The Dating Detectives - The Funeral Freeloader

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

In this emotional episode of The Dating Detectives, Mackenzie and Hanna welcome Liv, a guest whose story is as heartbreaking as it is harrowing. Liv opens up about the devastating loss of her partner Andrew, navigating grief while raising their daughter, and how her vulnerability made her a target for Caleb—a man who seemed supportive but turned out to be a master manipulator.Trigger Warnings: This episode discusses grief, financial and emotional abuse, infidelity, and manipulation.Book Club Reminder: Join our Patreon book club to discuss Little Secrets by Jennifer Hillier on January 26th. Don’t forget—the book is a page-turner, so set aside time to binge-read before our live discussion!Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email [e-mail] or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Dipsea. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/ TDDThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by DeleteMe. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to join joindeleteme.com/tdd and use promo code TDD at checkout!This episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Paired. Head to PAIRED.COM/DATINGDETECTIVES to get a 7-day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription.***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-723 for support. Happy Monday, Slooties. Hi, Slooties. How's everybody doing? We hope you're doing great. I'm excited for, well, I always say I'm excited and then I feel like shit for saying that because it's never like exciting to talk about these stories. But I'm always excited to bring you another story because of how they always, I don't know, everybody's story always has an impact at least on one person. And so I I like that community. Also, you think you're going to get used to this stuff and you really do not.

I mean, this story has a lot of twists and turns, and I was shocked. Liv is our guest today. It's a one-parter. You're welcome. Bring it all in at one time. But, oh, she's been through so much. Yeah, you guys are going to love Olivia. There's a lot of warnings we want to give you.

There's murder, death, drugs, financial and physical abuse. There's children involved. Like custody stuff. Yeah, custody battle. And, you know, it's part of the... the story, so we don't want to cut it out, but we also try to, like, warn you guys a little bit. Yeah, just prepare. Little uncomfy in those areas. She's just been through a lot. We'll pass it on to live, but really quickly, book club, our Patreon book club is going to meet on January 26th.

The book was so good. I cannot wait. Oh, it's like, we read it in like a day. It's called Little Little Secrets by Jennifer Hillier. And most of you who have already read it are like, couldn't put it down. like warning, don't start reading it at a night where you have to wake up early the next day because you will stay up all night. Yeah, and you'll be like, wait, what? No. And you'll just keep reading it. So that one, I'm really excited to talk about that one. There's a lot, there's some, there's some, there's some, it kind of took me on a ride. I was like, wait, there's some things that I didn't expect. So I think it's going to be, it's a really good read. So, and then we'll come together for that on the 26th, which is next week. Yes, I believe it is. So,

you've got time this coming weekend you got time you'll read it fast but those are my announcements oh yeah and you guys don't for speaking of the patreon book club don't forget to join the patreon it's only five dollars a month and you get two bonus episodes of the dating detectives and it's just a great it's a great community and we do lives and just try to connect and you kind of have early access for merch and stuff like that so please join us on the patreon the it's in the link is in the show notes Shall we get to the story? Let's do it. Olivia, take us away. Tell us your story. We're excited to hear it. Thanks for being here. Well, I don't know if excited is right. Just tell us your story. Well, thank you very much for having me.

Of course. Thank you. Okay. So at 25, I was in school doing part-time administration work at a college. And I had received a large trust fund from. my late father's passing as he unfortunately died in 2010 of homicide. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, my. That's terrible. Oh, my. Yeah. Yeah. I had been in like an in and off relationship for about five years with a man named Andrew and he did end up becoming the father of our daughter. We both loved each other very much, but unfortunately it was a very complicated. relationship because he struggled with addiction. That's hard. That's hard enough.

Just on it, don't. That's hard. Totally. And then add a child into the equation. It was just so much more difficult to deal with. So sadly, Andrew was murdered in 2017.

Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. What? Yes. Thank you. I know. Two murders, one lifetime.

It is crazy. Murdered like. Oh, my God. like in the commission of another crime or just like yes oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so there's like i'm i just said oh my god like 1200 times because there's no words yeah it was definitely very shocking it was just devastating how old was your child she was little luckily so she wasn't able to really grasp necessarily what was happening and the fact that her her dad had passed so i'm grateful that she was small enough.

But at the same time, you lose all those memories. So I have to always communicate and share certain things with her. So we're able to kind of keep his legacy alive. So that she can kind of know him. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's a topic in our house every day. That must be so hard.

Oh, yeah, definitely. Like, I tell people all the time, dealing with death is one thing. But having to deal with death and trying to explain it to a child. And then especially when it's involving a parent that they never even got to know. Yeah, it's one of the most excruciating pains you will ever experience because you just want to take it away from them. But you can't, right? So yeah, after Andrew's passing, I was the last person who had seen him before his death. And I really struggled with the guilt afterwards of believing that if I had done something differently or if I had done something differently or if I had.

let him stay longer at my home than perhaps he wouldn't have gone to the store where he was murdered. So it was very, very hard for me to kind of cope with the five stages of grief and then on top of it feeling like I had some responsibility in it. And responsibility to your daughter. Like you have, that is unimaginable. For sure. And yeah, after. Andrew's tragic death, I was given a large sum of money again. So that was helpful in many ways, obviously with a little one and having to assist with moving and preparing ourselves for the next stages of our life. So yes, after he passed away, I had received a lump sum of money for myself and for my daughter and with that money, I decided to relocate to Andrew's home as obviously we were very

devastated and it was very comforting being able to be in his place. There was a lot of memories despite the complications in the relationship and a lot of positive memories in the home. So it was definitely comforting in a sense. And we were kind of able to get a fresh start because because so many people were asking questions and, you know, it was the same town we lived in. So I just wanted to kind of start new. So you moved to a, he lived in a different town? He did, yes. Okay.

And was your family nearby or his family or were you on your own? So his family was nearby. I'm still very close to them today, luckily. So it was really nice to have their support, but I didn't have much of my family support as we're kind of dispersed all over. So that part was kind of was kind of hard not having constant support every single day. But as I mentioned, like being back into the house was comforting for myself and for my daughter. So I had been aware that Andrew was sometimes involved with kind of shady business.

And a few things had been mentioned to me after his passing. So I had decided to look around the home to see if I could find anything. So after a few hours of searching the home, I ended up in our closet. And while I was looking on the floor, I noticed a pair of shoes. So I picked them up and they felt like quite heavy. And so I instantly became suspicious. And I lifted up the insul of his shoe. And I ended up finding $24,000.

Like in cash? Yeah, in cash. What kind of shoes were these? They were actually like shoe workboats. I'm imagining like platform stilettos. That's all I can think that would be able to fit. Yes. Wow.

I was very, very shocked. I definitely wondered like where it had came from. But at the same time, I was so grateful. I knew what a difference it would make in my life and our daughter's life. So I was, I was very, very, very happy. Yeah, like I want to know where this came from, but also like, don't ask no questions. Don't ask no questions. I know. I know. Tell nobody. Don't ask no questions. Let's just nobody knows. I actually didn't tell anybody. I didn't share it with his family, his friends, even my family. I really took it as a sign that I was supposed to find it and that he would want my daughter and myself to have it. It's for the baby. The less I knew, the better it was.

Yeah. I just try to like think that it was something positive. Yeah. Maybe he was saving it up from work. I'm not sure. But it was your birthday present. Yeah, a little present after he passed. So that was kind of nice and it made a big difference in our lives.

How long after he passed? Did you find that? I want to say like three weeks. Okay. Okay. So pretty soon. Okay. Yeah, it was three weeks after his funeral.

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teenage years. And we definitely became friends very quickly. Those conversations really helped me with my loss and my grief because I just began to confide in him more and more. And you had someone that got it, that understood it. Yeah, totally. And he had experienced loss as well in his life. So I really felt like heard, understood. And because he wasn't so close to my circle, I didn't feel any judgment. Because of course, like when you're around your ex-partner, partners, family, and you're like, I miss him so much. And I love him. And people are like, That was my son or that's my brother. Like your grief is underneath us.

Yep. It was very hard. And because we had complications in the relationship as well, I did get a little bit of judgment from family members. Oh. So it was nice having like a clean slate with somebody. I know what you're talking about though. Totally. You're like how can I show grief when his when I'm talking to his mom or his whatever.

Like, you know, and then it's like who who grieves him more. so I can see how that would be hard and why talking. And the complication of an relationship that's not as clearly defined. Yeah, yeah. You know, you can't just be like, that's my son. You're like, that was the father of my child and I used to love them, but I still love that. You know what I mean?

It just complicates it. That's tough. Totally. So like, yeah, after we had started to form a friendship with each other and I would confide in him, he would show acts of kindness. Like, he would send flowers or chocolates. He would buy small gifts for myself and for my daughter. And he would buy like the biggest teddy bears I had ever seen.

They were bigger than my little one at the time. And I just thought, wow, like here's this person who's being extremely thoughtful, very generous and, you know, was just reminding us that we have like a great support team behind us. So I didn't really think too much of it at the time. However, a little bit into our friendship, I had discovered through one of Andrew's mutual friends that Caleb and Andrew were actually arch enemies with each other growing up. What? No way.

