son is 10 and I know that sometimes when I say something, if I say something that is wrong or inaccurate, he'll be like, wait, mommy, that's not how that movie went or that's not how that movie entered. That's not how this, he'll say and he'll question you and he'll look at you and be like, wait, because he knows. But then if I turn around and say, nope, it didn't happen that way and you tell them enough time. No, you're just a kid. I'm a grown up. Exactly. You are, your feelings don't matter. Like that's not. And then so going forward, they question everything going forward because they're like, I'm just a kid.

Maybe that really didn't happen. And you're basically crippling this sense of like this. Trust. Yeah, this trust that they have in themselves, their intuition. But like we said in a previous episode, you cannot break intuition. You cannot break it. And the kids, they still ultimately they know, but it's a mind game. It's just harder to hear it.

Yeah. It's like you have intuition. You have a gut feeling. You have femptuation. Whether or not you trust yourself is the thing that people can get in the way of. Yeah. And that's so hard. That's what we're trying to keep people from doing.

Especially with the kid. It just breaks my heart that it was, he was. Also, he could all of this so he could have this polygamist relationship. Yeah. What is that? What is it with these people? Well, it's the same, like people want to, people cheat all the time, but they don't want to leave their spouse, right? You hear all the time, like, he won't.

leave his wife, he won't leave his wife, because he wants you, but he also doesn't want to lose his relationship like that. He wants it both. They want it both ways. And that's just not something that's really like they never end up leaving the relationship because that's their comfort, but they also want the little extra on the side. The fact that it was her, the best friend, living under their roof, she was dressing up like her friend, the wife. Oh, so gross and weird. She wanted to be just like her. She wanted to take over her role. It blows my mind.

And the way he, I said this to her, just using the Bible against her, using religion against her to satisfy his own needs. I think anyone who is religious would recognize that as being manipulative. And obviously, it's disgusting. It is. Well, there's interpretation, right? Like there's so many interpretations. about different scriptures about all the scriptures, right?

Sure, sure, sure. So there's interpretation, but then there's manipulating the words to fit your narrative, which is a totally different, like, I don't know. Especially to use it in a form of abuse like this. You know, he was abusing her emotionally and, you know, taking advantage of her gaslighting her. It was all of it. What we did wasn't a sin because we had a marriage ceremony. No, I cannot.

made me throw up in my mouth. What a gross. What is your definition of sin, sir? Like, if you want to pretend to have this ceremony, like, just, it's not, you know what I mean? Like, if that's, if that's what you're going by, so then we're all, like, I'm, I'm just going to say I had a ceremony to. Yeah, let's do it right now.

Yeah, right. Molly, get a lease in here. We'll get you guys married right now. Yeah, quick fast and in a hurry. Like, well, let's get it done. It's just, it's so stupid. I can't with this. This guy's an idiot.

Molly got engaged. I don't think we really mentioned that. I keep bringing it up on any call. But now I've had a lot of calls with her, so I forget that it's new to people. But Molly got engaged. It's really exciting. Love is real.

Molly got engaged. We're so happy for her and Elise. And it's the best thing ever. And follow us on Instagram because you can see her crying in a restaurant. Over oysters. And then my favorite part was then when she showed the screenshot of the friend going. So I guess you're not going to game night. And I'm like, no, oysters are an average easy act.

Nobody's going to game night. Yeah, game night is postponed. Yeah, I will not be a game night. I'll be playing my own games. We love that. We love that. And I mean, it's a weird transition, but it kind of is special. Love is real when you find the right person.

And I hope that Claire does. I just want to reiterate that the sense of community that ultimately helped this woman more than any, goes to show you that when you share your story, when you use your voice, when you come together for someone else and when you start, when we start working together instead of against one another, you form a sense of community that you don't realize that people are going to need that. So if you are just one person, but you inspire other people to come together as well, now you're forming a community. But even just one person can help to form a community just by being there for someone else.

And that's what I want to just say louder is be that community for someone. And these guests sharing their story on the podcast, they are ultimately creating a sense of community for all the people that are maybe listening and going, oh my gosh, like, I can't believe it. Like that's me. Me too. Yeah, exactly. Well, I was also. Thank you so much like you guys for sharing all your stories.

Just one more small thing that she said that I think is important where she talked about not wanting to reach out to her friend's family community because she was embarrassed by him, that feeling of like, oh, I don't want to say what he did in case it gets better. And then all my family will hate him. I don't know. I think if you see something say something, I think we have to have our backwards. And we have to. Yeah, we just have to. I would be in a relationship with someone. And if someone cheated on me or did something really bad that I knew I'd never get back with them, I know myself and I know that I would have a bleeding heart and I'd be like, it's okay because I love you or And if I said it out loud to my mom, like, oh, he didn't say this guy.

As soon as I say it out loud, I can't take him back because then I look like a dickhead. Like literally, I bet other people are the same because I have that too where I was like, if I tell my mom this one thing, then you can't get back with them because then you'll look silly. Yeah. It's so real. If anyone is dealing with any issues in their relationships, our DMs are open. We try to talk to you as much as we can at Dating Detectives podcast. but we especially want to hear your stories.

Any dogfish story, friend, career, boy, girl, other, everything in between. We want all the different dogfish stories because we're here for you and they deserve a chance to be told. So email us, investigate at the datingdetectivespodcast.com. That's our email. Nailed it. Yeah. And put in the subject a little blurb about it and you can describe the story in bullet points even, but give some kind of summary.

in the email. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely do a summary. Listen, we need, we need help. We get so wrapped up. Like, we will go down your rabbit hole with you, but we need you to be like, no, no, girl, don't go down a rabbit hole. Just here's the summary because we will go down

the whole thing. And then before you know it, we're like three hours deep and I'm doing investigation and research before you even met this person. So like, just do a summary, please, because my brain will not stop. Yeah, help us, help us help you. Anything else that I missed?

No, just make you guys, you have to join the Patreon. Oh my gosh. Some of the stories that we share on the Patreon are, and also the updates on the Patreon for some of these, for some of these episodes. But just the things that we share on the Patreon, it's a little bit more laid back and super cool, none of the commercials and all that jazz. And when we have like our, when we have a merch drop or anything like that, and, you know, we like to give our Patreoners the option to,

you know, help us decide on like designs and things like that. It's really fun. It's a nice sense of community for anybody who needs it. That's what we're really proud of. But so is our podcast in general. So I think we're both really proud of it. And you guys cut out, but whatever you said,

I'm sure I'm proud of it too. No, I really know. Yeah, we really appreciate you guys. So join the Patreon. It's only $5 a month. And make sure you share your stories with us. Please don't ever think. oh, this story's not crazy enough or the story's not wild enough.

You're, if it's sitting in you and it's affecting you, then please let us be a voice for you. So don't like let us decide that we want to do everything we can to provide. I need to find. I haven't replied. Someone sent me their boat romance story where they had a romantic hookup on a boat a long time ago. And I haven't replied yet because you sent all of it and I wanted to really digest it and respond. But man, I felt like it was straight out of dipsy. That was really cute.

So you just wait for your reply, but just know that I like the romance stories too. We love you all. Thank you so much. Anyway. That's how what you think. Yes. And as always, trust your Femt tuition.