Like when growing up? Like kindergarten or high school? No, like all throughout their teenage years, like into their early 20s. And he had not, Caleb had not mentioned this? Never, no. that I think that would be something worth mentioning yeah yeah definitely I can tell that this podcast is having an effect on me because at the beginning of this I was always like oh he's getting teddy bears he's getting you stuff and I just my reaction to that just now was like no way nope

too much nope I don't like it apparently it was so bad that they had even gotten into like several fist fights with each other okay so they're not friends so what gives so what happens then. Right. So I had broadened it up to him and he had said that their relationship was obviously throughout their teenage years and early 20s. That, you know, it was complicated, but their issues had been resolved for at least a few years. And that's why he attended his funeral. That's why they were friends on Facebook. So I thought, okay, fair enough. Like, when I look at my past, I've definitely had certain altercations with people, not physically, but verbally. And so I thought, you know what benefit the past be the past and move forward yeah and you had a complicated relationship

with him so in a way i could see you relating to him yeah i did i did for sure and so after maybe i want to say from the time that he passed up until the time that i began being friends with caleb it had been quite a few months since andrew's passing but it eventually turned romantic between myself and Caleb. That's common. So Caleb became like a form of comfort for me and my daughter, but at the same time, while I'm starting to experience these new emotions of being excited when he calls or being excited to see him. Yeah, like I was all the sudden just flooded with the feeling of guilt and judgment and concern. How long had it been since he passed that you started the relationship with Caleb? It had been about seven months. Okay. So that's it. You're, at that time, you're like, you know,

you want that love still. You're still human. Yeah. No, I know. But his family and his close friends, they definitely didn't see it as that. She had always spoken so highly of me despite our complicated relationship. And I truly believe that he thought that we were going to be together for the rest of our lives. So I felt like I was held to the standard with everybody. And though I did love him and I did care about him so much and his passing was so tragic, it devastated me and took a piece of my heart. I will never get back. I still was very realistic about the issues that we had in our relationship and how I had felt that, you know, the potential of finding somebody new was a very real thing for me and I knew it was going to

happen. I just didn't expect it to happen kind of so soon. Right. And you never, know when that's going to happen. Like, you know what I mean? It's so hard. How could you ever know that? Right. And I feel like our interactions, Caleb and myself were very genuine. I, I didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong. Like I had mentioned, there was quite a lot of people reaching out to me to give their condolences or check in males and females. So I didn't really suspect, you know, that I was going to start feeling romantic emotions for them. Yeah. I think it's normal to bond in a, you know, grief. Yeah. They say. Yeah. And Andrew's family had also counted on me for, you know, support. And obviously, my child was a huge part of kind of coping with their grief. Because that's a part of their boy.

Yeah. And his only child, right? So that was difficult. So I decided that I was going to have to keep it very quiet. Obviously, I didn't know exactly where things were going to lead to. But I just knew, that I didn't want to hurt them. No, no, I didn't want to hurt them at all. So keeping it quiet and being more reserved about everything. So we fast forward a few weeks and I had gotten Caleb some Christmas gifts because Christmas was approaching and he was very, very, very excited. And so before Christmas had come, he had mentioned to me on like several different occasions how badly he had wanted this. gold cross penant. And I thought, you know, we're so new into our relationship. Like, he's been so wonderful to my daughter and to myself. Like, why not splurge and purchase this expensive piece of

jewelry for him? So I think he was kind of anticipating that I was going to get that for him for Christmas. So when I told him Christmas Day, like, hey, I got a few gifts for you. I really want to exchange presents. He was so overly excited. He had actually showed up at my door on Christmas night and he had left his family's party to exchange gifts with me quickly. Oh, I love gifts.

I love presents. Yeah, did you feel like that was really cute or did you clock it as like, you're really excited? I was really excited. I thought, well, like, this is just showing his commitment to me. Yeah, he wanted to be with you.

Yeah, like, I can only imagine his family, like, wait, where are you going? Like, what do you mean you're heading over there? So it definitely showed me that he wanted to be a part of it and I was happy because it was my first Christmas without Andrew. His family didn't want to celebrate Christmas. So it was kind of like a dim and dark kind of day for me. So it definitely brightened it up quite a bit.

Yeah. And it was actually an hour and a half drive for him to come and see me in Montreal. So that was another part to it. It wasn't like a quick, you know, 15 minutes. So he had actually gotten me like a toaster and a t-shirt from his motorcycle. club since he was in one. Oh, that's cute. Yeah, and like teddy bears and flowers and chocolates and I just felt just so much happiness, just so much happiness. It was nice after grieving for so long to just have something to look forward to and to know that I was thought of so much for him to go

and pick up all these things, like a toaster. I mean, but sometimes, that's like the best present. Was he, was that something that you mentioned you needed and he was just like, oh, I got this? No, to be honest, he had stayed over for one night when I didn't have my daughter. And he was like, oh, I tried making breakfast, but you have the worst toaster I've ever seen. Oh, that's so cute. So he's like, here's a new toaster. That's available. So he got me a new toaster. So I definitely appreciated it. And then he quickly left. He was like, I got to go back to my family's Christmas. I'll see you later. I was like, okay, like, hi-bye.

Oh, I thought he was going to spend the night. No, it was maybe like 20 minutes and that was it. He was out the door. And it takes hours to get there, like an hour? Yeah. It was like an hour and a half drive. I understood because I come from a big Italian family and I could only imagine like those families are they're like, you got to be together. Yeah. So I was like, no way, you need to go celebrate with your family. They have no idea what's going on. Like we were both keeping it quiet. So I understood. I didn't think it was such a big deal. So New Year's comes, obviously, after Christmas, and he had told me that he was unable to celebrate New Year's with me because his motorcycle club was sewing a very large party at the clubhouse. And obviously, I couldn't attend with my child being so small. Right. And he was like, you know what, I'm going to call you at midnight, made all these promises, made me feel super comfortable. and I didn't hear from him at 12 o'clock. No, really? No, that's not so good.

I don't like it. I was definitely disappointed. I had all these thoughts going through my mind because, again, like, I'm just starting to see him. I don't, you know, know the ins and outs of who he is or how he acts when he's being social. So I was definitely a little bit concerned, but then I was trying to be realistic and think to myself, like, okay, he's probably drank too much or he's having such a great time. like maybe the service isn't working. I made every excuse in the box to try to not be mad at him. After what you've been through, I'd be worried about, you know, is he okay?

Yeah. Well, that's another aspect is that I did have a lot of anxiety with many things. And so I just knew he would be smart enough not to drink and drive. But he did end up messaging me the next day saying that he drank so much and he just wasn't able to call their message. Okay. That's attractive. I don't like it. I don't like it. No, no, I definitely had a feeling in the pit of my stomach that it wasn't good. And the following days, he was short with me. It went from like talking all day long, whether it be phone calls or text messages to suddenly it was like one or two messages or one or two phone calls. So I knew something was going on. Okay, so gut instinct in that moment, what is going on? I had really thought that he had hooked up with somebody possibly on New Year's. Like that was my first thought.

Okay. Yeah. And he was like feeling guilty and pushing you away kind of thing. Yeah. But then like all the effort he was making and all the things that he was doing. It didn't make sense. No way. Like he knows what I've been through.

Like right. I'm just being silly. Like, you know, sometimes throughout relationships you get a little toxic yourself. So I'm like maybe I'm overreacting. But always trust your gut instinct. Your fintuition. So after New Year's, I began to look on Instagram to see if I could find any post from Caleb on New Year's. That's our type of girl.

I know. I did a deep dive. I like it. So I had been looking around on Instagram trying to find some things. And I had found like a few photos of him celebrating New Year's, but nothing that was concerning or out of the norm. and eventually I end up finding a photo of a girl's post and on the back of her bedroom wall was framed photos of her and Caleb. Oh no, he got a girlfriend.

Yeah. Who is this girl? Well, I didn't know at the time. I had recognized her from like obviously his social media, but I didn't know necessarily who she was or her relations to him. I just knew she had a picture of my boyfriend, several pictures hanging on her bedroom wall. That better be her brother. Right. So I began looking through comments on his pictures and really like checking every like I went a little delulu. Well, I went to do. We don't we don't think you did. We're right there with you. It's not

called delulu. It's called due diligence. It's called research. Well, and I had just lost Andrew, and the thought of being heartbroken again was so worrisome to me that I just wanted to protect myself. So unfortunately, I ended up finding out that there was three other girls that had posts all the same gifts that he had gone me for Christmas on their social media platforms. They got toasters too? Yeah.

What? What? So we're talking the same teddy bears, the same orchid flowers, like everything to a T, the same T-shirt. He bought four of each. He got it in bulk. He went to Costco. Wait.

So he, all these people were posting it too. And was he like commenting on it or tagged in it? Did he have any kind of stealth? No, he wasn't tagged. He liked everything. And he didn't make any comments. I ended up finding out that some of the girls were in actual relationships and some of them we're single. Wait, in relationships with him? No, like with somebody else. Yeah. Oh my God.

I was just devastated, obviously. I felt like this whirlwind of emotions just once again come over me where I was like, how could I have done this to myself? Like, you know, oh my goodness, like this is not good. How could I be so dumb? Like, how could I not see this? Right. So I decided obviously to confront him. And he had said, like, the one girl that he was in the photos with, she and him had been in a relationship, and he had actually ended it before he had gotten involved with me. So she must have not taken the photos down off of the wall. And I thought, okay, like, that kind of makes sense. Like, if they did split up, you know, sometimes people just want to hold on to things. So I thought, okay, no biggie.

But I was a little bit agitated that he was obviously with her at news. years. So I felt super uncomfortable. And then he had been honest and said, listen, like I was seeing the three other girls on and off. You and I were not in a committed relationship at the time. Like, we weren't official official. Like, I didn't want to come forward and be open and honest with Andrew's family. I didn't want to post it on Facebook or Instagram because I was trying to protect those I loved. And your daughter's involved. Like, there's so many reasons to take it slow. And right. I know.

So I obviously decided to stop talking to him because I just, I knew deep down that it was a bad decision. And I just couldn't go through with it. So we did stop talking for about two months roughly. How did he respond to your breaking it off with him? He was like cool as a cucumber. Like he wasn't that phased. He was just like, I think they're overreacting. Like, I'm being honest with you.

Okay, fella. Yeah. I hate that. Okay. This year was a big year for fantasy and smut for Hannah. I was really in that era for me. And it was newer and I loved it. I did read a court of thorns of roses.

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choice. Like, you don't have an excuse. Like, why wouldn't you do that? When you go to D-I-P-S-E-A-S-E-A-S-A-S-T-D-D, Dipsy Stories.com slash TDD and have fun. Wink wink, wink. So two months later, we were both attending the same event and he knew I was going to be there and he had purchased a large bouquet of flowers and had a whole apology prepared for me. Of course, he did. So I did end up forgiving him and he had asked me to spend Valentine's Day together. He said that he had deleted the girls off of his social media and that he,

had no plans on having any conversations with them. So I said, okay, I will spend Valentine's Day with you. Let's do this. Let's move forward. So his excuse was, well, we weren't official or we weren't whatever, like we were whatever, but now he's setting an expectation like, okay, they're gone now. Right. And like he was fully committed to me at that point. Like he said, like we were officially together. We're not going to have any confusion here. Yeah, the confusion is gone. Okay. Right. Typical man, overlap of communication. Like, I could make that excuse. Right. So, yeah, two months later, I end up getting a pregnancy test and missed a period and found out I was actually expecting. Wow. Oh, wow. It was quite the surprise. And how long had you guys been together at that point? It had been just under a year. Okay.

Wow. And you've been with you. this guy like a couple months on and off. Yeah, we were just approaching the one-year mark, and I was shocked. I was obviously not planning on having a baby. The first thought that went through my head was, oh, my goodness, like, how is Andrews family going to cope and deal with this news? They're going to be sad and be like, how could you replace him so quickly, blah, blah, blah. Definitely.

And I even felt that way myself. Like, I was way too soon. way too quick. And I wasn't in the right state of mind either. Like, I was still dealing so much with grief despite being with Caleb. So you felt guilty? I did. A hundred percent. I did. But I had had a conversation with Caleb and he was very happy. He did not want me to abort the baby. And I didn't want to either because I had just experienced a loss with Andrew. And it was very difficult for me and Andrew and I had always talked about having a boy and in my heart I just knew I was going to have a son and I knew that Andrew was going to send me a little boy so I had all these thoughts and

emotions running through my head and at the time Caleb and I were living in separate houses so I was in Montreal and he was out of town and I was thinking like how was all of this going to work, but we're going to have to plan, obviously, to move in with each other after the baby's born. So that was kind of my thought process on everything. And around, I don't want to say, four months of being pregnant, I had traveled to his house, and I ended up finding sex toys in his closet. And I was obviously very shocked. Wait, like what was shocking about sex toys? We had never used them. Were they not yours? No. We had never used them. Oh, they were like couples toys? Yes. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So there was like lube and just a whole bunch of items in the closet that

struck me very odd that he'd have them like so out in the open if they were something that he had used with his exes. So I was obviously very confused. Oh, okay. It's as if they had been used recently. Yeah. So I had confronted him and he was like, they're all old. Like, I just need to throw them out. Like, please don't get upside. You're going to stress out the baby. Like, this is nothing. Don't overreact. And I was like... That feels manipulative to say you're going to stress out the baby. Right. So I was like, okay, he's like, I'm going to throw them out right in front of you. Like, don't worry about it. So I was like, okay, it sounds good. But again, I had that feeling in the pit of my stomach. But I just decided to ignore it because what was I going to do, right? And he was

making an effort to rectify it. And he was. He really, and like, if you had seen him in person, like, the look on his face and the way he was comforting me and, like, you know, he was physically touching me and, like, reassuring me. I just, I really did believe him despite having that icky feeling. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So obviously, I was concerned about what was going on, and I decided to check his closet a few weeks later to see if there was anything that was left or I could find any kind of clues. And I ended up finding a Valentine's Day card from a girl. Like a recent one? Yes. And it read, I wouldn't want to spend Valentine's Day with anyone else, not even my husband. Yes. And it was signed, I love you, Grace.

Wait, oh my gosh. So he's like full on a fair city. Wait, wasn't he with you on Valentine's Day? Yes. So how did he spend Valentine's Day with Grace? My assumption is that he must have celebrated Valentine's Day with me, and then it either happened that night or the day after. Maybe they made their own because she had to be with her husband, so they probably did like a February 16th or something and made their own Valentine's. Right, definitely.

That's horrid. I was absolutely hysterical. Like, absolutely hysterical. It wasn't even pregnancy, emotions. I just was beside myself. And I'm thinking, oh my goodness, like you said, when did this happen? Who is she? She has a husband. Like, what do you mean? So I instantly took the card and I confronted Caleb immediately. And I was like, what is this? And he's like, I broke things off with her. She's an ex-girlfriend. There was actually more girls that I was talking to prior to being with you.

So, like, add her into the group. And I was like, oh, my goodness. we're just grandfathering these girls into this way. He's like, what's, what's, what's one or two more? What's one or two more? It's fine. So he had said because she had a husband and because things were complicated, he didn't want to pursue anything. So she was kind of still holding on to, I guess, the hopes that they would be together. But because she didn't have him on social media and they had no contact,

she didn't know that he was moving on and he was happy. So like this was just a. a one off and she had mailed it to the house. Why didn't you throw it out then? Why don't you tell you about it then? If my boyfriend gets a card from an ex, I'd like him to let me know, you know? But they did spend Valentine's, didn't it say they spent Valentine's Day together? Yes, yes.

And I had asked him, he denied. He was like, no, I was with you Valentine's Day. There was no way. So, of course, my mind is all over the place. I'm thinking, okay, you know, what time did he leave my house? Like, giving at text messages. Now you're, yeah, you're counting backwards the timeline. And when I had looked back at our call log and text messages, there was like a five-hour

period that I hadn't heard from him or talk to him. And you were like, that's got to be it. So I was obviously just like, okay, he had to have been with her. Like, who just sends a card like that to an ex-boyfriend? Nobody. It had been months, right? So I definitely found that highly suspicious. And I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.

Like in my head, I was just like. I can't, there's red flags going off, there has been red flags going off, but here I am pregnant with a baby. I have my daughter who has now met him, been around him. Did they get along? They did. They really did. They were awesome with each other. And I think that he brought her a lot of comfort, because as I had mentioned, she wasn't able to really grasp what was going on. And he would sing like Little Mermaid with her and again, just like painter nails and hang out. He was so sweet with her. That would piss me off knowing that he's lying to you. Like, oh. I know, because he's lying to both of you. I know. It was, it was just devastating. And I'm thinking, well, what am I going to do now, though?

Because Andrews family knows that I'm pregnant. Everybody knows that I'm pregnant. And there was a lot of people that were supportive of me moving on. And then there was a lot of people who weren't supportive of me moving on. And I'm thinking, I'm going to prove everybody right right now if I end things here. So I decided to swallow my pride and just continue to move forward because it felt like it was the only option I had at the time. Yeah. And you felt like you'd feel like a failure probably, I imagine. Yeah. Yeah, like I'm thinking, like, what does Andrew think of me at this point, you know, like it was a lot. And I think a lot of people, you know, when they set the narrative, the whole situation, they think, like, oh, well, her partner passed away. She moved on. She got

pregnant. And I was still, even in the happiest moments of my relationship, I was still in so much grief. Like, I used to spray his sweater, Andrew's sweater with his cologne and dance in the living room to our song when no one was there. Like I was just devastated. So I didn't want to prove everybody right. If you are in a relationship, then you know we're going to tell you that communication is one of the best ways that you can save yourself from not only dogfish, but also just heartbreak in general. That's why I'm very excited that we are doing ads with paired. It's an app that I've loved for a while and it's for couples who want to strengthen their relationship. It was founded on the simple belief that lasting love is a daily practice.

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Head to pared.com slash dating detectives to get a seven-day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription. Just head to P-A-I-R-E-D dot com slash dating detectives to sign up today. Things did pick up. Things did get better. Like, we were both the happiest. We both had been when my son was born. So it did end up being a boy.

Oh, you got your boy. I did. I did. And I was just over the moon. And I really, really felt like Andrew. presence was around me. And so I was very, very happy. But, you know, we were still living separately at the time. And, you know, it was a lot to deal with going kind of back and forth all the time. Yeah. How did that, I'm just imagining raising a newborn going like a living long distance.

Yeah. How often would he stay at your house and like, connect? So another red flag. He wasn't staying at my house very often. He often. He often. and blamed the little time that he spent on his motorcycle club. So he'd be like, oh, I have a function to go to or I have, you know, a ride that I have to do. I can't miss it. I'm sorry. And he would just come and like spend the day with us. And he didn't financially pay for anything. Like no diapers. Wait, what did he do for work? Did he work? Yeah. So he had been working and then he was not working. So he was kind of in and out of jobs, and I was just trying to be super supportive because he was trying to change what he was doing. He wanted to make more money.

He seemed very motivated. He wanted to make more money to quit his job? Yeah. Yeah. And he actually didn't have a working vehicle. Oh, no. Yeah. So I had to go back and forth and commute.

Wait, was it a motorcycle club or like a bicycle club? club. No, like a motorcycle club. So can you ride his bike? Oh, he had his bike. Yeah. He had his bike, but... You can't put a baby on a bike, but he could still come to you. Well, the thing was, is that another thing I should have realized is that he said to me that he felt more comfortable at his house because his bed was more comfortable. He just overall liked being at his home rather than mine. Oh, I'm sorry, Rachel having an infant sitting on your spine from the inside. I don't like it at all, but even if that is going to work for a couple, you got to financially contribute.

Like, you can't just be like you're on your own. Yeah, for sure. And he didn't. And I was so proud that I was able to afford everything on my own that I didn't even really want his help. But family members and friends were kind of like, isn't this kind of concerning to you that he doesn't want to put forth any effort towards his son? and I mean, I had thought the same thing.

But you're trying to raise your kids. Like it makes sense that all of the, even these thoughts come up, just so you know, I'm sure, I hope you know. But most guests, if not all guests, go through moments of like, yeah, I knew all these things, but there were so many other things going on in my life and there were great moments with them. Like the podcast cuts those out. Yeah, totally. Because we can't fit your whole relationship into an hour. But it's so real that there's so many reasons why you.

stay, why you ignore whatever it is. Like, there's no shame at all. And again, like, I just, I couldn't bring myself to, I guess, come to the realization that a lot of people were right about things that were going on because I didn't want to deal with the judgment and didn't want to deal with the truth of the matter. So I just wanted to kind of be oblivious in this like happy stage I was in, being a new mom again, new life, new relationship. So I just kind of ignored all the red flags that were going off. So things were going okay, despite those few hiccups. And I'm from a big Italian family. And Caleb always took interest in like my family's traditions and things of that sorts. And so he had asked me a lot about my family and

my trust fund and started asking a little bit more questions. Oh, nilly. Yeah. And so I had actually shared with him that any granddaughter in my family would get a large lump sum of money. We call it a Busta. And it's generally from like $20,000 to $30,000 in my family. So Caleb was definitely kind of like, wow, like that's a lot of money. That's super interesting. And I was just like, yeah, but I'm thinking, okay, he doesn't really know my family that well. He's not Italian himself.

He's not from a big family. So these questions, like, aren't warranted for any kind of concern. And a few weeks later, Caleb proposed to me. Oh, of course he did. Yeah, he proposed to me. And he was very interested in the whole money aspect of planning the wedding, how much we would get, you know, how many family members were going to come, how much money they paid for their plates. Like, it became a huge topic of discussion with us. And again, we weren't living together at the time.

and I'm raising our son separately from him. So I was in a more better financial situation than he was. And I think he always knew that deep down. And so there was lots of times that he asked me if I would financially help him. With things like his house or things like the wedding. So while we're planning a wedding, he would mention to me that a certain bill needed to be paid. or he was short on money. He couldn't pay for his car insurance.

And again, he's between jobs. And I'm thinking, I'm starting to plan and prepare for this wedding. I'm paying a lot of the cost. You know, at the end of the day, we're planning on getting married. Why wouldn't I want to be supportive and help my partner? Yeah. He's going through this transition period. We're going to get married.

Of course I'm going to help you. So I thought, you know what? I'll help him out. We're going to be in a house soon together anyways. Might as well. So I started to pay for his car insurance, his internet bill, and occasionally I would pay for groceries at the same time. And his car actually had broken down again because he had gotten into an accident. So at this stage, now every single weekend, I am commuting back and forth from Montreal to his house.

so he was able to see us, see his son, and he didn't even have a crib at his house. What? He's waiting for you to buy one. Yeah. So I'm in Montreal. He's in Orms Town, and I have to take a bus and a train every weekend to be able to see him. With the babies? With the baby and my daughter.

Oh, my goodness. And he didn't want to take the bus or the train because he believed that it was beneath him. He couldn't be caught dead in public transit. Are you kidding me? No, no. And I'm thinking like here I am like with a stroller, a car seat, bags, suitcases to go to his house for the weekend. Like the whole shebang when you have a little one and a toddler. And I'm thinking it would just be so much easier if you could just come to my house and he just didn't want to. So that was very difficult. And you know, from the time that my son was born until I moved in with him, everything started to kind of go downhill. Like you started to manipulate me into paying, you know, $700 of his bills per month. And if I asked him for assistance with something for our sons, you know, like clothes or if I wanted to get him an exorcocer, he wasn't able to assist me in anything. He made a lot of excuses. And you're feeling how, you're just kind of treading water in a way. I was. I was totally treading water. And I thought to my

you know what, like he had shared with me in private discussions that he hadn't really come from a wholesome family. I'm thinking, you know, he was a child of divorce. Like, maybe he doesn't know how to function as a unit. You know, and I was trying to make excuses for him, but at the same time, I really did believe that there was like an underlining issue. And I knew he loved me. I knew he loved our son and my daughter. But that effort just wasn't being put forth. And I was so confused. used why I was doing everything. And I really started to take a downslide with my friends and family because people were not happy with his behavior, the lack of effort. They saw me struggling. And I was very overwhelmed. And even at one point, Andrew's family had started to kind of turn away

from me temporarily because they were like, we're not happy that you're doing this to yourself. Like there are causes for concern. Did they know that he just wasn't good? that everybody had told me, like, my nun, no, which is my grandfather, my siblings, like, everybody had told me we don't have a good feeling about him. Oh, that's hard to hear. Yeah. And it was all around the time of, like, well, Caleb never was friends with Andrew. Like, just from the get-go, everybody was like, something's off. But then it's like, are they saying this just because they don't want me to move on too quickly because it's hurtful to them? Or are they saying this because they genuinely have concern for me? You know, like. I was very defensive. Like I remember saying like, you've never been put in this situation and you don't know what this feels like. Yeah, totally. It was just so much to cope and deal with in such a short amount of time that I really felt like no one was paying attention to my cries for help.

But I did it so quietly and I didn't want people to be worried about me. I just wanted to move on and be happy rather than sitting in my grief. And it just got worse. Unfortunately, Caleb's dad ended up passing away in the house that we were going to move into. And I just, I will never forget hearing Caleb cry for his dad, like just saying dad. And I've lost my dad, obviously, right? And so I'm thinking, oh, my God. How hard that must have been for you both. Like, it really was. He was just devastated. So that was really, really, really hard.

And we were just trying to cope with the loss of his dad. And then 23 days later, my little sister died. What? Yeah. Liv! Yeah. Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. How did she die?

She passed away from heart failure. Oh, bless it. Yeah. And we were just like a few months out from my wedding too. So it was all these losses were before the wedding. And both of us are trying to cope with these significant losses in our life. And it was very hard to maintain our relationship. And also like we're, we're supposed to be excited. We're planning to get married. And you're grieving your own losses and then trying to be there for each other grieving their losses that, oh my God.

Did you feel bonded or did you feel like it was tumultuous between you? I definitely felt bonded for sure. And I felt like I was really able to help Caleb because I had lost my dad. And so I know what it's like to lose a parent. And I really felt like I was able to help him. We planned his funeral. We were very involved in everything. And I know he was super appreciative at my sister's funeral. He treated me like gold. I wouldn't have been able to have gotten through that day without him. Honestly, he made such a huge difference. So I definitely feel very lucky, but at the same time as time went on, it started to be like, well, I lost my dad. And I'd be like, well, I lost my sister. And I became a tug of war of who was grieving worse because I still had to carry on with all my duties. Right.

So, but yeah, we lost two loved ones. It was devastating. And they were included in our wedding, which was nice. We made sure to pay tribute to them. And we were just trying to make the best out of a really crappy situation. And Caleb was very detached at the wedding. He actually spent the entire night in the bathroom. So he had missed like speeches, the first course of our dinner. And I was just like, I've had enough. Like, where is he? What is going on? People were noticing that I was just sitting at our head. And we had a beautiful, beautiful wedding. like luxurious, beautiful wedding. And I'm just up there out by myself

and this beautiful, beautiful white dress. And I'm thinking, okay, like, I've got to go get my husband. So I approach the bathrooms, and there's this, the biggest guy I've ever seen. Like, just, like, we're talking, like, six foot seven, standing in front of the door, and he's like, you can't come in. And I was like, excuse me, but do you know who I am? Like, I'm coming in that bathroom.

Like, look at the dress. Yeah, let me in. So I pushed him out of the way. And I caught Caleb doing cocaine with his motorcycle club members. And so I was obviously, again, in total shock. I had never seen him partaking. Yeah, this wasn't something you did. Okay.

No, I'd never seen him partaking in cocaine. Like, I mean, I'd seen him drink some beers and stuff like that, but never. That's not the same thing. Yeah. So I was very upset. But again, I'm like, what am I going to do? We're surrounded by friends and family. we just said our marriage vows, you know, like, this isn't the time, this isn't the place,

and like we'll just have to have this conversation later, but like he knew I was very upset. So he had actually said to me, like, I have a surprise for you, come outside. And I was like, oh, great, where are we going? So we get outside and I see this huge motorcycle. What? No, shut up. Shut up. Yeah.

Shut up. We're done. We're done here. The episode's over. done. I'm like, what the heck is this? Like, whose motorcycle is this? And he's like, it's mine. No. Where to get? No. Yeah. And so I was like, I'm looking at, like, there was, and we had a very large wedding, but I want to say at least like 60 to 80 club members were surrounded me. And I'm in the middle of some motorcycle and Caleb. So I'm trying to like smile and not put on this like negative

argument in front of everybody who just watched us take our vows. And I said, I'm like, how are you, how are you paying for this? Because you could tell, like, it was very, very expensive. It had custom artwork done on it. Like, I knew. I love that he introduced it as a surprise, like, for you. I know. I mean, it could have gotten me like a sports card. No, it's something for him. Or like some lingerie. That's what you said. You know what I mean? Yeah. So he had said to me, I thought we would just use the money that your family's giving us for the wedding. I'm sorry, what? Wait, so who's paying for the wedding that you're currently at, sir?

Yeah. So keep in mind, I had paid for a majority of the wedding. My family had contributed to it, and then they also were giving us this boost. So he's like, yeah, I bought it from one of my friends. Like, I'm going to need to pay him within the next week or two. I'm going to, oh, yeah. Nope. Yeah.

Nope. So I was angry. Between the drugs, the motorcycle, his behavior that night. Like, I honestly, we had our first dance and that was it. I don't even remember dancing with him, celebrating. Like, I was just so angry. And when we got back to our hotel room, you know, like I've always believed in the tradition. I'm Catholic.

Like, you sleep with your spouse on your wedding night. You celebrate and he refused to sleep with me. And instead, he wanted, yeah, he. He wanted to count the hundreds, hundreds of envelopes from our wedding for the money that we both received. That's disgusting. And I was devastated. I just remember sitting on the foot of the bed. Because you want to spend time with your new husband and he wants to know how much money y'all got.

I was just thinking, like, is he even going to stay in the room tonight? Is he going to go out and, like, frolic with everybody? Like, this can't be happening. No way. So he had actually opened up one of the envelopes, and it happened to me, one of the envelopes. envelopes were my grandparents, my non-no and nana. And they had written a note saying that they were only giving Caleb and I $10,000 at night and that they would give us, yeah,

the separate $20,000 at another time. And yeah, my grandfather, like my non-no decided very early on in a relationship that he wasn't a huge fan of Caleb. Oh, everybody wasn't. Yeah, he saw his red flags. So I knew in that moment that obviously he had reservations when it came to like the financial aspect of our relationship and he wanted to be protective. So he got into a huge fight with me. He was just absolutely enraged that my family would be so disrespectful. And I'm sitting there thinking,

buddy, you just bought a $30,000 motorcycle. Our money is going towards that. Like how can you be upset? It just like doesn't make any sense. So. After the wedding, I was just like overwhelmed with this feeling of I made the biggest mistake of my life. Uh-huh. Yeah. I just started reflecting on everything that was happening, all my choices, and I just didn't know how to cope. I was so concerned for a relationship. And people had asked me and family members, I remember before the wedding had said to me, like, do you want to leave?

Like, do you not want to do this? And I'm thinking, what? Like, what are you talking about? They knew. And through reflecting, like, I realized through all these moments, you know, how concerning his behavior was. Like, he had said to me, like, I can't believe your family didn't contribute enough for the wedding.

He had even gotten, like, a lockbox safe. And he decided to lock up thousands of dollars that we had remaining from the wedding after he paid for the bike and some other things. And I was allowed to- What? You weren't allowed. I was going to say, did he let you in it? No, I'm sure he did not.

No, I was not allowed to have any access to it. So this is getting into like financial abuse. Yeah, I was not allowed to have any access because my family apparently didn't contribute enough. And my grandfather, my don't know, hadn't given us the remainder of the $20,000. He didn't feel like I was entitled to it. So I'd actually have to like Jimmy rig and like screw open the safe. So I was able to pull out like some $20 bills because I was. I was responsible for paying, you know, the groceries. You had to steal from yourself. I did.

Yeah. I did. And where is he all day? Like, where is he going during the day? So at this point, like, he was working. What was he doing? He was just doing, like, landscape kind of work or, like, renovations. So I was home.

And, again, I'm paying for so many bills and necessities for the home. And he was just contributing towards our... rent at the time. And it wasn't even very much, to be honest. And I was just like, this is terrible that I'm literally having to do this. In my own home, I don't have access to the money. It was always a tug-a-war fight between the both of us of who was paying more, who's contributing more, he goes to work, he's tired. It quickly just worsened over time with Caleb. And we had actually gotten into a really bad argument with each other over money like two weeks after our wedding and he grabbed me by the back of my head and had actually thrust me for and smashed my face off

the dashboard. What? Yeah. And by the grace of God, I actually was not that hurt. Like I thought for sure my nose was probably broken. And I just remember in the moment, yeah, like just being like, what like what do I? What do I do? Like, I couldn't. Was that the first time? he had ever physically abused you? It was the first time, yeah, he had ever put his hands on me. And I look back and think to myself, like, what could I have done differently? And you try to meddle with yourself. And I'm like, there's nothing I could have done. I was being as respectful as I could while having an argument about money. And he's screaming in my face. And I did not deserve to be treated that way. So that was devastating. I instantly thought, like, how do I get an annulment? What do I do? How do I buy myself some time, save up some money.

now that he's taken everything from me. I didn't want to go to my family because again, like here I am meeting somebody after Andrew's passing, having a baby, getting married, and then not even two weeks later saying to everybody, I made a huge mistake. He's physically assaulted me now. What I need to leave. Like I just knew the shame that it would bring, especially being in an Italian family. They take your name so seriously. And I didn't want to bring that shame to my family, so I stayed quiet. Yeah. Like, it's been interesting hearing you talk about the ways many people throughout this story have criticized or judged you in a way that if they were worried about your well-being, they made it worse in a way by pushing you away.

I was really hard. My sister was the only person who was very supportive, but even throughout the time, it was difficult for her to stand by my side and answer my phone calls because it went from being phone calls of like happy and like updating her about my day and just having sister chats to now every time she answers the phone she's scared that I'm hurt I'm in a fight or something bad has happened she said every time her phone rang at night she would just feel sick to her stomach and be scared like something was seriously wrong because we started to see right after the wedding within two weeks a lot of aggression come out of him a lot of arguments and I was just so emotional.

Again, I'm still battling the loss of losing my little sister. He's dealing with the loss of his dad. And even in those moments, I was trying so hard not to make excuses for him. But there was times where it came through my mind of, you know, he had just lost his dad. Like maybe he's just not coping well. Maybe he needs to want antidepressants.

Like, yeah, this isn't him. This is just temporary. Yeah. And he had been, despite all the red flags, You know, we keep looking back at all the positive moments rather than the negative moments. So I wasn't being realistic. And two weeks after our wedding, Caleb got into a near-death car accident. My goodness.

On his motorcycle, on his new motorcycle? No. And his truck, I don't know how he had survived truly. He had a brain bleed, broken bones, a broken hip, like just a whole bunch of things. He couldn't walk. he couldn't function, use the washroom. And so I'm like, oh my goodness, despite everything that had just gone on, I'm thinking, I need to be supportive of my husband. Like, again, I almost just lost somebody that I care about and that I love. Yeah. You know, I have to just be here for him.

And this was during COVID. So a lot of surgeries were delayed at the time. Mm-hmm. So you're a full-on caretaker, I imagine. Yeah. So Caleb had to come home. again, couldn't properly walk and function. So I had to not only take care of the children, the house, animals, but I also had to take care of him. A system was showering, going to the washroom, everything. I just fully deep dived into being a wife and he would essentially just watch movies all day in bed. He became very miserable during his recovery, very, very verbally abusive with me, just constant put-downs. He didn't want to spend any time with myself and the kids, so that was extremely challenging because I'm feeling like I'm getting nothing out of this

even more. Yeah. And he wasn't able to work. So again, here I am financially paying for everything. While he literally still had at the time, because again, it had only been two weeks, all this money put away and hiding in the safe, but I couldn't have any access to it after his accident. So it was very difficult. Very, very, very difficult after his accident and I hadn't been intimate with him since before the wedding. What? Yeah. So his recovery was like roughly five months and we were not physical with each other. So there's like basically no connection other than you being everything to him. And paying the bills. And paying the bills. So I was frustrated when I knew. It was not only just affecting me, but now it was affecting the kids.

But again, like, now there's COVID. No one's really moving. There's all these restrictions that are going on in Montreal. Like, what do I do? How is my family going to react to? I'm leaving my husband who just had a near-death experience as much as they disliked Caleb. You're going to look like the most insensitive person in the world. Yeah, there was no winning.

I was stuck with him. I was stuck with him. the time I had no vehicle. We only had his. So I had spent so much money of my own money on our wedding. And I knew I was just going to have to cope and deal with my situation. And, you know, he was on his phone a lot. Obviously, he, you know, was bedbound. But he was always on his phone. And I just felt so uncomfortable with the fact that he didn't want to spend any family time. you know, we weren't having any kind of physical relations with each other. And he was just decided.

I needed to look through his phone and figure out what's going on. So I end up coming across a porn site. And he was just like, yeah, listen, like, it's spam. Like, don't worry about it. And I was just like, I don't understand. Like, you don't want to be physical with me, but you're watching porn. You're watching things on a porn site. Like, it's just not making sense.

And I have needs as a person as well. And they're not being met. You're not even making any effort. Like, even in regards to giving me a kiss, I would have to pull teeth to get that. And it was very difficult. And he was very dismissive. I just knew something was off. Something was not right. And a few months later, he just started to act very differently. I got into more fights with him. We were having no sexual relations with each other. It honestly seemed like I was just a ghost. that walked around the house. Like, he did not care about me in any sense or form. Wow. Not even as a mother to the kids. Like, I was essentially nothing. Exactly.

So, yeah, one day before Christmas, he decided he was going to go Christmas shopping. And at this point, like, he was somewhat mobile and moving. And I said, okay, no worries. I'm thinking, like, this is nice. Maybe he's going to go out and buy us a whole bunch of stuff. Like, he's going to try to be a better person for Christmas. Like, I'm just grab. gasping at straws at this point.

Okay. And so he ends up putting on his best clothes and jewelry and he gets back and he's like kissing everybody on the cheek and hugging everybody. And he seems like in a really great mood. So we're like, wow, like let's hold on to this because he is never in a good mood anymore. And he went to the bathroom and he was like, oh, I just need to get rid of like, you know, some Christmas gifts. They won't see like, blah, blah, blah, just stay out.

So I was like, okay, you know, he's trying to hide my present. But I heard the shower go on. And I thought, hmm, like, that doesn't make sense at all. And I was like, okay, like, I need to once again take this into my own hands and figure out what's going on because. The math thing. Yeah, I just, I couldn't deal with anything else popping up happening, being made aware of something. I was very much struggling day to day with just waking up and getting out of bed. And I knew I needed to be proactive. So he was sleeping one night and I was so scared. I just remember my heart pounding as I crawled onto the floor.

And thank goodness our room was carpeted. And I crawled over and I got his phone. I took off the phone case and I left the phone case on the nightstand. and Caleb was passed right out and I quickly ran out of the room into the spare room and I started doing a deep dive of his phone and I couldn't find anything. And I'm thinking, okay, like you're really paranoid. Like there's nothing on here, Liv. Like, what do you do it? And finally, I decided to go on Google, like, Chrome instead of Safari. And I find this, like, classified as and so of course I click it and it's this whole thread of conversations with people that he had hooked up with and like pictures.

And I'm thinking what the heck is going on now? Like, oh my goodness. So while I'm looking through these messages absolutely just destroyed, I discovered that whenever, you know, he was saying he was going to the club house for the motorcycle club or the store. Oh my God, the motorcycle boys. Yeah, he was actually seeing this woman down the street from me for months. So I ended up finding these messages. Not only do I see, like, again, you know, that he's looking at porn, that he's engaging in these odd conversations. But yeah, he was talking to a woman. Wait, on what? Can you, do you remember what he was talking to her? Like, what app or whatever?

It was, I forget what it was called, to be honest. But, it was something weird yeah and I just it literally opened up all of their messages I had all the information she was 21 years old and she lived right down the street from us oh no so it was oh my god I just remember like my ears starting to ring and getting extremely hot and the room started to spin like I was just like this this can't be happening like I had no understanding or even thought that, yeah, that he would go outside of our marriage and partake and cheating on me physically. Well, I've been caring for him, paying for everything. I just was like, this can't be happening. It was just devastating. And he was romantically involved with this woman. And he was saying, you know, he, he couldn't stop thinking about her, that he was saving himself, like, sexually for her.

So hearing him, like, not having. an engagement with my husband. And he's just like holding on to it for another woman. So she actually lived with her parents. Yeah, she lived with her parents. And so Caleb would actually need to sneak into her home. Wait, how old was Caleb at this point? How old are you guys?

So Caleb at that time was 39. Oh, so he was a lot older than you. Yeah, he was older than me yet. But 21 and 39. Like, I mean, I get it. It's an age difference and a big thing, but like it's still, it speaks to the, you're a grownup now. Like, I don't know. Yeah, we know what he was looking for.

Yeah. He was a 39. I was just, like, again, it just like you're sitting there and you're thinking, what don't I have? Like, I've literally tried to give him everything, like this 21-year-old who lives with her parents. I just, like, I don't understand. All I've ever tried to do is be a good wife and being a loving mother. I've put so much on the line for this guy and I just couldn't understand.

It was absolutely devastating. So I obviously decided to confront him. I was... Did you wake his ass up out of a dead sleep? What did we do? Oh, I did. I was so angry. He was sleeping peacefully.

I whipped the phone at him and I was hysterical. Like, I meant business. I had no fear of what he would do to me. I was more scared of what I was. more scared of what I would do to him. And yeah, he just said, this is a robotic system. This isn't a real person. These messages, like, this is just some things that guys can do.

It's a robot. Yeah. Like, just kidding, like, playing with Barbie dolls, kind of. Yeah. It's just this, like, weird, sexual, yeah, chat site that I was not aware of. Like, I saw the pictures sent on both ends. Like, I was well aware. And I knew there was no.

manipulating me. I was well aware. At that point, I was just so done. And he begged me for, you know, forgiveness. He pleaded with me. And again, this is during COVID. So I really didn't have the choice to go and stay with family. Where are you going to go? Yep. I had no choice. Yeah, but to stay. I just became this like shell of a human being at this point. Like I was just like, what have I done? I was so angry with myself. And I remember just praying to Andrew and being like, oh my God, like, please help me. Like, please don't hate me. I just felt so much. It was just, I felt so embarrassed. I felt just like I had done something so wrong. I can imagine that. So, you know, I was just like, okay, I'm going to have to figure out what I do from here.

and actually messaged and reached out to the 21-year-old that he was speaking to. And after him and I kind of were like, okay, like, I'm going to stay. Because again, I didn't want him to know what I was doing. I wanted to make sure I had my financial situation set up. I was trying to save money. And I was sleeping in a different room. And when I found out that he was still in contact with her, and I'm trying to make this effort to put on a good face in front of the kids,

into him and collect myself, I was just like, what a piece of shit. Like, I just, I can't believe it. And she told me, like, he's planning on leaving you. And I was like, he's planning on leaving me. With what funds, sir? Yeah. And at this point, I had spent on an crazy, a large sum of money on this man. Like, we're talking, like, a lot of money I had spent.

and I'm walking away potentially from this relationship in shambles with any money in my pocket. He just literally took everything I had, emotionally, mentally, physically, and just financially, just drained me completely. And so a week after I found out about his affair, he told me that he wanted a divorce. And he wanted me to move out, which again, like I was planning in private, but he said that he was in love. And I'm thinking, okay, like, obviously is the girl. And I thought, okay, you know, he's going to pursue a relationship with her since they've been having this affair over the several months. And he said, I'm in love with this girl named Julia. I'm thinking, Julia.

What are you talking about? Julia, Julia. Golia. Where's Grace? The girl's name was Grace, right? So I'm thinking, Who's Julia? Yeah, I was so confused,

and I found out that it was actually his best friend's wife. Oh, what? We, I can't predict a single thing about this dang story. No, twisty tourney. Did you know her? Oh, I knew her. Oh, yeah, she had, and her husband had attended our wedding. When did they start their thingy?

It had been going on for apparently a very long time, but I don't necessarily have the full details of it. I just know that he was confiding in her and getting her support through a lot of things. That's how it gets started. Emotional. Yes. Okay. And it's his best friend's wife. And they were together a long time. They actually had children, her and her husband. So she had planned on leaving her husband, moving out of the house, taking her kids, they were going to get a place together, raise her children, be happy. And I'm thinking, I'm trying to cope with the fact that he just cheated on me with this girl Grace who's 21. And now all of a sudden it's like this bombs dropped on me where it's like

you want to be in a relationship with Julia. And I just remember feeling just in total shock. I almost had no feelings. But I was thinking she held her newborn son. Like she came up. up to me and help fix the back of my train on my dress on our wedding day. Like, disgusting. How could she possibly do this to me? Like, I can't believe that there's children involved on both ends. And I was just devastated. So, yeah, a year later, he served me with divorce papers.

Wait, where did you go? I ended up moving. I ended up packing my bags during COVID. And I left with the kids. and he wanted Julia to be a part of our son's life almost immediately. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's cute. There was no waiting period for, you know, time for the kids to adjust and for myself to adjust or just to heal a little bit.

He instantly just jumped into this full-blown relationship with her. Also, he wasn't even really part of their lives recently. Like, no, he wasn't. And it was all of a sudden? Yeah, it was very hard for my son. to not feel that love and just engagement from his dad on a daily basis while we were living with him. And then all of a sudden, like, now dad's putting on this show of he loves you so much and let me show you how to ride a bicycle. And this woman's watching and I'm having to stand there, putting on a good face, being mature.

It was very difficult. So I did end up moving out. The kids and I got a great head start. And my family was so supportive. And on Andrew's fifth anniversary of his death, he served me with divorce papers. Ew. Did he? No, it was purposely done.

Yeah, it was purposely done. But it gets better. He also decided that he was going to be proposing to Julia that night. So. Because they have to make everything about them. They can't let you move on. They have to ruin your good moments, your bad moments. Everything has to be about them.

And, yeah, they're still. engaged four years later. And yeah, we're all still legally. Why? What's taken so long? He's just, I guess, too preoccupied with finding job that he just can't sign the papers. Well, actually, in all fairness, he gave me the divorce papers and he didn't print off enough like of the paperwork. He was missing a whole bunch of things. And I had signed only two sheets and I knew something was odd about this. And I'm thinking, this doesn't make sense. And it was going to be a very basic divorce because of how much money he had taken from me. There was really nothing. So, which is gross. I had found out from several people that he was having affairs with them all throughout

the time that we had been together on several different occasions. So I found out that the Valentine's Day card from the girl that was given to Caleb, she did in fact sleep with him on Valentine's Day. So that was confirmed. Yeah, they had spent like two days together with one another celebrating. So it wasn't just a mailed card, which I think deep down I kind of knew. But again, I was so stuck in the situation. He had also slept with several girls at the clubhouse during his motorcycle events and things of that sort. So that was hard news to get as well. Yeah, that's scary.

That's awful. Yeah. And I was worried, obviously, about like, STDs and things of that sort. I was very, very concerned. I felt like he put me at risk. risk so many times. And so I was very frustrated and it wasn't until someone had actually sent me a voice note of Caleb and he was at the clubhouse and I listened to it after we had split and he was actually bragging about how much money my family had right after we met. And I listened to this

whole voice note and it was actually a member of his motorcycle club who had let me listen to it because he was having some issues with Caleb himself. And I just remember thinking, this was all just a big setup. Like, he knew exactly what he was doing. He knew how to get to me. Wait, do they know who killed Andrew? We do, yeah. So we do know who killed Andrew. And it wasn't this fella? No. Oh, okay. No, no. But yeah, it just like even more came to light that they weren't even like, again, you know, had a few hiccups throughout their teenage years. Like, they were. not friends. They were just like, I guess, mutual on social media. Because Andrew knew too that he was no good. Well, yeah. And like when I look back at, you know,

Andrew's social media, there's a family picture of us on one of our trips. And Caleb had messaged and had written like, what a beautiful family, like what I'd give for that one day. And it just like chills up your spine, you know, of like, what was this? Like, you know, was this genuine or was it not? And it just, I really felt like as much as he came into my life as, you know, this shining light at the beginning. Like, he was just so dark in the end. I didn't even know who he was. He ended up getting, like, kicked out of the motorcycle club for doing drugs. And I guess, Wow. Sounds like you have to do a lot of drugs to get kicked out of the motorcycle club. Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, definitely. Definitely. And Andrew's mom and I had actually had a discussion after

Caleb and I split up and she had told me that Andrew had a scar on the back of his head and I remember it. It was a pretty deep scar and that was actually caused by Caleb. He had hit him in the back of the head with a flashlight at a party. What? A what? No wonder his family was so upset about it, but I do wish that they hadn't pushed you away, you know? Yeah. And she had just said, you know, like I didn't want to share it with you because despite like how much you, loved my son and I obviously knew that. Like I wanted you to be happy and my granddaughter be happy. And if this was going to be it, she didn't want to taint that.

Yeah, she didn't. And she's honestly the sweetest woman in the entire world. We are so close. She's like become my mother. I'm very grateful, very lucky that we've been able to kind of get over every poor decision I have made with that relationship and move forward. And she is just a rock star. She really is.

Like, she just supports me in every way, shape, or form, loves me for who I am. So I know that Andrew's looking down, smiling. We actually had an incident take place with Caleb a little while ago, and she was a force to be reckoned with that woman. She once again supported me. Yeah, I was, so we're obviously co-parenting Caleb and I, and he's moved in with Julia now, you know, having a happy family with her. and I try to get along with Julia like the best I can despite everything.

And I'm my son's primary residence. And we actually have like a final court agreement that states that, you know, Caleb needs to return him after his parenting time is done on the weekends, every other weekend. And he's never really respected our final order. Like he's always breached it and I've just had to kind of deal with it, which is very frustrating. There's only so much fighting you can.

I know, I know. And you can't go back to court for every small thing that happens either. So, yeah, he ended up taking my son in December and it was raining. And he was like, listen, I can't bring him home. I know he's supposed to be back tonight. He's supposed to go to school. But it's like, you know, worrisome conditions. I was, I do mind if I keep him? And I was like, at first I said yes. And then I was, I texted him. I was like, no, like, I think you should just bring him home, please. Like, I just, I didn't have a good feeling. Yeah. And he said he's not coming home. home. I said, what do you mean? He's not coming home. Like, he has to go to school. Like, where, where are you? And he's like, I feel like you're mentally unstable and I'm concerned

to have our son around you. Yep. And I was just like, oh my God. Like, I just, I panicked so badly. It was like, I would have relived all, like, three deaths all over again if I could have. If I had just had my son back in my arms in that moment, like I was just. devastated and he said that him and Julia were keeping our little guy and he had even went so far to even contact the school and say that our son wasn't going to return to school anymore. I'm sorry, what? I actually had to get up, go to court. I didn't have any money to represent myself with a lawyer, so I had to represent myself. Wait, your family didn't give you money to help you? No, I honestly, after everything that's happened, I was like, I, I,

I'm going to stick it to him. And I'm going to do it on my own. And I'm going to show him what a strong independent woman I am. I did so much research about the court system. And I was like, I got this. And I did. Like, I remember the clerk telling me, I have never seen a person self-represented, get rights back to their children and have a police and force expertise motion with the sheriff's department on a doorstep so quickly. Wow. And so my, my, My son got working around. I was not. And I was very proud. And one woman actually even like said, oh, I think you should work here. I was going to say, you go to law school? Thank you. I did not. But, you know, maybe this is something I should get into. But I got him back and I was so happy. How long were you without them?

Five days. It felt honestly like two weeks. I didn't sleep. I didn't eat. I couldn't even function. So he got his visitations back. It was supposed to be the first weekend our son had to see Caleb. And he actually canceled that first weekend because it didn't work for him and Julia. Of course. So it was the second weekend and our son went to his house and the front door gets kicked in, SWAT burst through the house apparently. And he ends up getting arrested in front of not only my son, our son.

And Julia's kids. Wait, for what? What's going on? So he had actually was involved in a robbery where $630,000 worth of stuff was stolen. What? Yes, like large pieces of stuff. And so, yeah. I'm dead.

I'm tired. I'm dying. I'm dying. Right? So I'm thinking, like, how much worse can this possibly get? But it gets better than that. So I didn't even know this had taken place or happened, keep in my. I end up getting a phone call from Children's Aid Society.

And they were like, you know, do you have so-and-so back, my son? And I'm like, no. And I'm like, why are you calling me? Like, what is happening? They're like, did someone not tell you that your ex-husband was arrested? Oh. And I'm like, no. Where is my child?

Yeah. And so Julia had actually lied to me and said, like, there was a snowstorm and a power outage and she wasn't able to like get back because she couldn't get out of the driveway. And I'm thinking, where's Caleb that he can't shovel or use a snow blower for the driveway? This doesn't make sense. And then I was obviously very panicked, but she was thinking, oh, you know, if I don't say anything and keep him for these two days, you know, Liv isn't going to know that Caleb got arrested. She can't use it in her court case. So she actually had him for two days. He had no contact with me. obviously terrified. His dad had gotten hurt in the arrest. So yeah, he actually got three and a half

years in prison. What? Yep. Three and a half years, which he was looking at much, much, much longer than that. And he didn't talk to our son for a total of six months because he thought I tipped off the police. So he, okay. Punishes the son, even if that was true, but still, that's horrible. When did his sentence start? It actually just started not that long ago. She's like last Monday. So you're free for a little bit. The terrible thing is, is in Canada, a lot of inmates will be released from prison early.

So he probably won't even do that long. Unfortunately, our jails are overcrowded here in our justice system is ridiculous. But, yeah, he thought I tipped off the police, so he wanted nothing to do with our son for, a large amount of time. And then, yeah, I ended up, like, talking to Julia on the phone after all this went down. She did apologize to me for withholding my son. And she was like, I was in a total panic. And in all fairness, like, I was mad. I wanted to stick it to her. But I heard that same voice that I used to have. And I almost felt sympathetic for her. You felt sorry for her. Yeah. And so she had actually told me that she had given.

given Caleb over $10,000 to start like a landscaping business. And you were like, oh, man, she was in my shoes. Been there. Yeah, she was paying for a majority of bills as well. Like the same verbal abuse was on and off going on. She had actually told me a bunch of information. And I'm not the type of person where it made me feel good. Like, it's like, I told you so.

I didn't want to stick it to her. No, it's like he just keeps going. Yeah. I just, he keeps finding women who are in. positions where once again, like, they're either naive or they're easily like a target. Yeah. Well, I think also the question of like, yeah, he's good at what he does, but so much of your initial relationship with him was your grieving and taking advantage of that.

Like, do you think this, it's interesting that she was in a different position. Like he could do this to anybody, but I do feel like that is a huge part of how it was. for you. I don't know. Like, do you think that he really targeted you because of that? And I don't know. How do you move on from that? You feel like you were targeted? Oh, yeah. I believe now that like in some way, this was his last betrayal towards Andrew. I believe that he is so sinister and narcissistic and sick minded that he felt like, huh, like I got the last laughed after all these years and all the information I had found out, he got his family, he got his woman, his daughter, you know, he took over over $60,000 from me in

our whole entire relationship. You know, he saw me as vulnerable and naive and group struck in and he knew exactly what to do, how to make me feel special. He manipulated those red flags going off and I was just so fragile the entire time. Yeah. He was just terrible to deal with in so many, so many ways. Definitely took advantage of me in every word of the form. And I'm still trying to recover. I'm still trying to heal all the money from Andrew and from my dad is gone now.

Oh, I'm so sorry. There's nothing left of their legacy, like that you can say, oh, this is from, Yeah, nothing. And I've literally been so frightened to be in another relationship after experiencing this because it just, it frightens me. And I've had to do therapy and all these things to try to better myself and heal from this traumatic incident. And again, dealing with all the grief. So, yeah, I think I'm going to stay single for quite a while. And I think that's okay. You don't have to. You know what? I'm embracing it. I don't mind the single era. I love being in a relationship, a healthy one, of course, but at the same time, I really like the independence I have and I feel very proud of supporting my family. And I've made new friends and I just, I like who I am today. I have no stress. If I want to eat cake at 3 a.m., I can. Like, you know, I don't have to stress and worry, but Caleb has never taken any kind of accountability for his actions. There's never been like any kind of apology. And honestly,

I don't need one and I don't expect it. And I don't expect it. I just, I really pray and hope that there's not going to be more victims to come. I obviously wish Julia the best. But I mean, she's fully aware of everything. And it's still chosen to be in a relationship. So we'll have to see what happens. You know, I've said to myself and my friends and even Andrews, family, my children, I want to take this time to focus primarily on raising my beautiful children. And I know one day in God's time, like, I will find somebody who will be worth the weight and prioritizing my kids are going to show them like how powerful. Yeah, their mama is like, we don't always need a man, you know?

Like there are so many successful, strong women who are not in relationships. and I think we need to embrace it more as a society. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I always say you never know when your story can impact someone else. And I feel like someone's going to listen to you and be like, I have a Caleb. Oh my God. Like this is, you know, I've experienced grief.

Right. Yes. I think I understand your insecurity, but I'm very confident that people will reach out. Yeah. And we're all human at the end of the day, right? We're all human. So, well, thank you guys so much. Thank you so much.

We're so grateful that you, I just think it's always, it's just so brave and courageous. And for going what you, that's just so much for one person to go through. And just to share it, I know that must have been difficult. So thank you so much. Well, I'm happy to share it with you guys. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. And if I'm able to help, even just one person, it means a world to me. Oh, okay.

So there's a little bit to unpack here. I had to take a laugh. Are you pissed? I'm angry. Like it made me really mad. The narcissism, the audacity of this guy. No, he is malicious. I can't imagine anything else. No, he is rotten. Just the idea of praying on somebody who maybe you're getting revenge on their dead, like, X who's your what, high school nemesis? It does, like, I don't know how your brain work. Oh, so gross. And I just, I feel like, can we talk about that for a minute about being vulnerable and how people prey on unmet needs? That's something that we've talked about a lot since we had a trafficking expert on our show. And it really opened our eyes because she said that a lot of these predators prey on unmet needs. And that's why when we're vulnerable, like in this case, Liv lost her baby daddy. Like this was her guy. Like, you know, she loved him. She was mourning. She was dealing with grief. Yep. She was grieving. She was morning. And so here Caleb comes and she sees him as, you know, she wanted to find love again. But also it made her feel like it was a gift from Andrew. And he knew that she was vulnerable. He prayed on that. And in that situation, in that vulnerability, you are more susceptible to, I think, being prayed upon. And he took full advantage of that. I'm so mad at him. Well, I'm not an expert, but isn't it true that in like, don't they say that if you get out of rehab or something, you're not supposed to make any big life decisions for like a year. There's some kind of you got to focus inward. Well, yeah, and psychologically, you're just still, any time of big life

event that leaves you vulnerable, that leaves you different or changed. I'm not saying that you can't try to connect with people, but I also just think you have to be on the lookout and try to be aware. And I also think that I wish our world prioritized friendships as much as we prioritize romance, because- Yes, that's so important. Yeah, of course, after a death or after a trauma, you are seeking connection. And I just wish it was like easier to put that energy into friendship so that it could fulfill a lot of that unmet need. So that's a good transition because we can talk about how her friends and family reacted to her relationship with Caleb. Oh yeah. And we've talked about it a lot too. Like they I don't. Now obviously it's hard when you're in a situation. So we're not one to say,

oh, they should have done X, Y, Z because we're, every situation is different. That's actually what we don't want to do. That's what we're going to talk about. Exactly. We don't, but I just, it's so obvious that when you come at a person with judgment about their choices, it kind of pushes them away more than helps them, in my opinion. What do you think about how they responded? Well, I think the most important thing to do for someone when they're going through something is, like you said, don't shove it in their Facebook. You need to leave. Like, they're not an idiot. They know if someone And they're not going to listen. Yeah. If someone's being abused, they know they're being abused. They're not stupid. Like the victims of abuse are not stupid. They sometimes find it difficult to leave for the

circumstances or whatever, but they're not stupid. And so if you continue to say, hey, I'm here for you, I'm here for you. And you show that consistency over and over. I'm here for you. I see what you're going through and I'm here for you. When you're ready, I'm here for you. Yeah, when you're ready, that's what it is. When you're ready. So you're creating this environment, you're creating a safety net. And the bigger, the more times you say, I'm here for you, I'm here for you, I'm here for you. I'm here for you, you're just basically, like they can, in the back of their head, they're taking those little seeds and they're creating this huge safety net. So the more you say it, the more consistent you are with, I'm here for you, I'm here for you. They know over time that when they are ready,

they're going to know that they have a safe place to land. And that could be you. But if you say, oh, you need to leave. That's so stupid. Blah, blah, blah. Like, you don't think they want to. Like, you don't think that, you know what I mean? You don't think it's crossed their mind probably, but they don't feel either strong enough or don't feel like they can or the circumstances don't allow or whatever, the best thing you can do is just say, I'm here for you and be so supportive of where they're at. I think some people also, especially if it's like parents or family members, worry about being enablers. They think that if they aren't reprimanding this person for being with someone they don't approve of, then they're not being a good friend or something. And I get that,

but just hear us next time you're like, well, I have to hold them accountable. Like, I would want them to do it to me, just remember that you might be holding them accountable by just letting them come to it on their own. Right. It just, like, historically just doesn't work to be like, you're dumb. You're putting yourself in this bad position. And you should stop. Right there is when you say you shouldn't be doing this because then they're like, no, duh. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, of course. Or it makes them think, oh, yeah, maybe I am dumb. Maybe I shouldn't value myself, you know? The more you hear that, no matter how smart you are, it gets to you. Yeah, it's like telling someone to move out of their house. That's easy,

easy to say it. Like your house is crap move out of it. And they're like, well, where am I going to go? But if you're just saying, hey, you're doing a great job. And meanwhile, on the side, you're building a house for them, building a house for them. And you see that you're building this house. Then when they go, oh, man, I really need to leave this relationship. And they've, they've seen that you're building this house. They know that you're building this house for them. Now they feel safe leaving because they know they have somewhere safe to go. So you just keep, you just keep building that house for them and letting them see, hey, I'm building this house you got a safe place when you need it. And that's what we can be. And in Liv's case, I just

feel like she didn't get the support that would have been, you know, I think really helpful for her the grandfather holding some of his, the money that he promised her. That was an interesting point because it didn't go well. Like obviously, Caleb responded violently, basically. Right. Yeah. And Caleb was mad about it. Right. And I get, I mean, it was a, obviously, was not bad because in the long run she had that money saved for her, which I did want to bring up. It made me think of something, a phrase that I heard recently from another podcast. The host is named Tori Dunlap, and on its social media, she's her first 100K. It's all about like finance and support for women primarily. And she talks about something called a fuck off fund earmuffs for the kids. Sorry, I should have

said that. A fuck off fund. And it's like everyone should have a fuck off fund in case you need to fuck right off. Yep. And like, just think of that. It's a safety net. Yeah, it's a safety net, but I like the phrase fuck off fun. So shout out to her first one on your day. Well, alliteration is always really fun.

So we, I really like that a lot. A fuck off fun. And it's like you can have the most stable, wonderful position in the world, but just have it. You never know. Yeah. You never know when you're giving that fuck off fun. I know.

And she ended up when she was trying to leave. It was like, she was like getting herself together. I was like, oh, she's building her fuck off fun. Got to do it. Wait, what else? There was more, oh, yeah, the financial abuse of, like, hiding her money and not letting her habit. Yeah, like how that, like, really, you put it in a box that I don't have access.

You can F right off. You know what I mean? Who does this guy think he is? He kind of, like, built up to that point, too. It's like he wasn't the way, he wasn't abusive until she was in really deep. And that's the other thing. you just mentioned something that made me think of like the why people don't leave question. Once you face the truth, you blow up so much of your life for both yourself and your children.

Yeah. It's not as easy as just like, oh, let me get the kids and go and start over. It's like, let me go just move to go to another house and then we're okay. Everything's fine. It's not that easy. And she did a good job of sharing how difficult it was. Let us know what you guys think. I'm certain this is not.

there's going to be so many people who say, oh my gosh, I had an ex-who or my ex-girlfriend did this or my ex-boyfriend did that, and so many people are going to relate to this. So we're proud of you, Olivia, for sharing your story. And we're just, we're grateful for you. Oh, also people who have experienced grief, but I know it is common for people to connect with mutual friends of the person that was lost or somebody that came in as a support system in the period of grief. He was nasty the way he did. Yeah, he was now. But I know it can work. So I'm like, I wonder if there are people who could talk about like how they experienced a relationship like that without, maybe without rushing into it or like what can you do to allow yourself to open up to a relationship when you're vulnerable without without being so vulnerable that you get easily dogfished or whatever. Either way, either way, it's never your fault regardless of the situation. If someone dogfishes you like it's never your fault it's not you're not stupid and it's not your fault you didn't deserve it and that's just the bottom line like period yeah email us if you have a story that you'd like to share

on the podcast if we can be an ear for you or if you just have a story that you send in that maybe it's not a full episode maybe it's just a patreon episode make sure you email us at investigate at the dating detectives podcast.com and don't don't forget to listen to our sister's show the Medical detectives, so good. It's so good. I cried listening to the latest episode, but it's the first episode they've done with the guest. Kathy was the guest. I'm excited to hear what y'all think.

Yeah, I think you'll really love it. So anyway, send us your stories and let us hear what you have to say. Way in on our socials. Please continue to share the dating detectives on your social because the more you share, the community just keeps growing and we're so proud of it. So let's keep it going. Let's keep it growing. Hey, keep it going, keep it growing.

She's a rapper now. That's what she said. Yeah! Okay, cut us off. Okay. You ought to get cut off. As always. As always, trust your intuition.